May 21, 2025 • 25 mins
On this episode of The Dougout, Doug continues his conversation with one of the most interesting men in sports — longtime MLB GM and current Pepperdine professor Ned Colletti.
In part 2, Ned breaks down what separates great organizations like the Dodgers from struggling ones like the White Sox and Rockies. He shares what “organizational culture” really means, why leadership matters, and highlights the brilliance of Kim Ng, a true trailblazer and close colleague he’s worked with for years. Plus, Ned reflects on his transition into teaching at Pepperdine. What hasn't he done?!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
There's so many factors into all of that. You know,
once in a while, when a player would get suspended
for a game or two, I said, hey, if you
want to sit upstairs with me, you're welcome to do it.
And you know, probably once a year somebody would take
me up on the offer and sit next to me
during a game. And at the end, I said, so, so,
you know, how was your knight and they said, I'm exhausted.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Absolutely know.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
It's like the amount of things that you're going through
and thinking about people like whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I wish I knew that when you guys signed him.
I brought Jim Tobi over. I could have sat the
whole time up there. I could have watched the playoff
from up there. Yeah no, but.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It's crazy to me to think of people think, oh,
he's got only got this to do. And I remember Terry,
even Terry Ryan would he was everywhere he wanted to
be more in the minor leagues. Then I saw Terry
more as a minor league player that I did a
big league player.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And it was.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Almost to the point where I and I don't mean
just me, I mean me aj Prazinski, uh Tory Hunter
when we got in the big leagues, we were like, Terry, like,
where are you? Like, now we're in the big leagues
and now we're actually working for.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You and we never see you. We just want to
be seen.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Like come walk from the clubhouse like that's not my
clubhouse and go I go, bs, this is your clubhouse,
Like like.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We're we're like your kids, man, like we want we
want to see you. We want to do this.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
At the time, it was like a bash against Tom
Kelly because we all wanted to We all love Terry.
We had problem with TK not knowing we're just young
and stupid. But like the thought was like, hey, I
want you to be visible. So when I moved around,
I'm very lucky to play for a hell a lot
of really good gms and and you're one of them obviously,
but you were seeing And I think that means something
like we felt like.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Being older as a player helps.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
But I felt like when I when we all were
on the same page and it wasn't us against.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Them, was a huge factor. And I think some places
kind of go through that.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, well I never want and I read with and Terry,
by the way, was one of the greats to me
and somebody who really loved the development of players was
really in that realm. My view and I share the
same view as far as you know. It wasn't my clubhouse.
It's the players clubhouse. But I always was.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I was around.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I probably walked through it four times a week, five
times a week, I think, you know. I was almost
on every road trip. So people if they had something
they could come and see me. They had an issue,
they could. They knew they weren't going to have to
wait a week or two weeks to ferret it out.
And at the same time, if I needed to talk
to somebody, I knew what their days were like, I could.
I could catch them in the food room, I catch
(02:41):
them in the hallway and say, hey, I got to
talk to you for two minutes, you know, because it
was important to have that type of communication.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It goes into like I also brought up I kind
of want to bring up the Rockies and the White Sox,
some teams that aren't doing so great right now. But
I think it ties into this what I'm talking about.
I took a lot of things, and I loved a
lot of things. I remember correct, I don't remember his
first name, Hines but he was your field coordinator. I
can called him Jeter, and I remember he called me
and we got off on the wrong foot. Imagine that
(03:09):
He's like, call me Jeter, and I'm like, I'm not
calling you Jeter. I played with the Jeter and that's
I'm just I did not go to disrespect the man
that I played next to. And that's how we got started.
And by the time by the end of instruction league,
I was like, you're the best ever. Like I remember, adamly,
I've used several things and I'll give you two of them.
(03:30):
The sunglasses on the hat don't block the emblem. I
love it like, I love that like And he got
the guys up and he made him take their glasses
off and he made him make eye contact.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
This is instruction league.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And I thought, and the other thing that I really
do and I still do it to this day. He
would make guys an instructional league. He would make them
go with whoever. It was like, I'll use a twins example.
