Building Better Ballplayers with Wes Helms from CamWood Bats

Doug sits down with former MLB pro and CamWood Bats founder Wes Helms to talk about how he's reshaping player development.

They dive into what today’s coaches are getting wrong, how analytics can sometimes miss the mark, and the importance of passing down pro-level insight. Plus, stories from the league, favorite teammates, and their sons’ journeys through the world of college baseball.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi everybody, Welcome back. I'm your host, Douglan Kavige and
this is the Dugout Podcast this week. A couple of things.
We shouldn't have any interruptions. My dogs are at the SPA,
so that's a good thing. It's a good start and
it'll yappy wiener dogs when I introduce my guest this week,
twelve year Major League veteran Braves Brewers Marlins Phillies was

(00:31):
a really good right handed hitter, could play third, could
play first. I from a far mad respect for this guy.
When it's funny when you see guys play the right
way and you don't get a chance to cross path
them too much. You just become a fan and you
follow how they what they do and how they do it.

(00:51):
We're very close to being teammates with the Marlins at
the end of our career. Was looking forward to that,
but I got whacked before that happened. He's managed, he's
coached in Pro baw A Triple A. He is now
the CEO of Camwood. Bats like to welcome Wes Helms.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thanks, Doug. I appreciate that. Thank you for the compliments as.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Well, Goad Buddy. For me, I'm a fan of how
you do it and what you do on social media,
watching you your clips that you put on on social
media of your working with young men and young women,
the softball gig, the baseball gig. I know, with my
son Steel, I show him a ton of stuff. A

(01:29):
matter of fact, I sent him three or more things
last night. I think we all know when you're coaching
your own kid, it's a little difficult. I'll give you
a little antidote. My son said this when he was
young and I was still playing. He said, I try
to give him some advice. And he said, Dad, you're
a player, not a coach. And I was like, thank
you for your honesty. But that's just kind of how

(01:50):
the way it works. But I just kind of want
to talk about how you got into that and what
what made you want to start to even work with
Camwood Bats and start and start becoming, you know, a
guy who really does what they're doing and and and
you know, passing their information on to the younger generation.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
I mean, you know with cam with bats, how it
kind of evolved. And I was the first major league
player to actually use the cam Win Hens a speed trainer,
which is what built the company and until three years ago,
you know, that's all it was was the hands of
speed and the you know, one hand trainer and everything,
and then in our programs the development side. Then we
got into game bats. But long story short, I've known

(02:30):
the owner forever, Frank Gregor, the original founder of cam Wood.
Now he's kind of stepped to the side a little
bit and Trey Sykes is the owner now. Frank Train
trains Trade in high school and in college. And Frank
was a great hitting coach and he trained Trade. So
when Frank got older, he you know, knew he was
going to step away and he needed someone to run

(02:51):
the company, and he handed it over to Trey. He
just really liked him. Trey had a background in advertising
and social media and marketing, and you know, he knew
he could take it from the level which you did.
Then Trey reached out to me because I had known
Trade through Frank, and said, hey, you know, we're going
to launch game bats and I want you to run
the company and be the CEO overall, but I really

(03:13):
need you to get the pro side involved with the
game bats. And I said, okay. So I started off.
Once we launched, I went around you know, all the
major league organizations in spring training, and I went to
the Fall League. I went you know, Arizona, Florida, back
and forth and just built the relationships with the equipment
managers and got into the cage with the players. I

(03:33):
already had that trust factor because you know, twelve years
of Big League is they trusted what I was putting
my name on. So that helped get it started. And
then it just took off. And the game bats now
are kind of getting to a point where it's going
to overtake the training bat side of the company. So
then Trey and I had an idea like, hey, since
we're all about development, let's create basically a development side

(03:57):
of the company. And it's called kim with Elite and
that's all training based. We have myself Matt Greer, which
you know Matt Greer does our pitching. We have Chris
Kievatt does the strength condition and he's been involved with
under Armer. He's the head strength conditioning coordinator over at
Kennessall State. And we have three professional softball players, Anna

(04:19):
Marie Brunei, Beta Clengland and Sam Shaw on the softball side.
And basically we wanted just to pour knowledge into young
kids at any level. I mean this could be for
you know, even pro athletes that wanted to reach out
to me about hitting or Matt about pitching and just
pick our brains. But it was about, let's pour our
knowledge into these kids. Because we played at the highest level.

(04:41):
We know what it takes to win with the best
pitcher on the mound or you know, the best hitter
to play, what to do in the field, you know
how to be ready, how you your action times, everything
that comes in the play at the at the highest level.
So that being said, that's when I really got involved
into just pouring end of these kids either being in

(05:02):
the infield, in the cage, working with them, and that's
what you see on social media. That's just clips of
us doing our job with the kids and developing them
and a lot of and it's kind of evolved into
a big thing now, like people reach out. I had
a girl flying from North Carolina to Birmingham and hit
with me all weekend. We've probably spent nine hours together

(05:23):
in two days. And it's a lot of kids that
just either want to go play in college or they
are already committed and then either clean some stuff up
for the next level, or they're in college and they've
got a chance to get drafted, and it's become fun. Man,
It's become a lot of fun getting to be in
the cage with all these softball and baseball players and

(05:44):
just giving them the knowledge of what works in the game.
And that's the biggest thing I preach to kids is
I don't I'm not working with you to be the
best cage hitter you can be. I'm going to make
you better in the game. And to me, that's what
it's all about. And that's why there's no cookie cutter
way to do things that every kid's different. I might

(06:04):
do something with this kid that I wouldn't do with
this kid, but I will. I want the kid to
be the best they can be in the game. And
you know, you know yourself where we play. That's what
it's all about. The games what matters. It don't matter
what you do in practice. It's all about the game. Right.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
So it's funny, are There's so many things that I
just was jotting down that you went through. You talked
about twelve years and credibility and like that's like in
social media world, that means nothing, right, There's a lot
of people. There's always the guy that has twelve followers
who wants to argue with you over and you only
have so many characters who do it. It's like, why
I'm not wasting my time? There's no one way to
do things. It's it's funny. I go back, I think

(06:42):
before you even got the cam which I bought the
hand and speed trainer, both two hands and one hand
for my high school team, my son's high school team,
and we still use it. You got back on it
the other day, So it's it's funny to watch how
much it's evolved in like the stuff on there. I mean,
obviously for me, I look at almost everything on the internet.

