The Forgotten Queer History of Drag (feat. Bob the Drag Queen) | Beyond the Scenes - The Daily Show: Ears Edition

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Comedy CENTRALOW what's up Here's edition listener,
It's Roy Wood Jr. Correspondent for The Daily Show. You're
about to hear an episode of one of our original
Daily Show podcasts, Beyond the Scenes. It's the show where
we dive deeper into segments and topics that originally aired
on The Daily Show and we chat with the show's writers, producers,

(00:21):
and experts. This week, we're talking about the history of
drag and why conservatives are outraged by kids exposure to
drag shows. This episode features Bob the Drag Queen, Professor
of Journalism, Channing Joseph, and Arthur Frank DeCaro. We chat
about black and quar trailblazers, the legacy of drag activism,
and Bob even gave me a drag queen name. Yes me, Roy,

(00:44):
I got a drag queen name now whenever I start
my career in drag. We hope you enjoy it and
if you like the show, check out the Beyond the
Scenes podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, welcome to

(01:06):
Beyond the Scenes. The podcast. It goes deeper into segments
and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show. This
is what you gotta think of this podcast. As if
the Daily Show is tomato soup, then this podcast is
all the toppings you add to make the soup even
more warm and delicious. With the croutons and the crackers
and the grilled cheese you eat with the tomato soup. See,

(01:27):
now you're all cozy and you got the perfect ratio
of liquid and carbs. That's what this podcast is. I'm
Roy withood Ringer today. We're crackers, Bob the drack Queen,
we are we weat crackers. Can we be whole? Green?
Let me let me be, Let me be a uh
one of the rye. What's the dark bread? Let me be?

(01:52):
Let me be a pumper nickel cracker aside a nickel.
That is the voice of our guests, Bob the Drag Queen,
and I'm Roy with Junior Today we're talking about a
segment on the show but corresponding Dulce Sloan, where she
talked about the history of drag and the rise in
protests and threats directed at drag events and the number
of bills introduced by Republican lawmakers seeking to prevent children

(02:17):
from attending drag shows. Let's get a quick clip. Hello friends.
If you know me, you know that I love me
some drag. It's like sports, but for people who don't
want to deal with any balls, if you know what
I mean. But recently conservative stuff but acting like drag,
some brand new thing that liberals dreamed up to tie
your kids in a glitter devil. Now, while eighteenth century

(02:39):
England gave us drag queens, nineteenth century America gave us
drag balls. It's the only time queens colonize the country
and made it better. One of the most famous drag
performers at that time was a former enslaved African named
William Dorsey, the Queen Swan. Dorsey's slaved so hard he
went on to become a pioneer of modern ballroom culture.

(03:00):
America's drag balls brought the culture to the next level
and Harlem. They became so popular that men and women
would come from all over to present their looks to
a panel of judges pageant style. And you know, there's
something comforting and knowing that even hundreds of years ago,
people were telling someone to their face that they were
a messy bitch whose outfit is drash. The circle of life.

(03:21):
Later on in the show. I'll be joined by some
additional guests who are gonna help me dive into the
history of drag. But first, my fellow Papa Nickel is
on the microphone with me to Jacob, please oh RuPaul's
Drag Race. Season eight winner hosted the podcast Sibling Rivalry

(03:42):
and star of HBO's We're Here, which just launched his
third season. Boby Drag Queen, Welcome to Beyond the Scenes.
How do you do? I'm well, thank you so much
for asking, thank you for having me, and and I'm
really proud to know you know. Yeah, we we have
our third season of We're Here, our Emmy Award winning
television show. We're hearing, very very proud of it. What

(04:03):
I appreciate about that television program is that you don't
just tell the story of this world strictly from liberal unclaves,
as they like to say. I flipped past one day
and y'all was in Jackson, Mississippi. I got, oh my god,
Jackson pulling up in the south South. That's the south side.
There's cheese grid south. Oh yeah, in place where they

(04:26):
call what they call what they call it Mississippi. We
was in Mississippi, Honey, and Mississippi just like a drag
queen on it. What would a Mississippi Missippi if you
could as as Laman as you can For our listeners
who don't know, explain exactly what drag is. This is
how idifying drag dragons blurring the gender line while creating art.

(04:48):
Not all drag queens do numbers. Not all drag queens dance,
not all drag queens scene. Some drag queens do comedy.
I know a drag queen and Linda Simpson who takes photographs,
you know what I mean? Like if you people who
there are people do dragon. Their whole thing is just
going to the club and just being pretty and sitting
there and hanging out and partying. There are people who
go up there and they do I'm ana stand up comedian,
so you know when I do it me Bianca del Rio, Um,

(05:10):
we do stand up comedy, when we do a Flame
Monroe comedy, when we do our drags. And some drag artists, um,
you know are our women, and some are men, and
some are binaries. Some are says women, some are trans women. Um,
some are says men, some are trans men, some are
gay men. There are some straight men out there doing drag.

(05:33):
I love everyone. Actually, I don't know that they never
heard of a straight drag queen while watching all the
Tyler Perry movies. I'm like, okay, sure, sure, you never
heard a straight drag queen. Okay, got it. Let's let's
go back to the beginning for you, just in terms
of your introduction into the world a drag Like, what
were some of your experiences like early on, like early
and take me back, bob drag queen one point. Oh what,

(05:54):
you wouldn't even drag queen, You just bob potentially drag
queen to be So, when I was young, my mom
used to actually own a drag bar. My mom owned
drag bar and Columbus Georgia called Sensations. If you are
a gen xer or a boomer who was gay in
the Columbus Georgia area and the nineties, you probably went
to Sensations and you probably went to my mom's drag club.

(06:16):
And that's why I first heard of, and you know,
encountered the species known as drag queens. When you first
started drifting into the world of drag yourself, did you
have representation, did you have role models? Were there other examples,
or were you navigating this world on your own and

(06:37):
a complete folk. So when I started drag, it was
two thousand and eight, thousand and nine, and I was
in New York City. I was twenty two, twenty three
years old, and you know, I was really kind of
just basing it off of what I see because RuPaul's
Drag Rasa just started on TV. Now I knew drag
from RuPaul and Huang Fu and Pursiloquated the Desert, and
you know movies like that, Ruby, Ruby Hart. Is it

(07:00):
to being rams movie? Oh, Holiday Heart, Holiday Heart, Holiday Heart.
But then by this time it was something called repost
drag race. It was less characters of drag and more
like actual drag queens. And I thought it was just
so interested. I was like so impressed. So then I
went out and I got myself some makeup, and I
went to the local club in called Lavish Lounge. He
used to be in. Queens also doesn't exist. As we

