November 28, 2021 • 24 mins
Author and journalist Ta-Nehisi Coates reflects on Barack Obama's presidency in The Atlantic's cover story "My President Was Black." Originally aired December 2016.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Comedy Central, Please welcome, Welcome. I gave
the black dude. You know what's so funny is you
(00:22):
wrote about that and I was reading the piece last
night and I was like, oh, man, I didn't even
It's just a moment in time where you go Barack
Obama straddles two lines, you know where he is, yes, president,
but you cannot deny that your president was black. And
it's that small moment where you go like do I
do I make it? Do I? Not right? But welcome
(00:42):
to the show. Thanks, yeah, man, It's a it's been
quite a journey for you. I remember the first time
we spoke and you had exploded onto the scene, your
book a best seller, everyone talking about you and your
life has changed since then a little bit, A little bit,
a little bit, A lot of it's all too because
I've been writing for twenty years and for about eighteen
(01:07):
and those years no one cared, and then like a
bunch of people were suddenly looking. So it's like that,
it's like the weirdest thing, you know what I mean.
It's like if you do this, you just singing on corners,
like for that's just what you do. You just singing
you just like singing on corners, and then one day
that a lot of people looking at the corner, you
know what I mean, and you can't quite figure out,
like why why they they are? You feel like you've
been doing the same thing the whole time. Well, I
(01:27):
guess maybe it was a combination of you hitting your
peak and maybe America reaching a place where your voice
was something that was that is that is needed. Um,
what would you say is the best and worst part
of having celebrity? Though, Man, I can't believe I'm gonna
say this, I have to give you an honest answer. Um,
it's very challenging to be a college dropout trying to
(01:51):
be a writer. Financially, Um, my life is a lot
less financially champaging. Now I have to say, that's the
best part. I just gotta be honest about I hope.
So if you honest about that, yeah, that's just true. Um.
Probably the worst part is the amount of people looking
at you. I mean not that I mean I you know,
I was one of these people who probably a few
(02:12):
years ago, I was like, I don't understand what's wrong
with Kanye West, And I kind of understand a little
bit now, you know what I mean, Like I kind
of so I kind of got it. I'm not saying,
you know, you should have got to see Trump to
get a little bit, you know what I mean? You no,
I hear what you're saying. Like, I think one of
the pieces that resonated with me was what you talked
about how people no longer see you as a human.
(02:32):
They see you as an object, not at all, not
at all like you really are. I don't even know
how to describe it. Like they'll talk to you and
this is like good and bad, like even when they're
complimenting you, and it's like it's going like right past you,
like they're talking to some image of you. And you know,
you have this whole thing where you can't figure out
why people are being nice to you, whether they're being
genuine or not. And even when they're being mean to you,
(02:55):
you know, it's like, you know, you're not really being
mean to me, you know what I mean, Like it's
like some other thing. It's it's the idea of you.
And that idea is exacerbated by by the writing, because
people do look to your writing now and I know,
and you know, I've heard you talk about a bit,
you know, even the last time we were here, how
you you sort of shunned that. You go, Hey, I
write and these are my opinions, and that's that I'm
(03:17):
not dictating, I'm not putting in a place. But this
article is really powerful. My President was Black? What does
that title mean? What? It was a moment uh during
an iration that you know, a lot of folks watch
the time and I watched with you know, young Jeezy
and jay Z on stage and they do my president
(03:37):
is Black. And it was such a joyous, beautiful moment,
and I wanted to conjure that, but at the same
time make it a little bit allergic, like this thing
had actually ended. And so it kind of, you know,
just all sort of fit together. And this is a
piece way you spent It seems like you spent a
lot of time with the President writing this piece. We
actually did spend quiet. I was sort of surprised that
(03:58):
he spent that much time with me, actually because you
know the fact that um I had been you know,
critical to him specifically about you know, how he dealt
with African Americans in the past, was a known thing
to him in the White House. Well, let's let's get
into that, because you do talk about that in the article.
You've always been critical of the president with regards to
how he addresses black audiences versus how he addresses a
(04:22):
white audience about African Americans, Like, what was your biggest
criticism of that? Well, it were two things. I mean,
I felt like the president in one respect, you know,
wanted to be, as he said, the President of all people,
but in other respects wanted to you know, get you know,
the sort of black past. So when it came to policy,
when it came talking about policy, it was always un
(04:44):
the president of all people. I can't do anything specific
or special for black people. Then when it came to
you know, talking about you know, what we you know
now understand on what we call, you know, respectability politics,
he was saying things to black folks that probably I
would have less of a problem with if he would
Who are not the president of the United States and
thus the bearer of the heritage and the you know,
(05:04):
legacy of why black folks and a lot of these
conditions in the first place. Here's a question I have though,
if you are in that position, how do you straddle
the line, you know, between between saying because you are
the president, you are and you're talking to a black audience. Like,
is it the difference between nobody hearing you say this
to a black audience, or is it the fact that
(05:26):
you were saying to a black audience. I think it
is the fact that you're you're the president now, like
you just it's just a different sort of position. You're
no longer Barack in the hood, you know what I mean?
