January 15, 2023 • 42 mins
Conservatives in America have a habit of citing Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to score a variety of political points. Some have even used his words to undermine antiracist education and critical race theory. In this episode, Dr. Ibram X. Kendi and Daily Show writer Randall Otis join host Roy Wood Jr. to discuss how conservatives pervert MLK’s words, why he’s so central to America’s civil rights education, and how to properly honor his legacy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Roy Wood Jr. And to honor Martin Luther
King Junior Day, we're revisiting a beyond the Scenes episode
about the life and legacy of Martin Luther King Jr.
In this episode, I sit down with dr Abra, Mexicandy
and Daily Show writer randall Otis, and we discuss how
conservatives have a habit of sighting MLK to score a
variety of political points, some even us his words to
undermine anti racist education and critical race theory. We also
(00:23):
discussed the commercialization of the holiday and how to properly
honor Martin Luther King Junior's legacy. I'm looking at you.
I better not see y'all. Let know MLK Mattress Day
sales heavy Listen, Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This
(00:44):
is the podcast that goes deeper into savings and topics
that have originally aired on the Daily Show at Trevor Noah.
I am Roy Wood Junior, per as usual this podcast.
You know, you don't beyond the scenes. It's like, this
is like when you order a milkshakee and they make
too much milkshare and they give you that little extra
bit of milkshake. You're not like they eat the milkshake
(01:04):
and then the cup they made the milkshake in. It's
got a little bit of a corner. That's a Southern
measurement of liquid. They give you a little extra corner
of milkshake. Is two milkshakes for the price of one.
That's what this podcast is like. We are overflowing with
informational goodness that might give you a brain freeze. Now,
in honor of Dr Reverend Martin Luther the King Day,
(01:25):
we're taking a look at the life and legacy of
Dr Martin Luther King, Jr. The appropriation of his message,
his influence in today's pop culture, and all things of
that nature. Today I'm joined by Daily Show writer Randall Otis.
Randall as always great to have you own. How you
doing pimping? I'm doing good. You know, got covids, so
(01:47):
I don't have to worry about that for another month
at least. Well, you know what they say, Randall, You're
not a real New York City stand up comedian if
you haven't caught COVID, So welcome to the party, pal.
It's also I'm also joined by New York Times bestselling
author of the book How to Be An Anti racist
(02:07):
and also stamped from the beginning the Definitive History of
racist ideas in America. He is a historian and the
director of Boston University's Center for Anti Racist Research. Professor
Abram X. Kendy. Professor Kendy, how are you doing to day.
I'm good. I'm still still running from from COVID, but
(02:30):
I'm trying. Well. If it's anything like the NYPD, eventually
it will stop you for questioning. We're avoiding it. Thank
you so much for being on the show. Before we
get into the topic at hand today, which is Dr
Martin Luther, Reverend the King, and the way a lot
(02:50):
of people cherry picked pieces of his message to fit
their narrative. You have dedicated your life to trying to
educate and get people to understand here's how we correct,
Here's how we reverse this terrible cancer in this country.
What the hell do you do to relax? Man? What
is your what is like? You have people? You know?
(03:10):
Do you know people? What's your spy routine? What's your woosa?
What does Professor Kindy do to unwind and just take
a breath from this? So that's the same great helps
uh each night? Um? I think I also try not
to take things personally, and so certainly when people are
(03:33):
degrading black people, I don't take it personally as if
there's something wrong with with me. People like me, I
recognize them as a problem. But even when people are
personally attacking sort of me and my work from bad faith,
I also just try not to take it personally and
try to be focused, you know, in transformation. So when
(03:55):
we talk about Martin Luther King Jr's birthday and the
fact that it's now a national holiday, it's it's are
they are they observing it yet in Arizona? Are we
still forty nine states county? I don't know. It's like
everyone knows that I have a dream speech, and that's
the one that's kind of the it's the most quoted
(04:16):
of all of his many many quotables. But that was
only a small part of his complex legacy. Um, I'll
start with you, Professor Kendy. What parts of Dr King's legacy,
in your opinion, are often overlooked? Well, I mean, even
if you take the mL E the I have a
dreams speech, and and the line that is often quoted
that that King's dream that my four little children will
(04:38):
one day live in a nation where they will not
be judged by the color of their skin, but by
the content of the character. People disregard what he said
directly before that and directly after it, which in which
he lamented that his dream is being thwarted by vicious
racists in places like Mississippi, which are sweltering with the
(05:00):
heat of oppression. Can you imagine if if I say
that today, right, you know that that's a problem. But
but then somehow, and so I think there's so much
of of of King's sort of legacy, the fact that
he simultaneously recognized racism and spoke out about racism as
(05:20):
the problem, but then also recognized how racism itself it
wasn't just sort of harming black people. It was harming America.
It was harming democracy, and it was dividing people. And
he wanted to bring people together, and he saw anti
racism as as as a unifying sort of praxis. The
way you've just so eloquently explained that, Hey, you know,
(05:41):
right before that line and right after that line, he
says some other stuff you should look into. Why are
people why do people cherry pick that, Why are people
in denial about the other parts of who Dr King was,
like he was against the Vietnam War. Why has that
never brought up? I mean, it's it's striking. I mean,
you know they not only was King against the Vietnam War,
(06:04):
but when he came out against the Vietnam War, I
believe April four, nine seven, he stated in a speech
that the United States government is the greatest purveyor of
violence on the face of this earth. And and you know,
you know again he was very clear about even the
relationship between imperialism, military sort of warfare, human division, you know,
(06:30):
in racism, and and I think I'm I'm personally sort
of bother just because he said so much more than that,
I have a dream speech in that single line. But
we of course missed that because we try to people
try to use King uh to justify their own not racism,
(06:52):
or that we should be race neutral as a nation,
which I'm still trying to figure out what that even means.
What I would love to do is play you a
clip of conservatives who have appropriated Mlk's message. Let's just
let's just let's just listen to a run of conservatives
quoting Dr King. Dr King would not participate in a
(07:14):
black Lives Matter protest. The Great MLK said, you have
a moral obligation to object to unjust rules and rules
that make no sense. One of my favorite quotes from
Dr King was, now is the time to make real
the promises of democracy. You think of how he changed America.
(07:36):
He inspired us to change through the legislative process to
become a more perfect union. That's exactly what President Trump
is calling on the Congress to do today. I'm asking
my colleagues to remember the words of the legendary, the
great leader in this country, Dr Martin Luther King, who
once said, the time is always right to do what
(07:57):
is right. And I just want to leave you with
the quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. That we must
learn to live together as brothers or we will perish
together as fools. Thank you. Critical race theory is a
Marxist doctrine that rejects the vision of Martin Luther King Jr.
Critical race theory. Here it goes against everything Martin Luther
King has ever told us. Don't judge us by the
color of our skin. And now they're embracing it. Right,
(08:21):
We're going backwards. He's kind of like everyone's um dead,
like my Black Friend is like this dead man who
can make say anything right. And with the thing about
you know, he has this huge body of work in
this entire life. It's kind of like if someone maybe
this is a poor analogy, but it was like, Oh,
(08:41):
I'm like, oh, do you know Outcasts? You know the
group Outcasts? Like oh yeah, hey, shake it like a
polaroid picture. I'm like, yes, but even one within the song, Hey,
you're misunderstanding about the entire song is incredibly sad and
about the ability of love to last. But there's also
other songs Outcast is made. You know, that's so much
deeper in opoignent. So Randall, as a writer at the
(09:04):
Daily Show, you have what I considered to be the
most difficult job in the building, which is to take
sadness and make it funny. And so when you when
you all were researching this piece and you start digging
up all these wonderful, wonderful factoids on Dr King, you know,
and how the FBI, you know, they tried to destroy
him with wild taps and they call them playing crazy audio.