(07:21):
keep talking, most of the clubs, I'm gonna mention, especially
after the pandemic, a lot of them just don't exist anymore.
So they're only in the minds of people who were
in these spaces. But it was lavish lounge in the
Story of Queens. And I remember going and seeing these
queens and meeting I remember the queen I met for
the first time ever. Her name was Blackie Oh. Was
her name? Shout out to Blackie Oh. I think it
is still working in these streets, like Jackie o' nassas

(07:44):
name was her name was? Her name was Blackie o' nasty.
It was her name actually, And I started going out.
So it was a little bit of like what I
saw on the internet. You know, there was no Instagram.
Instagram hadn't even it hadn't even been an Instagram yet.
There was no Instagram, there was no There was those
Facebook and the clubs and I would go to and
what I saw on a post drag race um. So

(08:05):
I was there. There was definitely some representation, but it
was it was not as easy to find it today,
like it's so easy to find drag queens today. You
can't throw a rock without hitting a hitting a wig.
You know, you come from the South, you come from Columbus,
Gelgia all the way up to New York. How much
of a culture shift was that? Was it welcome? Because

(08:28):
because like growing up in the South, like how did
the South shape your views on gender roles? And like
this drag hilped blurred gender lines and challenge strict gender norms,
like like, talk to me a little bit about the
empowerment of it versus where you were, what it was
thought of where you were versus where you went as
a twenty two year old, it was way more open.
So when I was a kid and I grew up

(08:49):
in the South, so I did get a lot of
gender roles and gender norms place on me. What it
means to be a man. A lot of my raising
is that, is that a focusing on what it meant
to be an adult. I was often told AD meant
to be a man, like as if there was this
really specific, unique set of rules that men had to
follow that women didn't have to follow, and vice versa.
Women have to do this and men can't do that,

(09:12):
and I I kept bucking against it. I never wanted
to take about those rules. I wanted. I always wanted
to like go against that and do something slightly different
and challenge. And that wasn't it wasn't just like I want.
It was just like I just didn't feel comfortable with
the idea that I had to do certain things just
because of what's between my legs and what I was
born with. So now it's like, so now I literally

(09:34):
have to do this, you know what I mean? And
as a black man, I already have that societal expectation
on me. You know, as a black person, you have
to act a certain way, you can't do certain things.
I was also giving a lot of respectability politics as
a young black person. You know, a lot of us
were taught like, you can't act certain ways in front
of white people. That was like ingrained in me. So
when I got to New York City, I was able
to release all of that and and just do what

(09:56):
felt comfortable to me. I guess the cool thing about
it is when you're in New York, you're amongst your peers,
and you have this degree, you have a support network
if nothing else. Talk just a little bit about that
part of it, because it is not it's not necessarily
always the safest occupation. If we're just gonna be one

(10:17):
hundred about it, talk to me a little bit about
first learning that part of the game, and you know,
who were the people or just how was the ecosystem
in New York at the time. That you were coming
up to start developing those types of you know, protections.
So when I started going out to the clubs, I
met just some of the like I mean talk about
like walking into a bar or a club or a

(10:38):
place in general and meeting people, You're like, wow, these
are really my people. Like I actually found my people.
You know, I started doing drag with Peppermint, Frosty, all
these names are gonna sound so funny to you all,
but to me, they're like, oh friends, Peppermint, Fostylos, Frosty, Flags,
Honey Lebronx, Ray Scandale de la Vertica, Blackie, o' Nasty, Chandelier,

(11:03):
Um Shaquida. These are all the people that I you know,
Pixie Legendary, keep going. These are all the people that
I was doing drag with, and and and and we
even had like networks to help each other get to
our gigs on time and safely. You know, there'll be
times where, if you know, taking a car in New

(11:23):
York City is very expensive. This is even before Uber's
first of all, getting an uber, getting a car as
a drag queen, sometimes it's impossible as a black drag queen.
Forget about it. Then they're never gonna stop for you,
so you have to take the train down. So if
I live in the Heights, I'll stop by Harlem on
the way to pick up my friend Keijia Car because
keija Car doesn't want to write the tramp by herself either,
So I stop off at Keijia's cars stop, I grab

(11:45):
Keijia and we go down. Then we stop at you know,
maybe Frosty stop to grab her so we can get
to the bar and Chelsea safely. So we're all like
in a group together and not traveling alone. And you
have to factor that into your travel time on a
regular basis because the oyls, Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.
I mean the uber really changed the game because we're

(12:05):
able to call cars and if you if you had
a good night, remain money. If you didn't have a
lot of if you didn't make any money that night,
you can't afford the uber and you have to take
the train home anyway. But yeah, traveling, traveling in large
groups is very I was a great way to keep safe.
Going back to that this idea that just to live
your life, you all had to literally schedule what times

(12:26):
you congregated on the train, so you could travel in numbers,
talk a little bit about drags history and activism and
speaking out on a lot of the bullshit that's out
there in the industry. Have you been able to use
drag as a vehicle for political activism as well? Early
in my drag I was doing a lot of political
political activism. I started a group called Drag Queen Weddings

(12:46):
for Equality with my friends. We would go to Times
Square and we would do these uh, these weddings, these
wedding demonstrations where two drag queens would get married by
a drag queen pastor and we would hand out wedding invites,
and the wedding invites would have all this information on
the back about injustices to the queer community. And then
we would do these these demonstrations where where we would

(13:07):
shout out more things and give people calls to action
and how they can you know, who they can call,
who they can talk to, how they can make a change.
There was also some some early arrest in my um
in my drag career, getting getting arrested in full drag
from activism. I was one of those one of those
activists you know, and and and and that's certainly that
it did not start with me. I mean if even
even back to the Compton Cafeteria riots, you know, drag queens,

(13:30):
drag artists, gender benders, um have been bucking against the
system to create change for people, not just for gay men,
but for and not just for queer people, but for
black people, for reproductive rights, uh, immigration rights, even environmental right,
I mean, I know queens where her you know, saving

(13:50):
the wells, you know, like drag queens if there is
a if there is a somewhere to put our nose
in something, but we will put our contour nose in
your business, Honey. To the break, I want to talk
a little bit more about how the added television exposure
about the world of drag, what the pros and cons
are from shows like RuPaul's Drag Race and your show.
We're here, this is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back, Bob.