Like you, it's true you're black, Like that sounds like
a dope movie. I'm just gonna throw it out the right, right,
but you're not. That's not who you are anymore. I mean,
you represent Andrew Johnson. You represent Andrew Jackson, you represent
(05:49):
with jod Wilson. You have the heritage, you know of
a country that you know, for most of its history
in terms of its policy, has not been particularly friendly
towards black folks. And so my feeling was when you then,
you know, addressed them, you know, in this sort of way.
You know, why don't you probably be your pants, why
don't you work hard, and why don't you you know,
I just some u man boy. It just just totally
(06:10):
completely rubbed me the wrong And you were you were
in a unique situation where you could talk to the
President's about how effect if I was. But yeah, yeah,
no I was. I was. And it's the weirdest thing,
you know what I mean, because it's like you're not
gonna beat the president, but you just just you're not.
You still gotta fight, right, You still had to go
in and and you gotta you know, because what he would
(06:32):
do is he would summon you you know what, he
would summon these reporters. And he's very tricky, right because
what he would do is the first time I did it,
he sat me right next to him because it's assigned
places where you have to sit right, so everybody has
to sit down. And then he comes in. So it's like,
you know, say it to my face, you know what
I mean. He was all bold when he was right,
and you can touch my face as well, right right,
right right, And then the second I was like right
(06:53):
across from but right, so it's like, you know what
you got to say? Now you go, you know, you're
you're you're you all brave when you got your you know,
your little laptop over there, but you know you don't
hear it. It was funny, I picture, I'm saying, this
is you, where's your laptop? Now? Yeahop to my face,
my face, that's funny, that's that's that idea. Yeah, but
(07:14):
you gotta say and you know, always the first time,
I felt like I went really really sloft, and I
came over when I told abouts and I went, I
went so soft. And when I was going down the
second time, she said, listen, you go down there and
you don't take no stuff, you don't play. You tell
him exactly how you feel. Son Like, she was like,
you know what I mean? And I went and I
kind of overdid it, just like what, You're still the president,
(07:37):
so I want your water. So I could never quite
get it calibrated, you know what I mean. Let's let's
talk about that, just just jenuine, because this is the
gist of this article. It's you talking about Barack Obama
trying to calibrate. It's you as telling how she was
trying to calibrate. That seems to be the recurring theme
that you hear being talked about, especially when it comes
(07:59):
to black discourse in America in South Africa. It's the same,
I know, it's it's it's a different history, but a
shared history at the same time, and it is always
the conversation, how do you calibrate, how extreme should you be?
How much conversation should you have? What? What was the
one thing you noticed being with the president for so
long in terms of his calibration? Well reast all. I
(08:25):
so this was like a different piece than like everything
else I've written, Like I felt like when it came
time to write this piece, like I've taken my shots.
People know how I feel like this is not you know,
like I could not rehash the same argument I was having.
This was, you know, I guess an attempt to really
really understand him. That the first thing I you know, immediately,
you know, I felt that I understood was that he
(08:47):
was able to address white Americans in a way that
I just think very few African Americans could. And why
Why is that? Because I think Barack Obama was born
into a home um, not just to you, a white
woman and white grandparents, but a white woman and white
grandparents who shockingly told him it was okay that he
was black and that he should not be ashamed of it,
(09:09):
and that he should in fact be proud of it. Um.
He and I think also, I think in addition to that,
you know, and he says this part of the reason
why that was possible to shift physical distance of being
in Hawaii and not growing up again some of the
grinding pressures of you know, Jim Crown, And so I
think he just that that's a very very unique circumstance,
you know, to to grow up. And I think it
(09:29):
does kind of shape your approach um in a good
way in the center if you want to have the
ambition to be president of the United States, but perhaps
in a bad way when it comes to actually having
to deal with the force and the pressures of American
racism when you can't actually escape in any But now
this is this is a paradox, and this is where
I struggle because one thing I love about you is
(09:50):
that you are the eternal pessimists. No, because I sometimes
feel like I'm too optimists. And when I read your stuff,
I go like, yeah, maybe you know what, tru just
come back to the world will become better in the
moral ark and I'm like, we can do it, guys,
you can. I really think like that, And your writing
takes me the other way, you know, I find that
(10:10):
balance in between. But I go when you talk about
that essentially what you're saying is Barack Obama, in your opinion,
may not have ascended to the highest office in the
land were he not someone who was able to see
beyond what white people have done to black people in America. Yeah,
(10:32):
I mean, I guess, um c beyond strikes me as
a little as a little a little bit much. Um.
