March 31, 2025 • 41 mins
Duke Head Men’s Basketball Coach Jon Scheyer reflects on the challenges of following Coach K., and shares how one missed shot shaped his life. College hoops insider Seth Greenberg breaks down the evolving college basketball landscape, and weighs in on Cooper Flagg's elite skill set. former NBA All-Star Gilbert Arenas reflects on his grudge against Duke, and ranks the best scorers he has ever faced.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to the Dan Patrick Show on Fox Sports.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Radio John Shier the third season dukead basketball coach moving
into the Final four. You've been there as a player,
You've been there as an assistant coach. What's it like
to be there as a head coach?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Dan, Well, it's great to be with you. You know
it couldn't be more excited about this opportunity. I'll feel it,
you know, I'll feel it in person in San Antonio,
But to be honest with you, it feels surreal, you know,
like it's the promised Land. Obviously we're hungry for more,
but couldn't be more excited by this opportunity.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You always want to be the guy who follows, the
guy who follows the legend. I'll go back to John Wooden,
and you know you didn't get that. You've got the
opportunity to coach, but you're following the legend. In Mike Ryzewski,
I don't know if you did research or talk to
people who were the ones following the legend as opposed
to following the person following the legend.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Well, you know what, Dan, I did more research on
successions then, uh, I think you can imagine you know,
especially in sport, right, but even in business.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
And I tried to find connections about you know, really
why you know others weren't as successful and what went
wrong and because in most cases it wasn't about what
went right. You know, it's it's been, it's been very difficult,
And I think the first and most important thing I
found was to be really connected with you know, the
(01:29):
former coach or the transition and for me, you know
the fact that Coach K and I are still.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
As close as could be and the succession.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Me and him were so connected about what had to
change and what had to improve.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
And what I had to do. But then obviously you're
not gonna win if you try to be somebody else.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And so I had to come to terms very quickly
with I'm not coach K, not gonna try to be him.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
I'm not gonna try to coach like him. I'm gonna
I'm gonna be myself.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
And wherever that takes us, you know, I can live
with at the end of the day, because that's the
only way I'm going to succeed.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is there a new philosophy in how to build a
team in college basketball? You guys might be the anomaly.
You got three freshmen who are going to be lottery picks.
But you're seeing a lot of these teams that a
couple of freshmen, but it's really about getting these you know,
transfer guys or guys who are going to stay for
three or four years.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Yeah, I think it has changed a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I think the biggest difference is now you have to
build your team based on year to year.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
You know, it's and look, it's.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
When I played, this is only fifteen years ago. When
I played the starting lineup in my group, we had
over one hundred starting game, over one hundred games together.
And look the team we're playing in Houston. Houston has
great experience together. But for the most part, it is
year to year. I think for me, the challenge is
trying to find some level of continuity, which I think
(02:55):
still can be done in a different way. We're still
bringing in really talented, already made players that we develop
over the course of the year and have big expectations
like the guys you you know you had mentioned as
freshman now, but I think we do it our own way,
and that's what I'm proud of. You know, I think
(03:15):
it's not going to be cookie Cutter, we need this
amount of transfers, returners, freshmen. I think it's based on
the level of readiness that the freshmen we recruit have
and then also the returners we can possibly bring back.
And I think as you look at our roster, Dan,
the combination of the Seon James, the Malik Browns, the
(03:37):
Mason Gillis, with the Tyrees, Proctor and Caleb Foster, well
that helps the freshmen having some level of experience with them.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
How would you do against Proctor in a shooting contest?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I would beat them, beat me in the game, but
I'm gonna beat any of our guys still, I think, Dan.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
How do you coach a freshman as opposed to a
junior senior.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I just think for these guys there's a level of
that they need to always hear the truth.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
You have to hit them right between the eyes. But
also at the.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Same time, you have to give them a really good
confidence because they're going through something they've never experienced before.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
You know, even I'm like, I'm so impressed with the
maturity these guys have.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Playing in my first NCAA tournament game and I remember
how I felt, and these guys haven't acted like it's.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
How did you feel.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I felt, you know, jittery, you know, I felt, you know, pressure.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
We are six seed playing Vcus an eleven seed, and
you just I think there's a tendency then to when
you're the higher seed, to play not to lose instead
of playing to win. And so I've tried to just
ingrain in them from day one in the preseason of
being the hunters, you know, not the hunted, and just
going after this thing.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
And they've embraced that and they've done that.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
But I think with the freshmen, just to continue to
give them confidence at the same time of trying to
prepare them for things that they hadn't seen before.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
And that's what I've tried to do.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
He's Duke's head coach John Shier joining us on the program.
Take me back to the Butler National title game when
you want Gordon Hayward wasn't your guy? Was he you were?
Speaker 5 (05:19):
He wasn't my guy in terms of me guarding him?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, yeah, I was ahead on the play that he
got the left. So I think people always think about
last half court shot, which is right.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
There, the one before that he had.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
We were under out of bounds, we were up by
one and he had an isolation play at the top
of the key and he ended up shooting about like
a fifteen footer from the baseline.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I thought it was going in, Dan, I was right
under the basket.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
It just probably if it's an inch shorter or it
goes in, it goes long. So that shot, to me,
was the one that scared me. I was already thinking
about the how we were gonna win with the timeout
or what we were going to do.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
But the half court shot was.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Something I'll never forget, and I just I felt to
hiss off with the last second. I was ahead on
the play, but but thank god he missed it.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
If he hit that shot, he becomes Latner.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, you know what, And probably I don't know if
I'm the head coach to Duke.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
I don't know if I think the whole I think my.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Whole life is.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I think there's a lot of things that could be
different from from from that shot.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But do you explain to your kids. And I don't
know if you feel this, but the Latner years, even
JJ Reddick, people hated Duke. Yeah, it doesn't feel that way.
This is this is a team that people may root for.
Maybe not root against, but they're not, you know, they're
they're like, hey, Cooper Flag looks great. I mean, you
(06:47):
got it seems like a fun team. They play, you know,
great offense and defense. Are you guys embraceable?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
I share, hope so.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
And look, it's funny because I think we are always
in brain. But like you said, I think it's a.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Different feeling, and I can't explain why that is.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
I hope it's the fact that you have a group
of really talented players that really embrace playing the right way.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
It's led to some beautiful offense and they're tough, you know,
like they're not afraid of anything. So I think that
combination maybe has been received well. But again not JJ Reddick.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Was the same.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
I want. I don't know what it is. I don't
know what it is.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Have you had the conversation with Cooper Flag about coming back?
Speaker 5 (07:35):
No, okay?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Just is there going to be a conversation?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
No?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Although I can dream about that, yes you can, I
just you know, I think that's all it is.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
In this case.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
I think it's a dream.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
And uh, I think he's got to take the next
dream in his life and be the topic in the
NBA Draft and start his professional career.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Before I let you go, remember two to Steve Nash
and he said during his career with Phoenix, coaches told
him he was too unselfish. There are times where I
see Cooper flag maybe too unselfish. The Phoenix Suns had
to tell Steve Nash to shoot more. Is Cooper Flagg
sort of in that it seems like he's really really
(08:19):
engaged to get everybody involved. And maybe I'm not going
to say the detriment you're hit the final four, but
are there times when you want him to be a
little more selfish.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think you hit the nail on the head with him, Dan,
because he's part of is what makes him so special
is him bringing along as teammates and his feel for
his passing. It is an incredible weapon for our team.
But also he can want to defer at times to
get them going and wor at our best. He's at
(08:48):
our best when he's in complete attack mode. Teammates will
get shots from that. But that's something I have to
It's probably the biggest thing we have to get on
him about and just making sure he's not deferring and
continually just looking to dominate which he can.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Good luck in the final four. John, great to connect
with you again. Thank you, thanks for having me. Appreciate
you and so John Shire.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
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Speaker 2 (10:20):
Seth Greenberg of the Mothership. What a busy guy. He
was the two time ACC Coach of the Year at
Virginia Tech. Where are those awards.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
In my office?