(09:25):
They told him he should kill himself, suggested suicide. But
then the FBI's Twitter account gives Dr King a shot
out on MLK Day. How do you all in the
writer's room juggle the gravity of the situation versus the
need to still be able to interfuse humor into this topic. Well,
(09:46):
I guess it's for me. It's kind of like just
focusing on one the honesty of the situation, which is
I think like if I think if you just basically
look at the reality of what you just said, you know,
they tried to have this man killed, and that are
celebrating him on its face is absurd and heightened to
a level that is almost hard to comprehend. And it's
(10:07):
kind of in a way with that kind of like
the Trump problem, like when something is so ridiculous, how
do you heighten that reality? Um, And part of it
is too, I guess I like focus on, like some
of the reactions of the serious things. So if something
is like incredibly serious, incredibly potently important, it may be
a particle hard to joke about that thing in and
(10:30):
of itself, but the deflections off of that topic can
be somewhere you can go, and that's usually where I
find a lot of humors. So people's reactions to what
the FBI has said is a good source of humors.
So it's like kind of like, um, it's hard to
stare directly into the sun, but you can get the
rays off what the sun provides, you know what I mean,
(10:53):
Professor Candy. The thing that I guess is so amazing
to me about Dr King is that he is the
one that we're all taught. So I'm a product of
the Birmingham City school system. Birmingham is that about a
black city. All the city schools are predominantly black, teachers
(11:15):
are predominantly black. Taught a lot of blacketty blackness. We
did a lot of field trips to blacketty black stuff.
Yet when I look back in reflection on everything, it
was a black school system, but it was for sure
a white board of education, of white state board of education.
And when I look at everything that we were taught,
we were just taught the basic hits. You were lucky
(11:36):
if you found out about Marion Anderson like they talked
you always call it suit brother and a flute brother.
You would learn a black person who plays an instrument
and a black person who wore suit. They didn't teach
you about anybody else. How did Dr King become the
one that was synonymous with the civil rights movement when
there are so many other figures that did things to
(11:59):
move the Black ray forward. And how do we make
for a more well rounded civil rights education in this country? Like,
can't we miss quote other people other than that? Why
r King the only one we miss quote? Abernathew said,
some dope ship, dude. I mean, I think there's probably
two reasons. Without getting into much trouble, I think that
(12:20):
the first is that, I mean, I think King certainly
was an incredibly pivotal figure during during the Civil rights movement,
and during the movement itself captured much of the media
narratives around civil rights, when in many cases there were
other people who were sort of leading the way, you know,
(12:41):
whether we're talking about even the Montgomery sort of bus boycott,
which was largely organized by women and it was marked
mainly domestics who were boycotting. Of course, King sort of
became one of the premier sort of media figures. And
and so I think there's that. Then I think the
other reason is because how they framed King. So they
(13:02):
framed King as Mr. Non Violence. They sort of want
to essentially just as during the Civil Rights when they
want to frame King is non violence Malcolm X's violence,
which are of course both flawed. Um and and then
they want to frame King as an assimilationist, that he
(13:23):
was essentially, uh, seeking to integrate into superior white America
and you black people, that's which Hell is supposed to
be doing, when that's also false. So I think the
way in which they framed King also, you know, is
a reason why I think they're they're they're misrepresenting him
as opposed to somebody else. I'm curious kind of like
(13:45):
with the they you're talking about, is can it be
kind of sourced back to some type of specific group
or movement to try to edit the history of m
OK or is it more of like a broader just
general social movement among people. Well, I mean, one of
the ways we could understand the last fifty years is
there has been efforts two essentially create race neutrality. This
(14:15):
the the you know, particularly you know Americans who once
were champions of separate but equal, who were segregating and
supporting racial segregation, who were opposing sort of bussing, who
were supporting the underfunding of of those majority black schools
(14:35):
that that Roy talked about, um and and using very
explicit ideas about black people to justify them. By the
nineties seventies, those very same forces were saying, oh, we're
no longer segregationist, but we're committed to racial neutrality. Because
what happened is by the sixties you had activists who
(14:56):
are like, Okay, we have all this inequality, now we
need to eliminate it. They were like, no, no, no,
you know, even though these people need more, if we
if we allocate resources based on need, that's quote reverse discrimination.
And so in many ways, those very people are are
also the people who are trying to to really, as
(15:18):
I wrote in a piece recently, the Atlantic, engage in
the second assassination among the King. So to that article,
the Atlantic article the second Assassination of MLK, you said
that quote King's nightmare of racism is being presented as
his dream. Is what happening right now in this country?
Is this Dr King's nightmare? Like? What do you think
(15:39):
when you see email Ka's words appropriated in order to
serve these various political narratives. No, I think people forget that.
By nineteen sixty seven, a year before he was assassinated,
King stated that in many cases, my dream has turned
into a night there. And in one aspect of that
(16:03):
nightmare was by nineteen sixty seven you had so many,
particularly young people, but even parents and educators who were pressing,
for for instance, African American history, and there was all
sorts of opposition to that. Uh. And you know, King
actually in a book in nineteen sixty seven wrote the
history books, which have almost completely ignored the contribution of
(16:27):
the need American history, have only served to intensify the
Negro sense of worthlessness and to augment the anachronistic doctrine
of white supremacy. And so King was clearly a supporter
of anti racist education, of what's now called critical race theory.
But what's ironic is they're using King to oppose the
(16:48):
very thing he supported in his own written writings. Randall,
what what role like if we if we talk about
this idea of King being the only one that is quoted,
what role do we think entertainment plays? And because when
we think about we talk about like solutions, right, all right?
If if the real ship ain't being taught in the schools,
(17:11):
and from the looks of it, it it ain't gonna get
taught anytime soon, depending on how these mid terms go
then is it on the parents to start because you know,
I have a five year old and they're already learning
about people in kindergarten that they didn't touch on until
fifth to sixth grade with me. So in my head,
I'm doing the calculations they're gonna run out of black
(17:32):
people to teach them about about the second grade. Is
it on the parents to supplement that education? And also,
you know kind of like what what what role does
Hollywood play because we go, oh, they quote MLK too much,
but when you look at civil rights movies, that's the
only one they love. The green Light. If we're going,
I'm going way way back. I know it's a little
different now, but we're talking twenty to thirty years of
(17:54):
black cinema. More often than not, it's just the hits
that they cover. What role around or do you think
entertainment place and trying to re educate people? I think
it has an important role. Um Like clearly, like you know,
Judas in The Black Messiah came out recently. That's probably
the first time a lot of Americans probably even heard
(18:14):
the name Fred Hampton, you know, or even had the
Black Panthers portrayed in a way that wasn't as a terrorist.
Like I grew up in the South, Agraham, Florida. What
you can say is not the South. Whatever, the South, Um,
that's super South, that's that's extra strength South. It's it's
hafidelity South. And I remember when I was in school,
(18:36):
like I learned the lost Cause theory in the Civil
War and like the States Rights theory about Civil War.
Like that's what I was taught. And it was through
my parents teaching me outside of school about the history
of more people than just MLK and George Washington Carver
every single year where I got to learn about these people.
And so that's me as a black person, like being
(18:59):
kind of denied access to my history or just the
history of a lot of people from this country with
black people. And so I can't even imagine what it's
like if you don't come from a black family. And
even if you do come from black family, a lot
of them may not take the time to teach you
about these things, or maybe they weren't even educated themselves
about it. So I guess in that way, entertainment's important.
(19:21):
And I think in terms of like people just making
another movievu I'm okay in another movie about 'm okay,
is just probably in a ways, one that is easy.
You know, people already understand who this guy is, and
the other ones may be harder to green light because
it's like, look, no, it seems like self perpetuating. You know,
it's like only learned about them. Okay, you only make
stuff about them. Okay, so other people want to learn
about them. Okay, you know what I'm saying. Well, after
(19:43):
the break, Um, let's let's stay in Florida. Let's talk
about your governor run Dessantis and his latest attempts to
ban critical race theory down there in Florida. This is
beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. We are talking
about conservatives and their loving relationship with Martin Luther King.
