September 24, 2023 • 48 mins
America’s First Ladies have historically been expected to champion social causes, be style icons, and serve as the nation’s matriarch. In this episode, host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with CNN Contributor Kate Andersen Brower, and Daily Show Senior Producer Jeff Gussow to discuss how the role of First Lady has evolved, how they have impacted policy, navigated gender expectations, and shaped history.
Original air date: March 1, 2022
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes.
This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and
topics that aired originally on the Daily Show with Trevor Noah.
This is what this podcast is like. All right, So, like,
(00:23):
you ever had a chicken pot pie? And I'm not
talking about a frozen pot pie. I'm talking about one
of them, homemade straight out the oven pop pies. One
of them pot pie is made from somebody in a
good marriage them the best taste in pot pies. And
so you have a pot pie and it's good, but
you never know whether or not there's crust on the
bottom of the pot pie dish. Right, That's what this
(00:45):
podcast is. It's surprised it's crust on the bottom too,
because everybody likes mow crust. And that's what this podcast is.
It's the more crust of the Daily Show universe. I'm
Roy Wood Jr. And in honor of women's history, we're
taking a look at the powerful and influential roles that
the first ladies have played throughout history. Let's roll to
(01:08):
clip the first Lady.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's not a job that's actually in the Constitution, but
that's just because in seventeen eighty seven, women hadn't been
invented yet. And even though first Lady is not an
official role, they've been important figures in the country from
the very beginning. Maybe the most fascinating thing about first
ladies is that even though no one votes for them
and they kind of make up the job as they go,
(01:32):
just by virtue of being married to the president, they
can end up having a lot more power than many
elected officials. The first Lady is the most powerful woman
in the country because she has the ear first.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Thing in the morning and last thing at night.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Of the most powerful man in the country.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Going back to the very first first Lady, Martha Washington
and the second one, Abigail Adams, both of them were
politically involved. They were involved in cabinet decisions, They were
involved in campaign These women were political partners.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Nancy Reagan was pulling a lot of the strings, calling
many of the shots. From President Ronald Reagan's first campaign
for the White House back in nineteen eighty to his
Cold War ending triumph in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Hillary Clinton became more involved, obviously in policymaking than any
first lady before her.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
She had an office in the West wing.
Speaker 6 (02:19):
Bill Clinton even ran on the slogan buy one, get
one free.
Speaker 7 (02:22):
In nineteen nineteen, Edith Wilson was unofficially running the country
after her husband Woodrow suffered a stroke.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Today, I'm joined by Daily Show producer and very sad
Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan because Brady retired, Jeff Gusso, Jeff,
welcome to the show. How you been?
Speaker 8 (02:40):
I'm good man? How you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Roy? Look, it's Brady's been going about a month.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Man.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
It's okay, man. You got to get past it, you know.
Speaker 8 (02:47):
I'm sure the bucks looks like again next year.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So we're also joined by CNN contributor and New York
Times best selling author of the book First Women, The
Grace and Power of America's First Ladies and the Residents,
Kate Anderson Brower. Thank you for joining us and going
beyond the scenes with us today. How are you?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I'm great? Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm excited the elegance. You hear that, Jeff, you hear
the elegance. This is gonna be a good ass conversation. So, Jeff,
before I get to you, ladies, first, Kate, help us
for the people who don't know myself included help us
understand the role of the first lady. You know, it's
it's unpaid first and foremot we want to talk about
(03:33):
some inequity. It's an unelected role. There really doesn't seem
to be a rule book on what you can and
can't or should and shouldn't do. But yet everybody has
an opinion on what a first lady should or shouldn't
be doing. So what are some of the expectations of
the role.
Speaker 6 (03:50):
Well, it's a very archaic, old fashioned title, right, you know.
Jackie Kennedy said that she never wanted to be called
first lady. It sounded like a saddle horse. She said,
it was like a demeaning name. It's very arcane because
people don't understand it, and even years of studying it myself,
I've found it to be completely dependent on the person
(04:12):
who has the position. One person wrote to Betty Ford,
who was first Lady in the seventies, and said, you're
constitutionally required to be perfect.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I think that kind of sums it up.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
They are supposed to be ideal wives and mothers, the
symbol of what it is to be an American woman,
juggling everything and each of them fails in their own way,
and I think they feel as though, after a little
bit of time in the position, that they just have
to make it their own and do what they want
(04:44):
with it, because, as Rosalind Carter said, no matter what,
you're going to be criticized. And you know, there's a
lot of sexism obviously and in the world still, and
I think that there's a sense that each woman is
held up to these very unfairpecs, and so they have
to make the role their own. And there's nothing in
the constitution that describes what they have to do, so
(05:05):
they can do as little like Milania Trump, for instance,
or as much like eleanor Roosevelt or Hillary Clinton or
Michelle Obama, these women that really took the role incredibly seriously.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
So it just depends on each woman.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, because you know Michelle Obama, you know she it
was the school Lunch initiative, you know, healthier nutrition, you know,
the Let's Move program. You know, you look at everything
that Betty Fortt was doing with regards to you know,
just being vocal about women's issues. We don't have to
talk about Nancy Reagan and just say no, we know
the history of that, how do some of the expectations
(05:41):
of the first lady play into some of the gender
norms and gender roles that I believe a lot of
women are trying to break out of, or at least
trying to change what the base level expectations are of
a first seight, because you know, they're responsible for a
lot of the domestic duties in the white not literally
cleaning and cooking, but organizing the social events and oh,
(06:04):
you got to decorate the tree, and we have to
make sure everything is set for dinner. Like how much
of those expectations are part of the role.
Speaker 6 (06:11):
I mean, one of the funniest things that happened during
the Trump administration was when Milania, you know there, was
caught talking to a friend on the phone and saying
something about how she just didn't want to deal with
the stupid Christmas decorations. And I think everyone was like
agast at that because that's what the job is, and
it just looked bad too.
Speaker 7 (06:31):
They say, I'm more uncompleted.
Speaker 8 (06:34):
I'm the same like him.
Speaker 9 (06:35):
I support him. I don't say enough, I don't do
enough where I am I put I'm working like a ass.
I know Christmas stuff that you know who gives a
about Christmas stuff and the curation.
Speaker 6 (06:48):
But I need to do it right.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
But I mean, look at Michelle Obama.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
She was making you know, almost three hundred thousand dollars
at the University of Chicago Medical Center in their communications office.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
She went to Harvard and.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
She's incredibly well educated, and yet her role was in
many ways to just take care of the daughters.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 6 (07:08):
The mother in chief role that Michelle Obama took up
was really powerful, especially for you know, a black woman.
I thought that that was really important for her to
make this point that she was going to focus on
her daughters, and there was nothing wrong with that. I
think that you have to be able to just accept
women doing as much or as little as they want.
(07:29):
Then you see Hillary Clinton, who had an office in
the West Wing and she always regretted having that office
because she realized that she overstepped that the American people
were not ready for it. And I think that's unfortunate.
Right that we have a moved beyond that, and I
think it's going to take a first gentleman, if that's
what we call him, to be okay with a woman
(07:51):
doing as much or as little as she as she wants.
I mean, if Bill Clinton were first gentleman, I think
that no one would be expecting him to be, you know, beig.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Cookies, arranging the Christmas decoration and redesigning the White House lawn.
That's why, Jeff, that's why I was like, in a
weird way during the last election, I was kind of
pulling for Corey Booker just because I wanted the chaos
of an unmarried man in the White House, Like, who's
gonna do what if? Like, granted he's in a relationship
(08:23):
with Rosario Dawson at the time, but you know, are
you still a first lady if your first girlfriend? Like
I wanted chaos? Dude, what was like the main inspiration
for putting this piece together? And just talk to us
a little bit about the ideation of that at the
Daily Show.
Speaker 8 (08:37):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it was about November twenty twenty,
the election, I think had just happened, and we were
sort of like looking at like all the changes that
were about to happen with Joe Biden and doctor Joe
Biden coming in in January, and I think we were
trying to like, you know, we just wanted to focus on,
like what is this role? What is this handoff between
Milania Trump to Joe Biden? And you know, what is
the history? What are the expectations? Four years of Donald
(08:59):
Trump and Milinia Trump had been so chaotic and like,
was what Malinnia Trump did normal?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Was it not normal?
Speaker 8 (09:05):
What is expected of Joe Biden? So we wanted to
honor these ladies, but we also wanted to like get
the crux of like, you know, how the job can
be good and how the job can be bad. You know,
give it, you know, give people full sense of it,
you know, which is difficult in ten minutes, but you know,
that was the big idea of what we were trying
to get to.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It's interesting because you know, it's a role where, you know,
traditionally they all have to champion some sort of social calls,
you know, and you know it, and that's been the
traditional Traditionally, you have to have something that you really
give a lot of extra, give a damn about, and
you have to roll out a plan about that to
the American people over the next four years and hopefully
(09:43):
with no scandals messing it up in the meantime. But
I feel like the role has evolved over the years.
What are some of the ways that first ladies just
in the research that you've seen, Jeff, what are some
of the ways that the first ladies have kind of
made this role their own? And I will love to
hear from you as well on that, Kate.
Speaker 8 (10:02):
When we were developing the peace chronologically, when we had
like eleanor Roosevelt, like that was a big one that
like there was so much to unpack and we felt
like that was really like where it changed, where it
was like more front where you could be visibly like, uh,
you know, pushing for these causes and you know, advocating
on beliefs. Each one made it their own, and so
like the connecting line through them all was like they
(10:23):
each had their cause like that they would believe in.
They were supporting their their husbands and the presidents, but
they were also like advocating for like women's issues and
social causes that like would help further you know generations.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
From the earliest days, America's first ladies were referred to
as Lady Presidentiists or Republican Queen.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
The term first Lady didn't come into use really until
Dolly Madison's time.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The fourth First Lady pioneered the practice of championing social causes.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
She helped orphan children and supported women's.
Speaker 7 (10:55):
Rights, And it said that at missus Madison's funeral, President
Zach Taylor eulogized her as the country's first Lady, the
first time that title was ever used.
Speaker 6 (11:07):
I was just thinking about what you were saying Roy earlier,
about if Corey Booker had been elected, and I think
his mother or his sister or niece or someone would
have stepped in to take over the role, because there's
just no way that they would let that go, like
somebody needs to.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Fill in, And we saw Thomas Jefferson.