(14:16):
I want to ask you about the television shows that
have stepped into the mainstream. Now. You know, you have
a show like RuPaul's Drag Race, which I'll say this
and this is and I speak as an alum of
last Comic Standing third place twenty ten, checked the Wikipedia.
I feel like adding a competition element to anything makes

(14:38):
people more likely to watch it. It makes people more
open to immersing themselves in worlds that they don't necessarily
care about, simply because you're seeing people who are trying
to be the best at it. So like I feel
like RuPaul's Drag Race nailed that coming off the heels
of Top Model essentially, which I feel like it was
kind of a precursor. I'm not gonna say that the
two are necessarily connected, but there RuPaul has acknowledged that

(15:02):
drag Race is inspired in part by a Top Model,
and I think you're absolutely right at mean, like even
so like Nowaday, you would never watch someone poorly bick
a cake, but when you put when they're competing and
you have someone hilarious like Nicole Buyer doing it's like, yeah,
I'm gonna watch people fuck up cakes. I would love
love to see that. Also, I want to quickly say
to you, are you reminded me? Beyond the Scenes is
a great drag name beyonda? Oh miss beyond the scenes.

(15:25):
Oh I love her, honey, give it it's beyond the scenes,
yonda And then lift up the lift up the back
skirt of some ship to see beyond the scenes, but
no a show like RuPaul's Drag Race or even We're Here, Like,
I feel like they've all helped pushed drag into the mainstream,
and you showcase a different lens of quick like We're

(15:46):
Here is different from drag Racing, that it's about the nuance,
it's about the emotion. These are reality shows and we
haven't even gotten into script of stuff like Poles or
like It's like, what what do you think that those
shows helped do to change the perception of queerness in America?
So you know the drag Race fan base, you think

(16:07):
it's just a bunch of gay people watching drag Race,
but it's actually not all gay people. A lot of
straight people watch drag Race. Then what it ends up happening.
You have a lot of allies watching drag Race, and
drag Race has been on the air for a six
fifteen seasons, sixteen seasons now, So what happens is these
kids who are watching drag Race and they were young,
are now allies adults who have children, you know what

(16:28):
I mean. They're now full on adults who have children
who will also be allies. It's not like what I
told one of my friends. One of my friends, just
like a white content creator, was like, who couldn't understand
in twenty twenty why what was so important to say
black lives matter as a white person, Like why is
so important? Like why why can't I just do my
thing and not say this. I was like, you don't
have to say it. Let you don't have it, but
I will say this if you do say it. Once
you say black lives matter, because because you matter to

(16:51):
so many little white girls, because you matter to them,
then they hear you say black lives matter. Now black
lives matter to them. Now we have a black lives
matter supporter in the house of a Karen or a
cop who might end up hurting a black person or
doing something like that. So you're basically just spreading the word,
you know what I mean? And I think that, and
I think that's the situation that we're in right We're
in right now. That's how drag race has changed the

(17:13):
world of understanding queer people. In my opinion, it also
shows like Pose Queer for the Straight Guy with Paul's
drag Race legendary transformation. There's so many shows like this
that put queer people in front of people who are
potential allies, and let them see that we're not out
in these streets doing something and the weird and nefarious

(17:35):
stuff that they think we're trying to do. We're just
living our lives. People took you because didn't get turned
into one of them in the Bible. You know, I
would tell folks I was straight, and then I took
the vaccine and now look at me, and then then
I got a booster. Now I'm non binary. So watch
out for that visor. It'll get you good, Like the

(17:58):
intersection of anti vax in homophobia. I'm not even sure
if I'm supposed to laugh? Am I allowed to laugh
at the out? You sure I'm gonna laugh later? You
didn't get me a camera. So that's the positive benefits
of the show. Let's flip it to the negative side,
because you know, a lot of groups, a lot of

(18:19):
organizations try to uc shows to springboard and justify their
hatred inscrib has. The exposure from these shows also opened
it up more to hatred and discrimination for viewers, you know,
like I know, like like just talk to me about
we're here, Like what's that like? Just being out on
set shooting? Because if I am a daily show correspondent

(18:42):
at something where like I was at a pro gun
rally and they was not fucking with your boy. I
can't imagine. I can imagine. So what's that like when
you're out in places like Jackson, Mississippi? Yeah, in full
d with cameras, Like, what type of pushback if you
faced with this show? I think they really what people

(19:04):
don't appreciate appreciate is um, the reason why Jordan Clapper
can go into these spaces is because they don't know
that he is not one of them until he exposes himself.
But when you but you know, but when Roy walks
into this boys, when Roy would they were like, we

(19:24):
now we know, we know you ain't one of us.
You need to have a camera, a camera and you black? No,
absolutely not. But they'll go up to Jordan Clapper because
he's white, and he's tall and and and and and
you know, and women love a tall white man. They
will go up to that. They'll go up and tell
them their whole life story. Do they realize that he's
and he's like before and I'm happy go do that shit, Clipper.

(19:47):
We happily every time they haven't meet me like we
think clippers should go go do that one whenever I'm
on the streets, like I just had an instance in Jackson, Mississippi,
that is on the second episode of season three. If
we're here, where I'm I'm just I'm just walking down
the street like I'm I'm not even in drag, I'm
just walking on the street looking and then all of

(20:08):
a sudden they're like, oh, they're well, there's one of them.
They're queers. So they started yelling at me from across
the street just for walking around, like they're throwing completely
based and accusations at me. Um and they but this
sounds like a loane. This sounds like it because it
doesn't sound like these are just one or two syllable
slurs you're saying. It was spitting whole phrases at well, no,

(20:30):
they were saying stuff like that. They didn't call me
a fag at per se. But what they did do
they called me a They called me a pedophile, they
called me a pervert, they called me a creep. All
by the way, all I was doing was just standing
on the street corner. I mean I was holding a
purse something. I was gay, But I was just standing
on the street corner holding a purse. And from that,
from that, from seeing that they ascertained, they came to

(20:53):
the inclusion I was a pedophile, a pervert. I was
up to no good. I wanted their kids. And I
was like, I'm literally just on the I was actually
at the time, I was we had just finished filming
and they haven't put the cameras down yet because they
always linger around a little bit. I was like, I'm
gonna gets my ice cream run on street. I want
to get ice cream. I was literally just looking for
ice cream. And then I got like, you know, verbally
assaulted by these by these guys. So I go up

(21:13):
and I was like, I'm gonna talk to him. I'm
gona actually give you guys little I'm gonna talk and
see what's going on. And of course they didn't want to.
They don't really want to talk. They just wanted to
sling their bit ral at me um and call me names.
But but I was interesting. It was maybe like two
or three of them, but the interesting about them, and
they actually weren't. It's not like they were being supportive.
Even in Jackson. Even the folks in Jackson were like,

(21:35):
can you what what is wrong with y'all? Like we're not.
They're like, everybody in Jackson ain't doing this. This is them,
We're good country folk. Like yeah, like this has it
gotten beyond that? Has it been any like type of
death threats or threats of violence we have had, we
haven't had. We've had threats of violence for sure on