(20:06):
But only the good part. Just give me a little
bit of what he said that I agree with. That's
the part that I like. Professor Abraham Kindy Rhondes Santis
down there in Florida. Um, this man who so he's
introduced a stop woke at while quoting MLK in the
(20:28):
middle of introducing the app, do you think about what
MLK stood for? He said he didn't want people judged
on the color of their skin, but on the content
of their character. You listen to some of these people nowadays,
they don't talk about that. Is this increased wave of
criticism against critical race theories? This is a direct result
(20:50):
of heightened support for Black Lives matter, you know, because
I feel like, you know, in every movement, I feel
like every time black people make some level of progress,
there is a degree of backlash. Is what happened with
critical race theories? This, you know, heightened because of support
for Black Lives Matter nationally? Or is it, as MLK
referred to it, the white backlash? I think it's it's both.
(21:14):
I don't think it's a coincidence that this manufactured critical
race theory sort of mania happened in one a year
after the series of demonstrations you know, around the country
in the summer of tens of millions of people marched
(21:36):
and demonstrated against police violence and racism, and by June
of one, Pole was stating that as many of seventy
six percent of Americans, we're recognizing that racism exists and
was a major problem. Also the majority of white Americans,
for the first time on record, we're also expressing a
(21:57):
recognition of racism, you know, and that that problem and
and and so I think that, of course there was
a very targeted effort two undermine that to say no,
racism isn't the problem. Those people who are saying racism
is the problem of the real problem. But I also
think that studies show that specifically Trump's base, when you
(22:21):
when you compare them to white Democrats or even Republicans
who don't necessarily like Trump, they specifically are more likely
to believe that white people are the primary victims of
racism or that white people are being subjected to racism.
So the whole sort of mania around critical race theory
(22:42):
is that it's harming white children, that that white children,
you know, are basically exactly that our teaching force, which
is what white is telling white children that they are evil.
I mean, that's the sort of idea because and there's
a does a record mission that that idea is very
(23:03):
prominent and well believed. It will be well received, you know,
particularly among Trump space. Randall being from Florida, what would
you say is the ratio of knowing what you know
now about blackness and your identity and the journey of
our ancestors, what percentage of that did you learn in
home versus learning in Florida's schools very one too. I
(23:34):
don't know. There's probably a number that hasn't been invented yet,
and we'll get there one day. That's what I would say.
There's pretty much almost all on the home where I
learned about blackness and the history of black America up
until which is I left it. I just had to
to get the hell out of there. I feel like
(23:54):
the hypocrisy in this is so perfect because like happened
to write whole like two conflicting mantras, right, they we
love MLK and racism is gone, but also let's ban
all of mlk's books, because what I hate about this
is the revisionist history of the the great Dr Martin
Luther King, who we must all seventy of y'all hated
(24:16):
him back in the sixties. They did a first of
Professor ram I didn't know that they did polls on
civil rights leaders. It was like six that King had
an appropriate Yeah, like the sixty of people hated him,
(24:36):
they did not rock. But what he did I just
don't understand, you know, because like when you look at
what's happening now with like like this Tennessee group, Mom's
for liberty right. They tried to ban Francesy Ruffin's book
on Martin Luther King in the March on Washington. How
can you love MLK but also want to ban his teachings?
You also have here, you know, Professor Kenny. You have
(24:58):
Pennsylvania's uh Central York School District banning Brad Meltzer's I
Am Martin Luther King, Jr. And then two years before that,
which you gotta give them credit. Down there in Georgia,
you know, they were ahead of the curve on banning
some of these books before it became a you know,
before it became nationwide. Georgia was doing it loud and
proud after Stacy Abrams almost took the state from him,
(25:21):
the Columbia County School District in Georgia, band Nick Stones,
Dear Martin, is the CRT debate? Is this just another
moment of Americans being able to deny what happened? Like
what is the fear and just what is there we go?
What are you fucking afraid of? What are people afraid of?
(25:44):
If we dare to turn over these rocks of the past?
What motivates this hatred of just facts? We're not even
asking for policy that that's what's so wild about this ship.
This is not a policy debate, this is just, hey,
can we talk about the time that thing happened to us?
That time in history? Well, I mean and and even
(26:07):
you know, going back to to to Georgia banning next
books and nikkas nick Stone is a is a native
of Georgia, so you know, a native of outside of Atlanta.
So it's but I think in many ways as it
relates to race, this generation and really every generation of
Americans have have not necessarily lived in reality. So like
(26:32):
us trying to drag people into reality, people imagine that
they were they're they're they're trying to be that, we're
trying to sort of drag them, you know, into something surreal.
And and for the first few decades of this country's history,
it was widely believed slavery was a necessary evil. By
the eighteen thirties to the eighteen sixties, it was why
do we believe slavery was a positive good? We don't know.
(26:55):
Of course, for a hundred years, it was believed that,
you know, ming him was perfectly separate and equal. And
and of course for the last fifty years, people have
imagined we live in a post racial society with racial
disparities all around us. So people don't really know how
to even imagine their world, even to imagine themselves. Uh
(27:17):
without this denial, uh, you know, without living in this
world and make believe as you know, as one writer
called it, I can't imagine even your I mean, in
the past few years, we've learned that a lot of
people don't even think science is real or sickness when
it is effective, that active. I can't imagine how difficult
(27:39):
it must be to have people believe in racism or
the effects of our racial history. And so that's kind
of something I wanted to say, Yeah, Randall quickly, I
think generally people don't believe in science, but they really
don't believe in racial science. They just think I'm just talking,
(28:00):
you know, just one day I just decided to start
talking about race and racism. That I wasn't trained to
study this, that this is in my expertise. That people
are sharing their views and I'm sharing my views. And
that's what really really makes it hard. Dr Kendy when
you speak and I know and I'm and I'm sure
that you are brought in to talk to a lot
(28:21):
of in a lot of capacities to people that may
agree with you and want to learn more. But talk
to me a little bit about the confrontational side of this.
Because you have the data, you've done, the studies, you
have done the research. You're not just someone who was
awakened recently and put like, you're one of a few
people that that that I'll talk to in this podcast
(28:42):
who I believe has read every book that is behind
you right now, Like because you know, you know, you know,
we started doing these shows from home, people started, you know,
decorating their bookshelf for arranging their books about you don't
read them books. You're arranging them about color. That's the
first sign that I know you ain't read them. Talk
Talk to me about the confrontations that have Do you
get confronted by people, like after seminars and like even
(29:05):
pre COVID, where there was a little bit more face
to face where someone wants to challenge you and go, yo, man,
that's you're full of it. Oh that I mean, that's
that's pretty regular. Little more so during COVID. Before COVID,
I should say, um, but I mean I actually, you know,
my work I tried to to to talk about the
differences between a producer of a racist idea like a
(29:29):
Donald Trump and the consumer, you know, a racist idea
someone but who had been fed this this lie that
let's say the election was stolen by those voters and
those black and brown voters in Atlanta, you know, Philadelphia,
and when that consumer sort of then repeats that propaganda
to me, I tried to have that level of sort
(29:51):
of empathy to think about that somebody sort of manipulated
them into thinking this way, into thinking that that's other
people stole their election. And and I think that empathy
knowing that none of us are sort of born with
ideas that a particular group is dangerous or inferior or
stealing election. You know. I try to just remember when
(30:13):
I'm confronted, and I try to really ask the person
who's that who's claiming that they are not racist. I
asked them, okay, so how do you define the term racist?
If you swear you're not racist, you must be able
to find that term, and usually they can't. Before we
go to break then here here's my last question. Where
(30:34):
does America compare with other countries educational systems when it
comes to like confronting difficult parts of their history. And
I've been told that Germany don't play that when it
comes to Nazi history and the rewriting or the repositioning
of what Nazis really were all about. How do how
(30:56):
do other countries confront their dark pass and history books.