I think if he were more personally wounded, he was
not traumatized by it. Do you understand, Like, like when
I go up there, and I get what you're saying,
when I go up in West Baltimore, Like anything associated
like and I'm talking about my childhood associated with white
(10:53):
people percent of time was something malevolent, Yes, Like it
was an explanatory force for something bad. And then in
some cases it was a direct, you know, explanatory you
know force. You know, why do you live in the
neighborhood you live in. Why are you worried, you know,
in that neighborhood about your personal safety? Why is that
neighborhood shape the way? Why did the police deal with
you and that that's not his experience. Why why the
(11:14):
schools the way they are? Who has the power? Who
does not that that that's not you know, the sort
of experience that he had, and so his approach was
was very very different, I think. But now this is
this is the problem I have with with the pessimans.
As I go, you're basically saying that you need all
of those ingredients to ever have a black presidence again.
(11:34):
Like there's there's one line where you wrote where I
mean I paraphrase, but it was basically saying, we watched
the president. You were talking about the BT party, the
lost party that the president through and it was a
black audience that it comes together to celebrate and you
you know, the feeling was one of of loss, but
almost the future loss going we will never see this again.
(11:55):
You genuinely believe that, I don't know, Like it's harder
to predict because maybe there's another path that I'm not
saying I didn't see that, not like I written this
an event, right, this is only my assessment of how
he did it. Yes, you under saying like maybe there's
some other path that I'm completely missing, because I certainly
didn't see this path at all. Um, that's how he
did it, and I don't think many African Americans could
(12:16):
have done it the same way. You know, it's strange,
it's It's what I picked up in the article is
it's almost like you're saying strangely enough, white people can
see the anger and then they fear that anger, and
so they respond differently to the person who's in front
of it be the anger. It's just like the fact
of the matter. I mean, like if I have to
go into downstate Illinois, I don't know these people. He
(12:39):
literally relates to these people, do you understand, Like it's
my grandparents right, what you're saying, And it's very like,
you know, the chances of me actually, you know, walking
into you know the kind of places that he walked into. Well,
I'm not gonna I know, I know. I have a
similar thing. Like sometimes people say to me, they go,
why aren't you angry at white people? Why aren't you
angry about everything? And then I go, I cannot condemn
all of them, because I know love from some white
(13:00):
We don't want you to condemn all of them, No,
but I mean some people do though. Some people want
you to label it across the board. But I go,
but when I see a white man, I see my father,
I go like, there's a person who I know who
loved me. And the black woman and black people and
my family. You get what I'm saying. So sometimes it
is it is it is that relatability. Um when you're
when you're going through the story of Barack Obama. One
(13:22):
thing I found interesting was how it's sort of related
to what you talk about in your book. Many people
of color can relate to it. But it's like, even
as a president, it feels like Barack Obama had to
be twice as good. Definitely did. I mean, it's just
it's just no question. I mean, it was all it
is sort of reporting after you know, the election, it said, well,
Barack Obama won these votes and Donald Trump wanted with
(13:44):
that proves it. There's there's no races, no no, no, no
no no no no. If I have to, you know,
jump six ft to get the same thing that you
have to jump two feet for, that that's how racism works.
It's not global and complete. You can't do it. It's
really about raising, you know, saying it just means that
you've gotta clear higher stand you know what I mean.
And you know, to be president, he had to be
you know, uh, scholarly intelligent president or a Harvard you know,
(14:09):
law review, the product of somehow you know, greatest educational
institution is capable of talking to two different worlds, and
Donald Trump had to be rich and white. That was it.
That's that's the difference. Well, that's not fair, Orange, But
but I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. Okay,
let me challenge you on the store. I agree with
(14:31):
most of what you're saying. I genuinely do, and I
grapple with this every single day. But then I go,
if you look at Obama and you track his progress,
a lot of the things that Barack Obama ran on,
all ideas and policies that Donald Trump has run on,
and not We're not talking about the major disgusting ideas
(14:51):
that Donald Trump has, you know, the deplorable ideas that
he has, reprehensible, good, you know feelings. I'm talking more
specifically around NAFTA trade policies, policies that affect those swing
states that we know to be the white working class bastion.
Couldn't it be argued that Barack Obama and Donald Trump
(15:13):
tapped into the same thing. You know that they both
knew that if I go and talk to that factory
worker and tell him I'm against those trade deals, that
person will vote for me. Couldn't you argue that it's
it's that and not racism? Um, I don't think it's
either or actually don't think it's Um. I don't really
have the data with my understanding as Hillary Clinton didn't
(15:34):
really campaign in Wisconsin, yeah, you know, and I think
that was a major major mistake. He spent a lot
of time, you know, invested, you know, I think he
just I mean, you can say what you want about
how how to Barry is. He just thought he could
clear it, you know what I mean if he went
and talked to folks, you know, Um, And that's a
great achievement, but it's also a very very very difficult achievement.