(07:03):
I look at it. I pay attention to it. I
like it, dislike it, whatever. But like watching and going
through the website and going through man, there's a lot
of really good stuff in there. And you know, to me,
it's yes, there's a you can teach hitting without having
to play in the big leagues one hundred percent. But

(07:23):
the stuff that guys like yourself give these kids is
real life, real situation information, and to me, that's priceless.
And that was my fight in pro ball. It was like,
I know what that sheet of paper tells me that
this guy's doing he's got a negative one point seven
launch angle this week, or the ball flight or whatever
it was. I'm like, I understand that. I don't need

(07:46):
that sheet of paper to show me that, Like he's
he has trouble with breaking balls. Well, it's because he's
cheating to a fastball. That's what's making him vulnerable. And
we need to like, you need to fix it. He
needs to see more breaking balls this week. And I'm like, no,
he doesn't. We need to be more efficient to the
fastball and the break and ball will take care of itself.
Just little things like that. So it's it's a it's
a constant fight, and I love like it's it's simple

(08:09):
and it's repeatable. And that's another thing that makes it,
that makes it for me. Watching what you do is
just like, hey, there's one you can be the greatest
hitter of all time. If you can't explain to somebody
your your information needs nothing. You could be Yoda and
it ain't gonna matter if you don't understand it. So
I and my son and I get it coming from
me all the time. He doesn't want to hear it,

(08:30):
but We've like, there's a lot of things that I
haven't tried with him that I've tried because of watching
stuff that you've done. And I'd be like, hey, what
do you think of this? And he's liked some of it,
a lot of it and tried to implement it. So
and I'm just speaking out loud as a dad, not
as a as a coach or a player, Like I
suggest everybody get on this thing and check this thing

(08:51):
out because there's so many false there's so many false
narratives on the internet right now, and this is for real,
and this is something that I think more and more
and more and more kids need to see. And the
fact that you have girls flying in for the weekend
is phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
You said two words that I literally tell every person
I work with, and that simplify things and being repeatable.
Less is more against the elite pitcher. And you know that,
like so many young hitters want to do more when
they face the better arm, they want to do more.

(09:25):
When a guy throws ninety two or ninety three in
high school, you actually need to do the less. All
you got to do is get the barrel to the
ball and be on time and he's supplying the power
and being repeatable. Matt Greener and I talk about this
all the time. Pitching and hitting go hand in hand.
A great pitcher repeats their delivery every single time. A

(09:46):
great hitter repeats their move every single time. The only
thing that changes is the pitch and the location of
where you may contact. But your moves need to be
consistent every single time. And that's what I stress to
these young hitters or infielders or Matt stretches to the pitchers.
It's all about consistency. The more consistent you are, the

(10:08):
better chance you have to pick that you have to
be more successful. But if you're like a roller coaster
all the time and you're inconsistent, you're not going to
continue to go up the chains of college to minor
leagues to big leagues. You're not. You're going to fizzle
out at some point. Because that's what separates the high
levels down is it's not they're better athletes overall. There's

(10:29):
great athletes in high school. There's great athletes and college
that never will sniff, you know, the next level because
they aren't consistent. They can't repeat their moves and they
can't do it day in and day out. And I
don't mean get three to four hits a day. I
mean quality at bats day in and day out, day in.
Just put the focus on the consistency, and I promise

(10:51):
the success is gonna come if you can. If you
can see pitches and see spin and react to velocity,
you've got a chance to be pretty good. If you
can repeat your movies one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
I think of things that I looked at the clip
and we talked about hitters want to be you try
to be as violent as you can while maintaining your
swing mechanics. And that's that's a great line because I
feel like these kids today are so stuck in let
me see your exit, be low off the tigue. Well,
that doesn't teach you anything related to the game. That
does nothing. I preached two things. Be early and stay

(11:24):
through the middle of the diamond. Try to keep it
as simple as possible. And and you see all these
you know, I do a lot with eighteen U national
team every summer. I go to carry and see some
of the greatest high school players. And these kids are
gifted and they're talented, but they're bend for four years.

(11:44):
The first year when we had I think we had
eighteen picks, the first eighteen or the first thirty picks
in the first round. We're at or one of the
top hundred that came to carry in the beginning. The
kids that made that team, they had a different Like
I was shocked. It was my first year and they're
knowledge of how to approaching it back. I was like, damn,
these kids are way farther beyond than I ever was.

(12:06):
They're getting two one sliders from kids throwing ninety three
to ninety four from the left side, and they're staying
on and I'm like, damn. And then I saw that
year was kind of an anonymomy, and you know, the
next couple of years the kids were just as talented,
but their game knowledge has gone away. And I think
that's where today's game has gotten away from. You're taking
away guys that actually stood down the barrel of a

(12:27):
gun at sixty feet six inches and had to think
on the fly. I know what you do, but I'm
not coming off what I want to do. And I
think sometimes all this data and analytics, they make them robotics,
where like you have to look at this because the
percentage just says so you might be different and if
you're consistent with what you do. I always tell my son,

(12:48):
don't come off what you want to do until you
have to, until they force you. And if you live
with that, you'll be successful more times than not. And
that kind of ties into talking about your son's story.
I'd love to you know, your son signed at Auburn,
got told I'll let you tell it because my son
had the exact same thing happened to him, and it's
it's a shame.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
So yeah, I mean, you know, I tell this story
all the time because once that went on social media,
I had all kind of people asking me about it,
and you know, the first thing I tell them is this, Look,
I have no hard feelings toward Auburn. My wife went
to Auburn, my daughter's going to be a sophomore at Auburn.
Like I love Auburn and I love you know, I
think Butch Thompson, all of them are just phenomenal men.
And you know they put together a really good baseball program,

