First Colin reacts to reports that the Sixers will attempt to trade James Harden after exercising his $35.6 million ‘23-’24 player option, and if the Knicks make sense as a potential landing spot.
Then, Ian O'Connor -- NY Post columnist and author of Coach K: The Rise and Reign of Mike Krzyzewski and Belichick -- and Colin discuss the Mets nosedive, if they have a realistic shot to out bid the Dodgers for Shohei Ohtani, expectations for Aaron Rodgers’ 1st year with the Jets, if Rodgers will have problems with the NYC media, if Bill Belichick can stop the Patriots recent offensive backslide, if the Giants are really a well run organization, and why Zion Williamson to the Knicks could change the NY sports landscape.
Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Herd #Volume
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
All right, we're going to get to Ian O'Connor talk
all things Mets implosion, Yankees limitations, Aaron Rodgers and the Jets.
Are the Giants well run in New York? And who
is Jalen Brunson's co pilot to take the Knicks to
a different level? The great Ian O'Connor good forty minute interview.
(00:32):
Can't wait, so Woes reports that the Sixers. Harden is
opting in to the seventy six Ers, going to sign
a contract, but Philadelphia is going to seek trade options.
This is, of course the right move. Tyrese Maxi is
ascending into a number two and beat his a number one.
(00:55):
Tobias Harris is certainly good enough to be a three.
Harden is not a trustable, winning post season player. You
get nothing on the defensive end. He's quirky, he's odd.
He has become a better distributor over time, never been
in great shape. I just don't think he's a winning
(01:16):
basketball player. And I've said this about a lot of
dynamic guards Westbrook Wall, Derrick Rose, James Harden, highlight reels,
John Morant. I don't think they're winning players. I just
think they're gifted players, So I think Darryl Morey, the
GM of the Sixers, is making the right move. NBA
gms are desperate suckers for talent, and you will be
(01:39):
able to find somebody that takes James Harden. But I
think they're a better team without him. What I would
try to find is another dynamic guard who will give
you something on the defensive end. Now there is speculation
that they know perhaps Philadelphia's interest that in Damian Lillard.
(02:01):
I don't know that to be true, but you know,
I get into these discussions all the time. You know,
Kyrie Irving is visiting Phoenix. Drama is a killer in
the NBA. It destroyed the Mavericks and Memphis late in
the year, destroyed them. The Lakers got rid of Westbrook
played great basketball. Harden is drama. The Brooklyn team when
(02:24):
you had to harden a Kyrie Durant, three Hall of Famers,
nothing but drama. And the reason being is an NBA
locker room is a smaller locker room, fewer players, so
one agitator can blow up the rest of the locker room.
Whereas in baseball, a third of the team pitchers down
in the bullpen, professional football, half the guys one side
(02:46):
of the field, half the guys the other. Basketball one plane,
thirteen guys, seven that matter, eight that play, one selfish agitator,
one quirky odd personality blows up room. So bones Highland
at the trading deadline shipped out of Denver. Chemistry got better.
They never look back. So to me, Kyrie Irving creates drama.
(03:11):
Ja Morant now drama, James Harden drama. These guys are
team killers. But there is a unique relationship with young
NBA fans, not all NBA fans, but young fans who
wear the sneakers of stars that they're emotionally attached to
players like international soccer fans are to their Messi and
(03:32):
Ronaldo's that they look past their flaws because they wear
their players. You don't wear cleats from football players or
baseball players. You don't walk around with a glove. If
you look at what the NBA has, the fans, especially
young fans, have a much higher level of tolerance of
bullshit with NBA stars because they wear them. That's why
(03:54):
the Jordan Lebron debate is so fierce. It's not just
Michael's game, it's Michael's shoes. There are people that collect them.
Every time they get up in the morning, they go
to their closet and have twelve pairs of Jordan's right.
So the loyalty to an international soccer star and the
loyalty to an NBA star from young fans is so
(04:18):
intense and deeply embedded emotionally that they just overlook Westbrook,
Wall Harden, Steph Marbury's flaws. They wear their stuff. But
I think the smartest gms in the league. Sometimes you
have to take on a player that's high maintenance to
get you to another place. But I think Philadelphia is
absolutely making the right move sign Harden. Move him. There's
(04:42):
a sucker out there every minute. Somebody needs offense, you know.
I mean to be honest with you. Westbrook worked briefly
with the Clippers. They needed somebody to run the offense.
They had good wings and Paul George and Kawhi missed
so many games. Westbrook shows up every night, gives you
thirty four minutes, give your production. He kind of worked
with the Clippers like if Kawhi and Paul George played
(05:04):
every night, he'd be disruptive, but they don't. That's why
I thought Westbrook, with Ad and Lebron would work Lebron's
old missus thirty games, eighty misses games all the time.
He'd be productive, he'd play, he'd play hard. So but
I think Harden got the Sixers to a level before
Maxi was ready to be the number two. I think
(05:26):
they needed Harden to be the two. But I think
they're making this move for a lot of reasons. One
better chemistry and two tyrese. Maxie is now ready to
be the second star, the co pilot, the robin to
the batman now woes. Reports that the Clippers and the
Knicks will engage with the Sixers, I do not think
(05:48):
it fits for the Knicks. I wouldn't be surprised if
Harden's people are leaking that they don't need him. They
don't need a ball centric guard. They have their pilot,
they have their quarterback in Jalen Brunson. They need a
big who can score. As far as the Clippers, they've
(06:08):
been looking for a guard for years. They tried John Wall,
didn't work. They tried Westbrook sort of work, but it's
not a long term plan. I don't think Harden is
the answer. But in a city where they're trying to
grab market, share going into a new building. Harden's a star,
Kawhi is a star. Paul George is a semi star.
Paul George and Kawhi are very good defensive players. Hardens not,
(06:31):
so that does help Harden's case. The Clippers feel much
more realistic than the next two. Well, he's my favorite
East Coast voice. Ian O'Connor a four time New York
Times best selling author the book on Coach k Derek
Jeter Belichick three for three, All Fantastic, New York Daily News, Now,
(06:54):
The New York Post, USA Today, ESBN, known him, loved
him for years. He is now joining us, and we
got a lot to talk about. So I remember when
I lived in Connecticut. You're really in the belly of
the beast Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Phillies. It's just sports
talk is driven by it out West. It is not.
(07:14):
It's more of an NBA NFL discussion. But the intensity
and the passion is redeemable. And I missed so much
not hearing Sports Talk Radio New York. After the Mets
late inning Melton against the Phillies, I watched it. I
just happened to stumble on it. Good hell. Ian, that
(07:38):
is as hits, batsman walks one hit, multiple runs. What
was that? The tipping point? Is Buck Showalter in trouble
after that moment?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
I don't know if it's a tipping point, Colin, because
it feels like I live with a fatalistic Mets fan.
My wife spent a diehard Mets fan for forty five
fifty years basically, and so it feels like they just
run into each other and I can't differentiate.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
One from the other.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And I don't think it's the tipping point as far
as Showalter is concerned, because last year he won one
hundred and one games. That's the second most victories in
the history of the New York Mets franchise. Davy Johnson
won one hundred and eight nineteen eighty six, and nobody's
done better than Showalter did in year one.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So I don't think you can fire him in the
middle of year two.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I really don't, And so I think he deserves the
rest of the season. However, it unfolds and it's getting
uglier by the hour, and then have the conversation in
the offseason is he worthy of year three? But I
think to whack him in the middle of two would
be doing him a real injustice, because just based on
his track record, he did so much good last year.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
That I think, actually, you could make a case.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I remember the general manager of the Mets, Steve Phillips,
did this in nineteen ninety nine. The Mets were unraveling
and one night he decided, I'm going to fire all
of Valentine's coaches, and the Mets went on an absolute tear,
made the playoffs and almost made the World.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Series that year.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
You could argue it makes sense to fire a coach
right now, or maybe they should have done it last
week and try to ignite the team that way, keeping
Showalter and the GM Billy Eppler in place at least
for now, I think that makes more sense.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
In firing show Old.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You know, they're not hitting, they're not getting the ball
in play, if Pete Alonso's not healthy, they don't have
any power. It's pretty simple. They're not doing anything particularly well.
But I would argue, if you look at the Verlanders
and the Shrsers, they were built for late season baseball.
They almost assumed they would be good late in the year.
They built this team, you know, for July. You know,
(09:45):
I would say August fifteenth, on to be ready to go.
So you know, when I look, I always feel you
can buy relevance. It's very difficult to buy wins. Lindor's
not playing well, they're not hitting. I was thinking about
this before the interview today. I can't remember the last
(10:06):
because the Mets team last year really struggled to put
together runs and rallies. It wasn't a great hitting team.
It lacked power. When is the last? Maybe it's just again,
you would know this. When's the last Mets team that
was an offensive power?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
That's a good question, and I'm going back to two thousand.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
They're in the World Series against the Yankees, and They've
had a few teams here and there that I would
put in that category at least close to it, certainly
not this one. And you're right, Lindor is now a
three hundred and forty one million dollar player, though he's
been playing better lately, and that's part of the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Now. Steve Collen just had a press conference.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I'm not sure why he called that press commers, because
they really say a whole hell of a lot other
than he's fortunate to have found Billy Eppler as general manager.
Yet I'm still looking for a president baseball operations to
effectively replace him.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So I'm not sure how that makes much sense.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
A lot of people in baseball believe David Sterens and
the Milwaukee Brewers will be the guy in the offseason
when he's finally a free agent. I think Steve Cohen's
been trying to hire him for a couple of years.
And then you go from there. But it's starting pitching.
The Mets, who used to be known for starting pitching.
That's really what's failed them colin this year, and it's
been a domino effect from that point. It's Verlander, he
(11:20):
gives you five innings, he throws a hundred pitches, he's
got to come out. Now you have to go to
the middle relief. That's been a real problem on this team,
trying to get to the good back of the bullpen arms.
