EP. 148 - Michael Bamberger

Author of The Second Life of Tiger Woods, Michael Bamberger, steps into The Clubhouse with Shane Bacon to share what the process of writing the book entailed, and to reflect on Tiger's 2019 Masters victory. Michael also discusses Tiger's accomplishments compared to Jack's, Kobe and Tiger similarities and his favorite golf books.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon, a production of
I Heart Radio Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon.
I am your host Shane Bacon in a fun one Today.
Michael Bamberger, author of The Second Life of Tiger Woods,
which came out yesterday, joins too simply discuss Tiger Woods.

(00:25):
What better during this time in human history than to
have a book come out about the most interesting golfer
maybe athlete in the last years. It's a It's a
great read. It takes you through not just the two
thousand nineteen masters, of course that would be in professional golf,

(00:46):
his second life, but takes you through simply Tiger is
a human being and what's been different over the last
two or three years versus how he was when he
came out as a professional, and all of the things
that have changed, all of the things that have played
into his life that have led to those changes. An
unbelievable read. I urge you to pick it up, order online,

(01:06):
or just get it on your Kindle or whatever device
you read on. I loved it, couldn't put it down,
knocked it out in a couple of days. I think
you will enjoy it as well, if you're a fan
of golf, which you probably are if you listening to
this podcast, and if you're a fan of Tiger Woods,
which maybe you are. If you're listening to this podcast,
you're gonna enjoy the book, So pick it up. Bamburger
was great. Always love chatting with them first time on
the podcast, and uh and yeah, we went a lot

(01:28):
longer than maybe I thought we would because we had
a lot to talk about. Hopefully you guys are staying
sane and keeping yourself safe and being smart during this
unreal time in our history. I know it's it's been.
There have been days that have been testing, there have
been days that have seemed to kind of roll by,
and all the while, we are, at least in my household,

(01:49):
trying to follow all the gold guidelines that have been
put out. And I hope you're doing the same thing.
Because we can get through this as a group, as
a society, as a country, as a world. I know
we can do it. I'm trying to stay positive. Hopefully
you are as well. One last thing for we get
to Michael, if you haven't checked out, get a grip.
That's my new. I guess new is news still fair?

(02:10):
To say my quota. I just did quote new I
did air quotes my new golf podcast with PJ Tour
winner Max Homa. Max and I have had now ten
episodes of Get a Grip. We try to do one
once a week. Of course, the early ones were a
little bit more current golf specific. The last few have
been a little bit more all over the place. But

(02:31):
we're trying to have some fun with it. We have
started to do read your Questions, and we have started
to do some lists like favorite nicknames in sports history
and and all of that. So we're trying to have
a little bit of fun and pass the time and
give people something to listen to. Of course, as Quarantine
continues on, that's enough for me. Let's get to Michael
and we welcome to the clubhouse for the first time.

(02:53):
Michael Bamberger, author of now Out The Second Life of
Tiger Woods. Of course, Michael the scene writery Golf Magazine
and golf dot Com, and Michael, I want to start
with this. They talk a lot about the smaller the ball,
the better the story. I've always felt the more famous
the person, the tougher the profile, because we know so

(03:15):
much about him. Why would you want to take on
a Tiger Woods profile a Tiger Woods book. That is
a great question. Uh. Gary Dematto uh, writing up the
book UH for one of the Wisconsin Golf or his
own Wisconsin Golf publication, said there have been millions of
words written about this guy? Do we really need eighty

(03:35):
five thousand more? And it was and it was funny
that he said that, because I've written a million words
about this guy, and I wondered myself if we need
eighty five thousand more? And I guess the answer is
there's a lot of differints to answer, but one concise
answer would be there was a very definitive biography. You
probably read a Shane uh that came out two years ago,

(03:56):
just called Tiger by Jeff Benedict and armed contained. It's
a really find book. Uh. And as a matter of fact,
I would say it's a starting point if you haven't
read any books about Tiger. Would say that book and
and the and the Haney book, to me would be
the first two books that I would read. But it's big.
But a lot has happened since that book came out,
and so this book really covers a two year period

(04:18):
in Tiger Woods. This life that is extraordinary on an
athletic level and on a human level. Well, that leads
to one of my next questions. You know you you
mentioned Haney the big miss. Of course, the Tiger book
that you reference first is a deep, deep dive into
everything you'd ever want to know and probably some stuff
maybe you don't about Tiger. When you decided to take

(04:39):
on this project, and I know you're a reader, I
know you obviously pay attention to that world. How many
Tiger books did you make sure that you had read
and finished before starting your project? Well? Zero, because uh,
you know, I read the Benedict book, and I read
the Haney book, and I've read some of the other books,
so you know, I'm well at air of what of

(05:01):
what they have. But once I started writing my own book,
and even started thinking about writing my own book, I
didn't pay occasion. I would definitely go back to the
Benedict Cataian book because they had so much information and
just be at the index. In terms of sitting down
and absorbing somebody else's take on Tiger, I didn't go
there at all because I didn't I didn't want it
in my head. So Tiger Woods, this is a guy

(05:24):
that has been in your life for the better part
of twenty years, if not longer, maybe twenty five years,
if you will, if maybe even into the early junior ams.
You know, when he was doing stuff we hadn't seen before.
The title of your book is the Second Life of
Tiger Woods. I feel like that could be taken in
so many different ways. I've I've watched Tiger's life changed

(05:46):
dramatically day to day, night tonight, headline to headline. This
is a guy that everything that has happened personally professionally
we have absorbed over the last twenty years of his
professional rear. You're calling this the second life. I feel
like the main focus of that title is simply about

(06:07):
him professionally. But as I as I dove deeper and
deeper into your book, I felt that the Second Life
of Tiger, at least the way you presented it, was
his personality. I mean, this is a guy that came
into our lives a stone faced killer on the golf course,
and now he's a guy that will answer questions, that

(06:28):
does certain things I loved. At the very end of
your book, you said you mentioned a note Greg Norman
at handed Tiger and Tiger never said anything about it,
about the win, and one of the last few pages
of the book, you said, you know, Tiger saw Greg
and thanked him for the note. It were those, there
were those little tidbits that made you feel like the
second life of Tiger wasn't anything about his golf. It
was all about how he's presented now and how he

(06:50):
approaches life. Well, that's a very good insight, I would
I agree with all of that. Uh, you know what
you know from having read the book. My take on
the idea of the second life of Tiger Woods actually
having a starting date in my mind, uh, in my writing.
In other words, you know, I don't know this was
sound self absorbed, but this is what authors often do.