(21:56):
our show, and luckily we do have security detail everywhere
we go. You'll find out an episode one, we were
going to have a reading of this book Changel and
my dragons are going to read some books of these kids.
And then they decided that they didn't want that to happen,
so they called and threatened to They didn't threaten to
shoot the place up, but they said, if you allow
this to happen, and we will show up and we
carry and we'll cause a scene. So it was like

(22:19):
kind of like veiled like that. That was like we're
not saying, we're not saying we're gonna kill you, but
we're saying that we have guns, we carry and we'll
be there. So basically they threatened to do what actually
happened for real in Columbus, Ohio, when there was a
drag show and a bunch of right wingers showed up
open carrying to intimidate people from ever coming to the show,
and the show ultimately was canceled. Yeah, and it happened

(22:41):
again recently. A couple of days ago, some people showed
up to a drag event with guns and weapons, which
is so I never thought, like, my adulthood is mostly
in New York City, so being around people who were like,
because New Yorkers like, I've walked the streets in full
drag for practically every hour of the day. I've done

(23:02):
something at brunch, I've done something that I've gone home
at three six am. I've done the whole gamut. And
New Yorkers don't give a fuck. They don't care about you.
They're not looking at you, they're not trying to find
out what they do. Want to go to their plays
and get back. These people are going out of their way,
They're driving miles and miles and miles to do what
I guess they think is right. So then to that point,

(23:26):
then let's talk about how politicians have been able to
levy that vitriol and try and turn it into votes
and legislation and all of this nonsense. Like we've we've
seen a wave of anti trans bills across the country,
and now Republican lawmakers in several states are trying to
propose legislation to ban miners from even showing up to

(23:47):
the drag shows. Like all that reading to the kids,
that would be you would literally go to jail for that.
What do you think is the motivation behind those types
of bills? And like why now? Why now? All of
a sudden does there seem to be an uptick in
this type of legislation from the right trying to get
children banned from drag shows? Is it is just a
sneaky ploy in my opinion, from right wing conservatives to

(24:11):
make it seem like all drag queens want kids at
their shows. Most of us don't want your kids at
your show. Does your can't have a dollar and you
can't have money at the tip, We don't want your
kid at our show. There are some people who want
to read, who want to read to kids, but most
drag queens are not making I'm gonna like I don't
make any content for children. I don't, I don't. It's
like it's like stand up comedy. Most stand up comedians

(24:32):
don't want kids at their shows. Now, there are some
comedians who make comedy that will be suitable for children. Yes,
there are some comedians who make and it is a
very small It is a tiny group of comedians. Brian Reagan. Yeah,
there's like three niggas out there making making comedy for kids.

(24:54):
You know what I mean. But the truth is most
comedians don't want to look down and see a kid
at their show, and most rectly the same way. But
when you are um, but then when we interviews, now,
even even though I don't want kids at my show,
I now have to defend white kids should be allowed
at drag shows, even though I don't want d even
though I don't want kids in my show. This is crazy.

(25:17):
This is It's such a sneaky little tactic that they use.
So now I'm defending something that I don't even want.
But I think there are some drag artists who are
completely appropriate for children. I'm not one of them. That's
why I don't have kids at my shows. Okay, so
then if the kid angle is to smoke screen, what
do you think is the real reasons for the legislation? Transphobia,
transphobia and misogyny, and trans misogyny, it is all just

(25:41):
thinly veiled homophobia. A transphobia and attempts to push trans
people into non existence. First, they don't want trans people
in the bathrooms, So now now you can't use bathroom
unless you're at home. You have to wait to you
go home to use the bathroom, which is bullshit. We've
all had to rush to use the bathroom somewhere, running
to some use the bathroom real quick. And then they say, well,

(26:01):
you can't mention any of it at school if you're
if you're trans at school, you better be hiding. So
now if you're a teacher, if you're a student, if
you're if you're a principal, if you're a janitor, you
cannot mention that you're trans or even that you know
trans people because the things like they don't say gay bill,
and now they don't want you to be able to
be to work anywhere. They're trying to just push you
back into hiding in a close because they because they
don't want to see you in public at all. And

(26:22):
it starts with the bathroom. They put you out of
the classroom, they push you out of this, they push
you out of that, they push you out of that,
and they by the time they push you out of
all these places in spaces you are just existing in
your home so they don't have to see you. The
right also now this whole idea about the grooming part
of it, A lot of these bills are around, Like

(26:44):
originally it was the bathroom. They're gonna try and get
you in the bathroom. Oh that didn't work, okay? Were
they trying to turn your kids to know one of them?
Let me se right now, the most the most dangerous
thing that can happen at a drag show is a
conservative might show up with a gun and kill someone.
It's not the drag queens. It's not the people coming
to see the drag queen. The dangerous, most danger thing
at a gay bar is that a conservative might show

(27:07):
up with a gun and fucking kill you. It's needless
to say this type of rhetoric from the politicians, from
from the right wing incites a degree of violence against
this community. Like even just this year, I think I
get the stats right as over one hundred and twenty
protests and significant threats and forty seven states so far

(27:28):
this year just against LGBTQ and drag events this year.
What is the response to that from the drag community,
is it just security, Like, what can you do to
continue to foster a safe environment where people can be themselves? Well,
I think that you know when when when things happen
like what what like what happened in this recent shooting

(27:49):
in this in the in the gay club recently, and
in the walmart Colorado Springs, the Colorado Springs and in
that walmart. They call them the shooting, but they don't
call them terrorists. Don't know why they never get they did,
never get labeled as terrorists. It is terror, it's domestic
terror is an attempt to scare you out of leaving
your home again. Remember the whole goals to get you
to stay away so they never have to see you.
You can't even go hang out in spots, spaces that

(28:10):
are just for you. Now, they want you to just
hang out just in your home, go away, never be
seen out in public ever anywhere. And the guy who
did the shoot in Colorado Springs, you know, his dad
came forward and is saying stuff like I'm just so
glad to find that he's not gay. When I heard
he was in a gate club, I was just met that.
I thought he's gonna be gay. It's like, you're not
worthy that your son killed five people allegedly. You're mat

(28:31):
that he might have been gay in the process. Like baby,
get your get your priorities together. And you know, drag
artists are not going anywhere. So I hate to break
the news, see Mary, but drag has been around for
a very long time before anyone who's alive now has
been breathing. Drag has been around for a very very
very long time. Gender binding has been around for a

(28:53):
very long time. Trans people have been around for a
very very long time. And and we're not going anywhere
anytime soon. You have given us more than enough of
your time. The show is We're here. You can see
that on HBO HBO Max, Bob the Drag Queen, thank
you for going beyond the scenes with us my pleasure,