We had a shortstop. Oh, I made them. I made
him go google Greg Gagney because he probably didn't know
who he was. I'm like, go google Greg Gagney and
give me I want four things on Greg you found
(04:01):
and why do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Why do you think I used him?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Mary Wells was another one with we had a couple
of fast guys. Donald Sweeney I think was there and
and he made them get he made them google. Marie
Wells like, why is he important? And I think it
ties into you. You love the uniform you're in, you
respect the uniform you're in, but you also you pass
the torch so you understand the history of where you're playing.
(04:24):
And I thought that was brilliant and I think especially
in I think every organization needs.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That, but especially the story ones the Dodgers.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
No doubt. You know. One of the classes I teach
at Pepperdinas on sports organizational cultures and and how some
teams sustain success every year they're in it. They don't
win the World Series every year or NBA title or
Stanley Cup or a super Bowl, but every year they've
got a chance. What are some of their qualities? And
(04:54):
you just touched on one of the most important qualities
that they all have, the veterans and those who have come.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Before their goal.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And it's really the All Blacks rugby team out of
New Zealand that believes this and talks about it. You
leave the jersey in a better place, and you care
where it goes, and you care who wheres it next.
And when people care, when people know that you're part
of this, it's a huge thing. So it's it's a
(05:24):
big deal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Like the culture thing.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Talk about that, it's a word that I think it's
like sometimes it gets thrown around and it doesn't have
enough meaning to it. But I'm down here in South Florida,
the Miami Heat. They're not great right now, but like
you look at their culture, like they get more out
of less than any in the NBA. And when you
have Alonso Morning, who's in the front office. Pat Riley's
(05:47):
still at eighty something whatever, seventy eight years old. Still,
I mean, he'll still back you down on the court.
Donnas Haslin. People were wondering why he's on the bench
for thirteen years when he didn't play them, like there's
a reason, Like those guys matter, and I'm like, that's
that's the that's pass into the torch of how we
do things. And I remember, it's funny I got hired
back by the Twins because they they brought us, some
(06:09):
of us back to be like, I want you to
tell us when we're doing things that we didn't do
when you were a player, And yet I would point
it out and I would get kind of pointed out
a little bit, and they didn't like it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm like, but this is.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
What like, I know how we left this place. We
were plugging play when I left. That's how we survived
as a small market. We're plugging play and the next
guy up play plugging right in might be a little better,
it might be a little worse in some aspect, but
where our organization is deep to where are we teach
it from the word jump, We draft accordingly and we
(06:40):
just keep keep the line moving and it ties into
where I see. For me, I see teams like the
White Sox and see teams like the Rockies. I know
when I managed and from a ball all of the
Triple A. And I'm not knocking them, but it's like, why,
like you would watch these guys and you would see
what they would call their prospects.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I'm going, I don't understand this. You don't.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And I've asked the question every time when I would
get hired, what what are we good at?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
What are we what are we trying to accomplish exactly,
go ahead, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Mean who are we? What is our what is our
style of play? What are who are we?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
What are we.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Trying to have? You know, the game is you know,
I'm old enough to remember nineteen ninety four in the
World Series getting canceled, okay, And it was about parody.
It was about giving smaller market teams a chance. It
was the advent of revenue sharing which came out of that,
a lockout strike.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It was.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
It was those types of things. And now you look
at it and it's the moat is farther apart than
it's ever been. And you got the Rockets. I don't
think they've won ten games yet, you know, and we're
halfway through the month of May. We know what the
White Sox went through a year ago. You know, I
don't know that that's good for How is that good
for the game. At the same time, you know, and
(08:00):
I don't want to pick on any organization, and you know,
I'm close with the Dodgers. Organizations still worth their almost
twenty years. You know, think about where they draft other
team Almost every other team is going to pick ahead.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Of them in every round.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And where are the players. Where are the players top.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I've said it for years, like everybody about the Yankees
for how long in the eighties and nineties, in two thousands, Right,
they're picking number twenty.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Eight twenty every year. They're not being the.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Best guy every They're not. And but yes, they have
the money, they have the ability to make a mistake.