(13:31):
which they did this year. You know they saw in
the Super Regional. So I say that to people first, like,
it's not any bad toward Auburn. It's just that's where
power five top D one teams have gone. Now it's
more about like you said, it's more about x Blossie.
It's more about velocity on the mound. If you don't
throw ninety five, you won't pitch there. If you don't

(13:52):
hit the ball so hard, or can you know, leave
the park at wheel, you can't play there. And that's
what my son was. My son was a late bloomer.
And the coach in high school actually Steve renfro Play,
I mean play sorry. He coached at Auburn with Halbert
and then he was the head coach for a couple
of years, and he told the coaches at Auburn, you know,
he said, look, you're going to have to give Wesley

(14:14):
two years. He's a late bloomer. He's going If you
give him two years, he'll be right here and where
D one is now with the transfer portal and everything,
you know, to me, the development side has went down
because now it's you got to do it now or
you're gone where it used to be. I'm going to
develop a freshman to help me when they're you know,

(14:35):
hopefully a sophomore, but definitely when they're a junior senior.
Well that's flipped and that hurt my son because he
was a late bloomer. Well it was honestly hurt him
at the time, but it was the best thing that
ever happened to him because he transferred to JUCO. Because
he red shirted at Auburn's first year. He transferred to
JUCO and absolutely had the time of his life. He

(14:56):
got to go Shelton. It was Shelton State in Alabama.
They went to the Juker World Series two years in
a row. He actually wound up being the fourth all
time hitter to ever be at Shelton. I think it
was like a three sixty eight career clip there. He
had three eighty something. His second year he started getting
his power. I think he hit like seven eight homers
his second year and then Casey Dunner UAB picked him up.

(15:18):
So this was this was his first year at UAB
this spring, and you know, he actually led the team
in conference conference hits. He's in line for the Gold
Glove at first base. I think it comes out this
week or next week. In all of NCAAA baseball, he
could if you don't get it, he would definitely be
in the top ten. So there's a lot of just

(15:40):
great things that's happened to him since he left Auburn.
And now he's going in you know, he's home this summer.
He's training to get even stronger because I told him
straight up, West, I said, look, you can hit. You
can flat out hit. Here at defense is not a question.
Let's get you stronger because where the game is now,
they're going to look at that first. And it's kind

(16:01):
of sad to say that, but I want to help
him as much as possible, Like, hey, we got to
get you stronger, man, we got to get stronger. So
now there's doubles are going to be homers, and if
they see a few more home runs on your stat sheet,
that opens their eyes even more. Even though you have bloodline,
even though you can hit, even though your defense is there,
like literally, you get stronger, that changes everything about you.

(16:25):
And so all this his entire path. You know, everybody's
path is different. And that's what I tell kids. Do
not think you have to go SEC or ACC, go
to JUCO out of high school, you know, go to
a mid major. Like your path could be so different,
you know than anybody else's. Like, don't watch what everybody

(16:46):
else is doing. Be you and if I'd have known
that in high school when Wesley was in high school,
I would have won thousand percent. Just basically said, no,
you're going to Juco out of high school. You're a
late bloomer. Let's you know, take that route. Because the
out he took it changed, but it was the best
thing that ever happened to him.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
It's funny you started that because I with the whole like,
you have no ill feelings to an Auburn. Look, look
I don't. We don't do things like this on this podcast.
We're just trying to educate for parents that might be
listening to have kids in the same similar you know,
I get my son went to Georgia Highlands. My son
towards a cl his junior year, latest junior year, have
nowhere to go. So Georgia Highlands took him on a

(17:27):
win and he played really well, but he was told
that he can't hit over the fence enough. And I'm like, well,
steal some late bloomeries five to nine, but guess what
his his barrel skills like, get the barrel of the ball,
it's what you want. And I said, now you're home
for the summer, we're gonna work like hell, they want
I go, I'm trying to make increase your juice while

(17:50):
maintaining your bat to barrel, your barrel of batskill barrel
barrel ball skill. And I said, I always tell people
all the time, like even the Pro Bowl, I'm like,
home runs start out contact bug Like that's just like
the more I just don't understand, the more efficient I
make you. I had this talk with someone in Minnesota.
He was one of the higher ups, and he was shocked.

(18:10):
I had a five foot seven shortstop and I had
a six foot five, two hundred and seventy pounds switch
hitting first basement DH. I called him mini David Ortiz
because he looked like David. It's big, big teddy bear basically.
But he was shocked that I was teaching both of
them the same thing. Like I was like, well, the

(18:32):
five foot seven guy, I'm trying to be as fish
as possible, get the barrel of the ball so his
line drives, go over the short stops head and split
a gap. I said, the difference is with the other
guy his if I takes some that same swing, that
ball goes off a scoreboard because of size and strength
and leverage and everything else. I said, the idea doesn't change.
It doesn't matter if you're eight feet tall or four
feet tall. I'm still trying to get you a fish

(18:52):
into the ball. So that like all that tied in,
and it's funny that you said all that stuff, and
it's hey, you know what, if you make solid contact,
those balls have a better chance of making it over
the fence than the swing and a miss. And that's
what I don't understand in today's world is this, Hey,
then everybody has power rut of the shoot and looks.
This is no knock against college baseball at all. But

(19:15):
there's a lot of really good teams that are hitting guys.
And this is my fight from the recruiting side of it,
because basically my job at EES is basically when a
kid we send out a story, coaches read it right,
they're intrigued. They call back, like, I know what the
metrics say. My job is coming into like Kenny play,
we do HP or c s P. Can she play?