Speaker 10 (11:28):
Yes you need a woman, And I still don't know why,
but we feel the need to have this position, and
like James Buchanan was a bachelor and his niece, Harriet Lane,
you know, took over this going back in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But like the idea that we would elect.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
An unmarried person as president, I think is such an
interesting question because we attached so much, like you know,
meaning to being married and having a family, and like
how that would make you responsible. And I just I
feel like we haven't moved far enough away from.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Those really old fashioned ideas.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
No the First Lady is arguably one of the most
important advisors to the president. I don't believe that it
was a coincidence that, you know, you know, Reagan ran
a big deal on having a war on drugs and
then Nancy had just say, no, how much of a
role or how much influence does the First Lady have?
(12:25):
Like in what ways her First Lady's impacted policy in
this country?
Speaker 6 (12:29):
I mean, a very recent example is Michelle Obama with
her Let's Move campaign that you mentioned earlier about you know,
having healthy lunches and ketchup doesn't count as a vegetable
in school lunches and all of that. She was really
China continue make it like a very healthy, you know
environment for kids who sometimes you know, hot lunch is
(12:53):
like their only meal of the day for some kids
in this country, which is just like terrible. And so
she really wanted to make sure they had new, tricious food.
And Matt dovetailed with the Let's Move campaign, which was
about exercise, and with her husband's childcare nutrition bill that
they were trying to get through Congress, and so she
would make calls to senators and members of Congress trying
(13:15):
to push that bill through and that's a real example
of a first lady getting involved in policy.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Hillary Clinton wanted Ruth.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court and let her husband
know that she was the right pick. So there are actual,
real ways that they're getting involved. And they call it
pillow talk, which I still think is kind of silly,
but the idea that at night, this is the last
person they're the president's presumably going to be seeing, so
they can influence policy. But like you mentioned Betty Ford,
(13:44):
and I think a lot of people know about what
she did to talk about drug and alcohol addiction, but
that happened after she was in office, like that, the
Betty Ford Center was years later, And so I think
they have this tremendous power for the rest of their
lives if they choose to use it.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So we all know that Nancy Reagan was one of
the people that got you know, her husband to fire
Donald Reagan, who was then his chief of staff. And
then this one doesn't necessarily compare the same because it
was one hundred years ago, but we also know that,
you know, I think it was it was it Woodrow
Wilson that I have the stroke and Edith, and Edith
(14:24):
was running the country after her husband, like not intern
official capacity, but unofficially she would, you know, Woodrow whispering,
this is what you need to tell him to do,
and then she would go password to the vice president.
Does that support system make the president stronger or is
it like where's the line of hey, here's what you
should do versus he let me do my job.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
I mean, that's such a good question when you bring
up Edith and Nancy, those are two first ladies. The
reasons why they were so powerful is they decided who
could see their husbands, right Like Nancy Reagan decided who
would be chief of staff. She decided even when they
were putting the cabinet together, who should be in the cabinet.
And then Edith Wilson was keeping people away from her
husband when he was sick. So it's the idea of
(15:07):
who's controlling the people who can get into the oval
office or have the president's here. So I think that
that's where the power lies in the position of first lady,
is being that person who can control people who have
access to their husband. And I think a lot of
people would say first ladies shouldn't have any control, right
because they're not elected.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I would argue that most first ladies that have kind
of been doing the pillow talk has been for the
better of the country, not necessarily for the detriment. We
don't know if Milania ever slept in the sing be
but Trump after maybe the first year. But in terms
of understanding just how influential this role is. Why do
women have to live in the shadows and be unpaid
(15:52):
in that regard? If you have a stroke and I'm
the middle man between you and the chief of staff
when the bombs again, this is back in the night
nineteen hundreds, Prohibition, War War one was around the corner.
Should I get a little bit of money for being
a first lady?
Speaker 6 (16:08):
It is ridiculous, And that's what doctor Biden is trying
to do. I think by having a job, by being
paid for that job. She's teaching, of course, and she
had taught her entire life. The only time she took
a break was during the campaign. And I think that
it's important that women be able to continue their jobs.
And Laura Bush, it's not a partisan thing either.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Laura Bush said the same thing.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
She said, first ladies should be, you know, given the
opportunity to pursue whatever career they had. I mean, you
cannot expect Hillary Clinton to just sit idly by. And
I think I think that being paid for being First
Lady is different than being paid for continuing your job
as a teacher, which is outside you know, the role.
(16:54):
I think that's easier to convince people it's.
Speaker 8 (16:57):
Okay, especially like as much work, like you know, still
expectations of like stuff doing at the White House, but
like you know, Jill Biden has been traveling all over
you know, visiting you know, tornado victims and things like that.
So like there's still just a lot of work as
well that they are doing and still expected to do
as well, and like to not get paid for that,
but also have an office that like with a staff
that reports to them. Like, why is the boss not paid?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, you're paid for prestige and the book deal. After
you leave office this day, you get faith. Jeff, what
what didn't make it into the piece? Because that's the
thing I'm always curious about you all right, what argument
did y'all have when this piece was thirteen minutes and
you knew you had to chop it down to ten?
Speaker 8 (17:42):
Yeah, I mean, you know, every woman that's been a
first lady has. Like you know, there's documentaries about them,
there's books about them, Like there's hundreds of sources on them,
and stories to tell, and like it's very difficult to
like narrow it down. And like right off the top,
Dolly Madison was where we sort of started this piece,
and like, you know, one of the stories that was
interesting but we just didn't have time for it was
like her saving like all these you know, government documents
(18:04):
in the Washington portrait when the British were storming of
the White House, and it was just like a fascinating story,
but like we just didn't have the time to like
explain that story. Eleanor Roosevelt we spent one entire role on.
And there was like two stories that like I thought
were really interesting but we just didn't have room for.
One was that, like you know, she was very a
big advocate for the anti lynching legislation and the KKK
(18:25):
put it like a bounty on her. And then she
also would hold women only press conferences. A lot of
newspapers that only had men reporters would have to either
hire women reporters or you know, get women to report
on these stories and to like it's saved with these
jobs and like was a real force for like having
women enter into journalism. And so you know, you're condensing
all this history into like you know, it's a thirteen
(18:46):
minute piece, and like the sound bites that we use
are like a minute each roughly, so you know, trying
to tell eleanor Roosevelt's entire story and a minute is impossible.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
After the break, I want to get into now that
we know the role in the expectations of the first Lady,
the criticism and the haters who love or talk that shit. Kate,
I want you to break down all the shit talking
and hating and unrealistic expectations that first ladies go through.
It's Women's History Month. We are going beyond the scenes
(19:19):
on the history of the First Lady and also first Dude.
We'll talk about him a little later, the first Gentleman.
Gentle I think you should be due first Dude. No
y'all disagree, Okay, that's right. We have the scenes when
we come back. Kate, we were talking in the previous
(19:40):
break about the expectations and whether or not some women
want to deal with the stress of that and Milania
being you know, caught off the what she thought was
off the record, complaining about some of the stuff, which
also I didn't Jeff, did you all come across this
in your research that if Milania didn't want to be
first Lady, Ivanka was gonna stay at the end like
(20:00):
a subject like first of a daughter lady.
Speaker 8 (20:04):
Do you remember that story, Like Malani was going to
stay in New York if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, she wasn't going to go to the White House.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
And that lasted for what a few months before they
decided to move down there because like security was an
issue and like they just decided to to make it easier.
Maybe I must remember that. I think that was, but yeah,
it was, Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
And Michelle Obama and some of the other first Ladies
were like jealous of Milania for doing that, because Milania,
like the expectation was you move to the White House
when your husband moves into the residence.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
And she just flipped the script and didn't do it.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
And I think that that these other women were like,
what I could have done the same thing, Like none
of them really wanted to move in right away. So
in a way, that was one of the more interesting things.
And I think it kind of great thing. Well, you know,
she did a lot of terrible things I think as
source lady, but one of the good things was not
(20:58):
doing what we all expected her to do all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And that brings me to the scrutiny because let's let's
be real, none of these women asked for this role.
They just married a dude and then one day the
dude was like, Hey, I want to be in charge
of everything. I'm gonna need you to bake cookies and
pet the dog and take nice photos. And if you
don't move a certain way within that, within that construct,
(21:25):
you get scrutiny from the press, social media. Now twenty
four hour news cycle hasn't helped at all. How do
the first ladies, like, how do they how do they
handle that constant scrutiny? And number one, how you keep
from going crazy? Kate? How do you keep from going crazy?
Especially if you Malani, you know, Milania didn't think he
was gonna win. I'm gonna be president? That this nice
(21:48):
don't know where's money? Give me?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
How did the first ladies? How do they deal with
that scrutiny? You know and try and keep their head
on straight.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
You look at what happened to Ready Ford in the
White House. She got addicted to painkillers and alcohol. I mean,
I think a lot of them dealt with it in
really unhealthy ways.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I think it's really hard for them to manage it.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Some of them reach out to each other, like Michelle
Obama and Laura Bush talked occasionally. One of the coolest
parts of this First Lady's documentary on CNN is when
they show David Axelrod Obama's advisor, with Michelle Obama and
it's during the campaign, and she's like, I don't understand
(22:32):
in two thousand and eight why people think that I'm
angry and not like approachable. And he just played this
video of her speech with the sound off, and he's like,
look at your facial expressions, Look how you come across.
And she was like, she was just stunned because that's
not how she saw herself. That's not how people who
(22:53):
knew her saw her.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
I called her in to show her what people were seeing,
and I earned the sound down and just let her
see herself.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
In a country, in a world based.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
She got it immediately. She was getting all of this.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
You know, remember when she said the phrase and I'm
gonna butcher it, but it's about you know, I'm proud
of my country for the first time, and it wasn't
quite that harshly said, but that was seized upon by
the right and made into this huge, huge issue.
Speaker 9 (23:34):
Hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback.
And let me tell you something, for the first time
in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country,
and not just because Barack is done well, but because
I think people are hungry for change.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
As the first black first lady, she just had tremendous
pressure and I think she leans on her good friends
like Valerie Jared in the White How she you know,
kept a really tight group of women around her, people
she had known forever from Chicago.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Her mom lived with them, which helped a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That probably helped im mentally.