(07:14):
My take is that his second life began the day
he was arrested on that horrible Memorial Day night in
a in two thousand and seventeen, and he had to
he was really at a cross roads. Uh. I have
a personal take on the sex scandal, which you know,
in one sense was you know, a tragedy for Ellen

(07:35):
and uh and and his in his family life, but
none of our business. A lot of people think that, oh,
when he came back from that went to rehab after that,
came back from that that that was maybe you know,
a new chapter in the in the in the Life
and Times of Tiger Woods. I don't really think it was.
I think that I think the real moment of reckoning
came on that Memorial Day in two thousand and seventeen. Uh.

(07:58):
And I think he had to dig deep and find
out who he really was. So all the things Shane
that you just talked about, expressing more gratitude in in interviews,
being more patient with fans, being more engaged with officials
and tournament sponsors and and other players. Um, I think
that all is a function of him digging deeper into

(08:21):
who he really is, and uh and shedding some of
that you know, stone cold killer that you just described,
and uh and finding a humanity that some of us
really would never have might not have ever known really
existed when you rewatch the two thousand nineteen Masters. And
we'll talk a lot about that, because that was the

(08:42):
victory that that weaved itself through your book. Was his
his fifteenth major, finally getting that Masters in two thousand nineteen,
you know, the last obviously major, coming Tory Pines, when
HD was barely a thing. I mean when you were
we were watched it a couple of weekends ago. You know,
it's a lot different in O eight it is in nineteen.
But I always, you know, when I close my eyes

(09:04):
and think of Tiger Woods, and I think of Tiger
Woods the golfer. You know, I go to moments, the
huge fist pump at Sawgrass when he was playing in
the Ameter, and I think of you know, the celebrations
throwing his hat at bay Hill, you know, the two
fists up in the air to get into the playoff
with Rocko. The one thing that I continually noticed that
Sunday at Augusta was how that none of those things happened.

(09:27):
It was it was almost like he had a full
cell phone battery of of ability that day. This is
what I have in me. I can't waste any of
it because I've got to get my cell phone to
the end of the day with battery power. And then
it all came out when he finally won on the
eighteenth Green. But everything about that Sunday was just a

(09:47):
little bit different. I mean, three stomes going off early.
You know, it's Tiger, He's there, but he's chasing and
he's chasing a guy that face Tiger in a major
championship the year before and wasn't aired. It is so
interesting to see this quote unquote new Tiger and how
he approaches these huge moments versus what we've seen for

(10:09):
the better part of his career. All right, Shane, now
now you're making me mad. I mean, it's bad enough
that you're such a good golfer, you're such a handsome guy,
but now you're coming up with analogies that a way
better than I. I'm a guy that always has a
dead cell phone battery, so it makes total sense to me.
That's that's perfect. I would completely agree with that he

(10:30):
was playing I mean, just to get it down into
the mechanics of Sunday at Augusta. Everything you said, I
completely agree with. Uh, But he was playing chess. Now
you're not playing chess that moment. You know you're on
seventeen team. You got to drill on. That's pure athleticism.
But everything else is chess, and chess requires tremendous reservoirs
of of ptitions and UH and and intellectual output, and

(10:54):
then you gotta go when it's time to go. So
I think you're right. He was pacing himself all the while.
He knew he was the guy with the four coats
and and none of those guys had any and that
gave big advantage, and that mistakes would be made by others,
and if he could avoid making mistakes, uh, that he
could get to the house with a little bit of
charged left in that battery. And as we saw, there

(11:17):
was a very little left in that battery. And luckily
for him, uh, it didn't go to a playoff, because
who knows what those fresher younger players might have done,
uh in a playoff. Yeah, you you talked a little
bit about that. You mentioned his fear of that Bogey
bogey finish at Augusta. We saw it against De Marco.
You know, he chips in and things go crazy. And
this goes back a little bit to the energy, right,

(11:38):
that was so much energy he used in celebration and
firing up the crowd him and Stevie high five and
kind of missing the high five. But then he bogey's
seventeen and eighteen. It was a little bit like Kenny
Perry and all of a sudden he's in a playoff
and now he's got to refocus, re click in. And
of course he won that Masters as well. But I'm
with you, he did not win any extra holes. He
wanted that thing to end, and it ended. I want

(12:00):
to go back to the book. Just early on you
talk a little. I mentioned Greg Norman already. I'm not
sure I ever understood how close Tiger in his life
and his career followed what Norman did in his life
and his career. Well, how clearly, how closely Tiger followed.

(12:21):
Oh are you talking about the mechanics of hiring Steve Williams.
There was a lot of that. There were so many
similarities with those two guys. And then he and then
he hired Norman's lawn guy. And by the way, to
call him a lawn guy an understatement. It's ridiculous art.
He's an artist with a lawnmower or estate managers. Maybe

(12:45):
I might be the right term. I'm not man sure. Yes, Well,
I mean, start with Butch Harmon. Start with the fact
that Greg Norman was the best player in the world,
drove the ball on a string, had all the shots
pretty much, uh, and had Butch Harmon as a seat.
And then uh, it was the number one player in
the world, and every which way that Tiger could supplant

(13:07):
the guy. And he goes back to what you said earlier,
shaneem of being a stone cold killer. He was going
to supplant him. Uh so uh teacher, Uh state residents
approach to practice. You know, Butch says this all the time,
or he used to. Uh, you know, the hardest working
student he ever had was Greg Norman until he until
he had developed a relationship with this teenage golfer Tiger Woods,

(13:29):
and Tiger Woods had more capacity for work and more
ability to absorb information than even Greg Norman. Uh. It's
kind of weird because you know, you know, Greg was
the only one, you know, the two British opens his majors.
He's sort of gotten a short shrift and you know
he's got such a big personality stort of gott a
short shrift here. But before there was Tiger, there was Norman. Yeah,

(13:50):
I mean, and we always here, you know, I'm I'm
thirty six. I didn't have a chance to watch a
lot of the Greg Norman prime days, but he was
the type of player that dominated with his distance, dominated
with his ball striking. Brad Faxton's told me a story
that he was playing I think Brad and Norman were
playing in a practice round and Brad, you know, famously