(19:38):
I'm like yes, Like what she does or what he
does doesn't show up on that exit velossity sheet. But
I promise you this kid will eat you on a field,
Like he just does things better than everybody else does
and you're gonna love it. So that's kind of my
job to kind of like talk to coaches and speak
coach talk to them and so that they overlook the
metrics a little bit. So that's kind of But it's

(19:58):
funny how our story of our kids are everywhere and
I deal with it every day. The portal. Really good
players are in the portal, like, there's nothing wrong with that.
Use it to your advantage to an extent. But your
next move might be your favorite move. You don't know
that your mid major might be where you want to stay,
because there's some really good coaches that are still developing
at that level to whereas, like you said, the SEC

(20:19):
and ACC they don't have time. They have to win
now with the pressures of what's going on around them,
and that's a that's a tough gig. But there is
a place for late bloomers like your son, my son
that are really good players that need a place that
find a place to play and they actually they go
prove it, which is what I was getting to. The
fact that Wesley went out there and showed it and
proved it was I love it, Like I'm always on

(20:41):
the player's side being like, yeah, good job, Like that's
that's awesome. You like, you're not trying to stick to somebody,
but you're also they told my son the same thing.
You'll never play here you don't hit it off the
fence enough. I'm like, use it as a motivator. What's
someone else's trash is someone else's diamond. Don't ever forget that,
and don't have to believe everything you see. Use it,
but don't let it define you.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
You said something. Two things I'm gonna hit on from
what you just said. The most I tell everybody this
at hitting, the most important metric in hitting is barrel accuracy.
Back to ball skills. Learn how to line the barrel
up on every pitch. Train for that in the cage,
train for that off the tee. I tell kids straight up,

(21:24):
when they hit off the tee, you're hitting the center
of the ball every single time. You're gonna build barrel accuracy.
So then in the game you have more room for era,
like you can adjust so much better and have adjustability.
And it's flipped. In today's game. It seems like that
they teach strength first, swing hard first, and then and

(21:47):
then they try to, you know, get them to you know,
barrel balls, and I'm like it should be the other
way around. You teach them back to ball skills first,
and then I could get you stronger in the weight room.
I could get you stronger with all the technology and training.
Now you're going to get faster. You know, you're gonna
get stronger. You're gonna be able to get the barrel
there faster with fast you know, fast speed training or
whatever it is they do. So that being said, if

(22:10):
hitting coaches from you know, ten years old all the
way up just talk back to ball skills, hitters would
be so much better. And you made a good point.
I'm gonna take a high school kid that is super
strong or a high school kid that hadn't developed yet,
and I'm gonna teach them the same way. I'm never
teaching a kid to hit the ball on the ground

(22:33):
every single time. I'm never teaching the kid to hit
the ball in the air. I'm teaching them to line
the barrel up, be on time, line the barrel up,
get on plane, and strength changes how far the ball goes.
And as you get stronger, the ball is going to
start going further and further and further. Like if you
look at Mike Trout. I always pull up his stats
from when he went into pro ball, his rookie year

(22:55):
as he went up to change into the big leagues.
He wasn't a huge power guy his first first year.
I mean it was like rookie ball, A ball double A.
He started creeping up in homers, and I show kids that,
I'm like, look, even as one of the best players
ever step on the field, he he hasn't maximized his
power as a rookie in pro ball, he was. He

(23:17):
stuck to the same thing he always did when he
was in high school. He got stronger, he got his
man's strength, and he started hitting the ball further. And
you know, he's going to go down as one of
the best players to ever play the game. And if
he hadn't got injured so much, it might have been
one of the best players. So piggyback on that too.
It's it's confidence too.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
I've never seen a kid get caught more confident from
I'm swinging and missing never I said. So, the more
you make contact, the more your confidence grows. And power
has everything to do with confidence. When you have the
confidence that kind of let it eat a little bit
because I don't have fear with hitting. With two strikes,
I can go ahead and you know, let's say, you know,
let's say, anticipate a pitch, anticipate a spot to eat

(24:00):
a little more, and then all of a sudden, guess what,
I'm cool, I got two strikes. I'll go back to
what I normally do and I'll put my bat to
the ball.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Still.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
It's but you think, and I even a little league,
I'm like, get rid of the little fences. Take away
the fences. I know it's cool for kids hit homers,
but you're not helping a kid when he's hitting one
hundred and twenty foot flat balls for homers and rewarding it.
It's great for you right now. Don't get me wrong.
I wanted to hit one too, but when the fences
are so far. Like I said, I grew up in

(24:27):
fields that didn't have fences, like we had open fields,
so if you wanted to hit a homer, one you
had to run, and two if I split the gap
on a low line drive, those things rolled for days,
and that kind of benefited me getting older, and then
I started getting bigger and stronger, and all of a sudden,
those balls went over the fence, so it ties into
everything that we're kind of talking about.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
It does, man. I mean, I just that's the only
gripe I have about a lot of the hitting coaching
going on now, Like everybody's everybody that teaches hitting, even
on social media. There's there's positives you can take away
from everything, and I love it that they put time
into all these kids, but I wish they would just
stress hitting and not just swinging. There's a huge difference

(25:10):
in being a hitting coach and a swing coach. I mean,
I can tell kids all day long, I can make
you have a perfect swing. But guess what, Doug, you
and I played with guys in big lees didn't have
the prettiest swings. So they hit three hundred because they
knew how to get the bat to the ball, and
like you said, they felt like they were Key Kongan
to play. They had confidence like nobody could get them out.
I didn't care if I was facing Tom Blavin that

(25:30):
was a crafty lefty, or I was facing Billy Wagner
coming in in the night throwing a hundred. I didn't care.
I knew when I stepped in the batter's box. Jiffer
Jones said this on a podcast, and I loved what
he said because I played with Chipper. He said, I
felt like I was the best hitter in the world
every day I stepped in the batter's box. He goes,
that was my mentality. I might not have got a hit,

(25:51):
I might have hit a homer, but every time I
stepped in the batter's box, I was the best hitter
in the world, and I knew it wasn't far that. Yeah,
well that is true if he wasn't far off. But
that's I mean, that just goes to what you said,
man like confidence. Man confidence comes with kids being able
to put the ball in play. And you know what
you said, it perfect Like if a kid strikes out