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Yeah, for the Michelle Obama criticism, you know, one of
the pieces in the discoveryes like we remember that, Like
she was criticized for wearing shorts, you know, just like
regular shorts. There's photos that were getting off a planet.
I think they were going to Hawaii maybe for like
one of the winter vacations, and like there was like
just outrage on conservative media about like is it acceptable
for Michelle Obama to be wearing shorts and that?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So then to that point, Jeff, in your research, and
I'm sure this is probably a lot more recent, let's
just say, from Clinton onward, did you see a double standard?
Like just in watching the footage as you're just going
through hours and hours of footage, is their double standard?
And how liberal versus conservative media, Like, let's just go
with Fox News. If Michelle Obama can't wear shorts, Barack
(24:57):
can't wear a tan suit? Bla on a jacket then
on the back it said fuck all of y'all something.
Let me ask K Kate, is that what did I say?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I don't think K exactly say that. I really I don't.
I really don't care, do you?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (25:13):
It was like a thousand dollars jacket too, right, Like
it was like a like a really expensive jacket.
Speaker 6 (25:17):
It was a really No, it was like a forty
dollars jacket, which made it even weirder because she normally
wore fifty thousand dollars jackets.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
So it made no sense.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
But is there is there a double standard Jeff? And
how the media chooses to scrutinize or uplift first ladies.
Speaker 8 (25:34):
Now, yeah, I mean I think everyone goes to their
home side and starts advocating and tearing down the other
side because that's what's expected. You know, we were talking
earlierbout the Michelle Obama like Let's move campaign and like
you know, growing a garden and the White House and
like conservative media didn't like that, Like they attacked her
for encouraging kids deep vegetables. So it's you know, like
carrots are a cultural worn thing. Now there was a
(25:56):
whole thing of like mockery of like calling doctor Jill Biden,
doctor Jill Biden like a degree she had earned, and
it was like a cycle of news of we're not
going to call her doctor. She's not an actual doctor.
If you're dying in the street, she's not going to
operate on you right there, So therefore she's not a doctor.
And you know the same thing, like anything Malanie did
would be defended. Wearing the jacket was fine, you know,
no criticism.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Kate, Why is there such scrutiny around what a first
lady like? Historically it's always been a thing like I
remember my mother and to this day, my mom talks
about I want elbow length gloves like Jackie o Nasis.
That's all like, I don't know what it is, but
(26:37):
for her there is a regalness, there's an elegance that
she associates with the first leader, and I too can
be as elegant and grand as Jackie on nisis all
the way down to oh my god, Michelle Obama showed
her arms. Could you believe she out there showing arms?
(26:57):
She looked like a baby mama. What is with the
fascination and the scrutiny of what first ladies choose to wear?
Speaker 8 (27:06):
You know?
Speaker 6 (27:07):
I think that And it's interesting because that Jackie Kennedy
is like the famous Chanelle suits that she would wear,
the pillbox hat that was all made in America because
she got criticized for wearing foreign designers, so she had
knockoffs made in the US of these fancy gowns, and
then she was the first first lady to bring in
her you know, own basically in house stylist. I think
(27:31):
that the thing with Michelle Obama's arms was really strange
to me because there was such a fascination with them
also and just how like, you know, I think she
started a whole craze of women wanting to look like
her too, because she is so in shape, right, and
we don't see first ladies normally they're a bit dowdier
like Barbara Bush, right, and they look more like your grandma,
(27:53):
And so I think that in a way. You know,
there was also a lot of positives about the arms,
At least to me, I thought her arms were amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Dated style staples.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I would argue she did like the sleeveless sheaths that
she wore.
Speaker 6 (28:07):
But to your question about why it matters, I think
it's because they can't really say anything, Like they can't
come out Laura Bush is pro choice, she can't come
out and say that her husband's pro life. So they
can't say anything substantive. So the only way they can
be heard is through these choices of what they're wearing.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Do you think Hillary's pant suit plays into that same thing,
because I mean, she ran for office while she was
still First Lady, So it was almost like a statement
in saying like, no, I'm here to handle y'all. Respect suits,
as that's what people wear when you think they're here
to handle business. So I'm gonna wear a pantsuit, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
I think so.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
I think absolutely, but I think there's a risk of
weighing in, like reading into it too much. Like Millennia
wore white at the State of the Union one year,
and we were all thinking, oh, is she a suffrage
just now?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Is this you know, white is the color of the
suffrage movement, and you.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Know, is she is this a hidden message to her
husband when really we see that was just what democrats.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I think we're secretly hoping for with Milania.
Speaker 6 (29:08):
I think there was a lot of hope that she
was this prisoner in the White House, and in reality
she was really one hundred percent behind him on every issue.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Tough as nails. I mean, she's not some victim.
Speaker 6 (29:21):
And I think we see that now that she's doing
all this stuff with selling NFTs and you know, kind
of making money off of the position in a way
we have never seen before, because you know, usually you
donate your gowns to the Smithsonian so the Americans can
see it and you know it's part of American history,
and not selling it to the highest bidder.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
You've said it at an ouption for a quarter of
a million dollars and then no one bids on it,
didn't they take it off the market?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Well depressing that, Jeff, What does the scrutiny say though
about gender expectations?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
You know, like you cannot show your arms, you cannot
show too much leg even though we're on to Hawaii
where you will wear a bikini, wait until you are
alone in private to put on the bikini. And what
happens you know when a first lady strays away from
that ideal?
Speaker 8 (30:10):
It'll be interesting to see, like we were talking earlier
about like you know, what happens when it's the first gentleman,
Like are those like are those same criticisms like if
there's you know, can a first gentleman show too much skin?
Can you know? Or are they going to be criticized for
what clothes they wear? Uh? You know, like you just
put it in that context, like I don't think that
it's not gonna happen. Exactly, it's not gonna happen. So
(30:32):
it's it you know that right there shows like the
delicate like you know, you know, high wire, you know,
walk that these these women have to do to like
not offend on every little thing that like someone will
take offense to and like one person taking offense to
you know, showing arms or legs or wearing the wrong hat.
It turns into a news cycle for days and weeks,
(30:53):
and then it becomes a thing that people are questioning
and get asked about.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Okay, how much does feminism play into what's happened in
the last twenty years as well? And some of the
choices that first ladies make that push against the societal
expect the traditional societal expectations of the first lady.
Speaker 6 (31:10):
I mean, the point that Jeff was making is that
a man in this position.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Wouldn't be scrutinized because he wore.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Shorts at all, and the fact that a woman would
shows that we haven't really made very.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Much headway, you know.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
And the fact that you know, I don't I mean,
Michelle Obama probably I don't think she could have continued
her career as a lawyer, just because there probably are
conflicts of interest and all of that. But you know
the fact that doctor Biden is getting criticized for using
the doctor title, it's just such a sign that, you know,
we haven't made the strides in the White House that
(31:47):
we have. Outside of the White House. I think there's
been more progress. I mean, listen, women still don't get
paid the same as men. For the same work. So
I don't think we've made enough strides. But I think
for some reason, this r it's just it's ingrained in
our conscience because it's the closest thing we have to
the royal family, and so I feel like we treat
(32:08):
them kind of like queens, you know, instead of professional women.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
And I don't know how we get out of that.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, because those are our two royal families, the White
House and the Kardashians.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
That's the sad statements.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, they both influence fashion. Before we go to the break, Jeff,
how do you unpack all of this stuff and figure out, like,
how do y'all zero in on what's funny? Because the
balance at the show is always what do you need
to know? Versus what would be entertaining? So how did
(32:46):
you all navigate trying to put jokes in the middle
of Oh yeah, she's criticized, probably racially motivate, Oh yeah,
Milania might not move to Washington, d C. How do
y'all navigate infusing humor into a historical segment?
Speaker 8 (33:04):
You know, sometimes we'll just give a bucket to some
of the writers and be like, well, we could end
on this story, we could end on that story. We'll
give them three different stories and let them choose which
one they think they have the best opportunity to make
a joke off of. You know, it's not always necessarily
finding the funniest footage, although that's always you know, it's
always a goal. And so like, you know, we came
across the footage of like Best Truman, you know, and
she was, you know, she's christening these planes. We use
(33:27):
this you know story in the piece, these Christie's these
planes and she's given a champagne bottle that's not scarred,
like it's not like cracked, so like you know, it
doesn't break. The footage is like this nineteen forties newsreel,
so it's like the you know at the airfield there's
you know drama. Yeah, it takes exactly and you see
the footage and they just you know, she's whacking it
and whacking it over and over and over again, and
(33:49):
like you just hear these studs and you feel so
bad for this woman because it's just like that, you
hear the audience laughter, and like the narrator's telling everything
that's going on, and like it has to happen like
half a dozen dozen times I we had been able
to like just play the entire thing in its entirety,
because like it just builds and the drama builds, and
like you just hear it and you just feel so
bad at a certain point, but you know, going on.
Speaker 6 (34:10):
I had never seen that before. Actually I thought that
was really fun. And you feel so bad for her, you.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Really do, and you're like, oh bad, Like I can't
imagine like what that if that had happened today, how
like crazy the news would have been of like, you know,
Jill Biden not able to break a champagne bottle? What
does that say about Democrats?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
It's like kind of feigned walking out of that sprinter
during the election, Oh she got to pass it out?
Is that the president.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Look at Jill Biden going up on the stage.
Speaker 6 (34:40):
I loved that when she went up on the stage
during the campaign and like went and like defended our
husband against some protesters, and like you see stuff like
that and you see who they are. You just see
them as human beings, and we don't get to see
that enough.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I think for first ladies.
Speaker 8 (34:55):
Yeah, they definitely have to mask who they really are
to like be this persona that America will accept Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
So then right there, that's a great place to go
to break because I want on the other side of
the break as we wrap up here, I want to
find out from both of you what you think deems
a first lady successful. Just just just marinate on that,
and we got to talk about first dude and what's
the role of first dude because we have a chance now, Jeff,
(35:23):
you and I to establish what the baseline rules will
be first dude outfits and his role in the White House.
This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Kate.
I'll start with you because you have a New York
Times bestseller about a lot of the first ladies that
occupy this space. Jeff, I don't think you have a
(35:43):
best do you?