And even like the Dodgers last year, I remember watching
the game the World Series games on TV, I'm going, man,
the guys that are hurt are better than the guys
are on the field, and they're in the World Series.
And that's the scary part. But it's not about even
(08:54):
about and I always say this too. Money doesn't mean
you're going to pick the right people. They get the
right people. Doc. I think is doesn't get anywhere near
the credit he deserves because he knows. I learned so
much from from Dave Roberts as a teammate and the
little time I spent with him in Boston, and I
totally understand why those guys it's not easy to get
(09:17):
some to get a group of men to run through
a burning building every single night for you, And you
can tell that there's more to this. There's more to
this than just he did he pull the guy on
the sixth inning. No, he those guys trust him, they
believe in him, and he cares about them. You can
still And I fought that in Minnesota, I cared too
(09:37):
much about the players. But I go, that's not a
bad thing. I said, I know, I know. I used
to remember Miguel sa No, I'll never forget this. I
would just give a look. I had the same kids
for two and a half years. I had Miguel Sino,
Max Kepler, Polanco, Buxton, Burrios, the list goes on, and
I would come in the dugout and I would just
(09:58):
give him a look. And bigelso Noo would come up
and down the doug going, hey, hefe no happy, And
I'm like, he knew, like I'm about to I'm about
to unleash some hell on you guys if you guys
days don't step up. And it was I was harder
on them because I knew they had the talent, and
I knew what they were going to become, and I
knew that they had an obligation to where they had
(10:19):
to bring. You're the next wave that's going to bring
respectability back from Minnesota and I'll be damned if you're
going to be part of me, because I was part
of that. We're gonna do this, and we're gonna do
this the right way. And I think that getting those
guys together. Individually, they they've had decent careers, but collectively together,
they were really damn good together. And I think that's
where that's where teams miss. I said this for years
(10:42):
about the Yankees. The Yankees were better individually from two
thousand and two to two thousand and five than they
were from ninety eight to two thousand and one.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That ninety two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Team, though, those groups would beat the living piss out
of you every single night. They grinded you to the bone.
They were super star or talent, but they had a
grinder mentality and they had belief. And that talent is great,
but you've got to have the right makeup too, And
I think that's where the doctors everybody beat.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
When they make you play a baseball game, they're gonna beat.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
You, yeah, And that's that's where Dave Roberts has been phenomenal.
I did TV a handful of years after the GM gig,
and so he was on every day. He's going to
be interviewed, and the team rarely got beat, you know
by decisively in almost every game. But he was such
is such a player's manager, and you know he respects
(11:35):
who they are and they know it and they give
that back to him.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I had Dusty Baker in a classes past semester on
sports leadership and somebody says, so, Dusk, you're known as
a player manager is a gooder bed and he says,
what else am I supposed to be? I'm not supposed
to be a player manager. I'm not supposed to be
for the players. I'm not supposed to help the players
realize they're their utmost talent and hold them accountable. Of course,
(12:03):
I'm a players man. I'm proud to be a players manager.
And that's Dave too. Dave has done phenomenal because Dave
has only downside every year because they are supposed to
win the World Series every year. So it's not like he's,
you know, the guy coming from you know, behind the
(12:24):
pack and gonna surprise somebody. Nope, you got to be
on it every day, and as you know, that's not easy.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
You're getting everybody's a game every single night, Yes Wednesdays,
you're getting everybody's It's like I played for the Yankees.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
They're like, it's like, you know, they.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Didn't hear if the fans didn't know the name of
the pitcher and he's a rookie. I'm like, well, that
rookie might have been Max Schurzer.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You had their pitch for twenty five years. I'm like,
you guys don't have to face him. We do that.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I go, I don't care how young he is. His
stuff's nasty. So they didn't want to hear that. And
that's that's but that's the reality that it's. I always
say this, it's easier to be the chaser than the chase.