(26:13):
at a young age, it destroys them. But even if
they put a ball in play in a short stop
makes air and they get them first, they're so happy,
like they love it because they got on base. So
if you think about it, like let them put the
ball in play, because especially at the younger levels, defense
isn't what it's going to be when it gets older.
But if they can learn to put the ball in play,
you got something to work with as they go up.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
I try to tell kids too, and correct me if
I'm wrong. Every hot streak I've gone on as a player,
from high school to the big leagues. How I got
out of a funk was the ugliest bassit you've ever seen.
It was a groop over the third basement set. It
was a broken bat that I got jammed high hell,

(26:57):
and that just happened to land in the Bermuda triangle.
I remember Scott Erickson jammy so bad that it landed
behind the mound and it checked up between the back
of the mount and the rosen bag, and I beat
it out and I went on a chair. After that,
I said, so that's where I go. If I'd have
swung and missed, that twelve for nineteen with three homers
would never have happened. Because I didn't. I was the snowball,

(27:19):
was going downhill on how negative everything was going on
in my head. But I finally got a hit. I
got to exhale. I got on first. All of a sudden,
life not ending, and I can breathe and I can
sleep at night, and all of a sudden, I feel
good about it. So I you know, it's so you
brought up Chipper, and I was kind of like where
I was leading the next thing, like the guys that
you played with, coaches who influenced you, and how you

(27:42):
wanted to even pass your information along, and to tie
it into go back one more time. I always tell
kids this, give me nine kids or nine players with
bad swings and good approaches, over nine good swings and
no approach, and the ones with good approaches will be
the team with nine great swings every day of the

(28:02):
week and twice on Sunday. And it ties into at
the ball skills and knowing who you are and be
the best of who you can be. And I, you know,
I think that speaks for kind of what we're talking
about with our kids. My son tried went to Highlands
trying to be a home run hitter. Yeah, he finally
hit one over the scoreboard to Appo, which you loved,
and I loved it too, because you're you know, absolutely
who doesn't, I said, But I don't make the same

(28:25):
mistakes I did. I went years trying to force the
ball over the fence, try to turn fifteen and twenty,
and then fifteen became ten, try to make ten into fifteen,
ten became eight, and I learned over time be the
best you you can be. It sounds simple, it sounds
spliche ish, but I'm like, be the best Doug I
can be. I'm gonna be the best hitter. Sure, I

(28:45):
want to hit forty home runs. I want to be
Jason john Be. I want to be Carlos Dogato, but
that's not in the cards with what I'm dealing with.
So be the best person, the best you you can be,
Be the best, be the hardest, toughest out you can
possibly be. Is at the end of the day, coaches,
players play players they can trust, and if you're a
tough out, you're trusted.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
So I want to go back. I want to hit
on that. And then I want to tell you the
player that influenced me the most, So Charlie Maniel loved
the guy to death. He always told us, know thyself,
know thyself. Guess what, Jimmy Rollins, You're not Ryan Howard,
Chase Utley, You're not Pat Burrell. You be you. You
be the player because the lineup I put out there

(29:29):
every day goes it's all goes around the player you are,
because that's how I could struct my lineup. And if
I could struct my lineup, and you're not and you
try to do something that you can't do or you're
not capable of, it messes the entire structure of that
lineup up and that stuck with me. When I play
with him, I'm like, you know what, we watch all

(29:50):
these phenomenal athletes. I watched Barry Bonds all the time,
and I was fascinated, like, why can't I hit like that?
But I knew I couldn't and nobody else could. So
that being said, you got to I know yourself, and
sometimes that means it's a you know, you got to
take a punch in the face and realize, like, you know,
I'm not an All Star, I'm not an MVP, but
guess what I could be? The best I could be

(30:10):
to make a great living in the big leagues and
also help my team win or do something every night
to help my team win. And that was the attitude
I took. But it was from Charlie Mannel when he
said no thyself, and that changed my entire mindset about
what I needed to do as a player. Flip that around.
Jiffer Jones is the by far because I came up
with Atlanta. I was a rookie and I was a

(30:32):
rookie in Atlanta and we were taking batting practice. One day,
he took me under his wing and he calls me
his protege. That's where he signed. I got to sign,
Jersey says to my protege, and he took me under
his wing. He treated me so awesome because I came
up to the third baseman. He was a third baseman.
And I get to the big leagues and I'm taking
VP one day and I was very top end it

(30:53):
and I'm just driving balls left center and left field.
I mean just clipping on there, going you know, ten rows,
and he pulls me to side and he goes, hey,
shift the field. He goes do that right center a
few times in DP, and I'm like, okay. I literally
go up there and I'm like, hey boom, and all
of a sudden second, one I hit one off o

(31:14):
right center. He goes, hey, try to hit the second
basement in the head. Four line drives in the road.
I think one hop is second basement driving balls over
Secrevation's head. And I was like, what are you trying
to tell me? He goes, look, your top hand dominant.
You got to control that because there's going to be
pictures you face. That is going to that's gonna hurt

(31:36):
you if you know down the road. Well, I didn't
think much of it. So he goes, hey, when you
play it, you're starting tonight, you know, just take that
approach the entire game one time. So I went into
the game. You know, I can't remember the entire game,
but I do remember the one at fact that stood out.
Alan Embury came in from San Francisco, another lefty throwing

(31:57):
ninety seven, but had about this much run. It was
running away from me at ninety seven, and I'll never
forget it. I hit an absolute bomb just to the
right of center field, and I get the dugout and
Chippers laughing, and I'm like, why are you laughing? Man?
He goes, what I told you in MVP today, That's
what it showed up right there. He goes, if you

(32:19):
would have tried to pull Alan Embry to try to
cheat to get to his fastball, you would have either
swung a miss or you at a capped that ball
or foulted off. You never would have hit a home
run just right a center field. That's what I wanted
you to understand. There's gonna be pictures that you can. Hey,

(32:39):
let's pull them, but hey, majority of them, you better
stay big part of the field and you better stay
in line with second basement approach to centerfield approach. And
that changed my entire outlook on hitting, changed my entire career.
And that's when I became gap to gap. I was
a gap to gap hitter more doubles than homers and

