Dr. Anthony Fauci addressed the pause of the J&J vaccine on Meet the Press Sunday and said he does not expect the use of the shot to be cancelled saying it could be back in some form by Friday. Last week we also saw another mass shooting where the shooter was able to obtain his guns legally, despite being on the radar of the FBI and some of those charged with storming the Capitol are claiming they were just there as journalists, not to cause mayhem. Ginger Gibson, deputy Washington digital editor at NBC News, joins us for more.
Next, the conversation about vaccine passports continues as many private businesses and some states move ahead with developing methods to verify that people have been vaccinated or have negative covid tests, at the same time, some states are trying to ban them. Without federal leadership on the issue, people will most likely have to navigate a patchwork approach with many apps to choose from. Ashley Gold, tech and policy reporter at Axios, joins us for what might be next in this discussion.
Finally, ransomware attacks continue to be a problem for the country, costing the U.S. $1.3 billion last year. It has been an especially frustrating problem for schools that have been targeted as they try to navigate closures due to the pandemic. In one case, a school had to cancel online and in-person classes for a week as they tried to get their systems back up. And in another case, they had to turn to all-paper packets with no teacher interaction. Kevin Collier, reporter at NBC News, tells us about ransomware hitting schools.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Monday, April nineteen. Hi'm Oscar Ramiers in Los Angeles
and this is the daily Dive. Dr Anthony Fauci addressed
the pause of the J and J vaccine on meat
the Press Sunday and said he does not expect the
use of the shot to be canceled, saying it could
be back in some form by Friday. Last week, we
(00:21):
also saw another mass shooting where the shooter was able
to obtain his guns legally despite being on the radar
of the FBI, and some of those charged with storm
in the Capitol are claiming that they were just there
as journalists, not to cause mayhem. Jinter Gibson, Deputy Washington
Digital editor at NBC News, joins us for more. Next.
The conversation around vaccine passports continues as many private businesses
(00:45):
and some states move ahead with developing methods to verify
that people have been vaccinated or have negative COVID tests.
At the same time, some states are trying to ban them.
Without federal leadership on the issue, people will most likely
have to navigate a patchwork approach with many apps to
choose from. Ashley Gold, tech and policy reporter at Axios
(01:06):
joins us for what might be next in this discussion. Finally,
ransomware attacks continue to be a problem for the country,
costing the US one point three billion dollars last year.
It has been an especially frustrating problem for schools that
have been targeted as they try to navigate closures due
to the pandemic. Kevin Collier, reporter at NBC News, tells
(01:26):
us about ransomware hitting schools, it's news without the noise.
Let's dive in the pause was to take a look,
make sure we know all the information we can have
within that time frame, and also warned some of the
physicians out there who might see people, particularly women who
(01:47):
have this particular adverse event, that they treat them properly.
Joining us now is Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor
at NBC News. Thanks for joining us, Ginger, hey's for
having me. Let's start off talking about some vaccine news.
The CDC and the FDA last week paused the use
of the J and J vaccine over concerns of blood clots.
(02:07):
There was only six cases and about seven million doses
that were administered, but you know, as they say, out
of an abundance of caution, they wanted to look into
the data see what was going on there. Dr Anthony
Faucci was on Meet the Press on Sunday and said
that he doesn't think they'll be canceling the vaccine completely
and hopes that maybe by Friday we'll have some new
(02:28):
guidance on it. That's right. So we saw this pause.
It was the first real bump in the road for Biden,
who had seemed to you know, enjoyed a stream of
good news, uh positive improving case numbers had started to
reverse in the last few weeks, and then this announcement
that they were pausing the use of the J and
J vaccine. And as as Dr Faucci said on Meet
(02:50):
the Press, you know, they're hoping this is just a
temporary pause and that they'll be able to continue administering
the vaccine within days um. And part of that, Fauci
has said, is to allow doctors to understand what they're
looking for if they're going to find this very rare
side effect. As you said, we're talking about six cases
and seven million. One in a million is very rare,
(03:12):
uh and not the type of of side effect that
would make a medication not be used. I mean, you
think about other medicines on the market have the same
kind of rates of reactions, and so what they want
to do is they want to make doctors aware that
this is a side effect that can happen, and also
make doctors aware of how to treat it. So if
you get a blood clot in your leg, there's a
(03:34):
certain protocol they would follow. This is a different type
of blood clot and it requires a different type of
medication in response. They just want doctors to know what
they're looking for, to be aware before they start readministering
the vaccine. Let's move on to the discussion about gun
control and red flag laws. Last week we saw another
mass shooting. This was at a FedEx facility in Indianapolis.