(29:14):
and please check out Roy and his new drag queer
and his new drag name Beyond the Scenes. After the break,
I'll be joined by guest channing Joseph and Frank Decarro,
who will give us some insight into the origins and
history of drag. We'll be right back. Welcome back to
Beyond the Scenes now. I just chatted with Bob the

(29:34):
Drag Queen about his personal journey and the importance of
representation on screen and all of the attacks that conservatives
have on drag and that entire culture. But now let's
talk about the long history of drag. I'm joined now
by two guests who are gonna help break this down
for us. First, I'm joined by journalists and professor of
journalism at Princeton University Channing. Joseph Channing. Welcome to the show,

(30:00):
to be here, Roy, thanks for having me. Might add Chinning.
Your head phones are stunning. Thank you. I'm also joined
by the author of drag Combing through the Big Wigs
of show Business, Frank Decarro. Frank, how you doing. Thank
you for joining us as well. Thank you for having it.
It's such a pleasure to be here. Now this question
is for both of you, but Frank, I'll throw it

(30:21):
to you first. Give us an overview of the origins
of drag and just where the term drag comes from.
Let's just start with the basics. Well, a lot of
times they say that the word drag comes from a
woman's clothes dragging on the ground. I don't know if
I believe that, and hopefully chanting as a better perspective
on that, but I will say that as long as

(30:42):
a guy has been on the stage, and as long
as being on the stage or being in public has
been popular entertainment and drawn a crowd, somebody has been
cross dressing. To use the oldest posible term you can
think of for that, Shakespearean tradition has men playing female
rose Kabuki tradition has that. The English pantomimes which still

(31:06):
exist today every holiday season has the pantomime dame in it.
There's always was someone dressing, either a man dressing as
a woman or a woman dressing as a man when
we were thinking in the most binary of terms, but
that's always been a part of entertainment. And the drag queen,
let's say that the sort of multimedia drag queen has

(31:28):
existed at least since the early twentieth century, and perhaps
even before. There's evidence now that the first drag queen
may have been a freed and slave person. So, and
that's a whole other thing that we're all looking at
now and wondering more about. But there was a guy
in the early in the teens, that nineteen twelve who

(31:52):
got his own Broadway theater named after him, and he
was one of the highest paid entertainers in show business
named Julian Elton, and everyone kind of looks at Julian
Elton's just sort of the grandmother of the mall because
she was kind of the rude Paul of nineteen twelve.
She had a magazine to give women tips on how
to look beautiful. She was in movies playing you know,

(32:14):
a spy who goes behind enemy lines dressed as a woman.
She was on Broadway doing the singing her own songs
in drag and uh and was hugely popular and U
So anyone that says drag is sort of a new
phenomenon is really speaking in untruth. There's a popular meme

(32:34):
going around now that says, if you know that, you've
always been entertained by drag, And then they show of
course Tutsie and bosom buddies and some like an hot
every movie that we've ever seen in the twentieth century
with dragon it and so like you can't say, oh
my god, these drag queens are so dangerous when you've
been laughing at them for one hundred and years plus.

(32:57):
Channing feeling some of the gaps there like that old
school since because you know, I know, there was also
a time where women weren't allowed to Could you believe
that women wasn't allowed at a time to do a
thing and men had to take on the roles of
women in theater because we just we don't know where
to find any women actors. I guess I'll put on

(33:19):
some lipstick. Absolutely. So one of the things that most
people don't realize is that the way we use the
term drag today is very loose. We're thinking, as Frank
pointed out, in binary terms, a man dressing as a woman,
woman dressing as a man, and it's sort of applied indiscriminately.

(33:39):
Whether we're talking about, as Frank pointed out, Shakespearean theater
or kabuki, we're talking we're calling it drag when those
are actually stoparate traditions, and it's important, I think, to
specify the specific differences between those cultural cultural traditions. There's
actually an American tradition of drag which does go back

(34:02):
to the culture of African Americans formerly enslaved African Americans
in Washington, DC, UM in the eighteen eighties UM, and
from that point to today we can we can trace
the origin of the ballroom culture and vogueing um an
all the way to RuPaul's Drag Race. It's sort of

(34:25):
has maintained the same basic format in terms of basically
a competition where where where black people meet and celebrate, um,
celebrate each other and compete for the prize. But back then,
the first drag Queen was named William Dorsey Swan, and
the culture of DC after the Civil War there was

(34:46):
this there was this tradition of celebrating freedom. Of course,
you're you're now free, you no longer enslaved, celebrate your
fur up. Yeah, yeah, and absolutely, and in that in
that period of time, one of the big ways that
celebrated was to us to have a parade called Emancipation Day,

(35:09):
the Emancipation Day in DC, there were these beautiful women
who would who would essentially wear these usually flower covered
dresses or um or crowns, and they'd be part of
the parade. They'd represent the embodiment, the personification of liberty
for black people, and they were called queens. The first

(35:30):
drag queen, William Dorsey Swan, actually dubbs himself the first
drag Queen because the balls were already being called drag
drag balls or drag parties or drag dances or just drags,
but he decided to say, I am the queen of
this ball. So actually adopting the term queen is a

(35:52):
way of connecting m the sort of celebration of queerness
with emancipation from enslavement. It's actually there's always been this
connections in the United States context between African American emancipation
and drag, which is not something that people talk about. Um.

(36:12):
So that's something that I like to point out because
as we know, so this is day there's all there's
there's lots of discussion about drag, queens misappropriating or arrogating
to themselves, you know, various aspects of black culture or

(36:32):
black women's expression. And actually that's that's been that's been
dating back over one hundred years. You've cracked a can
on something that I want to that I want to
go back to for a second, because I want to
talk about some of the common misconceptions and stereotypes about
drag that you wish layman like myself were a little
more informed on. And Frank, I want to get your
answer in this as well. But first let's go back

(36:54):
to the distinction between cross dressing and drag. I'm from Alabama,
and I work on the side of town that was
the more free, willing side of Birmingham called five Points South,
and that was my first introduction as a teenager, and
to every other culture from skate culture to gay culture,
to tattoos and nose. So everybody was just called a

(37:15):
cross dresser. This is Birmingham in the eighties. There was
not the level of specificity and understanding that we have now.
So let's just start with cross dressing and drag and
what the differences are there, and then what are some
of the other misconceptions you think people get wrong about
the culture. I think cross dressing it has been a
pejorative term, but it is a descriptive term, and it