You don't get a chance to extail. You get everybody's
ech every single night. It's a different animal. And we
(13:12):
talked about the Rockies and the White Sox. I feel
like organizations that have trouble. And I said this for years.
When I was in the Minnesota Twins. An example, We're
chasing home runs when the game was coming back into
our lap, meaning like I go, we're trying to be
someone we're not and if we want to, because it
goes back to what we said earlier, I stepped out
on the field my first day as a manager of
the Twins, and I'm like, what are we what are
(13:33):
we good at?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Like, I don't see it. I don't we used to.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Be paying defense, base running, timely hit, smart base running.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I'm like, I don't see what we're good at.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And I remember our strength coach at the ORG meetings
came up and gave all of our scouts. I thought
this was brilliant, and I give the guy a ton
of credit. Dax Fiori. He's a he's a you know,
he's a regular just a regular strength coach that he
was in Lakeland for almost eight years, and he was
with me for four or five years.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
He's for twenty years.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Anyway, he went in and gave everybody, every scout a
piece of paper and he said, I want you to
write down for each position the height, the perfect height,
perfect weight, perfect body comp, perfect whatever, and write it down.
So we did that and the Orger meetings and he
kind of went down and he goes, well, I'm looking
(14:20):
at your guys' ideal height, weight, body comp. He's like, then,
why are you drafting me a five foot seven third
baseman who's two hundred and forty pounds, like, if you
want this, go, we can do this, but we can't
turn that into Aaron Judge.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
It's just not gonna work. And I thought, and I
did it.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
You know it's it was a different perspective, but it's
also those guys mean something too, like we're all in
this together.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Going it makes sense. But that goes back to the
talking about organization to struggle.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
You know what you're gonna get if you draft accordingly
and you have I remember I said, please go draft
if you're when you miss back after before we had
the longer fifty rounds or whatever it was, I said
on those picks later, go get me college hitters who
are fifty to fifty walks to strikeouts. Go give me
(15:11):
equal or more walks than strikeouts. I don't care if
they have any power. I don't care. Give me a
couple each affiliate. Go find me a couple of guys
who have awareness of the strike zone.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's gonna teach.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Our superstars or our our prospects what it's like to
working at bat and what it's like to hit. Keep
staying the strike zone. And they're like, wow, the Cubs
did it for years. When THEO went over and I'm like,
see these guys have they are guys that are building
around their their future big leaguers who.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
These guys might be.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
But we all know that most organizations and most teams
are playing for one or two players on that on
that field for the big ones.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Right, go find me.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Those guys and get those guys to fill and if
you get you have that organization to have most of
those guys, we're gonna have a team that we're gonna
have really good players who understand what it means like
to stay in the strike zone as a hitter.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
No dope, no dope, key stuff. It's key, and the
game's gotten away from that. You know, there's a lot
of walks, strike out, home run. We hear that all
the time. You know, the manager strike zone, whether you're
throwing the ball or whether you're hitting. It's it changes
the game on and one want to oh world of difference,
one in two two and one World of difference. Know
(16:24):
what you're doing on on either side of it.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I wake up, I wake up in the middle of
the nights, still in col sweat with a one one count.
It's the truth, like it's because that's it's it's the
difference to be making twenty million or you know, you
move your ship out of your locker before a game.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Is bring training.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
It's this reality, It's the truth. So I want to
hear more about your Pepperdine stuff. I think this is
I'm intrigued as how hell from this? Like, what what exactly?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Give me? Give me a day in the life of
you at Pepperdine.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, I teach on Tuesday nights. I teach on Wednesday morning.
I've been there twenty now. They send me to London
every couple of years. I teach in London in the summertime.
What I teach is really sports leadership stuff, organizational sports culture.
I mentioned that this past semester I started a new
class on sports leadership. I had tremendous people come in
(17:18):
either zoom in or come in and talk about how
they've done, what they've done all sports, some of the
greatest leaders of all time. I teach the globalization of sport.