(15:55):
And I know, I keep going back to this, I
think because it has to be said, the very thing
that made that possible when it came time to govern
was the reason why he was so caught off guarding,
so surprised by the kind of reaction that he got,
which I think you mean from Congress, from you know,
like the obstruction Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I
mean black folks, you know, would come up you know differently,
(16:17):
you know, not the way he came up in a
white might have been somewhat shocked by you, but not
really surprised. I mean, if you told us that, you
know what, Congress isn't gonna work with him at all,
what had of chords with what we know about? Nothing
about that that, you know what I mean, Like that's
not really particularly surprising. But he has a senator, had
had these great relationships, you know, in the Senate, when
(16:39):
he was in legislator in Illinois, he had had these
sorts of great relationships. To see, now you're a president,
you know, saying you're a titular head of the country.
You know what I mean, you are the highest executive
in the country. It's a very very, very different relationship.
And the notion that a party that's been heavily racialized
in the way that you know, the Republican Party has
been would freak out at the side of that, it's
(17:00):
not shocking the black folks at all. Let's talk about
the racialized aspect before before we move on. That has
been one of the biggest things that has been talked about,
people saying, you know, if Hillary talked to white voters,
then maybe this wouldn't have happened. This is the product
of making it all about race. If y'all didn't keep
bringing up race, we wouldn't have needed to do this. Yeah. Again,
(17:22):
I just don't think it's either or, you know what
I mean. I think it probably is to that she
probably should have spent more time. And some of them
say he's talking before. I think that's that's true. You know,
I'm never against that, you know. Um. At the same time,
you know, I don't think if that means that you
have to not talk about race at all. And given
how the Democratic Party is, this isn't twenty years ago.
I mean, if you're gonna be competitive in the Democratic Party,
(17:42):
I mean, if you're gonna win South Carolina, you're gonna
win Georgia, North Carolina, Texas, you gotta talk to black
and brown people. So you don't even have a luxury
anymore of getting around it. It's not it's not a
viable path through a Democratic primary anymore. And somebody, you know,
if you're gonna be a viable candid you gotta figure
out how to balance those two things. And you know,
(18:03):
that's the one thing he did do. He did have
that figured out, you know, in terms of balancing and
figuring out I mean, he could win in I win
and go win in South Carolina. I mean, he's a
two very very very different states, you know. Um so
that that that that you know, Hillary never quite figured
that one out. You know, let's switch gears and talk
a little bit about the piece itself and tannahassee coats.
(18:24):
Because I'm genuinely fascinated by this. I will read something
like this. I process it in my mind. I try,
and you know, I argue with you in my mind
who I don't agree to? The pessim has been so on,
But for the most part, I'm with you. And then
I'm always intrigued, you know, by people who say, um oh,
Tana coach, why didn't you write about Barack Obama's foreign policy?
(18:46):
And why didn't you write about Barack Obama's leniency on
Wall Street? Why did you leave that out of the article?
Why was that was glaringly obviously Why didn't you write
about that? Because I can't. I can't, and I think
those people who have special specialties on Wall Street, and
I think those people who have specialties on foreign policy
probably can't write with the depth that I can. You
know about race. This is not It's not like I,
(19:08):
you know, got an idea one day, Hey, I'm gonna
write an article about you know, the president's legacy or race.
It's not like you can hand that to any reporter.
And it's not because I'm particularly special. It's just that
I've been thinking about this all my life, and I've
been literally covering it for the past eight years. This
is the culmination of a conversation, of a series of
questions that I've been asking for the past eight years.
The piece is organic. You can't just you know, say hey,
(19:29):
you know what, I'm gonna change my beat today and
go take this approach. We published the piece you know
a few months back on Barack Obama's foreign policy. It's
not my expectation that, you know, the author of that
piece is gonna do what I do with you know
what I mean? When I read you know, Jane Mayer
and The New York on Extraordinary Condition, it's not my
expectation that she's gonna be able to come over here
and do you know what I do on race and
somehow make those links. I mean, it'd be nice, it'd
(19:51):
be awesome. I wish I could, you know, but it
requires a depth of knowledge. It's not just you know,
posing questions to people's knowing what questions to pose is
knowing you know what the context is. I mean, it's
a very difficult thing. Listen. I can sit in the
bar with you all day and you know, go back
and forth about you know, drones, go back and forth
with you about business as a vote. As a private citizen,
I can do that, but this is it's a very
(20:13):
very hard thing. It's a much much higher standard. Actually
write about it with some depth, in some intelligence, and
that would be a horrible reason to be sitting in
a bar. I mean, that's depressing and talking about drones
and this alcohol. Drones and alcohol don't make my type.