Speaker 8 (10:31):
Behind behind my desk somewhere?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Okay, do you proudly display those and like, hey, come
on into my office. Look what I got. Like if
I go into Coach K's office, you know I get
to see national championship trophies.
Speaker 8 (10:44):
Well, I mean, I'm not coach K, but I do
have twos you see coaching the Year, and what I
do is a FaceTime from my office. I showed them
prominently along with the wins against Duke in Carolina.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
What was your record against Duke?
Speaker 8 (10:59):
Was six?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And what were you against Dean Smith?
Speaker 8 (11:04):
I mean to coach against Stean, I'm not that old.
I coached against Roy. I think I had three wins
against Roy one of them was actually when they were
number one in the country at Kansas. It was weird.
I my teams we had four wins against number ones
and they were all on the road, which is kind
of bizarre.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Explain to me the role that coaching plays now as
opposed to maybe earlier in the tournament or during the
regular season.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
You know, everyone's gonna say this experience have a factor
comes in Final four. People have been through it, understand it.
Had an experience of dealing with all the requests and
media and kind of finding a balancing point for the preparation.
I think coaching has an impact every time of the year.
What are you gonna get, what are you gonna take away?
You know you're not gonna reinvent yourself in the n
(11:50):
C andm by tournament. How you get your guys to
understand what's the essence of what you have to do
to win, and then making sure you're managing the hardest
thing on four As an assistant coach at eighty four
with coachalent Is managing all the obligations and keeping the
guys focused, It's great. It's unique. You got you know,
police sports. You know you're practicing in front of twenty
(12:12):
five thousand people, you've got eight thousand people that want tickets.
Managing all that so you can stay focused on what's
most important the game and the very best figure out
all right, how do we get laser focused on the
things that are most important? And now it's even harder
with social media, with agents, with workout gurus, with all
the other obligations uh that players are asked. And then
(12:34):
also like some of these guys might end up transferred
at the end of the front of four.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I was talking to John Shier last hour about that
that the blueprint it feels like has changed where you
have the blue bloods are taking away the mid majors,
good players to prevent the you know, the mid majors
from making these Cinderella runs. They're already it's kind of
circumventing the system there a little bit. Instead of waiting
(12:59):
for this, they ca them in and grab those players.
And we're seeing less freshmen impact the tournament other than duke.
And it feels like now it's you know, maybe sophomores,
juniors and seniors. Is this is this what we should
be expecting in years to come, one.
Speaker 8 (13:15):
Hundred percent this is the future one hundred percent. Look
how old the Duke Look how old uh the Auburn
team is. You're starting on it. There's a twenty five
year old, a twenty three year old, a twenty four
year old. Uh, you can got one freshman Auburn, Todd Petterford,
You've got three freshmen. Basically at Duke, you don't have
another freshman. You've got every single team. Look look at
Florida's team. They got four MiG major transfers that are
(13:38):
having a huge impact on their team. So this is
the future, you know, with an iol with the transfer portal,
and that's why, in a lot of ways, this is
the way it's going to be. But we've got to
get guidelines and we just have to and we've got
to have contracts, and we've got to have incentives. And
the other thing we've got to do is we've got
to eventually put education back into this thing. Also, Like
(13:59):
you've got guys dreads for three or four times, it's
going to impact graduation. We've got to have incentives for
academic progress, retention, graduation, community service along with along with
obviously team success and then maybe some individual success. We've
got to base salaries we've got to find a way
to get this thing back. And I'm all for the
(14:21):
players making money, that's not they but we've got to
have some like maybe one. College basketball is a professional
sport right now, That's what it is. It's a professional sport.
Name a professional sport that has year to year free agency.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I don't think any well, the owners might allow it
to happen that because they, yes, they don't want it
to end.
Speaker 8 (14:43):
And people say, well, coaches can go anytime they want.
I agree, coaches go any time they want. And you
see a lot of coaches go from mid major to
high major. Sey Kevin Willard go from Maryland to Villanova.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Just a week.
Speaker 8 (14:53):
And that's true. And what do coaches have in their contracts?
They have to they have two way security. They've got
guaranteed if they get fired. But they also have buyouts.
And I actually think the part of the contracts with
the players needs to be a buyout. I don't care
who pays it. Player can pay it. The school that's
trying to get the kid can pay it. But if
we have buyouts and it's two ways and we have
(15:14):
two year contracts, we can get some continuity in the game.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
All four number one seeds reach the final four second
time that that happened two thousand and eight, the only
other time good thing for the tournament or a bad thing.
Speaker 8 (15:28):
This year a very good thing because those four teams
have separated themselves all season. Low all these four teams
that I think I'm not mistaking the bid number one
in the country. This is the future riving about all
four number ones. But the one number ones beat the
number twos. You saw what happened to Tennessee. You saw
what happened in Michigan State.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 8 (15:45):
I think it's good on good. You can see the
best players playing against each other. You can see the
best teams who've earned it with their body of work
throughout the season playing against each other. You're not just
going to see a sindal or Ella who gets out.
We don't have that many Cinderellas. We have them in
the first round of second round. There are very few
vcus and Loyola's. That doesn't happen very often. And I
look at upsets. You if you have a one in
(16:07):
the three and they're major conferences and they teams have
beaten other high level teams, it's no big thing. But
this year and the last time most of the four
number ones, it was in San Antonio. Also this year,
these four teams have separated themselves throughout the season. Their
body of work said that, you know, let's see good
on good. Let's see great defense in Houston and great
(16:29):
offense and defense in Duke. Let's see Jane I Broome
having as Willis Reed type moment coming out of the
locker room, you know, and making that and making that
three you know against you know, a Florida team with
Walter Clayton absolutely just took over two games. At the
end of the game. I actually think it's we have
a great final four.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Seth Greenberg, ESPN College basketball analysts. Let me go back
to Walter Clayton junior. I am a big proponent of
not letting your best player beat me, and for the
life of me, couldn't understand this. You know, that's the
one guy, right, everybody in the building knows that's the
one guy. Why am I not getting two people at him?
(17:11):
Why not am I? And I know he's quick, he's
got a quick release. All of that. I got to
take the ball out of his hands. Seth, I don't
understand this from a coaching perspective. Tell me what I'm
missing here?
Speaker 8 (17:25):
Look good, Look that was my philosophy. Every time I
want a big game, we took the oundead's best player out.
I mean it was just an automatic great Mcflasland did
that for a thirty six minutes. They blitzed him on
every ball street they got the ball out of his hands. Uh,
and they did an incredible job on him. They always
committed two to the ball and forced to kick it out.
Now one time, late game, look that upset. It takes
(17:49):
two to tag them. So like Texas Tech help him
by missing the free throws. Text helped him by taking
some quick shots. And then you know Thomas how happened.
He makes those first two three which were huge, one
of them on a pass off a double team where
they got the ball of Clayton's hands and he gave
it up early and help knocked down a big three
late in the game. I have one hundred percent agree
(18:11):
with you. Late in the game, I thought Clayton did
a really good job of relocating quickly before they could
sit send a second guy at him. The one the
last one he made where he was inside the three
point line about the foul line, and he turned and
dribbled out and got himself squared up. I asked, jday
will be a day? How hard I couldn't. I can't
(18:32):
relate to it?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
How hard is that to do?
Speaker 8 (18:35):
And like it's really hard? So like I give the
guy credit for making those plays. But that's what Grant
mccasla wanted to do. But he, like he said, he
thought it seemed got a little tired and lost its focus.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
And and you knows your focus on that guy and
he send you home.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, And you're right about the free throws because if
they make the free throws, then there there's no heroics there.
How would you describe Cooper Flag's game to somebody who
hadn't seen him play?
Speaker 8 (19:05):
The most versatile player I've seen, And I compare him
to Grant Hill, Scottie Pippen very much, those two guys.
I think in Jason Tatum, he's got kind of a
mixture of all three those guys. I mean, he innitiate
your offense kind of like they do with Tatum and
Scottie Pippin Dady, He's cores at all three levels. People
(19:28):
don't really appreciate his seven two wingspan he's got great
defensive range and he's so damn unselfish, like he's a
terrific passer. I mean his feel for the game. For
he's eighteen years old. He's eighteen years old, and he
just plays like total like I got this, We're in
(19:51):
good shape. Never gets to it now his mom has
lost her mind, but he is perfectly fine. Like that.