(03:56):
Brandon Scott Hole. He's nineteen years old. He was a
former employee. He is the one that killed about eight
people and injured a bunch of others. He bought his
guns legally last year and this was after he was
on the radar of the FBI. His mother called police.
They he said that she was worried he wanted to
commit suicide by cop. They seized the shotgun from his home,
(04:18):
but there was nothing, you know, bad going on at
that time. So they didn't charge him with or anything
like that. Uh, Indiana does have red flag laws, but
you know, it seemed like nothing really happened there. He
was still able to get his guns. So how does
that impact the conversation. Now, Yeah, we saw when the
President signed those executive orders a couple of weeks ago
about guns. One of them was trying to come up
(04:39):
with model legislation first states to have red flag laws
that work. And as you said, this kind of thing
if a family member friends says, I don't think the
person that I know is is mentally capable of having
a gun, that their risk to themselves and others, they
can be added to a list and it allows the
law enforcement to say this person shouldn't is a risk,
they shouldn't have a gun. And critics of these laws
(05:01):
say that when you do that, you take away people's
due process, that you don't allow them to have the
sort of the amount of scrutiny, that they can't oppose
these and that you could unfairly take people's guns away
from them. But I think, especially in cases like this,
when we see people trying to get guns taken away
from their family members and then ultimately sadly turning out
to be right that they should have had a firearm.
(05:23):
The fact of supports the idea that they need these
ways to do that, and I think we're gonna see
renewed efforts to the federal government to allow that to happen,
and I think to close the loopholes, because maybe Indiana
would stop if you could across the border into Illinois
and bought a gun, uh and not have been stopped,
you know, hypothetically speaking, they don't want that to happen.
So I think we're going to see more scrutiny on
(05:45):
how we get people who have been identified as risks
from buying guns. Finally, for today, I wanted to just
talk about some funny maneuvering when it comes to the
January six capital assault. There's a lot of people that
have been charged. I think they have over four hundred
federal cases out there now, but there's a rowing number
of people who were saying that, well, we're just journalists
out there, citizen journalists if you want to call them.
(06:06):
They were out there documenting history and they're you know, coming,
They have I guess, YouTube pages and things like that.
Insurgence Insurgence USA Thunderdome TV different things, and they're basically
saying we weren't there to cause mayhem, we were just
there to document it. So how does how has this
blurred the lines between traditional journalism I guess And if
(06:26):
you want to call them, uh, you know, citizen journalists,
activists with the cell phone. I mean, how do you
respond to that? Yeah, you know, askar as someone who
was in the building that day as a journalist working
as a journalist at the time. There's a currently easy
line to find Those of us that were working in
the building had been issued credentials. We were there and
had come from our news organizations to cover it. We
(06:48):
had our credentials with us. People who didn't have their
credentials probably weren't working journalists. I think the courts are
going to sort this out. But just because you can
point your phone at something doesn't mean you're a journalist.
And just because you documented yourself illegally entering the US
capital does not mean you were working as the media.
And that's the whole reason why you got charged. You
documented yourself breaking into the capital, right. I think that
(07:11):
it's a creative legal attempt, but probably not going to
stand up Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor at NBC News,
thank you very much for joining us. Thanks wing me.
Individual states, entities, and businesses are going to decide what's
(07:33):
best for them and the customers and people they serve,
So you may end up with a bunch of different
vaccination passports depending on what you're doing in your life.
Joining us now is Ashley Gold, Tech and policy reporter
at Axios. Thanks for joining us, Ashley, thank you. The
conversation about vaccine passports right now seems to be all
(07:55):
over the place. So we've seen a few states, Texas
and Florida most notably, sign some executive orders banning the
use of vaccine passports for businesses that might get government funding,
things like that, But still there's a lot of private businesses.
Some other states are moving ahead with plans to use
these vaccine passports. And the thing that we've been seeing
(08:18):
is that the Biden administration said, we're not going to
mandate any of this, So what's going to happen next.
