February 29, 2024 • 33 mins
Chris Mannix and Rohan Nadkarni break down if Jason Tatum has a case for MVP after leading the Celtics to the league's bets record so far, LeBron James criticizing mock drafts that don't include his son Bronny, the Buck's recent turnaround under Doc Rivers, and if Damian Lillard is happy in Milwaukee
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Is the Crossover Sports Illustrators MBAB show, bringing them the
latest news, rumors and everything. Here's your hosts. This is
the Crossover NBA Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Chris Mannix, joined as always by Rown, Not Garnee
and Rohan. We are going to lean into one of
your favorite topics today and that.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Is the MVP race.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You are the author of the MVP Ladder over at
SI dot com. We're gonna talk about that, specifically the
case of Jason Tatum, who has become kind of the
topic of the week with his candidacy. His numbers not
you know what other m VP candidates are, but his
team is winning in ways that other MVP candidates are not.
(00:55):
So we're gonna talk about that. We're also going to
get into the Lebron Browny James stuff that's out there
right now. Lebron not happy with the mock drafters, specifically
one thing Jonathan Gavoni kind of kicked this thing off
with his latest mock draft that removed Bronnie James from
(01:15):
the twenty twenty four draft class. And we're gonna talk
a little bit about the Milwaukee Bucks, who are starting
to turn a corner a little bit here, maybe showing
some signs of life in Milwaukee. So let us begin, though,
ron with the MVP race, which is pretty wide open
(01:35):
at the moment. The latest ESPN straw pole taken back
in early February, had Nicole Jokic as a clear leader.
No reason to think he isn't right now. Joel Embiid
was in that mix, but Joel Embiid is now out
of it, given he will not beat the sixty five
game threshold for award winners in the NBA. Shake Gilvis
(01:58):
Alexander fantastic year, Gianniston Decombo fantastic year. Same with Luka Doncic,
same with Kawhi Leonard. The name that has come up
most recently, it's come up partly because he's put it
into the water supply is Jason Tatum, whoever All Star
Weekend said he was the best player in the NBA,
(02:19):
made some comments in the aftermath of that talking about
how he should be considered.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Even though his numbers aren't what other.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
MVP candidates are, because he's on a team that's winning
at the highest level, best record in the NBA, leading
the Eastern Conference by a country mile, and look, he's
had some support. It's Draymond Green out there backing up
Jason Tatum's candidacy. Other players and coaches, ex players and
coaches as well have weighed in on this, So let
(02:49):
me start there with you, how serious is Jason Tatum's
candidacy right now? And should it be more serious given
where Boston is in the standings.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
You know, I think he's got a serious case to
be considered on the ballot, and I think that there's
we should celebrate players who make the ballot. I think
it's an accomplishment to get MVP votes. I think he's
I've had him kind of in that five six range
the last few weeks, especially as Embiid has dropped out.
And listen, there's no doubt the Celtics have been I'd
(03:22):
say the most consistent team in the league by far,
the best team in the East, certainly number one in
net rating for practically the entire season, and Tatum's having
a great year, great individual numbers, and so much of
their offense is based on if Tatum gets a mismatch
and gets someone in the post, basically your defense's toast.
I mean, you're screwed. You got nothing to do. At
(03:45):
the same time, you know, if this was like ten
fifteen years ago. I think Tatum is maybe even running
away with this award because of how often it just
went to the best player on the best team. But
he has a few things working against him. First, you
mentioned the numbers. While they are very very good. I mean,
Giannis is averaging what thirty and eleven. I mean, Luca's
up to nearly thirty five points a game. You know,
(04:08):
Jokic is average, averaging close to a triple double every night.
You know, numbers wise, he's very good, but he's not
necessarily at that level. You know, Shika just killed as
Alexander over thirty points a game. I believe he's at
thirty one right now. And then on the other hand,
you have the fact that Tatum plays for a fantastic team,
and then that's working against him. Here the Celtics, they
(04:30):
have per cleaning the glass. They have an eleven point
four net rating with Tatum on the floor, but with
him off the floor, they have an eight point zero
net rating that still would be one of the best
marks in the league. So the fact that the team
can play that well without him. You think about those
two years Jokic won MVP, he had historical splits in
terms of his on off court differential. I'm not saying
(04:51):
that's the end all be all for most valuable player,
but when you're judging value, that's an important metric, and
that that's something that hurts Tatum. You know, it's funny
Becau I wrote about this today, Chris. You mentioned Tatum
and his numbers. You look at a guy like Donovan
Mitchell scoring a little bit better than Tatum, field gold
percentage right in the same range, not as many rebounds,
more assists for game. It's like, couldn't you throw him
(05:14):
on there? You know, the Cavs are second to the Celtics,
and they're behind by quite a few games, but they
were missing two of their best players. I mean, Donovan
Mitchell was carrying guys like Max Strus, Isaac korro Dean Wade,
who they're not bad players, they're not exactly Drew Holliday,
Jalen Brown, and Derek White. So I think that those
are the kinds of things working against Tatum right now.
(05:34):
I think there's no shame finishing in that five to
six range, but I do think there's there's a little
bit of a drop off when you look at guys
like Jokic, Shay, even Giannis to an extent, Luca obviously,
I think what they've done with less loaded rosters with
just as good counting stats.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, I mean I get the argument for Mitchell as well.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
They got white hot when you know their top guys
were out. Evan Mobley was out, Darius Garland was out.
You know, Mitchell put that team on his back. You
look at how they came out of the All Star Break,
the two games Mitchell missed, they couldn't score. You know,
that just reinforced the value of Donovan Mitchell. You know,
I think Tatum falls into that exception category that we
(06:17):
talk about a lot, where if you are on the
team that is by far and away the most dominant team.
Look the Celtics right now, five games up in the
lost calm on anybody else in the NBA in either conferences.
They have a point differential plus ten and a half.
That's like three points better than everybody else in the NBA.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So they are winning and they.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Are blowing teams out, and Tatum is a big reason why.
I mean I mentioned the scoring is probably three four
points off of the other guys in that mix. But
his field goal percentage is up from last year. His
three point percentage is up from last year. His assist
numbers are up from last year. His efficiency in the
post is up from every year of his career. Is
(06:57):
a much more a much better efficient offensive player in
the post, and that's something that he and his trainer,
Drew Hanlin, have worked on a lot, you know, over
the last couple of years. And his overall plus minus
is outstanding, as it is for every member of the
Celtics team because they're really good.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So I think, look, I'm with you that.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You know, if I had to vote today, would I
probably keep my vote for Jokic, Probably, But if the
Celtics finished the season like eight or nine games better
than anybody else, I think you have to look at
Tatum a little bit differently. And if Tatum is putting
up the exact same numbers at the end of the season,
they get a look at him and say, well, I mean,
(07:40):
where would this I understand, this team's got a lot
of firepower and the Drew Holiday trades worked out great
defensively for them, but where would they be without him? Like,
you know, he is the unquestioned star of that team.
He makes plays for them, where would they be without him?