Dude's playing in the biggest games and in the VIMI
it's knocking out big shots. And like his mom, he
made a couple of turnovers early in the game and
the first thing he hears from his mouth and the
three turnables, you got to be better with the ball.
I mean, it is a high standard. It is a
(20:11):
high standard in the Flat family.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
I understand that.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
But he's a unique and you know, people say unicorn.
I don't know. I've never met a unicorn, so I
don't know what corn is. But the dude is like really,
he's not only special, but his demeanor is special and
yet being fiercely competitive.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
You coaching against Duke when people hated Duke. Yeah, but
this team is embraced. I said to coach Schier. I said,
people don't dislike Duke like they're kind of like, yeah,
you might not root for him, but it doesn't feel
like you're rooting against them.
Speaker 8 (20:49):
Yeah. I mean a little bit I'd do with Mike
and Eve Lumpire and had to do it.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
You know, just the.
Speaker 8 (20:55):
Amount of success he had, the consistency and success they
Duke became Yankees. You loved him, you hated him, you know,
it's just just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Uh So.
Speaker 8 (21:07):
I mean Coach K and what he was able to
build and a consistency that he had. People got tired
of him, and you know, either you liked him or
you didn't like it John Shire, and I'm glad you
had him all to me. He's incredible. He is so
comfortable in his own skin. He's not Coach K two
point zero or one point zho. He's John Shire two
(21:28):
point oh. He is one, unapologetically himself. The way they
play totally different style of basketball in a lot of ways,
the way they defend differently than not denying everything to
keep you in front. The way he interacts with his
team holds him accountable but a little bit different, but
a great communicator. Coach K was a great motivator in
the history of our sport. Maybe in the history of sport. Ever,
(21:51):
his ability to create causes whether he did it with
the Olympic team and with his duke teams. But john
Shire has a likability to him. He's allowed these guys
and it's a different age. Everyone knows these guys now
from TikTok and social media and the accessibility that they have.
You see their personalities. They're not like put in small boxes.
So I think the social media aspect of it has
(22:13):
changed it. John Shire's approach has changed it, and these
kids are very comfortable putting themselves out and being a
little bit outside the box of you would think that
people expect them to be.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I know you're busy. Thanks as always, great to talk
to you again, Seth.
Speaker 8 (22:31):
Always honored to be on your show. You're the best.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's Seth Greenberg.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Be sure to catch the live edition of The Dan
Patrick Show weekdays at nine am Eastern six am pacifics
on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
He's the host of Gills Arena podcast, three time All
Star with the Wizards, and his show, his underdog hit
show Just sor pasted one million subscribers. Look at you,
You're making moves man. Your makeup trying to uh this
time of the year. I think back to March Madness
(23:05):
when you guys played for the National Championship and you
played against Duke. What do you remember about that moment?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
That's funny because of Richard Jefferson. I remember the Final
four against Michigan State where I was doing a lot
of gambling for steals and try to get through a
pinned down screen and Troy it was Hudson and Zach
Randolph closed that door on me and I tore a
(23:37):
soft tissue muscle in my chest. I finished the game,
but you know I was hurt going into the championship.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Game or you would have beaten Duke. Is that what
you're saying?
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Of course, Oh, I was a man on fireback.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Was that Mike Dunlevy's Duke team.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yes, that was Mike dun Leaby's breakout game, you know,
but they had a a roster also that uh Jason
Will or Jay Will Boozer. You had Duhan Young, Duhan
Shane Baddie was the best player on the team. So
(24:16):
uh they were there were there also.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Loaded Did you hate Duke?
Speaker 4 (24:22):
I did? I did because I thought, you know, even
though I was hurt, we still had a chance to
win that game. And I think there was like twenty
two missed calls in that game, which we felt we
was reffed unfairly.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Wait wait, wait, who decided there were twenty two miss calls?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
You know, you know ESPN after, you know, you know
when you watch after, you know there was a pivotal
play where Jason Gardner was dribbling and uh, he stopped
and Jay Will fell on him, which would have been
his third foul in the first and they didn't even
call him. He's just sitting there. Jay Wills fell all
on him. He's just sitting there, just bouncing the ball,
(25:04):
and they never actually called that foul.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So you think Duke getting preferential treatment.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
It felt that way, and it felt that it did
feel that way. But you know, it's the championship game.
You know, they can't call it everything.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Uh, I'm curious with nil, with your son and your daughter,
you do have the financial means that you know, but
do you still how are they taking advantage? Will they
take advantage of name, image and likeness your son and
daughter very very highly rated recruits.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Yes, you know, I told them. You know, there's nil
and then there's collective right most you know, parents are
mixing the two and they don't understand the difference. Nil
is your name in likeness, so you have to be
a popular player and personality. The collective is what everyone's
getting from the school themselves, right, so you know the
(25:59):
school all money is very different from the NIO nio.
You have to earn through your performance, your social media presence,
so you know their understanding. You know that that that situation.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Okay, but are you their agent? Are you negotiating?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
No, No, I'll talk to agents right now. You know,
my son is thinking about going with Clutch Sports, you know,
and you know, working on the NIL side of it.
You know, my daughter's still trying to figure out, you know,
what she wants to go with. I think she might
go with Aaron Goodwin for her NIL and collective deals.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, and then your son reclassified.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Yes, he went from being a junior to a senior.
So he can you know, get into college early because
the collective money will be cut off April eighth and
then there will be a cap in college.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
But do you look at Cooper Flag at eighteen being
successful as any kind of blueprint or hey, my son
can do the same thing at the same age.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
You know, you can't, you can't, you can't compare you know,
your kids to these unicorn type of kids. Well that's
where a lot of parents mess up. You know. Cooper
Flag is one of those rare, you know kids where
you know, you can't build the blueprint off of you know,
(27:31):
those type of kids, the Lebron James Cooper Flags, the
Paulo ben Cherys, the Zion william Though those are one offs. Right,
Cooper Flag will be successful. He's I mean, what can
you say about him? Right, he's the number one pick.
He will be the number one pick. And people say,
if AJ was in this draft, he will be the
number one pick. Yeah, right, I'm sorry. Just Cooper Flag
(27:53):
has it engine. You can't teach, right, you can teach
them skill, you can teach them the game, you can't
teach how hard he plays the game. And seventeen you know,
now eighteen, I'm drafting him number one every single time.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, it's tricky. Now, who's the best player who couldn't
miss that you played against or with? Like everybody thought
that guy is going to be a star, And just
for whatever reason, wasn't.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
That I played with or seen coming into the league.
We'll probably been in my draft where we had all
the high school kids. You know that Eddie Curry's the
Tyson Chaman. We knew he was just a defensive player.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
The Kwame Browns.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
How does Mike Michael Jordan take Kwame Brown?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
How does he like upside? What? Oh?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay, so you're upside?
Speaker 4 (28:45):
You know. So what you're looking at is you're looking
at the age. You're looking at the body style, and
you're looking at the raw potendual of the player. Where
what's his ceiling? What's his his floor? And you know
it's it's not the kids that are the best, it's
the organization because you're taking this kid with the idea
(29:06):
that you're gonna build something great. So if you don't
build something greater, if you don't have the infrastructure of
building you know, a player, then it's your it's your
fault because the eighteen year old doesn't know what to do.
He's coming in from high school straight into the NBA.
He doesn't know the landscape. So you have to teach him,
(29:27):
teach him that.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
But Jordan, you know, takes a chance on Kwame and
then Adam Morrison was the other end. He had been
in college, and both of these guys turned out to
be bussed. So, you know, Mike and a lot of
great players, former players have a hard time, you know,
assessing other players because their standards are so high.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
It's it's it's the standard. But it's also the the
delusion of what makes you great. Right, So someone like Jordan,
he thinks he's great or he was great because of
his fundamentals of the game. Right. He doesn't consider the
raw athleticism that he had, the big hands, the forty
(30:12):
seven inch vertical, the fast twitch book. He doesn't consider that.
