October 1, 2024 • 43 mins
Jon Stewart explores the surprising disconnect between Donald Trump’s actual policies and the image his supporters have crafted, as the 2024 election looms. Ta-Nehisi Coates joins the conversation to discuss his latest book, The Message. They dive deep into the lasting impacts of oppression, how history continues to shape our present, and the hidden stories of marginalized communities from the U.S. to Palestine.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Comedy Central.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Center is America's
only sorts for news.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
This is the Daily Show with your host show Store.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
On that show right at the top.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Store.
Speaker 5 (00:49):
We gotta party the show for it tonight. First of all,
let's go Mets. Second of all, Tana Hosey Kilts is
gonna be joining us later to talk. But New York
finally getting back to normal traffic wise, the UN General
Assembly is over. And by the way, what a successful
(01:12):
General Assembly it was. The world just exploding with peace
right now, just great session, guys. Now that the Assembly's gone,
New York is getting ready for its next big event,
the vice presidential debate tomorrow night. Honestly, I'm not even
(01:33):
gonna watch it, and I'm gonna tell you why. I
already know who I'm voting for vice president wise, but
I'm gonna be honest. President still undecided. So here's the thing.
As an undecided it's basically me and six people who
are kicked in the head by very powerful horses. I've
(01:57):
been leaning towards Kamala Harris because of her impress resume
and her ability to switch from Indian to Black, and
if we were doing this show fifteen years ago, I
would probably be doing the voices a long time ago.
(02:27):
But on the other hand, about Kamala Harris, I've been
hearing some very concerning things about her.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
She's come under some criticism for being relatively vague in
her policy proposals.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
They don't have enough specifics on the solutions. When she
tried to explain what she would do, it made no sense.
This jebbish. The public demands a detailed plan of action,
and they're not getting it from her.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
We demand that.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
If there is one thing that the American public demands,
it is a detailed plan of Ooh, the Golden Bachelorette.
(03:13):
I hope they selected candidates who lived nearby her, because
old people are not known to want to change their lives. Anyway,
back to the point. The point is Harris speaks gibberish
because she's part Indian, part Black, and part gibber If
(03:34):
Kamala Harris dissolves into gibberish every time she's asked for
specific policies, then I dare say she will not earn
my completely irrelevant New Jersey vote.
Speaker 7 (03:43):
I will get rid of unnecessary decree requirements for federal jobs,
low and low interest loans to small businesses. Expand the
tax deduction for startups to fifty thousand dollars. Six thousand
dollars in tax relief of families during the first year
of a child's life, capital gains will be twenty eight percent.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
Excuse me, but as Americans, we demanded a detailed plan
of action, not random numbers. You have left the door
wide open, lady, because clearly Donald aloisious Trump would not
(04:28):
he would not trifle with America in that manner. What
are the specific mechanics of how prices come down? You
know the steps that would be taken in a second
term for you. Good question, mister Trump. What is your
(04:52):
detailed plan of action for bringing down prices? And I
believe I'll mark your responses on this handy dandy child.
I already have my I'll have my pen ready all
(05:31):
the way up here at the top of specificity and
make sensitude begin.
Speaker 8 (05:36):
First of all, she can't do an interview. She could
never do this interview because you ask questions like give
me a specific answer. She talks about her lawn when
she was growing up. This woman is not equipped to
be president.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
I guess they had the wrong chart. The question, sir,
was specific to how are you going to bring down inflation?
Your answer so far has been but perhaps I cut
you off unfairly.
Speaker 8 (06:34):
She's not equipped to deal with president She who was
very I took in hundreds of billions of dollars with
him and Putin. We had no war with Putin. Remember,
and I'm just going to go off just for this.
With Bush, they took a lot. Russia. With Biden, they're
trying to take everything.
Speaker 9 (06:52):
With Obama, they took a lot.
Speaker 8 (06:55):
With Trump, Russia took nothing.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Just remember that. You know what, maybe he didn't really
(07:20):
want to talk about his inflation policy since economists say
it would make inflation worse, which you know is the
wrong direction. Let's give Trump a second chance.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
If you win in November, can you commit to prioritizing
legislation to make childcare affordable? And if so, what specific
piece of legislation will you advance.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Oh, that's a fabulous question. That's a fabulous question. Children
need childcare, whether it's a nanny or duct tape to
a chair with an iPad. But it costs money, obviously,
duct tape and iPads and in app purchases.
Speaker 10 (08:03):
Well, I would do that, and we're sitting down, you know,
I was somebody we had said at a Marco Rubio
and my daughter Ivanka was so impactful on that issue.
Speaker 9 (08:15):
It's a very important issue.
Speaker 10 (08:16):
But I think when you talk about the kind of
numbers that I'm talking about that because look, childcare is childcare.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Us.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Now, we could let the tip continue where he says
we will pay for childcare with the trillions we're going
to receive by levying tariffs on foreign nations, which apparently
isn't how that works. But get one more.
Speaker 6 (09:00):
Political opponents are saying that you want to ban IVF.
Those who are watching here tonight who may be going
through this same struggle and are concerned about being able
to have this option, and I'd love for you to
talk to them about how they should feel.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Life is pretty tough.
Speaker 9 (09:19):
It can be beautiful, but it can be difficult.
Speaker 10 (09:23):
We are doing something with IBF because if as you
know from friends and people, you know, it's really worked
out very well for a lot of people.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
It gave them a child when they would not have
had a child. And I told my people I wanted
to look at this.
Speaker 10 (09:38):
A couple of weeks ago, and as you know, we
have no taxes one of the things called tips.
Speaker 9 (09:46):
You know that, what the actual are you talking about?
Speaker 5 (10:17):
How do you want people to feel about IVF? Well,
I have no taxes on a thing called tips. You
know what I do? Actually see the uh I get
it now? So you see IVF fertilizes an egg with
a sperm, and sperm comes from a penis, and a
penis has a tip. So I can only assume Donald
(10:42):
Trump is talking about circumcision, which Jews call a tax
on tips. All right, let's move on. So clearly what
people like about Donald Trump is not his clear specific policies,
(11:03):
as they demand from Kamala Harris. But I'm still open.
I'm an undecided voter, you know, because of the horse
kicked him ahead. Let's hear some of Trump's passionate supporters
explain what they see as his strands.
Speaker 8 (11:15):
He has really become the candidate of the working man,
of the everyman.
Speaker 11 (11:19):
President Trump cares deeply about rig workers, truck drivers, roughnecks.
Speaker 12 (11:25):
He worked with plumbers and electricians, He worked with painters
and brick layers. President Trump is the best friend American
workers have ever had in the White house.
Speaker 9 (11:36):
He's our best friend. Donald Trump is the champion of hard.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Working men and women. He's behind every kind of worker,
from auto to sex. The kind of people.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Donald Trump is.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Behind the kind of people who have to work over
time to pay the bill.
Speaker 13 (12:00):
I know a lot about overtime. I'd hated they give overtime.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I hated it.
Speaker 13 (12:05):
I'd get other people.
Speaker 10 (12:06):
I shouldn't say this, but I'd get other people and
I wouldn't say I hated.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Yeah, you're right, you shouldn't have said that. You shouldn't
have said it at all, because you're a knitting to
freaking people over who work for you. I mean, it's funny,
but it undercuts the working man's friend thing. Well, yeah,
it's fine you don't want to get them overtime, but
it's not like you think it's funny to fire them
when they complain about something like not getting overtime.
Speaker 14 (12:32):
Well, you you're the greatest cutter.
Speaker 13 (12:35):
I mean, I look at what you do.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
You walk in and you just say you want to
do it. They go on strike.