I actually think German is a great example, and I
think many Americans are surprised to learn that German children
as early as kindergarten, you know, are taught about Nazism,
you know, in the Holocaust, and about the truth of
of that sort of brutality and and mass murder. Because
(31:19):
there's a recognition that if if young people learn about Nazism,
if they learn about the ideas that's trustified it, that
they will be able to recognize that and we'll be
able to recognize that and prevented from resurfacing. While of course,
in comparison, in the United States, we're in denial even
about how horrible slavery truly was. I mean, you still
(31:41):
have U s senators, you know you are. Senator Tom
Cotton last year when he was blasting the sixteen nineteen projects,
insinuated that slavery wasn't necessary evil. Like a home they
had a male they were saying. Tom Cotton wrote, as
the founding father said, slavery was the necessary evil upon
(32:03):
which the Union was built. It's it's always something, It's
always something. After the break, Let's let's talk about the future.
Let's get optimistic after the break and figure out ways
that we could infuse other MLK quotes into these people
miles and figure out ways to properly honor Martin Luther
King's legacy. This is beyond the scenes. Let's talk solutions.
(32:29):
I found this interest in Randall that you know, we
have for decades fought for Martin Luther King day, you know,
and to have it be recognized and also sidebar for
his face to not be put on club flyers to
promote nightclub ignorance. Please stop it, full stop. Sorry, white people,
(32:51):
is a black I'm just talking to the black people
right now. Okay, we're back. This poster has a lot
of people shaking their heads and discussed. It shows Dr
Martin Luther Jr. We're in a gold chain promoting a
party called Freedom to Twerk. It was supposed to take
place at this club, but it's been canceled. The owner
says he's disgusted and there'll be no twerking here in
(33:11):
all of the fighting for m l K Day. M
l k's family recently has called for no celebration of
m l K Day without action on voting right to legislation.
Is this an effective strategy to try to get people
to honor him and provoke change or does this just
give conservatives out and just go, well, you don't want
m l K Day? Sounds good to me, I guess
(33:35):
to me, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I maybe
y'all do something different. I don't like do anything on
MLK Day. I'm like, this is my day off. Like,
I don't know, do you have like m l Kate
Day fireworks or something. I just maybe I've been missing
out for plast nine years. But but I don't think
we should throw out the baby with the bath wat
(33:56):
you know what I'm saying, Like we need we need
to revamp how we think of Martin Luther King and
how we teach them. But we should keep the day off,
you know, and like we shouldn't be tasteless with you know,
mattress sales are for black people or something. But it's
like let's keep the same. But just to say, okay, well,
(34:16):
let's let's go, let's ask Mr research it. Dr Kendy,
When you were out and you were shopping and you
see them mL K off prices on clothing, do you
go out and buy something in honor of Dr King? Like?
How do you feel about the commercialization of Martin Luther King?
Or is that just capitalism? Which is a totally separate
(34:39):
podcast episode. I mean, I think that the sad fact
is almost everything has been commodified and and you know,
including some of our sort of greatest historical figures, you know,
like King and so. And that's really as you stated,
I mean, that's a function of capitalism, and and so
I think that's that's a sort of a different type
(35:00):
of issue. I think, short of a sale on sniper rifles,
I'm okay with the commercialization because at least, let me
put it this way, Randall, I'm not defended by it,
if that makes sense, Like I don't like it, but
these are just stupid stores that are just going, what
(35:22):
are y'all celebrating? Cool? Let me put that on a
flyer next week to sell more sodas or sell more groceries.
There will be some sort of they won't call it
a George Floyd sale, but it'll be some I ga't
if you mark my words, dog, mark my words. This
summer there's going to be some sort of unity unity
(35:46):
sale or some ship. It's it's they're not gonna call
it George Floyd, but it's gonna oddly be around just
a little bit before June tenth, so not a June tenth,
but in the ballpark of it. And I think that's where,
you know, because like June tenth is that's another perfect example,
you know, Dr Kendy where yeah, I wasn't rocking with
(36:07):
June tent for real, for real, but then now it's, oh,
well we care about the Blacks, so let's show them
that we care. Now you get a day off for
June teenth, which I'm happy to have, uh, which I
also full disclosure. I think, Trevor, no, what do you
give us off? Randall? Two days for June thing? I think,
so we got more than a day. Yeah, I don't
(36:29):
I understand where that comes from. It's not my favorite
thing about Martin Luther King and the way he's been
kind of whitewashing. I guess in this into this degree
you know, greenwashed, but you know it it troubles me,
but I think there's far worse issues surrounding his legacy,
(36:50):
which to that question, you know, Dr Kendy, how do
we properly honor m OK's legacy while also deep emphasizing him,
like do you exalt him and go? But also you
know what I mean, like you know what it's like again,
if I'm gonna use the outcast and now if I
take Randall's outcast analogy, Dr King is under three thousand,
(37:11):
but don't forget big boy had some bars too. I
think maybe one of the ways is, you know, if
people want to talk about and I know about King,
we can sort of meet them where they are. So okay,
let's talk about you know, Martha King. Let's talk about
Southern Christian Leadership Conference in the world Ella Baker played
(37:32):
in the building of that organization, or and so we
can use King to not only sort of describe his
specific legacy and his message, but also to teach about
other sort of historical figures who worked with him, who
thought in the ways that he did, or even who
(37:53):
thought differently. Um, And I think that's maybe an effective
way to sort of honor King, to really sort of
honor the whole movement and really honored the long standing
movement of black people to be free? What do you think?
And I hate this question, but I only hear white
people asked it. So I'm going to ask you as
(38:14):
a black person, I'm gonna ask both of you. So, Randall,
what do you think Dr King would have to say
about these times that we're in right now? Oh? Thank
you white white? No? Like seriously, like if Dr King
had a Twitter account, If he had a Twitter account,
first off, do you think he would respond to trolls?
I think he would want just because he'd be an
old dude and he wouldn't really get technology, like he'd
(38:37):
forced her tweet important stuff, but anything like I got
stand by the Nigerian prince again, you know, like though
there'd be of course that comes to the age. It
takes everybody, doesn't matter who you are. But if you
had a Twitter, yeah, I feel like you would respond
to the the day's events. And because the wather you
framed it, I guess is like they would think that
(38:59):
everything is going on as bad. And I'll just be like, well, bro,
if you actually do care, if this isn't just you
trying to like getting my mentions of today, I'd be like,
read just two other speeches by him, just two other things,
like read letter from Birmingham Jent, you know, and see
(39:19):
how he thinks about like white moderation or something like that,
and just be like, just do the smallest amount of
work possible. Dr Kendy. If Martin Luther King was on
MSNBC tonight in a four bucks arguing with two other
conservatives and jewelry read a Tiffany Cross. Um, I'm just
(39:40):
just being silling, but like seriously, like because there's so
much that's happening now that I feel like compares to
his day. Like we talk about Karen's calling the cops
on black people. You don't think white women wouldn't calling
the cops on black folks when they was marching and
they win suits. Yeah, what would what would Dr? That's
a good one. What would he have to say about
(40:01):
Rachel Dolazal claiming she's black? Would you could just be
a welcome to the movement, Donda sort of black stuff?
I mean, well, King grew up in a black community,
went to a black church, went to a black college. Um,
and so you know, I think I actually would wonder
what he would say about about somebody who considers themselves transracial.
(40:26):
But but I also think, you know he would say,
like tonight on Joyce Show, he would say, as I
stated in in nineteen sixty three, the filipbuster is is
a tool of Jim Crow. And the fact that we
have democratic politicians who are refusing to do away with
(40:46):
this tool of Jim Crow that I've literally fought my
whole career. The fact that you have Republicans who are
honoring me at the same time they refused to do
away with what I fought against my whole career. You know,
the heart of hypocrisy. And who the hell used my
voice for that dodge called commercial I did not authorize.
(41:09):
It's just it's just so fun to do his voice. Man,
It's just I think that's another reason for him all
the time, because it's fun. We have gone beyond the scenes.
We have done it. Dr Abrahm x kind thank you
so much for coming on the show. Randall otis as well,
thank you so so much for coming on the show.
Thank you Roy, Thank you Randall. Let me know when
(41:29):
y'all get that racism stuff solid up there in Boston.
Dr Kendy Ill swing back you know, we need to
talk about that next time. Because they got the new mayor.