So he looks at, you know, what made him the
greatest of all time, not what he came into the
environment with. You already had a Bugatti engine and then
you tweaked it for you know, every train. He's buying
Honda's and drafted Hondas thinking he could turn them into
(30:32):
bagattis like no, right, So it's it's it's a little
bit of the delusion that he came into the world
with the Bagatti.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Already we're talking to Gilbert Arena's co host of Gil's
Arena podcast. But you had Jordan Washington Wizard's version.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
No I played against that I was the person that came.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
In after he left.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Oh okay, yeah, so did you play against him as
a rookie?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
I played against them those first two years in.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Washington, okay, And how was that.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
As a you know, I played him in I played
against him in ninety nine, right when he retired at
Jordan Camp. When I played against him in the NBA
is Jordans. So you know, for the most part you're
admiring as a young fan, but you're also trying to
show him that you belong to So you know, I
dropped forty one on him.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Do you think he remembers that as well as you?
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Right? Yeah, no, yeah, he remembers it because you know,
you know, I was a Jordan Camp kid, I was
a counselor. So I was performing very well then too.
So when I got to the NBA, I used to
talk a bunch of trash of how I did him.
He said, this is the big leagues. Nothing changed.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Do you ever have a situation where like Steven A
did with Lebron James, where a reporter a broadcaster that
you have a an incident on the court.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
No, I understood media early. You know, I usually beat
them to the punch right. So if I had a
bad game, I I I brung it up first. You know,
I didn't let anyone hit me with you know, your
four for seventeen performance. I was like, I know why
you guys are here. I was four for seventeen, So
(32:22):
let's just get right to it. So, you know, already
lightened the room. But you know, this is uncharted territory.
You know, no one ever played with their kid, no
one ever had you know, this type of situation where
you can have this blended gray area conversations.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
But what if you were in the league and your
son was able to go into the NBA and you
had that wealth of power that you said, hey, I'm
going to navigate this, so we draft my son to
be able to play with me at the end of
my career.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
I would have did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Okay, listen, let's just be honest.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Every parent would have did the same thing. Across the landscape.
Most of you know America, kids that go into the
business is not ready. They're not ready to take over
the business or get into the situations they get into.
But you know, as a parent, as a father, as
a mother, that is your job to prep your kid
and get them ready for this level. So you know
(33:20):
what lebron did, every parent would have. Right. But if
you if you rewind and go back to you know,
the fifty fifth pick, who did they who was available?
That's showing you right now they should have been that
pick No. One right. So being nineteen years old, athletic
(33:41):
for a point guard, six too fast, right, strong, can shoot,
can dribble, right, that was the right pick. And you
know people have to remember that Clutch said, if you
picked him earlier, then we're trying to we're going to
go overseas. So there was teams interested before fifty fifth.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
How have you assessed Bronnie? Have you been critical?
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Yes, I'm I'm I live in reality right Wait?
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Yeah, true?
Speaker 4 (34:20):
But from the forty from the fortieth pick to the
sixtieth pick, what am I expecting from these guys? Right?
A bench filler, someone who's gonna go to the G League.
They'll probably been be out of the league by two years. Right,
Maybe they might get to the thirty year, but most
of these guys are not getting to a second contract.
(34:42):
So where Bronni is I figured, Okay, by the time
his third year comes around, he would be usable in NBA.
You know, come in, you know, last two minutes of
the game, last three minutes, you know he'd be one
of those type of players. I did not effect him
to be dominated in the G League right now. I
(35:04):
thought he had to learn how to be aggressive. The
bones of his game was already there right, fast and jump.
You can't teach that being aggressive in the shell shock
of Curry, Ja Morant, Yeah, that was gonna get That
gets everyone number one pick to the sixtith pick, right.
So I'm impressed with how fast he actually turned his
(35:25):
game around and you can see the confidence in him.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Who are the best offensive players in your career that
you faced that.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
I faced, Uh, Cody Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Alan Iverson.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
That's pretty good list.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Yeah, Kevin Durant, Lebron James, I can, I can even
I can put Tim Duncan up there, Vince Carter, right.
So I came in Dwayne Wade like Carmelo Anthony right.
So the the I came in is basically, if you
look at the top five shooting guards of all time,
(36:06):
I actually played against all of them.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Who's the best shooter of all time? Best shooter Steph Curry,
not even close, not even close. How would you do
in a shooting contest.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
If we if we had to shoot a hundred times,
I'll probably win ten, ten to fifteen of those games.
It's it's it's when you when you're talking about that elite,
the Reggie Miller's, the Birds, the Craig Hodges, the Clays,
even you know Kevin Durant Kawhi is a great shooter.
(36:46):
It's about who can empty their brain the longest. Meaning,
there's no thought, right, There's not oh did I leave
the stove on? Is anybody watching? It's just it's just
Homer Simpson. It's Homer Simpsons moment. Who can be Homer
Simpson the longest? No? Right? And I think that you know,
Curry and Clay seems like they can sustain it longer
(37:09):
than you know, everybody else I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
But it feels like there's a really wide margin, Gilbert
between the greatest shooter of all time and then whoever
is the second greatest shooter of all time?
Speaker 4 (37:21):
It's the longevity.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
But is Ray Allen like, who's the second greatest shooter
of all time?
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Probably Clay, I'm sorry to say, I really believe it's
Klay Thompson because the shots he's had to take, the valume,
the microscope of it, the sixty points with you know,
less than eleven dribbles. Right, those guys didn't do that.
I mean the shot ability was it in the era then,
(37:52):
But just to see he's doing that with two Hall
of Famers first ballot on his roster. If you remove
those guys, I mean, Jesus Christ Clay would have been
first ballot. He still might be a first battle, but
you would be saying he is the greatest shooter of
all time. It's just the ways he did it. Now,
if I'm gonna take clutch, I'm going with Reggie Miller, right,
(38:14):
Reggie Miller's clutch shooting is above you know those guys.
Ray Allen is in between of a guy who was
a I call it like a perfect perfect player shooter
where he was very athletic, he can shoot, he can
play make right. So he was he was like above
Reggie and just the player themselves. And then Steph actually
(38:38):
combined everyone into one. Someone who can shoot off the dribble,
fast break, shooting, off the screen, shooting, his ability to
just put him all in one. That's what Steph Curry is.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
How bothered are you that Richard Jefferson went thirteenth in
the draft and you went thirty first.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Oh, not gonna lie every time I see his face
on my eh, because it's it's the one thing he
can always bring up that actually gets to me, right,
you know, me being an All Star all NBA getting
paid more than him. Something about the draft where he
was he was the fourth best player on our team.
(39:19):
Like from his freshman year to his junior year, he
didn't improve in nothing, right, eleven points freshman year, eleven
points sophomore year, eleven points junior year, Like, but it
really did open up my eye to understand what the
next level is. Right, it's not about your college performance,
(39:43):
it's about your upside. And then when you step back
out of our team, he had the best upside. Right.
You know, you're talking about a six seven six eight
small forward, shooting guard, today's power forward, today's center who
can run, jump, defend, put the ball in the basket
if need be. That's that's where you're gonna go with
(40:04):
Every single time he looks.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Like he was a star player when you see him
on TV.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Yes, yes, Like he was a very very good mixture
of if you need me to dominate, I can or
I can be your second option, your third option. I
can be your bridge player. Right. So he was like
the perfect guy that if you do not know what
(40:30):
to pick, you're safe picking him because he can feel
in a lot of void.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I'm just saying watching him on ESPN, he the older
he gets, the better. He was like, he looks like
he used to be a first team All NBA guy.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
No right where he speaks and he yeah, he got
the look and he's like, you know, if he said,
you know, I used to have as you know, twenty
five you can believe it just by looking at it.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
The Senator Jefferson is who he looks like. He looks
like he could, you know, run for political office.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
Listen, we had the best personalities on that team. I mean,
Luke Walton was with us, right, So we had some
some guys that you know that really pushed a button
and it's it's no there's no mistake that we're both
in the same field.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Hey, congrats on the success of the show. Always great
to catch up with you. Thank you, Gil, thank you
appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
That's Gills Arena Podcast.