Speaker 8 (12:40):
I won't mention the name of.
Speaker 13 (12:41):
The company, but they go on strike, and you say,
that's okay.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
You're all gone. You're all gone.
Speaker 13 (12:45):
So every one of you is gone.
Speaker 12 (12:48):
Ha ha.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
I gotta say, every time Trump talks about workers, it's
like watching a Christmas Carol in reverse. I just fired
these three ghosts who are trying to get over time.
So the supporting the working man thing is nonsense. What
other things do his supporters like about him?
Speaker 10 (13:12):
I think in sixty five days of American people are
going to vote for President Trump because they know he's
the guy who will defend their right to speak.
Speaker 8 (13:18):
You're aligned with each other on other key issues like
detecting freedom of speech.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
Okay, I get it now. So it's not really a
policy case for Trump. It's a principal case for Trump
the man. No matter what is said about him, he
believes in the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the government
should never punish speech, even if you don't like the speech.
Speaker 15 (13:38):
Mister Trump saying publicly the FCC should revoke ABC's license
over unfounded claims about ABC News allegedly rigging the presidential debate.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
For President, Trump says that he will deport students who
participate in pro policy and process.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Donald Trump said that anyone who criticizes the Supreme Court
justices should be.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Arrested in jails Donald Trump earlier today said you burned
the American flag, you should get.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
A year behind Mars.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
During the twenty twenty four campaign, Trump has been quote
venting about the need to punish late night comedians for
their anti Trump material.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Isn't being on Basic cable at eleven pm punishment enough? God,
So we know the policy thing about free speech and
the hero of the working class thing are all bullshit.
But I'm still underside. I'm still open. Give me something
I could work with. He's an anti war guy. He
(14:50):
is going to get us out of these endless wars.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
President Trump believes that the next four years we need
no new wars.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
First of all, I didn't know Max Headroom still had
a shot. But phil anti war. I'm anti war. I'm
absolutely behind that sentiment.
Speaker 12 (15:17):
But if I were the president, I would inform the
threatening country in this case Iran, that if you do
anything to harm to this person, we are going to
blow your largest cities and the country itself to smitherines.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
We're gonna blow it to smitherings. You can't do that.
He just war with I run. I mean, at least
doesn't count. We've been bombing them for forty years. They
love it okay, forget about ideals, forget about policies. What
(15:53):
are the personal qualities you're voting for? People?
Speaker 11 (15:56):
Just like that?
Speaker 5 (15:57):
That honesty of Donald Trump, he tells it like it
is a man of his word. He's a truth teller.
Are you stetting me right now?
Speaker 16 (16:09):
Are you?
Speaker 15 (16:11):
Are you?
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Right now?
Speaker 9 (16:15):
He is a truth hell.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
They're eating the dogs.
Speaker 14 (16:24):
Oh and by the way, they're eating the cats, anything else,
they're eating the pets of the people that live there.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
Now, mew yamy, Now now I'm yell of the people
that live by the only monster on TikTok no nobody else.
(17:00):
My wife sent me dout like ten times. And so
we find ourselves not in a dilemma, but in a
bit of a conundrum. The qualities and policies that people
profess to be what they admire and love about former
President Trump don't seem to be an accurate reflection of
said former president. It's as though they've created a fictional character,
(17:21):
a bizarro Trump, whose accomplishments and character bear little resemblance
to the self aggrandizing, perpetual victim guy. He continues to
tell you explicitly that he is. It makes you wonder
what country does Donald Trump think he's running to lead.
Speaker 11 (17:40):
Our cities have already become hell halls, a crime ridden,
gang infested, terror filled dumping ground, bloodshed, chaos and violent crime,
a deluge of illegals pouring in by the Midians and Midians.
Speaker 12 (17:54):
Drug dealers, human.
Speaker 11 (17:56):
Traffickers, bloodthirsty terrorsts, savage gang members, while stone cold killers.
Speaker 10 (18:02):
You can't walk across the street to get a loaf
of bread, You get shot, teenagers cut to shreds. They'll
walk into your kitchen, they'll cut your throat.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Oh wait, I see this fictional Trump, who is portrayed
as much better than he actually is, is running to
be president of a country he paints as much worse
than it actually is. But I got to tell you,
whatever country that is where families are routinely murdered several
times while making breakfast, could really use actual Donald Trump.
(18:51):
The rest of us not so much. When we come back,
Sanahase Coats will be here. Don't go away.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
All about with.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
A mail coat. My death tonight it critically acclaimed bestselling author.
Because your book is called a message, Please welcome back
to the program, Tanah Houston Coats. Hello, Hello, my friend,
(19:47):
you are grappling. This is a book of grappling. It's reparations,
the purpose of art, the purpose of writing, your role,
your response ability the Israel, Palestine. I can see you
want to go back to just writing comic books again.
(20:08):
This is what was in you that you thought I
need to take on these big questions, including what is
this for? What is what is writing for?
Speaker 16 (20:22):
I have for a long time had in the back
of my head that we do not have a complete
understanding of politics. That is to say, we think of
politics as what happens inside of a voting booth.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You go in and you choose, you know, pull a
lever for whatever right.
Speaker 16 (20:34):
But there's a whole, entire architecture that happens outside of
that voting booth that defines what goes on inside of it,
what issues are appropriate.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Frankly, who is human and who is not?
Speaker 16 (20:45):
And that is the work of stories, movies, television shows,
writing all of that and being a writer, and this
coming out of you know, me talking to my students
at Howard University at the time, I really really wanted
to address that.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You know, so often I get the question why should
I write.
Speaker 12 (21:03):
Now?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
In general? But by the time they get to me.
Speaker 16 (21:05):
They usually my students are like there, but a lot
of you know, other times when I'm you know, out
in the world, what is writing gonna do?
Speaker 12 (21:11):
Like?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
What is it actually gonna change?
Speaker 16 (21:12):
And what I wanted people to understand is writing actually
shapes the world around you entirely.
Speaker 12 (21:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
See I would have said basic cable, but okay, right.
Speaker 16 (21:20):
For somebody has to write the scripts, right, somebody, that's
exactly rightactly exactly is that?
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Do you grapple with that as a burden or a
call to arms? What is for you? How do you
wear it? Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It's exciting.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
It's exciting.
Speaker 16 (21:38):
It gets me up in the morning, right, It like
pumps my blood like I can't wait, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Like there are people who.
Speaker 16 (21:45):
I got a friend who's in the yard doc right,
and I was texting this morning about, you know, everything
that was going on, and he disappeared for it.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
He said, sorry this the guy just got shot. I'm sorry.
Speaker 16 (21:54):
And I said to him, how beautiful is it to
have work that actually matters? Are you out there saving
people's lives? And I'm not an ear doctor, but it
is a blessing to feel like what I write actually
matters in the world, right, I mean, it gives me
meaning and purpose, And I kind of wanted to convey that,
you know, to all the young writers you know, who
hopefully as inspiration.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Yes, yes, your friend was at work when the guy
got shot. He was because first second I was like, wait,
he was at work, work, you were talking to me.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
He was at work?
Speaker 5 (22:25):
All right, that's that's that's very good. Do you get frustrated?
And this is something that that I think about sometimes
that the world that you would prefer to see that
the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice, and
the work of writing is trying to help facilitate that.
That it is that that that arc of moral justice
(22:46):
is so resilient against bending that it's so hard to
matter in that form.
Speaker 16 (22:53):
I get sad, right, And there a lot of moments
in here where I was really sad, right, you know,
But at the same time, like I said, it fills
me with purpose. I don't know if I would add
a purpose I talked about just a few minutes ago,
you know, without that great difficulty. Honestly, it feels great
(23:14):
to know that if I actually try really really hard
at the thing, if I actually worked really, really hard
to write the best book I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You know that I could be here talking to you
that it.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
Actually you could have written and been on here.
