October 27, 2020 • 52 mins
In this episode of the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon, Shane is joined by the CEO of the USGA, Mike Davis! Mike reflects about his time with the USGA and talks about his next challenge to pursue a lifelong passion for golf course design and construction. Mike also weighs in on the controversial issue of distance in golf. Follow Shane on Twitter @ShaneBacon.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon, a production of
I Heart Radio. Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon.
I am your host, Shane Bacon, and we have a
good one this week. Shocking. I said it again every time,
(00:25):
but it is a good one. Mike Davis, the CEO
of the U s g A and a man that
is about to move from in charge of the United
States Golf Association to golf course design and having to
go out in the dirt, push some hills with a dozer,
get dirty. Life's about the change. I'm excited to see
what happens with Mike Davison golf course design once uh
(00:47):
his tenure wraps up at the end of next year
with the U s g A. Never had Mike on
have worked closely with Mike over the years when we
had a chance to broadcast all those championships, and I
have gotten to be pals with him. He does a
great job at the U s g A, and I
cannot wait to see what he does with golf course
design because I feel like right now, if you call
you can call me crazy if you want, but we
(01:08):
are currently I feel like in an in a time
where this modern boom of course design. You know when
you go court Crnshaw and Gil and Tom and and
Doke and everybody, I mean, Ogilvie that this crew that's
gonna come out tigers doing a great job with golf
course design. I feel like right now, when we look
(01:29):
back on this era, it's gonna be one that I
feel like has a chance to be one b or
or the second in terms of how great the design
was during this time of our lives. And I mean
you go back to Tilling Haste and uh and seth
and and the unbelievable job they did it bringing you know,
(01:50):
the the old school architecture to light. And now are
these dream golf courses we all get a chance to play,
or hopefully get to play for goodness sakes if we're
ever invited, or know we just happened upon one, like
I did a blue mound last month in Wisconsin. You know,
it's exciting to do that. And I'm hoping that this
error we're seeing right now is going to be the
same in Mike and Tom are going to be in
(02:11):
that crew and they're gonna be out there, you know,
designing golf courses and you get a chance to to
play golf course by a man that's set up all
these U S Opens is pretty dang exciting. So it
was very happy that Mike joined me. We touched on,
you know, his decision to go into design. We touched
on what it was like to set up US opens,
the good, the bad, and ugly of that. We talked
about distance for a good chunk, also about the US
(02:33):
Open Rota and where we might be going with that.
So we kind of hit on a whole bunch of stuff.
I hope you guys really enjoy a big thanks to
all the feedback on the Phil Mickelson podcast. If you
miss that one, make sure to go back and check
that out. That was the last episode. But yeah, let's
get into it with Mike Davis. We welcome into the
clubhouse for the first time, Matt Mike Davis, the CEO
of the U S g A Mike just for a
little bit longer. The title not gonna be it's been
(02:55):
next to your name for quite a while. And uh
and you're moving on to a golf Worst Designer. How
excited are you for for what's up ahead for you? Well, Shane,
first of all, great to be with you and Listen,
here's what I would say it when I do leave
the U s J in about fourteen months, it indeed
will be bitter sweet. It's been a wonderful organization to
(03:19):
work with and you know, I just I love the
game and at the very root of the U s J,
it's mission is is for the betterment of the game.
So you know, everything that we do, whether we succeed
at it or not, sometimes I suppose you can question,
but listen, at the heart of it, it is about
making the game better. And we do so many good
things for the game, and a lot of things frankly
(03:41):
people don't even know. But it will be it'll be
tough because it will have been thirty two years at
the U s g A and you know, kind of
growing up in the championship side of things and the
and the rules of golf side of things, and then
eventually you know, um running you know things acutive director
and CEO for for eleven of the years. Um it's
(04:04):
going to be sad that. Listen. I'm incredibly excited for
the next chapter in life, and it's a you know,
golf course design is always something I've had interesting. I mean,
going back to even my junior golf days of stuodling holes,
and and I've been somebody that I've always paid much
more attention to the golf course and how it's designed,
(04:25):
the grasses and thinking about why designers did certain things,
and what makes a really great golf course and what
makes an average course. And I've always been much more
focused than that is than what I shoot when I play,
or how my swing is, or it's just it's something
that's interested me and I and I remember when I
(04:45):
took over as executive director in two thousand and eleven.
At the beginning, I um, I knew I was probably
only going to do this for ten years, and I
talked to my wife about that, and at the time
I really did think that, Listen, I'm going to regret
it if I don't try some golf course design at
some point. And so anyway, we'll see, we'll see what happens.
(05:06):
But I'm excited. I was reading up on some things
you'd said when you made this announcement. I was diving
into your bio. You know you you joined the USG
back in n of course, if people don't know you're joining.
Tom Fossio the second Tom Fassio's nephew and affirmed that
you guys have you guys have teamed up on and
Fasio and Davis golf course design is going to be
the name of that. I I didn't realize how much
(05:29):
of a dream job what you currently and have done
over the last years with the U s g A was.
I didn't realize how passionate you were for golf course design.
You know, I was a guy Mike that that when
I was a kid, I would record, you know, sports
games and listen to the announcers. That was something I
always was interested in as a kid, and so you know,
when I finally got a chance to actually call live sport,
(05:51):
it was it was really a pinch me moment. Personally,
I'm not sure I realized how much of it the
pinch me moment must have happened for you when you
first got assigned, you know, setting up a US Open
and U s g A championships. What was that like
for you? Now knowing how impactful the golf course in
general was to you, even as a as a kid
(06:12):
when you're doodling on your notebooks, how big was that
when you when you first got this job. Yes, Shane
a great question in the sense that there have been
so many to to use your you know, descriptive pinched
me moments that I've had. Me when I first started,
there was a guy, p J. Boatrice, who was one
of the people that that did hire me at U
(06:33):
s J. And you know, he was a legend golf administrator.
And I remember even in my first year getting to
go around looking at you know, because one of my
first jobs was working with clubs that were hosting the
US Open in the U S Amitor and the Senior
Open and Walker Cup and so on, and so you
can imagine I was getting a chance to go to
(06:54):
somebody truly great golf course, not only in this country,
but you know, around the world. And for me, those
were always and still to this day, our pinchry moments.
I mean, listen, I you know, we've those of us
in golf, particularly in my position that you know, I've
gotten to know, whether you know, dinner at Byron Nelson's house,
(07:16):
or playing golf with Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas, or Anica
Store and Stam or just you know, getting to know
a lot of greats in the game. Those have all
been such an honor and I've treasured those moments. But
you know, for me, seeing some of the great golf
forces affect many of the golf, great golf courses around
the world, I could have never done without just access
(07:36):
that the us J has provided. And I've gotten to
know so many of at least the living architects, and
for me, those have been pinched me moments. I mean,
I just the chance to get to know some of
these and kind of picked their minds is for me,
it's it's you know, listen, this this has been a
job in a lot of regards, but there have been
(07:57):
so many moments I just keep thinking of myself, I
can't believe I'm getting the opportunity to do that. And
so as I say, seeing some of the world great
golf courses have been certainly one of those. And getting
no architects so like you with announcing this has been
a a great part of the job for me, you know,
these last thirty two years. Yeah, what have you learned
over the years setting up championships, setting up championship golf courses,
(08:20):
as you mentioned, going to the best golf courses in
the world and spending so much time there, what have
you learned from that experience that you will take with
you to course design. Well, listen, I've always felt whether
you're you know, at a club setting up for an event,
maybe it's a club championship or or you know it's
it's the it's the Tuesday with the men's league or
(08:42):
the women's league or whatever it might be. I think
first of all, we've set up at any level, you've
got to understand who you're setting the golf course up
for and what you want to accomplish. Um So, that's
part of it, just understanding and I know for me,
you know, trying to understand the difference what's of the
women's US Open players versus the men's US Open players.
(09:04):
I mean they hit the ball differently. They both both
genders hit it beautifully and hit it really solid. But
you know the men hit the ball in the air higher,
they in part more spin. So you have to understand,
you know, when when a ball hits the green, how
is it going to react? What are they capable of doing?
(09:25):
And um so, I think that's part of it. Another
part with the setting up is I really do believe
understanding agronomics. I mean, how do different grasses react? I
mean the mute is very different from bent grass, which
is very different from polanta, which is very different from
Kentucky bluegrass. And I think understanding how clubs um. You know,
(09:48):
for instance, wet rye grass, a club will just slide
through the rough beautifully. If it gets dry, it gets tacky.
On the flip side, Kentucky blue grass is almost the
opposite when gets dry, or it's easier to hit a
ball out of um when balls, I think understanding construction
on how when a ball hits a green, how's it
(10:09):
going to react when it starts to dry out. You know,
a bent grass, for example, on a putting green is
going to dry out much different than a polana in
terms of how the grass performs once it really is dry,
and you've got to be careful. Um. I think also
you know understanding um what weather does, I mean humidity,
(10:31):
the dew points, wins. You know, when you set a
golf course up, if you're supposed to get a north
wind and yet the accidentally or they missed the they
missed the call, and you get a south wind, you've
got to kind of think through what's what's the ramification there?
I mean, they're we're gonna have a situation where players
can't even reach the fairway on their drive or can't
(10:52):
hold a green when you're playing down and then the
last place. And I suppose for me, the part that's
been by far the most interesting and setting up golf
course is here is the architecture. It's what was what
was the architect intending a whole to be? And where
can you showcase architecture? Where can you what can you
change it on a daily basis that you really get
(11:12):
the players thinking. And so, you know, I listen, by
and large, we set up the US Open not terribly
different than it was in the nineteen fifties or nineteen twenties.
It's a complete test of golf. Uh you know, you
kind of as they say, you want to get every
club in the bag dirty. You want to test accuracy,
you want you want to you want to test their
(11:34):
their recovery skills, their short game skills, their ability to
control their distance, the spin and and how they handle
their nerves and course management all that. But I think
that if you can really get the players thinking during around,
it's it's just going to add to the test of golf.
And so I, I you know, always looked at it
(11:57):
from an architectural standpoint of saying, what are the options here?
I mean you might have a putting Green Shaine where
you'd say, listen, there's no way you're gonna put a
whole location um old tucked over in that corner if
they're having to hit four and five irons in. And
so maybe if on that day that you do want
to tuck it, maybe you say, listen, let's move the
(12:18):
team ground up and let's tease them a little bit.