You are listening to the Dan Patrick Show on Fox Sports.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Radio John Shier the third season dukead basketball coach moving
into the Final four. You've been there as a player,
You've been there as an assistant coach. What's it like
to be there as a head coach?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Dan, Well, it's great to be with you. You know
it couldn't be more excited about this opportunity. I'll feel it,
you know, I'll feel it in person in San Antonio,
But to be honest with you, it feels surreal, you know,
like it's the promised Land. Obviously we're hungry for more,
but couldn't be more excited by this opportunity.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
You always want to be the guy who follows, the
guy who follows the legend. I'll go back to John Wooden,
and you know you didn't get that. You've got the
opportunity to coach, but you're following the legend. In Mike Ryzewski,
I don't know if you did research or talk to
people who were the ones following the legend as opposed
to following the person following the legend.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Well, you know what, Dan, I did more research on
successions then, uh, I think you can imagine you know,
especially in sport, right, but even in business.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
And I tried to find connections about you know, really
why you know others weren't as successful and what went
wrong and because in most cases it wasn't about what
went right. You know, it's it's been, it's been very difficult,
And I think the first and most important thing I
found was to be really connected with you know, the
(01:29):
former coach or the transition and for me, you know
the fact that Coach K and I are still.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
As close as could be and the succession.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Me and him were so connected about what had to
change and what had to improve.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
And what I had to do. But then obviously you're
not gonna win if you try to be somebody else.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And so I had to come to terms very quickly
with I'm not coach K, not gonna try to be him.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
I'm not gonna try to coach like him. I'm gonna
I'm gonna be myself.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
And wherever that takes us, you know, I can live
with at the end of the day, because that's the
only way I'm going to succeed.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is there a new philosophy in how to build a
team in college basketball? You guys might be the anomaly.
You got three freshmen who are going to be lottery picks.
But you're seeing a lot of these teams that a
couple of freshmen, but it's really about getting these you know,
transfer guys or guys who are going to stay for
three or four years.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Yeah, I think it has changed a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I think the biggest difference is now you have to
build your team based on year to year.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
You know, it's and look, it's.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
When I played, this is only fifteen years ago. When
I played the starting lineup in my group, we had
over one hundred starting game, over one hundred games together.
And look the team we're playing in Houston. Houston has
great experience together. But for the most part, it is
year to year. I think for me, the challenge is
trying to find some level of continuity, which I think
(02:55):
still can be done in a different way. We're still
bringing in really talented, already made players that we develop
over the course of the year and have big expectations
like the guys you you know you had mentioned as
freshman now, but I think we do it our own way,
and that's what I'm proud of. You know, I think
(03:15):
it's not going to be cookie Cutter, we need this
amount of transfers, returners, freshmen. I think it's based on
the level of readiness that the freshmen we recruit have
and then also the returners we can possibly bring back.
And I think as you look at our roster, Dan,
the combination of the Seon James, the Malik Browns, the
(03:37):
Mason Gillis, with the Tyrees, Proctor and Caleb Foster, well
that helps the freshmen having some level of experience with them.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
How would you do against Proctor in a shooting contest?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I would beat them, beat me in the game, but
I'm gonna beat any of our guys still, I think, Dan.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
How do you coach a freshman as opposed to a
junior senior.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I just think for these guys there's a level of
that they need to always hear the truth.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
You have to hit them right between the eyes. But
also at the.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Same time, you have to give them a really good
confidence because they're going through something they've never experienced before.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
You know, even I'm like, I'm so impressed with the
maturity these guys have.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Playing in my first NCAA tournament game and I remember
how I felt, and these guys haven't acted like it's.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
How did you feel.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I felt, you know, jittery, you know, I felt, you know, pressure.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
We are six seed playing Vcus an eleven seed, and
you just I think there's a tendency then to when
you're the higher seed, to play not to lose instead
of playing to win. And so I've tried to just
ingrain in them from day one in the preseason of
being the hunters, you know, not the hunted, and just
going after this thing.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
And they've embraced that and they've done that.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
But I think with the freshmen, just to continue to
give them confidence at the same time of trying to
prepare them for things that they hadn't seen before.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
And that's what I've tried to do.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
He's Duke's head coach John Shier joining us on the program.
Take me back to the Butler National title game when
you want Gordon Hayward wasn't your guy? Was he you were?
Speaker 5 (05:19):
He wasn't my guy in terms of me guarding him?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, yeah, I was ahead on the play that he
got the left. So I think people always think about
last half court shot, which is right.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
There, the one before that he had.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
We were under out of bounds, we were up by
one and he had an isolation play at the top
of the key and he ended up shooting about like
a fifteen footer from the baseline.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I thought it was going in, Dan, I was right
under the basket.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
It just probably if it's an inch shorter or it
goes in, it goes long. So that shot, to me,
was the one that scared me. I was already thinking
about the how we were gonna win with the timeout
or what we were going to do.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
But the half court shot was.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Something I'll never forget, and I just I felt to
hiss off with the last second. I was ahead on
the play, but but thank god he missed it.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
If he hit that shot, he becomes Latner.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, you know what, And probably I don't know if
I'm the head coach to Duke.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
I don't know if I think the whole I think my.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Whole life is.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I think there's a lot of things that could be
different from from from that shot.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But do you explain to your kids. And I don't
know if you feel this, but the Latner years, even
JJ Reddick, people hated Duke. Yeah, it doesn't feel that way.
This is this is a team that people may root for.
Maybe not root against, but they're not, you know, they're
they're like, hey, Cooper Flag looks great. I mean, you
(06:47):
got it seems like a fun team. They play, you know,
great offense and defense. Are you guys embraceable?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
I share, hope so.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
And look, it's funny because I think we are always
in brain. But like you said, I think it's a.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Different feeling, and I can't explain why that is.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
I hope it's the fact that you have a group
of really talented players that really embrace playing the right way.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
It's led to some beautiful offense and they're tough, you know,
like they're not afraid of anything. So I think that
combination maybe has been received well. But again not JJ Reddick.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Was the same.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
I want. I don't know what it is. I don't
know what it is.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Have you had the conversation with Cooper Flag about coming back?
Speaker 5 (07:35):
No, okay?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Just is there going to be a conversation?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
No?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Although I can dream about that, yes you can, I
just you know, I think that's all it is.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
In this case.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
I think it's a dream.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
And uh, I think he's got to take the next
dream in his life and be the topic in the
NBA Draft and start his professional career.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Before I let you go, remember two to Steve Nash
and he said during his career with Phoenix, coaches told
him he was too unselfish. There are times where I
see Cooper flag maybe too unselfish. The Phoenix Suns had
to tell Steve Nash to shoot more. Is Cooper Flagg
sort of in that it seems like he's really really
(08:19):
engaged to get everybody involved. And maybe I'm not going
to say the detriment you're hit the final four, but
are there times when you want him to be a
little more selfish.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think you hit the nail on the head with him, Dan,
because he's part of is what makes him so special
is him bringing along as teammates and his feel for
his passing. It is an incredible weapon for our team.
But also he can want to defer at times to
get them going and wor at our best. He's at
(08:48):
our best when he's in complete attack mode. Teammates will
get shots from that. But that's something I have to
It's probably the biggest thing we have to get on
him about and just making sure he's not deferring and
continually just looking to dominate which he can.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Good luck in the final four. John, great to connect
with you again. Thank you, thanks for having me. Appreciate
you and so John Shire.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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Speaker 6 (09:23):
Hey, Steve Covino and I'm Rich David and together we're
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Speaker 2 (10:20):
Seth Greenberg of the Mothership. What a busy guy. He
was the two time ACC Coach of the Year at
Virginia Tech. Where are those awards.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
In my office?
Speaker 8 (10:31):
Behind behind my desk somewhere?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Okay, do you proudly display those and like, hey, come
on into my office. Look what I got. Like if
I go into Coach K's office, you know I get
to see national championship trophies.
Speaker 8 (10:44):
Well, I mean, I'm not coach K, but I do
have twos you see coaching the Year, and what I
do is a FaceTime from my office. I showed them
prominently along with the wins against Duke in Carolina.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
What was your record against Duke?