I just want to say to you, um, I love
your writing. I love what you talk about. Uh, you know,
it's it's it's interesting and strange to me how much
(20:35):
pressure is bestowed on you by people that go like, oh,
the Baldwin of this generation. To listen, I go, no,
you're You're the town of House the coats and thanks
so much. Watch the Daily Show weeknights Central. Learned Comedy
Central in stream fool episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This
(20:58):
has been a Comedy Central podcast
You're listening to Comedy Central, Please welcome, Welcome. I gave
the black dude. You know what's so funny is you
(00:22):
wrote about that and I was reading the piece last
night and I was like, oh, man, I didn't even
It's just a moment in time where you go Barack
Obama straddles two lines, you know where he is, yes, president,
but you cannot deny that your president was black. And
it's that small moment where you go like do I
do I make it? Do I? Not right? But welcome
(00:42):
to the show. Thanks, yeah, man, It's a it's been
quite a journey for you. I remember the first time
we spoke and you had exploded onto the scene, your
book a best seller, everyone talking about you and your
life has changed since then a little bit, A little bit,
a little bit, A lot of it's all too because
I've been writing for twenty years and for about eighteen
(01:07):
and those years no one cared, and then like a
bunch of people were suddenly looking. So it's like that,
it's like the weirdest thing, you know what I mean.
It's like if you do this, you just singing on corners,
like for that's just what you do. You just singing
you just like singing on corners, and then one day
that a lot of people looking at the corner, you
know what I mean, and you can't quite figure out,
like why why they they are? You feel like you've
been doing the same thing the whole time. Well, I
(01:27):
guess maybe it was a combination of you hitting your
peak and maybe America reaching a place where your voice
was something that was that is that is needed. Um,
what would you say is the best and worst part
of having celebrity? Though, Man, I can't believe I'm gonna
say this, I have to give you an honest answer. Um,
it's very challenging to be a college dropout trying to
(01:51):
be a writer. Financially, Um, my life is a lot
less financially champaging. Now I have to say, that's the
best part. I just gotta be honest about I hope.
So if you honest about that, yeah, that's just true. Um.
Probably the worst part is the amount of people looking
at you. I mean not that I mean I you know,
I was one of these people who probably a few
(02:12):
years ago, I was like, I don't understand what's wrong
with Kanye West, And I kind of understand a little
bit now, you know what I mean, Like I kind
of so I kind of got it. I'm not saying,
you know, you should have got to see Trump to
get a little bit, you know what I mean? You no,
I hear what you're saying. Like, I think one of
the pieces that resonated with me was what you talked
about how people no longer see you as a human.
(02:32):
They see you as an object, not at all, not
at all like you really are. I don't even know
how to describe it. Like they'll talk to you and
this is like good and bad, like even when they're
complimenting you, and it's like it's going like right past you,
like they're talking to some image of you. And you know,
you have this whole thing where you can't figure out
why people are being nice to you, whether they're being
genuine or not. And even when they're being mean to you,
(02:55):
you know, it's like, you know, you're not really being
mean to me, you know what I mean, Like it's
like some other thing. It's it's the idea of you.
And that idea is exacerbated by by the writing, because
people do look to your writing now and I know,
and you know, I've heard you talk about a bit,
you know, even the last time we were here, how
you you sort of shunned that. You go, Hey, I
write and these are my opinions, and that's that I'm
(03:17):
not dictating, I'm not putting in a place. But this
article is really powerful. My President was Black? What does
that title mean? What? It was a moment uh during
an iration that you know, a lot of folks watch
the time and I watched with you know, young Jeezy
and jay Z on stage and they do my president
(03:37):
is Black. And it was such a joyous, beautiful moment,
and I wanted to conjure that, but at the same
time make it a little bit allergic, like this thing
had actually ended. And so it kind of, you know,
just all sort of fit together. And this is a
piece way you spent It seems like you spent a
lot of time with the President writing this piece. We
actually did spend quiet. I was sort of surprised that
(03:58):
he spent that much time with me, actually because you
know the fact that um I had been you know,
critical to him specifically about you know, how he dealt
with African Americans in the past, was a known thing
to him in the White House. Well, let's let's get
into that, because you do talk about that in the article.
You've always been critical of the president with regards to
how he addresses black audiences versus how he addresses a
(04:22):
white audience about African Americans, Like, what was your biggest
criticism of that? Well, it were two things. I mean,
I felt like the president in one respect, you know,
wanted to be, as he said, the President of all people,
but in other respects wanted to you know, get you know,
the sort of black past. So when it came to policy,
when it came talking about policy, it was always un
(04:44):
the president of all people. I can't do anything specific
or special for black people. Then when it came to
you know, talking about you know, what we you know
now understand on what we call, you know, respectability politics,
he was saying things to black folks that probably I
would have less of a problem with if he would
Who are not the president of the United States and
thus the bearer of the heritage and the you know,
(05:04):
legacy of why black folks and a lot of these
conditions in the first place. Here's a question I have though,
if you are in that position, how do you straddle
the line, you know, between between saying because you are
the president, you are and you're talking to a black audience. Like,
is it the difference between nobody hearing you say this
to a black audience, or is it the fact that
(05:26):
you were saying to a black audience. I think it
is the fact that you're you're the president now, like
you just it's just a different sort of position. You're
no longer Barack in the hood, you know what I mean?