(14:11):
not a great driver. The golf ball was spraying it
a little bit all over the place, and I guess
Norman went up to Butch and goes, is this guy
a pro? And Butch goes, yeah, he's beating you by two.
You know, Norman was the hit it down the middle
of the fairway, hit it three and twenty yards, had
that look on his face all the time. But the differences,
of course being that Norman, when it seemed like the

(14:31):
brakes were gonna go his way, they didn't, And with Tiger,
the brakes always always went his way. And it even
happened in nineteen. I mean, he's got two guys, he's
got a guy in front of him. In two thousand nineteen,
they're all chasing the same goal and all these guys
rinted and Tigers the guy that plays it to the
middle of the green smartly on twelve. And that was
really the story of that championship. Yes, although sometimes people

(14:52):
forget about what a mess mullinar he played the fifteen
bad first I did. I did as well. When I
was reading the book that is altered just a quick
funny note. Since you work in TV, you'll especially appreciate
the same. When um, when Harrington won that second Open
that was at Birkdale, correct and uh. And he was,

(15:12):
I believe playing with Norman in the fourth round, and
Norman was newly married to Christie Evert and he I
think he would have been I'm sure he would have
been the oldest winner of a major. Could he have
pulled it off? And his putting stroke is spectacular And
fathers doing the commentary, I don't know for whom, but
I know I heard him say this, uh and uh,
and he looks at Norman's putting stroke and he says,
it's not fair. It's there's absolutely no yipp in it whatsoever.

(15:39):
A little a little bit of what we are we
are seeing and continue to see with Tiger. One thing
and again one of my favorite things about there's two
things I love about your writing style. And I mean,
I'm just gonna say it. I continually believe you're one
of the best, if not the best, that covers this
beat in the entire world at what you do. So
reading a book that you and obviously a lot of

(16:00):
time on was a treat for me. But two things
you do that are amazing. One is you're just a
perfect word smith. Let me just give people an example.
You were talking about Tiger and last year at the
Masters and on Sunday, correct me if I'm wrong here,
but on Sunday before the Masters. So that's the drive,
chip and put day. The only people allowed on the
big course, if you will, are members and past champions.

(16:23):
Is that right? Yes, that's so. Tiger was playing an
afternoon nine whole practice around and you wrote this and
I just loved it. I screened. I had to take
a picture of the page. You said. The PGA Tour
produces a mountain of stats under headlines like strokes gained
putting and strokes gained ball striking. What nobody can measure
is strokes gained thinking, strokes gained preparing, strokes gained imagining,

(16:48):
and you you just felt like what you were seeing
with Tiger, he just had a couple of edges and
a putter, and he was out there going over a
golf course that we all know he understands and has
seen more than anybody in the field, maybe outside of
Phil Mickelson. Yet he's out there this Sunday before the Masters,
just just using everything he can, using all the time

(17:09):
allowed to prepare for what he knew was a chance
at another major championship. Well shame. First off, I want
to thank you for those that extraordinarily generous uh comment
about my writing. I really really appreciate it. And then uh,
and you you know this, but other others wouldn't. Any

(17:29):
writer nonfiction gets a lot of help and I've got
a lot of and uh and and too, so two
things that come to mind when you're talking about that. Uh. No,
of course I wasn't out there walking with Tiger woods
and play the nine holes. But you know, between talking
a little bit, hearing Tiger talk about it, a little bit,
hearing Joe Kaba talk about it, Chaldo who was out there,

(17:49):
Terry Holt, Bernard Langer's caddy, who's out there? So they
all these sources together helped me get a deeper sense
of what it was. But Faldo was the most selpful
because because he saw it through a champion's eyes, that
he understood what I might not have understood. How to
not talked to Faldo, uh that he was getting in

(18:09):
the mood, in the mood to play that that golf course. Uh,
so you do get so so I do want to
acknowledge all the help that a nonfiction marter gets, whereas
the picture writers, you know, often just sitting in the room,
although he or she gets a lot of help too.
And then another thing, he said, I have no idea
if the story is apocryphal or not, but even if
it is, it conveys so much. There's a famous story

(18:32):
about Jack Nicholiffs going to the driving range of the
practice tea and uh and there's a ball sitting there
and he stands over the ball with no club and
he just looks at the ball, and then he walks
back to the cliphouse. He says, yeah, I'm done for
the day. And the point is, you know so much.
I've never heard that one before. I have not, And
you know, it doesn't sound true. It doesn't sound big Jack,

(18:52):
but but it does make it sounds a little bit
more like Hogan. But it does make the point that
that's at that level, when you've got the physical parts
basically worked out, then it's how prepared are you mentally
for what you want to do to the golf course?
How much do you have a blueprint of what it's
going to look like? And Tiger is the king of
this and U And one one example that that comes

(19:15):
to mind is was, now, let's see, he's won two
opens at the old course. So this I'm I'm not
remembering the year immediately. No, okay, not two thousand. That
was his first of the second time. Okay, thank you,
so oh five when he won the second one, and
uh And it was a clinic and he came into
the and he came into the depressed send. Everyone's leaning

(19:38):
in and he starts the sentence with I'll tell you what,
and people are leaking, you know, all the writers are
leaning in. It's like, oh, Tiger is going to give
us a revelation. And this is this is close to
what he said before I went out there today. That
was the best warm obsession I've had in years, or
you know, the best warm obsession I had in my life.
And everyone's like, oh man, could you possibly give us

(19:58):
something we can use? Uh. I remember just sinkly thinking
it was boring, but it was truthful. In other words,
he had played the golf course in his mind and
played the shots that he thought he was going to
need in the on the practice tea, and then it
was just a simple question of of executing. It's not
so simple, but it is a question of executing it. Uh,

(20:20):
that's how his mind works. And uh, it's not colorful
and it's not romantic like seve A or Trevino or
you know, remember else you might put in that group,
but it is Tiger. And the proof of the pudding
is what two tour wins, including fifteen major championships. So
it's pretty hard to beat that. Yeah, the focus of
this book in terms of golf is of course the

(20:41):
Masters last year. But I I guess i'd maybe either
I don't remember how important it was or I have
glossed over it considering what else had happened in two
thousand and eighteen. But something I felt like he brought
up well was the two thousand eighteen Honda and just
the way Tiger played that week, it seemed like that

(21:01):
was what the world, the Tiger fans, the golf fans
that follow this guy, that was really what we were
waiting for. Yes, and the that was the special week
that that hont Tournament. I've always enjoyed that hond Tournament
and going all the way back to Eagle Trace days.
But there's something about it. But so well, yeah, I mean,
shame you have your such a noledgeal golfers and uh

(21:23):
but you know, for for more casual gopers, they're they're
owed by the driving game always, and and and some
of the other aspects. But at at tigers level, the
thing that really gets people's attention is ability to hit
irons on the face the distance you want to hit them,
because they're going to hit them left and right, they're
gonna they're they're not gonna be too far off there there.