Speaker 9 (23:27):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
If that's the case, I can tell you that that
you didn't have to work nearly this hard.
Speaker 15 (23:34):
But it is.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
It's a beautifully felt book. I want to ask you,
there's a certain aspect of your career that has really
tried to reconcile, not with things in the present, but
they're vestiges the structures racial politics, slavery, economic injustices where
(23:57):
it might not be the active virus, but it's the
vestiges of it that still, you know, leach into the
groundwater and make it toxic and polluted. This book felt
a little different in that you were also going into
the present and bringing those lessons with you, and I thought,
I thought that was a really moving part of the book.
Speaker 16 (24:20):
Yeah, that that's true, And I guess I'm gonna be
the one that broached this. But it was obviously most
active when I was in Jerusalem, when I was in Haipho,
when I was.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
On the West Bad. I mean, it was it was
the history, but the history was active, and that was
that was tough.
Speaker 16 (24:37):
That was something I'm used to, you know, going to
some you know, slave plantation and saying, well, yeah, this
did happen one hundred fifty years ago, but here's how
you know, you can still feel the impact and you
got no, no, it's right now, right, it's right now,
and it comes on the hills.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
So in the book, you're also you take a trip
to Senegal.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I do, yes.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Is that in relation to your trip to Israel and
the West Bank in that same time frame or is
that was that split out?
Speaker 16 (25:01):
It was about it was so I think I went
in this would have been like September of twenty twenty
two to Senegal and in May of twenty three to
the West Bank and to Israel, and weirdly enough, they
are in conversation with each other. I can't say I
intended that, right.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
Well, that's that's why I was curious, because there is
a music there between the two.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, that there is.
Speaker 16 (25:25):
I mean, Senegal is very much about me, frankly, investigating
the very stories that gave me my name, you know,
and gave me my identity, and trying to work through
that and frankly not completely working through it by the
time I got over there and then you know, I
take this trip, you know, with this wonderful organization of
Palestinian Palestine Festival of Literature, and I get over there,
(25:47):
you know, for five days, and I spent another five
days with these x IDF guys, you know what I mean,
who had had their own political evolution. And this is
very weird to say, but it's much sympathy as I
had for the Palestinians watching Zionism.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
In the world.
Speaker 16 (26:06):
Even feeling like this is wrong, what I'm saying is wrong.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I was like, my god, I know how you get here.
I know how you get I know how it happens.
And I don't mean like I approve of it, but
I mean like, I see, I see how it happens.
I totally see how it happens.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Is how you see how it happens, because you talk
about Yad Vashem and going there and being moved is
the idea. Because you have a line in the book
that I think is one of the most powerful, which
is and I want to make sure that I get
it right, which is your oppression will not save you,
which is, and you write about that in relation to
(26:44):
the black experience in America, but also about the Jewish
experience in the Holocaust as well as in Israel. And
what did you mean by that?
Speaker 16 (26:55):
I think we would like to think that you go through,
you know, a horrific experience, be it the Middle Passes
Jim Crow here, be at the Holocaust, or the centuries
before that of programs, oppression, et cetera, and somehow you
will be more really improved by coming out of that.
You might be, You might be, but it's just as
(27:17):
likely that you will conclude than in fact. The world
is a cold, hard place and it's a zero sum game,
you know what I mean, And what matters is who
has the guns and who doesn't. You know, I stand
opposed to that, just on principal period, you know what
I mean. But I get how people take that lesson,
(27:38):
you know what I mean, And I think it's disconvining
for us to feel because we feel sympathy for people, you.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Know what I mean.
Speaker 16 (27:43):
When I'm walking through Yad Vashim and I'm feeling it
on a very very deep level, only to come back
here and realize I was, you know, about a mile
away from a massacre of a Palestinian village, that's hard
to take.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
It. You know what I mean since I was I'm
raised in obviously cultural Jewish tradition, and I imagine, you know,
if you were to feel like people in the name
of your people did some things that you found objectionable,
it hits you different.
Speaker 16 (28:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, no, it does, it does, it does,
and it's not a complete parallel. But that's why in
that chapter I wanted to talk a little bit about
Liberia for instance, you know what I mean, and just
the idea, I get it, the appeal of hey, we're
going to have a state of our own. We're gonna
get away from these people that did you know, X, Y,
and Z for us, we will have safety there.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And yet then you.
Speaker 16 (28:33):
Find yourself enacting, you know, systems that, if not are
the same or similar, at least you know, morally deeply problematic, and.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Having to justify them through either threat or the situation
or you don't understand. And what I'm what I'm wondering
is is that the story, in a condensed form of
all of us is does for society to progress, does
their also have to be exploitation? Do you grapple with
(29:03):
this idea that when we think about anything, whether it's
the American story or the Israeli story or any of those.
It's stories of empire, whether it's the Ottoman Empire or
the Caliphate. It's groups of people living under the grace
of a leader who controls their lives. And can we
(29:25):
progress outside of that?
Speaker 12 (29:27):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (29:28):
Do you think about is there another way to do this?
Has there been another way to do this? If we
shine that light on any country that grew through, won't
there be a story of exploitation and mistreatment that we find,
maybe not as horrific, but we find it.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 16 (29:45):
I think though, we have to guard against the temptation
to accept that history is necessary the limits of who
we are rightman beings, just because I mean, you know
that's been you know that it's been that way, that
it necessarily has to be that way. I will, for instance,
highlight you know, the underlying role of nationalism and the
belief that a nation state is the way to secure
(30:07):
and safeguard a minority. That is a very recent development
as a belief system. Actually, you know that is not eternal.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
That's prior to that. Wouldn't it have been tribalism or
wouldn't it would have been something?
Speaker 16 (30:19):
Would it would have been a pope it would have
been you know my allegiances, you know X, Y and Z.
But what I'm saying is it is not innate in
us to say I am of this ethnicity. We should
all have a state together, and perhaps so importantly, we
should deny rights to people who are not of that ethnicity.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
We don't have to be that way. We don't have
to be that way a man from from your looks
to God's ears.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
I always learned, you know, there was that I can't
remember the experiment, but it was they assigned class where
people with brown hair got privileges, and all of a sudden,
the people with blond hair were like and they got that,
and then the people with brown hair started to kind
of abuse the people with here. And there's a part
of me that thinks, boy, we could solve religious differences,
(31:06):
and somehow we would go back to killing each other
over something else equally is arbitrary. And that I'm wondering
how you get that that zero sum game element that
you witnessed up front out of it, because I'd like
to believe it's not malevolence but ignorance and fear.
Speaker 16 (31:30):
I think there's a lot of fear. Frankly, I think
is a lot of anger, right, I think, and obviously
for obvious reasons, you would notice a better than me.
But I sense that alive. It is the humiliation of
the Holocaust. I think that is, you know, very very
much president, and not feeling like I will never be
in that position again.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
Sure you know, well never, I mean never again. I
think the thing that so many Jewish people and not everybody, look,
it's not a monolith either Jewish religious Jewish culture is
certainly not a monolith. And there's many different opinions. I
think if we start from a baseline of I would
like a safe and secure Israel and a safe and
(32:09):
secure palacy, and that's my starting point to any argument,
and then we're just talking strategy. But I think the
idea of never again, you don't you try to internalize it,
not just as a self defense kind of dictum. You
(32:31):
hope to think of that as never again for anyone.