Like you, it's true you're black, Like that sounds like
a dope movie. I'm just gonna throw it out the right, right,
but you're not. That's not who you are anymore. I mean,
you represent Andrew Johnson. You represent Andrew Jackson, you represent
(05:49):
with jod Wilson. You have the heritage, you know of
a country that you know, for most of its history
in terms of its policy, has not been particularly friendly
towards black folks. And so my feeling was when you then,
you know, addressed them, you know, in this sort of way.
You know, why don't you probably be your pants, why
don't you work hard, and why don't you you know,
I just some u man boy. It just just totally
(06:10):
completely rubbed me the wrong And you were you were
in a unique situation where you could talk to the
President's about how effect if I was. But yeah, yeah,
no I was. I was. And it's the weirdest thing,
you know what I mean, because it's like you're not
gonna beat the president, but you just just you're not.
You still gotta fight, right, You still had to go
in and and you gotta you know, because what he would
(06:32):
do is he would summon you you know what, he
would summon these reporters. And he's very tricky, right because
what he would do is the first time I did it,
he sat me right next to him because it's assigned
places where you have to sit right, so everybody has
to sit down. And then he comes in. So it's like,
you know, say it to my face, you know what
I mean. He was all bold when he was right,
and you can touch my face as well, right right,
right right, And then the second I was like right
(06:53):
across from but right, so it's like, you know what
you got to say? Now you go, you know, you're
you're you're you all brave when you got your you know,
your little laptop over there, but you know you don't
hear it. It was funny, I picture, I'm saying, this
is you, where's your laptop? Now? Yeahop to my face,
my face, that's funny, that's that's that idea. Yeah, but
(07:14):
you gotta say and you know, always the first time,
I felt like I went really really sloft, and I
came over when I told abouts and I went, I
went so soft. And when I was going down the
second time, she said, listen, you go down there and
you don't take no stuff, you don't play. You tell
him exactly how you feel. Son Like, she was like,
you know what I mean? And I went and I
kind of overdid it, just like what, You're still the president,
(07:37):
so I want your water. So I could never quite
get it calibrated, you know what I mean. Let's let's
talk about that, just just jenuine, because this is the
gist of this article. It's you talking about Barack Obama
trying to calibrate. It's you as telling how she was
trying to calibrate. That seems to be the recurring theme
that you hear being talked about, especially when it comes
(07:59):
to black discourse in America in South Africa. It's the same,
I know, it's it's it's a different history, but a
shared history at the same time, and it is always
the conversation, how do you calibrate, how extreme should you be?
How much conversation should you have? What? What was the
one thing you noticed being with the president for so
long in terms of his calibration? Well reast all. I
(08:25):
so this was like a different piece than like everything
else I've written, Like I felt like when it came
time to write this piece, like I've taken my shots.
People know how I feel like this is not you know,
like I could not rehash the same argument I was having.
This was, you know, I guess an attempt to really
really understand him. That the first thing I you know, immediately,
you know, I felt that I understood was that he
(08:47):
was able to address white Americans in a way that
I just think very few African Americans could. And why
Why is that? Because I think Barack Obama was born
into a home um, not just to you, a white
woman and white grandparents, but a white woman and white
grandparents who shockingly told him it was okay that he
was black and that he should not be ashamed of it,
(09:09):
and that he should in fact be proud of it. Um.
He and I think also, I think in addition to that,
you know, and he says this part of the reason
why that was possible to shift physical distance of being
in Hawaii and not growing up again some of the
grinding pressures of you know, Jim Crown, And so I
think he just that that's a very very unique circumstance,
you know, to to grow up. And I think it
(09:29):
does kind of shape your approach um in a good
way in the center if you want to have the
ambition to be president of the United States, but perhaps
in a bad way when it comes to actually having
to deal with the force and the pressures of American
racism when you can't actually escape in any But now
this is this is a paradox, and this is where
I struggle because one thing I love about you is
(09:50):
that you are the eternal pessimists. No, because I sometimes
feel like I'm too optimists. And when I read your stuff,
I go like, yeah, maybe you know what, tru just
come back to the world will become better in the
moral ark and I'm like, we can do it, guys,
you can. I really think like that, And your writing
takes me the other way, you know, I find that
(10:10):
balance in between. But I go when you talk about
that essentially what you're saying is Barack Obama, in your opinion,
may not have ascended to the highest office in the
land were he not someone who was able to see
beyond what white people have done to black people in America. Yeah,
(10:32):
I mean, I guess, um c beyond strikes me as
a little as a little a little bit much. Um.