Let let's give them a different drives on instead of
every day where they get in a routine of saying,
I know this is a driver every day off the tea,
or I know it's a three wood every day off
the tea. You know, I think that's part of the setup,
is to take all those to the architecture, the agonomics,
the meteorology, and just what the players are capable, and
(12:39):
then you try to put it together. And you know,
even if you go because it is part science and
it's part art, and and you do all that and
you still might not get it right. And and as P. J.
Boatwright told me more than thirty years ago, you guys, Mike,
you you're never going to get a pad on the shoulder.
If you get seventy one out of seventy two whole locations, right,
(13:02):
remember that. And that's been you know, frankly, that's the
challenge of the Men's and Women's US Open is that
we set it up closer to the edge than any
other event out there, so it's easier to cross over
that edge and have things not quite go right to
where well executed shots aren't rewarded. So but it's been
(13:23):
listening overall fun just because I've I've gotten to see
so many of these great golf courses and some of
the great players of all time, and it's it's been
a really, really an honor. Yeah, I feel like, you know,
going from a position of setting up a championship golf
course for the best in the world versus what you're
(13:45):
gonna do, which is designed golf courses for everybody, for
for all levels of golfer, I feel like there's got
to be a mentality. I'm sure you and Tom have
talked at length about this, But I was just at
Aaron Hills a couple of weeks ago. You know, I
love Aaron Hills. I loved that US Open. I've hot
it was just excellent start to finish. I love the
idea of going to different golf courses, you know, that
(14:05):
was something we saw a few years ago, in particular
with Chambers Bay of course and Aaron Hills, even going
back to Beth Page and Tory Pines where we'll be
returning to next year for the US Open. You know,
all these these golf courses that are allowed to play
for public, not just a private golf course, but Aaron
Hills is a championship golf course. It is a tough
test to golf for the best in the world, and
it allows non championship golf to be played their year round.
(14:28):
And I think of of the other end of the
spectrum being kind of the Kaiser approach right to Bannon
Dunes and all of the properties he's put together. Bannon
Dun's just hoping the host of the U S Amateur.
But you know, Bannon Dunes is the place that I
can take my friends that are handicaps and they can
get around maybe losing one ball or two, and they
can make some pars and maybe make a birdie and
(14:49):
really have that highlight moment. Where are you leaning in
terms of the mentality for your design firm knowing that
championship golfers championship golf, but also these days we are
seeing design firms lean a little bit more towards the
everyday golfer and making sure their experience is awesome. Listen,
I think Shane, you beautifully describe what what to me
(15:12):
is one of the wonderful attributes of golf is that
you play on golf courses that are very different in
terms of their design. They're you know, they're agronomics. Weather
can change obviously a golf course day to day, and
I do think that's one of the beauties that sets
golf off apart from other sports. I mean, listen, yes,
(15:37):
there are different basketball courts, but by and large, same dimensions,
same height of the rim, um, same thing with baseball.
With golf, you know, you have desire to go to
a band of dunes are in Aron Hills because of
the golf course. Otherwise, if they were all the same,
(15:58):
you wouldn't do that. And so to me, um, that's
what makes are one of the things that makes our
games so intriguing and so specific to me what I like. UM.
And it's kind of funny because Tom Fazzie and I
have talked about this for probably twenty five years going,
and um, I think it'll be a nice balance because
(16:18):
I tend to to want to think about how do
you make a golf course is playable as you can
for the beginner, for the average day golfer, that is
there a way to also make it strategic and fun
for the really good player that has great control of
his or her golf ball. And and so I would
(16:38):
tend to say I like wider golf courses. I like angles.
I like the ability to bounce balls into greens and
that's not not as if you have to do it
eighteen times. But but you know, I listen, I love
big greens, but I also love small greens. I like
a golf course that maybe is a mix of those
where you may have a nine thousand square foot green
(17:00):
with undulation on it and different quadrants, but also you know,
a little postage stamp green if if if by and
large it's going to be short shots into it. I love.
You know, listen, a lot of people who like architecture
love half shot pars where you know it's it's almost
like a part three and a half, or it's a
par or it's a really short part three where everybody
(17:22):
virtually has a some kind of lofted club into it,
but you make it a little you know, maybe it's
a green with a set at a diagonal. That's that's
you know, not deep, and or it's you know, it's
risk reward par fives, or maybe maybe it's a drobable
par four, or maybe it's a part four and a
half where it is a par four but you've got
(17:42):
to hit your two very best to get there. And
so I take the like the the width, the angles,
and uh, It's funny because a lot of people and
Tomm and I announced this, they were kind of thinking
maybe the opposite where Tom loves just I was tough
testing golf, and he's very good. He's done some courses
(18:03):
that are just marvelous in there, and so I think
it'll be a nice balance because people inherently think with
me that US Open it's going to be narrow, fairways, higher, rough,
impossible anything but that I get out the US Open
courses now and I'm like, che's I'm glad I don't
have to play this because I I could. I felt
like that a little bit in in thirty Mile Winds
(18:25):
at Aaron Hills the other day. I can promise you
that you know you one thing, I now, knowing what
you're getting into and what you're going to do with
with the rest of your golf career, if you will,
I go back to Chambers Bay Mike a lot, because
you know, I feel like, for whatever reason, Chambers Bays
like a curse word in and around golf because people
(18:45):
remember the not great stuff about that US Open. I mean,
I think it's one of the most underrated U s
Opens we've ever had, you know, not just from the drama,
but the golf course and specifically what you did in
terms of the creativity of that set up. And I
just wanted you to give us kind of a look
into how that process worked and what you were thinking
(19:05):
with the changing of the pars and the changing of
the teams. You know, you had a Part three where
you could play two different team grounds, which completely changed
the whole in terms of how you approach it. And
then you had a Hole in eighteen where it was
a Part four and a Part five depending on where
your teet off that day. I I, as someone watching
and calling it, loved it. What was what was? What
(19:26):
do you look back on and think about when you
when you think in terms of chambers based specifically, and
the way you decided to get real creative with the
way a US Open looked. I'm glad to hear you
say that, because you know, listen it first hosted the
two thousand and ten U S s s Amit or one
by Peter your line and Shange. That golf course played perfect.
(19:48):
It was beautiful, It was dried out, it was pan
it was all fine fest you ball was bouncing you.
You had to be incredibly strategic the way you played it.
You had to understand that it may be a hundred
and sixty seven yards down when to the to the flagstick,
(20:08):
but you'd have to think, I want to hit it
a certain trajectory. I want to land at a hundred
forty nine yards and have it released onto the green. Um.
It just it played beautifully, and I think one of
the things that happened on I think it did happen
and in two thousand fifteen for the US Open, is
that through the winner we we end up having because
(20:31):
of some severe winter that year, the green they in
some ways they kind of lost the greens and it
wasn't you know, certainly wasn't the ground staff or superintendent's fault.
But what ended up coming in that spring was an
annual Polanta, a very very thick, bladed almost weed that
came in. And when you coupled that with fine festive greens,
(20:54):
the greens just putted and now just say it, they
put it horribly. They looked bad. And so if you
go back and look at, you know, the tapes of
the the USA Ameur, everybody loved how it played and
it played beautiful. So a lot of it just was
some you know, say what you will. It was some
bad luck with agronomics and then that. And rightfully so
(21:16):
the players didn't like cutting on greens that weren't true.
They were bouncy and and they were just not good looking.
And we didn't like it either. But I think that
in some of the ways gets to what you were saying,
is that it took away from the architecture of the
course and the setup of the course. But listen, I
will also say this is that as much as people
(21:37):
may look at that, look at what it defined. I mean,
we we got Dustin Johnson and Jordan's beef. You couldn't
have had a more exciting finish and and again, you
know again we can all look back and be critical
and listen, I have too, So it's not as if
undnying everything. It's just that it's unfortunate. That's some you know,
(21:58):
a tough winner left us tough Greens, and I think
the course just didn't It didn't show the way it
should have shown. And and uh, but I have no
doubt at some point we'll get back there with well,
we're already got to go back there with more championships.
But I can't imagine it's it was such a great
community and it's a public golf course, it's built on sand.
(22:22):
You know, it's Pacific Northwest. We've got great support. So
I've got to think we'll get back there, and I
hope we get back there at some point in the future.
It was awesome. I I loved I loved it from
start to finish. And and like you said, I know
the Greens weren't perfect, but I mean drama wise, when
you think about what happened, I mean Louis Bertie six,
I think you pready six of his last seven, and
you had Rory and Adam Scott firing these crazy numbers early.
(22:43):
And then of course we get the late drama with
with DJ and Speith. I mean I was standing probably
twenty ft from speed when he hit that second shot
into eighteen, and you know, with how the grandstands were
set up, you know, perfectly behind the green. It was
just it was just awesome. It was everything I feel
like you would want to a can inclusion of a championship,
and so you know, I always I always give a
(23:04):
lot of kudos and credit to Chamber's Bay in that
US Open, because I feel like it's a little bit underrated.
I do need to get into everybody's favorite topic right
now in golf, Mike, and that's distance. People love talking
about distance, and I figured, if I've got you on,
we've got to tackle this as well. You've been at
the U s J since nineteen ninety. I mentioned if
we go back to, the average driving distance on the
(23:24):
PGA Tour was two d and sixty two point three.
Today it's two nineties six point four. I mean that's
the average. I mean, I don't think you need to
be a math expert. I know I'm not one, but
obviously there's a big jump in that if you go
back to and of course this is on the heels
of what we just went through with Bryson and wing Foot.
So where are we going with this boom and distance?
(23:45):
If you will? And do you see it as a
good thing, a bad thing, or just part of golf
that we've seen over the last hundred hundred and fifty years.
The distance will always be a thing that gets that
improves as the players improve. Well, listen, it's a complex issue.
It's always been a complex issue. And when I say
always change, this issue has been for at least a
(24:08):
hundred and twenty five years. Hundred and twenty five years,
this has been an issue. So this is not something
that has just happened of late. This is not contrary
to what some people think. This is not something that
just came up with, you know, the two piece golf
ball and the big headed titanium clubs. You know, you
(24:31):
go back to the time going from the gut of
percha of ball to the Haskel ball um there was
roughly a twenty increase when that happened. We think about that,
I mean, what we saw going from you know, think
about the early nineties nineties when when the better player
was using a ballotap you know, wound golf ball, with
(24:53):
a steel shaft and hitting a wooden driver. Um, you know,
you think about from that time to now, I don't
know what we've had, maybe an eight percent increase or
perhaps ten. So these things have happened over the years,
and you know, we we've dug up quite a bit
of material on this. And I think it was in
(25:14):
nine nineteen eleven. If I read you the minutes from
the U S. G A Equipment you know meeting, then
you swear you would think it's today because these issues
have been going on and on and listen, you know,
I guess I'll start off by saying that it's an
incredibly important issue. I mean, I personally am passionate about
(25:34):
it because I think that this is It's not as
if we have an emergency, but I do believe strongly,
and then certainly the U, S, J, N rn A,
you know, as organizations agree with this that it's an
issue that needs to be dealt with. How it gets
dealt with, I mean, I think that's the process we're
working through. But as we started what we call a
(25:57):
called the Distance Insights Initiative about up two and a
half years ago, we spent basically two years researching what
has happened relative to distance over the last hundred plus years,
what were the causes of it, and what were the
effects of it um and where are we now and
where is the game going? And really put data, i
(26:21):
mean factual data behind it, which, frankly is where so
many people people have strong thoughts about this subject. It complicated.