And that's the part that feels the worst when you
look at it in that way. And I'm curious how
you feel, you know, so in Africa, you know, I'm
curious about what you think about this idea of diaspora
(32:54):
when people are in diasporas, and it carries this weight
of you are lost, you are not in a place
where you can you know. I don't think Italian people
who live in America think of themselves as I'm in
a diaspora. They think of themselves as like I'll take
a tour. But Jewish people, black people, there's this feeling
(33:15):
of somehow we're not safe, and I feel like that's
a dangerous that's a dangerous thing.
Speaker 16 (33:24):
Does it Does it not come from being degraded and
being made to feel like you are outside of the
place that maybe you would like to call home.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
This is great, that's interesting book, the pity of it all.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And it's about Jews in Germany.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
Are you going to make me read something?
Speaker 12 (33:42):
No?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
No, no, it's gonna be quick.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I probably to be quick about that.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
Still just getting through breaking bad. I can't even.
Speaker 16 (33:48):
But it's all of these you know, Jews who in
all these German Jews who want to be German right,
like they really really want to believe in Germany, and
they get the Holocaust right, you know what I mean?
Like that has to ASSULTI a sense of, you know,
the idea that you can somehow be safe out.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
And then how much then does humiliation play a part
in all of it, including kind of what has been
But we would consider the modern age version of exploitation
and colonialism, like I mean, even when we think about
the regions that you were, that you went into, we're
kind of a post World War One mandate that was drawn,
you know, Lebanese Syrian Palestine mandate. The French are gonna
(34:28):
take this, the English are gonna take that. I mean,
it's it's you know, pawns on a board that people
are moving around. And does that humiliate a region to
the point where if we don't address that, we can't
get through it?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah? I think so, I think so.
Speaker 16 (34:45):
I mean I will say that one of the hard
things about that, and getting a little too psychological about
this is I spent.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Ten days there, so you know it all exactly. Its
things was.
Speaker 16 (35:00):
I have to tell you that the perspective of Palestinians
and the extent to which their perspective has been pushed
so far out of the frame was incredible.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I felt like I was seeing a new world, right,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 16 (35:12):
And that's it's like shameful for me to admit I'm
not bragging about that you know, it's not because that
world wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That world doesn't you know, hasn't been trying to present itself.
Speaker 16 (35:20):
But I mean, I just wonder how many of these
conversations would be improved if our media organizations made a
concerted effort whenever they talk about this topic to ask,
do we have anybody Palestinian that we've invited to be.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
Allowed on those democratic prevention or yeah, I.
Speaker 9 (35:39):
Mean I stuck.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
I think I think access to different stories has always
been a difficulty for America in general because of that
sort of salveacistic world. You know, we we tend to
be slightly narcissistic when it comes to the vision of it,
and it's such a nessy everything. I wonder if it
(36:02):
really improves it. I mean, here's something that I grapple with.
I've known about it forever. I have friends who have
Palestating families who've suffered through it. I have friends in
Israel who suffered through it. And it sometimes feels as
though the only people that benefit are the powers that be,
(36:22):
and all these good people are so left behind by
this weird power structure that we left in place there.
And I don't but you bring up an interesting point,
which is a path forward of reconciling humiliation, And I
(36:43):
don't know what is the mechanism of that? Is there one?
And is it that sort of you know, you think
about South Africa and truth and reconciliation, but is there
a mechanism to heal that for people or is it
purely self determination?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And that's I don't know.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Well, that's all the time we have. I don't know,
but it is I wonder because you bring up such
an interesting it is such a powerful river of emotion
and when you say, I can almost not cry talking
about because it's it's so deeply gets at the heart
(37:24):
of our humanity, like people just want to be seen
and just want to be no.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And it's probable I could feel it, you know, I could.
I could really feel.
Speaker 16 (37:33):
One thing I would suggest is and we have actually
had this struggle with this as African Americans. And I'll
tell you this from the black respective, there is great,
not always spoken shame in the black community over the
kind of physical traumas we've endured. You have to understand, man,
(37:57):
every single one of us, every single African American, is
a child of sexual violence.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
All of us, all of US.
Speaker 16 (38:03):
There is not a single pure African African American who
came through us sleep. There is an amount of humiliation
in that. There is an amount of humiliation in watching
and I've written about this, you know, films from the
sixties and watching these kids and these children, you know,
get beaten.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
By the cops. There is humiliation.
Speaker 16 (38:20):
And you know, watching today, you know what I mean,
George Floyd, you know, a knee on his neck. And
I do think you know, a significant part of it
is understanding, particularly with the past. These people didn't want
to be enolaved, you know what I mean. People didn't
want to get beat And it's not true that these
people did nothing. It's not true that these people just willingly,
(38:41):
you know, you know, went to it. There was a
slogan out for a while. A lot of us shouted down,
we are not our ancestors, as if they say, we
somehow are more you know, resilient and resistant, you know
what I mean, We're not gonna be punked and trumped. Yes,
what if we had been then were the same thing
would have happened.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
You know.
Speaker 5 (38:59):
There's such an analog with that with the Jewish community,
and there is you know, and you hear it a
lot about you know, the first thing Hitler did is
he disarmed the Jews, And you're like, the Jews were
not like gun tote and mother, like you know if
you had taking our violins, maybe like, oh, they disarmed
the Jews and that's how Hitler was able to get
(39:20):
the Jews to do that. And you're like, oh, you
know who had guns and didn't do too well with Hitler? France, right, right, right,
But you're right. There's that sense of like, how could
you let your people? How could you allow that to happen?
And it does skew their perspectives And I can already
(39:41):
see your next book where you fix it all. It's
really it's an amazing case that the main thing is.
And listen, man, like, let's not kid ourselves. Once you
delve into Israel past, you're going to take a ton
of shit. I don't know where it's it'll come from everywhere,
(40:01):
and I hope you don't wear it personally. But you've
done the most important thing.
Speaker 16 (40:07):
Yes, please, It will not measure up to the brands
of what I saw Palestinians on the West Bank.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Bear it's.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
That's an excellent portant. The only point I was going
to make is through your discomfort, albeit not the same discomfort,
You've done the most important thing, which is try to
advance and delve into an understanding of a complexity that
we haven't figured out in ten thousand years. And so
(40:37):
I applaud that. And your writing, as always is so
beautiful and moving. So thank you so much for being here.
The message to you to tell you so break I
really want.
Speaker 12 (41:09):
I'm not gonna help for.
Speaker 5 (41:10):
Tonight, but before we go, we're gonna take in with
your host for the rest of the week, Michael cos
and Michael Coss. What do we got going with? Good?
Speaker 9 (41:18):
Where do we What have we got?
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Michael?
Speaker 8 (41:21):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
You know we got a big day tomorrow, John.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
The vice presidential debate is tomorrow night, and the Daily
Show will be airing live right.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
After it balls. Butthole Dick's titties, I'm.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
What well, So I don't want to let a curse
word slip out on live TV. So I'm getting all
my bad words out now, skulk, nutsack, jizz. You see, John,
I want tomorrow night to be classy ass nipple.
Speaker 15 (42:05):
But I mean.
Speaker 5 (42:08):
Just not a like strategic basis, isn't We're not going
to make you more comfortable swearing on TV. Well, I
think it'll be okay.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Face Michael God, everybody.
Speaker 13 (42:21):
Migrants that came in illegally. That was so vicious like
you've never seen before. If you wanted to do a movie,
there's no actor in Hollywood that could play the role.
There's nobody that could do. These actors, you know, they're
a little bit shaky. They can't play the role. They'll
bring in a big actor and you look, you say, oh,
he's got no muscle.