And even last night with Hartway coming in the game
a tied game and right away you're trailing.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's been the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
It's saying to Verlander and other pitchers, the starting pitchers
not giving you any length, and then you're using the
worst players on your team as a bridge, and it's
a very wobbly one at that and that's really been
a big part of why the Mets are where they are.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I think one of the things I learned when I
lived back out East and I actually miss it, is
the intensity of the media, the intensity of the pressure.
For all the money the Mets have now and for
all the money the Yankees have had for years, I
couldn't say the last time the Yankees drafted and developed
an ace. They just they went and purchase pitching. And
(12:15):
I understand that. You could say they have great revenue,
but so do the Braves, and they do it so
to of the Dodgers, and they do it. Braves have
no problem with that. It's not just a revenue issue.
Is it possible that? And I saw this with the
Brooklyn Nets. The downside in New York is it's expensive
to live there, it's expensive to travel. You need to win.
(12:35):
People aren't going to spend money on those tickets. When
there's two NFL teams, two Baseball teams, two NBA that
some of what has happened in New York Baseball is
just a pressure cooker in the reality of this baseball
centric market. It puts enormous pressure on players.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Well, certainly that's part of it, and particularly when baseball
is the ultimate like golf, the ultimate game of failure.
Top of that, the twenty four to seven scrutiny in
the social media age New York being the biggest, loudest
market is certainly in there among the reasons that you
could rank at the top of the list as to
why the Mets in particular are unraveling this season.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I think the Yankees with.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
That third wildcard are going to make the playoffs every year,
that third wildcard. And with the Mets, who should keep
you If you're spending X amount of dollars, you should
be in the tournament. And in baseball, as you know,
we saw last year with the Phillies, and of course
they made a change in the middle of the season
firing Girardi. Once you get in anything can happen, particularly
in baseball. It's like, and I had this conversation with
(13:38):
Alex Rodriguez years ago, and to some extent with Aaron Judge.
In baseball or in basketball, you give Lebron James and
his prime the ball every time up the floor in
a big spot. You can't send Aaron Judge or a
rod to the plate every time in the ninth inning
in a big spot in October. It's not the way
baseball works. So there's a lot on the individual superstar
(13:58):
in baseball. Like gayalnd Or is not really a superstar.
He's not playing like one or any of these guys
to try to carry a team because they can only
do so much.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It's the nature of that sport.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So I think there's a lot of pressure on the
stars in baseball because they can't impact winning and losing
like a quarterback in football or a two guard in
the NBA.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
New York magnifies that in baseball.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And I think again, going back to the Mets where
they are right now, is that they didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Develop the picture that they did develop.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
The Grom left, of course, and Matt Harvey was good
for a while they developed him, and right now they
don't have a top pitching prospect.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So Cohen realized that when he bought the team.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So I'm going to go out and spend a ton
of money on the Max Scherzers and Justin Verlanders and
try to do it that way. The problem is that
leaves you with a four hundred and forty five million
dollar bill at the end of the season that could
be a sub five hundred season.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know, you tweeted something the other day about Otani
and the Mets, and it's kind of understood. The Dodgers
this offseason pulled back. They let Cody Bellinger go. Kershaw's
contract was quick, justin Turner. They pulled back on revenue,
and the feeling was they were saving another seventy five
(15:17):
million for the Otani deal. A remarkable player, but the
Angels are literally the least talked about franchise in Southern
California outside of the hockey teams, So the Dodgers. There's
a real sense that Otani and the Dodgers are working
behind the scenes. Though though the Angels have said we'd
never trade for him, I'm not sure or trade him.
I'm not sure why if I could get if I
(15:38):
could get something for Otani knowing he's leaving, So there's
a sense in Southern California he'll be a Dodger. They
certainly have the revenue streams. They outdraw I think the
second place Yankees by seven thousand people per game. I mean,
the Dodgers are an enormously popular franchise like the Yankees.
In New York, it's an ATM machine. Boston doesn't feel
like they can compete financially. John Carlos Stanton, It's not
(16:03):
a miss, but it's not worth what they paid for.
Garrett Cole's not a miss, but it doesn't feel like
it's been a hit. Sure'ser not a hit. Would the
Mets of the Yankees be willing to spend the most
money ever on a baseball star? Would they?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think the Mets will and the Yankees will not
be willing to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I think Garrett call I'd push back a little bit
on that.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I think he's had a couple of shaky postseason moments,
but he's I think he's lived up to.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
The terms of his contract, and so I.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Think Steve Cohen, now this is more reason for him
to god and spend god knows what six hundred and
fifty million dollars to try to outbid the Dodgers for Otani.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
This is going to be fascinating to watch because the Mets.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Are going to miss the playoffs or eight and a
half games behind the third wildcard spot, which is really
hard to believe at four hundred and forty five million
when you include the revenue luxury taxes that Steve Cohen
is paying so is he going to double down when
his arm system is not producing great talent right now,
at least on the pitching front. And we'll see about Alvarez,
who I think will be a really good catcher for
(17:09):
the next dozen years for the Mets.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Baby will see.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
But I do think Steve Cohen now has more reason
to go all in on Otani and try to outbid
the Dodgers and just spend them into oblivion. He is
a guy who's worth eighteen billion dollars or close to it.
So that is going to be a deathmatch in the
offseason between the Dodgers and the Mets.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I think the Dodgers will win it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
They're certainly the leader in the clubhouse, but I think
Steve Cohen is going to make them really sweat on
that one and spend a lot more money than they
really want to spend.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
All right, pivot to football. The early season schedule is
rough for the Jets. Aaron's never played behind a mediocre
offensive line. One of the things New England and the
Packers have done is established consistent top ten O lines
without drafting offensive lineman in the first round. So I
mean he's had Pro bowlers all over the O line.
(18:07):
So this O line is Elijah Vera Tucker, major questions
at both tackles. I believe a rookie center, not a
ton of depth. I think it's a little bit of
an undoing for this is going to be first defensive
coach for Aaron Rodgers, first suboptimal O line, really tough
(18:28):
division and a harsh city that's not terribly forgiving. What
is a realistic expectation for the Jets nation? For the
people you talk to when you write a column, the reaction,
It's easy for me to just say, I mean, I
think it's a nine win team, The division's probably the
best in football. What say you and a New Yorker
(18:51):
who's a Jets fan? What is realistic that will satisfy
them at year end? Take a Super Bowl out.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I'll say ten and seven, make the Wildcard, finish second
behind Buffalo, and win a Wildcard round game and then
losing the Division round at Kansas City at Cincinnati, get
whacked in that second playoff game.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
But I think that's the problem is look at that schedule.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I mean, the first ten games, they could be three
and seven and not be playing that poorly. So they're
playing both Super Bowl teams, right Philly and Kansas City.
They're in that division. They're starting against Buffalo but at home,
so that's a game they really almost have to win
if you look at the first ten games. So I
(19:34):
think the formula for success, at least the way I
define it is go four and six in those first
ten games, and then they're winnable games those finals seven.
They can go maybe five and two sixty one, sneak
into the playoffs as a wildcard, win a game, and
then face the end in the division round at Kansas City.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So I think that's a successful season.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
And then add to enter year two of Aaron Rogers
as one of the Super Bowl favorites to get out
of the AFC, I think that is at least somewhat realistic,
but maybe too real, too optimistic.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Perhaps.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
In talking to some Jets fans who are used to
I always say this, they hate when I say it.
The Jets have not reached the Super Bowl, never mind
win one since man stepped on the moon. That was
a long time ago, so they're used to. They're wired
to feel the worst is going to happen. But I'm
going to be pretty optimistic. I'll say ten and seven
and make the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, it'll be really interesting because the Packers furnished him
with very good protection and two offensive coaches. Say what
you will about Mike McCarthy, there is We're seeing this
in New England with Belichick, who's virtually tone deaf to
offense made a DCDOC can't draft skilled players to save
his life. Even the best defensive coaches, they really they
(20:53):
don't talk the same language. So this is Aaron's and
Nathaniel Hackett's coming off for bruising, ugly performance in Denver.
So I do feel the pressure is really on Aaron
to run the offense, and he's okay at that, but
he can also be a little aloof and a little
disengaged at times. Here's the thing that I've noticed about
Aaron that I don't think he's a bad guy. He
(21:17):
can be a little bit of a finger pointer, a
little passive aggressive when things go south. New York is
going to force you to answer tough questions. A Green
Bay Midwestern media in is just not the same like
you drived. I can remember driving to work when I
was at ESPN and I would turn on like New
York radio and it would set the tone for the
(21:38):
discussion of the week, Like it's a tone setter, and
I think you can kind of roll your eyes if
you're Aaron Rodgers at the small market, you know, Green Bay, relax,
you go relax. To New Yorkers, that's not gonna play like.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
They don't relax.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
What they're known for is intensity. How do you think
the Aarin media thing will play out?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Well?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
So far, it's been in a really good marriage. I
think he came in wanting to make the best possible
impression on the New York market, the fans, and the media.
I think the New York media thing is a little
bit of a mid since I've been in it for
thirty seven years. In that I think there's just more
of us. We'd probably judge you a little more harshly
than every other market outside of Philly and Boston. But
(22:23):
I don't think the New York media is unfair. It's
large and it's tough, but not unfair. So he's got
an opportunity here. I think if you ever won a championship,
what would that do for his legacy? I mean, you
have Tom Brady's sitting there on the top of the
mountain with seven rings and Aaron's at one. If you
want to close that legacy gap to win a Super
(22:44):
Bowl for the New York Jets would go a long
way towards doing that, And so I think Rogers he
may have been disengaged in Green Bay, particularly at the
end he does. He has occasionally pointed fingers in a
passive aggressive way, but he hasn't been that figure so
far in New York at all. I went out to
all the open OTAs and by all accounts talking to players, coaches, executives,
(23:10):
he has been fully engaged in meeting rooms and practices
and just watching him. He's constantly talking to receivers, the
tight ends, offensive linemen, Hey do this. Let's talk about
that cut you just made coming out of your route.
I kind of like you to do it this way.
There's been a ton of that so so far. It's early.