Some people think that what's happened with distances disastrous for
the game continues to be disastrous. Other people would suggest
that the genies out of the bag and let athletes
be athletes, let technology go where it's gonna go, and
(26:45):
deal with it. But you know, the reason we think
it's so important is it's listen, it's not just about
the athlete. It's not just about how you're swinging. This
is much bigger. This is this is how distance is
affecting golf courses around the world, and folks, this is
not just about the PGA Tour, the European Tour, in
(27:08):
other words, the male elite player. If it was just that,
it would kind of be a non issue because you
can find that, you know, the thirty five thousand golf
courses around the world, You can find golf courses that
can change to meet that very small group of players
means small but influential and important. And this is about
you know, when you look at the data, it's crystal clear, Shane,
(27:33):
is that you've got over a hundred years cycle of
increasing hitting distances. And then what's happened on because of
that is golf courses for over a hundred years have
been lengthening along and it's had a profound effect on
golf horses. The golf courses are spending more money to change.
It's causing increases and operating costs. It's it's causing us
(27:55):
to use more resources like water or gasoline. The memore
and this this notion that you know, every generation has
to hit the ball further than the last, and consequencely,
consequently golf horses have to Lengthen we just believe it
needs to end because it's it's just not good for
(28:16):
the game. And we believe distance is relative. It's always
been relative. And Shane, if you and I go out
and play, whether it's with today's technology or we we
we wind things back and you and I decided to
go out and play with Hickory's in a feathery ball,
You're always going to hit the ball further than me,
you're you're a better golfer than me, and and distances relative.
(28:37):
And this to me is getting into how do we
protect golf horses not only now, this isn't a rollback,
this is actually looking forward. And so to me, it's
all about having a healthy game and enjoyable game that's
sustainable game for many generations. And where we've just seen
(28:58):
trends and we've seen data is crystal clear about this.
As I said that it's just not good for the
game to be forcing billions of dollars worth of change
just because of increased distance. And again, this is not
a PGA Tour issue. This is an issue for all
of the game because it was just the PGA Tour issue.
(29:21):
Why are we seeing golf courses around the world that
aren't even hosting tour events lengthened so, you know, listen,
to put another way, all we're trying to do, shame
is fit the game on golf courses. We we want
the equipment to fit and the players to fit on
golf courses. We're not trying to take away athleticism and
(29:42):
and and maybe it put the you know, a final
comment would just be one of their sport would allow
their arenas to have to change the way golf is.
You don't see baseball changing stadiums because they're using titanium
bats and hot baseball. That's exactly what has happened with
the game of golf and and it and it's been detrimental.
(30:05):
It's cost And for for those golfers that would say, listen,
I'm not the problem, don't penalize me, just do something
about the mail elite golfer, they don't get it because
it's causing courses everywhere to change. Even if you don't
play the facts, you're having to pay the cost the environment,
(30:26):
you know, paying the cost extra time to play courses.
Is so when you look at the data, a rational
person would say, you know what, I hadn't thought about
it big picture enough. I get it now now in
terms of where we go, you know, there's a process
to this. I honestly can't sit here today and say
I know the tactics that are going to use. I
(30:47):
really don't know. In fact, much of this is probably
going to be done when I'm gone from the U.
S J. But um, but I think that what we
want to do is work with all the constituents. We
want to work with, you know, we want to work
with golf course architects, we want to work with the tours,
We want to work with the golf course equipment manufacturers
(31:08):
and say, how can we look at the long term
betterment of the game. We want to make sure that
we're not doing anything to harm the recreational player. Because
listen to what I know. If we went into a
room and we said, okay, a thousand golfers, everybody raise
your hand of who would like to hit the ball
less distance, we have one personal one, And I think
(31:31):
that if they understood that golf, you know, distance is relative,
and that you know something one day is done, you
just go up and play from a shorter te and
and anyway. So so that's you know, I guess a
wordy way to to give you a perspective on it.
It's a it's a complicated issue, but I for one,
feel strongly that something needs to get done long term,
(31:54):
but in a way that works for you know, all constituencies. Yeah,
I think that you hit on something. I I personally
am not one of those golf people that really get
up in arms about a lot of the things that
I think golfers now get up in arms about. But
I will say the thing that I get scared of,
and you've touched on this is you know you, my
(32:15):
my buddy Andy Johnson, who does a great job at
the Fried Egg and and uh and the shotgun start
was talking after Wingfoot about all the money that went
into extending the sixteen pole, right, I mean, you've got
to you talked about it. It's expensive to make golf
courses longer, especially these historic golf courses like Wingfoot, And
you put all this money and effort and time into
making that tea on sixteen, you know, thirty yards for
(32:37):
their back and Bryson hits driver wedge and you kind
of sit there and go was that all worth it? Right?
I mean, if he's still hitting a wedge into this
part four, it's kind of a waste of our time.
I keep thinking about this with Augusta and thirteen. You know,
people have been pining are they gonna extend thirteen thirteen
a driver wedge part five for a lot of these
guys now, And I keep thinking to myself, well, I
(32:57):
know they have the money. I know they can extend teen,
thirty or forty yards, but what's that really gonna do.
Is that going to do anything? I feel like, no,
I mean gone or the days we're seeing you know,
players haven't hit two and three irons into thirteen and
fifteen off hanging lines at the Masters. That's just not
really where golf is right now. And that's the one
thing that I get scared of as a golf fan
(33:18):
is it feels like the integrity of the way the
golf course was meant to be played isn't played like
that anymore. Yeah, I mean there's so many examples of
that chain. It's you know a lot of times what
we're seeing now. And again, let just take the focus
off just the tour player. Let's let's think about just
just the regular golf force that over the years has
(33:39):
felt compelled because of what the longer players are doing
at that particular golf course to change. So they either
say I need to build another tea further back. Maybe
they have the land, but they have to run the
irrigation back there. Now it's another tea to mow, it's
longer to walk for the player to get back there,
so it ends to the pace of play, or maybe
(34:00):
they have to purchase the land, or sometimes when they
don't have the land. What do they do? Well, let's
go ahead and completely um wed bunkers. Let's let's push
the bunkers further down the whole. Look, that's an unneeded expense.
It really does change nates for the architecture. It might
not work quite right for the average golfer. And now
(34:23):
maybe you compromise the architecture there. But the point of
it is is that we all want to hit the
ball further. We don't want to do anything to compromise
these wonderful athletes, and we want to allow them to
showcase their skills. But why do we need to continually
add expense to the game and some in some place,
in some cases compromise the architectural integrity for some players
(34:47):
who play that golf course. And it's just as you
look at the data, it's so crystal clear that something
needs to get done. And so I really think it's
so obvious that I have a lot of faith it
will get done. I just don't know exactly how it's
going to get done and how it's going to get
done in a way that makes sure that the average
(35:08):
golfer continues to love the game and it works for
the elite golfer, and it works for the tours and
it doesn't hurt equipment manufacturers, and so it can get done.
It's just listen, I look at that. What what we're
in right now is a stage where finally have crystal
clear data. We didn't have that data before. And I
(35:31):
think it just allows us to be processed, driven, in
fact driven as opposed to just you know, anecdotal. I
I'm okay with increased distance or I'm not okay with it.
It just it allows us as as an industry to
work together. We're gonna take a quick break and be
right back. Is there a gold standard? I've always wanted
(36:03):
to ask you this, Is there a gold standard championship
that people you know in the U s. G A
and the RNA and and even at Augusta you guys
kind of talk about still or eighty five. Is there
a championship that you guys consider this is the this
is the US Open or Women's Open that we want
a mirror all championships after you know, I that we
(36:28):
get this question. Um, maybe not put exactly that way,
but the question really is where does golf want to be?
What era and and when you think about it, and
I've read a good bit about it. I've talked to
players that were quite a bit older than me and
ones that are quite younger than me, and it seems
(36:49):
to be everybody's mindset tends to be what was golf
when I was growing up playing and that because listen,
I I I can remember dinner at one time I had,
going back close to maybe not seven or eight years ago,
I had literally a dinner with Arnold Palmer and Jack
(37:09):
Nick was just the three of us, and we were
talking about it, and I just I asked a lot
of questions, but I just listened, and it was fascinating
because the two of them are so passionate on this,
and they would, I think, if I were summarizing it,
they would tend to say when they were younger, when
they were playing their best golf. That was kind of
(37:30):
where golf needs to get back to. But you know,
if you go back Shane and read and you talk
about players of the Bob Jones era when they were
using hickory shafts and a different type of golf ball,
and all of a sudden, you know, in the nineteen
mid thirties, late thirties, when things started to move from
the hickory shaft to the steel shaft. You can read
(37:53):
the same comments back then about cheese. The game's going
to be ruined. There's a different school set that's needed.
Same thing. So the point is, if you ask a
young tour pro today or a young good player, they
never played the game with a ball that spun quite
as much. They never played the game with with per Simmons,
(38:15):
and where you really couldn't swing as hard as you
possibly can at golf ball because you couldn't control the
golf ball. There was a sweet spot was so much smaller.
They never played a game when you shortside yourself and
you can pull out a sixty four degree wedge, and
you know, when I was growing up playing competitively, no
one used more than fifty six degrees and there was
(38:37):
a big flange to it. And so when you shortside
of yourself, you were almost forced to open up the
blade and it was a risk your shot. And in
same way with hitting a short bunker shot, it was
just harder too. More skill Is that better worse? I
don't know, But what I do know is it's just different.
And so to answer your question, I really do think
(38:59):
it depends on your age and kind of where you
were at a time when you think this is how
golf should be, because I think it's generational nature. I
want to touch on the idea of US Open rhotas.