(37:37):
describes a sort of conception of a man picking on
a woman's a woman's appearance, and it actually applies to
different kinds of cross dressing. It applies to African traditions
and kabuki and Shakespearean theater. All those really could be
described as cross dressing, whereas drag is more at least now,

(38:00):
it's more of a celebration of um gender expression, and
I think breaking out of gender roles, right. I think
if you look at for example, Shakespearean theater. For whatever reason,
they didn't have women for throws. It wasn't about It
wasn't a decision based on self expression or a desire
to explore explore your gender, explore ways of how you

(38:25):
want to see yourself right or how you see yourself. Um,
it was it was more sort of there were other
reasons why men were dressing is wearing dresses and so on,
where it's dragon is more of a celebration, okaya, Like
Martin Lawrence dressing up was not Martin to be fined
with his own gender and expression. It was just now,

(38:45):
I'm gonna put on a wig and some lipstick and
crack some jokes. At least not as far as we know.
But you know, before that, there was someone like Flip Wilson.
And while it was done, you know, in prime time
Flip Wilson for people who don't know, he was the

(39:06):
first African American comedian performer to have his own variety
show that was a hit. I mean, there were others
who had who had done specials and who had done
short things, but Flip was on for like four years.
And his drag Yeah, he was friendly and a storyteller,
but he was he would do this character named Geraldine

(39:28):
Jones who had a boyfriend named Killer, but that never
stopped her from flirting with every man from and I'm
not kidding Bill Cosby to O. J. Simpson to Bing Crosby. Okay,
he was hugely popular. But what he did that was
so different from Channa name was he played a character

(39:49):
who believed she was beautiful and kind of was sexy
and was sort of a feminist character. And people flipped
out over that in terms of day liked it, but
also because it really was different. She wore Pucci print dresses,
she had great gams, she she was kind of the
person who influenced Ru Paul in many ways. And Ru

(40:11):
admits that who's my age? And so you know, I
mean it was you know, she was watching the same
TV I was watching and flip kind of in was
the introduction to drag for a lot of people. What's
different and what's important about him, and it goes to
the misconceptions about drag is he was not making fun

(40:31):
of women at all. And I think that some people
want to say that, oh, Drag is misogynist, and some
of it when it's played like look how ugly I
am and every comedian is guilty of doing that at
ow point, but he A lot of drag comes out
of an appreciation for female tropes and for female characteristics,

(40:54):
but then it exaggerates them to Jessica Rabbit proportions. You know.
I mean, it's if nobody really looks No woman really
looks like Bianca Dela Rio unless she's in Drag two,
you know. I mean, it's like and now chanting as
you know, you can be assist gender woman, you can
be assist gender, you can be any, you can come
out of the womb whatever. But if you've got too

(41:16):
much fabulous, you can be a drag queen now. And
and it doesn't matter what you're plumbing looks like, and
thank Heaven, as long as when that light goes on
you're funny and glamorous. It doesn't matter what your looks like.
And that's kind of an exciting thing. I think. I
think that's fabulous. And I agree with with frank Um that,
you know, performance performers like like Flip Bolson were really important,

(41:40):
and I think, you know, looking at looking at that
aspect of a drag like the performer of aspect, it
hasn't always been performance for like a public audience. That's
one point which I'll get to. But the the the
important point I think is performers performs is like gerallyne Jones.
They were important because, um, I think they were part

(42:00):
of you know, at least for a couple of decades
of beginning of the twentieth century, when drag balls, um
sort of became more open to the public. They were
a way of showing, I think, straight to gender people,
how fabulous you could be, uh, you know, how fabulous

(42:21):
a man could be wearing heels and wearing a wig
and so on. Um that it it wasn't purely about comedy,
was also about showing confidence and um, showing sort of
just bending a little bit the the expectations of gender roles.
And now I think, you know, they're completely bent, which
I think is a positive thing. Um but but but

(42:45):
but I think you know, when when if you look back,
for example, of the nineteenth century, balls of balls from
the eighteen eighties, those were secret events. Those were people
getting together in each other's houses, putting on a show
for each other. It was the community thing. It only
really became sort of a thing that the general public

(43:06):
was allowed into in the in the twenties or so,
and at that point, um, people were really you know,
people were interested to see that there were thousands of
people would gather to see drag balls because they were
such hunger for it. And I guess, you know, it's
still the same way. People are hungry to see how
gender can be reinterpreted and expressed in different ways that

(43:27):
that they have been taught were wrong or immoral and
so on. I certainly was taught that. I think that's
what gets to why people love drag is through the artifice,
you get to this tremendous truth about humanity and you all.
But it's also incredibly entertaining. It's not like a lesson
in gender studies. It's it's sort of already is, but

(43:49):
it's sort of talk about the spoonful of shirtar that
makes the medicine go down. It's really entertaining, and you're like, oh,
wait a minute, we're not all uh, you know, there is.
It's showing you the spectrum of gender in a way
and and you're you know, but in a safe way.
And not only was were drag balls a safe space,

(44:10):
but you had people like Milton Burl, who was the
fought you know, he's mister Television. When they turned the
TV's on, he was the guy that got people buy
TV and he did drag almost every week, and he said,
oh yeah, he went as a kid, I'd sneak into
the drag balls. And so you're sort of like, wait
a minute, So you're twelve or fifteen and you're you know,
you're sneaking into drag balls, you know, and typically you know, stealing,

(44:32):
you know, as as so much entertainment is. That's sort
of like, oh good, I'll get the gig because I'm
the white guy. But but I'll go learn everything you
know from the from the black performers, as so many
people do and did. So when you talk about researching
for your book and channing, you low key being very
humble because I know a lot of that Swan research

(44:53):
that we even know now in the zeitgeist is because
you went to digging and all the truth about that
person loves that about ten fifteen years ago you went digging.
So both of you are very verse in the history
of drag. But in your research of the history of
this culture, how does the black and LGBTQ plus community

(45:14):
fit into that history? I know we talked a little
bit about DC, but give me some other ways where
they fit into that culture or if there's been erasure. Well,
I think that one of the one important thing to
point out is you know, and just to pick it
back from off of what Frank was saying, drag balls
have been a safe place for lots of people to

(45:35):
express themselves and to be seen and to and to
meet each other and to make connections and so on.
But they've also been really dangerous for a lot of
folks too. Um, you know, over and over again throughout history,
in particularly mean certainly in the early twentieth century and

(45:55):
in the nineteenth century, drag balls were constantly um are
veiled and rated by the police, and people were thrown
in jail, oftentimes on really trumped up charges or or
just no charges. We just thought, we just think you're
a suspicious person. We're going to throw him in jail
because you're you're a man wearing a dress. Um. So