(21:46):
That part is kind of mechanical. But but to hit
it to the link you want to hit it, you know,
as as as Johnny Miller used to say, you know,
in my prime, I could distinguish from one seventy six
and one seventy seven. Uh, well, that's gonna leave you
with a make up a put. So that that was
the first thing I saw at that Honda tournament, aside
from some other cultural things that were extremely interesting. But

(22:07):
just to pass forward there per minute, so all the
you know, you know whatever two roughly eighty shots that
he played are fewer than that. Uh. At Augusta last year.
One of the ones that stands up most of my
mind is the second shot five iron on Sunday from
the right side of the Ferrway on fifteen two hundred
forty yards raw shot piercing. You know when I say

(22:31):
draw show, I mean like three yards of draw sat
of the green is gonna take that slope and go
down there. And the absolute worst score this guy is
gonna make is four. Well, four is huge. Four is
way better than seven. You know, four windsy the tournament.
So you know how Tiger talks about the the t
shot and seventeen blah blah blah. But I mean the

(22:52):
purity of that's now, that's that's a bread and butter
shot form. It's not really even a hard shot form.
But there aren't that many people play. And then another
quick one that comes to and I'm just blanking here,
but this was the first or second round. I think
it was the well, I just can't remember right now,
but the first or second round he drove it in
the green side excuse me, the fairway bunker on the
left side of eighteen. And you know there's a lip there,

(23:12):
it's nasty, it's straight up a hill and he's in there,
I think with the seven iron, and and there are
so few I mean you're a really good golfer and
you're a really foot person, and you know, I don't
know your your game, won't have to know, but but
the number of people who could actually advance a golf
ball from that trap to the back right of the
green from where you could to put it's a very

(23:34):
short list. So the skill set of hitting an iron lush,
the distance you want to hit it and need to
hit it um is off the charts. Yeah, you know
that story brings up to your point of again, you
said it to start, it was like he was playing
chess on Sunday against everybody else, and maybe he's been
playing chess against everybody his entire life, and we're just

(23:56):
starting to realize how good he is a chess. But
I think it was Hogan. It's a story of Hogan
playing fifteen at Augusta with an amateur and he laid up.
He was a whole bunch under par He laid up
and he knocked on the green and made birdie and
the amateur asked him why didn't go for it? And
I think Hogan stone faced of course as he was
said I didn't need eagle, you know, And I just

(24:18):
felt like that's the same point here. Tiger would have
loved to make three there, but he didn't need three.
You know, he's I, I just want to make four.
I'm gonna hit the exact shot I need to hit.
And the distance control thing with him his entire career.
You know how people say it's your it's your favorite
pros favorite pro. I feel like Tiger's iron game as

(24:38):
everybody's favorite pros favorite aspect of any golfer in the
history of the game was his Tiger's continued ability to
be able to hit iron shots exactly where he wants them. Well,
that's well said. I totally agree with that. And now, Butch,
where he on the phone, I think would would would
add this to the conversation. In at twenty one, in

(25:00):
his first major as a professional, he wins the Masters
by twelve shots. Now, any normal person of thousands going
to say, Okay, I've got this. All I have to
do is hold on to what I have and I'm
gonna win for a long time to come. And what
Butch Harmon said, and with Tiger acknowledged to be true
or I'm not sure what the orders might have been

(25:20):
the other way around, was that I am really good
at golf. But I've got a distance control problem with
you know, I think it was I think it was
really the wedge. But let's say eight nine wedge sandwich possibly,
And uh, and I've got if I'm going to dominate
for a long time, I've got to get better at that.
And so who would think that you would want to
do make any changes to the swing that just allowed

(25:43):
you to win a Master's by twelve shots? Who would
make And it just gets the thing that we're talking about.
It was distance control with the shortest clubs. Uh, that
was really what he worked on. And then we know
what happened in two thousands. Yeah, I loved the part
in the book you and this is just the golf
dork in me. You love you dove into the Champions

(26:03):
dinners at August Over the years, was that information always
made public? Was that something that in the nineties and
in the late eighties, was that information that they would
tell the media and the public because now you know
you you see the pictures posted on social media and
they obviously aren't scared to reveal that information. But if
it wasn't public, how much digging do you have to

(26:24):
do to find out what meals were served. You know,
I'm not sure, Shane, I think that menu has always
been released. Uh, But I don't want this to come
up off by being I hope this one sounded modest,
but I would say the mechanics of how the dinner works,
I don't think. I don't think I've read that anywhere before,

(26:45):
you know, typing it up for for for this book.
And I'm just you know, as as I'm sure the
same is true for you. I'm fortunate to have relations,
you know, trusting relationships with a lot of people who
have who have won that, uh won that tournament and
are at that dinner. So I was able to get
a good sense of what that dinner is like. Yeah,
it seemed like and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna

(27:06):
lean on you here. It seems like Vj's dinner is
kind of the consensus goat of the champions inners. There
that fair. I think it's only for the foodies, uh okay,
And I don't think and I don't think there were
that many foodies among I don't think Jack Nicholas is
a foodie. I don't think Gary players. I think they're like,
give me a piece of Gary players like bring me
the cod no sauce, and Jack's like, you know, bring

(27:29):
me the prime wrist with the burnets. Uh. But you
do have you do have some I think, uh you
know very much uh a loft the ball and seven
before he died, of course uh uh faio uh are
are very much um foodies and they appreciated DJ's effort.