Obviously we haven't started training camp yet. He has been
(23:33):
a very very good leader on and off the field
by all accounts. Let's see if it holds up and
let's see how that translates on the field in September
when they play for real. But as much as people
have talked about what an all time great quarterback can
do for this hapless franchise. I think there's a lot
that New York Jets can do for Aaron Rodgers. Like
(23:54):
I just said, if he somehow can win one in
the two or three years that he plays here in
New York and gets number two, it's going to feel
like he won four rings. It's almost like what Messier
did coming in New York in ninety four, even though
he had won five in Edmonton. He wins a Cup
ends a what a fifty fifty four year drought, and
(24:14):
the one cup people talk about when they talk about
his legacy is the one he won for the Rangers
in New York.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And he'll tell you that too.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
So I think that's the kind of opportunity that Rogers has.
Let's see how it plays out.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
There's a book behind you, Belichick. It's a great book.
I highly recommend to our audience. I had ian on
for the Coach K book. I thought it's just the
definitive book on Coach K and the Duke program Captain
with Derek Jeter and Belichick and Belichick. You know, if
(24:49):
you go look at the history of sports, there'll be
cultural changes in all of them. We've seen it with
baseball analytics. You know, it used to be the strikeout.
Dave Kingman was almost like a cartoonish. Today he'd be
Cody Bellinger, right, home run or strike it. It's not
as punitive, right like analytics have changed in football. It's
(25:12):
not as anally analytically driven as basketball, NBA, the three
point shot, small ball, although I do think we're pivoting
back to international bigs and highly skilled bigs. But in
the NFL it's more of an offensive league, mostly because
of that nearly billion dollar check they wrote for CTE
head injuries. This league is all about offense. It's good
for ratings, it's good for fantasy, and it's good for
(25:34):
lawsuits like don't write, don't be too there's already a
regular level of violence. And so if you look at
the remaining coaches the last several years, they're all offensive.
I think it was two years ago every NFC playoff
team had an offensive coach. Belichick has looked particularly tone
(25:55):
deaf dealing with Mac Jones and you know that whole culture.
I'm going to throw a theory at you and a
shoot holes in it. But Belichick largely ran the Patriots dynasty.
Robert Kraft hands off. Brady was never subversive. Ever, it
was Bill's team. In fact, later he complained about not
(26:15):
having a say in the offense, and so Brady eventually
leaves because he just doesn't get control. Even though there
was a moment Tom goes to Craft, they sell off
Garoppolo and it was the one time Belichick was not
running the show. So mac Jones comes in. McEnroe. Jones
(26:37):
a little bit of an ego, a little bit of
an attitude, and it feels like Bill is really punishing
him and marginalizing him. They re signed DeVonta Parker, Juju Smith, Schuster.
Those are players that need coaching in schemes to get opened.
They do not separate. They have no tight end or
receiver that is an ad libber, a playmaker. Maybe the
(26:58):
slowest team in the perimeter in the league. And what
it does, it drives the organization once again back through
Bill run game defense. I'm not going to create a
quarterback who is so powerful that can go through the owner.
And maybe I'm reaching on this, but I'm watching their moves.
(27:21):
They make no sense. They drafted three guards and two kickers.
First three picks were defense. They're the slowest offense in
the league. Doesn't it strike you odd over the last
two drafts two years, the lack of in a cultural shift,
the lack of offensive awareness. Am I missing something? No?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think it has been very surprising.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
And Bill's history though, if you look at how many
Hall of famers true Hall of famers did Tom Brady
ever play with Randy Moss? They didn't win a championship together,
that didn't last long, and of course Gronk Outside of that,
in terms of weapons, Brady was elevating a whole lot
of people out there. So and Mac Jones, he's not
Tom Brady. He has a chance maybe to win a
(28:06):
championship or two. This is such a huge year for
him now that he has a real offensive coordinator. Again
at Bill O'Brien and Belichick has never really been big
on drafting weapons and running a high powered offense, even
though in two thousand and seven when they brought in
Randy Moss and Wes Welker was at the height of
(28:27):
his powers too. That offense was a complete juggernaut and
shattered all kinds of records. And in my book I
gave Bill credit for being a defensive genius, probably the
best defensive coach of all time and suddenly shifting and
with help from his staff of course, but utilizing the
turning that slot position into such a weapon which in
(28:49):
everybody tried to copy, and then later going with the
two tight ends with Gronk and Hernandez and so he
became a bit of an innovator on offense. But you're right,
and I think Brady would complain privately to people about
where are my weapons. He did have Randy Moss maybe
the greatest receiver of all time for a little while.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
They didn't win one together they should have.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
But outside of that and Gronka tight end, he's been
doing or did do, a ton of elevating of people
who were pretty good to good football players, but not
great players at the skill position slots. So I think, yeah,
on one hand, it's a bit surprising. On the other hand,
when has he done it? He just had a much
(29:34):
better quarterback than he has right now.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, I want to talk to giants. I had this
rant a couple of weeks ago, and I said, we've
always known how great Peyton Manning is, but because of
his greatness, we never quite gave Eli Manning his just
deserves his two greatest passes in the Super Bowl as
he beat Brady and Belichick were to Mario Manningham and
David Tyree, Plexico and him had some good days, but
(30:02):
he did it with a defensive line, a little bit
of a rigid head coach. He didn't have great offensive lines.
And I said, if you take Eli's prime of twelve
years out, what have the Giants been in twenty years?
Is that because of Peyton's greatness in kind of flamboyant,
funny personality. Eli's much funnier now that he's retired. That
(30:27):
are the Giants really well run? They ran through gms,
They've run through coaches that we've never quite said to ourselves.
Yeah he wanted oh miss. He beat Brady Belichick twice.
He never had great receiving. Course, I'll ask you take
(30:50):
out Eli's twelve prime years, it's an abysmal record. Are
the Giants? Are the Giants well run?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Well?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I said this before, but John Marraw was a good
owner when he had a good head coach and a
good quarterback, and that was Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning.
When he didn't, he was a bad owner, and that
lasted a while. And now he's got a GM in
place in Joe Shane, the head coach in Dable, and
maybe a quarterback in Daniel Jones, who know what they're doing.
(31:19):
So he's back to being a pretty good owner again.
But he was a bad owner for a while. There's
no question it was making bad hires. Gettlemen and some
of the coaches that were brought in Pat Shermer. I mean,
that never made any sense to hire that guy. And
so finally I think they got it right. And they've
had some dark periods, of course in their history. The
(31:40):
Giants have followed by some tremendous periods with Parcels and
then with Coughlin to really, if you look at it
in that Coughlin Eli era that you're talking about their
best team, they really should have won three titles. Their
best team was the twenty eight team, if Plaxico doesn't
accidentally shoot himself. Kaughlin told me they thought they were
(32:00):
winning the whole thing. That was the only dominant Giants team.
They were eleven to zero that year, and then all
hell broke loose after the Plaxico accidental shooting. So they
could have won three titles and they blew it and
so never got that one back. But yes, you could
(32:21):
certainly argue the Giants were a poorly run franchise.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
If you take you take it away a lot, though
that's a lot of years.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
There that Eli was a good I don't think Eli
was ever a great or one of the best three
quarterbacks in the NFL in any particular season, but he
was very opportunistic and he was good. And then he
was great in the biggest moments against the greatest coach
and greatest quarterback of all time, and that'll probably get
(32:48):
him in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I always felt he had a unique ability. You know,
they talked about when he was a kid and nothing
bothered him, whereas Eli was whereas Peyton Manning was known
as a bit of a heath clencher in big moments,
really intense. People I know who know Peyton very very intense.
I've done a couple of interviews where I've had Peyton
and Eli together and Eli's always like late and Peyton
(33:14):
dogged him, and Eli's laughing Eli had. It's not aloof
because he has no arrogance. Eli had. I just I
love the guy he's got. He reminds me a little
bit of my son. Everything rolls off his back. Nothing
is outrageous. He's just and I think some of that Ian,
I don't know if you have relationships like this that
(33:35):
his brother was so intense. Maybe it's to curry favor
with dad and mom. He was the funny guy right
like in the family. And so I always thought Eli's
personality it was so unique. You know, Brady's so focused
and Russell Wilson so focused, and it's like Eli's like
this kind of country, smart, funny. Pressure doesn't face him.
(33:58):
I remember early in his career thinking this guy is
one of the best two minute quarterbacks. It was literally like,
can we just keep him in the two minute drill
the rest of the game. I have my apprehension he
was what was he like to cover?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Interesting?
Speaker 3 (34:12):
And so he's as you said, he's shown more of
his personality and retirement than he did as an active player.
But he was accountable and always there, and he had
a little rule, if we win, I'm not talking on Mondays.
He had his usual day of Wednesdays when he talked
before the next game, if we lose, I'll talk on
Mondays because I want to take my fair share of
(34:34):
the blame.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And when the Giants won on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
He wanted to make sure other teammates had their moment
in the sun on Monday with the media and didn't
want to de track from that. I remember one time
they were playing the Patriots in the regular season. He
had already beaten the Patriots in the Super Bowl once,
if not twice, and it was a Monday and they
were coming off a win. And I went to the
Giants PR people and I said, hey, you guys are
playing the Patriots.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's Eli.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I know you won yesterday, and he wants his teammates
to get the credit. He needs to talk today, even
if it's just for six minutes. So one of the
PR reps walked over to Eli whispered to him. I
saw him, not his head, and he understood.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
He got it. He realized that that was a day,
that was one.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Day he needed to make an exception because it was
the New England Patriots that they were playing the following Sunday.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And he did it. Eli always did the right thing,
and that was the right thing. It was. It's a
little window into his soul.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
I had conversations many with Archie about the difference between
Peyton and Eli, and Archie said, could you imagine if
Peyton ever played in New York, he said, the media
and Peyton would have been at each other's throats.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
In week one of his rookie year.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
He said, Peyton would have It would have been a
disaster Peyton in New York. So he said, thankfully that
never happened. Eli was the perfect personality for New York because,
like you said, he let everything roll off his back.
I remember one time Archie told me that it was
a day where Tiki Barber just ripped Coughlin in the
media and Archie called up Eli on the phone and
(35:58):
realizing Eli didn't care, was obliviou and Eli was heading
to the silly but the call went to voicemail, and
Archie said, Eli, you have to know this. Tiki just
blew up Coughlin. When you arrive at work, they're going
to ask you about it. You need to know about this.