(46:15):
it's the the safety part is also the other side
of it is that it's been a really dangerous thing.
People have people have felt a need to express themselves
in this particular way, and um, the authorities have always
looked at it as a sort of dangerous thing. And
in the in Swan's era, one time he was arrested

(46:38):
and thrown in jail, and the prosecutor you know, sort
of admitted in the prosecution documents of the prosecutor admitted, well,
typically we wouldn't we wouldn't send send send Swan to
you know, prison for what we what we charged him with,
which was keeping at disorderly house, which is something that

(46:58):
usually something to do with prostitute yea sex work. But
he said, we're trying to keep him off the streets
because of his quote evil example to the community. And
um and it essentially says, you know, because because he
is involved with with uh sex with other men. So
the authorities looked at Swans drag balls. This is Swan,

(47:21):
the queen of drag, Swans drag balls, as as as
something that people found so alluring that they want to copy,
because that's why he was an evil an evil example
to the community. Um, the community which you're gonna politic
community and and and that is exactly what we're seeing
today with with with many many politicians and other and

(47:44):
other other folks you know, protesting drag drag drag brunches
in drag, story time and UM protesting UM, you know,
discussions of being trans in schools. Uh. And it's it's
a similar kind of it's you know, it's it's it
is the same kind of you know, policing literally policing

(48:08):
UM and also culturally policing the ways that we express
ourselves and who we are. If you don't fit into
those roles, it's considered dangerous and and we're and the
straight sets people are so really scared that that their
kids are going to be queer like us. So then
when we talk about that activism and that resistance culture

(48:30):
within this community, Frank, let's go back fifty years ago
to Stonewall in New York City and talk a little
bit about that as being a bit of a pivot
point in terms of drag becoming a little more mainstream
or a little more in the face of people, because
it merged perfectly with the emergence of disco music as well.

(48:51):
So yeah, exactly. Well it's interesting to me because I'm
calling about disco gay. I'm just saying that you can
dance to that shit no matter what you're inventation is
some good ass music. Keep going, Frank, no, I was.
You can say, my next book is about the history
of disco, So yes, it was, but it's it'll be

(49:11):
my take on it, you know. And then and then Channing,
you do the actual study of the stuff. I'll do
the here's the buffet of the glitter, and then you
serve the entree of the meat potatoes at Shoeman. No oh, no,
I just make the dessert. Yes, you could do anything

(49:32):
you want. Um. I was gonna say that the Stonewall
for people who don't. I mean, more people know now
than used to, but there are a lot of people
who still go what is that? Stone Wall was the
turning point at the beginning of the gay rights movement
in America? Uh And there were things before that, the
Black cat and and Compton's Cafeteria out in California. But

(49:52):
Stonewall is the moment in nineteen sixty nine where gays
fall back. And despite what's a mainstream move these will
tell you it was not the cute little white kid
from the Midwest who was throwing bricks. It was trans
people who didn't even call themselves that that. They call
themselves transvestites and activists, not even trans people really. But

(50:13):
there's people like Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera and that
Stormy Delarvae that was I was like Channing helped me
at least the drag King who was of all Stormy Delarbry,
they were the ones who were doing it. And honestly,
with any movement, the people who have the least and

(50:38):
the most to lose at the same time are the
ones who are the bravest, the ones who don't fit
in the closet and also are like, I'm not going
in there. I've seen with how dark it is in
the closet. It stinks. I'm not going to be in there.
But the ones who really, you know, who can't hide,

(51:00):
often tend to be the people who wouldn't hide even
if they could. They tend to that personality type of
oh no, I'm not taking I'm not a second classicizen.
Look at me, I'm fabulous, you know, and they're they're
wearing their their look on the street. Those are the
ones who often are the bravest and the toughs. And
that's why when some of you know, with what's going on,
nigger sort of like, I won't pick on the drag

(51:22):
queen if I were you, you know, that's that's like,
you know, it's like if you're gonna go, you know,
I wouldn't heckle the insult comic. You know. It's it's
sort of they'll they'll shooshkabob you. You know, it's sort
of it's like you think you're picking on the weak one,
but it's like they could outrun you. They can outrun
you in platform meals, you know, and and and then
take one off and beat the crap out of you
with it. You know, these are tough people, and yet

(51:45):
they look so glamorous and so beautiful while they're doing it.
But um, I think that that was what happened at Stonewall,
was the ones throwing the bricks at first were and
and then forming a kick line. Is that? And I'm
going to use the word gay the way I like
to use it, as if it's a great thing, the
greatest thing you could say, what's the gays? They formed
a kick line in the streets, so they're doing a

(52:06):
rockhead number against the police. That is the gayest thing
you can possibly do. And yet it's sort of like
the number it's not only gorgeous legs, that's like twenty
middle fingers you know. I mean, it's just it is
the ultimate. It's like, oh, you want us to be
gay a brick the police would have rather a brick
be thrown at, because how do you react to that

(52:28):
if you're sort of like, oh, yeah, you're gonna we're
gonna get arrested. But well if I go on, I'm
gonna at least look good doing it. And then you
start a kick line that that to me is the gayest,
most powerful thing. It's sort of like, oh, I'll show you.
And that's why I mean, drag today is leading the
cultural conversation, but I honestly the Republicans want to shut
it down, and the proud poises are like, you know

(52:50):
who you're taking on. It's like these these people do
these are not mincing f words, you know, I mean
you know they're they're these queens are kick your eye,
they'll clean your clock, you know, I mean they know
how to do it because they've been threatened from the
moment they came out of the closet or emerged from
the womb. Perhaps, so when we talk about the middle

(53:11):
fingers to the authorities then versus the middle fingers to
politicians now and a lot of the policies that have
starting to be passed to suppress this type of culture.
I don't think you're gonna be able to legislate out
anything that has real influence on society. Talk to me
a little bit, and Channing, I'll start with you. Talk

(53:33):
to me a little bit about the influence that drag
has had on beauty and fashion. I already talked to
Bob about television, but let's talk about pop culture and
just general beauty and fashion and the way drag is
influenced that even music Hill. You know, the first thought
that I had when you asked the question is Beyonce,
of course, you know, and her latest album Renaissance. There

(53:55):
are many references to balls and to you know, the
category is and tends across the board. And if you're
listening to the lyrics of the songs like like Alien
Superstar and like Heated UM and so it sort of
shows that like an artist at that at that level
is engaging with with drag. We've drag culture, history of

(54:18):
drag culture and as well as UM. I think I
think drag as a as a influence on beauty has
just made it more okay to experiment with you know,
makeup with with different forms of attire um for all people. Right,
it's made it okay for men to be a little