How did soccer and call soccer in this country football
in Europe? How did that become so big? How did
the EPL become maybe the most famous league in the world.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
How do you grow something It also has a business
tie to it too, because if you want to run
your own business, how do you expand it? How do
you make it where people outside of your hometown want
to do business with you? So I do that. I
teach on Tuesday night Wednesday night. They've been terrific to me.
I actually had an honorary doctor degree they gave me
two years ago, which which shocked me. When the guy
(18:03):
told me, I said, have you dialed the right number?
I gave the commencement speech and did that. It's been
a great, great blessing to me to be able to
give back and to help to help kids out. I
grew up in the garage in Chicago, wonderful parents. They
wanted me to go to college. I have a younger brother.
They knew nobody think about this in this day and age.
(18:25):
They knew nobody who'd ever gone to college. So I
had no roadmap, couldn't get in. Went to a JC
where Kirby Puckett went, and Lance Johnson a few other
guys tried in college outside of Chicago, and I just
kept working my way to it, and you know, it
was huge. But Pepperdine has been great.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I've good a chance to give.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Back perfect last question. I'm asking or I want your
comments and thoughts on kim In kim In.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I was so excited for her when she got to
the Marlins gig. We're with her for a long time.
I've known her entire career. She was with the Cubs,
I was with the Cubs, she was with the White
Sox when she first started. We'd being celly arbitration meetings together.
Really had done it all in the game player development,
(19:14):
all types of scouting, understood, people understood how to read people,
how to how to how to deal with all sorts
of different situations. And when when we worked together in
l A, there were probably two maybe three teams that
had called for permission to talk to her. I think
Seattle did, I'm not sure if Philly did. There there
(19:35):
was there was a handful that that did, and you know,
she'd come back disappointed, and I said, look, it's gonna
It's gonna happen at some point in time. So after
two or three of these, when people would call, I said,
don't just do this for the show, do this because
you're serious about it. If she if she she should
be a finalist today you're calling me for permission. She
(19:59):
should be a finalists today, So if she's in your
final three, I'll give her permission. If it's just for
show or you're just trying to learn who she is
or whatever, and it's kind of an informational interview, she's
done those.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
She don't need to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And you know, she stayed with it, and she did
a great job in Miami, and you know, I stay
in touch with her. We talked maybe once a year,
is twice a year, And you know, I'm not sure
when she'll be back, but I think that she'll be
back whenever she wants to be back.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
No disrespect to the gms and the front office people
that are currently there. It's a it's a travesty that
she's not in someone's front office right now. The game
needs I feel like the game needs her mind in
it at some point, at some capacity.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
To me, it's to me.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I know that she was only in Florida a brief time,
but to see and I live down here and to
watch this, it was a it was a definitely you
could tell. You could tell she was getting to what
the feel was there. And I always I stick up
for her all the time out that anybody ever says
anything bad about her, But like I just always had
the utmost respect for the conversations we've had. We do
(21:08):
text occasionally. I'm trying to get her on the show
because I want to hear her journey. I think I
think it's something that more women would love to hear.
I think people in general would love to hear the
fact that she kept her nose down and she kept
doing her job and just kept fighting.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And my goodness, gracious.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
When, like I said, when someone it's gonna take take
someone to finally stick their nose out to say, hey,
you know what, I don't care man and woman whatever.
She's really really good at what she does and she
doesn't take any bs. And I was blown away, And
I have the utmost respect for her, and I think
she's one of the one of the better baseball minds
I've ever been a fortunate be around.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And the game is at a disservice when she's not
in it.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
She's she's terrific. If you went back to the White Sox,
the Yankees, the Dodgers, major League Baseball, and the Marlins,
and as somebody who knew what you were talking about
and paid attention and you brought her name up, they
would all rave. They would all rave about her. That's
that's who she is. And it's tough to do that
(22:09):
in this game, but but she is.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
She started.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Wish her nothing but the best. In any place she is,
they're better for.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It, absolutely doubt.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
And I've better understanding of the game from the brief
conversations we've had in the past. And like I said,
I I would love to see her get back there.