So he said, that's how Eli was like, he wouldn't
(36:18):
have cared. I'm sure if he walked in there, he
would have handled the questions the way he always did.
And he said, but there are certain times where it
was maddening. I needed to call my own son, say
you have to understand this is New York.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Chiki just blew up. Coughlin.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You have to answer this, be prepared. So I always
got to kick out of those Archie stories.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Well, you know, New York has an interesting history. If
you come in as a non star and develop into
one Judge Jeter, Eli Phil Simms, it always works when
you come in, even as a college player, as a star.
John Carlos Stanton, a Rod Carmelo Anthony. I'm probably missing
(36:59):
so Jeremy Shockey was a huge going to be a
star player. There's something about it in New York. Maybe
it's the expectations of New York, like they hold you
most of the great iconic New Yorkers and I wasn't
around during the Man era. If you come in and
develop into one, there's just an appreciation by New Yorkers.
(37:22):
I always think. I think NBA guys know this, like
they not a lot of free agents. That's why Jalen
Bruntson is such a perfect nick. He's becoming a star
in New York. That's exactly how to do it. When
you bring in Marberry. When you bring in it doesn't work,
it doesn't feel the same.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Well the one time, the one time it did was
Reggie Jackson.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
I know we're going back Holme yes years, but he
was a star and he wanted to be a bigger star.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
It worked to the tune of two championships.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Now, it was a pretty ugly ending, but Reggie was
one guy who came in as a star.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It was it was was combustible, but it worked.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
And the relationship with Thurman Munson and they were complete
opposites and at times it got really tense in that clubhouse.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Obviously I wasn't there.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I was thirteen years old, but reading all the accounts,
but Reggie became an even bigger star and just just
thrived on that spotlight and all the tension around that team.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, I want to get a Knicks discussion in because
the free agent stuff today. When this airs on Friday,
the free agent opens up. I've said this, I believe
Jalen Brunson is the perfect New York Knicks star. So
when I lived in Connecticut and I still have friends
in New York, the Knicks were actually the most popular team.
(38:42):
Here's why. Because my baseball friends were split and my
NFL fans were split, Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets. Everybody had
the Knicks. As their favorite New York team or second
like some people would be big Yankee fans, but the Knicks,
the natural were irrelevant the Knicks. Every friend I had
in the Northeast love the Knicks. It's an incredible baseball market.
(39:07):
It reminds me of Golden State. I grew up with
the Rick Berry, Al Addles, the coach, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullen,
Keith Wilkes teams, and then they were bad forever, and
people forgot how great the Bay Area is at a
basketball city. When I lived out East, I couldn't believe
the Knicks would sell out. They were poorly owned, poorly run,
(39:30):
not likable, couldn't get tickets. And I said a couple
months ago, I said, Jalen Brunson is literally like Phil Simms.
He's becoming a star in New York and I don't
know how great he is. That guy fits that city
like Villanova, late rounder, tough, accountable, almost better in big spots,
(39:56):
like better in the fourth than the first quarter, better
against the heat than he would be against them. Magic.
They have Julius Randall, there's Josh Hart, there's RJ.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Barrett.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
To you, Randall feels like an expensive two. He's probably
more of a three. Do you think there is a
deal around Brunson that feels like because Brunson's gonna need
another high end player? Is there something Is it a
zion be a fortune teller here? What do you think
feels right?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
I wrote this a while back.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
I always thought Carl Anthony Towns would end up a Nick.
Grew up in New Jersey ties with Leon Rose's running
the Knicks now as his former client. And obviously it
didn't work well with Tibbs the first time around in Minnesota.
They clashed, and I think part of that was Jimmy Butler.
But I think that I know for a fact that
(40:52):
Tom Thibodeau would be more than willing to coach Karl
Anthony Towns again. Now the question is how much better
do you think kat is than Julius Randall? Is there
a significant difference between those two players. I think he's
better than Randall and Randall Colin if you look at it.
And his two playoff opportunities with the Knicks hasn't played
that well. Now, he did restore most of his value
(41:15):
this year after last year's near disaster, but he played
at a really high level in the regular season this year,
and I think he does have value around the league
to some extent. So I think you could package him
with the Knicks have a lot of draft assets and
some good emerging young players to get a Carl Anthony
Towns if you feel like now, I do believe now
(41:36):
that I didn't think this when they got Jalen Brunson.
I think you can win a championship with Jalen Brunson
as your second best player. I did not think that
when they signed him. I don't know how you felt.
I just can't get over how impressed I am with
him and everything you said I agree with about Brunson
on and off the court. Brunson, See, here's the problem
(41:58):
with the Knicks. To me, it's almost in our J
Barrett problem. R. J. Barrett is a good player, and
he's going to be a good player for a long time.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
But I don't think he'll ever be a great player.
And the problem is.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
When you're six to six in the NBA in today's NBA,
and he's a good athlete, but he's not explosive athletically,
and he's not a good outside shooter, not a good
shooter from three. So I think when you're six to
six in the NBA, that'd be great or at least
very good. You have to be one of those things.
And so he represents the franchise the right way. He's
a hard worker, he's a good player, and I'm just
(42:30):
not sure he's ever going to be more than that.
So if he's positioned to be your third star, I'm
not sure that's good enough. So if you yes, should
they try to be in on Zion Whimson. Absolutely. I
think Zion always wanted to play for the Knicks, and
you could bring him in here and say, just get
in shape, and you can take New York away from
the two Arrans, Judge and Rogers. This city will be
(42:52):
yours because I was there in the nineties when the
Knicks were good, knocking on the door and never won
a title. They were bigger than the Yankees who were
winning titles. We're both on the MSG network, the Knicks
with the number one property on that network, so it
can happen. Zion Williamson, you come to New York, which
is where you wanted to be coming out of Duke,
get in shape, play seventy out of eighty two games,
(43:12):
and you can take this city away from the two Hounds.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I think that's that's certainly possible.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, I think Carl Anthony Towns is more offensively skilled
than Julius Randall. He doesn't give you the consistent effort.
Julius is one of those players that plays hard every night,
and that is so important in the regular season, but
when everybody plays hard in the playoffs, his dominance is
reduced and he becomes a really solid player. He really
is an effort guy. He just out works people and
(43:40):
ends up with twenty three points in the regular season.
So I think he's a and he's pretty expensive. I
like Julius Randall. I feel like the league sort of
left him, like he gives you a bucket, not a three,
And I feel like the Lakers kind of bailed on him.
And I had a conversation with a Laker executive once.
I'm like, you know, nobody plays harder, nobody shows up
every night. He just needs to be your three, not
(44:01):
your two or your one. So I'm with you. I
think if they get a one Jalen Bruns into two,
I think they'll move RJ.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Barrett.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I'm with you. There's not really a there there, Like
there's a lot of guys in my years of being
a sportscaster. There are guys in the NBA. I mean
Andrew Wiggins. Was this in Minnesota? You got twenty four
a night. You didn't remember a bucket, You just didn't,
And it's just like, how did he score? There was
a player Sharif Abdul Raheem. Do you remember him?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
The four un I do?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, sure, twenty four a night. I don't remember any
of the points. And then there's guys like Julius Randall
or Brunson. You remember all of them. They're very impactful.
So I think Karl Anthony Towns works and they also
the Knicks also have some big athletic guys like Obi Toppin.
They're not great players, but they certainly can be excellent
rotational players in a place like Minnesota. They've got some
(44:51):
size and athleticism in youth.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, Mitchell Robinson is a good room protector, although he
might have to go in a deal if you're getting
a cat. But I also think if you look at me,
what's Anthony Edwards is still twenty one years old? The
guy's averaging twenty five points a game at age twenty one.
You got Gobert there. I think Julius Randall is a
better fit with Gobert than Karl Anthony Towns is. So
you try to look at it. What's realistic, and it's
(45:16):
not realistic to get certain players in the NBA to
New York. But I think now that they've established some
credibility there and Dolan hasn't talked about as much as
he was years ago.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
I think Kat is a big name that.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Is realistic for a lot of reasons that we've talked
about here.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Now.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
Whether or not he's a guy who can get you
to the NBA finals with Brunson, I don't know. You
might have to upgrade Barrett alongside those two to get
to that point, but I think it's a start.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Ian O'Connor columnist, New York Post, four time New York
Times best selling author. You see the books behind him
on our YouTube page. Coach k Belichick and the Captain,
it is always great to see you, wonderful family, and
uh I love these two to three time a year
visits for us. You give me kind of the full
(46:06):
I feel like I'm getting a sports page. I'm getting it.
I'm getting like two three days of WFA N with more,
more redeemable opinions and less outrage. But I do miss it, man.
I my wife and I go to the New England area,
uh every year, and in the afternoons I'll turn on
New York Radio and it's just it's just fantastic. It's
(46:28):
all cats and dogs living together and outraged and fired.
But buck Buck Showalter was a genius nine months ago.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
It's ridiculous, it really is. So.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
So the Aaron Rodgers thing is going to be just
fascinating to watch, and I really hope, just given what
Jets fans have been through, that this one actually works.
So that's why I'm being optimistic about ten and seven
making the playoffs and then coming back in year two and
maybe having a shot to get to the to the
big Game.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
But we'll see. It should be fine.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Hey, Farv was seven and three before he got hurt.
It was working. I remember it, You remember it.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
It was working.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
It was people were talking about a Jets Giants super
Bowl that year. They were actually what I think there
were seven and four. Maybe no, they were eight and three.
I'm sorry, they were eight and three and the Giants
I think they were eleven and zero and Farv's arm
fell off or else the Jets would have been in
the playoffs with them. People forget that. They look at
far to the Jets as a disaster. It wasn't a disaster. No,
(47:28):
it got messy at the end, but when he was healthy,
he was still a good football player. You proved that
in Minnesota and the Jets would have made the playoffs.