Speaker 8 (35:44):
I do not no books?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Okay, So then Kate, I will start with you what
makes a first lady successful? Because like I feel like
with the role of president, it's not really like there's
the presidency and then there's the twenty twenty year after
glow when we look at the policies and how they
actually matriculated or not. And I feel like a president's
(36:09):
judged twice in a way, or you can, you know,
pull a bush and do a revision it's history and
sit next to Michelle Obama and give a little pieces
of candy and everybody forgets it about yeah that stuff.
But for the role of first lady, you know what
deems a first lady successful? And what do you think
of our current first lady, doctor Jill Biden.
Speaker 6 (36:31):
Well, we've been talking about how the role has changed
or not, and how old fashioned it is and how
inherently gendered it is. I think that each first lady
who moves it forward just moves the ball forward.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
It's going to be it takes a long time to
get there.
Speaker 6 (36:50):
But I think, you know, Michelle Obama, first Black first lady,
just simply by being there, she did so much and
then by doing so much good Michelle Obama had a
lot of assets that other first ladies don't have. She's
able to, like, be very relatable and warm, and I
think some people like Milania are just not able to
(37:12):
do that. But I think that moves the ball for it.
I think Hillary Clinton did by having that West Wing
office that she regretted by becoming a senator and you know,
a candidate for president and the first woman to win
the nomination was huge, but it's just moving the ball,
you know, down the field. I don't know my sports
analogies that well, but like we're you know, each each
(37:34):
one is doing little like you know, inch by inch,
And I think doctor Biden is the best recent example
of that, because just by having a job is so
like crazy that we think that's amazing, but it is
because no one's done it. Before she gets paid, she
leaves the White House, she goes to her job. That's
(37:55):
amazing that she's done that, And a lot of people
don't like it. But people were worried that she wouldn't
be able to balance everything. And I think that the
main problem she has is, you know, during the pandemic,
is just having the ability to do the traditional things
that we expect, like you know, she doesn't really have.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Like one.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Set platform, you know.
Speaker 6 (38:17):
But neither did Melania because be Best just didn't really
count to me because it just was way too broad
and we don't know what it meant. And like doctor Biden,
I don't think I don't think she has one thing
that she's latched onto yet. And and I know from
you know, having talked to her and people around her
that because it's because of the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Jeff, we have a second gentleman in the White House
right now, and you know, number one, what do we
think the role of it? Because I think it's an
interesting opportunity if we're talking about gender dynamics and the
role of a man than the house as it relates
(39:01):
to supporting his woman, because I believe that what's going
on between Kamala Harris and her husband, there are a
lot of households like that in America where the woman
is the mover and the shaker and she's the one
kind of more in the forefront. What do you think
the role of first gentleman will look like, you know,
as we go forward, because we are having more women
(39:22):
in politics, this is not uncommon, so Kamala is not
going to be the last of this iteration of the
working the working woman politician being at the forefront and
the man being there and being supportive. What do you
think the first gentleman should do?
Speaker 9 (39:37):
Like?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
What? What? What are the expectations?
Speaker 8 (39:39):
Yeah, I think it will be really interesting to watch
because it's like, you know, with the with the responsibilities
that are you know, handed off to first ladies right now,
Like will they end up having to like decorate the
Christmas trees, Like is that a responsibility? And if they are,
are is it going to be like traditional where like
they're on a ladder, you know, not you know, hammering
up the Christmas lights? Like is that is it going
to be like that traditional? Like the guy is going
(40:00):
to be you know, hanging out the you know, mowing
the lawn, you know, the front lawn. Like it'll be
interesting to say, see like.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
How God the first gentleman, the first gentleman dug him
half is now going to start up the official Congressional
hedge trimmer.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
You know, they'll be doing the engine work on the
on the beast right, you know, the limos like so
let's be in the garage, like you know, if they're
if there are expectations to do, like what the gender
defined roles are, then like you know, those are the
things that you know, we you know, seeing that role.
So I hope that like if when that happens, that
like you know, when it goes starts going back and
forth between having a first gentleman and a first lady,
(40:41):
when it goes back to being a first lady, that
like a lot of those roles, those expectations are gone
and like first ladies and women can do whatever they want,
and like there isn't that gender, you know, defined roles anymore.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Yeah. I think another part of it as well, Kate, is,
you know, when once we see a woman in office
who has children and the role that the first gentleman
plays in the expectations of parenting and fatherhood. I think
that's probably something that'll probably be a bigger part of
(41:13):
the conversation as we see more and more women elected
into higher and higher positions in this country.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
I think so.
Speaker 6 (41:19):
And I think, you know, to Jeff's point about Doug
m Hoff, like the idea that you know, we're actually
not seeing him expected to play those male like that.
You know, we're not expecting him to be this tough,
macho guy. Like he's out there. He's very warm and
fuzzy and kind of he's the consoler in the dynamic,
(41:43):
right Kamala Harris is getting business done and she's the
powerful person and right now in their relationship, and he
seems okay with that. You know, he's teaching law at Georgetown,
he was a corporate lawyer right in California, and he's
put that you know, that's taken the back seat. And
now he's out there, you know, visiting people getting COVID
(42:04):
shots and consoling. Recently, he console the kid who was
crying because they were afraid about the COVID shot. Like
he's doing the stuff that we expect women to do.
And I think that that's what is so great about him,
is that he's just secure enough whatever in his manhood
or whatever that you know, let's move forward where they
(42:25):
don't have to be tough. He can be you know, himself.
And I think I think that's a great thing about
that dynamic. And I don't know why we're not talking
more about it, Like, to me, that's amazing that we
have a second gentleman and it doesn't get that much
press attention.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
And I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
What is the relationship between the first Ladies, you know,
because it's a very unique shared experience that like literally
less than fifty people can honestly say that they've done,
Like there is there a First Ladies group chat. I know,
you said Laura and Michelle, Laura Bush and Michelle Obama.
You know, they talked a little bit while Michelle was
(43:04):
in office, But I look at that as more of
a transitional Here's what to expect. Girl. You need to
make sure that dinner's on the table at five thirty.
Eil's Donald Rumsfield, I'm coming in and cut you. But
after the fact, are they still chill? Are they still friends?
What's that life like now for them?
Speaker 3 (43:22):
I wish it's it's funny, I kind of.
Speaker 6 (43:26):
I talked to somebody who worked for the Obamas about this,
this book I did about the First Ladies, and I
was like, do they email each other?
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Do they go out to lunch? And He's like, this
would be a great novel. It is not reality.
Speaker 6 (43:39):
Like the reality is Michelle Obama and Laura Bush see
each other at events.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
They're friendly, but they're not like they're not.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Hanging out, you know, spirit fingers.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
It's too bad.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
I mean, I think Joe Biden and Michelle Obama developed
like a real friendship, you know, especially after bo Biden
passed away.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
That was real.
Speaker 6 (44:01):
The Obama's and the Bidens, you know, Biden's grandkids or
friends with the Obama's daughters. You've got that connection. And
so they still are friendly and I think they do
lean on each other. And to me, that's what was
really sad about the transition between the Trumps. And the
Biden's was there wasn't like I know, you said, it's
(44:22):
here's what to expect, and it does seem very pro
forma and kind of like humdrum.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
But that's really important when.
Speaker 6 (44:28):
The first Lady gives a tour the White House to
the incoming first lady, because it's it's, you know, part
of the peaceful transfer of power.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
It's part of tradition.
Speaker 6 (44:38):
It's happened since the Truman's and the fact that just
didn't happen, it's terrible. And there were so many awful
things going on that I think that that kind of
like fell under the radar. But Malania didn't invite Joe
Biden to the White House. Malania had no relationship with
any other first ladies, and I think that made it
even harder for her. It's stuff like that that I
(44:59):
think does matter, even though it's the softer side of
politics in the White House. You should be able to
reach back to the people who came before you and
not have this like awful, poisonous relationship with them, which
I think was what happened with Trump and Obama.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, sounds a lot like high school. Have you liked
this on? So we don't talk anymore. We just had
calculus together that one.
Speaker 8 (45:23):
But you start them on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah yeah, and also copy a lot of Michelle Obama's
speeches and stuff.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
But oh that yeah, that's a conversation.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
For another another episode. So before we go, I want
to test both of you all. I want to give
you a little quiz. I want to test your knowledge
on the first Ladies. This is a segment I'm calling
First Ladies. First. We're gonna put some music right there
(45:54):
and make it feel dramatic. Now here's what we're gonna do.
I'm gonna read a fact about a first lady, and
you all are going to tell me who was the
first first lady to accomplish that task? Are you ready?
Speaker 8 (46:07):
I still know that my research went that deep, and
I guess.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
We're gonna find out. Listen, only one of you is
a New York Times bestseller with a book that is
swimming in these waters. And one of you is a
daily show producer who did some thorough research, but for about.
Speaker 8 (46:22):
A week, like a long time ago to a year ago.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
All right, first question, who was the first first lady
to win a Grammy? Just holler it out if you
know it. Either we don't have buzzer, so we don't
have a budget for that.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
I would go with Eleanor Roosevelt.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 8 (46:52):
Ah, okay, okay, I was gonna go with Michelle Obama
make it recently, Michelle Obama's a solid guest Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
In nineteen ninety seven Best Spoken Word Album was for
the audiobook of her bestseller It Takes a Village. Michelle
Obama won one I think about two years ago, and
that was for her memoir Becoming. Next question, who was
the first first lady to seek advice from an astrologer
during the presidency?
Speaker 3 (47:19):
Nancy Reagan. She went to this woman, Joanne Quiggley, and
she actually had.
Speaker 6 (47:24):
A board where she had days that her husband should
travel and should not travel, and she would label them
green was a good day, yellow was iffy, red was bad.
Because after the assassination attempt, she was so terrified that
something would happen to him. She reached out to this.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Astrologer and then she would pill a talker like don't
you leave town next Thursday?
Speaker 6 (47:45):
Ronald in America, she has wouldn't let him go. It
was like not going to happen. It was not on
his schedule. If it was a red day. She controlled
the Gallander.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
But Nancy, nuclear weapons are in there a whole bit.
Why did I sound like Chris Farley? What a terrible
Ronald Reagan? I think that's as good a place as
any to end. That's all the time we have. Thank
you so much today for going beyond the scenes, our
guests Jeff and Kate, thank you so much for going
(48:16):
beyond the scenes with us. Thank you. Listen to The
Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 8 (48:33):
Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by
searching The Daily Show wherever you.