And not only I always look at now a different,
different perspective. I would love to work for her, just
because you know, there's there's a it takes it and
I get it.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It goes back in the Director of Baseball Operations when
I was going with this.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
It takes a special it takes a special personality to
deal with all these different parts and people with it.
And and that's the part that I've learned over time
as the manager. I came in young, hot headed and
wanted to make the difference. But I understand it now
more than ever, of the dynamic of we're all in
this together. And I feel like in these organizations that
(23:08):
don't have the continuity the play shows, it's just when
you're constantly changing ideas and what you wanted to look like.
You just you just as a dog, you chase your
tail and you run in place for could be years,
decades if you don't get someone and stick with it.
That it's not always fire everybody and start over, because
(23:28):
now you're starting over from score one all over again.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
And it's not that easy to do in this and
any and any sport levelone baseball.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I mean, you're you're in Florida. When's the last good
Marlin team? Her team was the one before that, Donnie got.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Donnie got made the playoffs at the COVID year.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
But but you're talking about you know, her year was
like over like her and Donnie's teams. But go back
where where's you're talking about two people that work together
before New York, La Florida. When these people keep popping
up and keep winning, it's not it's not a coincidence.
(24:10):
It's not a co And then I just I just
I wish you'd still be there. I know it, I
don't know all of it, but I said, I was
actually super excited. I haven't been to a mar I
never went to a Marlins game until she was the gym,
and I was I was, and I wanted to see
her when I was there, I.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Didn't get a chance to she was a little busy
with right around the deadline. But oh man, I can't
thank you enough for this, Oh pleasure, or you're not
gonna be alone.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It's not gonna be the only time when you get
on this because I'm sure something's gonna happen in the future,
or we'll just keep grinding it out.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
But uh man, this is awesome. I love this.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Thank you, Thank you for thinking to me, and thank
you for having me on anytime. Doug of course, always
root for you.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
That's going to wrap up this edition of the Dugout
Podcast with me and your host, Doug mn Kavich. Can't
thank Ned Kaletti enough. Holy moly, is there something this
man hasn't done. Look looking forward to more episodes with
Ned and like us subscribe anywhere you find your podcast Apple, Spotify,
check us out The Dugout Podcast. Till next week, we'll
(25:11):
be seeing you
There's so many factors into all of that. You know,
once in a while, when a player would get suspended
for a game or two, I said, hey, if you
want to sit upstairs with me, you're welcome to do it.
And you know, probably once a year somebody would take
me up on the offer and sit next to me
during a game. And at the end, I said, so, so,
you know, how was your knight and they said, I'm exhausted.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Absolutely know.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
It's like the amount of things that you're going through
and thinking about people like whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I wish I knew that when you guys signed him.
I brought Jim Tobi over. I could have sat the
whole time up there. I could have watched the playoff
from up there. Yeah no, but.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It's crazy to me to think of people think, oh,
he's got only got this to do. And I remember Terry,
even Terry Ryan would he was everywhere he wanted to
be more in the minor leagues. Then I saw Terry
more as a minor league player that I did a
big league player.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
And it was.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Almost to the point where I and I don't mean
just me, I mean me aj Prazinski, uh Tory Hunter
when we got in the big leagues, we were like, Terry, like,
where are you? Like, now we're in the big leagues
and now we're actually working for.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You and we never see you. We just want to
be seen.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Like come walk from the clubhouse like that's not my
clubhouse and go I go, bs, this is your clubhouse,
Like like.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We're we're like your kids, man, like we want we
want to see you. We want to do this.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
At the time, it was like a bash against Tom
Kelly because we all wanted to We all love Terry.
We had problem with TK not knowing we're just young
and stupid. But like the thought was like, hey, I
want you to be visible. So when I moved around,
I'm very lucky to play for a hell a lot
of really good gms and and you're one of them obviously,
but you were seeing And I think that means something
like we felt like.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Being older as a player helps.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
But I felt like when I when we all were
on the same page and it wasn't us against.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Them, was a huge factor. And I think some places
kind of go through that.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, well I never want and I read with and Terry,
by the way, was one of the greats to me
and somebody who really loved the development of players was
really in that realm. My view and I share the
same view as far as you know. It wasn't my clubhouse.