I think if he were more personally wounded, he was
not traumatized by it. Do you understand, Like, like when
I go up there, and I get what you're saying,
when I go up in West Baltimore, Like anything associated
like and I'm talking about my childhood associated with white
(10:53):
people percent of time was something malevolent, Yes, Like it
was an explanatory force for something bad. And then in
some cases it was a direct, you know, explanatory you
know force. You know, why do you live in the
neighborhood you live in. Why are you worried, you know,
in that neighborhood about your personal safety? Why is that
neighborhood shape the way? Why did the police deal with
you and that that's not his experience. Why why the
(11:14):
schools the way they are? Who has the power? Who
does not that that that's not you know, the sort
of experience that he had, and so his approach was
was very very different, I think. But now this is
this is the problem I have with with the pessimans.
As I go, you're basically saying that you need all
of those ingredients to ever have a black presidence again.
(11:34):
Like there's there's one line where you wrote where I
mean I paraphrase, but it was basically saying, we watched
the president. You were talking about the BT party, the
lost party that the president through and it was a
black audience that it comes together to celebrate and you
you know, the feeling was one of of loss, but
almost the future loss going we will never see this again.
(11:55):
You genuinely believe that, I don't know, Like it's harder
to predict because maybe there's another path that I'm not
saying I didn't see that, not like I written this
an event, right, this is only my assessment of how
he did it. Yes, you under saying like maybe there's
some other path that I'm completely missing, because I certainly
didn't see this path at all. Um, that's how he
did it, and I don't think many African Americans could
(12:16):
have done it the same way. You know, it's strange,
it's It's what I picked up in the article is
it's almost like you're saying strangely enough, white people can
see the anger and then they fear that anger, and
so they respond differently to the person who's in front
of it be the anger. It's just like the fact
of the matter. I mean, like if I have to
go into downstate Illinois, I don't know these people. He
(12:39):
literally relates to these people, do you understand, Like it's
my grandparents right, what you're saying, And it's very like,
you know, the chances of me actually, you know, walking
into you know the kind of places that he walked into. Well,
I'm not gonna I know, I know. I have a
similar thing. Like sometimes people say to me, they go,
why aren't you angry at white people? Why aren't you
angry about everything? And then I go, I cannot condemn
all of them, because I know love from some white
(13:00):
We don't want you to condemn all of them, No,
but I mean some people do though. Some people want
you to label it across the board. But I go,
but when I see a white man, I see my father,
I go like, there's a person who I know who
loved me. And the black woman and black people and
my family. You get what I'm saying. So sometimes it
is it is it is that relatability. Um when you're
when you're going through the story of Barack Obama. One
(13:22):
thing I found interesting was how it's sort of related
to what you talk about in your book. Many people
of color can relate to it. But it's like, even
as a president, it feels like Barack Obama had to
be twice as good. Definitely did. I mean, it's just
it's just no question. I mean, it was all it
is sort of reporting after you know, the election, it said, well,
Barack Obama won these votes and Donald Trump wanted with
(13:44):
that proves it. There's there's no races, no no, no, no
no no no no. If I have to, you know,
jump six ft to get the same thing that you
have to jump two feet for, that that's how racism works.
It's not global and complete. You can't do it. It's
really about raising, you know, saying it just means that
you've gotta clear higher stand you know what I mean.
And you know, to be president, he had to be
you know, uh, scholarly intelligent president or a Harvard you know,
(14:09):
law review, the product of somehow you know, greatest educational
institution is capable of talking to two different worlds, and
Donald Trump had to be rich and white. That was it.
That's that's the difference. Well, that's not fair, Orange, But
but I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. Okay,
let me challenge you on the store. I agree with
(14:31):
most of what you're saying. I genuinely do, and I
grapple with this every single day. But then I go,
if you look at Obama and you track his progress,
a lot of the things that Barack Obama ran on,
all ideas and policies that Donald Trump has run on,
and not We're not talking about the major disgusting ideas
(14:51):
that Donald Trump has, you know, the deplorable ideas that
he has, reprehensible, good, you know feelings. I'm talking more
specifically around NAFTA trade policies, policies that affect those swing
states that we know to be the white working class bastion.
Couldn't it be argued that Barack Obama and Donald Trump
(15:13):
tapped into the same thing. You know that they both
knew that if I go and talk to that factory
worker and tell him I'm against those trade deals, that
person will vote for me. Couldn't you argue that it's
it's that and not racism? Um, I don't think it's
either or actually don't think it's Um. I don't really
have the data with my understanding as Hillary Clinton didn't
(15:34):
really campaign in Wisconsin, yeah, you know, and I think
that was a major major mistake. He spent a lot
of time, you know, invested, you know, I think he
just I mean, you can say what you want about
how how to Barry is. He just thought he could
clear it, you know what I mean if he went
and talked to folks, you know, Um, And that's a
great achievement, but it's also a very very very difficult achievement.