Speaker 9 (42:41):
Content got no muscle. We need a little muscle.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Watch The Daily Show week nights at eleven ten Central
on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount
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Speaker 6 (43:06):
Paramount Podcasts
You're listening to Comedy Central.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Center is America's
only sorts for news.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
This is the Daily Show with your host show Store.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
On that show right at the top.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Store.
Speaker 5 (00:49):
We gotta party the show for it tonight. First of all,
let's go Mets. Second of all, Tana Hosey Kilts is
gonna be joining us later to talk. But New York
finally getting back to normal traffic wise, the UN General
Assembly is over. And by the way, what a successful
(01:12):
General Assembly it was. The world just exploding with peace
right now, just great session, guys. Now that the Assembly's gone,
New York is getting ready for its next big event,
the vice presidential debate tomorrow night. Honestly, I'm not even
(01:33):
gonna watch it, and I'm gonna tell you why. I
already know who I'm voting for vice president wise, but
I'm gonna be honest. President still undecided. So here's the thing.
As an undecided it's basically me and six people who
are kicked in the head by very powerful horses. I've
(01:57):
been leaning towards Kamala Harris because of her impress resume
and her ability to switch from Indian to Black, and
if we were doing this show fifteen years ago, I
would probably be doing the voices a long time ago.
(02:27):
But on the other hand, about Kamala Harris, I've been
hearing some very concerning things about her.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
She's come under some criticism for being relatively vague in
her policy proposals.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
They don't have enough specifics on the solutions. When she
tried to explain what she would do, it made no sense.
This jebbish. The public demands a detailed plan of action,
and they're not getting it from her.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
We demand that.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
If there is one thing that the American public demands,
it is a detailed plan of Ooh, the Golden Bachelorette.
(03:13):
I hope they selected candidates who lived nearby her, because
old people are not known to want to change their lives. Anyway,
back to the point. The point is Harris speaks gibberish
because she's part Indian, part Black, and part gibber If
(03:34):
Kamala Harris dissolves into gibberish every time she's asked for
specific policies, then I dare say she will not earn
my completely irrelevant New Jersey vote.
Speaker 7 (03:43):
I will get rid of unnecessary decree requirements for federal jobs,
low and low interest loans to small businesses. Expand the
tax deduction for startups to fifty thousand dollars. Six thousand
dollars in tax relief of families during the first year
of a child's life, capital gains will be twenty eight percent.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
Excuse me, but as Americans, we demanded a detailed plan
of action, not random numbers. You have left the door
wide open, lady, because clearly Donald aloisious Trump would not
(04:28):
he would not trifle with America in that manner. What
are the specific mechanics of how prices come down? You
know the steps that would be taken in a second
term for you. Good question, mister Trump. What is your
(04:52):
detailed plan of action for bringing down prices? And I
believe I'll mark your responses on this handy dandy child.
I already have my I'll have my pen ready all
(05:31):
the way up here at the top of specificity and
make sensitude begin.
Speaker 8 (05:36):
First of all, she can't do an interview. She could
never do this interview because you ask questions like give
me a specific answer. She talks about her lawn when
she was growing up. This woman is not equipped to
be president.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
I guess they had the wrong chart. The question, sir,
was specific to how are you going to bring down inflation?
Your answer so far has been but perhaps I cut
you off unfairly.
Speaker 8 (06:34):
She's not equipped to deal with president She who was
very I took in hundreds of billions of dollars with
him and Putin. We had no war with Putin. Remember,
and I'm just going to go off just for this.
With Bush, they took a lot. Russia. With Biden, they're
trying to take everything.
Speaker 9 (06:52):
With Obama, they took a lot.
Speaker 8 (06:55):
With Trump, Russia took nothing.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Just remember that. You know what, maybe he didn't really
(07:20):
want to talk about his inflation policy since economists say
it would make inflation worse, which you know is the
wrong direction. Let's give Trump a second chance.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
If you win in November, can you commit to prioritizing
legislation to make childcare affordable? And if so, what specific
piece of legislation will you advance.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Oh, that's a fabulous question. That's a fabulous question. Children
need childcare, whether it's a nanny or duct tape to
a chair with an iPad. But it costs money, obviously,
duct tape and iPads and in app purchases.
Speaker 10 (08:03):
Well, I would do that, and we're sitting down, you know,
I was somebody we had said at a Marco Rubio
and my daughter Ivanka was so impactful on that issue.
Speaker 9 (08:15):
It's a very important issue.
Speaker 10 (08:16):
But I think when you talk about the kind of
numbers that I'm talking about that because look, childcare is childcare.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Us.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Now, we could let the tip continue where he says
we will pay for childcare with the trillions we're going
to receive by levying tariffs on foreign nations, which apparently
isn't how that works. But get one more.
Speaker 6 (09:00):
Political opponents are saying that you want to ban IVF.
Those who are watching here tonight who may be going
through this same struggle and are concerned about being able
to have this option, and I'd love for you to
talk to them about how they should feel.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Life is pretty tough.
Speaker 9 (09:19):
It can be beautiful, but it can be difficult.
Speaker 10 (09:23):
We are doing something with IBF because if as you
know from friends and people, you know, it's really worked
out very well for a lot of people.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
It gave them a child when they would not have
had a child. And I told my people I wanted
to look at this.
Speaker 10 (09:38):
A couple of weeks ago, and as you know, we
have no taxes one of the things called tips.
Speaker 9 (09:46):
You know that, what the actual are you talking about?
Speaker 5 (10:17):
How do you want people to feel about IVF? Well,
I have no taxes on a thing called tips. You
know what I do? Actually see the uh I get
it now? So you see IVF fertilizes an egg with
a sperm, and sperm comes from a penis, and a
penis has a tip. So I can only assume Donald
(10:42):
Trump is talking about circumcision, which Jews call a tax
on tips. All right, let's move on. So clearly what
people like about Donald Trump is not his clear specific policies,
(11:03):
as they demand from Kamala Harris. But I'm still open.
I'm an undecided voter, you know, because of the horse
kicked him ahead. Let's hear some of Trump's passionate supporters
explain what they see as his strands.
Speaker 8 (11:15):
He has really become the candidate of the working man,
of the everyman.
Speaker 11 (11:19):
President Trump cares deeply about rig workers, truck drivers, roughnecks.
Speaker 12 (11:25):
He worked with plumbers and electricians, He worked with painters
and brick layers. President Trump is the best friend American
workers have ever had in the White house.
Speaker 9 (11:36):
He's our best friend. Donald Trump is the champion of hard.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Working men and women. He's behind every kind of worker,
from auto to sex. The kind of people.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Donald Trump is.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Behind the kind of people who have to work over
time to pay the bill.
Speaker 13 (12:00):
I know a lot about overtime. I'd hated they give overtime.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I hated it.
Speaker 13 (12:05):
I'd get other people.
Speaker 10 (12:06):
I shouldn't say this, but I'd get other people and
I wouldn't say I hated.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Yeah, you're right, you shouldn't have said that. You shouldn't
have said it at all, because you're a knitting to
freaking people over who work for you. I mean, it's funny,
but it undercuts the working man's friend thing. Well, yeah,
it's fine you don't want to get them overtime, but
it's not like you think it's funny to fire them
when they complain about something like not getting overtime.
Speaker 14 (12:32):
Well, you you're the greatest cutter.
Speaker 13 (12:35):
I mean, I look at what you do.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
You walk in and you just say you want to
do it. They go on strike.
Speaker 8 (12:40):
I won't mention the name of.
Speaker 13 (12:41):
The company, but they go on strike, and you say,
that's okay.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
You're all gone. You're all gone.
Speaker 13 (12:45):
So every one of you is gone.