We feel like there's gonna be a patchwork of different things,
you know, everybody kind of using a different system, and
it could create kind of a mess. So Ashley tell
us a little bit more about what we're seeing with
the conversation around vaccine passports. Right now, it's very segmented,
and it's very dependent on where you live, whether you
(08:41):
attend the university, whether you're going to school, whether you
work for a state agency. It's going to look completely
different depending on what you're doing, where you live, what
your job is. It's looking like there's going to be
no uniformity across the country for how this is going
to work. Individual states and to these and businesses are
(09:02):
going to decide what's best for them and the customers
and people they served. So you may end up with
a bunch of different vaccination prosports depending on what you're
doing in your life, but it will not be uniform
in any sort of way. You know. One of the
things I think about was early on in the pandemic,
when we're still trying to get things under control, a
lot was being made about contact tracing apps, and that
(09:25):
was going to be the thing that was going to
get us back to normal because we can follow people
that were infected, notify people to be careful, all that.
But again, there's no central contact tracing app. The federal
government didn't step in It was a patchwork of different
ones and it was a mess. None of those ever
took off. When we were reporting out this story, I
was very much reminded of the contact tracing situation. I
(09:48):
remember it was, you know, kind of it. We feel
that the big tech companies like Google and Apple were
on board, but with no incentive for the entire country
to participate in, something like that falls apart pretty quickly.
So a lot of private companies and some tech companies
are trying to figure some of those out. So far
right now, New York has rolled one out for like
sports and entertainment venues. You know, they can use it
(10:09):
if they choose. Hawaii is working on something so you
can bypass that two week quarantine. Those are the only
ones that we've really heard about working on stuff. But
what else are we seeing out there? So we're seeing
from universities require proof of vaccination for students to come
back on campus. We're seeing some individual businesses and services
(10:30):
require proof of vaccination. I've heard anecdotally from folks in Washington,
d C. Where I live. If you want a good
one DC public pool or something like that, they ask
you if you've been vaccinated. So it's like I was
saying before, it is very, very just broken up in
different Another interesting thing that we saw what some customer
(10:53):
phrasing flights like Rover Urban Babysitter and websites that you
can find caretaker. They're letting people put little badges on
their profiles, but they I've been vaccinated, I have credentials.
I can show you that I've been vaccinated. So that
is something like the caretaking industry is doing, which I
thought was interesting. Yeah, and in those cases it makes
(11:14):
sense to you. You sometimes you'll need to let somebody
into your house, things like that, being close quarters with people,
so it makes sense. And you know, on the business side,
it makes sense to businesses don't want to be liable
for outbreaks. They want to get plenty of people back
to use their services, right, So for them, it makes
sense and it makes sense why they would want to
go this way. For Republicans and some of the states,
(11:36):
like I said in Texas and Florida, who have already
tried to ban some of these things, they say it's
an issue of personal freedoms individual freedoms. But some legal
experts have said that the vaccine passports may stand up
to that test. Businesses can require them if they choose to.
I spoke to a legal expert at the University of
Pennsylvania and he basically said, being an unvaccinated individual does
(12:00):
not make you a protected class under the Civil rights
back and businesses can decide who they want to serve
or not serve for any reason, and when there's still
a public health crisis going on, it would be hard
to stand up in court that somebody was discriminating as
defined by the letter of the law, because he seemed
to think that anybody requiring some sort of proof of
(12:22):
vaccination was on pretty solid legal ground. Another thing to
note is that in Texas and Florida, both of these
bands on vaccine Tasks UH mandates were tied specifically two
entities that received state funding. So you're not really telling
a random restaurant what they can do. You're you're saying
what a government agency can do, so it's not as
(12:42):
far reaching as it might seem. Ashley Gold, tech and
policy reporter at Axios, thank you very much for joining us.
Thanks for having me name your face. This unwinnable choice,
you know, do I pay and gamble to maybe get
(13:04):
everything back? We have to scrap everything. I have all
my computer systems thrown in the garbage, buying fresh start
with you know, every database, I have all my files
all over again. It's it's a nightmare. Decisi. Joining us
now is Kevin Collier, reporter at NBC News. Thanks for
joining us, Kevin, Hey, thanks for having me. Ransomware attacks
have become an increasing problem in the country. These cyber
(13:28):
gangs usually target hospitals, city county governments, you know, even businesses,
places where there's not a robust cyber security team kind
of handling their information. Schools are also part of these targets.