I mean, I I think you're either on one camp
or the other. I personally live in the camp that
I've loved the last twenty years of US Opens. I've
loved the fact that you'll occasionally get a Oakemon and
(39:22):
a Shinnakok mixed with an aeron Hills in Chambers Bay,
and I I enjoy that because I think the US
Open has a lot of faces, and I think it
could be hosted at a lot of different golf courses
and a lot of different looking championships. But I do
feel like we are moving towards, at least if you
look at the lineup over the next ten twelve years,
towards more of a US Open rota. Do you feel
(39:43):
like that's where we're gonna go. Where there's five or
ten golf courses that are hosting this championship, kind of
a revolving door of those golf courses are They're always
going to be these I don't want to call them random,
but these outside US Open hosted golf courses that will
occasionally get one of these championships. Well, Shane, I I
do the leave. You're gonna see a hybrid um and listen,
(40:03):
I don't know how long that will last. In my
thirty plush years at the U s J. You know,
just in that period of time, we've changed philosophies on
kind of where we go, when we go, and how
often we go. But I think that in the you know,
let's say the next decade or so, there is a
there's there's a view with the U s J. And
(40:25):
and frankly, a lot of that's come from talking to
players who play in the US Open, players who formally
played in the US Open, and saying, you know, what
do you think we should do? Where do you think
we should go? And so we've we've done a lot
of this based on their impact and good data research.
And I think that you start with the premise that
the United States has more great golf courses than any
(40:51):
place in the world, but by a long shine um.
So I think for US moving personally, moving the US
Open around not just geographically, but two different types of
golf courses. You know, you think about a pineers number
two that have those. You know, it's a wider golf course.
Now it doesn't have grass rough, it's got you know,
(41:11):
the the sandy kind of native areas. And then you've
got more traditional tree line golf forces like Wingfoot with
the high rough. You mentioned Chambers Bay. But I personally
love the fact that we go to this these this
country's greatest golf courses. And I mean, think about the Shane.
(41:31):
How many think about how many US open sites we
go to that are in the top courses in the
country is amazing in the world, in the world, and
so I I think you're going to continue to see
us go there. I think generally speaking, the U. S.
G A loves history traditions, so you're gonna see us
go to more of the old historic sites that you know,
(41:54):
maybe Bob Jones want one, or Ben Hogan or Jack
Nicholas or Tie the Woods, but you'll also see us
I don't I definitely don't think you're going to see
the U. S J abandoned newer courses. Um. I think personally,
I think that would be a giant mistake. I mean,
I suspect there could be courses not even built yet
that maybe in my lifetime you see a US Open
(42:17):
plate on. So nobody U s J is saying we
should abandoned new golf horses, because I think we all
believe that if it's if it's if it's a good
enough golf course and it can be a good test
to golf and it and it works operationally and it
does move us around geographically, that we can do that.
On the other hand, what what is you know, the
(42:38):
data really does say is that the players want us
to come back to some of the great golf courses
more often. They just they wanted to hit to Shinnicop
more often. They want to get the Pioneers more often,
they want to get the Pebble Beach more often, they
want to get the Oakmont more often. Um. And so
that's really when when people talk about a road up,
(43:01):
that's that's going to be. I think what you see
is just us getting back to the courses more often.
And you know, we were back at Wingfoot. It was
it took us fourteen years to get back from oh
six to two thousand and twenty, and so I think
we only had a fifteen sixteen seventeen players who had
played in two thousand and six. And I think there's
(43:21):
a belief that you know, allow the public, allowed the viewers,
allow the players to get to know a wingfoot better
by going them more often. So I think that's what
you'll see. But I really don't think you'll see And
I hope you don't see us a band and going
to um you know, newer courses or maybe you know, listen,
when we went to Marryon in two thousand and thirteen,
(43:44):
we hadn't been there since the early nineteen eighties, and
and here's one of the great historic treasures in golf,
and and to celebrate that, to allow golfers and and
the fans to see that again, I think it was
a great thing. And and I I hope we don't
see them. And we're going back to the country Club
in two thousand and twenty two. We hadn't been there
(44:06):
since you know, Curtis was on as Curtis Strange was
on his role wearing back to back opens and eighty
nine and ninety and it's one of the five founding
clubs of the U. S J. And I mean that
should be a marvelous US Open, And you know, we'll
celebrate history when we go back there. I'm looking at
the lineup now, I mean Tory Country Club, l A
c C, which is gonna be awesome, Pinehurst, Oakmon, Shinnikock, Pebble.
(44:28):
I mean the lineup is is kind of a heavy
hitter row, that's for sure, So I mean exciting stuff.
I do feel like, at least someone that was on
the broadcasting side of these championships, I do get the
sense that when they are at these historic places, these
as you said, these places that have seen the likes
of a Hogan and a Nelson and you know, a
sneed playing on the golf courses, it does elevate the
(44:51):
feel of the championship. So I agree with you. Now, Mike,
I'm gonna ask you a question, as Mike Davis, not
the CEO of the U s J. This is just
Mike Davis being Mike da What, in your opinion, is
the perfect championship golf course? For me, it's one that
really really allows players to showcase different parts of the game.
(45:14):
I guess I don't like the I love courses that
allow players to play a hole differently. So it's not
just a hundred and fifty six guys are gonna are
women are going to play a hole exactly the same way.
I love the idea that somebody might take a driver
and challenge a corner and somebody else takes something less
(45:37):
than a driver off. I like that that there's risk
reward where you can dangle a carrot and all of
a sudden say, listen, you can try it, and if
you succeed, you're gonna get rewarded. But if you try
it and don't succeed, you're going to be penalized more
than somebody who played conservatively. And so, you know, really
using all fourteen clubs in the bag and making the
(46:00):
players think. I mean, to me, that's one of the
things that separates average architecture from great architecture is it
really makes the players think, and it gives the player options, choices, angles.
And some of that's done by how a whole is routed.
Some of it's done by the green itself. Some of
(46:21):
it's done by how you set a hole up on
that particular day, how dry it is, what the wind doing,
where the whole location is, where the team markers are.
Some of it even how you prepare the rough. I mean,
do you want just pitch out rough? That really says
we are putting accuracy at a premium, or do you
(46:41):
want to watch somebody who says, listen, if you hit
it in the rough, you're going to get penalized. However,
we're going to allow you to show your shot making skills.
I mean, it's one of the reasons I really do
believe that Jack Nicholas was arguably is good or the
best US Open player on the men's side ever, is
(47:02):
that she not only managed his game well, but he
was exceptionally good at recovery out of the ruff. He
had that high swing plane, he opened the face of
this club, he took it up high, never released on
the club, and he just knew how to play out
a thick ruff. He didn't have a shallow swing. Think
about Tiger Woods, think about how great he's been at
(47:26):
recovery shots over the years, and and how exciting that. Then,
I mean, listen the lead up to Wingfleot this year,
when you go back and I did watch it, when
you watch two thousand six, and what Phil Nicholson did
beyond belief, how great he paid from a recovery standpoint,
because he really did not drive the ball well at all,
(47:46):
but yet his skill set and then the way the
course is set up allowed him to show that skill.
And to me, that's what I like in and I
just I like the course that creates excitement, and it
allows the players to take risk, will play conservative, and
and and it changed the course up on a daily basis.
(48:07):
I and I think there's a lot of places that
can do that. Alright, Mike, last question, looking back on
your tenure setting up these championships, what was your best
set up US Open in your opinion? Oh boy, this
is you having to pat yourself on the back. I
know it's uncomfortable. I know it's not the most fun
thing to do, but I'm assuming one pops up somewhere
(48:29):
in the front of the brain. Well, listen the one
I think that So I've done every US Open, not
not necessarily me personally setting up the golf course, but
every one since where Hailer, when one at McDonagh and
in that time period, and that's whatever one U s
so us SO I guess will be thirty one U
(48:50):
s opens um. The one that I thought was the
most intriguing is when Tiger wanted two thousand and eight.
I mean to think about up the change he gets
in the playoffs, against rock Omedia, who could not play
more different golf means the way they approached the game
and play the game two into the spectrum. They're two
(49:12):
wonderful people. But I look back on that one and
I think the the amount of drama in two thousand
eight Tory Pines, I just don't think it can be surpassed,
at least in those thirty one opens that I saw,
and some of it I think that the golf course,
the way it was set up, presented um did allow
(49:33):
from that allow for that. In others we just had
a stroke of good luck where you had Tiger on
a on a basically a broken leg, um, you know,
winning that Open, making shots that you just can't I
mean that round three where he makes two eagles on
the back nine, and you know, you think about that
(49:54):
cut to get him into the playoffs on the final
the seventy second hole, and then the excitement of the
Monday play. I hope it was. That was an unbelieable
US Open. I mean, that's that's right up there with
nineteen with Francis We met nineteen sixty with Arnold Palmer
at Cherry Hills when he's getting chased by you know,
an older Ben Hogan and an AMiner named Jack Nicholas.
(50:16):
And you think about some of the great US opens
of all time. I mean I would put two thousand
and eight up that with any of them. Yeah. That
it's every time you watch it, and every time you
have you see Tiger's put on the last tool makes it.
You see it bumping down the hill. You're like, this
is not going to go in, and it goes in
every time. And Dan had this unbelievable it was great. Mike,
(50:37):
I just want to let you know, once you get
out of the position you're in, you get into golf
course design, you're gonna have to reach out to you know,
idiots like me about coming out and checking out your
golf course. So I don't want you to lose these invitations.
You gotta send this media invite in once the golf
courses start to open, I would welcome that. It'll be
it'll be fun and interesting. I'm not sure what I'm
(50:58):
getting myself into totally, but looking forward to the challenge. Well.
I appreciate the time, Mike. Always excited to talk to
you and I've always wanted to have you on the podcast,
So thanks so much for the time. Okay, Shane, keep
up the great work. You're terrific at what you do,
and thanks so much. We're gonna take a quick break
and be right back. Two thumbs up and a big
(51:24):
thanks to Mike Davis for joining me and giving me
all that time. Always nice when people carve out, you know,
I mean forty five minutes of your day. When you're
a busy persons a lot, it's a lot of time,
and so I was thankful for that. I hope you
guys enjoyed it. If you like the show, rate and
review it if you could. It helps our show reach
more people and more eyeballs in and and air pods
(51:45):
if you will. Is a good thing for podcasts, so
you can follow the Clubhouse on Twitter and Instagram at
the Clubhouse pod. Follow that. We occasionally give giveaways, especially
around the holiday season, where we send out couzies and stickers,
maybe even a hatter two. So do that if you could,
and we'll be back next week. The Clubhouse was Shane
Bacon as a production of I Heart Radio. For more
(52:07):
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon, a production of
I Heart Radio. Welcome to the Clubhouse with Shane Bacon.