Y'all got the new man at a minority mail and
a woman the show. Good. Yeah, indeed, all right, thank
you to take care of y'all. Listen to the Daily
(41:57):
Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the radio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Even if you get
him in the back alley, we're there, you know, Frank
knows us H
Hey, it's Roy Wood Jr. And to honor Martin Luther
King Junior Day, we're revisiting a beyond the Scenes episode
about the life and legacy of Martin Luther King Jr.
In this episode, I sit down with dr Abra, Mexicandy
and Daily Show writer randall Otis, and we discuss how
conservatives have a habit of sighting MLK to score a
variety of political points, some even us his words to
undermine anti racist education and critical race theory. We also
(00:23):
discussed the commercialization of the holiday and how to properly
honor Martin Luther King Junior's legacy. I'm looking at you.
I better not see y'all. Let know MLK Mattress Day
sales heavy Listen, Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This
(00:44):
is the podcast that goes deeper into savings and topics
that have originally aired on the Daily Show at Trevor Noah.
I am Roy Wood Junior, per as usual this podcast.
You know, you don't beyond the scenes. It's like, this
is like when you order a milkshakee and they make
too much milkshare and they give you that little extra
bit of milkshake. You're not like they eat the milkshake
(01:04):
and then the cup they made the milkshake in. It's
got a little bit of a corner. That's a Southern
measurement of liquid. They give you a little extra corner
of milkshake. Is two milkshakes for the price of one.
That's what this podcast is like. We are overflowing with
informational goodness that might give you a brain freeze. Now,
in honor of Dr Reverend Martin Luther the King Day,
(01:25):
we're taking a look at the life and legacy of
Dr Martin Luther King, Jr. The appropriation of his message,
his influence in today's pop culture, and all things of
that nature. Today I'm joined by Daily Show writer Randall Otis.
Randall as always great to have you own. How you
doing pimping? I'm doing good. You know, got covids, so
(01:47):
I don't have to worry about that for another month
at least. Well, you know what they say, Randall, You're
not a real New York City stand up comedian if
you haven't caught COVID, So welcome to the party, pal.
It's also I'm also joined by New York Times bestselling
author of the book How to Be An Anti racist
(02:07):
and also stamped from the beginning the Definitive History of
racist ideas in America. He is a historian and the
director of Boston University's Center for Anti Racist Research. Professor
Abram X. Kendy. Professor Kendy, how are you doing to day.
I'm good. I'm still still running from from COVID, but
(02:30):
I'm trying. Well. If it's anything like the NYPD, eventually
it will stop you for questioning. We're avoiding it. Thank
you so much for being on the show. Before we
get into the topic at hand today, which is Dr
Martin Luther, Reverend the King, and the way a lot
(02:50):
of people cherry picked pieces of his message to fit
their narrative. You have dedicated your life to trying to
educate and get people to understand here's how we correct,
Here's how we reverse this terrible cancer in this country.
What the hell do you do to relax? Man? What
is your what is like? You have people? You know?
(03:10):
Do you know people? What's your spy routine? What's your woosa?
What does Professor Kindy do to unwind and just take
a breath from this? So that's the same great helps
uh each night? Um? I think I also try not
to take things personally, and so certainly when people are
(03:33):
degrading black people, I don't take it personally as if
there's something wrong with with me. People like me, I
recognize them as a problem. But even when people are
personally attacking sort of me and my work from bad faith,
I also just try not to take it personally and
try to be focused, you know, in transformation. So when
(03:55):
we talk about Martin Luther King Jr's birthday and the
fact that it's now a national holiday, it's it's are
they are they observing it yet in Arizona? Are we
still forty nine states county? I don't know. It's like
everyone knows that I have a dream speech, and that's
the one that's kind of the it's the most quoted
(04:16):
of all of his many many quotables. But that was
only a small part of his complex legacy. Um, I'll
start with you, Professor Kendy. What parts of Dr King's legacy,
in your opinion, are often overlooked? Well, I mean, even
if you take the mL E the I have a
dreams speech, and and the line that is often quoted
that that King's dream that my four little children will
(04:38):
one day live in a nation where they will not
be judged by the color of their skin, but by
the content of the character. People disregard what he said
directly before that and directly after it, which in which
he lamented that his dream is being thwarted by vicious
racists in places like Mississippi, which are sweltering with the
(05:00):
heat of oppression. Can you imagine if if I say
that today, right, you know that that's a problem. But
but then somehow, and so I think there's so much
of of of King's sort of legacy, the fact that
he simultaneously recognized racism and spoke out about racism as
(05:20):
the problem, but then also recognized how racism itself it
wasn't just sort of harming black people. It was harming America.
It was harming democracy, and it was dividing people. And
he wanted to bring people together, and he saw anti
racism as as as a unifying sort of praxis. The
way you've just so eloquently explained that, Hey, you know,
(05:41):
right before that line and right after that line, he
says some other stuff you should look into. Why are
people why do people cherry pick that, Why are people
in denial about the other parts of who Dr King was,
like he was against the Vietnam War. Why has that
never brought up? I mean, it's it's striking. I mean,
you know they not only was King against the Vietnam War,
(06:04):
but when he came out against the Vietnam War, I
believe April four, nine seven, he stated in a speech
that the United States government is the greatest purveyor of
violence on the face of this earth. And and you know,
you know again he was very clear about even the
relationship between imperialism, military sort of warfare, human division, you know,
(06:30):
in racism, and and I think I'm I'm personally sort
of bother just because he said so much more than that,
I have a dream speech in that single line. But
we of course missed that because we try to people
try to use King uh to justify their own not racism,
(06:52):
or that we should be race neutral as a nation,
which I'm still trying to figure out what that even means.
What I would love to do is play you a
clip of conservatives who have appropriated Mlk's message. Let's just
let's just let's just listen to a run of conservatives
quoting Dr King. Dr King would not participate in a
(07:14):
black Lives Matter protest. The Great MLK said, you have
a moral obligation to object to unjust rules and rules
that make no sense. One of my favorite quotes from
Dr King was, now is the time to make real
the promises of democracy. You think of how he changed America.
(07:36):
He inspired us to change through the legislative process to
become a more perfect union. That's exactly what President Trump
is calling on the Congress to do today. I'm asking
my colleagues to remember the words of the legendary, the
great leader in this country, Dr Martin Luther King, who
once said, the time is always right to do what
(07:57):
is right. And I just want to leave you with
the quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. That we must
learn to live together as brothers or we will perish
together as fools. Thank you. Critical race theory is a
Marxist doctrine that rejects the vision of Martin Luther King Jr.
Critical race theory. Here it goes against everything Martin Luther
King has ever told us. Don't judge us by the
color of our skin. And now they're embracing it. Right,
(08:21):
We're going backwards. He's kind of like everyone's um dead,
like my Black Friend is like this dead man who
can make say anything right. And with the thing about
you know, he has this huge body of work in
this entire life. It's kind of like if someone maybe
this is a poor analogy, but it was like, Oh,
(08:41):
I'm like, oh, do you know Outcasts? You know the
group Outcasts? Like oh yeah, hey, shake it like a
polaroid picture. I'm like, yes, but even one within the song, Hey,
you're misunderstanding about the entire song is incredibly sad and
about the ability of love to last. But there's also
other songs Outcast is made. You know, that's so much
deeper in opoignent. So Randall, as a writer at the
(09:04):
Daily Show, you have what I considered to be the
most difficult job in the building, which is to take
sadness and make it funny. And so when you when
you all were researching this piece and you start digging
up all these wonderful, wonderful factoids on Dr King, you know,
and how the FBI, you know, they tried to destroy
him with wild taps and they call them playing crazy audio.