And this story, Kevin, that you wrote a deal specifically
with schools, you know, throughout the pandemic. Obviously, we know
(13:49):
kind of the mess that the school system has been
with remote learning, hybrid learning in class, you know, going
back and forth, and then you add in some of
these ransomware attacks and it has become a lot, big
problem for a lot of schools, where I mean, in
some cases they had to cancel classes in person and
remote learning for a whole week just so they can
get back on track. So, Kevin, tell us a little
(14:09):
bit about what we're seeing with these ransomware attacks. Well,
these attacks, the criminals behind them are usually just looking
for targets of opportunity. And it can be you know,
like you said, if me, hospitals, it can be small businesses,
it can be can be anybody. But schools in particular
are just such a ripe target and one where the
damage is so clear and so profound everyday Americans, I
(14:30):
think the kind of rentsware epidemic is largely unacknowledged, just
how bad it is, how frequently it attacks nearly all
walks of life. But what I wanted to do with
this piece was really talked to the parents. I mean,
there have been dozens of attacks on schools, public schools
systems this year alone during the pandemic, and I spoke
(14:50):
with parents and multiple schools who have had to deal with,
you know, the pulling out their hair over raising their kids,
sending to kids to school during a pandemic anyway, and
then just all of a sudden, class are canceled. Now
you've got to find somewhere if you're a kid to
go because some hackers in Russia decided that you would
maybe pay up a little money, right exactly, and you know,
(15:10):
for just kind of how weird. It's been for obviously
growing through the pandemic. Ransomware attacks cost the US more
than one point three billion dollars anyways, so these attacks
are still going on throughout this whole thing. Tell me
a little bit about some of those conversations that you
had with parents and their stories. They were universally ones
of frustration. People are resilient, of course, but it's it's
(15:33):
just kind of like, oh my god. People had varying
degrees of patients with their school systems, and you know,
most school systems, you know, they're not prepared for this.
This catches them unaware and they just have to announce
their parents. Hey, sorry, guys, you got to deal with this.
But yeah, I mean, these parents are it's a really
crappy situation for them to be put in, and which
(15:55):
I think reflects the reality and the immediacy of kind
of cyber attacks on everyday of life. In all these
cases of ransomware, the you know, the FBI usually heads
up these investigations, and there's always this kind of discussion
whether to pay that ransom so you can get your
files and your computer systems back, or not to pay
(16:15):
for it because you know it promotes them, you know,
just doing it more. So that's been one of those things.
I think the FBI kind of basically says you shouldn't
be paying for it. The general guidances don't pay. And yeah,
I think most cyber experts will say that, you know,
all U S. Government agencies say they suggest you don't pay.
In most cases, it's not illegal to paying is not
(16:36):
a guarantee that you'll get things back. It might be
the easiest way to do so, but it's really hard
if you are a school for your hospital, especially hospitals
are really but pretty much anybody you know, your face
with this unwinnable choice. You know, do I pay and
gamble to maybe get everything back? Do I have to
scrap everything? I have all my computer systems thrown in
the garbage, buy and fresh start with you know, every database,
(16:59):
I have, all my files all over again. It's it's
a nightmare decision. Yeah, and even paying is risky too.
You mentioned the article, just over half of the victims
choose to pay, but then seventeen percent of those that
did still don't recover the files because the criminals on
the other side have to follow up and still give
you back the access to that stuff, and you made
mention even you know, in one case in Broward County
(17:21):
in Florida, that they were trying to negotiate something. The
hackers still published transcripts of their conversation on the website,
so just kind of muddies all the water. They were
looking for forty million dollars in ransom to release, you know,
all their school files. We released a redacted version of
the transcript the hackers had with the School of Fishers
(17:41):
and but in the fuller picture of the hackers, and
keep in mind, these again are usually Russians, They're usually
criminals who know the basics of hacking. They may not
be smart. The full conversation they had that the hackers
thought that somehow the school officials were connected with the
royal family and we're just imaginably rich. And I don't
(18:02):
know if they're stupid or if they if they simply
don't have a good grasp of how school systems work.
Where they were just confused, but it was it was
completely incomprehensible conversation school officials. We're even going to try
to negotiate to pay. They made it pretty clear. And
then they're like, we can't we're a school system. We
can't get you forty million dollars, and so, yeah, negotiates
this broke down. That's crazy. You made mention earlier to
(18:24):
how this is a growing problem and maybe a lot
of people don't really realize how big of a problem
it is. Is the White House you mentioned, the Biden administration,
they are formulating a plan to deal with this in
a broader sense. Yeah, that's right. We'll see when it happens.
They originally were thinking six eight weeks. Now they're thinking
they might have a formal plan sometimes sooner. I know
(18:46):
that the gist of it is going to lean on
international cooperation. So for instance, like like I've mentioned a
lot of times, these hackers coming or they're based in Russia,
which does not formally does not extradite their citizens. A
lot of countries do extradise, have extradition agreements with the
United States. Russia just flat out us not, and as
doesn't really often prosecute their own cyber criminals as long
(19:12):
as they're only hacking outside of Russian's borders. So I
think a lot of this is going to be about
getting international pressure on Russia start taking care of their
own internal problems, Kevin call, your reporter at NBC News.