I am your host, Shane Bacon, and we have a
good one this week. Shocking. I said it again every time,
(00:25):
but it is a good one. Mike Davis, the CEO
of the U s g A and a man that
is about to move from in charge of the United
States Golf Association to golf course design and having to
go out in the dirt, push some hills with a dozer,
get dirty. Life's about the change. I'm excited to see
what happens with Mike Davison golf course design once uh
(00:47):
his tenure wraps up at the end of next year
with the U s g A. Never had Mike on
have worked closely with Mike over the years when we
had a chance to broadcast all those championships, and I
have gotten to be pals with him. He does a
great job at the U s g A, and I
cannot wait to see what he does with golf course
design because I feel like right now, if you call
you can call me crazy if you want, but we
(01:08):
are currently I feel like in an in a time
where this modern boom of course design. You know when
you go court Crnshaw and Gil and Tom and and
Doke and everybody, I mean, Ogilvie that this crew that's
gonna come out tigers doing a great job with golf
course design. I feel like right now, when we look
(01:29):
back on this era, it's gonna be one that I
feel like has a chance to be one b or
or the second in terms of how great the design
was during this time of our lives. And I mean
you go back to Tilling Haste and uh and seth
and and the unbelievable job they did it bringing you know,
(01:50):
the the old school architecture to light. And now are
these dream golf courses we all get a chance to play,
or hopefully get to play for goodness sakes if we're
ever invited, or know we just happened upon one, like
I did a blue mound last month in Wisconsin. You know,
it's exciting to do that. And I'm hoping that this
error we're seeing right now is going to be the
same in Mike and Tom are going to be in
(02:11):
that crew and they're gonna be out there, you know,
designing golf courses and you get a chance to to
play golf course by a man that's set up all
these U S Opens is pretty dang exciting. So it
was very happy that Mike joined me. We touched on,
you know, his decision to go into design. We touched
on what it was like to set up US opens,
the good, the bad, and ugly of that. We talked
about distance for a good chunk, also about the US
(02:33):
Open Rota and where we might be going with that.
So we kind of hit on a whole bunch of stuff.
I hope you guys really enjoy a big thanks to
all the feedback on the Phil Mickelson podcast. If you
miss that one, make sure to go back and check
that out. That was the last episode. But yeah, let's
get into it with Mike Davis. We welcome into the
clubhouse for the first time, Matt Mike Davis, the CEO
of the U S g A Mike just for a
little bit longer. The title not gonna be it's been
(02:55):
next to your name for quite a while. And uh
and you're moving on to a golf Worst Designer. How
excited are you for for what's up ahead for you? Well, Shane,
first of all, great to be with you and Listen,
here's what I would say it when I do leave
the U s J in about fourteen months, it indeed
will be bitter sweet. It's been a wonderful organization to
(03:19):
work with and you know, I just I love the
game and at the very root of the U s J,
it's mission is is for the betterment of the game.
So you know, everything that we do, whether we succeed
at it or not, sometimes I suppose you can question,
but listen, at the heart of it, it is about
making the game better. And we do so many good
things for the game, and a lot of things frankly
(03:41):
people don't even know. But it will be it'll be
tough because it will have been thirty two years at
the U s g A and you know, kind of
growing up in the championship side of things and the
and the rules of golf side of things, and then
eventually you know, um running you know things acutive director
and CEO for for eleven of the years. Um it's
(04:04):
going to be sad that. Listen. I'm incredibly excited for
the next chapter in life, and it's a you know,
golf course design is always something I've had interesting. I mean,
going back to even my junior golf days of stuodling holes,
and and I've been somebody that I've always paid much
more attention to the golf course and how it's designed,
(04:25):
the grasses and thinking about why designers did certain things,
and what makes a really great golf course and what
makes an average course. And I've always been much more
focused than that is than what I shoot when I play,
or how my swing is, or it's just it's something
that's interested me and I and I remember when I
(04:45):
took over as executive director in two thousand and eleven.
At the beginning, I um, I knew I was probably
only going to do this for ten years, and I
talked to my wife about that, and at the time
I really did think that, Listen, I'm going to regret
it if I don't try some golf course design at
some point. And so anyway, we'll see, we'll see what happens.
(05:06):
But I'm excited. I was reading up on some things
you'd said when you made this announcement. I was diving
into your bio. You know you you joined the USG
back in n of course, if people don't know you're joining.
Tom Fossio the second Tom Fassio's nephew and affirmed that
you guys have you guys have teamed up on and
Fasio and Davis golf course design is going to be
the name of that. I I didn't realize how much
(05:29):
of a dream job what you currently and have done
over the last years with the U s g A was.
I didn't realize how passionate you were for golf course design.
You know, I was a guy Mike that that when
I was a kid, I would record, you know, sports
games and listen to the announcers. That was something I
always was interested in as a kid, and so you know,
when I finally got a chance to actually call live sport,
(05:51):
it was it was really a pinch me moment. Personally,
I'm not sure I realized how much of it the
pinch me moment must have happened for you when you
first got assigned, you know, setting up a US Open
and U s g A championships. What was that like
for you? Now knowing how impactful the golf course in
general was to you, even as a as a kid
(06:12):
when you're doodling on your notebooks, how big was that
when you when you first got this job. Yes, Shane
a great question in the sense that there have been
so many to to use your you know, descriptive pinched
me moments that I've had. Me when I first started,
there was a guy, p J. Boatrice, who was one
of the people that that did hire me at U
(06:33):
s J. And you know, he was a legend golf administrator.
And I remember even in my first year getting to
go around looking at you know, because one of my
first jobs was working with clubs that were hosting the
US Open in the U S Amitor and the Senior
Open and Walker Cup and so on, and so you
can imagine I was getting a chance to go to
(06:54):
somebody truly great golf course, not only in this country,
but you know, around the world. And for me, those
were always and still to this day, our pinchry moments.
I mean, listen, I you know, we've those of us
in golf, particularly in my position that you know, I've
gotten to know, whether you know, dinner at Byron Nelson's house,
(07:16):
or playing golf with Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas, or Anica
Store and Stam or just you know, getting to know
a lot of greats in the game. Those have all
been such an honor and I've treasured those moments. But
you know, for me, seeing some of the great golf
forces affect many of the golf, great golf courses around
the world, I could have never done without just access
(07:36):
that the us J has provided. And I've gotten to
know so many of at least the living architects, and
for me, those have been pinched me moments. I mean,
I just the chance to get to know some of
these and kind of picked their minds is for me,
it's it's you know, listen, this this has been a
job in a lot of regards, but there have been
(07:57):
so many moments I just keep thinking of myself, I
can't believe I'm getting the opportunity to do that. And
so as I say, seeing some of the world great
golf courses have been certainly one of those. And getting
no architects so like you with announcing this has been
a a great part of the job for me, you know,
these last thirty two years. Yeah, what have you learned
over the years setting up championships, setting up championship golf courses,
(08:20):
as you mentioned, going to the best golf courses in
the world and spending so much time there, what have
you learned from that experience that you will take with
you to course design. Well, listen, I've always felt whether
you're you know, at a club setting up for an event,
maybe it's a club championship or or you know it's
it's the it's the Tuesday with the men's league or
(08:42):
the women's league or whatever it might be. I think
first of all, we've set up at any level, you've
got to understand who you're setting the golf course up
for and what you want to accomplish. Um So, that's
part of it, just understanding and I know for me,
you know, trying to understand the difference what's of the
women's US Open players versus the men's US Open players.
(09:04):
I mean they hit the ball differently. They both both
genders hit it beautifully and hit it really solid. But
you know the men hit the ball in the air higher,
they in part more spin. So you have to understand,
you know, when when a ball hits the green, how
is it going to react? What are they capable of doing?
(09:25):
And um so, I think that's part of it. Another
part with the setting up is I really do believe
understanding agronomics. I mean, how do different grasses react? I
mean the mute is very different from bent grass, which
is very different from polanta, which is very different from
Kentucky bluegrass. And I think understanding how clubs um. You know,
(09:48):
for instance, wet rye grass, a club will just slide
through the rough beautifully. If it gets dry, it gets tacky.
On the flip side, Kentucky blue grass is almost the
opposite when gets dry, or it's easier to hit a
ball out of um when balls, I think understanding construction
on how when a ball hits a green, how's it
(10:09):
going to react when it starts to dry out. You know,
a bent grass, for example, on a putting green is
going to dry out much different than a polana in
terms of how the grass performs once it really is dry,
and you've got to be careful. Um. I think also
you know understanding um what weather does, I mean humidity,
(10:31):
the dew points, wins. You know, when you set a
golf course up, if you're supposed to get a north
wind and yet the accidentally or they missed the they
missed the call, and you get a south wind, you've
got to kind of think through what's what's the ramification there?
I mean, they're we're gonna have a situation where players
can't even reach the fairway on their drive or can't
(10:52):
hold a green when you're playing down and then the
last place. And I suppose for me, the part that's
been by far the most interesting and setting up golf
course is here is the architecture. It's what was what
was the architect intending a whole to be? And where
can you showcase architecture? Where can you what can you
change it on a daily basis that you really get
(11:12):
the players thinking. And so, you know, I listen, by
and large, we set up the US Open not terribly
different than it was in the nineteen fifties or nineteen twenties.
It's a complete test of golf. Uh you know, you
kind of as they say, you want to get every
club in the bag dirty. You want to test accuracy,
you want you want to you want to test their
(11:34):
their recovery skills, their short game skills, their ability to
control their distance, the spin and and how they handle
their nerves and course management all that. But I think
that if you can really get the players thinking during around,
it's it's just going to add to the test of golf.
And so I, I you know, always looked at it
(11:57):
from an architectural standpoint of saying, what are the options here?
I mean you might have a putting Green Shaine where
you'd say, listen, there's no way you're gonna put a
whole location um old tucked over in that corner if
they're having to hit four and five irons in. And
so maybe if on that day that you do want
to tuck it, maybe you say, listen, let's move the
(12:18):
team ground up and let's tease them a little bit.
Let let's give them a different drives on instead of
every day where they get in a routine of saying,
I know this is a driver every day off the tea,
or I know it's a three wood every day off
the tea. You know, I think that's part of the setup,
is to take all those to the architecture, the agonomics,
the meteorology, and just what the players are capable, and
(12:39):
then you try to put it together. And you know,
even if you go because it is part science and
it's part art, and and you do all that and
you still might not get it right. And and as P. J.