(09:25):
They told him he should kill himself, suggested suicide. But
then the FBI's Twitter account gives Dr King a shot
out on MLK Day. How do you all in the
writer's room juggle the gravity of the situation versus the
need to still be able to interfuse humor into this topic. Well,
(09:46):
I guess it's for me. It's kind of like just
focusing on one the honesty of the situation, which is
I think like if I think if you just basically
look at the reality of what you just said, you know,
they tried to have this man killed, and that are
celebrating him on its face is absurd and heightened to
a level that is almost hard to comprehend. And it's
(10:07):
kind of in a way with that kind of like
the Trump problem, like when something is so ridiculous, how
do you heighten that reality? Um, And part of it
is too, I guess I like focus on, like some
of the reactions of the serious things. So if something
is like incredibly serious, incredibly potently important, it may be
a particle hard to joke about that thing in and
(10:30):
of itself, but the deflections off of that topic can
be somewhere you can go, and that's usually where I
find a lot of humors. So people's reactions to what
the FBI has said is a good source of humors.
So it's like kind of like, um, it's hard to
stare directly into the sun, but you can get the
rays off what the sun provides, you know what I mean,
(10:53):
Professor Candy. The thing that I guess is so amazing
to me about Dr King is that he is the
one that we're all taught. So I'm a product of
the Birmingham City school system. Birmingham is that about a
black city. All the city schools are predominantly black, teachers
(11:15):
are predominantly black. Taught a lot of blacketty blackness. We
did a lot of field trips to blacketty black stuff.
Yet when I look back in reflection on everything, it
was a black school system, but it was for sure
a white board of education, of white state board of education.
And when I look at everything that we were taught,
we were just taught the basic hits. You were lucky
(11:36):
if you found out about Marion Anderson like they talked
you always call it suit brother and a flute brother.
You would learn a black person who plays an instrument
and a black person who wore suit. They didn't teach
you about anybody else. How did Dr King become the
one that was synonymous with the civil rights movement when
there are so many other figures that did things to
(11:59):
move the Black ray forward. And how do we make
for a more well rounded civil rights education in this country? Like,
can't we miss quote other people other than that? Why
r King the only one we miss quote? Abernathew said,
some dope ship, dude. I mean, I think there's probably
two reasons. Without getting into much trouble, I think that
(12:20):
the first is that, I mean, I think King certainly
was an incredibly pivotal figure during during the Civil rights movement,
and during the movement itself captured much of the media
narratives around civil rights, when in many cases there were
other people who were sort of leading the way, you know,
(12:41):
whether we're talking about even the Montgomery sort of bus boycott,
which was largely organized by women and it was marked
mainly domestics who were boycotting. Of course, King sort of
became one of the premier sort of media figures. And
and so I think there's that. Then I think the
other reason is because how they framed King. So they
(13:02):
framed King as Mr. Non Violence. They sort of want
to essentially just as during the Civil Rights when they
want to frame King is non violence Malcolm X's violence,
which are of course both flawed. Um and and then
they want to frame King as an assimilationist, that he
(13:23):
was essentially, uh, seeking to integrate into superior white America
and you black people, that's which Hell is supposed to
be doing, when that's also false. So I think the
way in which they framed King also, you know, is
a reason why I think they're they're they're misrepresenting him
as opposed to somebody else. I'm curious kind of like
(13:45):
with the they you're talking about, is can it be
kind of sourced back to some type of specific group
or movement to try to edit the history of m
OK or is it more of like a broader just
general social movement among people. Well, I mean, one of
the ways we could understand the last fifty years is
there has been efforts two essentially create race neutrality. This
(14:15):
the the you know, particularly you know Americans who once
were champions of separate but equal, who were segregating and
supporting racial segregation, who were opposing sort of bussing, who
were supporting the underfunding of of those majority black schools
(14:35):
that that Roy talked about, um and and using very
explicit ideas about black people to justify them. By the
nineties seventies, those very same forces were saying, oh, we're
no longer segregationist, but we're committed to racial neutrality. Because
what happened is by the sixties you had activists who
(14:56):
are like, Okay, we have all this inequality, now we
need to eliminate it. They were like, no, no, no,
you know, even though these people need more, if we
if we allocate resources based on need, that's quote reverse discrimination.
And so in many ways, those very people are are
also the people who are trying to to really, as
(15:18):
I wrote in a piece recently, the Atlantic, engage in
the second assassination among the King. So to that article,
the Atlantic article the second Assassination of MLK, you said
that quote King's nightmare of racism is being presented as
his dream. Is what happening right now in this country?
Is this Dr King's nightmare? Like? What do you think
(15:39):
when you see email Ka's words appropriated in order to
serve these various political narratives. No, I think people forget that.
By nineteen sixty seven, a year before he was assassinated,
King stated that in many cases, my dream has turned
into a night there. And in one aspect of that
(16:03):
nightmare was by nineteen sixty seven you had so many,
particularly young people, but even parents and educators who were pressing,
for for instance, African American history, and there was all
sorts of opposition to that. Uh. And you know, King
actually in a book in nineteen sixty seven wrote the
history books, which have almost completely ignored the contribution of
(16:27):
the need American history, have only served to intensify the
Negro sense of worthlessness and to augment the anachronistic doctrine
of white supremacy. And so King was clearly a supporter
of anti racist education, of what's now called critical race theory.
But what's ironic is they're using King to oppose the
(16:48):
very thing he supported in his own written writings. Randall,
what what role like if we if we talk about
this idea of King being the only one that is quoted,
what role do we think entertainment plays? And because when
we think about we talk about like solutions, right, all right?
If if the real ship ain't being taught in the schools,
(17:11):
and from the looks of it, it it ain't gonna get
taught anytime soon, depending on how these mid terms go
then is it on the parents to start because you know,
I have a five year old and they're already learning
about people in kindergarten that they didn't touch on until
fifth to sixth grade with me. So in my head,
I'm doing the calculations they're gonna run out of black
(17:32):
people to teach them about about the second grade. Is
it on the parents to supplement that education? And also,
you know kind of like what what what role does
Hollywood play because we go, oh, they quote MLK too much,
but when you look at civil rights movies, that's the
only one they love. The green Light. If we're going,
I'm going way way back. I know it's a little
different now, but we're talking twenty to thirty years of
(17:54):
black cinema. More often than not, it's just the hits
that they cover. What role around or do you think
entertainment place and trying to re educate people? I think
it has an important role. Um Like clearly, like you know,
Judas in The Black Messiah came out recently. That's probably
the first time a lot of Americans probably even heard
(18:14):
the name Fred Hampton, you know, or even had the
Black Panthers portrayed in a way that wasn't as a terrorist.
Like I grew up in the South, Agraham, Florida. What
you can say is not the South. Whatever, the South, Um,
that's super South, that's that's extra strength South. It's it's
hafidelity South. And I remember when I was in school,
(18:36):
like I learned the lost Cause theory in the Civil
War and like the States Rights theory about Civil War.
Like that's what I was taught. And it was through
my parents teaching me outside of school about the history
of more people than just MLK and George Washington Carver
every single year where I got to learn about these people.
And so that's me as a black person, like being
(18:59):
kind of denied access to my history or just the
history of a lot of people from this country with
black people. And so I can't even imagine what it's
like if you don't come from a black family. And
even if you do come from black family, a lot
of them may not take the time to teach you
about these things, or maybe they weren't even educated themselves
about it. So I guess in that way, entertainment's important.
(19:21):
And I think in terms of like people just making
another movievu I'm okay in another movie about 'm okay,
is just probably in a ways, one that is easy.
You know, people already understand who this guy is, and
the other ones may be harder to green light because
it's like, look, no, it seems like self perpetuating. You know,
it's like only learned about them. Okay, you only make
stuff about them. Okay, so other people want to learn
about them. Okay, you know what I'm saying. Well, after
(19:43):
the break, Um, let's let's stay in Florida. Let's talk
about your governor run Dessantis and his latest attempts to
ban critical race theory down there in Florida. This is
beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. We are talking
about conservatives and their loving relationship with Martin Luther King.