(33:00):
ship to I, oh Chipper Jones, basically for helping me
be the hitter I was, but probably getting me the
twelve years the big leads because it was allowing me
to be the consistent hitter I was for that long.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
That's awesome. I tell our kids all the time, like, hey,
you got to categorize guys, right, you're getting to a
level now, Or like you should see a guy warm up.
You guys have film, whatever it is you're watching film.
You see him warm up, you see his arm angle.
You got to categorize them. Now, does that you know?
Does he have satan? Does he have a pitch that
you can't handle? For me, it was a split. I
couldn't take him. I took the strikes and swing with

(33:32):
the balls. So if I knew he had split, I
kind of went earlier in the count. I might have
waited if he didn't have it, Like, that's a bad
matchup for me. So I knew that going in I'd
better be a little more open to the whole field
early in the count to stay away from the two strike.
I call Satan, I say, you guys have a chance
to work. Okay. You can see him warm up and
be like, Okay, is this a guy I got I
really got to fight to stay inside? Is this a

(33:52):
guy I can have some freedom to kind of let
it go twice on the pull side if you want to,
or box him into a certain count or what I said.
So you guys, you guys just because And that's where
I think I tie into where I talk about like
there's so many one swing guys and it's like and
I've even in eighteen U and these kids are giant
and they're talented, and I'm like, I go, the object

(34:13):
of hitting is to not take your swing and hope
they throw it into your back path. Like that's not hitting.
I said, like, you've got to be able to adjust
and change and be able to swallow your pride and say,
you know what, maybe to be the most efficient today,
I gotta have in order to hit the ball you want,
everybody wants you to hit. I better commit over here
a little bit. Take his whoopee cushion away, and take

(34:37):
his strength away. Hit a line driver with the second
basement's head. Hit a ball in the right center field gap.
Now I box him into where he has to come
to me. Okay, now I go, I said, but there's
so many things that that. Just to go up there
and think one minded and I think, and again, I
don't blame the players today. I don't blame them. The
industry is forcing them. It's the argument we get every day, right,

(34:59):
we're old hats. What ever it is they hit more
home runs than you do. I'm like, well, look, if
I had the freedom to strike out one hundred and
eighty times, you're damn sure I would have had a
hell of a lot. If I could have hit two
twenty with one hundred and eighty strikeouts, I would have
hit more than ten home runs a year. I'd have
hit more than fifteen, for sure. But if we struck
out one hundred times, we had to repeat the level

(35:19):
or go back. And if you hit two forty bub
you better get your you know, you better get it together,
otherwise you're going back. So and it's not about me
better than you or you couldn't hit now. And that
was my argument in pro ball also, it was like
it kept telling me the velo's higher. I'm like, it
doesn't matter, I said, whether it's ninety one point five

(35:40):
or ninety five point six. If it's the norm, hitters
get used to it. It's not different. Different is what
changes things Like I'm fifty years old. If you give
me three pitches at one hundred, I'll hit one of them.
I can promise you that you had movement to it.
I got no shot. So like that's in deception and
all other stuff so that it's like they feel like

(36:03):
we're not. I'm not trying to fight the good fight.
I'm just trying to teach reality to kids to be like, yes,
you have to listen to it, but the same token
I live by the model be different, be different, whether
it be different with the way you act. Right, kids
today they walk up and crocs they walk up. You
know there are people are evaluating you from the second

(36:24):
you leave your car, and they don't understand that there
be different hustle on and off the field. It doesn't
take any talent at all. I go back to, like,
there's a lot of things that go into that. That's
what was bred into us and we were just the norm.
But at the same token, like be different. We use
that at eas all the time, teaching them how to
go to a camp, go to this, talk to a coach,

(36:47):
or go ask a coach what's your biggest accompliment as
a coach. Kids don't ask that, like be different. I go.
They don't have to remember how you played. They see
thousands of you a day, but they're gonna remember that
what you ask them. So I kind of that's kind
of it's a it's a it's a tug of ward
that we deal with all the time, and it's frustrating.

(37:09):
And social media is great, but at the same token,
it's also I worry about what my kids are watching,
what they're trying to do. I use this every time,
and I'm trying to not trying to bombard this, but
every time I work with a kid and who's your
favorite player? Like who do you watch? Who do you like? Okay,

(37:32):
and so I will try to like, go whatever it is,
Bryce Harper, Okay, I go watch Bryce Harper film, show
it to them. This is what I'm trying to get
you to do, and that I understand that it's not
the same amount.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
They're not.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
You guys aren't comparable, but there's moves in there that
we're trying to do. Look at how much on stretch
he is right, he's balanced, he stays down his legs,
all all the checklist stuff. So it's funny how you
have to kind of trick them in. You lay the
bread combs down and you get them follow you and
like what Chipper did with you, like everything Chipper said

(38:08):
from there on out, you were a hook line and sinker, right,
And that's that's That's the part I feel like in
the game has gone too, is that the veteran guys
they don't We don't have a lot of that anymore.
And my guy was Andre Ethier, same situation. We're facing
Randy Johnson and Andre's trying to inside out him. And
it was definitely, don't get me wrong, it was Randy
towards the end. It wasn't the ninety nine, but he

(38:30):
was still he was still nasty and left on left
it was never fun. And I said, I go, you
need to take your left field and make it center field.
I said, don't keep because if you're trying to go
to left and you're losing your barrel, I said, the
angles you're dropping under. I said, cut the angle off
on the outside corner. I said, if you hit the
ball on the outside corner, you you think drive ball center. Well,

(38:50):
long story short, he had a home run and I
had a hook line and sinker. That was the opening weekend.
I'm like, look, I didn't do anything. I just told
you an approach or a thought process to change in
at work. And now you won't leave me alone because
and granted I would be the same way, But that's
the stuff, the little things that that sheet of paper
can't teach. That little sheet of paper can't tell you.
The guy that's in the office that's trying to tell

(39:12):
you how to be a better hitter doesn't work. You
still need can you use both, of course, but you
need both. You need to have real life situations to
work here. This is what's gonna work here.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
That's a great point. I always say, this mess it together.
Take okay. It's like a fish. You know, when you
go fish like a fishing net, they sift like when
they go in the ocean, they sift through the sand,
the sand falls through. I always say, take all this
and put it there, and whatever comes through is what
you take. Like it's not gonna be everything. You cannot
overload yourself with that much information. Take what works for

(39:47):
you and roll with it. I know Jim told me
and I talked about this not long ago. All he
cared about. He's like, all I wanted to know was
what was the v load? How did it move? And
what was this out two strike pitch? How is he
gonna put me away? That's all I cared about. And
it was simple. And this guy is you know, six
hundred plus homers and Hall of Fame. So everybody's different.