Speaker 12 (12:48):
Ha ha.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
I gotta say, every time Trump talks about workers, it's
like watching a Christmas Carol in reverse. I just fired
these three ghosts who are trying to get over time.
So the supporting the working man thing is nonsense. What
other things do his supporters like about him?
Speaker 10 (13:12):
I think in sixty five days of American people are
going to vote for President Trump because they know he's
the guy who will defend their right to speak.
Speaker 8 (13:18):
You're aligned with each other on other key issues like
detecting freedom of speech.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
Okay, I get it now. So it's not really a
policy case for Trump. It's a principal case for Trump
the man. No matter what is said about him, he
believes in the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the government
should never punish speech, even if you don't like the speech.
Speaker 15 (13:38):
Mister Trump saying publicly the FCC should revoke ABC's license
over unfounded claims about ABC News allegedly rigging the presidential debate.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
For President, Trump says that he will deport students who
participate in pro policy and process.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Donald Trump said that anyone who criticizes the Supreme Court
justices should be.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Arrested in jails Donald Trump earlier today said you burned
the American flag, you should get.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
A year behind Mars.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
During the twenty twenty four campaign, Trump has been quote
venting about the need to punish late night comedians for
their anti Trump material.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Isn't being on Basic cable at eleven pm punishment enough? God,
So we know the policy thing about free speech and
the hero of the working class thing are all bullshit.
But I'm still underside. I'm still open. Give me something
I could work with. He's an anti war guy. He
(14:50):
is going to get us out of these endless wars.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
President Trump believes that the next four years we need
no new wars.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
First of all, I didn't know Max Headroom still had
a shot. But phil anti war. I'm anti war. I'm
absolutely behind that sentiment.
Speaker 12 (15:17):
But if I were the president, I would inform the
threatening country in this case Iran, that if you do
anything to harm to this person, we are going to
blow your largest cities and the country itself to smitherines.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
We're gonna blow it to smitherings. You can't do that.
He just war with I run. I mean, at least
doesn't count. We've been bombing them for forty years. They
love it okay, forget about ideals, forget about policies. What
(15:53):
are the personal qualities you're voting for? People?
Speaker 11 (15:56):
Just like that?
Speaker 5 (15:57):
That honesty of Donald Trump, he tells it like it
is a man of his word. He's a truth teller.
Are you stetting me right now?
Speaker 16 (16:09):
Are you?
Speaker 15 (16:11):
Are you?
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Right now?
Speaker 9 (16:15):
He is a truth hell.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
They're eating the dogs.
Speaker 14 (16:24):
Oh and by the way, they're eating the cats, anything else,
they're eating the pets of the people that live there.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
Now, mew yamy, Now now I'm yell of the people
that live by the only monster on TikTok no nobody else.
(17:00):
My wife sent me dout like ten times. And so
we find ourselves not in a dilemma, but in a
bit of a conundrum. The qualities and policies that people
profess to be what they admire and love about former
President Trump don't seem to be an accurate reflection of
said former president. It's as though they've created a fictional character,
(17:21):
a bizarro Trump, whose accomplishments and character bear little resemblance
to the self aggrandizing, perpetual victim guy. He continues to
tell you explicitly that he is. It makes you wonder
what country does Donald Trump think he's running to lead.
Speaker 11 (17:40):
Our cities have already become hell halls, a crime ridden,
gang infested, terror filled dumping ground, bloodshed, chaos and violent crime,
a deluge of illegals pouring in by the Midians and Midians.
Speaker 12 (17:54):
Drug dealers, human.
Speaker 11 (17:56):
Traffickers, bloodthirsty terrorsts, savage gang members, while stone cold killers.
Speaker 10 (18:02):
You can't walk across the street to get a loaf
of bread, You get shot, teenagers cut to shreds. They'll
walk into your kitchen, they'll cut your throat.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Oh wait, I see this fictional Trump, who is portrayed
as much better than he actually is, is running to
be president of a country he paints as much worse
than it actually is. But I got to tell you,
whatever country that is where families are routinely murdered several
times while making breakfast, could really use actual Donald Trump.
(18:51):
The rest of us not so much. When we come back,
Sanahase Coats will be here. Don't go away.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
All about with.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
A mail coat. My death tonight it critically acclaimed bestselling author.
Because your book is called a message, Please welcome back
to the program, Tanah Houston Coats. Hello, Hello, my friend,
(19:47):
you are grappling. This is a book of grappling. It's reparations,
the purpose of art, the purpose of writing, your role,
your response ability the Israel, Palestine. I can see you
want to go back to just writing comic books again.
(20:08):
This is what was in you that you thought I
need to take on these big questions, including what is
this for? What is what is writing for?
Speaker 16 (20:22):
I have for a long time had in the back
of my head that we do not have a complete
understanding of politics. That is to say, we think of
politics as what happens inside of a voting booth.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You go in and you choose, you know, pull a
lever for whatever right.
Speaker 16 (20:34):
But there's a whole, entire architecture that happens outside of
that voting booth that defines what goes on inside of it,
what issues are appropriate.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Frankly, who is human and who is not?
Speaker 16 (20:45):
And that is the work of stories, movies, television shows,
writing all of that and being a writer, and this
coming out of you know, me talking to my students
at Howard University at the time, I really really wanted
to address that.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You know, so often I get the question why should
I write.
Speaker 12 (21:03):
Now?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
In general? But by the time they get to me.
Speaker 16 (21:05):
They usually my students are like there, but a lot
of you know, other times when I'm you know, out
in the world, what is writing gonna do?
Speaker 12 (21:11):
Like?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
What is it actually gonna change?
Speaker 16 (21:12):
And what I wanted people to understand is writing actually
shapes the world around you entirely.
Speaker 12 (21:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
See I would have said basic cable, but okay, right.
Speaker 16 (21:20):
For somebody has to write the scripts, right, somebody, that's
exactly rightactly exactly is that?
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Do you grapple with that as a burden or a
call to arms? What is for you? How do you
wear it? Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It's exciting.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
It's exciting.
Speaker 16 (21:38):
It gets me up in the morning, right, It like
pumps my blood like I can't wait, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Like there are people who.
Speaker 16 (21:45):
I got a friend who's in the yard doc right,
and I was texting this morning about, you know, everything
that was going on, and he disappeared for it.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
He said, sorry this the guy just got shot. I'm sorry.
Speaker 16 (21:54):
And I said to him, how beautiful is it to
have work that actually matters? Are you out there saving
people's lives? And I'm not an ear doctor, but it
is a blessing to feel like what I write actually
matters in the world, right, I mean, it gives me
meaning and purpose, And I kind of wanted to convey that,
you know, to all the young writers you know, who
hopefully as inspiration.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Yes, yes, your friend was at work when the guy
got shot. He was because first second I was like, wait,
he was at work, work, you were talking to me.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
He was at work?
Speaker 5 (22:25):
All right, that's that's that's very good. Do you get frustrated?
And this is something that that I think about sometimes
that the world that you would prefer to see that
the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice, and
the work of writing is trying to help facilitate that.
That it is that that that arc of moral justice
(22:46):
is so resilient against bending that it's so hard to
matter in that form.
Speaker 16 (22:53):
I get sad, right, And there a lot of moments
in here where I was really sad, right, you know,
But at the same time, like I said, it fills
me with purpose. I don't know if I would add
a purpose I talked about just a few minutes ago,
you know, without that great difficulty. Honestly, it feels great
(23:14):
to know that if I actually try really really hard
at the thing, if I actually worked really, really hard
to write the best book I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You know that I could be here talking to you
that it.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
Actually you could have written and been on here.