Thank you very much for joining us. Thanks so mus
for having me. That's it for today. Join us on
(19:38):
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Leave us a comment, give us a rating, and tell
us the stories that you're interested in. Follow us on
I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
This episode of The Daily Dives produced by Victor Right
and engineered by Tony Sargantino. Hi'm Oscar Ramirez and this
(19:58):
was your Daily Dive. Brett fa
It's Monday, April nineteen. Hi'm Oscar Ramiers in Los Angeles
and this is the daily Dive. Dr Anthony Fauci addressed
the pause of the J and J vaccine on meat
the Press Sunday and said he does not expect the
use of the shot to be canceled, saying it could
be back in some form by Friday. Last week, we
(00:21):
also saw another mass shooting where the shooter was able
to obtain his guns legally despite being on the radar
of the FBI, and some of those charged with storm
in the Capitol are claiming that they were just there
as journalists, not to cause mayhem. Jinter Gibson, Deputy Washington
Digital editor at NBC News, joins us for more. Next.
The conversation around vaccine passports continues as many private businesses
(00:45):
and some states move ahead with developing methods to verify
that people have been vaccinated or have negative COVID tests.
At the same time, some states are trying to ban them.
Without federal leadership on the issue, people will most likely
have to navigate a patchwork approach with many apps to
choose from. Ashley Gold, tech and policy reporter at Axios
(01:06):
joins us for what might be next in this discussion. Finally,
ransomware attacks continue to be a problem for the country,
costing the US one point three billion dollars last year.
It has been an especially frustrating problem for schools that
have been targeted as they try to navigate closures due
to the pandemic. Kevin Collier, reporter at NBC News, tells
(01:26):
us about ransomware hitting schools, it's news without the noise.
Let's dive in the pause was to take a look,
make sure we know all the information we can have
within that time frame, and also warned some of the
physicians out there who might see people, particularly women who
(01:47):
have this particular adverse event, that they treat them properly.
Joining us now is Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor
at NBC News. Thanks for joining us, Ginger, hey's for
having me. Let's start off talking about some vaccine news.
The CDC and the FDA last week paused the use
of the J and J vaccine over concerns of blood clots.
(02:07):
There was only six cases and about seven million doses
that were administered, but you know, as they say, out
of an abundance of caution, they wanted to look into
the data see what was going on there. Dr Anthony
Faucci was on Meet the Press on Sunday and said
that he doesn't think they'll be canceling the vaccine completely
and hopes that maybe by Friday we'll have some new
(02:28):
guidance on it. That's right. So we saw this pause.
It was the first real bump in the road for Biden,
who had seemed to you know, enjoyed a stream of
good news, uh positive improving case numbers had started to
reverse in the last few weeks, and then this announcement
that they were pausing the use of the J and
J vaccine. And as as Dr Faucci said on Meet
(02:50):
the Press, you know, they're hoping this is just a
temporary pause and that they'll be able to continue administering
the vaccine within days um. And part of that, Fauci
has said, is to allow doctors to understand what they're
looking for if they're going to find this very rare
side effect. As you said, we're talking about six cases
and seven million. One in a million is very rare,
(03:12):
uh and not the type of of side effect that
would make a medication not be used. I mean, you
think about other medicines on the market have the same
kind of rates of reactions, and so what they want
to do is they want to make doctors aware that
this is a side effect that can happen, and also
make doctors aware of how to treat it. So if
you get a blood clot in your leg, there's a
(03:34):
certain protocol they would follow. This is a different type
of blood clot and it requires a different type of
medication in response. They just want doctors to know what
they're looking for, to be aware before they start readministering
the vaccine. Let's move on to the discussion about gun
control and red flag laws. Last week we saw another
mass shooting. This was at a FedEx facility in Indianapolis.
(03:56):
Brandon Scott Hole. He's nineteen years old. He was a
former employee. He is the one that killed about eight
people and injured a bunch of others. He bought his
guns legally last year and this was after he was
on the radar of the FBI. His mother called police.