So I'm hoping that's the case with Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Well, both Farv and Rogers and Eli had a strong
enough arm for those late fall, early winter home games,
which is a real thing in New York. That's not
the easiest stadium to throw in. Rogers has a hose,
Farv did, and Eli always had a really strong arm,
So that's a big part of those quarterbacks and the dimensions.
They're good seeing you, Ian Hey, thanks for everything, Colin
(48:00):
hit you back
Speaker 1 (48:15):
The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
All right, we're going to get to Ian O'Connor talk
all things Mets implosion, Yankees limitations, Aaron Rodgers and the Jets.
Are the Giants well run in New York? And who
is Jalen Brunson's co pilot to take the Knicks to
a different level? The great Ian O'Connor good forty minute interview.
(00:32):
Can't wait, so Woes reports that the Sixers. Harden is
opting in to the seventy six Ers, going to sign
a contract, but Philadelphia is going to seek trade options.
This is, of course the right move. Tyrese Maxi is
ascending into a number two and beat his a number one.
(00:55):
Tobias Harris is certainly good enough to be a three.
Harden is not a trustable, winning post season player. You
get nothing on the defensive end. He's quirky, he's odd.
He has become a better distributor over time, never been
in great shape. I just don't think he's a winning
(01:16):
basketball player. And I've said this about a lot of
dynamic guards Westbrook Wall, Derrick Rose, James Harden, highlight reels,
John Morant. I don't think they're winning players. I just
think they're gifted players, So I think Darryl Morey, the
GM of the Sixers, is making the right move. NBA
gms are desperate suckers for talent, and you will be
(01:39):
able to find somebody that takes James Harden. But I
think they're a better team without him. What I would
try to find is another dynamic guard who will give
you something on the defensive end. Now there is speculation
that they know perhaps Philadelphia's interest that in Damian Lillard.
(02:01):
I don't know that to be true, but you know,
I get into these discussions all the time. You know,
Kyrie Irving is visiting Phoenix. Drama is a killer in
the NBA. It destroyed the Mavericks and Memphis late in
the year, destroyed them. The Lakers got rid of Westbrook
played great basketball. Harden is drama. The Brooklyn team when
(02:24):
you had to harden a Kyrie Durant, three Hall of Famers,
nothing but drama. And the reason being is an NBA
locker room is a smaller locker room, fewer players, so
one agitator can blow up the rest of the locker room.
Whereas in baseball, a third of the team pitchers down
in the bullpen, professional football, half the guys one side
(02:46):
of the field, half the guys the other. Basketball one plane,
thirteen guys, seven that matter, eight that play, one selfish agitator,
one quirky odd personality blows up room. So bones Highland
at the trading deadline shipped out of Denver. Chemistry got better.
They never look back. So to me, Kyrie Irving creates drama.
(03:11):
Ja Morant now drama, James Harden drama. These guys are
team killers. But there is a unique relationship with young
NBA fans, not all NBA fans, but young fans who
wear the sneakers of stars that they're emotionally attached to
players like international soccer fans are to their Messi and
(03:32):
Ronaldo's that they look past their flaws because they wear
their players. You don't wear cleats from football players or
baseball players. You don't walk around with a glove. If
you look at what the NBA has, the fans, especially
young fans, have a much higher level of tolerance of
bullshit with NBA stars because they wear them. That's why
(03:54):
the Jordan Lebron debate is so fierce. It's not just
Michael's game, it's Michael's shoes. There are people that collect them.
Every time they get up in the morning, they go
to their closet and have twelve pairs of Jordan's right.
So the loyalty to an international soccer star and the
loyalty to an NBA star from young fans is so
(04:18):
intense and deeply embedded emotionally that they just overlook Westbrook,
Wall Harden, Steph Marbury's flaws. They wear their stuff. But
I think the smartest gms in the league. Sometimes you
have to take on a player that's high maintenance to
get you to another place. But I think Philadelphia is
absolutely making the right move sign Harden. Move him. There's
(04:42):
a sucker out there every minute. Somebody needs offense, you know.
I mean to be honest with you. Westbrook worked briefly
with the Clippers. They needed somebody to run the offense.
They had good wings and Paul George and Kawhi missed
so many games. Westbrook shows up every night, gives you
thirty four minutes, give your production. He kind of worked
with the Clippers like if Kawhi and Paul George played
(05:04):
every night, he'd be disruptive, but they don't. That's why
I thought Westbrook, with Ad and Lebron would work Lebron's
old missus thirty games, eighty misses games all the time.
He'd be productive, he'd play, he'd play hard. So but
I think Harden got the Sixers to a level before
Maxi was ready to be the number two. I think
(05:26):
they needed Harden to be the two. But I think
they're making this move for a lot of reasons. One
better chemistry and two tyrese. Maxie is now ready to
be the second star, the co pilot, the robin to
the batman now woes. Reports that the Clippers and the
Knicks will engage with the Sixers, I do not think
(05:48):
it fits for the Knicks. I wouldn't be surprised if
Harden's people are leaking that they don't need him. They
don't need a ball centric guard. They have their pilot,
they have their quarterback in Jalen Brunson. They need a
big who can score. As far as the Clippers, they've
(06:08):
been looking for a guard for years. They tried John Wall,
didn't work. They tried Westbrook sort of work, but it's
not a long term plan. I don't think Harden is
the answer. But in a city where they're trying to
grab market, share going into a new building. Harden's a star,
Kawhi is a star. Paul George is a semi star.
Paul George and Kawhi are very good defensive players. Hardens not,
(06:31):
so that does help Harden's case. The Clippers feel much
more realistic than the next two. Well, he's my favorite
East Coast voice. Ian O'Connor a four time New York
Times best selling author the book on Coach k Derek
Jeter Belichick three for three, All Fantastic, New York Daily News, Now,
(06:54):
The New York Post, USA Today, ESBN, known him, loved
him for years. He is now joining us, and we
got a lot to talk about. So I remember when
I lived in Connecticut. You're really in the belly of
the beast Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Phillies. It's just sports
talk is driven by it out West. It is not.
(07:14):
It's more of an NBA NFL discussion. But the intensity
and the passion is redeemable. And I missed so much
not hearing Sports Talk Radio New York. After the Mets
late inning Melton against the Phillies, I watched it. I
just happened to stumble on it. Good hell. Ian, that
(07:38):
is as hits, batsman walks one hit, multiple runs. What
was that? The tipping point? Is Buck Showalter in trouble
after that moment?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
I don't know if it's a tipping point, Colin, because
it feels like I live with a fatalistic Mets fan.
My wife spent a diehard Mets fan for forty five
fifty years basically, and so it feels like they just
run into each other and I can't differentiate.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
One from the other.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And I don't think it's the tipping point as far
as Showalter is concerned, because last year he won one
hundred and one games. That's the second most victories in
the history of the New York Mets franchise. Davy Johnson
won one hundred and eight nineteen eighty six, and nobody's
done better than Showalter did in year one.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So I don't think you can fire him in the
middle of year two.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I really don't, And so I think he deserves the
rest of the season. However, it unfolds and it's getting
uglier by the hour, and then have the conversation in
the offseason is he worthy of year three? But I
think to whack him in the middle of two would
be doing him a real injustice, because just based on
his track record, he did so much good last year.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
That I think, actually, you could make a case.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I remember the general manager of the Mets, Steve Phillips,
did this in nineteen ninety nine. The Mets were unraveling
and one night he decided, I'm going to fire all
of Valentine's coaches, and the Mets went on an absolute tear,
made the playoffs and almost made the World.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Series that year.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
You could argue it makes sense to fire a coach
right now, or maybe they should have done it last
week and try to ignite the team that way, keeping
Showalter and the GM Billy Eppler in place at least
for now, I think that makes more sense.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
In firing show Old.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You know, they're not hitting, they're not getting the ball
in play, if Pete Alonso's not healthy, they don't have
any power. It's pretty simple. They're not doing anything particularly well.
But I would argue, if you look at the Verlanders
and the Shrsers, they were built for late season baseball.
They almost assumed they would be good late in the year.
They built this team, you know, for July. You know,
(09:45):
I would say August fifteenth, on to be ready to go.
So you know, when I look, I always feel you
can buy relevance. It's very difficult to buy wins. Lindor's
not playing well, they're not hitting. I was thinking about
this before the interview today. I can't remember the last
(10:06):
because the Mets team last year really struggled to put
together runs and rallies. It wasn't a great hitting team.
It lacked power. When is the last? Maybe it's just again,
you would know this. When's the last Mets team that
was an offensive power?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
That's a good question, and I'm going back to two thousand.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
They're in the World Series against the Yankees, and They've
had a few teams here and there that I would
put in that category at least close to it, certainly
not this one. And you're right, Lindor is now a
three hundred and forty one million dollar player, though he's
been playing better lately, and that's part of the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Now. Steve Collen just had a press conference.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
I'm not sure why he called that press commers, because
they really say a whole hell of a lot other
than he's fortunate to have found Billy Eppler as general manager.
Yet I'm still looking for a president baseball operations to
effectively replace him.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So I'm not sure how that makes much sense.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
A lot of people in baseball believe David Sterens and
the Milwaukee Brewers will be the guy in the offseason
when he's finally a free agent. I think Steve Cohen's
been trying to hire him for a couple of years.
And then you go from there. But it's starting pitching.
The Mets, who used to be known for starting pitching.
That's really what's failed them colin this year, and it's
been a domino effect from that point. It's Verlander, he
(11:20):
gives you five innings, he throws a hundred pitches, he's
got to come out. Now you have to go to
the middle relief. That's been a real problem on this team,
trying to get to the good back of the bullpen arms.
And even last night with Hartway coming in the game
a tied game and right away you're trailing.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's been the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
It's saying to Verlander and other pitchers, the starting pitchers
not giving you any length, and then you're using the
worst players on your team as a bridge, and it's
a very wobbly one at that and that's really been
a big part of why the Mets are where they are.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I think one of the things I learned when I
lived back out East and I actually miss it, is
the intensity of the media, the intensity of the pressure.