Boatwright told me more than thirty years ago, you guys, Mike,
you you're never going to get a pad on the shoulder.
If you get seventy one out of seventy two whole locations, right,
(13:02):
remember that. And that's been you know, frankly, that's the
challenge of the Men's and Women's US Open is that
we set it up closer to the edge than any
other event out there, so it's easier to cross over
that edge and have things not quite go right to
where well executed shots aren't rewarded. So but it's been
(13:23):
listening overall fun just because I've I've gotten to see
so many of these great golf courses and some of
the great players of all time, and it's it's been
a really, really an honor. Yeah, I feel like, you know,
going from a position of setting up a championship golf
course for the best in the world versus what you're
(13:45):
gonna do, which is designed golf courses for everybody, for
for all levels of golfer, I feel like there's got
to be a mentality. I'm sure you and Tom have
talked at length about this, But I was just at
Aaron Hills a couple of weeks ago. You know, I
love Aaron Hills. I loved that US Open. I've hot
it was just excellent start to finish. I love the
idea of going to different golf courses, you know, that
(14:05):
was something we saw a few years ago, in particular
with Chambers Bay of course and Aaron Hills, even going
back to Beth Page and Tory Pines where we'll be
returning to next year for the US Open. You know,
all these these golf courses that are allowed to play
for public, not just a private golf course, but Aaron
Hills is a championship golf course. It is a tough
test to golf for the best in the world, and
it allows non championship golf to be played their year round.
(14:28):
And I think of of the other end of the
spectrum being kind of the Kaiser approach right to Bannon
Dunes and all of the properties he's put together. Bannon
Dun's just hoping the host of the U S Amateur.
But you know, Bannon Dunes is the place that I
can take my friends that are handicaps and they can
get around maybe losing one ball or two, and they
can make some pars and maybe make a birdie and
(14:49):
really have that highlight moment. Where are you leaning in
terms of the mentality for your design firm knowing that
championship golfers championship golf, but also these days we are
seeing design firms lean a little bit more towards the
everyday golfer and making sure their experience is awesome. Listen,
I think Shane, you beautifully describe what what to me
(15:12):
is one of the wonderful attributes of golf is that
you play on golf courses that are very different in
terms of their design. They're you know, they're agronomics. Weather
can change obviously a golf course day to day, and
I do think that's one of the beauties that sets
golf off apart from other sports. I mean, listen, yes,
(15:37):
there are different basketball courts, but by and large, same dimensions,
same height of the rim, um, same thing with baseball.
With golf, you know, you have desire to go to
a band of dunes are in Aron Hills because of
the golf course. Otherwise, if they were all the same,
(15:58):
you wouldn't do that. And so to me, um, that's
what makes are one of the things that makes our
games so intriguing and so specific to me what I like. UM.
And it's kind of funny because Tom Fazzie and I
have talked about this for probably twenty five years going,
and um, I think it'll be a nice balance because
(16:18):
I tend to to want to think about how do
you make a golf course is playable as you can
for the beginner, for the average day golfer, that is
there a way to also make it strategic and fun
for the really good player that has great control of
his or her golf ball. And and so I would
(16:38):
tend to say I like wider golf courses. I like angles.
I like the ability to bounce balls into greens and
that's not not as if you have to do it
eighteen times. But but you know, I listen, I love
big greens, but I also love small greens. I like
a golf course that maybe is a mix of those
where you may have a nine thousand square foot green
(17:00):
with undulation on it and different quadrants, but also you know,
a little postage stamp green if if if by and
large it's going to be short shots into it. I love.
You know, listen, a lot of people who like architecture
love half shot pars where you know it's it's almost
like a part three and a half, or it's a
par or it's a really short part three where everybody
(17:22):
virtually has a some kind of lofted club into it,
but you make it a little you know, maybe it's
a green with a set at a diagonal. That's that's
you know, not deep, and or it's you know, it's
risk reward par fives, or maybe maybe it's a drobable
par four, or maybe it's a part four and a
half where it is a par four but you've got
(17:42):
to hit your two very best to get there. And
so I take the like the the width, the angles,
and uh, It's funny because a lot of people and
Tomm and I announced this, they were kind of thinking
maybe the opposite where Tom loves just I was tough
testing golf, and he's very good. He's done some courses
(18:03):
that are just marvelous in there, and so I think
it'll be a nice balance because people inherently think with
me that US Open it's going to be narrow, fairways, higher, rough,
impossible anything but that I get out the US Open
courses now and I'm like, che's I'm glad I don't
have to play this because I I could. I felt
like that a little bit in in thirty Mile Winds
(18:25):
at Aaron Hills the other day. I can promise you
that you know you one thing, I now, knowing what
you're getting into and what you're going to do with
with the rest of your golf career, if you will,
I go back to Chambers Bay Mike a lot, because
you know, I feel like, for whatever reason, Chambers Bays
like a curse word in and around golf because people
(18:45):
remember the not great stuff about that US Open. I mean,
I think it's one of the most underrated U s
Opens we've ever had, you know, not just from the drama,
but the golf course and specifically what you did in
terms of the creativity of that set up. And I
just wanted you to give us kind of a look
into how that process worked and what you were thinking
(19:05):
with the changing of the pars and the changing of
the teams. You know, you had a Part three where
you could play two different team grounds, which completely changed
the whole in terms of how you approach it. And
then you had a Hole in eighteen where it was
a Part four and a Part five depending on where
your teet off that day. I I, as someone watching
and calling it, loved it. What was what was? What
(19:26):
do you look back on and think about when you
when you think in terms of chambers based specifically, and
the way you decided to get real creative with the
way a US Open looked. I'm glad to hear you
say that, because you know, listen it first hosted the
two thousand and ten U S s s Amit or one
by Peter your line and Shange. That golf course played perfect.
(19:48):
It was beautiful, It was dried out, it was pan
it was all fine fest you ball was bouncing you.
You had to be incredibly strategic the way you played it.
You had to understand that it may be a hundred
and sixty seven yards down when to the to the flagstick,
(20:08):
but you'd have to think, I want to hit it
a certain trajectory. I want to land at a hundred
forty nine yards and have it released onto the green. Um.
It just it played beautifully, and I think one of
the things that happened on I think it did happen
and in two thousand fifteen for the US Open, is
that through the winner we we end up having because
(20:31):
of some severe winter that year, the green they in
some ways they kind of lost the greens and it
wasn't you know, certainly wasn't the ground staff or superintendent's fault.
But what ended up coming in that spring was an
annual Polanta, a very very thick, bladed almost weed that
came in. And when you coupled that with fine festive greens,
(20:54):
the greens just putted and now just say it, they
put it horribly. They looked bad. And so if you
go back and look at, you know, the tapes of
the the USA Ameur, everybody loved how it played and
it played beautiful. So a lot of it just was
some you know, say what you will. It was some
bad luck with agronomics and then that. And rightfully so
(21:16):
the players didn't like cutting on greens that weren't true.
They were bouncy and and they were just not good looking.
And we didn't like it either. But I think that
in some of the ways gets to what you were saying,
is that it took away from the architecture of the
course and the setup of the course. But listen, I
will also say this is that as much as people
(21:37):
may look at that, look at what it defined. I mean,
we we got Dustin Johnson and Jordan's beef. You couldn't
have had a more exciting finish and and again, you
know again we can all look back and be critical
and listen, I have too, So it's not as if
undnying everything. It's just that it's unfortunate. That's some you know,
(21:58):
a tough winner left us tough Greens, and I think
the course just didn't It didn't show the way it
should have shown. And and uh, but I have no
doubt at some point we'll get back there with well,
we're already got to go back there with more championships.
But I can't imagine it's it was such a great
community and it's a public golf course, it's built on sand.
(22:22):
You know, it's Pacific Northwest. We've got great support. So
I've got to think we'll get back there, and I
hope we get back there at some point in the future.
It was awesome. I I loved I loved it from
start to finish. And and like you said, I know
the Greens weren't perfect, but I mean drama wise, when
you think about what happened, I mean Louis Bertie six,
I think you pready six of his last seven, and
you had Rory and Adam Scott firing these crazy numbers early.
(22:43):
And then of course we get the late drama with
with DJ and Speith. I mean I was standing probably
twenty ft from speed when he hit that second shot
into eighteen, and you know, with how the grandstands were
set up, you know, perfectly behind the green. It was
just it was just awesome. It was everything I feel
like you would want to a can inclusion of a championship,
and so you know, I always I always give a
(23:04):
lot of kudos and credit to Chamber's Bay in that
US Open, because I feel like it's a little bit underrated.
I do need to get into everybody's favorite topic right
now in golf, Mike, and that's distance. People love talking
about distance, and I figured, if I've got you on,
we've got to tackle this as well. You've been at
the U s J since nineteen ninety. I mentioned if
we go back to, the average driving distance on the
(23:24):
PGA Tour was two d and sixty two point three.
Today it's two nineties six point four. I mean that's
the average. I mean, I don't think you need to
be a math expert. I know I'm not one, but
obviously there's a big jump in that if you go
back to and of course this is on the heels
of what we just went through with Bryson and wing Foot.
So where are we going with this boom and distance?
(23:45):
If you will? And do you see it as a
good thing, a bad thing, or just part of golf
that we've seen over the last hundred hundred and fifty years.
The distance will always be a thing that gets that
improves as the players improve. Well, listen, it's a complex issue.
It's always been a complex issue. And when I say
always change, this issue has been for at least a
(24:08):
hundred and twenty five years. Hundred and twenty five years,
this has been an issue. So this is not something
that has just happened of late. This is not contrary
to what some people think. This is not something that
just came up with, you know, the two piece golf
ball and the big headed titanium clubs. You know, you
(24:31):
go back to the time going from the gut of
percha of ball to the Haskel ball um there was
roughly a twenty increase when that happened. We think about that,
I mean, what we saw going from you know, think
about the early nineties nineties when when the better player
was using a ballotap you know, wound golf ball, with
(24:53):
a steel shaft and hitting a wooden driver. Um, you know,
you think about from that time to now, I don't
know what we've had, maybe an eight percent increase or
perhaps ten. So these things have happened over the years,
and you know, we we've dug up quite a bit
of material on this. And I think it was in
(25:14):
nine nineteen eleven. If I read you the minutes from
the U S. G A Equipment you know meeting, then
you swear you would think it's today because these issues
have been going on and on and listen, you know,
I guess I'll start off by saying that it's an
incredibly important issue. I mean, I personally am passionate about
(25:34):
it because I think that this is It's not as
if we have an emergency, but I do believe strongly,
and then certainly the U, S, J, N rn A,
you know, as organizations agree with this that it's an
issue that needs to be dealt with. How it gets
dealt with, I mean, I think that's the process we're
working through. But as we started what we call a
(25:57):
called the Distance Insights Initiative about up two and a
half years ago, we spent basically two years researching what
has happened relative to distance over the last hundred plus years,
what were the causes of it, and what were the
effects of it um and where are we now and
where is the game going? And really put data, i
(26:21):
mean factual data behind it, which, frankly is where so
many people people have strong thoughts about this subject. It complicated.