Speaker 7 (48:38):
Get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Watch The Daily Show week nights at.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Eleven ten Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes
anytime on Fairmount Plus.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
This has been a Comedy Central podcast
You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes.
This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and
topics that aired originally on the Daily Show with Trevor Noah.
This is what this podcast is like. All right, So, like,
(00:23):
you ever had a chicken pot pie? And I'm not
talking about a frozen pot pie. I'm talking about one
of them, homemade straight out the oven pop pies. One
of them pot pie is made from somebody in a
good marriage them the best taste in pot pies. And
so you have a pot pie and it's good, but
you never know whether or not there's crust on the
bottom of the pot pie dish. Right, That's what this
(00:45):
podcast is. It's surprised it's crust on the bottom too,
because everybody likes mow crust. And that's what this podcast is.
It's the more crust of the Daily Show universe. I'm
Roy Wood Jr. And in honor of women's history, we're
taking a look at the powerful and influential roles that
the first ladies have played throughout history. Let's roll to
(01:08):
clip the first Lady.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's not a job that's actually in the Constitution, but
that's just because in seventeen eighty seven, women hadn't been
invented yet. And even though first Lady is not an
official role, they've been important figures in the country from
the very beginning. Maybe the most fascinating thing about first
ladies is that even though no one votes for them
and they kind of make up the job as they go,
(01:32):
just by virtue of being married to the president, they
can end up having a lot more power than many
elected officials. The first Lady is the most powerful woman
in the country because she has the ear first.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Thing in the morning and last thing at night.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Of the most powerful man in the country.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Going back to the very first first Lady, Martha Washington
and the second one, Abigail Adams, both of them were
politically involved. They were involved in cabinet decisions, They were
involved in campaign These women were political partners.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Nancy Reagan was pulling a lot of the strings, calling
many of the shots. From President Ronald Reagan's first campaign
for the White House back in nineteen eighty to his
Cold War ending triumph in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Hillary Clinton became more involved, obviously in policymaking than any
first lady before her.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
She had an office in the West wing.
Speaker 6 (02:19):
Bill Clinton even ran on the slogan buy one, get
one free.
Speaker 7 (02:22):
In nineteen nineteen, Edith Wilson was unofficially running the country
after her husband Woodrow suffered a stroke.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Today, I'm joined by Daily Show producer and very sad
Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan because Brady retired, Jeff Gusso, Jeff,
welcome to the show. How you been?
Speaker 8 (02:40):
I'm good man? How you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Roy? Look, it's Brady's been going about a month.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Man.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
It's okay, man. You got to get past it, you know.
Speaker 8 (02:47):
I'm sure the bucks looks like again next year.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So we're also joined by CNN contributor and New York
Times best selling author of the book First Women, The
Grace and Power of America's First Ladies and the Residents,
Kate Anderson Brower. Thank you for joining us and going
beyond the scenes with us today. How are you?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I'm great? Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm excited the elegance. You hear that, Jeff, you hear
the elegance. This is gonna be a good ass conversation. So, Jeff,
before I get to you, ladies, first, Kate, help us
for the people who don't know myself included help us
understand the role of the first lady. You know, it's
it's unpaid first and foremot we want to talk about
(03:33):
some inequity. It's an unelected role. There really doesn't seem
to be a rule book on what you can and
can't or should and shouldn't do. But yet everybody has
an opinion on what a first lady should or shouldn't
be doing. So what are some of the expectations of
the role.
Speaker 6 (03:50):
Well, it's a very archaic, old fashioned title, right, you know.
Jackie Kennedy said that she never wanted to be called
first lady. It sounded like a saddle horse. She said,
it was like a demeaning name. It's very arcane because
people don't understand it, and even years of studying it myself,
I've found it to be completely dependent on the person
(04:12):
who has the position. One person wrote to Betty Ford,
who was first Lady in the seventies, and said, you're
constitutionally required to be perfect.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I think that kind of sums it up.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
They are supposed to be ideal wives and mothers, the
symbol of what it is to be an American woman,
juggling everything and each of them fails in their own way,
and I think they feel as though, after a little
bit of time in the position, that they just have
to make it their own and do what they want
(04:44):
with it, because, as Rosalind Carter said, no matter what,
you're going to be criticized. And you know, there's a
lot of sexism obviously and in the world still, and
I think that there's a sense that each woman is
held up to these very unfairpecs, and so they have
to make the role their own. And there's nothing in
the constitution that describes what they have to do, so
(05:05):
they can do as little like Milania Trump, for instance,
or as much like eleanor Roosevelt or Hillary Clinton or
Michelle Obama, these women that really took the role incredibly seriously.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
So it just depends on each woman.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, because you know Michelle Obama, you know she it
was the school Lunch initiative, you know, healthier nutrition, you know,
the Let's Move program. You know, you look at everything
that Betty Fortt was doing with regards to you know,
just being vocal about women's issues. We don't have to
talk about Nancy Reagan and just say no, we know
the history of that, how do some of the expectations
(05:41):
of the first lady play into some of the gender
norms and gender roles that I believe a lot of
women are trying to break out of, or at least
trying to change what the base level expectations are of
a first seight, because you know, they're responsible for a
lot of the domestic duties in the white not literally
cleaning and cooking, but organizing the social events and oh,
(06:04):
you got to decorate the tree, and we have to
make sure everything is set for dinner. Like how much
of those expectations are part of the role.
Speaker 6 (06:11):
I mean, one of the funniest things that happened during
the Trump administration was when Milania, you know there, was
caught talking to a friend on the phone and saying
something about how she just didn't want to deal with
the stupid Christmas decorations. And I think everyone was like
agast at that because that's what the job is, and
it just looked bad too.
Speaker 7 (06:31):
They say, I'm more uncompleted.
Speaker 8 (06:34):
I'm the same like him.
Speaker 9 (06:35):
I support him. I don't say enough, I don't do
enough where I am I put I'm working like a ass.
I know Christmas stuff that you know who gives a
about Christmas stuff and the curation.
Speaker 6 (06:48):
But I need to do it right.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
But I mean, look at Michelle Obama.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
She was making you know, almost three hundred thousand dollars
at the University of Chicago Medical Center in their communications office.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
She went to Harvard and.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
She's incredibly well educated, and yet her role was in
many ways to just take care of the daughters.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 6 (07:08):
The mother in chief role that Michelle Obama took up
was really powerful, especially for you know, a black woman.
I thought that that was really important for her to
make this point that she was going to focus on
her daughters, and there was nothing wrong with that. I
think that you have to be able to just accept
women doing as much or as little as they want.
(07:29):
Then you see Hillary Clinton, who had an office in
the West Wing and she always regretted having that office
because she realized that she overstepped that the American people
were not ready for it. And I think that's unfortunate.
Right that we have a moved beyond that, and I
think it's going to take a first gentleman, if that's
what we call him, to be okay with a woman
(07:51):
doing as much or as little as she as she wants.
I mean, if Bill Clinton were first gentleman, I think
that no one would be expecting him to be, you know, beig.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Cookies, arranging the Christmas decoration and redesigning the White House lawn.
That's why, Jeff, that's why I was like, in a
weird way during the last election, I was kind of
pulling for Corey Booker just because I wanted the chaos
of an unmarried man in the White House, Like, who's
gonna do what if? Like, granted he's in a relationship
(08:23):
with Rosario Dawson at the time, but you know, are
you still a first lady if your first girlfriend? Like
I wanted chaos? Dude, what was like the main inspiration
for putting this piece together? And just talk to us
a little bit about the ideation of that at the
Daily Show.
Speaker 8 (08:37):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it was about November twenty twenty,
the election, I think had just happened, and we were
sort of like looking at like all the changes that
were about to happen with Joe Biden and doctor Joe
Biden coming in in January, and I think we were
trying to like, you know, we just wanted to focus on,
like what is this role? What is this handoff between
Milania Trump to Joe Biden? And you know, what is
the history? What are the expectations? Four years of Donald
(08:59):
Trump and Milinia Trump had been so chaotic and like,
was what Malinnia Trump did normal?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Was it not normal?
Speaker 8 (09:05):
What is expected of Joe Biden? So we wanted to
honor these ladies, but we also wanted to like get
the crux of like, you know, how the job can
be good and how the job can be bad. You know,
give it, you know, give people full sense of it,
you know, which is difficult in ten minutes, but you know,
that was the big idea of what we were trying
to get to.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It's interesting because you know, it's a role where, you know,
traditionally they all have to champion some sort of social calls,
you know, and you know it, and that's been the
traditional Traditionally, you have to have something that you really
give a lot of extra, give a damn about, and
you have to roll out a plan about that to
the American people over the next four years and hopefully
(09:43):
with no scandals messing it up in the meantime. But
I feel like the role has evolved over the years.
What are some of the ways that first ladies just
in the research that you've seen, Jeff, what are some
of the ways that the first ladies have kind of
made this role their own? And I will love to
hear from you as well on that, Kate.
Speaker 8 (10:02):
When we were developing the peace chronologically, when we had
like eleanor Roosevelt, like that was a big one that
like there was so much to unpack and we felt
like that was really like where it changed, where it
was like more front where you could be visibly like, uh,
you know, pushing for these causes and you know, advocating
on beliefs. Each one made it their own, and so
like the connecting line through them all was like they
(10:23):
each had their cause like that they would believe in.
They were supporting their their husbands and the presidents, but
they were also like advocating for like women's issues and
social causes that like would help further you know generations.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
From the earliest days, America's first ladies were referred to
as Lady Presidentiists or Republican Queen.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
The term first Lady didn't come into use really until
Dolly Madison's time.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The fourth First Lady pioneered the practice of championing social causes.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
She helped orphan children and supported women's.
Speaker 7 (10:55):
Rights, And it said that at missus Madison's funeral, President
Zach Taylor eulogized her as the country's first Lady, the
first time that title was ever used.
Speaker 6 (11:07):
I was just thinking about what you were saying Roy earlier,
about if Corey Booker had been elected, and I think
his mother or his sister or niece or someone would
have stepped in to take over the role, because there's
just no way that they would let that go, like
somebody needs to.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Fill in, And we saw Thomas Jefferson.