So I think he's he's going to deserve a longer
look at the end of the season. If the Celtics
(08:01):
wind up lapping the field, that would kind of be
my take. I'm a voter and I vote in the
straw pole as well, and I voted to Kole Jokic
at the top this year. But you know, really, you know,
as I start thinking about where my vote might go next,
it's like, you know, if if Oklahoma City surpasses Minnesota
(08:23):
in the standings, how do you not vote.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
For Shay for MVP. I mean, Shay's numbers are ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I was talking to someone in Oklahoma City last night
who was, you know, obviously biased, but steering me to
you know, some of the stats on Shay where he's
put up the kind of numbers that we haven't seen
since Michael Jordan in his prime back in like eighty
nine to ninety two and Steph Curry during his unanimous
MVP year in twenty fifteen sixteen. So he has been
(08:50):
ridiculous overall. I don't think I would put Giannis on
the list because it have been so uneven for the
Bucks this year.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
They finish really strong. He gained subtraction.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I think Kawhi frankly deserves a lot more credit than
he's getting because of how great he's been. But I
think for me, this, I'll kind of put a button
out of it. This, I'll give you the last word
on it for me. If the Celtics are like eight
to ten games better in the lost column, which is
possible right now, they're five better in the lost column.
If they're eight to ten games better in the lost
(09:22):
calm than anybody else, I'm gonna give a long look
for Jason Tatum for MVP. If the numbers are the
same twenty six ish points per game, it's he like
six ish assists, five six assists per game, good shooting numbers.
If that's the case, I will be giving Tatum a
long look for MVP.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
He listen, I think he's, like you said, If they win,
you know, sixty five games or something like that and
no other team has fifty eight to fifty nine, I
think he's gonna have a great case. I'm glad he
brought up Shay by the way. You know, they did
a side by side the other night on the Thunder
broadcast between his currencies in Jordan's eighty eight season.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
He's also, Yeah, that the numbers I'm being steered towards.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I think it's funny. You know, He's had like over
forty games of thirty points. He scored thirty one points
in the All Star Game, then came back his first
real game scored no. Thirty one. My last word on
Tatum is like, you know, when I listen to like
clam chowder Radio or whatever it is, you guys call
it up there. You know, they're always telling me Derek
White's an All Star, Chris STAPs Porzingis is an All Star,
Jalen Brown is an All Star? Was Drew Holliday the
(10:25):
greatest trade ever made?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
U League?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And so it's like, how like, if you have all that,
if you're playing with three other All Stars and a
championship level point guard, and your team has what would
be the best net rating in the NBA when you're
not on the floor, can you be most valuable? That
would be my argument against Tatum.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
All right, then what then by that argument?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I don't think you would have voted for Steph back
in fifteen sixteen, right, Like how many wins they have
that year?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Was that that wasn't a seventy two years.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Oh, let's not. It was a seventy two one year
and let's not compare. Let's not compare anyone to twenty sixteen. Step,
let's just not do that.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I'm not I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I'm just saying that's you know, the players around you.
Generally m vps are from really good teams.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
They have good players around Yeah, that's my only point
on that. Look, it's it's gonna be really close. It
really is. And for sure, I don't think there's gonna
be a runaway winner.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
There's a lot of to your point, there's a lot
of guys who I think deserve whether it's Mitchell Kawhi,
like the Knicks of taking a little bit of stumble heerees,
guys have been hurt like Jalen Brunson. I think with
someone who's gonna maybe finish five on a lot of
ballots this here, there's a lot of guys who deserve
to we talked about in the race.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's gonna be the closest voting
that we've had in a while, which means there's gonna
be a lot of lobbying coming from team officials, a
lot of phone calls, text messages, emails with stats. I'm
here for all of it, ready and ready and ready
for all of it. I want to talk a little
bit about what's been going on this week involving Lebron
(11:56):
and Brownie James. If you missed it earlier in the week,
ESPN's Jonathan Gavoni, who is the premiere draftnick out there,
came out with a mock draft that took Bronnie James
off the twenty twenty four draft board and put him
in the second round of the twenty twenty five draft. This,
(12:21):
you know, triggered Lebron to go on social media and
effectively say, let the kid be a kid. Why do
we have to do all this? Why do we put
so much attention on paraphrasing course, but why do we
have to do Why put so much focus on what
Bronnie is doing this year? Let me say a couple
of things on that one. Jonathan Gavoni, not that he
needs me to reinforce him, but he is right on
(12:45):
taking Bronnie James off this year's draft board. I'm out
in La a lot now, and I've gone to a
lot of USC games. I've seen a lot of in
person Bronnie James. I've watched even more televised games of
Bronnie James. Right now, he is not an NBA player,
full stop. He is a very good defensive player with
(13:08):
the potential to be a great defensive player. He is
a solid playmaker with the potential to be better. He's
someone that has offensive potential but really have no idea
what it is because he hasn't kind of unleashed it yet.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
A lot of that's understandable.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
The guy nearly died in July, collapsed on the floor
at usc had a cardiac event, took him four months
just to get back on the floor, was on a
minister restriction for two There's no reason for him to
be playing at the very best that he would be playing.
So what ESPN and Jonathan Gavoni did in taking Brownie
(13:49):
off the.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Board was accurate. It was accurate.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
He is objectively a potential twenty twenty five draft pick,
and I think is someone that can get into the
first round in twenty twenty five. I think with another
year under his belt, there's a first round talent in there.
But I just kind of was puzzled by the reaction
from Lebron because no one has put more pressure on
(14:18):
Bronnie James than Lebron James. Simple, but I would not
be as focused on Bronnie as I've been this year,
writing about him, talking to people about him, doing this
podcast now about him, if Lebron had not tied himself
(14:40):
to Bronnie's future. I mean, it was Lebron that, you know,
sort of said off the cuff. I guess it was
in a locker room setting that Bronnie was better than
a lot of the guys playing in the league right now.
It was Lebron that said he wanted to play with
his son someday. It was Lebron that intimated that wherever
(15:02):
Bronnie went, he would follow. He'll be a free agent
or can be a free agent next summer. He suggested
strongly at one point that he would go and play
wherever Bronnie James was playing. All these things are fine,
by the way, Like I have no problem with them
being said. I think Lebron is a model for a
(15:24):
athlete parent. He is obviously incredibly supportive of all his kids,
and you see a lot of that on social media,
and you can see kind of who these kids are
that that that's been a positive for them. But the
idea that he's somehow shocked that we're talking about Bronnie's
draft status is ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It just is ridiculous. No, we're talking about it because.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Arguably the greatest player of all time could decide where
to play next year depending on where Bronnie is drafted.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
What are we missing here? Like that, to me was just.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
A a whiff by lebron to criticize the Draftnicks and
the people that were out there speculating on Bronnie James's
future because no one because because he you know, fired
the starter pistol on all this. He got this all
going by tying his future to Bronni's.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, I mean it's tough. I feel worst of all
for Bronnie and all this. You know, he's not asked
for any of this. You know, he's not someone who
is kind of out there publicly. He's had like a
normal collegiate player's career outside of this awful thing that
happened to him last summer, uh, you know, and to
(16:42):
him to deal with that then all the intention that
comes from who his dad is. I feel worse for
him because I think he seems to be someone who
is working hard toward being a good basketball player. And
you know, I think Lebron ended up deleting that tweet.