It's the players clubhouse. But I always was.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I was around.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I probably walked through it four times a week, five
times a week, I think, you know. I was almost
on every road trip. So people if they had something
they could come and see me. They had an issue,
they could. They knew they weren't going to have to
wait a week or two weeks to ferret it out.
And at the same time, if I needed to talk
to somebody, I knew what their days were like, I could.
I could catch them in the food room, I catch
(02:41):
them in the hallway and say, hey, I got to
talk to you for two minutes, you know, because it
was important to have that type of communication.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It goes into like I also brought up I kind
of want to bring up the Rockies and the White Sox,
some teams that aren't doing so great right now. But
I think it ties into this what I'm talking about.
I took a lot of things, and I loved a
lot of things. I remember correct, I don't remember his
first name, Hines but he was your field coordinator. I
can called him Jeter, and I remember he called me
and we got off on the wrong foot. Imagine that
(03:09):
He's like, call me Jeter, and I'm like, I'm not
calling you Jeter. I played with the Jeter and that's
I'm just I did not go to disrespect the man
that I played next to. And that's how we got started.
And by the time by the end of instruction league,
I was like, you're the best ever. Like I remember, adamly,
I've used several things and I'll give you two of them.
(03:30):
The sunglasses on the hat don't block the emblem. I
love it like, I love that like And he got
the guys up and he made him take their glasses
off and he made him make eye contact.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
This is instruction league.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And I thought, and the other thing that I really
do and I still do it to this day. He
would make guys an instructional league. He would make them
go with whoever. It was like, I'll use a twins example.
We had a shortstop. Oh, I made them. I made
him go google Greg Gagney because he probably didn't know
who he was. I'm like, go google Greg Gagney and
give me I want four things on Greg you found
(04:01):
and why do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Why do you think I used him?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Mary Wells was another one with we had a couple
of fast guys. Donald Sweeney I think was there and
and he made them get he made them google. Marie
Wells like, why is he important? And I think it
ties into you. You love the uniform you're in, you
respect the uniform you're in, but you also you pass
the torch so you understand the history of where you're playing.
(04:24):
And I thought that was brilliant and I think especially
in I think every organization needs.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That, but especially the story ones the Dodgers.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
No doubt. You know. One of the classes I teach
at Pepperdinas on sports organizational cultures and and how some
teams sustain success every year they're in it. They don't
win the World Series every year or NBA title or
Stanley Cup or a super Bowl, but every year they've
got a chance. What are some of their qualities? And
(04:54):
you just touched on one of the most important qualities
that they all have, the veterans and those who have come.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Before their goal.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And it's really the All Blacks rugby team out of
New Zealand that believes this and talks about it. You
leave the jersey in a better place, and you care
where it goes, and you care who wheres it next.
And when people care, when people know that you're part
of this, it's a huge thing. So it's it's a
(05:24):
big deal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Like the culture thing.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Talk about that, it's a word that I think it's
like sometimes it gets thrown around and it doesn't have
enough meaning to it. But I'm down here in South Florida,
the Miami Heat. They're not great right now, but like
you look at their culture, like they get more out
of less than any in the NBA. And when you
have Alonso Morning, who's in the front office. Pat Riley's
(05:47):
still at eighty something whatever, seventy eight years old. Still,
I mean, he'll still back you down on the court.