Speaker 9 (23:27):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
If that's the case, I can tell you that that
you didn't have to work nearly this hard.
Speaker 15 (23:34):
But it is.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
It's a beautifully felt book. I want to ask you,
there's a certain aspect of your career that has really
tried to reconcile, not with things in the present, but
they're vestiges the structures racial politics, slavery, economic injustices where
(23:57):
it might not be the active virus, but it's the
vestiges of it that still, you know, leach into the
groundwater and make it toxic and polluted. This book felt
a little different in that you were also going into
the present and bringing those lessons with you, and I thought,
I thought that was a really moving part of the book.
Speaker 16 (24:20):
Yeah, that that's true, And I guess I'm gonna be
the one that broached this. But it was obviously most
active when I was in Jerusalem, when I was in Haipho,
when I was.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
On the West Bad. I mean, it was it was
the history, but the history was active, and that was
that was tough.
Speaker 16 (24:37):
That was something I'm used to, you know, going to
some you know, slave plantation and saying, well, yeah, this
did happen one hundred fifty years ago, but here's how
you know, you can still feel the impact and you
got no, no, it's right now, right, it's right now,
and it comes on the hills.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
So in the book, you're also you take a trip
to Senegal.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I do, yes.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Is that in relation to your trip to Israel and
the West Bank in that same time frame or is
that was that split out?
Speaker 16 (25:01):
It was about it was so I think I went
in this would have been like September of twenty twenty
two to Senegal and in May of twenty three to
the West Bank and to Israel, and weirdly enough, they
are in conversation with each other. I can't say I
intended that, right.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
Well, that's that's why I was curious, because there is
a music there between the two.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, that there is.
Speaker 16 (25:25):
I mean, Senegal is very much about me, frankly, investigating
the very stories that gave me my name, you know,
and gave me my identity, and trying to work through
that and frankly not completely working through it by the
time I got over there and then you know, I
take this trip, you know, with this wonderful organization of
Palestinian Palestine Festival of Literature, and I get over there,
(25:47):
you know, for five days, and I spent another five
days with these x IDF guys, you know what I mean,
who had had their own political evolution. And this is
very weird to say, but it's much sympathy as I
had for the Palestinians watching Zionism.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
In the world.
Speaker 16 (26:06):
Even feeling like this is wrong, what I'm saying is wrong.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I was like, my god, I know how you get here.
I know how you get I know how it happens.
And I don't mean like I approve of it, but
I mean like, I see, I see how it happens.
I totally see how it happens.
Speaker 5 (26:20):
Is how you see how it happens, because you talk
about Yad Vashem and going there and being moved is
the idea. Because you have a line in the book
that I think is one of the most powerful, which
is and I want to make sure that I get
it right, which is your oppression will not save you,
which is, and you write about that in relation to
(26:44):
the black experience in America, but also about the Jewish
experience in the Holocaust as well as in Israel. And
what did you mean by that?
Speaker 16 (26:55):
I think we would like to think that you go through,
you know, a horrific experience, be it the Middle Passes
Jim Crow here, be at the Holocaust, or the centuries
before that of programs, oppression, et cetera, and somehow you
will be more really improved by coming out of that.
You might be, You might be, but it's just as
(27:17):
likely that you will conclude than in fact. The world
is a cold, hard place and it's a zero sum game,
you know what I mean, And what matters is who
has the guns and who doesn't. You know, I stand
opposed to that, just on principal period, you know what
I mean. But I get how people take that lesson,
(27:38):
you know what I mean, And I think it's disconvining
for us to feel because we feel sympathy for people, you.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Know what I mean.
Speaker 16 (27:43):
When I'm walking through Yad Vashim and I'm feeling it
on a very very deep level, only to come back
here and realize I was, you know, about a mile
away from a massacre of a Palestinian village, that's hard
to take.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
It. You know what I mean since I was I'm
raised in obviously cultural Jewish tradition, and I imagine, you know,
if you were to feel like people in the name
of your people did some things that you found objectionable,
it hits you different.
Speaker 16 (28:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, no, it does, it does, it does,
and it's not a complete parallel. But that's why in
that chapter I wanted to talk a little bit about
Liberia for instance, you know what I mean, and just
the idea, I get it, the appeal of hey, we're
going to have a state of our own. We're gonna
get away from these people that did you know, X, Y,
and Z for us, we will have safety there.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And yet then you.
Speaker 16 (28:33):
Find yourself enacting, you know, systems that, if not are
the same or similar, at least you know, morally deeply problematic, and.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Having to justify them through either threat or the situation
or you don't understand. And what I'm what I'm wondering
is is that the story, in a condensed form of
all of us is does for society to progress, does
their also have to be exploitation? Do you grapple with
(29:03):
this idea that when we think about anything, whether it's
the American story or the Israeli story or any of those.
It's stories of empire, whether it's the Ottoman Empire or
the Caliphate. It's groups of people living under the grace
of a leader who controls their lives. And can we
(29:25):
progress outside of that?
Speaker 12 (29:27):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (29:28):
Do you think about is there another way to do this?
Has there been another way to do this? If we
shine that light on any country that grew through, won't
there be a story of exploitation and mistreatment that we find,
maybe not as horrific, but we find it.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 16 (29:45):
I think though, we have to guard against the temptation
to accept that history is necessary the limits of who
we are rightman beings, just because I mean, you know
that's been you know that it's been that way, that
it necessarily has to be that way. I will, for instance,
highlight you know, the underlying role of nationalism and the
belief that a nation state is the way to secure
(30:07):
and safeguard a minority. That is a very recent development
as a belief system. Actually, you know that is not eternal.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
That's prior to that. Wouldn't it have been tribalism or
wouldn't it would have been something?
Speaker 16 (30:19):
Would it would have been a pope it would have
been you know my allegiances, you know X, Y and Z.
But what I'm saying is it is not innate in
us to say I am of this ethnicity. We should
all have a state together, and perhaps so importantly, we
should deny rights to people who are not of that ethnicity.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
We don't have to be that way. We don't have
to be that way a man from from your looks
to God's ears.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
I always learned, you know, there was that I can't
remember the experiment, but it was they assigned class where
people with brown hair got privileges, and all of a sudden,
the people with blond hair were like and they got that,
and then the people with brown hair started to kind
of abuse the people with here. And there's a part
of me that thinks, boy, we could solve religious differences,
(31:06):
and somehow we would go back to killing each other
over something else equally is arbitrary. And that I'm wondering
how you get that that zero sum game element that
you witnessed up front out of it, because I'd like
to believe it's not malevolence but ignorance and fear.
Speaker 16 (31:30):
I think there's a lot of fear. Frankly, I think
is a lot of anger, right, I think, and obviously
for obvious reasons, you would notice a better than me.
But I sense that alive. It is the humiliation of
the Holocaust. I think that is, you know, very very
much president, and not feeling like I will never be
in that position again.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
Sure you know, well never, I mean never again. I
think the thing that so many Jewish people and not everybody, look,
it's not a monolith either Jewish religious Jewish culture is
certainly not a monolith. And there's many different opinions. I
think if we start from a baseline of I would
like a safe and secure Israel and a safe and
(32:09):
secure palacy, and that's my starting point to any argument,
and then we're just talking strategy. But I think the
idea of never again, you don't you try to internalize it,
not just as a self defense kind of dictum. You
(32:31):
hope to think of that as never again for anyone.