I also like he kind of streisand affected it. Like
I think this would have just blown over had Lebron
(17:02):
not really said anything. Instead, now people are you know,
now we're talking about it, it kind of continues to fuel
the discussion. I understand kind of the over protective nature
he feels the need to act with this, But you know,
it's interesting, like Lebron is no stranger to the media.
I think he see he's gonna have to kind of
relearn it to an extent when it comes to I'm
(17:24):
sure it's a lot different when it's dealing with the
family members supposed to dealing with it yourself. But like,
I feel like my advice would be to him would
be like, listen, man, you're not gonna you can't get
caught up in every mock draft because that's gonna drive
you crazy. That doesn't seem worth your time or attention.
I mean, like he was on the cover of our
magazine talk about how he wanted to play with not
just one but both of his sons, let alone the
(17:46):
comment that he made that you mentioned, So you know,
I understand obviously why this wild draw such an emotional
response from Lebron, but it just feels like it's not
worth his time to wade in the mock draft waters.
And to your point, I agree. I think Bronni has potential,
but you know, I think the idea that he's going
to be a like a draft pick in twenty twenty four,
(18:08):
let alone a first rounder, is incredibly far fetched, and
if he is looking to do what's best for his career,
I mean, I'm not gonna pretend I'm a draft expert here,
but when you look at the recent successive guys who
stayed in college longer, whether it's a Hi May Hawks
with his Christian brown that seems like a path that
might be more worth Brownie's time, even if that maybe
(18:29):
takes playing with his dad off the table. But yeah,
I was just kind of surprised that Lebron is letting
this get to him so much, only because listen, this
is the kind of coverage he's been exposed to for
the last twenty years. Yeah, man, it just seems not
worth his time. But you're definitely right, like this attention
exists largely because of what Lebron is said and done.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, and you know, with Bronnie, if he's just thinking
about himself and what's best for him, the obvious path
is to stay at USC. It's more likely than not
that his backcourt mate Isaiah Collier is going to leave
for the pros. He's considered a lottery pick this year,
(19:13):
which would open up more playing time for Brownie next year.
It can spend the entire summer working on his game,
which he was not able to do this past year
because of the health issue. He can go into a
full training camp healthy, knowing the system, knowing what it
takes to be.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
A college basketball player.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And oh, by the way, still make a shitload of money. Right,
this is not this is not two thousand and three here, Lebron.
You know, Bronnie can make I think his nil valuations
like six million dollars, right, So, and we'll probably go
up next year. So he'll make roughly what he would
(19:52):
make as a rookie in the NBA and still give
himself plenty of time to turn pro after his sophomore
year when he's the tender age of twenty. Yeah, that
to me just makes so much more sense. And for
lebron it's like, again you made the point, like it's
different when you're looking through the lens of your son.
But you know, people with draft boards are going to
(20:14):
be speculating the future of eighteen year olds forever because
this is now a huge business. Guys are coming out,
you know, right out of that first year of college,
eventually probably right out of high school. Again, it's just
never gonna stop. It's never gonna stop. So this is
kind of where it is with Lebron and Bronni. But
I think for him, for Ronnie, would be the best
(20:35):
case scenario was staying in school for one more year.
I would I would think that's a smarter move. Let's
talk about Milwaukee for a minute here, the Bucks. I
caught some of the game against Charlotte on Tuesday night.
I only turned it on Roan because I saw that
the Hornets scored twenty six points in the first half.
(20:58):
I don't know how it's possible in twenty twenty four
for an NBA team to scored twenty six points.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
In a half.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You really have to try to score twenty six points
in a half.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
But sure enough, the great the Grant Williams effect seems
to be wearing off after the hot start.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, your Charlotte Hornets are just had an abysmal first half.
A lot of that is definitely them just missing shots,
but some of that's the Bucks defense, which is vastly
improved over the last few weeks. You know, in the
first ten games that Doc Rivers coached, they were three
and seven, but they had a defensive rating I think
inside the top twelve. You know, over the last what
(21:35):
is it three games since the All Star break, they
have a defensive rating inside the top ten. Think it
might even be close to top five right now, especially
after that debacle.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know, for the.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Hornets, things are starting to click a little bit. In Milwaukee,
they get a win against Minnesota, They then club Charlotte.
Do you look at do you think the Bucks are
turning a corner here? And is there enough time left
in the season for them to re establish themselves as
(22:06):
championship contenders.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I definitely think they're starting to turn a corner. I mean,
you know, their stats are going to be juiced a
little bit by playing a team like Charlotte and dominating
them to the extent that they did. We look a
lot of their defensive metrics since Doc took over, really
cleaning up a lot of the issues they had on
their Adrian Griffin, whether it was transition, defense, points at
the rim, overall defensive rating, they've looked a lot better
(22:31):
that That was what I wrote about the day Doc
took over. This is gonna be his biggest His biggest
issue is number one priority has got to be to
fix the defense, and I think they've made significant strides
on that end of the floor. That win against Minnesota
probably their best win of the season. Really impressive effort
in that game, and they've done a lot of this
with Chris Middleton hurt again, and I think Middleton is
(22:52):
someone who's a really important defender for them, and it's
going to be an important player for them in the playoffs,
someone who they just not able to get healthy for years.
Now he's out again and they've still been playing pretty well.
I think Jay Crowder coming back has helped, even if
he's not necessarily Phoenix Finals run. Jay Crowder, he's been
playing pretty well, So getting healthy at the right time,
(23:13):
having Dot there and I definitely think there's enough time
for them to kind of turn the corner here. Remember
when we've talked about them at no point if we said, listen,
Milwaukee needs a top five defense, can we get to
top fifteen? The Nuggets were fifteenth in defense last year,
and they made it work in the playoffs, able to
win a title, really turned it on when it mattered most.
(23:34):
We know that they have players with defensive talent, whether
it's Crowder, whether it's Giannis, whether it's Brook Lopez, guys
who can be really effective and have shown the ability
to be effective in high stakes moments, So we know
it's there. So I definitely think these are encouraging signs.
I still, you know, it's funny because as good as
the defense has been down, as much as we've seen
(23:55):
the improvement, I do have my eye on Middleton in
terms of my super big pictures zoomed out take on
this team because I think it's going to be difficult
for them to make a deep run without him looking
at least somewhat like that twenty twenty one version of himself.
I think they're right to be cautious with him, So
you know, I'm definitely trending in a much more positive
direction with the Bucks. And as much as Doc has
(24:16):
been memed and the jokes have been funny. I do
think he's been making an impact.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, he's been making an impact. Some of the numbers here,
let me read them off to you. The Bucks avaled
opponents under one hundred points in four of their last
six games and are now giving up just one hundred
nine point two points per game, which is the seventh
best mark in the league since Doc Rivers took over.
Before that, Milwaukee had allowed fewer than one hundred points
this one time. Prior to Rivers taking over and giving
(24:44):
up one hundred and twenty point one points per game,
that was twenty fourth into in the NBA. The Bucks
defensive rating in the thirteen games under Doc has also
tied for sixth best mark in the league, after ranking
nineteenth before that. So the numbers tell the story, right,
not the whole story. But that's not an insignificant sample size,
(25:04):
Like thirteen games is a pretty sizable chunk of games
to suggest that there is something happening now in Milwaukee.