Speaker 10 (11:28):
Yes you need a woman, And I still don't know why,
but we feel the need to have this position, and
like James Buchanan was a bachelor and his niece, Harriet Lane,
you know, took over this going back in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But like the idea that we would elect.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
An unmarried person as president, I think is such an
interesting question because we attached so much, like you know,
meaning to being married and having a family, and like
how that would make you responsible. And I just I
feel like we haven't moved far enough away from.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Those really old fashioned ideas.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
No the First Lady is arguably one of the most
important advisors to the president. I don't believe that it
was a coincidence that, you know, you know, Reagan ran
a big deal on having a war on drugs and
then Nancy had just say, no, how much of a
role or how much influence does the First Lady have?
(12:25):
Like in what ways her First Lady's impacted policy in
this country?
Speaker 6 (12:29):
I mean, a very recent example is Michelle Obama with
her Let's Move campaign that you mentioned earlier about you know,
having healthy lunches and ketchup doesn't count as a vegetable
in school lunches and all of that. She was really
China continue make it like a very healthy, you know
environment for kids who sometimes you know, hot lunch is
(12:53):
like their only meal of the day for some kids
in this country, which is just like terrible. And so
she really wanted to make sure they had new, tricious food.
And Matt dovetailed with the Let's Move campaign, which was
about exercise, and with her husband's childcare nutrition bill that
they were trying to get through Congress, and so she
would make calls to senators and members of Congress trying
(13:15):
to push that bill through and that's a real example
of a first lady getting involved in policy.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Hillary Clinton wanted Ruth.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court and let her husband
know that she was the right pick. So there are actual,
real ways that they're getting involved. And they call it
pillow talk, which I still think is kind of silly,
but the idea that at night, this is the last
person they're the president's presumably going to be seeing, so
they can influence policy. But like you mentioned Betty Ford,
(13:44):
and I think a lot of people know about what
she did to talk about drug and alcohol addiction, but
that happened after she was in office, like that, the
Betty Ford Center was years later, And so I think
they have this tremendous power for the rest of their
lives if they choose to use it.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So we all know that Nancy Reagan was one of
the people that got you know, her husband to fire
Donald Reagan, who was then his chief of staff. And
then this one doesn't necessarily compare the same because it
was one hundred years ago, but we also know that,
you know, I think it was it was it Woodrow
Wilson that I have the stroke and Edith, and Edith
(14:24):
was running the country after her husband, like not intern
official capacity, but unofficially she would, you know, Woodrow whispering,
this is what you need to tell him to do,
and then she would go password to the vice president.
Does that support system make the president stronger or is
it like where's the line of hey, here's what you
should do versus he let me do my job.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
I mean, that's such a good question when you bring
up Edith and Nancy, those are two first ladies. The
reasons why they were so powerful is they decided who
could see their husbands, right Like Nancy Reagan decided who
would be chief of staff. She decided even when they
were putting the cabinet together, who should be in the cabinet.
And then Edith Wilson was keeping people away from her
husband when he was sick. So it's the idea of
(15:07):
who's controlling the people who can get into the oval
office or have the president's here. So I think that
that's where the power lies in the position of first lady,
is being that person who can control people who have
access to their husband. And I think a lot of
people would say first ladies shouldn't have any control, right
because they're not elected.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I would argue that most first ladies that have kind
of been doing the pillow talk has been for the
better of the country, not necessarily for the detriment. We
don't know if Milania ever slept in the sing be
but Trump after maybe the first year. But in terms
of understanding just how influential this role is. Why do
women have to live in the shadows and be unpaid
(15:52):
in that regard? If you have a stroke and I'm
the middle man between you and the chief of staff
when the bombs again, this is back in the night
nineteen hundreds, Prohibition, War War one was around the corner.
Should I get a little bit of money for being
a first lady?
Speaker 6 (16:08):
It is ridiculous, And that's what doctor Biden is trying
to do. I think by having a job, by being
paid for that job. She's teaching, of course, and she
had taught her entire life. The only time she took
a break was during the campaign. And I think that
it's important that women be able to continue their jobs.
And Laura Bush, it's not a partisan thing either.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Laura Bush said the same thing.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
She said, first ladies should be, you know, given the
opportunity to pursue whatever career they had. I mean, you
cannot expect Hillary Clinton to just sit idly by. And
I think I think that being paid for being First
Lady is different than being paid for continuing your job
as a teacher, which is outside you know, the role.
(16:54):
I think that's easier to convince people it's.
Speaker 8 (16:57):
Okay, especially like as much work, like you know, still
expectations of like stuff doing at the White House, but
like you know, Jill Biden has been traveling all over
you know, visiting you know, tornado victims and things like that.
So like there's still just a lot of work as
well that they are doing and still expected to do
as well, and like to not get paid for that,
but also have an office that like with a staff
that reports to them. Like, why is the boss not paid?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, you're paid for prestige and the book deal. After
you leave office this day, you get faith. Jeff, what
what didn't make it into the piece? Because that's the
thing I'm always curious about you all right, what argument
did y'all have when this piece was thirteen minutes and
you knew you had to chop it down to ten?
Speaker 8 (17:42):
Yeah, I mean, you know, every woman that's been a
first lady has. Like you know, there's documentaries about them,
there's books about them, Like there's hundreds of sources on them,
and stories to tell, and like it's very difficult to
like narrow it down. And like right off the top,
Dolly Madison was where we sort of started this piece,
and like, you know, one of the stories that was
interesting but we just didn't have time for it was
like her saving like all these you know, government documents
(18:04):
in the Washington portrait when the British were storming of
the White House, and it was just like a fascinating story,
but like we just didn't have the time to like
explain that story. Eleanor Roosevelt we spent one entire role on.
And there was like two stories that like I thought
were really interesting but we just didn't have room for.
One was that, like you know, she was very a
big advocate for the anti lynching legislation and the KKK
(18:25):
put it like a bounty on her. And then she
also would hold women only press conferences. A lot of
newspapers that only had men reporters would have to either
hire women reporters or you know, get women to report
on these stories and to like it's saved with these
jobs and like was a real force for like having
women enter into journalism. And so you know, you're condensing
all this history into like you know, it's a thirteen
(18:46):
minute piece, and like the sound bites that we use
are like a minute each roughly, so you know, trying
to tell eleanor Roosevelt's entire story and a minute is impossible.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
After the break, I want to get into now that
we know the role in the expectations of the first Lady,
the criticism and the haters who love or talk that shit. Kate,
I want you to break down all the shit talking
and hating and unrealistic expectations that first ladies go through.
It's Women's History Month. We are going beyond the scenes
(19:19):
on the history of the First Lady and also first Dude.
We'll talk about him a little later, the first Gentleman.
Gentle I think you should be due first Dude. No
y'all disagree, Okay, that's right. We have the scenes when
we come back. Kate, we were talking in the previous
(19:40):
break about the expectations and whether or not some women
want to deal with the stress of that and Milania
being you know, caught off the what she thought was
off the record, complaining about some of the stuff, which
also I didn't Jeff, did you all come across this
in your research that if Milania didn't want to be
first Lady, Ivanka was gonna stay at the end like
(20:00):
a subject like first of a daughter lady.
Speaker 8 (20:04):
Do you remember that story, Like Malani was going to
stay in New York if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, she wasn't going to go to the White House.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
And that lasted for what a few months before they
decided to move down there because like security was an
issue and like they just decided to to make it easier.
Maybe I must remember that. I think that was, but yeah,
it was, Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
And Michelle Obama and some of the other first Ladies
were like jealous of Milania for doing that, because Milania,
like the expectation was you move to the White House
when your husband moves into the residence.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
And she just flipped the script and didn't do it.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
And I think that that these other women were like,
what I could have done the same thing, Like none
of them really wanted to move in right away. So
in a way, that was one of the more interesting things.
And I think it kind of great thing. Well, you know,
she did a lot of terrible things I think as
source lady, but one of the good things was not
(20:58):
doing what we all expected her to do all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And that brings me to the scrutiny because let's let's
be real, none of these women asked for this role.
They just married a dude and then one day the
dude was like, Hey, I want to be in charge
of everything. I'm gonna need you to bake cookies and
pet the dog and take nice photos. And if you
don't move a certain way within that, within that construct,
(21:25):
you get scrutiny from the press, social media. Now twenty
four hour news cycle hasn't helped at all. How do
the first ladies, like, how do they how do they
handle that constant scrutiny? And number one, how you keep
from going crazy? Kate? How do you keep from going crazy?
Especially if you Malani, you know, Milania didn't think he
was gonna win. I'm gonna be president? That this nice
(21:48):
don't know where's money? Give me?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
How did the first ladies? How do they deal with
that scrutiny? You know and try and keep their head
on straight.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
You look at what happened to Ready Ford in the
White House. She got addicted to painkillers and alcohol. I mean,
I think a lot of them dealt with it in
really unhealthy ways.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I think it's really hard for them to manage it.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Some of them reach out to each other, like Michelle
Obama and Laura Bush talked occasionally. One of the coolest
parts of this First Lady's documentary on CNN is when
they show David Axelrod Obama's advisor, with Michelle Obama and
it's during the campaign, and she's like, I don't understand
(22:32):
in two thousand and eight why people think that I'm
angry and not like approachable. And he just played this
video of her speech with the sound off, and he's like,
look at your facial expressions, Look how you come across.
And she was like, she was just stunned because that's
not how she saw herself. That's not how people who
(22:53):
knew her saw her.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
I called her in to show her what people were seeing,
and I earned the sound down and just let her
see herself.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
In a country, in a world based.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
She got it immediately. She was getting all of this.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
You know, remember when she said the phrase and I'm
gonna butcher it, but it's about you know, I'm proud
of my country for the first time, and it wasn't
quite that harshly said, but that was seized upon by
the right and made into this huge, huge issue.
Speaker 9 (23:34):
Hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback.
And let me tell you something, for the first time
in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country,
and not just because Barack is done well, but because
I think people are hungry for change.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
As the first black first lady, she just had tremendous
pressure and I think she leans on her good friends
like Valerie Jared in the White How she you know,
kept a really tight group of women around her, people
she had known forever from Chicago.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Her mom lived with them, which helped a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That probably helped im mentally.
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Yeah, for the Michelle Obama criticism, you know, one of
the pieces in the discoveryes like we remember that, Like
she was criticized for wearing shorts, you know, just like
regular shorts. There's photos that were getting off a planet.