(27:51):
I didn't know that J was, but it evidently evidently is.
But yes, I do, Yes, people do talk about that
VJ dinner and the tie after he brought in from Atlanta.
So as a writer somebody that's laying out a book
like this, I know you're doing hours and hours and
hours of interviews. But something that I feel like, specifically

(28:12):
to you, I love I talked about a couple of things.
This is the other thing is how you'll sprinkle in
quotes from something completely non golf related throughout the story
to help hammer home your point. Let me give an example,
because this is one of my favorites. You were you
were talking about winning and the Masters, and and you're
talking about prep and how it's not the sexiest thing

(28:33):
in the world, and you gave a war in Buffett
quote about how he invested in brick and other durables.
And you said, quote, try to contain your excitement, and
it was just such a perfect quote for the moment.
How are you grabbing these quotes? How many quotes do
you have in your brain? Mr? Bamburger? Well they float around,
But let's let's make a nod to uh by acquaintance

(28:58):
slash friend and I think maybe you're buss uh. Mark
Loomis here. Mark Loomis is the producer of you help
me if I don't have the title correct. Mark Lomis
is the producer of golf for for the Fox broadcast,
so he handles all the U. S J events that
you see on Fox, and Shane works with him very closely.
If I may speak to your Shane and uh, and

(29:18):
I've had the pleasure work machine with well Will Shane
as well. But what I meant to say is Mark.
Mark's mother is a legend now in in early nineties,
her name is Carol Loomis. Now many would not know,
but many would know that Carol Loomis, among many other things,
is Warren Buffett's ghostwriter. So when you see some and

(29:40):
was was a longtime writer for different Time inc. Magazines,
Most most notably uh Fortune Business, you know the time
magazine of the business world, Fortune and anyway. Uh So
some of these legendary lines like, uh, you know this
year we invested in cement, try to continue your excitement.
I don't know specifically about that line, but Mark's mother,

(30:00):
Carol Loomis fingerprints are all over some of these, uh
some of these Buffet ones. So uh so that's where
that one comes from. And uh yeah, they do. They
float around in my head. They're not written down anywhere.
But I go to a lot of movies, I read
a lot of books, and and uh I do retain
things that that amused me or you know, one of one.
Another one of Buffetts things is if you know, this

(30:23):
is something only a really rich person can say. If
you see an investment you like, don't take a child's portion.
Well that's great. If you've got a few billion dollars
to in, that's right. You can dive into a little easier. Yeah,
that's right. When when you don't worry about what your
debit card amount is, he probably hasn't checked his debit
card statement too much over the years. Yeah, exactly. I

(30:45):
was very impressed at one point when I learned the
Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett's housekeeper came by monthly twice a month,
and you know, well ours came once a week. So
I said to my Christine, you know, isn't it funny
Warren Buffett's I'm glad our house comes once week because
it makes everything nicer than anyway. We digress. We're gonna
take a quick break and be right back. I want

(31:16):
to get to Tiger and something you pointed out that
I never knew and I had no idea about, and
now it makes total sense. We knew that Tiger in Majors,
when he had one hand around the trophy going into
the weekend, he basically won. I never knew how solidly
he played on Saturday, specifically against whomever he was paired with.

(31:39):
You framed it as moving day Saturday. It was almost
like a match played day for Tiger, and his record
nearly flawless against the person next to him that day.
He will kill the versit he's playing with on Saturday. Well,
look if if Tiger, if Tiger is contending, that means
the guy that he's playing with on Saturdays contending as well.

(32:02):
Tiger doesn't wanna have to worry about that guy comes Sunday,
so he will bury that guy. Now, I've asked Tiger
about this and he and he denies it. But you know,
Tiger keeps his methods very close to the best, and
I don't blame him at all all for that. Uh.
I don't know if this is an inside or not,
but one of the things that I picked up about

(32:22):
Tiger really only in the writing of this book was
that Tiger mastered match play. He won three straight U
S Juniors, as you know, and that followed by three
straight U S m s. It's completely a heard of
that you could do that for six straight years. So
he came onto the PGA Tour having figured out match
play golfle match play golf is boxing, knock the guy

(32:43):
out that you're playing, and and tournament golf of course
is very different. But what I think Tiger was able
to do, I mean, they're almost different games. Uh. I
think what Tiger was able to do is hold on
to that match play mentality, I'm going to bury this
guy on Saturday, so I don't have to worry about
him on Sunda day, and played the chess required of
tournament golfer. You're playing the course and you're playing the

(33:05):
whole field at the same time. So yes, it was
very useful for him to be those guys on Saturday.
And yes, the I mean and it's not just you know,
sometimes absolutely destroyed the guy. And by the way, if
you can do it, you know, one time, and you know,
if you do it at the two thousand and six
p J Championship wherever it was, and then you're gonna

(33:26):
face that guy six years later on on a Sunday, Well,
he's got him in the back of the mind. Or
like this guy has no fun to play with when
all the lights are on you. Yeah, Tony Fenow you
you said you talked to Tony Fine a few months
after the Masters, and he said he was on the
range and he couldn't get out of his head that
Tiger Woods was a couple of spots, you know, and

(33:46):
he was gonna play with him in the final round
of the Masters. This is the thing that he'd always
wanted to do. And again, as as you said, Earl
would always tell Tiger, let the legend grow. The legends
just sitting there warming up and you're thinking about him,
He's not thinking about you, right, And uh and and
I think it's great that we're at a place right
now where you have people like Tony Finow, uh justin

(34:08):
Thomas Rory McRoy, Jordan's Speef h Francesco Mulinary who are
actually willing to tell you a little bit about their
internal lives because it makes the game more interesting for us.
Of course, Tiger famously was not really willing to do that.
And that's okay, you know, it's his his business and
his approach, and uh, that's up to him. But but

(34:28):
but but what what a truthful thing for Finelle to
h to acknowledge and along the same lines and uh
and and this is in the book, uh, which reminds
me of quick secutly, my my friend Gary Nansickle form
former colleague Sports Illustrated will always say, you want to
win a writer store and promoter his book will say, well,
as I say in pause the book, you know it's apology.

(34:49):
But anyway, but I do say this in the book
the book, Uh, that that wakes up on Sunday morning
and he's getting dressed and he knows what he's gonna wear,
and it's like you can't put on its. You know,
it's probably dark, it's probably pre dawn because they're going
off on Sunday morning, and you can't not think about
how is this going to look with a green code on?

(35:10):
You don't want to be thinking it, but you're a
human being. Of course, Tiger Woods, he's got four coats.
What's got one coat? But he's got four winds. He
knows what that whole deal is like plus black and
red and green. He knows that that whole thing that's right.
He's not worried about a clash, he's not worried about
Gosh's he's so, he's so, he's in the club forever.