And I talked a little bit about this last week,
but I did spend about a week in Milwaukee around
the Bucks, talk to Doc Rivers at length, talk to
Damian Lillard at length.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
That story's up on SI dot Com right now.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And you know, look, one of things that Doc told
me was we got to simplify what we're doing. He said,
he walked into a situation where they were trying like
six seven, eight different things to be successful defensively. That's
great in theory, you know, on a chalkboard, but it
doesn't really work in the game when you've got to
(25:44):
know exactly what you're doing and where you're going in
order to be effective. It made the example of you know,
Miami and Denver like not a lot of frills to
what they do. They just do it really well. They
execute exceptionally well. And Doc was like, that's how we
need to be. We need to take out all the
gimmicky stuff, just be one type of defensive.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Team and be really good.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And he also pushed back hard on this idea that
you know, losing Drew Holliday was some kind of death
blow to this team defensively. Drew obviously a great defender,
but they still let everybody else from that elite defensive
team last year. So you know, look, to your point,
Doc has been lampooned a lot over the last couple
of weeks. Some of it deserved, you know, There's no
(26:25):
doubt about that. And I've found, you know, with this
I told he told the Jedi that, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Like that so many.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
There was so many really good ones that just that
we were a good day on social media for people
that like those kind of jokes.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
But I think he's the right guy for the job.
I do.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I think even though he has fumbled stumbled in the
postseason in recent years, he's got away with players in
the locker room. He knows what it takes to win
at a high level, at least in the regular season,
and he has won championship, you know, with a team
that was put together in one year. I mean, remember
the Celtics won championship in the first year that they
(27:06):
were kind of assembled there. You know, Kevin Garnett was acquired,
Ray Allen was acquired, Roger and Rondo was in his
second year. So he's proven he can do he can
do that. So I agree with you. They're not gonna
be sixth best defensive with the rest of the season,
you know. And I still want to see what they
look like when they go up against Boston, you know,
towards the end of this month.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
But they absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I think have a chance to get to that level
because their offensive firepower is unquestioned. You know, Lillard, you know,
admitted they've they've obviously had some struggles finding chemistry with
each other, the relationship with Giannis work in progress. But
they're gonna go into virtually every series with the best
player of the floor and Gio. Honest, they're gonna go
into virtually every series with the guy maybe that you're
(27:54):
gonna want in the fourth quarter of games with the
ball in his hands, and that's Damian Lillard. When you
have that, you got chance against anybody in at least
the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Without a doubt. And by the way, I don't hold
Doc Rivers responsible for that most recent three two leads
We've discussed at length on this podcast, with the epic
choke job that the parted in him bead threw up
in those last two games. And now he has guys
who have historically come through in the clutch in big
(28:24):
playoff moments in Dame and Janna, So I definitely think
they're trending in the right direction. And I also I'll
just say about Adrian Griffin, who was not expecting that
Dame trait to happen and was thinking he was going
to build his defense around a different roster. He was
also in a tough position, so not trying to throw
him under the bus. But I do think Doc is
doing what they hired him to do, which is get
the most out of this roster real quick. I just
(28:46):
wanted to ask you about that Dame Q and A,
because it's causing quite the stir of some of the
quotes he had. You know, obviously he's going through some
personal stuff in his life, which I think has affected
his transition to Milwaukee. I'm just curious. You know, you
mentioned you talked to a length. It was a really
revealing Q and A. What did you just kind of
make of where he's at with this Bucks experience so far?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I'd look, I think Dame is fine in Milwaukee. I
think some of the quotes that were pulled and went
viral on social media or taken a little out of context.
I mean, the guy when he's talking about how he,
you know, doesn't have much of a life, that's not
because he's in Milwaukee as opposed to Miami. I saw
(29:29):
a lot of that on social media. Trust me, Damian
Lillard would not be on South Beach in Miami.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
That's just not who he is.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
What he was saying was, this was the first time
in my life, in my career that I have basically
been alone. You know, his kids are back in the
Portland area. The entire support system that he built in
Portland is still there. His family is in Oakland. He
(29:56):
was saying to me, like, you know, when I and
there's a lot more from Dame in the magazine coming
out in a couple of weeks, but he was saying
to me that, you know, when I went to college,
the flight from Weber State in Ogden, Utah, back to
Oakland was less than two hours. Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It was even less going from Oakland to Portland.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And when he went to Portland, he had two of
his closest friends that were going to school at Lewis
and Clark University. So he like, he's always had a
support system wherever he's gone. Not the case in Milwaukee.
He moved out there with one of his cousins and
they just hang out. And again, it has nothing to
do with Milwaukee, zero to do with the city of Milwaukee.
(30:37):
It's just he's if he had gone to Miami, it
probably would have been the exact same thing. He just
has a place out there, hangs out and he's hed.
He watches boxing and.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
So also that was my follow up question, which is
what is fight Hype? Do you are you also youtubing
fight Hype?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
He had just one of the it's a boxing YouTube
site that has a lot of interviews with people in
all those sites where you boxing journalism in twenty twenty
four is really a lot of people with camera phones
sticking them in front of athletes' faces, got influential piece
of visit and they all wind up on fight Hype
and Dame watches a lot of a box and stuff.
But big picture, look, he's he's happy out there. He's happy,
(31:17):
you know, playing with Giannis. You know, he's not going
to lie and say like everything's great. We're like the
perfect couple. It's from day one, it's it's been awesome.
Like relationships take time, they take time, and you know,
Dame's eager for this one to continue to develop and
to flourish. He also believes Doc rivers, you know, being
there is the right thing, Like you know, Dacas has
(31:40):
brought something different than this team unquestionably needed there, so
he believes they're on the right track. The other quote
that was taken out, was like, you know, I thought
we're gonna be like Boston. Now, the question was, what
did you think after the first preseason game, because I
was there with him in LA when they beat up
on the Lakers, and that was the debut with Giannis
(32:00):
and Dame. They both combined for thirty and limited minutes,
and he said, look, I thought we're gonna hit the
ground running.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
That would be great. You know, things happen.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
You know, Terry stots exit obviously had a big impact
on him. So I look, the bottom line is he's
fine out there, and I'm never gonna bet against.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Damian Lillard being successful.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I mean, the guy, even though he's never won a championship,
has won a lot in his time in the NBA,
won a lot of games with the Portland Trailblazers, got
to a Conference finals with the Portland Trail Blazers, really
accomplished as much as you possibly could given the talent
that was around him for all those years. And I'm
never gonna get better against him. I think he and
Giannis are going to continue to get better. I think
the defense will, you know, continue to improve from what
(32:40):
it was in the first half of the season.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I think they're gonna be dangerous in the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
To your point, a lot of us can depend on
Chris Middleton. They need that third star out there on
the floor. I can't just be Malik Beasley as that
third guard. Pat Connadan can't be that extra star. It's
got to be Chris Middleton. So when they go up
against the Celtics or any of the teams the top
half of the conference, they're gonna need, you know, that
guy out there on the floor.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So, yeah, that was good stuff I had with Damon.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And again there's a lot more that I say for
the magazine that's coming out in just a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
All Right, we will be back Rohan this time next week.