Speaker 8 (10:59):
Was six?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
And what were you against Dean Smith?
Speaker 8 (11:04):
I mean to coach against Stean, I'm not that old.
I coached against Roy. I think I had three wins
against Roy one of them was actually when they were
number one in the country at Kansas. It was weird.
I my teams we had four wins against number ones
and they were all on the road, which is kind
of bizarre.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Explain to me the role that coaching plays now as
opposed to maybe earlier in the tournament or during the
regular season.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
You know, everyone's gonna say this experience have a factor
comes in Final four. People have been through it, understand it.
Had an experience of dealing with all the requests and
media and kind of finding a balancing point for the preparation.
I think coaching has an impact every time of the year.
What are you gonna get, what are you gonna take away?
You know you're not gonna reinvent yourself in the n
(11:50):
C andm by tournament. How you get your guys to
understand what's the essence of what you have to do
to win, and then making sure you're managing the hardest
thing on four As an assistant coach at eighty four
with coachalent Is managing all the obligations and keeping the
guys focused, It's great. It's unique. You got you know,
police sports. You know you're practicing in front of twenty
(12:12):
five thousand people, you've got eight thousand people that want tickets.
Managing all that so you can stay focused on what's
most important the game and the very best figure out
all right, how do we get laser focused on the
things that are most important? And now it's even harder
with social media, with agents, with workout gurus, with all
the other obligations uh that players are asked. And then
(12:34):
also like some of these guys might end up transferred
at the end of the front of four.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I was talking to John Shier last hour about that
that the blueprint it feels like has changed where you
have the blue bloods are taking away the mid majors,
good players to prevent the you know, the mid majors
from making these Cinderella runs. They're already it's kind of
circumventing the system there a little bit. Instead of waiting
(12:59):
for this, they ca them in and grab those players.
And we're seeing less freshmen impact the tournament other than duke.
And it feels like now it's you know, maybe sophomores,
juniors and seniors. Is this is this what we should
be expecting in years to come, one.
Speaker 8 (13:15):
Hundred percent this is the future one hundred percent. Look
how old the Duke Look how old uh the Auburn
team is. You're starting on it. There's a twenty five
year old, a twenty three year old, a twenty four
year old. Uh, you can got one freshman Auburn, Todd Petterford,
You've got three freshmen. Basically at Duke, you don't have
another freshman. You've got every single team. Look look at
Florida's team. They got four MiG major transfers that are
(13:38):
having a huge impact on their team. So this is
the future, you know, with an iol with the transfer portal,
and that's why, in a lot of ways, this is
the way it's going to be. But we've got to
get guidelines and we just have to and we've got
to have contracts, and we've got to have incentives. And
the other thing we've got to do is we've got
to eventually put education back into this thing. Also, Like
(13:59):
you've got guys dreads for three or four times, it's
going to impact graduation. We've got to have incentives for
academic progress, retention, graduation, community service along with along with
obviously team success and then maybe some individual success. We've
got to base salaries we've got to find a way
to get this thing back. And I'm all for the
(14:21):
players making money, that's not they but we've got to
have some like maybe one. College basketball is a professional
sport right now, That's what it is. It's a professional sport.
Name a professional sport that has year to year free agency.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I don't think any well, the owners might allow it
to happen that because they, yes, they don't want it
to end.
Speaker 8 (14:43):
And people say, well, coaches can go anytime they want.
I agree, coaches go any time they want. And you
see a lot of coaches go from mid major to
high major. Sey Kevin Willard go from Maryland to Villanova.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Just a week.
Speaker 8 (14:53):
And that's true. And what do coaches have in their contracts?
They have to they have two way security. They've got
guaranteed if they get fired. But they also have buyouts.
And I actually think the part of the contracts with
the players needs to be a buyout. I don't care
who pays it. Player can pay it. The school that's
trying to get the kid can pay it. But if
we have buyouts and it's two ways and we have
(15:14):
two year contracts, we can get some continuity in the game.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
All four number one seeds reach the final four second
time that that happened two thousand and eight, the only
other time good thing for the tournament or a bad thing.
Speaker 8 (15:28):
This year a very good thing because those four teams
have separated themselves all season. Low all these four teams
that I think I'm not mistaking the bid number one
in the country. This is the future riving about all
four number ones. But the one number ones beat the
number twos. You saw what happened to Tennessee. You saw
what happened in Michigan State.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 8 (15:45):
I think it's good on good. You can see the
best players playing against each other. You can see the
best teams who've earned it with their body of work
throughout the season playing against each other. You're not just
going to see a sindal or Ella who gets out.
We don't have that many Cinderellas. We have them in
the first round of second round. There are very few
vcus and Loyola's. That doesn't happen very often. And I
look at upsets. You if you have a one in
(16:07):
the three and they're major conferences and they teams have
beaten other high level teams, it's no big thing. But
this year and the last time most of the four
number ones, it was in San Antonio. Also this year,
these four teams have separated themselves throughout the season. Their
body of work said that, you know, let's see good
on good. Let's see great defense in Houston and great
(16:29):
offense and defense in Duke. Let's see Jane I Broome
having as Willis Reed type moment coming out of the
locker room, you know, and making that and making that
three you know against you know, a Florida team with
Walter Clayton absolutely just took over two games. At the
end of the game. I actually think it's we have
a great final four.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Seth Greenberg, ESPN College basketball analysts. Let me go back
to Walter Clayton junior. I am a big proponent of
not letting your best player beat me, and for the
life of me, couldn't understand this. You know, that's the
one guy, right, everybody in the building knows that's the
one guy. Why am I not getting two people at him?
(17:11):
Why not am I? And I know he's quick, he's
got a quick release. All of that. I got to
take the ball out of his hands. Seth, I don't
understand this from a coaching perspective. Tell me what I'm
missing here?
Speaker 8 (17:25):
Look good, Look that was my philosophy. Every time I
want a big game, we took the oundead's best player out.
I mean it was just an automatic great Mcflasland did
that for a thirty six minutes. They blitzed him on
every ball street they got the ball out of his hands. Uh,
and they did an incredible job on him. They always
committed two to the ball and forced to kick it out.
Now one time, late game, look that upset. It takes
(17:49):
two to tag them. So like Texas Tech help him
by missing the free throws. Text helped him by taking
some quick shots. And then you know Thomas how happened.
He makes those first two three which were huge, one
of them on a pass off a double team where
they got the ball of Clayton's hands and he gave
it up early and help knocked down a big three
late in the game. I have one hundred percent agree
(18:11):
with you. Late in the game, I thought Clayton did
a really good job of relocating quickly before they could
sit send a second guy at him. The one the
last one he made where he was inside the three
point line about the foul line, and he turned and
dribbled out and got himself squared up. I asked, jday
will be a day? How hard I couldn't. I can't
(18:32):
relate to it?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
How hard is that to do?
Speaker 8 (18:35):
And like it's really hard? So like I give the
guy credit for making those plays. But that's what Grant
mccasla wanted to do. But he, like he said, he
thought it seemed got a little tired and lost its focus.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
And and you knows your focus on that guy and
he send you home.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, And you're right about the free throws because if
they make the free throws, then there there's no heroics there.
How would you describe Cooper Flag's game to somebody who
hadn't seen him play?
Speaker 8 (19:05):
The most versatile player I've seen, And I compare him
to Grant Hill, Scottie Pippen very much, those two guys.
I think in Jason Tatum, he's got kind of a
mixture of all three those guys. I mean, he innitiate
your offense kind of like they do with Tatum and
Scottie Pippin Dady, He's cores at all three levels. People
(19:28):
don't really appreciate his seven two wingspan he's got great
defensive range and he's so damn unselfish, like he's a
terrific passer. I mean his feel for the game. For
he's eighteen years old. He's eighteen years old, and he
just plays like total like I got this, We're in
(19:51):
good shape. Never gets to it now his mom has
lost her mind, but he is perfectly fine. Like that.