(35:30):
Mulinari has got the passing thought. And thank you, Francesco
molinary On behalf of this writer for sharing with me
so I could use it so um, but what an
insight for what it's like to be in that moment
on Sunday morning trying to do some by the way,
and this is the guy won the Bridge showpen a
few months earlier or a half year earlier. Was it
Wise Cough or was it Miller who apparently had that

(35:53):
thought crossed their mind on fifteen on Sunday before they
hit in the water and they said it man green
Jacket's gonna look good on me. I don't know that one.
It could be either, but I know, I know wives
Scott said on twelve, when you stood on twelve and
those fans are close to when you're on the part
three twelve, he's like, I felt, I felt naked of fryeball,
you know, and you know, and here's the best dress
guy on tour with you know, the perfect posture and

(36:15):
the perfect sweater and the Kashmir this, and you know,
just the beautiful dresser and I felt naked. So yeah,
they it's great that they're willing to admit their frailties.
I think one of the things that draws us all
to the game, no matter what level which we play,
is those frailties are basically the same for all of us.
And I think that's why, you know, so many of

(36:36):
the golf writers play as well, and the broadcasters as well,
and to some degree, even though the stakes of course
are way way different. But but what we do when
they do are there are a lot of similarities, a
lot of differences, but a lot of similarities as well. Yeah,
speak of similarities. One of the best debates in all
of sports, I think, and of course the best debate

(36:56):
in golf is Jack versus Tiger. You said this early
in the book, and I guess I've never really thought
about it. You were talking about their accomplishments in the
major championships. You said, two men with three career Grand
Slam So Tiger and Jack have won the Grand Slam
three times over. Nobody else has won it twice over.
So that's a good example of how much different they are.

(37:18):
And then late in the book, one of the last
things you talked about were these two. You said, Tiger
Woods is the best player in history, you said, and
I believe Jack is the greatest of all time. So
you're You're kind of on both camps there, and I
feel like I'm in the same camp as you dominance
his ability to win. I feel like Tiger eclipse Jack,

(37:41):
while Jack obviously has what Tiger cannot reach yet. Right, Shane,
you we're looking at this the same way. Uh, to me, Jack,
you know to be the greatest. You know, I'll leave
used to say, you know, I'm the greatest of all time. Well,
who really knows what that means, especially in boxing, because
you've just got the one guy that you've got to beat,

(38:03):
and you know, Uh, it's hard to compare the generations.
But what does it mean to be the greatest of
all time? What's I would say, it's the stamp you leave,
you know, on your sport. If we're gonna you know,
definancial athletes in this conversation, And I think Jack's stamp
on golf is unmatched. I think Tiger's record is unmatched

(38:25):
in part because and I know a lot of people
disagree with this. Jack be a tremendous group of crusty
tough men, you know, from Hubert Green and John Maffey,
you know who aren't often part of the conversation. Of course,
you know, Billy Casper and Arnold and Johnny Miller and
other true legends of the game. Uh, Tiger be fewer

(38:48):
of those kinds of personalities. But the population, the world
population of super league golfers that Tiger had to be
is vastly bigger. If you look at now, what is
Jack Happy's got five p g A So when he
won those pgs, well, he's beating a bunch of American
golfers and a bunch of club pros. A bunch of

(39:10):
club pros who could, on their best four days together,
could never come within five or six or ten shots
of Jack Nicholas on his for best days or even
it's four average days. In other words, he's got so
much of that field beat before you know the first
shot is played Thursday morning, So Tigers beating a much deeper,

(39:31):
deeper pool. But for overall impact on the game, I
don't know how anyone can top Jack Nicholas because he,
to me is the true heir of Jones in terms
of the values of the game that transcend the actual
planning of the game. And just to finish up this

(39:52):
one thought, Arnold's career, it's overstated in terms of what
he did. It was a tremendous, tremendous career. But we
didn't win the career Grand Slam. Um uh. He didn't
win all over the world like like Gary, like Garrett
Player has done. But Arnold's overall stamp on the game
is immeasurable because he lifted the game, and he lifted people.

(40:16):
Uh uh. He made the game better. And that I know.
None of this is definable, but it's deep in me
my belief of what constitutes greatness, and that's why, among
many other things that I could add to that, but
that's why Jack is number one in r was way
up there for me as well. A wild nugget in
the book I found out about you nine rounds of

(40:37):
golf with Trump? Who would have I ever thought of
You're almost a double digits. Well, I've got. I meant
nine and a half. I don't know what went one
day we played eighteen, and then he went out for
an emergency nine. That the West Bond Beach course where
he's got twenty seven holes, which abuts the prison where

(41:00):
Tiger actually was detained for a while. After that that
horrible night, Well what happened there? Shame. The only reason
that Trump want to play golf with me was that
I was writing up his golf courses for Sports Illustrated.
In other words, I had something he wanted, which was
a good write up for about the courses in its
owner for Sports Illustrated. So he wasn't gonna let me
far out of my sight. And then he you know,

(41:22):
he's a very he's a very congenial golf partner. We're
not gonna do a whole political thing here, but just
a limited to what it's like to play golf with
Donald Trump. He's a lot of fun. To play with.
It's not golf, as you and I know, and I'm
a ninety shooter, but you know, if I tell you
shoeed ninety three, I probably shot pretty close to ninety one.
That's not the case with Trump, you know, because Trump
plays like millions do, just a very sort of casual golf.

(41:45):
Only problem is he said by bluest six to Bill,
you should put in your story. But he's a capable
golfer and he's fun to play with. That anyway, That's
how I played nine half rounds of golf with Donald
Trump was because because I had something you wanted. Yeah.
I had Rick Riley on last year about his book.
If you want to deep dive into the into the
Trump golf world, you can listen to that podcast. I

(42:05):
just I was. I was shocked and surprised. I mean,
I know, he obviously has his life has has been
in and out of golf for years and years and years.
But I was like, man, that's that's a lot of rounds.
Of course, most of them, if not all of them,
assuming happened before he was president. You you wrote a piece,
and the last thing I wanna talk about is I
love this piece. It was after of course the passing

(42:28):
of Kobe Bryant. You wrote a piece and it compared
Kobe and Tiger in their careers. Can you just expand
on their similarities, you know, kind of like hat tipping
back to the points you were making in that piece, right, Well,
you know, they're they're they're similar in age, They're they're
transformational because uh, they Kobe had appeal way beyond there

(42:52):
were basket There were people who have the most casual
interest or no interest in NBA basketball who were drawn
to Kobe. To Kobe style, to Kobe's sophistication with language,
uh uh, to Kobe's openness. Tigers different personality type from Kobe. Uh,
but Tiger also was played a very uh similar role.