For now, everybody, enjoy the games.
Is the Crossover Sports Illustrators MBAB show, bringing them the
latest news, rumors and everything. Here's your hosts. This is
the Crossover NBA Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Chris Mannix, joined as always by Rown, Not Garnee
and Rohan. We are going to lean into one of
your favorite topics today and that.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Is the MVP race.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
You are the author of the MVP Ladder over at
SI dot com. We're gonna talk about that, specifically the
case of Jason Tatum, who has become kind of the
topic of the week with his candidacy. His numbers not
you know what other m VP candidates are, but his
team is winning in ways that other MVP candidates are not.
(00:55):
So we're gonna talk about that. We're also going to
get into the Lebron Browny James stuff that's out there
right now. Lebron not happy with the mock drafters, specifically
one thing Jonathan Gavoni kind of kicked this thing off
with his latest mock draft that removed Bronnie James from
(01:15):
the twenty twenty four draft class. And we're gonna talk
a little bit about the Milwaukee Bucks, who are starting
to turn a corner a little bit here, maybe showing
some signs of life in Milwaukee. So let us begin, though,
ron with the MVP race, which is pretty wide open
(01:35):
at the moment. The latest ESPN straw pole taken back
in early February, had Nicole Jokic as a clear leader.
No reason to think he isn't right now. Joel Embiid
was in that mix, but Joel Embiid is now out
of it, given he will not beat the sixty five
game threshold for award winners in the NBA. Shake Gilvis
(01:58):
Alexander fantastic year, Gianniston Decombo fantastic year. Same with Luka Doncic,
same with Kawhi Leonard. The name that has come up
most recently, it's come up partly because he's put it
into the water supply is Jason Tatum, whoever All Star
Weekend said he was the best player in the NBA,
(02:19):
made some comments in the aftermath of that talking about
how he should be considered.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Even though his numbers aren't what other.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
MVP candidates are, because he's on a team that's winning
at the highest level, best record in the NBA, leading
the Eastern Conference by a country mile, and look, he's
had some support. It's Draymond Green out there backing up
Jason Tatum's candidacy. Other players and coaches, ex players and
coaches as well have weighed in on this, So let
(02:49):
me start there with you, how serious is Jason Tatum's
candidacy right now? And should it be more serious given
where Boston is in the standings.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
You know, I think he's got a serious case to
be considered on the ballot, and I think that there's
we should celebrate players who make the ballot. I think
it's an accomplishment to get MVP votes. I think he's
I've had him kind of in that five six range
the last few weeks, especially as Embiid has dropped out.
And listen, there's no doubt the Celtics have been I'd
(03:22):
say the most consistent team in the league by far,
the best team in the East, certainly number one in
net rating for practically the entire season, and Tatum's having
a great year, great individual numbers, and so much of
their offense is based on if Tatum gets a mismatch
and gets someone in the post, basically your defense's toast.
I mean, you're screwed. You got nothing to do. At
(03:45):
the same time, you know, if this was like ten
fifteen years ago. I think Tatum is maybe even running
away with this award because of how often it just
went to the best player on the best team. But
he has a few things working against him. First, you
mentioned the numbers. While they are very very good. I mean,
Giannis is averaging what thirty and eleven. I mean, Luca's
up to nearly thirty five points a game. You know,
(04:08):
Jokic is average, averaging close to a triple double every night.
You know, numbers wise, he's very good, but he's not
necessarily at that level. You know, Shika just killed as
Alexander over thirty points a game. I believe he's at
thirty one right now. And then on the other hand,
you have the fact that Tatum plays for a fantastic team,
and then that's working against him. Here the Celtics, they
(04:30):
have per cleaning the glass. They have an eleven point
four net rating with Tatum on the floor, but with
him off the floor, they have an eight point zero
net rating that still would be one of the best
marks in the league. So the fact that the team
can play that well without him. You think about those
two years Jokic won MVP, he had historical splits in
terms of his on off court differential. I'm not saying
(04:51):
that's the end all be all for most valuable player,
but when you're judging value, that's an important metric, and
that that's something that hurts Tatum. You know, it's funny
Becau I wrote about this today, Chris. You mentioned Tatum
and his numbers. You look at a guy like Donovan
Mitchell scoring a little bit better than Tatum, field gold
percentage right in the same range, not as many rebounds,
more assists for game. It's like, couldn't you throw him
(05:14):
on there? You know, the Cavs are second to the Celtics,
and they're behind by quite a few games, but they
were missing two of their best players. I mean, Donovan
Mitchell was carrying guys like Max Strus, Isaac korro Dean Wade,
who they're not bad players, they're not exactly Drew Holliday,
Jalen Brown, and Derek White. So I think that those
are the kinds of things working against Tatum right now.
(05:34):
I think there's no shame finishing in that five to
six range, but I do think there's there's a little
bit of a drop off when you look at guys
like Jokic, Shay, even Giannis to an extent, Luca obviously,
I think what they've done with less loaded rosters with
just as good counting stats.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, I mean I get the argument for Mitchell as well.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
They got white hot when you know their top guys
were out. Evan Mobley was out, Darius Garland was out.
You know, Mitchell put that team on his back. You
look at how they came out of the All Star Break,
the two games Mitchell missed, they couldn't score. You know,
that just reinforced the value of Donovan Mitchell. You know,
I think Tatum falls into that exception category that we
(06:17):
talk about a lot, where if you are on the
team that is by far and away the most dominant team.
Look the Celtics right now, five games up in the
lost calm on anybody else in the NBA in either conferences.
They have a point differential plus ten and a half.
That's like three points better than everybody else in the NBA.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So they are winning and they.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Are blowing teams out, and Tatum is a big reason why.
I mean I mentioned the scoring is probably three four
points off of the other guys in that mix. But
his field goal percentage is up from last year. His
three point percentage is up from last year. His assist
numbers are up from last year. His efficiency in the
post is up from every year of his career. Is
(06:57):
a much more a much better efficient offensive player in
the post, and that's something that he and his trainer,
Drew Hanlin, have worked on a lot, you know, over
the last couple of years. And his overall plus minus
is outstanding, as it is for every member of the
Celtics team because they're really good.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So I think, look, I'm with you that.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You know, if I had to vote today, would I
probably keep my vote for Jokic, Probably, But if the
Celtics finished the season like eight or nine games better
than anybody else, I think you have to look at
Tatum a little bit differently. And if Tatum is putting
up the exact same numbers at the end of the season,
they get a look at him and say, well, I mean,
(07:40):
where would this I understand, this team's got a lot
of firepower and the Drew Holiday trades worked out great
defensively for them, but where would they be without him? Like,
you know, he is the unquestioned star of that team.
He makes plays for them, where would they be without him?