Dude's playing in the biggest games and in the VIMI
it's knocking out big shots. And like his mom, he
made a couple of turnovers early in the game and
the first thing he hears from his mouth and the
three turnables, you got to be better with the ball.
I mean, it is a high standard. It is a
(20:11):
high standard in the Flat family.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
I understand that.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
But he's a unique and you know, people say unicorn.
I don't know. I've never met a unicorn, so I
don't know what corn is. But the dude is like really,
he's not only special, but his demeanor is special and
yet being fiercely competitive.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
You coaching against Duke when people hated Duke. Yeah, but
this team is embraced. I said to coach Schier. I said,
people don't dislike Duke like they're kind of like, yeah,
you might not root for him, but it doesn't feel
like you're rooting against them.
Speaker 8 (20:49):
Yeah. I mean a little bit I'd do with Mike
and Eve Lumpire and had to do it.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
You know, just the.
Speaker 8 (20:55):
Amount of success he had, the consistency and success they
Duke became Yankees. You loved him, you hated him, you know,
it's just just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Uh So.
Speaker 8 (21:07):
I mean Coach K and what he was able to
build and a consistency that he had. People got tired
of him, and you know, either you liked him or
you didn't like it John Shire, and I'm glad you
had him all to me. He's incredible. He is so
comfortable in his own skin. He's not Coach K two
point zero or one point zho. He's John Shire two
(21:28):
point oh. He is one, unapologetically himself. The way they
play totally different style of basketball in a lot of ways,
the way they defend differently than not denying everything to
keep you in front. The way he interacts with his
team holds him accountable but a little bit different, but
a great communicator. Coach K was a great motivator in
the history of our sport. Maybe in the history of sport. Ever,
(21:51):
his ability to create causes whether he did it with
the Olympic team and with his duke teams. But john
Shire has a likability to him. He's allowed these guys
and it's a different age. Everyone knows these guys now
from TikTok and social media and the accessibility that they have.
You see their personalities. They're not like put in small boxes.
So I think the social media aspect of it has
(22:13):
changed it. John Shire's approach has changed it, and these
kids are very comfortable putting themselves out and being a
little bit outside the box of you would think that
people expect them to be.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I know you're busy. Thanks as always, great to talk
to you again, Seth.
Speaker 8 (22:31):
Always honored to be on your show. You're the best.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's Seth Greenberg.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Be sure to catch the live edition of The Dan
Patrick Show weekdays at nine am Eastern six am pacifics
on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
He's the host of Gills Arena podcast, three time All
Star with the Wizards, and his show, his underdog hit
show Just sor pasted one million subscribers. Look at you,
You're making moves man. Your makeup trying to uh this
time of the year. I think back to March Madness
(23:05):
when you guys played for the National Championship and you
played against Duke. What do you remember about that moment?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
That's funny because of Richard Jefferson. I remember the Final
four against Michigan State where I was doing a lot
of gambling for steals and try to get through a
pinned down screen and Troy it was Hudson and Zach
Randolph closed that door on me and I tore a
(23:37):
soft tissue muscle in my chest. I finished the game,
but you know I was hurt going into the championship.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Game or you would have beaten Duke. Is that what
you're saying?
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Of course, Oh, I was a man on fireback.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Was that Mike Dunlevy's Duke team.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yes, that was Mike dun Leaby's breakout game, you know,
but they had a a roster also that uh Jason
Will or Jay Will Boozer. You had Duhan Young, Duhan
Shane Baddie was the best player on the team. So
(24:16):
uh they were there were there also.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Loaded Did you hate Duke?
Speaker 4 (24:22):
I did? I did because I thought, you know, even
though I was hurt, we still had a chance to
win that game. And I think there was like twenty
two missed calls in that game, which we felt we
was reffed unfairly.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Wait wait, wait, who decided there were twenty two miss calls?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
You know, you know ESPN after, you know, you know
when you watch after, you know there was a pivotal
play where Jason Gardner was dribbling and uh, he stopped
and Jay Will fell on him, which would have been
his third foul in the first and they didn't even
call him. He's just sitting there. Jay Wills fell all
on him. He's just sitting there, just bouncing the ball,
(25:04):
and they never actually called that foul.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So you think Duke getting preferential treatment.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
It felt that way, and it felt that it did
feel that way. But you know, it's the championship game.
You know, they can't call it everything.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Uh, I'm curious with nil, with your son and your daughter,
you do have the financial means that you know, but
do you still how are they taking advantage? Will they
take advantage of name, image and likeness your son and
daughter very very highly rated recruits.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Yes, you know, I told them. You know, there's nil
and then there's collective right most you know, parents are
mixing the two and they don't understand the difference. Nil
is your name in likeness, so you have to be
a popular player and personality. The collective is what everyone's
getting from the school themselves, right, so you know the
(25:59):
school all money is very different from the NIO nio.
You have to earn through your performance, your social media presence,
so you know their understanding. You know that that that situation.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Okay, but are you their agent? Are you negotiating?
Speaker 4 (26:18):
No, No, I'll talk to agents right now. You know,
my son is thinking about going with Clutch Sports, you know,
and you know, working on the NIL side of it.
You know, my daughter's still trying to figure out, you know,
what she wants to go with. I think she might
go with Aaron Goodwin for her NIL and collective deals.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, and then your son reclassified.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
Yes, he went from being a junior to a senior.
So he can you know, get into college early because
the collective money will be cut off April eighth and
then there will be a cap in college.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
But do you look at Cooper Flag at eighteen being
successful as any kind of blueprint or hey, my son
can do the same thing at the same age.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
You know, you can't, you can't, you can't compare you know,
your kids to these unicorn type of kids. Well that's
where a lot of parents mess up. You know. Cooper
Flag is one of those rare, you know kids where
you know, you can't build the blueprint off of you know,
(27:31):
those type of kids, the Lebron James Cooper Flags, the
Paulo ben Cherys, the Zion william Though those are one offs. Right,
Cooper Flag will be successful. He's I mean, what can
you say about him? Right, he's the number one pick.
He will be the number one pick. And people say,
if AJ was in this draft, he will be the
number one pick. Yeah, right, I'm sorry. Just Cooper Flag
(27:53):
has it engine. You can't teach, right, you can teach
them skill, you can teach them the game, you can't
teach how hard he plays the game. And seventeen you know,
now eighteen, I'm drafting him number one every single time.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, it's tricky. Now, who's the best player who couldn't
miss that you played against or with? Like everybody thought
that guy is going to be a star, And just
for whatever reason, wasn't.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
That I played with or seen coming into the league.
We'll probably been in my draft where we had all
the high school kids. You know that Eddie Curry's the
Tyson Chaman. We knew he was just a defensive player.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
The Kwame Browns.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
How does Mike Michael Jordan take Kwame Brown?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
How does he like upside? What? Oh?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay, so you're upside?
Speaker 4 (28:45):
You know. So what you're looking at is you're looking
at the age. You're looking at the body style, and
you're looking at the raw potendual of the player. Where
what's his ceiling? What's his his floor? And you know
it's it's not the kids that are the best, it's
the organization because you're taking this kid with the idea
(29:06):
that you're gonna build something great. So if you don't
build something greater, if you don't have the infrastructure of
building you know, a player, then it's your it's your
fault because the eighteen year old doesn't know what to do.
He's coming in from high school straight into the NBA.
He doesn't know the landscape. So you have to teach him,
(29:27):
teach him that.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
But Jordan, you know, takes a chance on Kwame and
then Adam Morrison was the other end. He had been
in college, and both of these guys turned out to
be bussed. So, you know, Mike and a lot of
great players, former players have a hard time, you know,
assessing other players because their standards are so high.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
It's it's it's the standard. But it's also the the
delusion of what makes you great. Right, So someone like Jordan,
he thinks he's great or he was great because of
his fundamentals of the game. Right. He doesn't consider the
raw athleticism that he had, the big hands, the forty
(30:12):
seven inch vertical, the fast twitch book. He doesn't consider that.