For all the money the Mets have now and for
all the money the Yankees have had for years, I
couldn't say the last time the Yankees drafted and developed
an ace. They just they went and purchase pitching. And
(12:15):
I understand that. You could say they have great revenue,
but so do the Braves, and they do it so
to of the Dodgers, and they do it. Braves have
no problem with that. It's not just a revenue issue.
Is it possible that? And I saw this with the
Brooklyn Nets. The downside in New York is it's expensive
to live there, it's expensive to travel. You need to win.
(12:35):
People aren't going to spend money on those tickets. When
there's two NFL teams, two Baseball teams, two NBA that
some of what has happened in New York Baseball is
just a pressure cooker in the reality of this baseball
centric market. It puts enormous pressure on players.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Well, certainly that's part of it, and particularly when baseball
is the ultimate like golf, the ultimate game of failure.
Top of that, the twenty four to seven scrutiny in
the social media age New York being the biggest, loudest
market is certainly in there among the reasons that you
could rank at the top of the list as to
why the Mets in particular are unraveling this season.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I think the Yankees with.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
That third wildcard are going to make the playoffs every year,
that third wildcard. And with the Mets, who should keep
you If you're spending X amount of dollars, you should
be in the tournament. And in baseball, as you know,
we saw last year with the Phillies, and of course
they made a change in the middle of the season
firing Girardi. Once you get in anything can happen, particularly
in baseball. It's like, and I had this conversation with
(13:38):
Alex Rodriguez years ago, and to some extent with Aaron Judge.
In baseball or in basketball, you give Lebron James and
his prime the ball every time up the floor in
a big spot. You can't send Aaron Judge or a
rod to the plate every time in the ninth inning
in a big spot in October. It's not the way
baseball works. So there's a lot on the individual superstar
(13:58):
in baseball. Like gayalnd Or is not really a superstar.
He's not playing like one or any of these guys
to try to carry a team because they can only
do so much.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It's the nature of that sport.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So I think there's a lot of pressure on the
stars in baseball because they can't impact winning and losing
like a quarterback in football or a two guard in
the NBA.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
New York magnifies that in baseball.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And I think again, going back to the Mets where
they are right now, is that they didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Develop the picture that they did develop.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
The Grom left, of course, and Matt Harvey was good
for a while they developed him, and right now they
don't have a top pitching prospect.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So Cohen realized that when he bought the team.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So I'm going to go out and spend a ton
of money on the Max Scherzers and Justin Verlanders and
try to do it that way. The problem is that
leaves you with a four hundred and forty five million
dollar bill at the end of the season that could
be a sub five hundred season.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know, you tweeted something the other day about Otani
and the Mets, and it's kind of understood. The Dodgers
this offseason pulled back. They let Cody Bellinger go. Kershaw's
contract was quick, justin Turner. They pulled back on revenue,
and the feeling was they were saving another seventy five
(15:17):
million for the Otani deal. A remarkable player, but the
Angels are literally the least talked about franchise in Southern
California outside of the hockey teams, So the Dodgers. There's
a real sense that Otani and the Dodgers are working
behind the scenes. Though though the Angels have said we'd
never trade for him, I'm not sure or trade him.
I'm not sure why if I could get if I
(15:38):
could get something for Otani knowing he's leaving, So there's
a sense in Southern California he'll be a Dodger. They
certainly have the revenue streams. They outdraw I think the
second place Yankees by seven thousand people per game. I mean,
the Dodgers are an enormously popular franchise like the Yankees.
In New York, it's an ATM machine. Boston doesn't feel
like they can compete financially. John Carlos Stanton, It's not
(16:03):
a miss, but it's not worth what they paid for.
Garrett Cole's not a miss, but it doesn't feel like
it's been a hit. Sure'ser not a hit. Would the
Mets of the Yankees be willing to spend the most
money ever on a baseball star? Would they?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think the Mets will and the Yankees will not
be willing to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I think Garrett call I'd push back a little bit
on that.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I think he's had a couple of shaky postseason moments,
but he's I think he's lived up to.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
The terms of his contract, and so I.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Think Steve Cohen, now this is more reason for him
to god and spend god knows what six hundred and
fifty million dollars to try to outbid the Dodgers for Otani.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
This is going to be fascinating to watch because the Mets.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Are going to miss the playoffs or eight and a
half games behind the third wildcard spot, which is really
hard to believe at four hundred and forty five million
when you include the revenue luxury taxes that Steve Cohen
is paying so is he going to double down when
his arm system is not producing great talent right now,
at least on the pitching front. And we'll see about Alvarez,
who I think will be a really good catcher for
(17:09):
the next dozen years for the Mets.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Baby will see.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
But I do think Steve Cohen now has more reason
to go all in on Otani and try to outbid
the Dodgers and just spend them into oblivion. He is
a guy who's worth eighteen billion dollars or close to it.
So that is going to be a deathmatch in the
offseason between the Dodgers and the Mets.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I think the Dodgers will win it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
They're certainly the leader in the clubhouse, but I think
Steve Cohen is going to make them really sweat on
that one and spend a lot more money than they
really want to spend.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
All right, pivot to football. The early season schedule is
rough for the Jets. Aaron's never played behind a mediocre
offensive line. One of the things New England and the
Packers have done is established consistent top ten O lines
without drafting offensive lineman in the first round. So I
mean he's had Pro bowlers all over the O line.
(18:07):
So this O line is Elijah Vera Tucker, major questions
at both tackles. I believe a rookie center, not a
ton of depth. I think it's a little bit of
an undoing for this is going to be first defensive
coach for Aaron Rodgers, first suboptimal O line, really tough
(18:28):
division and a harsh city that's not terribly forgiving. What
is a realistic expectation for the Jets nation? For the
people you talk to when you write a column, the reaction,
It's easy for me to just say, I mean, I
think it's a nine win team, The division's probably the
best in football. What say you and a New Yorker
(18:51):
who's a Jets fan? What is realistic that will satisfy
them at year end? Take a Super Bowl out.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I'll say ten and seven, make the Wildcard, finish second
behind Buffalo, and win a Wildcard round game and then
losing the Division round at Kansas City at Cincinnati, get
whacked in that second playoff game.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
But I think that's the problem is look at that schedule.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I mean, the first ten games, they could be three
and seven and not be playing that poorly. So they're
playing both Super Bowl teams, right Philly and Kansas City.
They're in that division. They're starting against Buffalo but at home,
so that's a game they really almost have to win
if you look at the first ten games. So I
(19:34):
think the formula for success, at least the way I
define it is go four and six in those first
ten games, and then they're winnable games those finals seven.
They can go maybe five and two sixty one, sneak
into the playoffs as a wildcard, win a game, and
then face the end in the division round at Kansas City.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So I think that's a successful season.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
And then add to enter year two of Aaron Rogers
as one of the Super Bowl favorites to get out
of the AFC, I think that is at least somewhat realistic,
but maybe too real, too optimistic.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Perhaps.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
In talking to some Jets fans who are used to
I always say this, they hate when I say it.
The Jets have not reached the Super Bowl, never mind
win one since man stepped on the moon. That was
a long time ago, so they're used to. They're wired
to feel the worst is going to happen. But I'm
going to be pretty optimistic. I'll say ten and seven
and make the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, it'll be really interesting because the Packers furnished him
with very good protection and two offensive coaches. Say what
you will about Mike McCarthy, there is We're seeing this
in New England with Belichick, who's virtually tone deaf to
offense made a DCDOC can't draft skilled players to save
his life. Even the best defensive coaches, they really they
(20:53):
don't talk the same language. So this is Aaron's and
Nathaniel Hackett's coming off for bruising, ugly performance in Denver.
So I do feel the pressure is really on Aaron
to run the offense, and he's okay at that, but
he can also be a little aloof and a little
disengaged at times. Here's the thing that I've noticed about
Aaron that I don't think he's a bad guy. He
(21:17):
can be a little bit of a finger pointer, a
little passive aggressive when things go south. New York is
going to force you to answer tough questions. A Green
Bay Midwestern media in is just not the same like
you drived. I can remember driving to work when I
was at ESPN and I would turn on like New
York radio and it would set the tone for the
(21:38):
discussion of the week, Like it's a tone setter, and
I think you can kind of roll your eyes if
you're Aaron Rodgers at the small market, you know, Green Bay, relax,
you go relax. To New Yorkers, that's not gonna play like.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
They don't relax.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
What they're known for is intensity. How do you think
the Aarin media thing will play out?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Well?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
So far, it's been in a really good marriage. I
think he came in wanting to make the best possible
impression on the New York market, the fans, and the media.
I think the New York media thing is a little
bit of a mid since I've been in it for
thirty seven years. In that I think there's just more
of us. We'd probably judge you a little more harshly
than every other market outside of Philly and Boston. But
(22:23):
I don't think the New York media is unfair. It's
large and it's tough, but not unfair. So he's got
an opportunity here. I think if you ever won a championship,
what would that do for his legacy? I mean, you
have Tom Brady's sitting there on the top of the
mountain with seven rings and Aaron's at one. If you
want to close that legacy gap to win a Super
(22:44):
Bowl for the New York Jets would go a long
way towards doing that, And so I think Rogers he
may have been disengaged in Green Bay, particularly at the
end he does. He has occasionally pointed fingers in a
passive aggressive way, but he hasn't been that figure so
far in New York at all. I went out to
all the open OTAs and by all accounts talking to players, coaches, executives,
(23:10):
he has been fully engaged in meeting rooms and practices
and just watching him. He's constantly talking to receivers, the
tight ends, offensive linemen, Hey do this. Let's talk about
that cut you just made coming out of your route.
I kind of like you to do it this way.
There's been a ton of that so so far. It's early.
Obviously we haven't started training camp yet. He has been
(23:33):
a very very good leader on and off the field
by all accounts. Let's see if it holds up and
let's see how that translates on the field in September
when they play for real. But as much as people
have talked about what an all time great quarterback can
do for this hapless franchise. I think there's a lot
that New York Jets can do for Aaron Rodgers. Like
(23:54):
I just said, if he somehow can win one in
the two or three years that he plays here in
New York and gets number two, it's going to feel
like he won four rings. It's almost like what Messier
did coming in New York in ninety four, even though
he had won five in Edmonton. He wins a Cup
ends a what a fifty fifty four year drought, and
(24:14):
the one cup people talk about when they talk about
his legacy is the one he won for the Rangers
in New York.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And he'll tell you that too.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
So I think that's the kind of opportunity that Rogers has.