So I think he's he's going to deserve a longer
look at the end of the season. If the Celtics
(08:01):
wind up lapping the field, that would kind of be
my take. I'm a voter and I vote in the
straw pole as well, and I voted to Kole Jokic
at the top this year. But you know, really, you know,
as I start thinking about where my vote might go next,
it's like, you know, if if Oklahoma City surpasses Minnesota
(08:23):
in the standings, how do you not vote.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
For Shay for MVP. I mean, Shay's numbers are ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I was talking to someone in Oklahoma City last night
who was, you know, obviously biased, but steering me to
you know, some of the stats on Shay where he's
put up the kind of numbers that we haven't seen
since Michael Jordan in his prime back in like eighty
nine to ninety two and Steph Curry during his unanimous
MVP year in twenty fifteen sixteen. So he has been
(08:50):
ridiculous overall. I don't think I would put Giannis on
the list because it have been so uneven for the
Bucks this year.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
They finish really strong. He gained subtraction.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I think Kawhi frankly deserves a lot more credit than
he's getting because of how great he's been. But I
think for me, this, I'll kind of put a button
out of it. This, I'll give you the last word
on it for me. If the Celtics are like eight
to ten games better in the lost column, which is
possible right now, they're five better in the lost column.
If they're eight to ten games better in the lost
(09:22):
calm than anybody else, I'm gonna give a long look
for Jason Tatum for MVP. If the numbers are the
same twenty six ish points per game, it's he like
six ish assists, five six assists per game, good shooting numbers.
If that's the case, I will be giving Tatum a
long look for MVP.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
He listen, I think he's, like you said, If they win,
you know, sixty five games or something like that and
no other team has fifty eight to fifty nine, I
think he's gonna have a great case. I'm glad he
brought up Shay by the way. You know, they did
a side by side the other night on the Thunder
broadcast between his currencies in Jordan's eighty eight season.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
He's also, Yeah, that the numbers I'm being steered towards.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I think it's funny. You know, He's had like over
forty games of thirty points. He scored thirty one points
in the All Star Game, then came back his first
real game scored no. Thirty one. My last word on
Tatum is like, you know, when I listen to like
clam chowder Radio or whatever it is, you guys call
it up there. You know, they're always telling me Derek
White's an All Star, Chris STAPs Porzingis is an All Star,
Jalen Brown is an All Star? Was Drew Holliday the
(10:25):
greatest trade ever made?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
U League?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And so it's like, how like, if you have all that,
if you're playing with three other All Stars and a
championship level point guard, and your team has what would
be the best net rating in the NBA when you're
not on the floor, can you be most valuable? That
would be my argument against Tatum.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
All right, then what then by that argument?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I don't think you would have voted for Steph back
in fifteen sixteen, right, Like how many wins they have
that year?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Was that that wasn't a seventy two years.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Oh, let's not. It was a seventy two one year
and let's not compare. Let's not compare anyone to twenty sixteen. Step,
let's just not do that.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I'm not I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I'm just saying that's you know, the players around you.
Generally m vps are from really good teams.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
They have good players around Yeah, that's my only point
on that. Look, it's it's gonna be really close. It
really is. And for sure, I don't think there's gonna
be a runaway winner.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
There's a lot of to your point, there's a lot
of guys who I think deserve whether it's Mitchell Kawhi,
like the Knicks of taking a little bit of stumble heerees,
guys have been hurt like Jalen Brunson. I think with
someone who's gonna maybe finish five on a lot of
ballots this here, there's a lot of guys who deserve
to we talked about in the race.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's gonna be the closest voting
that we've had in a while, which means there's gonna
be a lot of lobbying coming from team officials, a
lot of phone calls, text messages, emails with stats. I'm
here for all of it, ready and ready and ready
for all of it. I want to talk a little
bit about what's been going on this week involving Lebron
(11:56):
and Brownie James. If you missed it earlier in the week,
ESPN's Jonathan Gavoni, who is the premiere draftnick out there,
came out with a mock draft that took Bronnie James
off the twenty twenty four draft board and put him
in the second round of the twenty twenty five draft. This,
(12:21):
you know, triggered Lebron to go on social media and
effectively say, let the kid be a kid. Why do
we have to do all this? Why do we put
so much attention on paraphrasing course, but why do we
have to do Why put so much focus on what
Bronnie is doing this year? Let me say a couple
of things on that one. Jonathan Gavoni, not that he
needs me to reinforce him, but he is right on
(12:45):
taking Bronnie James off this year's draft board. I'm out
in La a lot now, and I've gone to a
lot of USC games. I've seen a lot of in
person Bronnie James. I've watched even more televised games of
Bronnie James. Right now, he is not an NBA player,
full stop. He is a very good defensive player with
(13:08):
the potential to be a great defensive player. He is
a solid playmaker with the potential to be better. He's
someone that has offensive potential but really have no idea
what it is because he hasn't kind of unleashed it yet.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
A lot of that's understandable.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
The guy nearly died in July, collapsed on the floor
at usc had a cardiac event, took him four months
just to get back on the floor, was on a
minister restriction for two There's no reason for him to
be playing at the very best that he would be playing.
So what ESPN and Jonathan Gavoni did in taking Brownie
(13:49):
off the.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Board was accurate. It was accurate.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
He is objectively a potential twenty twenty five draft pick,
and I think is someone that can get into the
first round in twenty twenty five. I think with another
year under his belt, there's a first round talent in there.
But I just kind of was puzzled by the reaction
from Lebron because no one has put more pressure on
(14:18):
Bronnie James than Lebron James. Simple, but I would not
be as focused on Bronnie as I've been this year,
writing about him, talking to people about him, doing this
podcast now about him, if Lebron had not tied himself
(14:40):
to Bronnie's future. I mean, it was Lebron that, you know,
sort of said off the cuff. I guess it was
in a locker room setting that Bronnie was better than
a lot of the guys playing in the league right now.
It was Lebron that said he wanted to play with
his son someday. It was Lebron that intimated that wherever
(15:02):
Bronnie went, he would follow. He'll be a free agent
or can be a free agent next summer. He suggested
strongly at one point that he would go and play
wherever Bronnie James was playing. All these things are fine,
by the way, Like I have no problem with them
being said. I think Lebron is a model for a
(15:24):
athlete parent. He is obviously incredibly supportive of all his kids,
and you see a lot of that on social media,
and you can see kind of who these kids are
that that that's been a positive for them. But the
idea that he's somehow shocked that we're talking about Bronnie's
draft status is ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It just is ridiculous. No, we're talking about it because.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Arguably the greatest player of all time could decide where
to play next year depending on where Bronnie is drafted.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
What are we missing here? Like that, to me was just.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
A a whiff by lebron to criticize the Draftnicks and
the people that were out there speculating on Bronnie James's
future because no one because because he you know, fired
the starter pistol on all this. He got this all
going by tying his future to Bronni's.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, I mean it's tough. I feel worst of all
for Bronnie and all this. You know, he's not asked
for any of this. You know, he's not someone who
is kind of out there publicly. He's had like a
normal collegiate player's career outside of this awful thing that
happened to him last summer, uh, you know, and to
(16:42):
him to deal with that then all the intention that
comes from who his dad is. I feel worse for
him because I think he seems to be someone who
is working hard toward being a good basketball player. And
you know, I think Lebron ended up deleting that tweet.