So he looks at, you know, what made him the
greatest of all time, not what he came into the
environment with. You already had a Bugatti engine and then
you tweaked it for you know, every train. He's buying
Honda's and drafted Hondas thinking he could turn them into
(30:32):
bagattis like no, right, So it's it's it's a little
bit of the delusion that he came into the world
with the Bagatti.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Already we're talking to Gilbert Arena's co host of Gil's
Arena podcast. But you had Jordan Washington Wizard's version.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
No I played against that I was the person that came.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
In after he left.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Oh okay, yeah, so did you play against him as
a rookie?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
I played against them those first two years in.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Washington, okay, And how was that.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
As a you know, I played him in I played
against him in ninety nine, right when he retired at
Jordan Camp. When I played against him in the NBA
is Jordans. So you know, for the most part you're
admiring as a young fan, but you're also trying to
show him that you belong to So you know, I
dropped forty one on him.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Do you think he remembers that as well as you?
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Right? Yeah, no, yeah, he remembers it because you know,
you know, I was a Jordan Camp kid, I was
a counselor. So I was performing very well then too.
So when I got to the NBA, I used to
talk a bunch of trash of how I did him.
He said, this is the big leagues. Nothing changed.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Do you ever have a situation where like Steven A
did with Lebron James, where a reporter a broadcaster that
you have a an incident on the court.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
No, I understood media early. You know, I usually beat
them to the punch right. So if I had a
bad game, I I I brung it up first. You know,
I didn't let anyone hit me with you know, your
four for seventeen performance. I was like, I know why
you guys are here. I was four for seventeen, So
(32:22):
let's just get right to it. So, you know, already
lightened the room. But you know, this is uncharted territory.
You know, no one ever played with their kid, no
one ever had you know, this type of situation where
you can have this blended gray area conversations.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
But what if you were in the league and your
son was able to go into the NBA and you
had that wealth of power that you said, hey, I'm
going to navigate this, so we draft my son to
be able to play with me at the end of
my career.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
I would have did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Okay, listen, let's just be honest.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Every parent would have did the same thing. Across the landscape.
Most of you know America, kids that go into the
business is not ready. They're not ready to take over
the business or get into the situations they get into.
But you know, as a parent, as a father, as
a mother, that is your job to prep your kid
and get them ready for this level. So you know
(33:20):
what lebron did, every parent would have. Right. But if
you if you rewind and go back to you know,
the fifty fifth pick, who did they who was available?
That's showing you right now they should have been that
pick No. One right. So being nineteen years old, athletic
(33:41):
for a point guard, six too fast, right, strong, can shoot,
can dribble, right, that was the right pick. And you
know people have to remember that Clutch said, if you
picked him earlier, then we're trying to we're going to
go overseas. So there was teams interested before fifty fifth.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
How have you assessed Bronnie? Have you been critical?
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Yes, I'm I'm I live in reality right Wait?
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Yeah, true?
Speaker 4 (34:20):
But from the forty from the fortieth pick to the
sixtieth pick, what am I expecting from these guys? Right?
A bench filler, someone who's gonna go to the G League.
They'll probably been be out of the league by two years. Right,
Maybe they might get to the thirty year, but most
of these guys are not getting to a second contract.
(34:42):
So where Bronni is I figured, Okay, by the time
his third year comes around, he would be usable in NBA.
You know, come in, you know, last two minutes of
the game, last three minutes, you know he'd be one
of those type of players. I did not effect him
to be dominated in the G League right now. I
(35:04):
thought he had to learn how to be aggressive. The
bones of his game was already there right, fast and jump.
You can't teach that being aggressive in the shell shock
of Curry, Ja Morant, Yeah, that was gonna get That
gets everyone number one pick to the sixtith pick, right.
So I'm impressed with how fast he actually turned his
(35:25):
game around and you can see the confidence in him.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Who are the best offensive players in your career that
you faced that.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
I faced, Uh, Cody Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Alan Iverson.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
That's pretty good list.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Yeah, Kevin Durant, Lebron James, I can, I can even
I can put Tim Duncan up there, Vince Carter, right.
So I came in Dwayne Wade like Carmelo Anthony right.
So the the I came in is basically, if you
look at the top five shooting guards of all time,
(36:06):
I actually played against all of them.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Who's the best shooter of all time? Best shooter Steph Curry,
not even close, not even close. How would you do
in a shooting contest.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
If we if we had to shoot a hundred times,
I'll probably win ten, ten to fifteen of those games.
It's it's it's when you when you're talking about that elite,
the Reggie Miller's, the Birds, the Craig Hodges, the Clays,
even you know Kevin Durant Kawhi is a great shooter.
(36:46):
It's about who can empty their brain the longest. Meaning,
there's no thought, right, There's not oh did I leave
the stove on? Is anybody watching? It's just it's just
Homer Simpson. It's Homer Simpsons moment. Who can be Homer
Simpson the longest? No? Right? And I think that you know,
Curry and Clay seems like they can sustain it longer
(37:09):
than you know, everybody else I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
But it feels like there's a really wide margin, Gilbert
between the greatest shooter of all time and then whoever
is the second greatest shooter of all time?
Speaker 4 (37:21):
It's the longevity.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
But is Ray Allen like, who's the second greatest shooter
of all time?
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Probably Clay, I'm sorry to say, I really believe it's
Klay Thompson because the shots he's had to take, the valume,
the microscope of it, the sixty points with you know,
less than eleven dribbles. Right, those guys didn't do that.
I mean the shot ability was it in the era then,
(37:52):
But just to see he's doing that with two Hall
of Famers first ballot on his roster. If you remove
those guys, I mean, Jesus Christ Clay would have been
first ballot. He still might be a first battle, but
you would be saying he is the greatest shooter of
all time. It's just the ways he did it. Now,
if I'm gonna take clutch, I'm going with Reggie Miller, right,
(38:14):
Reggie Miller's clutch shooting is above you know those guys.
Ray Allen is in between of a guy who was
a I call it like a perfect perfect player shooter
where he was very athletic, he can shoot, he can
play make right. So he was he was like above
Reggie and just the player themselves. And then Steph actually
(38:38):
combined everyone into one. Someone who can shoot off the dribble,
fast break, shooting, off the screen, shooting, his ability to
just put him all in one. That's what Steph Curry is.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
How bothered are you that Richard Jefferson went thirteenth in
the draft and you went thirty first.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Oh, not gonna lie every time I see his face
on my eh, because it's it's the one thing he
can always bring up that actually gets to me, right,
you know, me being an All Star all NBA getting
paid more than him. Something about the draft where he
was he was the fourth best player on our team.
(39:19):
Like from his freshman year to his junior year, he
didn't improve in nothing, right, eleven points freshman year, eleven
points sophomore year, eleven points junior year, Like, but it
really did open up my eye to understand what the
next level is. Right, it's not about your college performance,
(39:43):
it's about your upside. And then when you step back
out of our team, he had the best upside. Right.
You know, you're talking about a six seven six eight
small forward, shooting guard, today's power forward, today's center who
can run, jump, defend, put the ball in the basket
if need be. That's that's where you're gonna go with
(40:04):
Every single time he looks.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Like he was a star player when you see him
on TV.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Yes, yes, Like he was a very very good mixture
of if you need me to dominate, I can or
I can be your second option, your third option. I
can be your bridge player. Right. So he was like
the perfect guy that if you do not know what
(40:30):
to pick, you're safe picking him because he can feel
in a lot of void.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I'm just saying watching him on ESPN, he the older
he gets, the better. He was like, he looks like
he used to be a first team All NBA guy.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
No right where he speaks and he yeah, he got
the look and he's like, you know, if he said,
you know, I used to have as you know, twenty
five you can believe it just by looking at it.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
The Senator Jefferson is who he looks like. He looks
like he could, you know, run for political office.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
Listen, we had the best personalities on that team. I mean,
Luke Walton was with us, right, So we had some
some guys that you know that really pushed a button
and it's it's no there's no mistake that we're both
in the same field.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Hey, congrats on the success of the show. Always great
to catch up with you. Thank you, Gil, thank you
appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
That's Gills Arena Podcast.
Hosts And Creators
Todd "Fritzy" Fritz
Dan Patrick
Patrick "Seton" O'Connor
Paul Pabst
Marvin Prince
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