(43:15):
He he had tremendous appeal for the way he carried
himself and when he played the game, uh to people
who really had passing interests or even no interest in golf.
Uh and uh and they dominated their games. Uh, they
played through injuries and they also you know, if you
have a six year run in golf, it's tremendous, and

(43:38):
Tigers has been twenties. Uh, Kobe the same. I mean,
if you have a six year NBA NBA cruise tremendous.
What did Kobe have close to twenty So the longevity
is astounding. Uh, some of the off court and off
course problems are are are broadly similar. The commitment to education,
the commitment to their to their own children in the

(43:59):
face the pressures of being a public person and having
the steps as we all do in life. Uh, there
was just a lot of similarities there. And I had
the feeling and I don't know this, but just listening
to the little that I've heard Tiger talk about Kobe,
I don't think there was an everyday closeness at all
between the two. Of course, Tiger worships, the worship the
Lakers are growing up, but I think they probably didn't

(44:21):
really need to be, because, uh, their understanding of each
other's life was on on such a deep level and
such as really a pround level. All right, last thing, Michael,
I'm gonna ask you, if you retired tomorrow, what three majors?
And I know this is putting you on the spot,
but what three major championships? On Sunday, as you're sitting

(44:41):
in front of your computer preparing to write, were you
most excited about writing the story? Which three events, and
I'm assuming twenty nineteens probably gonna kind of land in
one of the three spots. The weird thing about nine
and because you know much and no you'll believe me,
but most people won't. But that's okay. I was rooting

(45:03):
like crazy for Frantriscal Millinary to win that tournament, and
people would say that's crazy because if he, if Tiger wins,
that's great for your book. Yes, it was good for
the book The Tiger One, no question about that. But
Millinary is my favorite player in the game right now.
I love the way he goes about his business, and
also I'm looking for moments for character reveals itself. I've
said this before, so I hope it doesn't sound to reverse,

(45:24):
but I deeply believe it. And had Tiger made a
double on eighteen and lost in a playoff, we would
have learned a lot more about Tiger's character then then
through winning, and uh so that would have been I
would have been very drawn to that. Having said that, definitely,
I put I put the nineteen the two thousand nineteen Masters.
I put the ninety seven Masters on there for lots

(45:48):
of different reasons, one of which was just a house
full of s I writers, all with different assignments, writing
it up on deadline, pulling all nighters and trying to
capture something original about about an event that had legs
that went and reached, that went way way beyond golf,
that was very meaningful. And then because I really grew

(46:10):
up on him, uh Watson had Turnberry. Uh Uh that
really springs to mind because Watson handled the defeat of
that playoff just Stewart sinking the two thousand nine Open Championship. Um,
he handled it with more grace than than an I did.
Trying to write it up, and I remember leaving the town.

(46:32):
I remember leaving the President Turnbury and it was pitch black.
I mean it was nearly it was nearly actually was
not pitch blacks what I'm saying it because it was
it was nearly dawn, which comes very early in Scotland
in summer, you know, probably about what four third or
five in the more, And trying to just trying to
get that. Were you at that event, Chane, No, but
I lived over there for summer and I remember that.

(46:56):
I always said it never got dark. It always got
midnight blue, but it never got actually dark. You know,
you never felt like the sky was black. Yeah, that's true.
So those those three spring to mind very quickly. But
you know, the matriction runs wild on these questions because
you know, if you read about the game, as I
know you do and I do, you know what about

(47:17):
sars and making that two and thirty five? You know
what about Arnold and fifty eight lay, don't you? You know?
So there's things that exist only on YouTube. Erland highlight
reels are only in our imagination from reading that you
know are part of uh, you know, there's they're scrolling
around in my mind too. But for events where I
was actually there, those three, those three would be probably
the first thing that's room to mind. Yeah, you know,

(47:38):
I I've been to your point about some of the
majors we maybe forget about sometimes when we talk about
the greatest ones. I've been during all of this, where
there's no sports and nothing on TV. I've been diving
into old final rounds of Masters. All those masters are
on YouTube. I've been trying to watch the ones that
maybe we don't consider greatest masters ever. I watched the

(47:58):
Kenny Perry one a couple of weeks ago. I want
to get into the Zack Johnson Masters, because you know,
Tiger had a chance to win that one as well,
and that was one of the tougher modern day masters
we've ever had. And as you watch these ones, that again,
the nineties seven Masters might have seven million views on YouTube,
and you look at some of the other ones and
they have a hundred thousand views on there. But they're

(48:19):
great in their own regards, and they're fun to roll through.
They're fun to see which moment changed, what was the
you know, two thousand, nineteen twelve hole of the O
nine Masters. And I've I found them really revealing because
it's easy to forget about the great moments there. My last,
my last thing I want to ask you again putting
you on the spot, but we have free time right now.

(48:41):
Any other golf books beside yours and the ones you've
penned over the years, any golf books that you would
push people towards, of course, after they read the Second
Life of Tiger Woods? Well really really, if if you've
never read a book on Tiger Woods, I would I
would probably start with the Contain Bennett book, uh, because
still give you a scope of his life. I find

(49:03):
the book semi depressing, Uh, Shane, what was your experience
a little bit? It was it just it just bummed
you out because it was it was so much about
again that the person that is Tiger and the demons
that exists and and and this bubble my life is
so I can't relate to it really because it's such

(49:25):
a self absorbed life of just golf and me, me, me,
And I think what's interesting what's happened since then is
he's he's I think, broken out of that too to
a great degree. And how he actually did that will
lead to the third book that I would put ahead
of my book excep if it's not written yet, which
would be if Tiger ever writes his own book, which
you know he says it's going to do, and I
hope he does do it because I think it'll be
a I think it'll be a great exercise for him. Uh.