I also like he kind of streisand affected it. Like
I think this would have just blown over had Lebron
(17:02):
not really said anything. Instead, now people are you know,
now we're talking about it, it kind of continues to fuel
the discussion. I understand kind of the over protective nature
he feels the need to act with this, But you know,
it's interesting, like Lebron is no stranger to the media.
I think he see he's gonna have to kind of
relearn it to an extent when it comes to I'm
(17:24):
sure it's a lot different when it's dealing with the
family members supposed to dealing with it yourself. But like,
I feel like my advice would be to him would
be like, listen, man, you're not gonna you can't get
caught up in every mock draft because that's gonna drive
you crazy. That doesn't seem worth your time or attention.
I mean, like he was on the cover of our
magazine talk about how he wanted to play with not
just one but both of his sons, let alone the
(17:46):
comment that he made that you mentioned, So you know,
I understand obviously why this wild draw such an emotional
response from Lebron, but it just feels like it's not
worth his time to wade in the mock draft waters.
And to your point, I agree. I think Bronni has potential,
but you know, I think the idea that he's going
to be a like a draft pick in twenty twenty four,
(18:08):
let alone a first rounder, is incredibly far fetched, and
if he is looking to do what's best for his career,
I mean, I'm not gonna pretend I'm a draft expert here,
but when you look at the recent successive guys who
stayed in college longer, whether it's a Hi May Hawks
with his Christian brown that seems like a path that
might be more worth Brownie's time, even if that maybe
(18:29):
takes playing with his dad off the table. But yeah,
I was just kind of surprised that Lebron is letting
this get to him so much, only because listen, this
is the kind of coverage he's been exposed to for
the last twenty years. Yeah, man, it just seems not
worth his time. But you're definitely right, like this attention
exists largely because of what Lebron is said and done.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, and you know, with Bronnie, if he's just thinking
about himself and what's best for him, the obvious path
is to stay at USC. It's more likely than not
that his backcourt mate Isaiah Collier is going to leave
for the pros. He's considered a lottery pick this year,
(19:13):
which would open up more playing time for Brownie next year.
It can spend the entire summer working on his game,
which he was not able to do this past year
because of the health issue. He can go into a
full training camp healthy, knowing the system, knowing what it
takes to be.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
A college basketball player.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And oh, by the way, still make a shitload of money. Right,
this is not this is not two thousand and three here, Lebron.
You know, Bronnie can make I think his nil valuations
like six million dollars, right, So, and we'll probably go
up next year. So he'll make roughly what he would
(19:52):
make as a rookie in the NBA and still give
himself plenty of time to turn pro after his sophomore
year when he's the tender age of twenty. Yeah, that
to me just makes so much more sense. And for
lebron it's like, again you made the point, like it's
different when you're looking through the lens of your son.
But you know, people with draft boards are going to
(20:14):
be speculating the future of eighteen year olds forever because
this is now a huge business. Guys are coming out,
you know, right out of that first year of college,
eventually probably right out of high school. Again, it's just
never gonna stop. It's never gonna stop. So this is
kind of where it is with Lebron and Bronni. But
I think for him, for Ronnie, would be the best
(20:35):
case scenario was staying in school for one more year.
I would I would think that's a smarter move. Let's
talk about Milwaukee for a minute here, the Bucks. I
caught some of the game against Charlotte on Tuesday night.
I only turned it on Roan because I saw that
the Hornets scored twenty six points in the first half.
(20:58):
I don't know how it's possible in twenty twenty four
for an NBA team to scored twenty six points.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
In a half.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You really have to try to score twenty six points
in a half.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
But sure enough, the great the Grant Williams effect seems
to be wearing off after the hot start.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, your Charlotte Hornets are just had an abysmal first half.
A lot of that is definitely them just missing shots,
but some of that's the Bucks defense, which is vastly
improved over the last few weeks. You know, in the
first ten games that Doc Rivers coached, they were three
and seven, but they had a defensive rating I think
inside the top twelve. You know, over the last what
(21:35):
is it three games since the All Star break, they
have a defensive rating inside the top ten. Think it
might even be close to top five right now, especially
after that debacle.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know, for the.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Hornets, things are starting to click a little bit. In Milwaukee,
they get a win against Minnesota, They then club Charlotte.
Do you look at do you think the Bucks are
turning a corner here? And is there enough time left
in the season for them to re establish themselves as
(22:06):
championship contenders.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I definitely think they're starting to turn a corner. I mean,
you know, their stats are going to be juiced a
little bit by playing a team like Charlotte and dominating
them to the extent that they did. We look a
lot of their defensive metrics since Doc took over, really
cleaning up a lot of the issues they had on
their Adrian Griffin, whether it was transition, defense, points at
the rim, overall defensive rating, they've looked a lot better
(22:31):
that That was what I wrote about the day Doc
took over. This is gonna be his biggest His biggest
issue is number one priority has got to be to
fix the defense, and I think they've made significant strides
on that end of the floor. That win against Minnesota
probably their best win of the season. Really impressive effort
in that game, and they've done a lot of this
with Chris Middleton hurt again, and I think Middleton is
(22:52):
someone who's a really important defender for them, and it's
going to be an important player for them in the playoffs,
someone who they just not able to get healthy for years.
Now he's out again and they've still been playing pretty well.
I think Jay Crowder coming back has helped, even if
he's not necessarily Phoenix Finals run. Jay Crowder, he's been
playing pretty well, So getting healthy at the right time,
(23:13):
having Dot there and I definitely think there's enough time
for them to kind of turn the corner here. Remember
when we've talked about them at no point if we said, listen,
Milwaukee needs a top five defense, can we get to
top fifteen? The Nuggets were fifteenth in defense last year,
and they made it work in the playoffs, able to
win a title, really turned it on when it mattered most.
(23:34):
We know that they have players with defensive talent, whether
it's Crowder, whether it's Giannis, whether it's Brook Lopez, guys
who can be really effective and have shown the ability
to be effective in high stakes moments, So we know
it's there. So I definitely think these are encouraging signs.
I still, you know, it's funny because as good as
the defense has been down, as much as we've seen
(23:55):
the improvement, I do have my eye on Middleton in
terms of my super big pictures zoomed out take on
this team because I think it's going to be difficult
for them to make a deep run without him looking
at least somewhat like that twenty twenty one version of himself.
I think they're right to be cautious with him, So
you know, I'm definitely trending in a much more positive
direction with the Bucks. And as much as Doc has
(24:16):
been memed and the jokes have been funny. I do
think he's been making an impact.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, he's been making an impact. Some of the numbers here,
let me read them off to you. The Bucks avaled
opponents under one hundred points in four of their last
six games and are now giving up just one hundred
nine point two points per game, which is the seventh
best mark in the league since Doc Rivers took over.
Before that, Milwaukee had allowed fewer than one hundred points
this one time. Prior to Rivers taking over and giving
(24:44):
up one hundred and twenty point one points per game,
that was twenty fourth into in the NBA. The Bucks
defensive rating in the thirteen games under Doc has also
tied for sixth best mark in the league, after ranking
nineteenth before that. So the numbers tell the story, right,
not the whole story. But that's not an insignificant sample size,
(25:04):
Like thirteen games is a pretty sizable chunk of games
to suggest that there is something happening now in Milwaukee.