Some people think that what's happened with distances disastrous for
the game continues to be disastrous. Other people would suggest
that the genies out of the bag and let athletes
be athletes, let technology go where it's gonna go, and
(26:45):
deal with it. But you know, the reason we think
it's so important is it's listen, it's not just about
the athlete. It's not just about how you're swinging. This
is much bigger. This is this is how distance is
affecting golf courses around the world, and folks, this is
not just about the PGA Tour, the European Tour, in
(27:08):
other words, the male elite player. If it was just that,
it would kind of be a non issue because you
can find that, you know, the thirty five thousand golf
courses around the world, You can find golf courses that
can change to meet that very small group of players
means small but influential and important. And this is about
you know, when you look at the data, it's crystal clear, Shane,
(27:33):
is that you've got over a hundred years cycle of
increasing hitting distances. And then what's happened on because of
that is golf courses for over a hundred years have
been lengthening along and it's had a profound effect on
golf horses. The golf courses are spending more money to change.
It's causing increases and operating costs. It's it's causing us
(27:55):
to use more resources like water or gasoline. The memore
and this this notion that you know, every generation has
to hit the ball further than the last, and consequencely,
consequently golf horses have to Lengthen we just believe it
needs to end because it's it's just not good for
(28:16):
the game. And we believe distance is relative. It's always
been relative. And Shane, if you and I go out
and play, whether it's with today's technology or we we
we wind things back and you and I decided to
go out and play with Hickory's in a feathery ball,
You're always going to hit the ball further than me,
you're you're a better golfer than me, and and distances relative.
(28:37):
And this to me is getting into how do we
protect golf horses not only now, this isn't a rollback,
this is actually looking forward. And so to me, it's
all about having a healthy game and enjoyable game that's
sustainable game for many generations. And where we've just seen
(28:58):
trends and we've seen data is crystal clear about this.
As I said that it's just not good for the
game to be forcing billions of dollars worth of change
just because of increased distance. And again, this is not
a PGA Tour issue. This is an issue for all
of the game because it was just the PGA Tour issue.
(29:21):
Why are we seeing golf courses around the world that
aren't even hosting tour events lengthened so, you know, listen,
to put another way, all we're trying to do, shame
is fit the game on golf courses. We we want
the equipment to fit and the players to fit on
golf courses. We're not trying to take away athleticism and
(29:42):
and and maybe it put the you know, a final
comment would just be one of their sport would allow
their arenas to have to change the way golf is.
You don't see baseball changing stadiums because they're using titanium
bats and hot baseball. That's exactly what has happened with
the game of golf and and it and it's been detrimental.
(30:05):
It's cost And for for those golfers that would say, listen,
I'm not the problem, don't penalize me, just do something
about the mail elite golfer, they don't get it because
it's causing courses everywhere to change. Even if you don't
play the facts, you're having to pay the cost the environment,
(30:26):
you know, paying the cost extra time to play courses.
Is so when you look at the data, a rational
person would say, you know what, I hadn't thought about
it big picture enough. I get it now now in
terms of where we go, you know, there's a process
to this. I honestly can't sit here today and say
I know the tactics that are going to use. I
(30:47):
really don't know. In fact, much of this is probably
going to be done when I'm gone from the U.
S J. But um, but I think that what we
want to do is work with all the constituents. We
want to work with, you know, we want to work
with golf course architects, we want to work with the tours,
We want to work with the golf course equipment manufacturers
(31:08):
and say, how can we look at the long term
betterment of the game. We want to make sure that
we're not doing anything to harm the recreational player. Because
listen to what I know. If we went into a
room and we said, okay, a thousand golfers, everybody raise
your hand of who would like to hit the ball
less distance, we have one personal one, And I think
(31:31):
that if they understood that golf, you know, distance is relative,
and that you know something one day is done, you
just go up and play from a shorter te and
and anyway. So so that's you know, I guess a
wordy way to to give you a perspective on it.
It's a it's a complicated issue, but I for one,
feel strongly that something needs to get done long term,
(31:54):
but in a way that works for you know, all constituencies. Yeah,
I think that you hit on something. I I personally
am not one of those golf people that really get
up in arms about a lot of the things that
I think golfers now get up in arms about. But
I will say the thing that I get scared of,
and you've touched on this is you know you, my
(32:15):
my buddy Andy Johnson, who does a great job at
the Fried Egg and and uh and the shotgun start
was talking after Wingfoot about all the money that went
into extending the sixteen pole, right, I mean, you've got
to you talked about it. It's expensive to make golf
courses longer, especially these historic golf courses like Wingfoot, And
you put all this money and effort and time into
making that tea on sixteen, you know, thirty yards for
(32:37):
their back and Bryson hits driver wedge and you kind
of sit there and go was that all worth it? Right?
I mean, if he's still hitting a wedge into this
part four, it's kind of a waste of our time.
I keep thinking about this with Augusta and thirteen. You know,
people have been pining are they gonna extend thirteen thirteen
a driver wedge part five for a lot of these
guys now, And I keep thinking to myself, well, I
(32:57):
know they have the money. I know they can extend teen,
thirty or forty yards, but what's that really gonna do.
Is that going to do anything? I feel like, no,
I mean gone or the days we're seeing you know,
players haven't hit two and three irons into thirteen and
fifteen off hanging lines at the Masters. That's just not
really where golf is right now. And that's the one
thing that I get scared of as a golf fan
(33:18):
is it feels like the integrity of the way the
golf course was meant to be played isn't played like
that anymore. Yeah, I mean there's so many examples of
that chain. It's you know a lot of times what
we're seeing now. And again, let just take the focus
off just the tour player. Let's let's think about just
just the regular golf force that over the years has
(33:39):
felt compelled because of what the longer players are doing
at that particular golf course to change. So they either
say I need to build another tea further back. Maybe
they have the land, but they have to run the
irrigation back there. Now it's another tea to mow, it's
longer to walk for the player to get back there,
so it ends to the pace of play, or maybe
(34:00):
they have to purchase the land, or sometimes when they
don't have the land. What do they do? Well, let's
go ahead and completely um wed bunkers. Let's let's push
the bunkers further down the whole. Look, that's an unneeded expense.
It really does change nates for the architecture. It might
not work quite right for the average golfer. And now
(34:23):
maybe you compromise the architecture there. But the point of
it is is that we all want to hit the
ball further. We don't want to do anything to compromise
these wonderful athletes, and we want to allow them to
showcase their skills. But why do we need to continually
add expense to the game and some in some place,
in some cases compromise the architectural integrity for some players
(34:47):
who play that golf course. And it's just as you
look at the data, it's so crystal clear that something
needs to get done. And so I really think it's
so obvious that I have a lot of faith it
will get done. I just don't know exactly how it's
going to get done and how it's going to get
done in a way that makes sure that the average
(35:08):
golfer continues to love the game and it works for
the elite golfer, and it works for the tours and
it doesn't hurt equipment manufacturers, and so it can get done.
It's just listen, I look at that. What what we're
in right now is a stage where finally have crystal
clear data. We didn't have that data before. And I
(35:31):
think it just allows us to be processed, driven, in
fact driven as opposed to just you know, anecdotal. I
I'm okay with increased distance or I'm not okay with it.
It just it allows us as as an industry to
work together. We're gonna take a quick break and be
right back. Is there a gold standard? I've always wanted
(36:03):
to ask you this, Is there a gold standard championship
that people you know in the U s. G A
and the RNA and and even at Augusta you guys
kind of talk about still or eighty five. Is there
a championship that you guys consider this is the this
is the US Open or Women's Open that we want
a mirror all championships after you know, I that we
(36:28):
get this question. Um, maybe not put exactly that way,
but the question really is where does golf want to be?
What era and and when you think about it, and
I've read a good bit about it. I've talked to
players that were quite a bit older than me and
ones that are quite younger than me, and it seems
(36:49):
to be everybody's mindset tends to be what was golf
when I was growing up playing and that because listen,
I I I can remember dinner at one time I had,
going back close to maybe not seven or eight years ago,
I had literally a dinner with Arnold Palmer and Jack
(37:09):
Nick was just the three of us, and we were
talking about it, and I just I asked a lot
of questions, but I just listened, and it was fascinating
because the two of them are so passionate on this,
and they would, I think, if I were summarizing it,
they would tend to say when they were younger, when
they were playing their best golf. That was kind of
(37:30):
where golf needs to get back to. But you know,
if you go back Shane and read and you talk
about players of the Bob Jones era when they were
using hickory shafts and a different type of golf ball,
and all of a sudden, you know, in the nineteen
mid thirties, late thirties, when things started to move from
the hickory shaft to the steel shaft. You can read
(37:53):
the same comments back then about cheese. The game's going
to be ruined. There's a different school set that's needed.
Same thing. So the point is, if you ask a
young tour pro today or a young good player, they
never played the game with a ball that spun quite
as much. They never played the game with with per Simmons,
(38:15):
and where you really couldn't swing as hard as you
possibly can at golf ball because you couldn't control the
golf ball. There was a sweet spot was so much smaller.
They never played a game when you shortside yourself and
you can pull out a sixty four degree wedge, and
you know, when I was growing up playing competitively, no
one used more than fifty six degrees and there was
(38:37):
a big flange to it. And so when you shortside
of yourself, you were almost forced to open up the
blade and it was a risk your shot. And in
same way with hitting a short bunker shot, it was
just harder too. More skill Is that better worse? I
don't know, But what I do know is it's just different.
And so to answer your question, I really do think
(38:59):
it depends on your age and kind of where you
were at a time when you think this is how
golf should be, because I think it's generational nature. I
want to touch on the idea of US Open rhotas.