(40:07):
Some guys want to know what they throw in different
counts and they can process that. I love the fact
that everybody's different, but also you have to know what
you can process and what you can and going back
to what you know, the way that you know, the
young kids and everything. I think what's lost in our
game now, Doug, is the lack of respect for things.

(40:30):
It's become such a selfish culture because of social media,
because of you know, Showcase Baseball. It's become such a
like when we were growing up. You didn't disrespect the game.
You never showed a teammate up. You did not disrespect
the other team. You know, you did not fear anybody,
but you respected everyone. Like I never feared, you know,

(40:54):
any of the pitchers that I faced, but I respected
them because I knew they were good. But that being like,
you see now, like there's so much disrespect in the
game now as far as the way you act on
the field, the way they wear their uniforms. I mean,
you and I came up in an era of managers
and organizations stressed to you. In the minor leagues. There's

(41:16):
a way you wear your uniform. There's you wear it
with pride. You you you know, you make everything everything's clean,
it's nothing. You know, you're not rolling your pants up
above your knees. You're not, you know, doing certain things
that to me just disrespects the uniform. Coming up with
Bobby Cox, coming up with Hall of Famers in the
Atlanta Clubhouse, I had, I had players that held us

(41:40):
accountab with me, Mark de Rosa, Marcus Giles, all of us.
When we came up as rookies, if you got out
of line, they was going to let you know it,
and at the time, yeah, it pissed you off. You're like,
what a minute, wait a minute, and you know, cause
we're like full of stosterone. We're in the big leagues.
We're twenty one years old, twenty two years old. But
as I got going in my career, I was so

(42:00):
thankful to come up with the Bobby cox Is, having
Glenn Hubbard and Pat Caralis and Ned Ghost out on
the coaching staff and then having players in the clubhouse.
That taught you not only how to play the game
the right way, but how to act. How to act
in the clubhouse, how to act on the plane, how
to act when you go in a hotel, how to
you know, not to show the other team up but

(42:22):
you're trying to beat them. There's so many things that
we learned coming up though that I don't think is
taught in today's game. And it shows and how the
players act, and if the big leaders do it, guess
what the high school players and the junior high players
are going to do it. They need to lead by
example of how their presence is on the field, and

(42:42):
you know, go out there to do what you do
and be the best you can be. But the all
the stuff. Some of this stuff going on now, to
me is just that that kind of takes away from
who you are as a player, because it just makes
you not want to watch it.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Oh, I mean, that's funny you said that. I mean Tory,
Tory Hunter cleaned his spikes every day, even in the
big leagues. That's what was born and bred in us.
Of us growing up, Larry Corgan would. We had to
set our lockers, and he would, and I wasn't very
good at it. I had to learn it. But the
helmet went in the middle of the hat went to
the left. Your spikes were clean, and we and that's

(43:18):
Tory is not the only one, jock. Everybody we all
cleaned our own shoes because that's what we had to do.
And that was born bred in us. And you know, thankfully,
I trust me. We didn't like it, like you said,
I didn't like it going through it, but it taught
us like, hey, this is the way it's supposed to
be done. This is the way, this is the way
when I get there, this is the way we're gonna

(43:39):
teach it. This is the way it has to be.
And blila, you learn habits, you learn respect, you learn
the ways to do things, and it's funny. I go
back to what you said about Jim Tomy. I remember
vividly playing for the Yankees and Derek Jeter. Same thing.
He wanted no villa and out pitched. He didn't care
about anything else. And if Kevin Long or Donni Maddeley
would say, like this guy's ninety one to ninety three,

(44:02):
if he threw a pitch ninety four from the batter's box,
he would scream, k Long done, and he pointed at
it like you were off one, Like he was like,
that's not ninety three at ninety four, but from the
batter's box he would scream, and I'm like, man, like
this guy, like that's what he did. Like I cringe
at some of these kids now, because if you gave

(44:24):
me that much information, I would be so robotic and
so slow, and then the last thing I would do
was touch trust my ability, and I already had trouble
doing that in the first place. So if you add
all this other stuff and it ties into I use
this a lot with kids too, it's like, yeah, my
rookie year, I was awful, awful, and a lot of
it was because I was trying to hit to please

(44:46):
the manager. I didn't hit to be successful, and I
would like hear what they had. Tim Hudson, Right, he's
one oho was a seventy eight percent, was a sinker away.
So I'm gonna go ahead and hit the one hot
ground ball the short stop. I'm going I can do
that in my sleep. What am I doing?

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Like?

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Why am I doing that now? But I wanted to
prove that I was paying attention. And I was like,
but that's not making me successful. And I told Steal
this last night. I said, when you go back this year,
hit to please you, hit to please you, be successful
because I promise you when you're hitting three fifty, he's
not gonna sit you. It might not be the way

(45:25):
you want it, but guess what like And that's the
one thing I said. The difference between my first year
and my second year was if I'm going down, I'm
going down my way because I can look myself in
the mirror and say, you know what, I just.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
Wasn't good enough right for sure?