(20:06):
But only the good part. Just give me a little
bit of what he said that I agree with. That's
the part that I like. Professor Abraham Kindy Rhondes Santis
down there in Florida. Um, this man who so he's
introduced a stop woke at while quoting MLK in the
(20:28):
middle of introducing the app, do you think about what
MLK stood for? He said he didn't want people judged
on the color of their skin, but on the content
of their character. You listen to some of these people nowadays,
they don't talk about that. Is this increased wave of
criticism against critical race theories? This is a direct result
(20:50):
of heightened support for Black Lives matter, you know, because
I feel like, you know, in every movement, I feel
like every time black people make some level of progress,
there is a degree of backlash. Is what happened with
critical race theories? This, you know, heightened because of support
for Black Lives Matter nationally? Or is it, as MLK
referred to it, the white backlash? I think it's it's both.
(21:14):
I don't think it's a coincidence that this manufactured critical
race theory sort of mania happened in one a year
after the series of demonstrations you know, around the country
in the summer of tens of millions of people marched
(21:36):
and demonstrated against police violence and racism, and by June
of one, Pole was stating that as many of seventy
six percent of Americans, we're recognizing that racism exists and
was a major problem. Also the majority of white Americans,
for the first time on record, we're also expressing a
(21:57):
recognition of racism, you know, and that that problem and
and and so I think that, of course there was
a very targeted effort two undermine that to say no,
racism isn't the problem. Those people who are saying racism
is the problem of the real problem. But I also
think that studies show that specifically Trump's base, when you
(22:21):
when you compare them to white Democrats or even Republicans
who don't necessarily like Trump, they specifically are more likely
to believe that white people are the primary victims of
racism or that white people are being subjected to racism.
So the whole sort of mania around critical race theory
(22:42):
is that it's harming white children, that that white children,
you know, are basically exactly that our teaching force, which
is what white is telling white children that they are evil.
I mean, that's the sort of idea because and there's
a does a record mission that that idea is very
(23:03):
prominent and well believed. It will be well received, you know,
particularly among Trump space. Randall being from Florida, what would
you say is the ratio of knowing what you know
now about blackness and your identity and the journey of
our ancestors, what percentage of that did you learn in
home versus learning in Florida's schools very one too. I
(23:34):
don't know. There's probably a number that hasn't been invented yet,
and we'll get there one day. That's what I would say.
There's pretty much almost all on the home where I
learned about blackness and the history of black America up
until which is I left it. I just had to
to get the hell out of there. I feel like
(23:54):
the hypocrisy in this is so perfect because like happened
to write whole like two conflicting mantras, right, they we
love MLK and racism is gone, but also let's ban
all of mlk's books, because what I hate about this
is the revisionist history of the the great Dr Martin
Luther King, who we must all seventy of y'all hated
(24:16):
him back in the sixties. They did a first of
Professor ram I didn't know that they did polls on
civil rights leaders. It was like six that King had
an appropriate Yeah, like the sixty of people hated him,
(24:36):
they did not rock. But what he did I just
don't understand, you know, because like when you look at
what's happening now with like like this Tennessee group, Mom's
for liberty right. They tried to ban Francesy Ruffin's book
on Martin Luther King in the March on Washington. How
can you love MLK but also want to ban his teachings?
You also have here, you know, Professor Kenny. You have
(24:58):
Pennsylvania's uh Central York School District banning Brad Meltzer's I
Am Martin Luther King, Jr. And then two years before that,
which you gotta give them credit. Down there in Georgia,
you know, they were ahead of the curve on banning
some of these books before it became a you know,
before it became nationwide. Georgia was doing it loud and
proud after Stacy Abrams almost took the state from him,
(25:21):
the Columbia County School District in Georgia, band Nick Stones,
Dear Martin, is the CRT debate? Is this just another
moment of Americans being able to deny what happened? Like
what is the fear and just what is there we go?
What are you fucking afraid of? What are people afraid of?
(25:44):
If we dare to turn over these rocks of the past?
What motivates this hatred of just facts? We're not even
asking for policy that that's what's so wild about this ship.
This is not a policy debate, this is just, hey,
can we talk about the time that thing happened to us?
That time in history? Well, I mean and and even
(26:07):
you know, going back to to to Georgia banning next
books and nikkas nick Stone is a is a native
of Georgia, so you know, a native of outside of Atlanta.
So it's but I think in many ways as it
relates to race, this generation and really every generation of
Americans have have not necessarily lived in reality. So like
(26:32):
us trying to drag people into reality, people imagine that
they were they're they're they're trying to be that, we're
trying to sort of drag them, you know, into something surreal.
And and for the first few decades of this country's history,
it was widely believed slavery was a necessary evil. By
the eighteen thirties to the eighteen sixties, it was why
do we believe slavery was a positive good? We don't know.
(26:55):
Of course, for a hundred years, it was believed that,
you know, ming him was perfectly separate and equal. And
and of course for the last fifty years, people have
imagined we live in a post racial society with racial
disparities all around us. So people don't really know how
to even imagine their world, even to imagine themselves. Uh
(27:17):
without this denial, uh, you know, without living in this
world and make believe as you know, as one writer
called it, I can't imagine even your I mean, in
the past few years, we've learned that a lot of
people don't even think science is real or sickness when
it is effective, that active. I can't imagine how difficult
(27:39):
it must be to have people believe in racism or
the effects of our racial history. And so that's kind
of something I wanted to say, Yeah, Randall quickly, I
think generally people don't believe in science, but they really
don't believe in racial science. They just think I'm just talking,
(28:00):
you know, just one day I just decided to start
talking about race and racism. That I wasn't trained to
study this, that this is in my expertise. That people
are sharing their views and I'm sharing my views. And
that's what really really makes it hard. Dr Kendy when
you speak and I know and I'm and I'm sure
that you are brought in to talk to a lot
(28:21):
of in a lot of capacities to people that may
agree with you and want to learn more. But talk
to me a little bit about the confrontational side of this.
Because you have the data, you've done, the studies, you
have done the research. You're not just someone who was
awakened recently and put like, you're one of a few
people that that that I'll talk to in this podcast
(28:42):
who I believe has read every book that is behind
you right now, Like because you know, you know, you know,
we started doing these shows from home, people started, you know,
decorating their bookshelf for arranging their books about you don't
read them books. You're arranging them about color. That's the
first sign that I know you ain't read them. Talk
Talk to me about the confrontations that have Do you
get confronted by people, like after seminars and like even
(29:05):
pre COVID, where there was a little bit more face
to face where someone wants to challenge you and go, yo, man,
that's you're full of it. Oh that I mean, that's
that's pretty regular. Little more so during COVID. Before COVID,
I should say, um, but I mean I actually, you know,
my work I tried to to to talk about the
differences between a producer of a racist idea like a
(29:29):
Donald Trump and the consumer, you know, a racist idea
someone but who had been fed this this lie that
let's say the election was stolen by those voters and
those black and brown voters in Atlanta, you know, Philadelphia,
and when that consumer sort of then repeats that propaganda
to me, I tried to have that level of sort
(29:51):
of empathy to think about that somebody sort of manipulated
them into thinking this way, into thinking that that's other
people stole their election. And and I think that empathy
knowing that none of us are sort of born with
ideas that a particular group is dangerous or inferior or
stealing election. You know. I try to just remember when
(30:13):
I'm confronted, and I try to really ask the person
who's that who's claiming that they are not racist. I
asked them, okay, so how do you define the term racist?
If you swear you're not racist, you must be able
to find that term, and usually they can't. Before we
go to break then here here's my last question. Where
(30:34):
does America compare with other countries educational systems when it
comes to like confronting difficult parts of their history. And
I've been told that Germany don't play that when it
comes to Nazi history and the rewriting or the repositioning
of what Nazis really were all about. How do how
(30:56):
do other countries confront their dark pass and history books.
I actually think German is a great example, and I
think many Americans are surprised to learn that German children
as early as kindergarten, you know, are taught about Nazism,
you know, in the Holocaust, and about the truth of
of that sort of brutality and and mass murder. Because
(31:19):
there's a recognition that if if young people learn about Nazism,
if they learn about the ideas that's trustified it, that
they will be able to recognize that and we'll be
able to recognize that and prevented from resurfacing. While of course,
in comparison, in the United States, we're in denial even
about how horrible slavery truly was. I mean, you still
(31:41):
have U s senators, you know you are. Senator Tom
Cotton last year when he was blasting the sixteen nineteen projects,
insinuated that slavery wasn't necessary evil. Like a home they
had a male they were saying. Tom Cotton wrote, as
the founding father said, slavery was the necessary evil upon
(32:03):
which the Union was built. It's it's always something, It's
always something. After the break, Let's let's talk about the future.