(15:55):
And I know, I keep going back to this, I
think because it has to be said, the very thing
that made that possible when it came time to govern
was the reason why he was so caught off guarding,
so surprised by the kind of reaction that he got,
which I think you mean from Congress, from you know,
like the obstruction Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I
mean black folks, you know, would come up you know differently,
(16:17):
you know, not the way he came up in a
white might have been somewhat shocked by you, but not
really surprised. I mean, if you told us that, you
know what, Congress isn't gonna work with him at all,
what had of chords with what we know about? Nothing
about that that, you know what I mean, Like that's
not really particularly surprising. But he has a senator, had
had these great relationships, you know, in the Senate, when
(16:39):
he was in legislator in Illinois, he had had these
sorts of great relationships. To see, now you're a president,
you know, saying you're a titular head of the country.
You know what I mean, you are the highest executive
in the country. It's a very very, very different relationship.
And the notion that a party that's been heavily racialized
in the way that you know, the Republican Party has
been would freak out at the side of that, it's
(17:00):
not shocking the black folks at all. Let's talk about
the racialized aspect before before we move on. That has
been one of the biggest things that has been talked about,
people saying, you know, if Hillary talked to white voters,
then maybe this wouldn't have happened. This is the product
of making it all about race. If y'all didn't keep
bringing up race, we wouldn't have needed to do this. Yeah. Again,
(17:22):
I just don't think it's either or, you know what
I mean. I think it probably is to that she
probably should have spent more time. And some of them
say he's talking before. I think that's that's true. You know,
I'm never against that, you know. Um. At the same time,
you know, I don't think if that means that you
have to not talk about race at all. And given
how the Democratic Party is, this isn't twenty years ago.
I mean, if you're gonna be competitive in the Democratic Party,
(17:42):
I mean, if you're gonna win South Carolina, you're gonna
win Georgia, North Carolina, Texas, you gotta talk to black
and brown people. So you don't even have a luxury
anymore of getting around it. It's not it's not a
viable path through a Democratic primary anymore. And somebody, you know,
if you're gonna be a viable candid you gotta figure
out how to balance those two things. And you know,
(18:03):
that's the one thing he did do. He did have
that figured out, you know, in terms of balancing and
figuring out I mean, he could win in I win
and go win in South Carolina. I mean, he's a
two very very very different states, you know. Um so
that that that that you know, Hillary never quite figured
that one out. You know, let's switch gears and talk
a little bit about the piece itself and tannahassee coats.
(18:24):
Because I'm genuinely fascinated by this. I will read something
like this. I process it in my mind. I try,
and you know, I argue with you in my mind
who I don't agree to? The pessim has been so on,
But for the most part, I'm with you. And then
I'm always intrigued, you know, by people who say, um oh,
Tana coach, why didn't you write about Barack Obama's foreign policy?
(18:46):
And why didn't you write about Barack Obama's leniency on
Wall Street? Why did you leave that out of the article?
Why was that was glaringly obviously Why didn't you write
about that? Because I can't. I can't, and I think
those people who have special specialties on Wall Street, and
I think those people who have specialties on foreign policy
probably can't write with the depth that I can. You
know about race. This is not It's not like I,
(19:08):
you know, got an idea one day, Hey, I'm gonna
write an article about you know, the president's legacy or race.
It's not like you can hand that to any reporter.
And it's not because I'm particularly special. It's just that
I've been thinking about this all my life, and I've
been literally covering it for the past eight years. This
is the culmination of a conversation, of a series of
questions that I've been asking for the past eight years.
The piece is organic. You can't just you know, say hey,
(19:29):
you know what, I'm gonna change my beat today and
go take this approach. We published the piece you know
a few months back on Barack Obama's foreign policy. It's
not my expectation that, you know, the author of that
piece is gonna do what I do with you know
what I mean? When I read you know, Jane Mayer
and The New York on Extraordinary Condition, it's not my
expectation that she's gonna be able to come over here
and do you know what I do on race and
somehow make those links. I mean, it'd be nice, it'd
(19:51):
be awesome. I wish I could, you know, but it
requires a depth of knowledge. It's not just you know,
posing questions to people's knowing what questions to pose is
knowing you know what the context is. I mean, it's
a very difficult thing. Listen. I can sit in the
bar with you all day and you know, go back
and forth about you know, drones, go back and forth
with you about business as a vote. As a private citizen,
I can do that, but this is it's a very
(20:13):
very hard thing. It's a much much higher standard. Actually
write about it with some depth, in some intelligence, and
that would be a horrible reason to be sitting in
a bar. I mean, that's depressing and talking about drones
and this alcohol. Drones and alcohol don't make my type.
I just want to say to you, um, I love
your writing. I love what you talk about. Uh, you know,
it's it's it's interesting and strange to me how much
(20:35):
pressure is bestowed on you by people that go like, oh,
the Baldwin of this generation. To listen, I go, no,
you're You're the town of House the coats and thanks
so much. Watch the Daily Show weeknights Central. Learned Comedy
Central in stream fool episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This
(20:58):
has been a Comedy Central podcast
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