Speaker 1 (45:39):
And that goes back to knowing who you are and
trusting who you are. So I said, this has been great.
I'd love to do this more often. I'm gonna text you.
I'm gonna text you when we get off this thing
because I'm gonna put an order in for my Camwoods.
So the journey is great. I love it. I love
your stories. Keep I mean because without you and guys

(46:00):
like yourself, I try to push everybody that I have
in high school because look, look at this stuff. This
is a great example and it's not easy to do.
And from an old school baseball guy who's still involved
in it, man oh man, like, hats off to you.
Keep grinding, and these kids are so lucky to have

(46:21):
guys like yourself and a company like that to keep pushing.
And the information is phenomenal and it's a it's a
huge thing on the way to keep going up. I'm
so happy that you guys are doing it well and
continue success well.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
I appreciate that. I mean, that means the world to
me because that's I literally have a passion to poor
what you and I learned at the highest level into
these kids. And if I could just get a kid
to be a starter in high school and then they
don't go to college but they started in high school,
then we won. You know, We're not everybody can't play
at the highest level. But for me to pour my
knowledge into these kids and just see them get better

(47:00):
her and see the smile on her face real quick.
The other day you probably you probably see a girl
I work with, Cheney Peters. You know, she uh phenomenal
high school player, just finished up at Illinois this year,
and she she come to clean up some stuff that
we were, you know, she wanted to work on, and
her mom, like, after two times being with her, her

(47:20):
mom text me and she goes, I can't thank you enough.
And I text her back and I said, hey, look,
it takes time. I'll get her where she needs to be.
She goes, no, you don't understand. I haven't seen her
smile like that in years. And I'm like, wait a minute.
So I was like, what do you mean. She goes,
she got so stressed out of the grind and going

(47:41):
you know, Illinois, of the stress of playing in college.
She forgot how you know, it's fun, And that meant
the world to me. That sit deep, man, It's like,
you know what this is more than just about teaching
these kids how to hit or teaching them the game.
You can change a kid's life just by pouring your
knowledge into someone and they'm seeing you care seeing her

(48:03):
smile like her mom, seeing her smile meant the world
to her. She because I don't care if she plays
another game ever, I just love seeing her smile like that.
So that's what I take pride in, is just pouring
into these kids and hopefully you can get something out
of them, not just on the field, but in life due.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Amen to that. I've had some I've managing some kids
that I've had. I've had issues with in pro ball,
and I thought they couldn't stand me. Yet you know,
when when it's all said and done, they're calling me
for job references and I'm like, absolutely, of course I
would like just because we had it, we went be
bucked heads. It doesn't mean I don't care about you.
I have parents, you know, when they're you know, their

(48:43):
kids get called up, they call me and they text
me and say, hey, you know what, You've changed his life,
And I'm like, that's what That's the greatest part of
this game. Max Kepler's parents. I mean, my goodness, gracious,
Max and I bumped heads constantly, and I'm sure he
didn't care for me for a lot of years, but
the joy that I felt when he got the call

(49:03):
to go to the big leagues. Was like, that's one
of my own. That's one of my kids, right, and
like to have the parents say you've changed his life. Man,
that's what coaching is all about. And that's what I
think as a detriment sometimes in pro ball because I
cared about my kids too much. And I don't think
that's ever gonna be a problem. You're a product of
how you were raised. I was raised by John Russell
and my dad, and John Russell went against some organizational

(49:29):
kind of things to make me better to get me
into the big leagues. So I'm gonna do it within
a certain parameter. But like my job is to get
you to the big leagues when I was a manager,
I'm gonna do whatever I can. And when you go,
I'm not gonna take any credit, but I'm gonna pat
myself on the back because I know, like I loved
and I have so much pride watching you guys play
at the next level. So it amen to that. It's

(49:52):
been an honor. Man, This is awesome. Meaning to do
this more often.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Bobby Cox said it to me, I'll never forget it.
He said, when you manage one day with do not
care if players like you, but make them respect you,
because he goes if they respect you, they will always
remember you the rest of their life. And I'm like that, dude,
that's awesome. That is like, and that's what you're saying
those kids. You poured your heart into those kids that

(50:17):
you thought at the time they hated you, but you
are actually you're You're seeking deep inside of them and
they'll never forget you for that. And that's that's what
we take pride in, you know it, Cam would. But
also when I'm in the cage, man, it's all about
that kid. That's all I got.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Let go by the Twins after I think it was
twenty seventeen or eighteen, and I literally I have I
still have the screenshots of the text of all the
guys somebody didn't even manage, somebody just saw on spring training.
I have every text, instant message, direct message, whatever, and
I've kept them like I read them once in a
while because I'm like, you know what, like this is
what I'm getting back to, like I missed this, I

(50:53):
missed this part. I read them every once in a
while and be like for a little motivation to be like,
you know what, this is keep going. You're almost done
when I get my crack in college, Like, this is
what's gonna make it. I can't wait. I'm I'm someone
I can't wait. I pray that I get a shot
because I want there's nothing more than than changing the
path of a kid's life. And they have nothing to

(51:15):
do with numbers. It's about, you know, turning boys and
the men. And that's what the best part of this
job is.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well, yeah, that's that's a good way to look at it.
I mean, I'll say this last thing we'll go. I mean,
if you think it the percentages of high school players
that play in college, and the percentage of college that
go play and pro, and the percentage of minor leaders
that ever make it to the big leagues. Think about
that big percentage that never makes it. They got to
go live life one day and be a dad or
you know, or a mom if they're a softball player, like,

(51:42):
they got life to live one day. So if all
coaches would think, like to you on that when you
get back in the game, man, that coaching would be
so much different in the in today's game. If coaches
would just think the way you just.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Said, absolutely absolutely, Well I said, keep doing what you're doing, buddy,
Image lives man. It's all awesome.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
I love it. Thank you man, I really appreciate this.
This has been awesome. I love any time you need me,
I'm here for you. All right.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
That's gonna wrap up this episode of The Dugout. Can't
think Wes Helm's enough. What an amazing family man, tremendous
knowledge passing it along to the next generation. It's quite
a neat thing to see and it makes me feel
good when you have big leaders that did it the
right way, continue to pass the knowledge around. Hats off
the camera, bats hat, hats off the West. That being said,

(52:29):
that wraps up this episode of The Dugout. Like us,
subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, Apple, Spotify,
the works. Until next time, it's the Doug mcrior's in
the Dugout.