I mean, I I think you're either on one camp
or the other. I personally live in the camp that
I've loved the last twenty years of US Opens. I've
loved the fact that you'll occasionally get a Oakemon and
(39:22):
a Shinnakok mixed with an aeron Hills in Chambers Bay,
and I I enjoy that because I think the US
Open has a lot of faces, and I think it
could be hosted at a lot of different golf courses
and a lot of different looking championships. But I do
feel like we are moving towards, at least if you
look at the lineup over the next ten twelve years,
towards more of a US Open rota. Do you feel
(39:43):
like that's where we're gonna go. Where there's five or
ten golf courses that are hosting this championship, kind of
a revolving door of those golf courses are They're always
going to be these I don't want to call them random,
but these outside US Open hosted golf courses that will
occasionally get one of these championships. Well, Shane, I I
do the leave. You're gonna see a hybrid um and listen,
(40:03):
I don't know how long that will last. In my
thirty plush years at the U s J. You know,
just in that period of time, we've changed philosophies on
kind of where we go, when we go, and how
often we go. But I think that in the you know,
let's say the next decade or so, there is a
there's there's a view with the U s J. And
(40:25):
and frankly, a lot of that's come from talking to
players who play in the US Open, players who formally
played in the US Open, and saying, you know, what
do you think we should do? Where do you think
we should go? And so we've we've done a lot
of this based on their impact and good data research.
And I think that you start with the premise that
the United States has more great golf courses than any
(40:51):
place in the world, but by a long shine um.
So I think for US moving personally, moving the US
Open around not just geographically, but two different types of
golf courses. You know, you think about a pineers number
two that have those. You know, it's a wider golf course.
Now it doesn't have grass rough, it's got you know,
(41:11):
the the sandy kind of native areas. And then you've
got more traditional tree line golf forces like Wingfoot with
the high rough. You mentioned Chambers Bay. But I personally
love the fact that we go to this these this
country's greatest golf courses. And I mean, think about the Shane.
(41:31):
How many think about how many US open sites we
go to that are in the top courses in the
country is amazing in the world, in the world, and
so I I think you're going to continue to see
us go there. I think generally speaking, the U. S.
G A loves history traditions, so you're gonna see us
go to more of the old historic sites that you know,
(41:54):
maybe Bob Jones want one, or Ben Hogan or Jack
Nicholas or Tie the Woods, but you'll also see us
I don't I definitely don't think you're going to see
the U. S J abandoned newer courses. Um. I think personally,
I think that would be a giant mistake. I mean,
I suspect there could be courses not even built yet
that maybe in my lifetime you see a US Open
(42:17):
plate on. So nobody U s J is saying we
should abandoned new golf horses, because I think we all
believe that if it's if it's if it's a good
enough golf course and it can be a good test
to golf and it and it works operationally and it
does move us around geographically, that we can do that.
On the other hand, what what is you know, the
(42:38):
data really does say is that the players want us
to come back to some of the great golf courses
more often. They just they wanted to hit to Shinnicop
more often. They want to get the Pioneers more often,
they want to get the Pebble Beach more often, they
want to get the Oakmont more often. Um. And so
that's really when when people talk about a road up,
(43:01):
that's that's going to be. I think what you see
is just us getting back to the courses more often.
And you know, we were back at Wingfoot. It was
it took us fourteen years to get back from oh
six to two thousand and twenty, and so I think
we only had a fifteen sixteen seventeen players who had
played in two thousand and six. And I think there's
(43:21):
a belief that you know, allow the public, allowed the viewers,
allow the players to get to know a wingfoot better
by going them more often. So I think that's what
you'll see. But I really don't think you'll see And
I hope you don't see us a band and going
to um you know, newer courses or maybe you know, listen,
when we went to Marryon in two thousand and thirteen,
(43:44):
we hadn't been there since the early nineteen eighties, and
and here's one of the great historic treasures in golf,
and and to celebrate that, to allow golfers and and
the fans to see that again, I think it was
a great thing. And and I I hope we don't
see them. And we're going back to the country Club
in two thousand and twenty two. We hadn't been there
(44:06):
since you know, Curtis was on as Curtis Strange was
on his role wearing back to back opens and eighty
nine and ninety and it's one of the five founding
clubs of the U. S J. And I mean that
should be a marvelous US Open, And you know, we'll
celebrate history when we go back there. I'm looking at
the lineup now, I mean Tory Country Club, l A
c C, which is gonna be awesome, Pinehurst, Oakmon, Shinnikock, Pebble.
(44:28):
I mean the lineup is is kind of a heavy
hitter row, that's for sure, So I mean exciting stuff.
I do feel like, at least someone that was on
the broadcasting side of these championships, I do get the
sense that when they are at these historic places, these
as you said, these places that have seen the likes
of a Hogan and a Nelson and you know, a
sneed playing on the golf courses, it does elevate the
(44:51):
feel of the championship. So I agree with you. Now, Mike,
I'm gonna ask you a question, as Mike Davis, not
the CEO of the U s J. This is just
Mike Davis being Mike da What, in your opinion, is
the perfect championship golf course? For me, it's one that
really really allows players to showcase different parts of the game.
(45:14):
I guess I don't like the I love courses that
allow players to play a hole differently. So it's not
just a hundred and fifty six guys are gonna are
women are going to play a hole exactly the same way.
I love the idea that somebody might take a driver
and challenge a corner and somebody else takes something less
(45:37):
than a driver off. I like that that there's risk
reward where you can dangle a carrot and all of
a sudden say, listen, you can try it, and if
you succeed, you're gonna get rewarded. But if you try
it and don't succeed, you're going to be penalized more
than somebody who played conservatively. And so, you know, really
using all fourteen clubs in the bag and making the
(46:00):
players think. I mean, to me, that's one of the
things that separates average architecture from great architecture is it
really makes the players think, and it gives the player options, choices, angles.
And some of that's done by how a whole is routed.
Some of it's done by the green itself. Some of
(46:21):
it's done by how you set a hole up on
that particular day, how dry it is, what the wind doing,
where the whole location is, where the team markers are.
Some of it even how you prepare the rough. I mean,
do you want just pitch out rough? That really says
we are putting accuracy at a premium, or do you
(46:41):
want to watch somebody who says, listen, if you hit
it in the rough, you're going to get penalized. However,
we're going to allow you to show your shot making skills.
I mean, it's one of the reasons I really do
believe that Jack Nicholas was arguably is good or the
best US Open player on the men's side ever, is
(47:02):
that she not only managed his game well, but he
was exceptionally good at recovery out of the ruff. He
had that high swing plane, he opened the face of
this club, he took it up high, never released on
the club, and he just knew how to play out
a thick ruff. He didn't have a shallow swing. Think
about Tiger Woods, think about how great he's been at
(47:26):
recovery shots over the years, and and how exciting that. Then,
I mean, listen the lead up to Wingfleot this year,
when you go back and I did watch it, when
you watch two thousand six, and what Phil Nicholson did
beyond belief, how great he paid from a recovery standpoint,
because he really did not drive the ball well at all,
(47:46):
but yet his skill set and then the way the
course is set up allowed him to show that skill.
And to me, that's what I like in and I
just I like the course that creates excitement, and it
allows the players to take risk, will play conservative, and
and and it changed the course up on a daily basis.
(48:07):
I and I think there's a lot of places that
can do that. Alright, Mike, last question, looking back on
your tenure setting up these championships, what was your best
set up US Open in your opinion? Oh boy, this
is you having to pat yourself on the back. I
know it's uncomfortable. I know it's not the most fun
thing to do, but I'm assuming one pops up somewhere
(48:29):
in the front of the brain. Well, listen the one
I think that So I've done every US Open, not
not necessarily me personally setting up the golf course, but
every one since where Hailer, when one at McDonagh and
in that time period, and that's whatever one U s
so us SO I guess will be thirty one U
(48:50):
s opens um. The one that I thought was the
most intriguing is when Tiger wanted two thousand and eight.
I mean to think about up the change he gets
in the playoffs, against rock Omedia, who could not play
more different golf means the way they approached the game
and play the game two into the spectrum. They're two
(49:12):
wonderful people. But I look back on that one and
I think the the amount of drama in two thousand
eight Tory Pines, I just don't think it can be surpassed,
at least in those thirty one opens that I saw,
and some of it I think that the golf course,
the way it was set up, presented um did allow
(49:33):
from that allow for that. In others we just had
a stroke of good luck where you had Tiger on
a on a basically a broken leg, um, you know,
winning that Open, making shots that you just can't I
mean that round three where he makes two eagles on
the back nine, and you know, you think about that
(49:54):
cut to get him into the playoffs on the final
the seventy second hole, and then the excitement of the
Monday play. I hope it was. That was an unbelieable
US Open. I mean, that's that's right up there with
nineteen with Francis We met nineteen sixty with Arnold Palmer
at Cherry Hills when he's getting chased by you know,
an older Ben Hogan and an AMiner named Jack Nicholas.
(50:16):
And you think about some of the great US opens
of all time. I mean I would put two thousand
and eight up that with any of them. Yeah. That
it's every time you watch it, and every time you
have you see Tiger's put on the last tool makes it.
You see it bumping down the hill. You're like, this
is not going to go in, and it goes in
every time. And Dan had this unbelievable it was great. Mike,
(50:37):
I just want to let you know, once you get
out of the position you're in, you get into golf
course design, you're gonna have to reach out to you know,
idiots like me about coming out and checking out your
golf course. So I don't want you to lose these invitations.
You gotta send this media invite in once the golf
courses start to open, I would welcome that. It'll be
it'll be fun and interesting. I'm not sure what I'm
(50:58):
getting myself into totally, but looking forward to the challenge. Well.
I appreciate the time, Mike. Always excited to talk to
you and I've always wanted to have you on the podcast,
So thanks so much for the time. Okay, Shane, keep
up the great work. You're terrific at what you do,
and thanks so much. We're gonna take a quick break
and be right back. Two thumbs up and a big
(51:24):
thanks to Mike Davis for joining me and giving me
all that time. Always nice when people carve out, you know,
I mean forty five minutes of your day. When you're
a busy persons a lot, it's a lot of time,
and so I was thankful for that. I hope you
guys enjoyed it. If you like the show, rate and
review it if you could. It helps our show reach
more people and more eyeballs in and and air pods
(51:45):
if you will. Is a good thing for podcasts, so
you can follow the Clubhouse on Twitter and Instagram at
the Clubhouse pod. Follow that. We occasionally give giveaways, especially
around the holiday season, where we send out couzies and stickers,
maybe even a hatter two. So do that if you could,
and we'll be back next week. The Clubhouse was Shane
Bacon as a production of I Heart Radio. For more
(52:07):
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.