And I talked a little bit about this last week,
but I did spend about a week in Milwaukee around
the Bucks, talk to Doc Rivers at length, talk to
Damian Lillard at length.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
That story's up on SI dot Com right now.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And you know, look, one of things that Doc told
me was we got to simplify what we're doing. He said,
he walked into a situation where they were trying like
six seven, eight different things to be successful defensively. That's
great in theory, you know, on a chalkboard, but it
doesn't really work in the game when you've got to
(25:44):
know exactly what you're doing and where you're going in
order to be effective. It made the example of you know,
Miami and Denver like not a lot of frills to
what they do. They just do it really well. They
execute exceptionally well. And Doc was like, that's how we
need to be. We need to take out all the
gimmicky stuff, just be one type of defensive.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Team and be really good.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And he also pushed back hard on this idea that
you know, losing Drew Holliday was some kind of death
blow to this team defensively. Drew obviously a great defender,
but they still let everybody else from that elite defensive
team last year. So you know, look, to your point,
Doc has been lampooned a lot over the last couple
of weeks. Some of it deserved, you know, There's no
(26:25):
doubt about that. And I've found, you know, with this
I told he told the Jedi that, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Like that so many.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
There was so many really good ones that just that
we were a good day on social media for people
that like those kind of jokes.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
But I think he's the right guy for the job.
I do.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I think even though he has fumbled stumbled in the
postseason in recent years, he's got away with players in
the locker room. He knows what it takes to win
at a high level, at least in the regular season,
and he has won championship, you know, with a team
that was put together in one year. I mean, remember
the Celtics won championship in the first year that they
(27:06):
were kind of assembled there. You know, Kevin Garnett was acquired,
Ray Allen was acquired, Roger and Rondo was in his
second year. So he's proven he can do he can
do that. So I agree with you. They're not gonna
be sixth best defensive with the rest of the season,
you know. And I still want to see what they
look like when they go up against Boston, you know,
towards the end of this month.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
But they absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I think have a chance to get to that level
because their offensive firepower is unquestioned. You know, Lillard, you know,
admitted they've they've obviously had some struggles finding chemistry with
each other, the relationship with Giannis work in progress. But
they're gonna go into virtually every series with the best
player of the floor and Gio. Honest, they're gonna go
into virtually every series with the guy maybe that you're
(27:54):
gonna want in the fourth quarter of games with the
ball in his hands, and that's Damian Lillard. When you
have that, you got chance against anybody in at least
the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Without a doubt. And by the way, I don't hold
Doc Rivers responsible for that most recent three two leads
We've discussed at length on this podcast, with the epic
choke job that the parted in him bead threw up
in those last two games. And now he has guys
who have historically come through in the clutch in big
(28:24):
playoff moments in Dame and Janna, So I definitely think
they're trending in the right direction. And I also I'll
just say about Adrian Griffin, who was not expecting that
Dame trait to happen and was thinking he was going
to build his defense around a different roster. He was
also in a tough position, so not trying to throw
him under the bus. But I do think Doc is
doing what they hired him to do, which is get
the most out of this roster real quick. I just
(28:46):
wanted to ask you about that Dame Q and A,
because it's causing quite the stir of some of the
quotes he had. You know, obviously he's going through some
personal stuff in his life, which I think has affected
his transition to Milwaukee. I'm just curious. You know, you
mentioned you talked to a length. It was a really
revealing Q and A. What did you just kind of
make of where he's at with this Bucks experience so far?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I'd look, I think Dame is fine in Milwaukee. I
think some of the quotes that were pulled and went
viral on social media or taken a little out of context.
I mean, the guy when he's talking about how he,
you know, doesn't have much of a life, that's not
because he's in Milwaukee as opposed to Miami. I saw
(29:29):
a lot of that on social media. Trust me, Damian
Lillard would not be on South Beach in Miami.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
That's just not who he is.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
What he was saying was, this was the first time
in my life, in my career that I have basically
been alone. You know, his kids are back in the
Portland area. The entire support system that he built in
Portland is still there. His family is in Oakland. He
(29:56):
was saying to me, like, you know, when I and
there's a lot more from Dame in the magazine coming
out in a couple of weeks, but he was saying
to me that, you know, when I went to college,
the flight from Weber State in Ogden, Utah, back to
Oakland was less than two hours. Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It was even less going from Oakland to Portland.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And when he went to Portland, he had two of
his closest friends that were going to school at Lewis
and Clark University. So he like, he's always had a
support system wherever he's gone. Not the case in Milwaukee.
He moved out there with one of his cousins and
they just hang out. And again, it has nothing to
do with Milwaukee, zero to do with the city of Milwaukee.
(30:37):
It's just he's if he had gone to Miami, it
probably would have been the exact same thing. He just
has a place out there, hangs out and he's hed.
He watches boxing and.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
So also that was my follow up question, which is
what is fight Hype? Do you are you also youtubing
fight Hype?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
He had just one of the it's a boxing YouTube
site that has a lot of interviews with people in
all those sites where you boxing journalism in twenty twenty
four is really a lot of people with camera phones
sticking them in front of athletes' faces, got influential piece
of visit and they all wind up on fight Hype
and Dame watches a lot of a box and stuff.
But big picture, look, he's he's happy out there. He's happy,
(31:17):
you know, playing with Giannis. You know, he's not going
to lie and say like everything's great. We're like the
perfect couple. It's from day one, it's it's been awesome.
Like relationships take time, they take time, and you know,
Dame's eager for this one to continue to develop and
to flourish. He also believes Doc rivers, you know, being
there is the right thing, Like you know, Dacas has
(31:40):
brought something different than this team unquestionably needed there, so
he believes they're on the right track. The other quote
that was taken out, was like, you know, I thought
we're gonna be like Boston. Now, the question was, what
did you think after the first preseason game, because I
was there with him in LA when they beat up
on the Lakers, and that was the debut with Giannis
(32:00):
and Dame. They both combined for thirty and limited minutes,
and he said, look, I thought we're gonna hit the
ground running.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
That would be great. You know, things happen.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
You know, Terry stots exit obviously had a big impact
on him. So I look, the bottom line is he's
fine out there, and I'm never gonna bet against.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Damian Lillard being successful.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I mean, the guy, even though he's never won a championship,
has won a lot in his time in the NBA,
won a lot of games with the Portland Trailblazers, got
to a Conference finals with the Portland Trail Blazers, really
accomplished as much as you possibly could given the talent
that was around him for all those years. And I'm
never gonna get better against him. I think he and
Giannis are going to continue to get better. I think
the defense will, you know, continue to improve from what
(32:40):
it was in the first half of the season.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I think they're gonna be dangerous in the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
To your point, a lot of us can depend on
Chris Middleton. They need that third star out there on
the floor. I can't just be Malik Beasley as that
third guard. Pat Connadan can't be that extra star. It's
got to be Chris Middleton. So when they go up
against the Celtics or any of the teams the top
half of the conference, they're gonna need, you know, that
guy out there on the floor.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So, yeah, that was good stuff I had with Damon.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And again there's a lot more that I say for
the magazine that's coming out in just a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
All Right, we will be back Rohan this time next week.
For now, everybody, enjoy the games.
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