Let's see how it plays out.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
There's a book behind you, Belichick. It's a great book.
I highly recommend to our audience. I had ian on
for the Coach K book. I thought it's just the
definitive book on Coach K and the Duke program Captain
with Derek Jeter and Belichick and Belichick. You know, if
(24:49):
you go look at the history of sports, there'll be
cultural changes in all of them. We've seen it with
baseball analytics. You know, it used to be the strikeout.
Dave Kingman was almost like a cartoonish. Today he'd be
Cody Bellinger, right, home run or strike it. It's not
as punitive, right like analytics have changed in football. It's
(25:12):
not as anally analytically driven as basketball, NBA, the three
point shot, small ball, although I do think we're pivoting
back to international bigs and highly skilled bigs. But in
the NFL it's more of an offensive league, mostly because
of that nearly billion dollar check they wrote for CTE
head injuries. This league is all about offense. It's good
for ratings, it's good for fantasy, and it's good for
(25:34):
lawsuits like don't write, don't be too there's already a
regular level of violence. And so if you look at
the remaining coaches the last several years, they're all offensive.
I think it was two years ago every NFC playoff
team had an offensive coach. Belichick has looked particularly tone
(25:55):
deaf dealing with Mac Jones and you know that whole culture.
I'm going to throw a theory at you and a
shoot holes in it. But Belichick largely ran the Patriots dynasty.
Robert Kraft hands off. Brady was never subversive. Ever, it
was Bill's team. In fact, later he complained about not
(26:15):
having a say in the offense, and so Brady eventually
leaves because he just doesn't get control. Even though there
was a moment Tom goes to Craft, they sell off
Garoppolo and it was the one time Belichick was not
running the show. So mac Jones comes in. McEnroe. Jones
(26:37):
a little bit of an ego, a little bit of
an attitude, and it feels like Bill is really punishing
him and marginalizing him. They re signed DeVonta Parker, Juju Smith, Schuster.
Those are players that need coaching in schemes to get opened.
They do not separate. They have no tight end or
receiver that is an ad libber, a playmaker. Maybe the
(26:58):
slowest team in the perimeter in the league. And what
it does, it drives the organization once again back through
Bill run game defense. I'm not going to create a
quarterback who is so powerful that can go through the owner.
And maybe I'm reaching on this, but I'm watching their moves.
(27:21):
They make no sense. They drafted three guards and two kickers.
First three picks were defense. They're the slowest offense in
the league. Doesn't it strike you odd over the last
two drafts two years, the lack of in a cultural shift,
the lack of offensive awareness. Am I missing something? No?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think it has been very surprising.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
And Bill's history though, if you look at how many
Hall of famers true Hall of famers did Tom Brady
ever play with Randy Moss? They didn't win a championship together,
that didn't last long, and of course Gronk Outside of that,
in terms of weapons, Brady was elevating a whole lot
of people out there. So and Mac Jones, he's not
Tom Brady. He has a chance maybe to win a
(28:06):
championship or two. This is such a huge year for
him now that he has a real offensive coordinator. Again
at Bill O'Brien and Belichick has never really been big
on drafting weapons and running a high powered offense, even
though in two thousand and seven when they brought in
Randy Moss and Wes Welker was at the height of
(28:27):
his powers too. That offense was a complete juggernaut and
shattered all kinds of records. And in my book I
gave Bill credit for being a defensive genius, probably the
best defensive coach of all time and suddenly shifting and
with help from his staff of course, but utilizing the
turning that slot position into such a weapon which in
(28:49):
everybody tried to copy, and then later going with the
two tight ends with Gronk and Hernandez and so he
became a bit of an innovator on offense. But you're right,
and I think Brady would complain privately to people about
where are my weapons. He did have Randy Moss maybe
the greatest receiver of all time for a little while.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
They didn't win one together they should have.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
But outside of that and Gronka tight end, he's been
doing or did do, a ton of elevating of people
who were pretty good to good football players, but not
great players at the skill position slots. So I think, yeah,
on one hand, it's a bit surprising. On the other hand,
when has he done it? He just had a much
(29:34):
better quarterback than he has right now.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, I want to talk to giants. I had this
rant a couple of weeks ago, and I said, we've
always known how great Peyton Manning is, but because of
his greatness, we never quite gave Eli Manning his just
deserves his two greatest passes in the Super Bowl as
he beat Brady and Belichick were to Mario Manningham and
David Tyree, Plexico and him had some good days, but
(30:02):
he did it with a defensive line, a little bit
of a rigid head coach. He didn't have great offensive lines.
And I said, if you take Eli's prime of twelve
years out, what have the Giants been in twenty years?
Is that because of Peyton's greatness in kind of flamboyant,
funny personality. Eli's much funnier now that he's retired. That
(30:27):
are the Giants really well run? They ran through gms,
They've run through coaches that we've never quite said to ourselves.
Yeah he wanted oh miss. He beat Brady Belichick twice.
He never had great receiving. Course, I'll ask you take
(30:50):
out Eli's twelve prime years, it's an abysmal record. Are
the Giants? Are the Giants well run?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Well?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I said this before, but John Marraw was a good
owner when he had a good head coach and a
good quarterback, and that was Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning.
When he didn't, he was a bad owner, and that
lasted a while. And now he's got a GM in
place in Joe Shane, the head coach in Dable, and
maybe a quarterback in Daniel Jones, who know what they're doing.
(31:19):
So he's back to being a pretty good owner again.
But he was a bad owner for a while. There's
no question it was making bad hires. Gettlemen and some
of the coaches that were brought in Pat Shermer. I mean,
that never made any sense to hire that guy. And
so finally I think they got it right. And they've
had some dark periods, of course in their history. The
(31:40):
Giants have followed by some tremendous periods with Parcels and
then with Coughlin to really, if you look at it
in that Coughlin Eli era that you're talking about their
best team, they really should have won three titles. Their
best team was the twenty eight team, if Plaxico doesn't
accidentally shoot himself. Kaughlin told me they thought they were
(32:00):
winning the whole thing. That was the only dominant Giants team.
They were eleven to zero that year, and then all
hell broke loose after the Plaxico accidental shooting. So they
could have won three titles and they blew it and
so never got that one back. But yes, you could
(32:21):
certainly argue the Giants were a poorly run franchise.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
If you take you take it away a lot, though
that's a lot of years.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
There that Eli was a good I don't think Eli
was ever a great or one of the best three
quarterbacks in the NFL in any particular season, but he
was very opportunistic and he was good. And then he
was great in the biggest moments against the greatest coach
and greatest quarterback of all time, and that'll probably get
(32:48):
him in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I always felt he had a unique ability. You know,
they talked about when he was a kid and nothing
bothered him, whereas Eli was whereas Peyton Manning was known
as a bit of a heath clencher in big moments,
really intense. People I know who know Peyton very very intense.
I've done a couple of interviews where I've had Peyton
and Eli together and Eli's always like late and Peyton
(33:14):
dogged him, and Eli's laughing Eli had. It's not aloof
because he has no arrogance. Eli had. I just I
love the guy he's got. He reminds me a little
bit of my son. Everything rolls off his back. Nothing
is outrageous. He's just and I think some of that Ian,
I don't know if you have relationships like this that
(33:35):
his brother was so intense. Maybe it's to curry favor
with dad and mom. He was the funny guy right
like in the family. And so I always thought Eli's
personality it was so unique. You know, Brady's so focused
and Russell Wilson so focused, and it's like Eli's like
this kind of country, smart, funny. Pressure doesn't face him.
(33:58):
I remember early in his career thinking this guy is
one of the best two minute quarterbacks. It was literally like,
can we just keep him in the two minute drill
the rest of the game. I have my apprehension he
was what was he like to cover?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Interesting?
Speaker 3 (34:12):
And so he's as you said, he's shown more of
his personality and retirement than he did as an active player.
But he was accountable and always there, and he had
a little rule, if we win, I'm not talking on Mondays.
He had his usual day of Wednesdays when he talked
before the next game, if we lose, I'll talk on
Mondays because I want to take my fair share of
(34:34):
the blame.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And when the Giants won on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
He wanted to make sure other teammates had their moment
in the sun on Monday with the media and didn't
want to de track from that. I remember one time
they were playing the Patriots in the regular season. He
had already beaten the Patriots in the Super Bowl once,
if not twice, and it was a Monday and they
were coming off a win. And I went to the
Giants PR people and I said, hey, you guys are
playing the Patriots.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's Eli.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
I know you won yesterday, and he wants his teammates
to get the credit. He needs to talk today, even
if it's just for six minutes. So one of the
PR reps walked over to Eli whispered to him. I
saw him, not his head, and he understood.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
He got it. He realized that that was a day,
that was one.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Day he needed to make an exception because it was
the New England Patriots that they were playing the following Sunday.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And he did it. Eli always did the right thing,
and that was the right thing. It was. It's a
little window into his soul.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
I had conversations many with Archie about the difference between
Peyton and Eli, and Archie said, could you imagine if
Peyton ever played in New York, he said, the media
and Peyton would have been at each other's throats.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
In week one of his rookie year.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
He said, Peyton would have It would have been a
disaster Peyton in New York. So he said, thankfully that
never happened. Eli was the perfect personality for New York because,
like you said, he let everything roll off his back.
I remember one time Archie told me that it was
a day where Tiki Barber just ripped Coughlin in the
media and Archie called up Eli on the phone and
(35:58):
realizing Eli didn't care, was obliviou and Eli was heading
to the silly but the call went to voicemail, and
Archie said, Eli, you have to know this. Tiki just
blew up Coughlin. When you arrive at work, they're going
to ask you about it. You need to know about this.
So he said, that's how Eli was like, he wouldn't
(36:18):
have cared. I'm sure if he walked in there, he
would have handled the questions the way he always did.