And that's the part that feels the worst when you
look at it in that way. And I'm curious how
you feel, you know, so in Africa, you know, I'm
curious about what you think about this idea of diaspora
(32:54):
when people are in diasporas, and it carries this weight
of you are lost, you are not in a place
where you can you know. I don't think Italian people
who live in America think of themselves as I'm in
a diaspora. They think of themselves as like I'll take
a tour. But Jewish people, black people, there's this feeling
(33:15):
of somehow we're not safe, and I feel like that's
a dangerous that's a dangerous thing.
Speaker 16 (33:24):
Does it Does it not come from being degraded and
being made to feel like you are outside of the
place that maybe you would like to call home.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
This is great, that's interesting book, the pity of it all.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And it's about Jews in Germany.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
Are you going to make me read something?
Speaker 12 (33:42):
No?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
No, no, it's gonna be quick.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I probably to be quick about that.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
Still just getting through breaking bad. I can't even.
Speaker 16 (33:48):
But it's all of these you know, Jews who in
all these German Jews who want to be German right,
like they really really want to believe in Germany, and
they get the Holocaust right, you know what I mean?
Like that has to ASSULTI a sense of, you know,
the idea that you can somehow be safe out.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
And then how much then does humiliation play a part
in all of it, including kind of what has been
But we would consider the modern age version of exploitation
and colonialism, like I mean, even when we think about
the regions that you were, that you went into, we're
kind of a post World War One mandate that was drawn,
you know, Lebanese Syrian Palestine mandate. The French are gonna
(34:28):
take this, the English are gonna take that. I mean,
it's it's you know, pawns on a board that people
are moving around. And does that humiliate a region to
the point where if we don't address that, we can't
get through it?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah? I think so, I think so.
Speaker 16 (34:45):
I mean I will say that one of the hard
things about that, and getting a little too psychological about
this is I spent.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Ten days there, so you know it all exactly. Its
things was.
Speaker 16 (35:00):
I have to tell you that the perspective of Palestinians
and the extent to which their perspective has been pushed
so far out of the frame was incredible.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I felt like I was seeing a new world, right,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 16 (35:12):
And that's it's like shameful for me to admit I'm
not bragging about that you know, it's not because that
world wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That world doesn't you know, hasn't been trying to present itself.
Speaker 16 (35:20):
But I mean, I just wonder how many of these
conversations would be improved if our media organizations made a
concerted effort whenever they talk about this topic to ask,
do we have anybody Palestinian that we've invited to be.
Speaker 5 (35:36):
Allowed on those democratic prevention or yeah, I.
Speaker 9 (35:39):
Mean I stuck.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
I think I think access to different stories has always
been a difficulty for America in general because of that
sort of salveacistic world. You know, we we tend to
be slightly narcissistic when it comes to the vision of it,
and it's such a nessy everything. I wonder if it
(36:02):
really improves it. I mean, here's something that I grapple with.
I've known about it forever. I have friends who have
Palestating families who've suffered through it. I have friends in
Israel who suffered through it. And it sometimes feels as
though the only people that benefit are the powers that be,
(36:22):
and all these good people are so left behind by
this weird power structure that we left in place there.
And I don't but you bring up an interesting point,
which is a path forward of reconciling humiliation, And I
(36:43):
don't know what is the mechanism of that? Is there one?
And is it that sort of you know, you think
about South Africa and truth and reconciliation, but is there
a mechanism to heal that for people or is it
purely self determination?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And that's I don't know.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Well, that's all the time we have. I don't know,
but it is I wonder because you bring up such
an interesting it is such a powerful river of emotion
and when you say, I can almost not cry talking
about because it's it's so deeply gets at the heart
(37:24):
of our humanity, like people just want to be seen
and just want to be no.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And it's probable I could feel it, you know, I could.
I could really feel.
Speaker 16 (37:33):
One thing I would suggest is and we have actually
had this struggle with this as African Americans. And I'll
tell you this from the black respective, there is great,
not always spoken shame in the black community over the
kind of physical traumas we've endured. You have to understand, man,
(37:57):
every single one of us, every single African American, is
a child of sexual violence.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
All of us, all of US.
Speaker 16 (38:03):
There is not a single pure African African American who
came through us sleep. There is an amount of humiliation
in that. There is an amount of humiliation in watching
and I've written about this, you know, films from the
sixties and watching these kids and these children, you know,
get beaten.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
By the cops. There is humiliation.
Speaker 16 (38:20):
And you know, watching today, you know what I mean,
George Floyd, you know, a knee on his neck. And
I do think you know, a significant part of it
is understanding, particularly with the past. These people didn't want
to be enolaved, you know what I mean. People didn't
want to get beat And it's not true that these
people did nothing. It's not true that these people just willingly,
(38:41):
you know, you know, went to it. There was a
slogan out for a while. A lot of us shouted down,
we are not our ancestors, as if they say, we
somehow are more you know, resilient and resistant, you know
what I mean, We're not gonna be punked and trumped. Yes,
what if we had been then were the same thing
would have happened.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
You know.
Speaker 5 (38:59):
There's such an analog with that with the Jewish community,
and there is you know, and you hear it a
lot about you know, the first thing Hitler did is
he disarmed the Jews, And you're like, the Jews were
not like gun tote and mother, like you know if
you had taking our violins, maybe like, oh, they disarmed
the Jews and that's how Hitler was able to get
(39:20):
the Jews to do that. And you're like, oh, you
know who had guns and didn't do too well with Hitler? France, right, right, right,
But you're right. There's that sense of like, how could
you let your people? How could you allow that to happen?
And it does skew their perspectives And I can already
(39:41):
see your next book where you fix it all. It's
really it's an amazing case that the main thing is.
And listen, man, like, let's not kid ourselves. Once you
delve into Israel past, you're going to take a ton
of shit. I don't know where it's it'll come from everywhere,
(40:01):
and I hope you don't wear it personally. But you've
done the most important thing.
Speaker 16 (40:07):
Yes, please, It will not measure up to the brands
of what I saw Palestinians on the West Bank.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Bear it's.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
That's an excellent portant. The only point I was going
to make is through your discomfort, albeit not the same discomfort,
You've done the most important thing, which is try to
advance and delve into an understanding of a complexity that
we haven't figured out in ten thousand years. And so
(40:37):
I applaud that. And your writing, as always is so
beautiful and moving. So thank you so much for being here.
The message to you to tell you so break I
really want.
Speaker 12 (41:09):
I'm not gonna help for.
Speaker 5 (41:10):
Tonight, but before we go, we're gonna take in with
your host for the rest of the week, Michael cos
and Michael Coss. What do we got going with? Good?
Speaker 9 (41:18):
Where do we What have we got?
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Michael?
Speaker 8 (41:21):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
You know we got a big day tomorrow, John.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
The vice presidential debate is tomorrow night, and the Daily
Show will be airing live right.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
After it balls. Butthole Dick's titties, I'm.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
What well, So I don't want to let a curse
word slip out on live TV. So I'm getting all
my bad words out now, skulk, nutsack, jizz. You see, John,
I want tomorrow night to be classy ass nipple.
Speaker 15 (42:05):
But I mean.
Speaker 5 (42:08):
Just not a like strategic basis, isn't We're not going
to make you more comfortable swearing on TV. Well, I
think it'll be okay.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Face Michael God, everybody.
Speaker 13 (42:21):
Migrants that came in illegally. That was so vicious like
you've never seen before. If you wanted to do a movie,
there's no actor in Hollywood that could play the role.
There's nobody that could do. These actors, you know, they're
a little bit shaky. They can't play the role. They'll
bring in a big actor and you look, you say, oh,
he's got no muscle.
Speaker 9 (42:41):
Content got no muscle. We need a little muscle.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Watch The Daily Show week nights at eleven ten Central
on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount
plus
Speaker 6 (43:06):
Paramount Podcasts
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