They he said that she was worried he wanted to
commit suicide by cop. They seized the shotgun from his home,
(04:18):
but there was nothing, you know, bad going on at
that time. So they didn't charge him with or anything
like that. Uh, Indiana does have red flag laws, but
you know, it seemed like nothing really happened there. He
was still able to get his guns. So how does
that impact the conversation. Now, Yeah, we saw when the
President signed those executive orders a couple of weeks ago
about guns. One of them was trying to come up
(04:39):
with model legislation first states to have red flag laws
that work. And as you said, this kind of thing
if a family member friends says, I don't think the
person that I know is is mentally capable of having
a gun, that their risk to themselves and others, they
can be added to a list and it allows the
law enforcement to say this person shouldn't is a risk,
they shouldn't have a gun. And critics of these laws
(05:01):
say that when you do that, you take away people's
due process, that you don't allow them to have the
sort of the amount of scrutiny, that they can't oppose
these and that you could unfairly take people's guns away
from them. But I think, especially in cases like this,
when we see people trying to get guns taken away
from their family members and then ultimately sadly turning out
to be right that they should have had a firearm.
(05:23):
The fact of supports the idea that they need these
ways to do that, and I think we're gonna see
renewed efforts to the federal government to allow that to happen,
and I think to close the loopholes, because maybe Indiana
would stop if you could across the border into Illinois
and bought a gun, uh and not have been stopped,
you know, hypothetically speaking, they don't want that to happen.
So I think we're going to see more scrutiny on
(05:45):
how we get people who have been identified as risks
from buying guns. Finally, for today, I wanted to just
talk about some funny maneuvering when it comes to the
January six capital assault. There's a lot of people that
have been charged. I think they have over four hundred
federal cases out there now, but there's a rowing number
of people who were saying that, well, we're just journalists
out there, citizen journalists if you want to call them.
(06:06):
They were out there documenting history and they're you know, coming,
They have I guess, YouTube pages and things like that.
Insurgence Insurgence USA Thunderdome TV different things, and they're basically
saying we weren't there to cause mayhem, we were just
there to document it. So how does how has this
blurred the lines between traditional journalism I guess And if
(06:26):
you want to call them, uh, you know, citizen journalists,
activists with the cell phone. I mean, how do you
respond to that? Yeah, you know, askar as someone who
was in the building that day as a journalist working
as a journalist at the time. There's a currently easy
line to find Those of us that were working in
the building had been issued credentials. We were there and
had come from our news organizations to cover it. We
(06:48):
had our credentials with us. People who didn't have their
credentials probably weren't working journalists. I think the courts are
going to sort this out. But just because you can
point your phone at something doesn't mean you're a journalist.
And just because you documented yourself illegally entering the US
capital does not mean you were working as the media.
And that's the whole reason why you got charged. You
documented yourself breaking into the capital, right. I think that
(07:11):
it's a creative legal attempt, but probably not going to
stand up Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor at NBC News,
thank you very much for joining us. Thanks wing me.
Individual states, entities, and businesses are going to decide what's
(07:33):
best for them and the customers and people they serve,
So you may end up with a bunch of different
vaccination passports depending on what you're doing in your life.
Joining us now is Ashley Gold, Tech and policy reporter
at Axios. Thanks for joining us, Ashley, thank you. The
conversation about vaccine passports right now seems to be all
(07:55):
over the place. So we've seen a few states, Texas
and Florida most notably, sign some executive orders banning the
use of vaccine passports for businesses that might get government funding,
things like that, But still there's a lot of private businesses.
Some other states are moving ahead with plans to use
these vaccine passports. And the thing that we've been seeing
(08:18):
is that the Biden administration said, we're not going to
mandate any of this, So what's going to happen next.
We feel like there's gonna be a patchwork of different things,
you know, everybody kind of using a different system, and
it could create kind of a mess. So Ashley tell
us a little bit more about what we're seeing with
the conversation around vaccine passports. Right now, it's very segmented,
and it's very dependent on where you live, whether you
(08:41):
attend the university, whether you're going to school, whether you
work for a state agency. It's going to look completely
different depending on what you're doing, where you live, what
your job is. It's looking like there's going to be
no uniformity across the country for how this is going
to work. Individual states and to these and businesses are
(09:02):
going to decide what's best for them and the customers
and people they served. So you may end up with
a bunch of different vaccination prosports depending on what you're
doing in your life, but it will not be uniform
in any sort of way. You know. One of the
things I think about was early on in the pandemic,
when we're still trying to get things under control, a
lot was being made about contact tracing apps, and that
(09:25):
was going to be the thing that was going to
get us back to normal because we can follow people
that were infected, notify people to be careful, all that.