I think they were going to Hawaii maybe for like
one of the winter vacations, and like there was like
just outrage on conservative media about like is it acceptable
for Michelle Obama to be wearing shorts and that?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So then to that point, Jeff, in your research, and
I'm sure this is probably a lot more recent, let's
just say, from Clinton onward, did you see a double standard?
Like just in watching the footage as you're just going
through hours and hours of footage, is their double standard?
And how liberal versus conservative media, Like, let's just go
with Fox News. If Michelle Obama can't wear shorts, Barack
(24:57):
can't wear a tan suit? Bla on a jacket then
on the back it said fuck all of y'all something.
Let me ask K Kate, is that what did I say?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I don't think K exactly say that. I really I don't.
I really don't care, do you?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (25:13):
It was like a thousand dollars jacket too, right, Like
it was like a like a really expensive jacket.
Speaker 6 (25:17):
It was a really No, it was like a forty
dollars jacket, which made it even weirder because she normally
wore fifty thousand dollars jackets.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
So it made no sense.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
But is there is there a double standard Jeff? And
how the media chooses to scrutinize or uplift first ladies.
Speaker 8 (25:34):
Now, yeah, I mean I think everyone goes to their
home side and starts advocating and tearing down the other
side because that's what's expected. You know, we were talking
earlierbout the Michelle Obama like Let's move campaign and like
you know, growing a garden and the White House and
like conservative media didn't like that, Like they attacked her
for encouraging kids deep vegetables. So it's you know, like
carrots are a cultural worn thing. Now there was a
(25:56):
whole thing of like mockery of like calling doctor Jill Biden,
doctor Jill Biden like a degree she had earned, and
it was like a cycle of news of we're not
going to call her doctor. She's not an actual doctor.
If you're dying in the street, she's not going to
operate on you right there, So therefore she's not a doctor.
And you know the same thing, like anything Malanie did
would be defended. Wearing the jacket was fine, you know,
no criticism.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Kate, Why is there such scrutiny around what a first
lady like? Historically it's always been a thing like I
remember my mother and to this day, my mom talks
about I want elbow length gloves like Jackie o Nasis.
That's all like, I don't know what it is, but
(26:37):
for her there is a regalness, there's an elegance that
she associates with the first leader, and I too can
be as elegant and grand as Jackie on nisis all
the way down to oh my god, Michelle Obama showed
her arms. Could you believe she out there showing arms?
(26:57):
She looked like a baby mama. What is with the
fascination and the scrutiny of what first ladies choose to wear?
Speaker 8 (27:06):
You know?
Speaker 6 (27:07):
I think that And it's interesting because that Jackie Kennedy
is like the famous Chanelle suits that she would wear,
the pillbox hat that was all made in America because
she got criticized for wearing foreign designers, so she had
knockoffs made in the US of these fancy gowns, and
then she was the first first lady to bring in
her you know, own basically in house stylist. I think
(27:31):
that the thing with Michelle Obama's arms was really strange
to me because there was such a fascination with them
also and just how like, you know, I think she
started a whole craze of women wanting to look like
her too, because she is so in shape, right, and
we don't see first ladies normally they're a bit dowdier
like Barbara Bush, right, and they look more like your grandma,
(27:53):
And so I think that in a way. You know,
there was also a lot of positives about the arms,
At least to me, I thought her arms were amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Dated style staples.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I would argue she did like the sleeveless sheaths that
she wore.
Speaker 6 (28:07):
But to your question about why it matters, I think
it's because they can't really say anything, Like they can't
come out Laura Bush is pro choice, she can't come
out and say that her husband's pro life. So they
can't say anything substantive. So the only way they can
be heard is through these choices of what they're wearing.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Do you think Hillary's pant suit plays into that same thing,
because I mean, she ran for office while she was
still First Lady, So it was almost like a statement
in saying like, no, I'm here to handle y'all. Respect suits,
as that's what people wear when you think they're here
to handle business. So I'm gonna wear a pantsuit, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
I think so.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
I think absolutely, but I think there's a risk of
weighing in, like reading into it too much. Like Millennia
wore white at the State of the Union one year,
and we were all thinking, oh, is she a suffrage
just now?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Is this you know, white is the color of the
suffrage movement, and you.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Know, is she is this a hidden message to her
husband when really we see that was just what democrats.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I think we're secretly hoping for with Milania.
Speaker 6 (29:08):
I think there was a lot of hope that she
was this prisoner in the White House, and in reality
she was really one hundred percent behind him on every issue.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Tough as nails. I mean, she's not some victim.
Speaker 6 (29:21):
And I think we see that now that she's doing
all this stuff with selling NFTs and you know, kind
of making money off of the position in a way
we have never seen before, because you know, usually you
donate your gowns to the Smithsonian so the Americans can
see it and you know it's part of American history,
and not selling it to the highest bidder.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
You've said it at an ouption for a quarter of
a million dollars and then no one bids on it,
didn't they take it off the market?
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Well depressing that, Jeff, What does the scrutiny say though
about gender expectations?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
You know, like you cannot show your arms, you cannot
show too much leg even though we're on to Hawaii
where you will wear a bikini, wait until you are
alone in private to put on the bikini. And what
happens you know when a first lady strays away from
that ideal?
Speaker 8 (30:10):
It'll be interesting to see, like we were talking earlier
about like you know, what happens when it's the first gentleman,
Like are those like are those same criticisms like if
there's you know, can a first gentleman show too much skin?
Can you know? Or are they going to be criticized for
what clothes they wear? Uh? You know, like you just
put it in that context, like I don't think that
it's not gonna happen. Exactly, it's not gonna happen. So
(30:32):
it's it you know that right there shows like the
delicate like you know, you know, high wire, you know,
walk that these these women have to do to like
not offend on every little thing that like someone will
take offense to and like one person taking offense to
you know, showing arms or legs or wearing the wrong hat.
It turns into a news cycle for days and weeks,
(30:53):
and then it becomes a thing that people are questioning
and get asked about.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Okay, how much does feminism play into what's happened in
the last twenty years as well? And some of the
choices that first ladies make that push against the societal
expect the traditional societal expectations of the first lady.
Speaker 6 (31:10):
I mean, the point that Jeff was making is that
a man in this position.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Wouldn't be scrutinized because he wore.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Shorts at all, and the fact that a woman would
shows that we haven't really made very.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Much headway, you know.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
And the fact that you know, I don't I mean,
Michelle Obama probably I don't think she could have continued
her career as a lawyer, just because there probably are
conflicts of interest and all of that. But you know
the fact that doctor Biden is getting criticized for using
the doctor title, it's just such a sign that, you know,
we haven't made the strides in the White House that
(31:47):
we have. Outside of the White House. I think there's
been more progress. I mean, listen, women still don't get
paid the same as men. For the same work. So
I don't think we've made enough strides. But I think
for some reason, this r it's just it's ingrained in
our conscience because it's the closest thing we have to
the royal family, and so I feel like we treat
(32:08):
them kind of like queens, you know, instead of professional women.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
And I don't know how we get out of that.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, because those are our two royal families, the White
House and the Kardashians.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
That's the sad statements.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, they both influence fashion. Before we go to the break, Jeff,
how do you unpack all of this stuff and figure out, like,
how do y'all zero in on what's funny? Because the
balance at the show is always what do you need
to know? Versus what would be entertaining? So how did
(32:46):
you all navigate trying to put jokes in the middle
of Oh yeah, she's criticized, probably racially motivate, Oh yeah,
Milania might not move to Washington, d C. How do
y'all navigate infusing humor into a historical segment?
Speaker 8 (33:04):
You know, sometimes we'll just give a bucket to some
of the writers and be like, well, we could end
on this story, we could end on that story. We'll
give them three different stories and let them choose which
one they think they have the best opportunity to make
a joke off of. You know, it's not always necessarily
finding the funniest footage, although that's always you know, it's
always a goal. And so like, you know, we came
across the footage of like Best Truman, you know, and
she was, you know, she's christening these planes. We use
(33:27):
this you know story in the piece, these Christie's these
planes and she's given a champagne bottle that's not scarred,
like it's not like cracked, so like you know, it
doesn't break. The footage is like this nineteen forties newsreel,
so it's like the you know at the airfield there's
you know drama. Yeah, it takes exactly and you see
the footage and they just you know, she's whacking it
and whacking it over and over and over again, and
(33:49):
like you just hear these studs and you feel so
bad for this woman because it's just like that, you
hear the audience laughter, and like the narrator's telling everything
that's going on, and like it has to happen like
half a dozen dozen times I we had been able
to like just play the entire thing in its entirety,
because like it just builds and the drama builds, and
like you just hear it and you just feel so
bad at a certain point, but you know, going on.
Speaker 6 (34:10):
I had never seen that before. Actually I thought that
was really fun. And you feel so bad for her, you.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Really do, and you're like, oh bad, Like I can't
imagine like what that if that had happened today, how
like crazy the news would have been of like, you know,
Jill Biden not able to break a champagne bottle? What
does that say about Democrats?
Speaker 1 (34:30):
It's like kind of feigned walking out of that sprinter
during the election, Oh she got to pass it out?
Is that the president.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Look at Jill Biden going up on the stage.
Speaker 6 (34:40):
I loved that when she went up on the stage
during the campaign and like went and like defended our
husband against some protesters, and like you see stuff like
that and you see who they are. You just see
them as human beings, and we don't get to see
that enough.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I think for first ladies.
Speaker 8 (34:55):
Yeah, they definitely have to mask who they really are
to like be this persona that America will accept Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
So then right there, that's a great place to go
to break because I want on the other side of
the break as we wrap up here, I want to
find out from both of you what you think deems
a first lady successful. Just just just marinate on that,
and we got to talk about first dude and what's
the role of first dude because we have a chance now, Jeff,
(35:23):
you and I to establish what the baseline rules will
be first dude outfits and his role in the White House.
This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Kate.
I'll start with you because you have a New York
Times bestseller about a lot of the first ladies that
occupy this space. Jeff, I don't think you have a
(35:43):
best do you?
Speaker 8 (35:44):
I do not no books?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Okay, So then Kate, I will start with you what
makes a first lady successful? Because like I feel like
with the role of president, it's not really like there's
the presidency and then there's the twenty twenty year after
glow when we look at the policies and how they
actually matriculated or not. And I feel like a president's
(36:09):
judged twice in a way, or you can, you know,
pull a bush and do a revision it's history and
sit next to Michelle Obama and give a little pieces
of candy and everybody forgets it about yeah that stuff.