And he said, but there are certain times where it
was maddening. I needed to call my own son, say
you have to understand this is New York.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Chiki just blew up. Coughlin.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You have to answer this, be prepared. So I always
got to kick out of those Archie stories.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Well, you know, New York has an interesting history. If
you come in as a non star and develop into
one Judge Jeter, Eli Phil Simms, it always works when
you come in, even as a college player, as a star.
John Carlos Stanton, a Rod Carmelo Anthony. I'm probably missing
(36:59):
so Jeremy Shockey was a huge going to be a
star player. There's something about it in New York. Maybe
it's the expectations of New York, like they hold you
most of the great iconic New Yorkers and I wasn't
around during the Man era. If you come in and
develop into one, there's just an appreciation by New Yorkers.
(37:22):
I always think. I think NBA guys know this, like
they not a lot of free agents. That's why Jalen
Bruntson is such a perfect nick. He's becoming a star
in New York. That's exactly how to do it. When
you bring in Marberry. When you bring in it doesn't work,
it doesn't feel the same.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Well the one time, the one time it did was
Reggie Jackson.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
I know we're going back Holme yes years, but he
was a star and he wanted to be a bigger star.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
It worked to the tune of two championships.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Now, it was a pretty ugly ending, but Reggie was
one guy who came in as a star.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It was it was was combustible, but it worked.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
And the relationship with Thurman Munson and they were complete
opposites and at times it got really tense in that clubhouse.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Obviously I wasn't there.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I was thirteen years old, but reading all the accounts,
but Reggie became an even bigger star and just just
thrived on that spotlight and all the tension around that team.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, I want to get a Knicks discussion in because
the free agent stuff today. When this airs on Friday,
the free agent opens up. I've said this, I believe
Jalen Brunson is the perfect New York Knicks star. So
when I lived in Connecticut and I still have friends
in New York, the Knicks were actually the most popular team.
(38:42):
Here's why. Because my baseball friends were split and my
NFL fans were split, Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets. Everybody had
the Knicks. As their favorite New York team or second
like some people would be big Yankee fans, but the Knicks,
the natural were irrelevant the Knicks. Every friend I had
in the Northeast love the Knicks. It's an incredible baseball market.
(39:07):
It reminds me of Golden State. I grew up with
the Rick Berry, Al Addles, the coach, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullen,
Keith Wilkes teams, and then they were bad forever, and
people forgot how great the Bay Area is at a
basketball city. When I lived out East, I couldn't believe
the Knicks would sell out. They were poorly owned, poorly run,
(39:30):
not likable, couldn't get tickets. And I said a couple
months ago, I said, Jalen Brunson is literally like Phil Simms.
He's becoming a star in New York and I don't
know how great he is. That guy fits that city
like Villanova, late rounder, tough, accountable, almost better in big spots,
(39:56):
like better in the fourth than the first quarter, better
against the heat than he would be against them. Magic.
They have Julius Randall, there's Josh Hart, there's RJ.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Barrett.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
To you, Randall feels like an expensive two. He's probably
more of a three. Do you think there is a
deal around Brunson that feels like because Brunson's gonna need
another high end player? Is there something Is it a
zion be a fortune teller here? What do you think
feels right?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
I wrote this a while back.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
I always thought Carl Anthony Towns would end up a Nick.
Grew up in New Jersey ties with Leon Rose's running
the Knicks now as his former client. And obviously it
didn't work well with Tibbs the first time around in Minnesota.
They clashed, and I think part of that was Jimmy Butler.
But I think that I know for a fact that
(40:52):
Tom Thibodeau would be more than willing to coach Karl
Anthony Towns again. Now the question is how much better
do you think kat is than Julius Randall? Is there
a significant difference between those two players. I think he's
better than Randall and Randall Colin if you look at it.
And his two playoff opportunities with the Knicks hasn't played
that well. Now, he did restore most of his value
(41:15):
this year after last year's near disaster, but he played
at a really high level in the regular season this year,
and I think he does have value around the league
to some extent. So I think you could package him
with the Knicks have a lot of draft assets and
some good emerging young players to get a Carl Anthony
Towns if you feel like now, I do believe now
(41:36):
that I didn't think this when they got Jalen Brunson.
I think you can win a championship with Jalen Brunson
as your second best player. I did not think that
when they signed him. I don't know how you felt.
I just can't get over how impressed I am with
him and everything you said I agree with about Brunson
on and off the court. Brunson, See, here's the problem
(41:58):
with the Knicks. To me, it's almost in our J
Barrett problem. R. J. Barrett is a good player, and
he's going to be a good player for a long time.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
But I don't think he'll ever be a great player.
And the problem is.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
When you're six to six in the NBA in today's NBA,
and he's a good athlete, but he's not explosive athletically,
and he's not a good outside shooter, not a good
shooter from three. So I think when you're six to
six in the NBA, that'd be great or at least
very good. You have to be one of those things.
And so he represents the franchise the right way. He's
a hard worker, he's a good player, and I'm just
(42:30):
not sure he's ever going to be more than that.
So if he's positioned to be your third star, I'm
not sure that's good enough. So if you yes, should
they try to be in on Zion Whimson. Absolutely. I
think Zion always wanted to play for the Knicks, and
you could bring him in here and say, just get
in shape, and you can take New York away from
the two Arrans, Judge and Rogers. This city will be
(42:52):
yours because I was there in the nineties when the
Knicks were good, knocking on the door and never won
a title. They were bigger than the Yankees who were
winning titles. We're both on the MSG network, the Knicks
with the number one property on that network, so it
can happen. Zion Williamson, you come to New York, which
is where you wanted to be coming out of Duke,
get in shape, play seventy out of eighty two games,
(43:12):
and you can take this city away from the two Hounds.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
I think that's that's certainly possible.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, I think Carl Anthony Towns is more offensively skilled
than Julius Randall. He doesn't give you the consistent effort.
Julius is one of those players that plays hard every night,
and that is so important in the regular season, but
when everybody plays hard in the playoffs, his dominance is
reduced and he becomes a really solid player. He really
is an effort guy. He just out works people and
(43:40):
ends up with twenty three points in the regular season.
So I think he's a and he's pretty expensive. I
like Julius Randall. I feel like the league sort of
left him, like he gives you a bucket, not a three,
And I feel like the Lakers kind of bailed on him.
And I had a conversation with a Laker executive once.
I'm like, you know, nobody plays harder, nobody shows up
every night. He just needs to be your three, not
(44:01):
your two or your one. So I'm with you. I
think if they get a one Jalen Bruns into two,
I think they'll move RJ.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Barrett.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I'm with you. There's not really a there there, Like
there's a lot of guys in my years of being
a sportscaster. There are guys in the NBA. I mean
Andrew Wiggins. Was this in Minnesota? You got twenty four
a night. You didn't remember a bucket, You just didn't,
And it's just like, how did he score? There was
a player Sharif Abdul Raheem. Do you remember him?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
The four un I do?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, sure, twenty four a night. I don't remember any
of the points. And then there's guys like Julius Randall
or Brunson. You remember all of them. They're very impactful.
So I think Karl Anthony Towns works and they also
the Knicks also have some big athletic guys like Obi Toppin.
They're not great players, but they certainly can be excellent
rotational players in a place like Minnesota. They've got some
(44:51):
size and athleticism in youth.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Yeah, Mitchell Robinson is a good room protector, although he
might have to go in a deal if you're getting
a cat. But I also think if you look at me,
what's Anthony Edwards is still twenty one years old? The
guy's averaging twenty five points a game at age twenty one.
You got Gobert there. I think Julius Randall is a
better fit with Gobert than Karl Anthony Towns is. So
you try to look at it. What's realistic, and it's
(45:16):
not realistic to get certain players in the NBA to
New York. But I think now that they've established some
credibility there and Dolan hasn't talked about as much as
he was years ago.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
I think Kat is a big name that.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Is realistic for a lot of reasons that we've talked
about here.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Now.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
Whether or not he's a guy who can get you
to the NBA finals with Brunson, I don't know. You
might have to upgrade Barrett alongside those two to get
to that point, but I think it's a start.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Ian O'Connor columnist, New York Post, four time New York
Times best selling author. You see the books behind him
on our YouTube page. Coach k Belichick and the Captain,
it is always great to see you, wonderful family, and
uh I love these two to three time a year
visits for us. You give me kind of the full
(46:06):
I feel like I'm getting a sports page. I'm getting it.
I'm getting like two three days of WFA N with more,
more redeemable opinions and less outrage. But I do miss it, man.
I my wife and I go to the New England area,
uh every year, and in the afternoons I'll turn on
New York Radio and it's just it's just fantastic. It's
(46:28):
all cats and dogs living together and outraged and fired.
But buck Buck Showalter was a genius nine months ago.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
It's ridiculous, it really is. So.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
So the Aaron Rodgers thing is going to be just
fascinating to watch, and I really hope, just given what
Jets fans have been through, that this one actually works.
So that's why I'm being optimistic about ten and seven
making the playoffs and then coming back in year two and
maybe having a shot to get to the to the
big Game.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
But we'll see. It should be fine.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Hey, Farv was seven and three before he got hurt.
It was working. I remember it, You remember it.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
It was working.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
It was people were talking about a Jets Giants super
Bowl that year. They were actually what I think there
were seven and four. Maybe no, they were eight and three.
I'm sorry, they were eight and three and the Giants
I think they were eleven and zero and Farv's arm
fell off or else the Jets would have been in
the playoffs with them. People forget that. They look at
far to the Jets as a disaster. It wasn't a disaster. No,
(47:28):
it got messy at the end, but when he was healthy,
he was still a good football player. You proved that
in Minnesota and the Jets would have made the playoffs.
So I'm hoping that's the case with Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Well, both Farv and Rogers and Eli had a strong
enough arm for those late fall, early winter home games,
which is a real thing in New York. That's not
the easiest stadium to throw in. Rogers has a hose,
Farv did, and Eli always had a really strong arm,
So that's a big part of those quarterbacks and the dimensions.
They're good seeing you, Ian Hey, thanks for everything, Colin
(48:00):
hit you back
Speaker 1 (48:15):
The volume
Host
Colin Cowherd
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