But again, there's no central contact tracing app. The federal
government didn't step in It was a patchwork of different
ones and it was a mess. None of those ever
took off. When we were reporting out this story, I
was very much reminded of the contact tracing situation. I
(09:48):
remember it was, you know, kind of it. We feel
that the big tech companies like Google and Apple were
on board, but with no incentive for the entire country
to participate in, something like that falls apart pretty quickly.
So a lot of private companies and some tech companies
are trying to figure some of those out. So far
right now, New York has rolled one out for like
sports and entertainment venues. You know, they can use it
(10:09):
if they choose. Hawaii is working on something so you
can bypass that two week quarantine. Those are the only
ones that we've really heard about working on stuff. But
what else are we seeing out there? So we're seeing
from universities require proof of vaccination for students to come
back on campus. We're seeing some individual businesses and services
(10:30):
require proof of vaccination. I've heard anecdotally from folks in Washington,
d C. Where I live. If you want a good
one DC public pool or something like that, they ask
you if you've been vaccinated. So it's like I was
saying before, it is very, very just broken up in
different Another interesting thing that we saw what some customer
(10:53):
phrasing flights like Rover Urban Babysitter and websites that you
can find caretaker. They're letting people put little badges on
their profiles, but they I've been vaccinated, I have credentials.
I can show you that I've been vaccinated. So that
is something like the caretaking industry is doing, which I
thought was interesting. Yeah, and in those cases it makes
(11:14):
sense to you. You sometimes you'll need to let somebody
into your house, things like that, being close quarters with people,
so it makes sense. And you know, on the business side,
it makes sense to businesses don't want to be liable
for outbreaks. They want to get plenty of people back
to use their services, right, So for them, it makes
sense and it makes sense why they would want to
go this way. For Republicans and some of the states,
(11:36):
like I said in Texas and Florida, who have already
tried to ban some of these things, they say it's
an issue of personal freedoms individual freedoms. But some legal
experts have said that the vaccine passports may stand up
to that test. Businesses can require them if they choose to.
I spoke to a legal expert at the University of
Pennsylvania and he basically said, being an unvaccinated individual does
(12:00):
not make you a protected class under the Civil rights
back and businesses can decide who they want to serve
or not serve for any reason, and when there's still
a public health crisis going on, it would be hard
to stand up in court that somebody was discriminating as
defined by the letter of the law, because he seemed
to think that anybody requiring some sort of proof of
(12:22):
vaccination was on pretty solid legal ground. Another thing to
note is that in Texas and Florida, both of these
bands on vaccine Tasks UH mandates were tied specifically two
entities that received state funding. So you're not really telling
a random restaurant what they can do. You're you're saying
what a government agency can do, so it's not as
(12:42):
far reaching as it might seem. Ashley Gold, tech and
policy reporter at Axios, thank you very much for joining us.
Thanks for having me name your face. This unwinnable choice,
you know, do I pay and gamble to maybe get
(13:04):
everything back? We have to scrap everything. I have all
my computer systems thrown in the garbage, buying fresh start
with you know, every database, I have all my files
all over again. It's it's a nightmare. Decisi. Joining us
now is Kevin Collier, reporter at NBC News. Thanks for
joining us, Kevin, Hey, thanks for having me. Ransomware attacks
have become an increasing problem in the country. These cyber
(13:28):
gangs usually target hospitals, city county governments, you know, even businesses,
places where there's not a robust cyber security team kind
of handling their information. Schools are also part of these targets.
And this story, Kevin, that you wrote a deal specifically
with schools, you know, throughout the pandemic. Obviously, we know
(13:49):
kind of the mess that the school system has been
with remote learning, hybrid learning in class, you know, going
back and forth, and then you add in some of
these ransomware attacks and it has become a lot, big
problem for a lot of schools, where I mean, in
some cases they had to cancel classes in person and
remote learning for a whole week just so they can
get back on track. So, Kevin, tell us a little
(14:09):
bit about what we're seeing with these ransomware attacks. Well,
these attacks, the criminals behind them are usually just looking
for targets of opportunity. And it can be you know,
like you said, if me, hospitals, it can be small businesses,
it can be can be anybody. But schools in particular
are just such a ripe target and one where the
damage is so clear and so profound everyday Americans, I
(14:30):
think the kind of rentsware epidemic is largely unacknowledged, just
how bad it is, how frequently it attacks nearly all
walks of life. But what I wanted to do with
this piece was really talked to the parents. I mean,
there have been dozens of attacks on schools, public schools
systems this year alone during the pandemic, and I spoke
(14:50):
with parents and multiple schools who have had to deal with,
you know, the pulling out their hair over raising their kids,
sending to kids to school during a pandemic anyway, and
then just all of a sudden, class are canceled. Now
you've got to find somewhere if you're a kid to
go because some hackers in Russia decided that you would
maybe pay up a little money, right exactly, and you know,
(15:10):
for just kind of how weird. It's been for obviously
growing through the pandemic. Ransomware attacks cost the US more
than one point three billion dollars anyways, so these attacks
are still going on throughout this whole thing. Tell me
a little bit about some of those conversations that you
had with parents and their stories. They were universally ones
of frustration. People are resilient, of course, but it's it's
(15:33):
just kind of like, oh my god. People had varying
degrees of patients with their school systems, and you know,
most school systems, you know, they're not prepared for this.