(54:38):
more from fam and more fabulous, and it's made it
okay for women to be much more fabulous if they want. Um.
It's dragged. The reason why I have like we were
an avocado mask at night some nights? When is that
the reason the word exfoliate? You could probably you probably
do a thesis drawing the line. But those when RuPaul

(55:04):
got the mac Cosmetics gig in the in the early nineties,
that was shocking to a lot of people. A lot
of this stuff was shocking back and now it takes
a lot to shock anybody. But back in the day
when RuPaul is suddenly like, oh wait, look you know what,
I'm going to be the spokesmodel for Viva Glawn and

(55:24):
she looked gorgeous. You know, the drag bus has left.
You just gotta get on it to stand in the
way or try to fight it will ultimately be unsuccessful.
And it's also shortsighted because it's started. Do you you
really The upsetting thing to me when people protest drag
meed story hour, it's like so that those little kids
that feel different for whatever reason, and like Sparkle, whether

(55:48):
whatever their gender, they don't get the same treat They
don't get to be happy, they don't get to see
someone in a book. They don't. You know, it's very
upsetting to me to see lives being threatened, drag lives
and gay lives, queer lives being threatened when it's preposterous.
You know, if drag means are groomers, it's like, well,

(56:10):
they're not groomers. They're hairstylists, they're makeup artists, they're not
they're not groomers in the in the pedophile sense. They're
groomers and that that your nails will look fabulous by
the end of it, you know, I mean, get stupid.
It's just a dumb argument to say they're groomers. It's like, yeah,
that's that's why people do drag. It's like, no, that's
why clowns become clowns and locate across base and then

(56:33):
eat you or whatever. Clowns do. You know, it's those
are two different people to different people. I think queer
folks are still a minority, but we're just a powerful,
influential minority because of because of how badass we are. Um,
you know, I always always say in ninety sixty nine

(56:55):
was still won't happen. It was sort of a surprise
the people that suddenly the queer folks could fight back.
And the reality is there there was all kinds of unseen,
invisible work that had to get done to build a
community that felt confident enough to fight back. So there
were decades of work behind behind that decision to fight

(57:18):
back on that day. And now we've had another fifty
years of organizing to the point where we're like, there's
no way we're not We're not going to get back
at the closet. We're not going to go back backwards. So, yes,
they're protesting, but we're not only a cultural force. We're
just too I think, too powerful to organize a community.

(57:39):
Now it doesn't make sense, it's it's irrational to to
go against us. Oh what do you all think the
future of drag? Where does this go? Because at this
small bald, this pebble was rolling down the heel and
now it's a big boulder. Where does this go next?

(57:59):
How soon to the drag president is one of masking.
Oh that's a great one. Um. When we have to
give Ruddy. Do we have to give Rudy Giuliani credit
for dressing in drag as Rudia? I hope not. I
don't because he was an ugly dragqueen. That was an
ugly drag queen from everywhere. Yeah, it's hard to get

(58:25):
mascara out of here, but he managed to do it.
I think it's gonna look like, uh, just just this
amazing buffet of talent. I think that it's gonna come
down to how good are you at it? Not what
you know, whether you're dressed as a man or a woman,
or a horror icon where you're covered in blood or

(58:47):
you're covered in sequence. I think it can be anything.
I think, uh, it's drag kids who are so cool
with themselves at eight or ten that they're they're they're
dressing in drag and performing. Not just oh mommy, I
feel different, but they're really like, oh, I'm going to
be fearsome, go do this. And you know the thing

(59:09):
that the moment in my life when I realized stuff
was changing was when I was speaking to a group
of young people and I said, well, I came out
when I was sixteen in nineteen seventy eight, and the
kids said why did you wait so long? And I
and I was like, oh my god, things have really
chased sixteen. I was like in the advanced placement program

(59:29):
for K and it was late seventies. It was like,
you know, you know you you're gay or forever? Of
course I'm a gay, you know. And I think the
future of drag is is going to be gorgeous and
fabulous and diverse. That's one of the best things about
Drag two. I didn't say this before. You know, people

(59:51):
are always saying we have to in entertainment, we have
to strive for diversity. With drag, all you have to
do is tell the truth. If you do, you know,
and maybe it's that way with everything, but if you
just show who was doing cool stuff, you don't have
to go looking for diversity because it's all there in
your face. It's it's gorgeous, it's like something everybody was
participating it in their own wonderful way, so it's not

(01:00:13):
forced in any way. Just get out there and tell
the truth and you'll have people of every background and
color and creed and type. You know, Jenny, what does
it look like to you? I think um drag is
a huge factor in um what will become a complete

(01:00:36):
transformation of how we think about sex and gender in
the future, how we talk about sex and gender, how
we think about it will has already completely changed, right,
but in the future it will be so core to
who we are to talk about diversity of being an
onn binary or trans, or the diversity of gender expression

(01:00:58):
all those. You know, we'll have new words because the
words always change, right I think, but it will be
completely transformed. One of the things I think that most
people sort of don't think about our realize is like,
it's not just that thing. You used to be old
words and now we have cool words. Like in Swan's time,
it was you know, you were a queen or you weren't.

(01:01:20):
It was about what you were actually was about whether
you were participating in balls or not, whether you were
winning the balls, whether you were a queen, and then
later you were you know, other scholars talk about like
whether you were a fairy or a pansy. And then
sort of after World War Two it became this homosexual
heterosexual slicing. And now we're you know, now we're much

(01:01:42):
more diverse in terms of being panned or fluid, and
everybody's sort of becoming more exactly you know in binary, transgender, queer,
gender fluid. We have so many more options, and I
think in the future we will either have many more
options than that or will just be so part of
who we are that it becomes irrelevant in this sort

(01:02:03):
of way. And it's it's important, I think, just to
realize that we're strong enough to get through this and
we will and no matter what they do, all of
the way we think about about our our gender and
our and our sexuality will will completely transform. Well. I

(01:02:24):
hope that the future drag does not include more of
the ignorance and laws and hatred that your community has
been dealing with. The two of you are on the
spearhead educating dumb motherfucker's on what the right things are
and how to be more knowledgeable citizens. I thank you Channing,
I thank you Frank, and also shout out to Bob

(01:02:47):
for coming on earlier. That's all the time we have
for today. Play my theme music. Explore more shows from
The Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show
wherever you get your podcast. Watch The Daily Show weeknights
at eleven tenth Central on Comedy Central and stream full
episodes anytime on Fairmount. Plus this has been a Comedy

(01:03:09):
Central podcast.

All Episodes

The Forgotten Queer History of Drag (feat. Bob the Drag Queen) | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

True Crime Tonight

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Forgotten Queer History of Drag (feat. Bob the Drag Queen) | Beyond the Scenes