But for the role of first lady, you know what
deems a first lady successful? And what do you think
of our current first lady, doctor Jill Biden.
Speaker 6 (36:31):
Well, we've been talking about how the role has changed
or not, and how old fashioned it is and how
inherently gendered it is. I think that each first lady
who moves it forward just moves the ball forward.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
It's going to be it takes a long time to
get there.
Speaker 6 (36:50):
But I think, you know, Michelle Obama, first Black first lady,
just simply by being there, she did so much and
then by doing so much good Michelle Obama had a
lot of assets that other first ladies don't have. She's
able to, like, be very relatable and warm, and I
think some people like Milania are just not able to
(37:12):
do that. But I think that moves the ball for it.
I think Hillary Clinton did by having that West Wing
office that she regretted by becoming a senator and you know,
a candidate for president and the first woman to win
the nomination was huge, but it's just moving the ball,
you know, down the field. I don't know my sports
analogies that well, but like we're you know, each each
(37:34):
one is doing little like you know, inch by inch,
And I think doctor Biden is the best recent example
of that, because just by having a job is so
like crazy that we think that's amazing, but it is
because no one's done it. Before she gets paid, she
leaves the White House, she goes to her job. That's
(37:55):
amazing that she's done that, And a lot of people
don't like it. But people were worried that she wouldn't
be able to balance everything. And I think that the
main problem she has is, you know, during the pandemic,
is just having the ability to do the traditional things
that we expect, like you know, she doesn't really have.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Like one.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Set platform, you know.
Speaker 6 (38:17):
But neither did Melania because be Best just didn't really
count to me because it just was way too broad
and we don't know what it meant. And like doctor Biden,
I don't think I don't think she has one thing
that she's latched onto yet. And and I know from
you know, having talked to her and people around her
that because it's because of the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Jeff, we have a second gentleman in the White House
right now, and you know, number one, what do we
think the role of it? Because I think it's an
interesting opportunity if we're talking about gender dynamics and the
role of a man than the house as it relates
(39:01):
to supporting his woman, because I believe that what's going
on between Kamala Harris and her husband, there are a
lot of households like that in America where the woman
is the mover and the shaker and she's the one
kind of more in the forefront. What do you think
the role of first gentleman will look like, you know,
as we go forward, because we are having more women
(39:22):
in politics, this is not uncommon, so Kamala is not
going to be the last of this iteration of the
working the working woman politician being at the forefront and
the man being there and being supportive. What do you
think the first gentleman should do?
Speaker 9 (39:37):
Like?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
What? What? What are the expectations?
Speaker 8 (39:39):
Yeah, I think it will be really interesting to watch
because it's like, you know, with the with the responsibilities
that are you know, handed off to first ladies right now,
Like will they end up having to like decorate the
Christmas trees, Like is that a responsibility? And if they are,
are is it going to be like traditional where like
they're on a ladder, you know, not you know, hammering
up the Christmas lights? Like is that is it going
to be like that traditional? Like the guy is going
(40:00):
to be you know, hanging out the you know, mowing
the lawn, you know, the front lawn. Like it'll be
interesting to say, see like.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
How God the first gentleman, the first gentleman dug him
half is now going to start up the official Congressional
hedge trimmer.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
You know, they'll be doing the engine work on the
on the beast right, you know, the limos like so
let's be in the garage, like you know, if they're
if there are expectations to do, like what the gender
defined roles are, then like you know, those are the
things that you know, we you know, seeing that role.
So I hope that like if when that happens, that
like you know, when it goes starts going back and
forth between having a first gentleman and a first lady,
(40:41):
when it goes back to being a first lady, that
like a lot of those roles, those expectations are gone
and like first ladies and women can do whatever they want,
and like there isn't that gender, you know, defined roles anymore.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Yeah. I think another part of it as well, Kate, is,
you know, when once we see a woman in office
who has children and the role that the first gentleman
plays in the expectations of parenting and fatherhood. I think
that's probably something that'll probably be a bigger part of
(41:13):
the conversation as we see more and more women elected
into higher and higher positions in this country.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
I think so.
Speaker 6 (41:19):
And I think, you know, to Jeff's point about Doug
m Hoff, like the idea that you know, we're actually
not seeing him expected to play those male like that.
You know, we're not expecting him to be this tough,
macho guy. Like he's out there. He's very warm and
fuzzy and kind of he's the consoler in the dynamic,
(41:43):
right Kamala Harris is getting business done and she's the
powerful person and right now in their relationship, and he
seems okay with that. You know, he's teaching law at Georgetown,
he was a corporate lawyer right in California, and he's
put that you know, that's taken the back seat. And
now he's out there, you know, visiting people getting COVID
(42:04):
shots and consoling. Recently, he console the kid who was
crying because they were afraid about the COVID shot. Like
he's doing the stuff that we expect women to do.
And I think that that's what is so great about him,
is that he's just secure enough whatever in his manhood
or whatever that you know, let's move forward where they
(42:25):
don't have to be tough. He can be you know, himself.
And I think I think that's a great thing about
that dynamic. And I don't know why we're not talking
more about it, Like, to me, that's amazing that we
have a second gentleman and it doesn't get that much
press attention.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
And I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
What is the relationship between the first Ladies, you know,
because it's a very unique shared experience that like literally
less than fifty people can honestly say that they've done,
Like there is there a First Ladies group chat. I know,
you said Laura and Michelle, Laura Bush and Michelle Obama.
You know, they talked a little bit while Michelle was
(43:04):
in office, But I look at that as more of
a transitional Here's what to expect. Girl. You need to
make sure that dinner's on the table at five thirty.
Eil's Donald Rumsfield, I'm coming in and cut you. But
after the fact, are they still chill? Are they still friends?
What's that life like now for them?
Speaker 3 (43:22):
I wish it's it's funny, I kind of.
Speaker 6 (43:26):
I talked to somebody who worked for the Obamas about this,
this book I did about the First Ladies, and I
was like, do they email each other?
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Do they go out to lunch? And He's like, this
would be a great novel. It is not reality.
Speaker 6 (43:39):
Like the reality is Michelle Obama and Laura Bush see
each other at events.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
They're friendly, but they're not like they're not.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Hanging out, you know, spirit fingers.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
It's too bad.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
I mean, I think Joe Biden and Michelle Obama developed
like a real friendship, you know, especially after bo Biden
passed away.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
That was real.
Speaker 6 (44:01):
The Obama's and the Bidens, you know, Biden's grandkids or
friends with the Obama's daughters. You've got that connection. And
so they still are friendly and I think they do
lean on each other. And to me, that's what was
really sad about the transition between the Trumps. And the
Biden's was there wasn't like I know, you said, it's
(44:22):
here's what to expect, and it does seem very pro
forma and kind of like humdrum.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
But that's really important when.
Speaker 6 (44:28):
The first Lady gives a tour the White House to
the incoming first lady, because it's it's, you know, part
of the peaceful transfer of power.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
It's part of tradition.
Speaker 6 (44:38):
It's happened since the Truman's and the fact that just
didn't happen, it's terrible. And there were so many awful
things going on that I think that that kind of
like fell under the radar. But Malania didn't invite Joe
Biden to the White House. Malania had no relationship with
any other first ladies, and I think that made it
even harder for her. It's stuff like that that I
(44:59):
think does matter, even though it's the softer side of
politics in the White House. You should be able to
reach back to the people who came before you and
not have this like awful, poisonous relationship with them, which
I think was what happened with Trump and Obama.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, sounds a lot like high school. Have you liked
this on? So we don't talk anymore. We just had
calculus together that one.
Speaker 8 (45:23):
But you start them on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah yeah, and also copy a lot of Michelle Obama's
speeches and stuff.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
But oh that yeah, that's a conversation.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
For another another episode. So before we go, I want
to test both of you all. I want to give
you a little quiz. I want to test your knowledge
on the first Ladies. This is a segment I'm calling
First Ladies. First. We're gonna put some music right there
(45:54):
and make it feel dramatic. Now here's what we're gonna do.
I'm gonna read a fact about a first lady, and
you all are going to tell me who was the
first first lady to accomplish that task? Are you ready?
Speaker 8 (46:07):
I still know that my research went that deep, and
I guess.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
We're gonna find out. Listen, only one of you is
a New York Times bestseller with a book that is
swimming in these waters. And one of you is a
daily show producer who did some thorough research, but for about.
Speaker 8 (46:22):
A week, like a long time ago to a year ago.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
All right, first question, who was the first first lady
to win a Grammy? Just holler it out if you
know it. Either we don't have buzzer, so we don't
have a budget for that.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
I would go with Eleanor Roosevelt.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 8 (46:52):
Ah, okay, okay, I was gonna go with Michelle Obama
make it recently, Michelle Obama's a solid guest Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
In nineteen ninety seven Best Spoken Word Album was for
the audiobook of her bestseller It Takes a Village. Michelle
Obama won one I think about two years ago, and
that was for her memoir Becoming. Next question, who was
the first first lady to seek advice from an astrologer
during the presidency?
Speaker 3 (47:19):
Nancy Reagan. She went to this woman, Joanne Quiggley, and
she actually had.
Speaker 6 (47:24):
A board where she had days that her husband should
travel and should not travel, and she would label them
green was a good day, yellow was iffy, red was bad.
Because after the assassination attempt, she was so terrified that
something would happen to him. She reached out to this.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Astrologer and then she would pill a talker like don't
you leave town next Thursday?
Speaker 6 (47:45):
Ronald in America, she has wouldn't let him go. It
was like not going to happen. It was not on
his schedule. If it was a red day. She controlled
the Gallander.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
But Nancy, nuclear weapons are in there a whole bit.
Why did I sound like Chris Farley? What a terrible
Ronald Reagan? I think that's as good a place as
any to end. That's all the time we have. Thank
you so much today for going beyond the scenes, our
guests Jeff and Kate, thank you so much for going
(48:16):
beyond the scenes with us. Thank you. Listen to The
Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 8 (48:33):
Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by
searching The Daily Show wherever you.
Speaker 7 (48:38):
Get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Watch The Daily Show week nights at.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Eleven ten Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes
anytime on Fairmount Plus.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
This has been a Comedy Central podcast
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