This catches them unaware and they just have to announce
their parents. Hey, sorry, guys, you got to deal with this.
But yeah, I mean, these parents are it's a really
crappy situation for them to be put in, and which
(15:55):
I think reflects the reality and the immediacy of kind
of cyber attacks on everyday of life. In all these
cases of ransomware, the you know, the FBI usually heads
up these investigations, and there's always this kind of discussion
whether to pay that ransom so you can get your
files and your computer systems back, or not to pay
(16:15):
for it because you know it promotes them, you know,
just doing it more. So that's been one of those things.
I think the FBI kind of basically says you shouldn't
be paying for it. The general guidances don't pay. And yeah,
I think most cyber experts will say that, you know,
all U S. Government agencies say they suggest you don't pay.
In most cases, it's not illegal to paying is not
(16:36):
a guarantee that you'll get things back. It might be
the easiest way to do so, but it's really hard
if you are a school for your hospital, especially hospitals
are really but pretty much anybody you know, your face
with this unwinnable choice. You know, do I pay and
gamble to maybe get everything back? Do I have to
scrap everything? I have all my computer systems thrown in
the garbage, buy and fresh start with you know, every database,
(16:59):
I have, all my files all over again. It's it's
a nightmare decision. Yeah, and even paying is risky too.
You mentioned the article, just over half of the victims
choose to pay, but then seventeen percent of those that
did still don't recover the files because the criminals on
the other side have to follow up and still give
you back the access to that stuff, and you made
mention even you know, in one case in Broward County
(17:21):
in Florida, that they were trying to negotiate something. The
hackers still published transcripts of their conversation on the website,
so just kind of muddies all the water. They were
looking for forty million dollars in ransom to release, you know,
all their school files. We released a redacted version of
the transcript the hackers had with the School of Fishers
(17:41):
and but in the fuller picture of the hackers, and
keep in mind, these again are usually Russians, They're usually
criminals who know the basics of hacking. They may not
be smart. The full conversation they had that the hackers
thought that somehow the school officials were connected with the
royal family and we're just imaginably rich. And I don't
(18:02):
know if they're stupid or if they if they simply
don't have a good grasp of how school systems work.
Where they were just confused, but it was it was
completely incomprehensible conversation school officials. We're even going to try
to negotiate to pay. They made it pretty clear. And
then they're like, we can't we're a school system. We
can't get you forty million dollars, and so, yeah, negotiates
this broke down. That's crazy. You made mention earlier to
(18:24):
how this is a growing problem and maybe a lot
of people don't really realize how big of a problem
it is. Is the White House you mentioned, the Biden administration,
they are formulating a plan to deal with this in
a broader sense. Yeah, that's right. We'll see when it happens.
They originally were thinking six eight weeks. Now they're thinking
they might have a formal plan sometimes sooner. I know
(18:46):
that the gist of it is going to lean on
international cooperation. So for instance, like like I've mentioned a
lot of times, these hackers coming or they're based in Russia,
which does not formally does not extradite their citizens. A
lot of countries do extradise, have extradition agreements with the
United States. Russia just flat out us not, and as
doesn't really often prosecute their own cyber criminals as long
(19:12):
as they're only hacking outside of Russian's borders. So I
think a lot of this is going to be about
getting international pressure on Russia start taking care of their
own internal problems, Kevin call, your reporter at NBC News.
Thank you very much for joining us. Thanks so mus
for having me. That's it for today. Join us on
(19:38):
social media at Daily Dive Pod on both Twitter and Instagram.
Leave us a comment, give us a rating, and tell
us the stories that you're interested in. Follow us on
I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
This episode of The Daily Dives produced by Victor Right
and engineered by Tony Sargantino. Hi'm Oscar Ramirez and this
(19:58):
was your Daily Dive. Brett fa
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