(49:49):
But you know, if someone is new to reading books
about golf and they loved golf, they're welcome to write
to me, and I'd be I'd be happy to to
give a listen and be a little easier to do
if I woul at home begin my bookshelf right now.
But uh, you know, any of the Jenkins books. George
Plimpton's The boguey Man is one of my favorite books
of all time. Golf in the Kingdom was a huge

(50:12):
hit for me, and it's a shame did you have
did you read it to do it or not? Like, yeah,
you touched on it late late in second life and
and I love that you kept bringing that up. Yeah,
it's a monumental book to me. It doesn't you know
a lot of people don't register and that's you know
that that's the reading experience. There are people who will,
you know, take a book at this book. You know
that I just just say, I feel like I know
this already, and those oh this is opening. So you know,

(50:34):
the reading experience is so individual and people bring their
life experience to It's very hard to say, but you know,
to go back to the thing that you first said.
And I know the quote from George Plimpton, but you
said it right from the start. And I'm not sure
who really is responsible for the smaller the ball, the
better writing will Golf has such a rich literature. Um,
some of your listeners will know, but but some wanted

(50:55):
the names Herbert Warren Wind and Bernard Darwin, who has
Charles Darwin's I think I think nephew maybe grinstematic nephew. Uh,
you know, long well long before your time, Chaine, a
little bit before my time. And uh so you can
have a lot of fun in this period getting lost
in golf books in Chaine. I really this whole time
that we've been talking, so you know, the occasional lapse,

(51:18):
this has been a pleasure. We've been on the phone
now for getting close to an hour and just to
get sort of lost in golf and not thinking about
C D D or any you know, we'll talk about
nineteen right now. It's not it's not two numbers at
the end of the virus. You know, it's the whole
where Arnold would you know, uh down a couple of
uh with his buddies out fins for all that. Anyway,

(51:40):
it's nice to have this break, and I'm not apologizing
at all. And you know, in this interview or any
other time I talked about the book because we need
and we deserve a break from the surreal lentless news.
And you know, my own take on is that we're
getting closer to good news every single day. Uh, but

(52:01):
of course we are, and and that golf gives us
we who are serious golfers. I've written this, but uh
so I don't want to go go with this. Guy just
came up with this is pretty good, but uh, I
think we are Golf requires tremendous reservoirs of patients and
planning and actually teamwork to get through something. You know,

(52:22):
if you and I go around for around to golf
and so we're playing, you know, in a match at
our do you play Whisper Chain or where do you play?
Play a Phoenix country club? Oh wow? Uh, it's Jessica
Marksberry's husband. Is he still he's there? Yeah? Great, unbelievable guy, Paul.
He uh, he's he's got the accident. They just had
a second they just had a second child, and he's

(52:43):
still out there. He's still out there making sure everything's running.
You know. I mean, there's still golf to be played
in this state, at least for the time am on Tuesday.
I know everything's changing minutes a minute, but as of
right now, there's a there's golf to be played. But yeah,
it's it's it's a fabulous fan thest Golf Course. Uh yeah,
well so so Paul's wife is my colleague Jessica Marksbury

(53:07):
one of the great people on this world. But anyway,
the point being is that the very things that draw
us to golf, um and part of it is playing
by the rules and doing our part, you know, leaving
that bunker in better shape than when you walked into it,
are the very things that I'll get it through this, uh,
you know, through this unfortunate episode that we're in. But
we but we will get through it, and we'll have

(53:27):
golf before too long. Here, as I let you go,
we have nothing going on in terms of sports. As
you said, we're sitting around just passing the time with
whatever we do to pass the time. If it's a puzzle,
if you're playing chess, if you're starting a new hobby
or a new book. You're a man that is not
ventured into the social media world. Are we getting closer

(53:49):
to social media for for for this reporter, No, not
at all. I thought maybe Simon and Schuster would push
it towards it with the book coming out, But you've
always avoided Twitter. I'm impressed. I did say, yeah, I
have no interest. I did say that one of my
bosses at Sports Illustrator before I left Sports Sollstor went
to Golf magazine and golf dot com with my friend

(54:10):
and Colin Alan Ship Knuk and and others. Uh uh
and that was a lifeline given where sports solsittors right now.
And uh, I want to thank Howard missing every opportunity
to get Jack Cooks is business part of the bought
Golf magazine golf dot Com from sports solicitor. But anyway,
one of my former bosses said he had me on
the phone for something. I said, so, look, if you're
thinking about firing me, because you know I'm not doing

(54:32):
any social media, could you let me know ahead of
time because I will start if that's what I need
to do to keep my job. I don't really want to.
And the guy's like, no, I understand you're not on
it at all. And Ship knucks on it too much.
It's a perfect balance. Yeah. Well, he says he's taking
a page from from him ideas and me of you know,
wanting to do us of it. Uh, but I do.

(54:53):
I just like to express myself in other ways. I
guess it's got the point. But I'm I'm I'm glad
for people who do get something out of it. And
I think any way that people. I'm not negative and
I think I know, I think people need to communicate
with one another, and I think that changes over time.
And I'm a big user of email and people are
you know my emails writ in the book or you
know it's very available online as well, and anybody who

(55:14):
writes to me, I pretty much right back to everybody
writes to me, because I love connecting with people who
connect to the written work. Your email address is literally
in the back of the book. You can check it out.
The Second Life a Tiger was Michael Bamberger. I appreciate it.
Read the book, you'll love it. It'll bring you back
to a happier time in our lives when the Masters
was on and Tiger was battling it out with some

(55:36):
other superstars, and you weave through his life and it
is a crazy, crazy what life at forty four and
we can only hope to see more and more of it.
I appreciate the time, my friend, and we'll catch up
soon down the road. Jane, I appreciate the time. I mean,
you've done me a great favor here, give me a
little break and uh and letting me talk about the book.
So I appreciate it, so, thank you very much. We're

(55:56):
gonna take a quick break and be right back. A
big thanks to Michael Bamberger for his time. As I
mentioned to start, please, if you're a reader, if you're
someone that likes golf and likes golf books, check out
The Second Life of Tiger Woods. I promise you you'll
enjoy it. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate that

(56:18):
as well. Send me a note on Instagram at the
Clubhouse Pod. If you're at home and you'd like a
Clubhouse Pod sticker. If you want one of those, go
on Instagram at the Clubhouse Pod. Send the note. I'll
send one. It's the least I can do for spending
an hour with me every couple of weeks or so.
I hope you guys have a safe and healthy and

(56:40):
smart rest of your week, and we'll be back next week.
I've got a few of these in the can already,
so hopefully there will be more consistent clubhouses as we
go on. That's my hope. Nothing else to do. My
studio here is at my house. That's where I record.
Let's keep them going. Have a great week. The Clubhouse

(57:04):
was Shane Bacon as a production of I heart Radio.
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