Let's get optimistic after the break and figure out ways
that we could infuse other MLK quotes into these people
miles and figure out ways to properly honor Martin Luther
King's legacy. This is beyond the scenes. Let's talk solutions.
(32:29):
I found this interest in Randall that you know, we
have for decades fought for Martin Luther King day, you know,
and to have it be recognized and also sidebar for
his face to not be put on club flyers to
promote nightclub ignorance. Please stop it, full stop. Sorry, white people,
(32:51):
is a black I'm just talking to the black people
right now. Okay, we're back. This poster has a lot
of people shaking their heads and discussed. It shows Dr
Martin Luther Jr. We're in a gold chain promoting a
party called Freedom to Twerk. It was supposed to take
place at this club, but it's been canceled. The owner
says he's disgusted and there'll be no twerking here in
(33:11):
all of the fighting for m l K Day. M
l k's family recently has called for no celebration of
m l K Day without action on voting right to legislation.
Is this an effective strategy to try to get people
to honor him and provoke change or does this just
give conservatives out and just go, well, you don't want
m l K Day? Sounds good to me, I guess
(33:35):
to me, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I maybe
y'all do something different. I don't like do anything on
MLK Day. I'm like, this is my day off. Like,
I don't know, do you have like m l Kate
Day fireworks or something. I just maybe I've been missing
out for plast nine years. But but I don't think
we should throw out the baby with the bath wat
(33:56):
you know what I'm saying, Like we need we need
to revamp how we think of Martin Luther King and
how we teach them. But we should keep the day off,
you know, and like we shouldn't be tasteless with you know,
mattress sales are for black people or something. But it's
like let's keep the same. But just to say, okay, well,
(34:16):
let's let's go, let's ask Mr research it. Dr Kendy,
When you were out and you were shopping and you
see them mL K off prices on clothing, do you
go out and buy something in honor of Dr King? Like?
How do you feel about the commercialization of Martin Luther King?
Or is that just capitalism? Which is a totally separate
(34:39):
podcast episode. I mean, I think that the sad fact
is almost everything has been commodified and and you know,
including some of our sort of greatest historical figures, you know,
like King and so. And that's really as you stated,
I mean, that's a function of capitalism, and and so
I think that's that's a sort of a different type
(35:00):
of issue. I think, short of a sale on sniper rifles,
I'm okay with the commercialization because at least, let me
put it this way, Randall, I'm not defended by it,
if that makes sense, Like I don't like it, but
these are just stupid stores that are just going, what
(35:22):
are y'all celebrating? Cool? Let me put that on a
flyer next week to sell more sodas or sell more groceries.
There will be some sort of they won't call it
a George Floyd sale, but it'll be some I ga't
if you mark my words, dog, mark my words. This
summer there's going to be some sort of unity unity
(35:46):
sale or some ship. It's it's they're not gonna call
it George Floyd, but it's gonna oddly be around just
a little bit before June tenth, so not a June tenth,
but in the ballpark of it. And I think that's where,
you know, because like June tenth is that's another perfect example,
you know, Dr Kendy where yeah, I wasn't rocking with
(36:07):
June tent for real, for real, but then now it's, oh,
well we care about the Blacks, so let's show them
that we care. Now you get a day off for
June teenth, which I'm happy to have, uh, which I
also full disclosure. I think, Trevor, no, what do you
give us off? Randall? Two days for June thing? I think,
so we got more than a day. Yeah, I don't
(36:29):
I understand where that comes from. It's not my favorite
thing about Martin Luther King and the way he's been
kind of whitewashing. I guess in this into this degree
you know, greenwashed, but you know it it troubles me,
but I think there's far worse issues surrounding his legacy,
(36:50):
which to that question, you know, Dr Kendy, how do
we properly honor m OK's legacy while also deep emphasizing him,
like do you exalt him and go? But also you
know what I mean, like you know what it's like again,
if I'm gonna use the outcast and now if I
take Randall's outcast analogy, Dr King is under three thousand,
(37:11):
but don't forget big boy had some bars too. I
think maybe one of the ways is, you know, if
people want to talk about and I know about King,
we can sort of meet them where they are. So okay,
let's talk about you know, Martha King. Let's talk about
Southern Christian Leadership Conference in the world Ella Baker played
(37:32):
in the building of that organization, or and so we
can use King to not only sort of describe his
specific legacy and his message, but also to teach about
other sort of historical figures who worked with him, who
thought in the ways that he did, or even who
(37:53):
thought differently. Um, And I think that's maybe an effective
way to sort of honor King, to really sort of
honor the whole movement and really honored the long standing
movement of black people to be free? What do you think?
And I hate this question, but I only hear white
people asked it. So I'm going to ask you as
(38:14):
a black person, I'm gonna ask both of you. So, Randall,
what do you think Dr King would have to say
about these times that we're in right now? Oh? Thank
you white white? No? Like seriously, like if Dr King
had a Twitter account, If he had a Twitter account,
first off, do you think he would respond to trolls?
I think he would want just because he'd be an
old dude and he wouldn't really get technology, like he'd
(38:37):
forced her tweet important stuff, but anything like I got
stand by the Nigerian prince again, you know, like though
there'd be of course that comes to the age. It
takes everybody, doesn't matter who you are. But if you
had a Twitter, yeah, I feel like you would respond
to the the day's events. And because the wather you
framed it, I guess is like they would think that
(38:59):
everything is going on as bad. And I'll just be like, well, bro,
if you actually do care, if this isn't just you
trying to like getting my mentions of today, I'd be like,
read just two other speeches by him, just two other things,
like read letter from Birmingham Jent, you know, and see
(39:19):
how he thinks about like white moderation or something like that,
and just be like, just do the smallest amount of
work possible. Dr Kendy. If Martin Luther King was on
MSNBC tonight in a four bucks arguing with two other
conservatives and jewelry read a Tiffany Cross. Um, I'm just
(39:40):
just being silling, but like seriously, like because there's so
much that's happening now that I feel like compares to
his day. Like we talk about Karen's calling the cops
on black people. You don't think white women wouldn't calling
the cops on black folks when they was marching and
they win suits. Yeah, what would what would Dr? That's
a good one. What would he have to say about
(40:01):
Rachel Dolazal claiming she's black? Would you could just be
a welcome to the movement, Donda sort of black stuff?
I mean, well, King grew up in a black community,
went to a black church, went to a black college. Um,
and so you know, I think I actually would wonder
what he would say about about somebody who considers themselves transracial.
(40:26):
But but I also think, you know he would say,
like tonight on Joyce Show, he would say, as I
stated in in nineteen sixty three, the filipbuster is is
a tool of Jim Crow. And the fact that we
have democratic politicians who are refusing to do away with
(40:46):
this tool of Jim Crow that I've literally fought my
whole career. The fact that you have Republicans who are
honoring me at the same time they refused to do
away with what I fought against my whole career. You know,
the heart of hypocrisy. And who the hell used my
voice for that dodge called commercial I did not authorize.
(41:09):
It's just it's just so fun to do his voice. Man,
It's just I think that's another reason for him all
the time, because it's fun. We have gone beyond the scenes.
We have done it. Dr Abrahm x kind thank you
so much for coming on the show. Randall otis as well,
thank you so so much for coming on the show.
Thank you Roy, Thank you Randall. Let me know when
(41:29):
y'all get that racism stuff solid up there in Boston.
Dr Kendy Ill swing back you know, we need to
talk about that next time. Because they got the new mayor.
Y'all got the new man at a minority mail and
a woman the show. Good. Yeah, indeed, all right, thank
you to take care of y'all. Listen to the Daily
(41:57):
Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the radio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Even if you get
him in the back alley, we're there, you know, Frank
knows us H
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