Donnas Haslin. People were wondering why he's on the bench
for thirteen years when he didn't play them, like there's
a reason, Like those guys matter, and I'm like, that's
that's the that's pass into the torch of how we
do things. And I remember, it's funny I got hired
back by the Twins because they they brought us, some
(06:09):
of us back to be like, I want you to
tell us when we're doing things that we didn't do
when you were a player, And yet I would point
it out and I would get kind of pointed out
a little bit, and they didn't like it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm like, but this is.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
What like, I know how we left this place. We
were plugging play when I left. That's how we survived
as a small market. We're plugging play and the next
guy up play plugging right in might be a little better,
it might be a little worse in some aspect, but
where our organization is deep to where are we teach
it from the word jump, We draft accordingly and we
(06:40):
just keep keep the line moving and it ties into
where I see. For me, I see teams like the
White Sox and see teams like the Rockies. I know
when I managed and from a ball all of the
Triple A. And I'm not knocking them, but it's like, why,
like you would watch these guys and you would see
what they would call their prospects.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I'm going, I don't understand this. You don't.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And I've asked the question every time when I would
get hired, what what are we good at?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
What are we what are we trying to accomplish exactly,
go ahead, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Mean who are we? What is our what is our
style of play? What are who are we?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
What are we.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Trying to have? You know, the game is you know,
I'm old enough to remember nineteen ninety four in the
World Series getting canceled, okay, And it was about parody.
It was about giving smaller market teams a chance. It
was the advent of revenue sharing which came out of that,
a lockout strike.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It was.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
It was those types of things. And now you look
at it and it's the moat is farther apart than
it's ever been. And you got the Rockets. I don't
think they've won ten games yet, you know, and we're
halfway through the month of May. We know what the
White Sox went through a year ago. You know, I
don't know that that's good for How is that good
for the game. At the same time, you know, and
(08:00):
I don't want to pick on any organization, and you know,
I'm close with the Dodgers. Organizations still worth their almost
twenty years. You know, think about where they draft other
team Almost every other team is going to pick ahead.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Of them in every round.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And where are the players. Where are the players top.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I've said it for years, like everybody about the Yankees
for how long in the eighties and nineties, in two thousands, Right,
they're picking number twenty.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Eight twenty every year. They're not being the.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Best guy every They're not. And but yes, they have
the money, they have the ability to make a mistake.
And even like the Dodgers last year, I remember watching
the game the World Series games on TV, I'm going, man,
the guys that are hurt are better than the guys
are on the field, and they're in the World Series.
And that's the scary part. But it's not about even
(08:54):
about and I always say this too. Money doesn't mean
you're going to pick the right people. They get the
right people. Doc. I think is doesn't get anywhere near
the credit he deserves because he knows. I learned so
much from from Dave Roberts as a teammate and the
little time I spent with him in Boston, and I
totally understand why those guys it's not easy to get
(09:17):
some to get a group of men to run through
a burning building every single night for you, And you
can tell that there's more to this. There's more to
this than just he did he pull the guy on
the sixth inning. No, he those guys trust him, they
believe in him, and he cares about them. You can
still And I fought that in Minnesota, I cared too
(09:37):
much about the players. But I go, that's not a
bad thing. I said, I know, I know. I used
to remember Miguel sa No, I'll never forget this. I
would just give a look. I had the same kids
for two and a half years. I had Miguel Sino,
Max Kepler, Polanco, Buxton, Burrios, the list goes on, and
I would come in the dugout and I would just
(09:58):
give him a look. And bigelso Noo would come up
and down the doug going, hey, hefe no happy, And
I'm like, he knew, like I'm about to I'm about
to unleash some hell on you guys if you guys
days don't step up. And it was I was harder
on them because I knew they had the talent, and
I knew what they were going to become, and I
knew that they had an obligation to where they had
(10:19):
to bring. You're the next wave that's going to bring
respectability back from Minnesota and I'll be damned if you're
going to be part of me, because I was part
of that. We're gonna do this, and we're gonna do
this the right way. And I think that getting those
guys together. Individually, they they've had decent careers, but collectively together,
they were really damn good together. And I think that's
where that's where teams miss. I said this for years
(10:42):
about the Yankees. The Yankees were better individually from two
thousand and two to two thousand and five than they
were from ninety eight to two thousand and one.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That ninety two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Team, though, those groups would beat the living piss out
of you every single night. They grinded you to the bone.
They were super star or talent, but they had a
grinder mentality and they had belief. And that talent is great,
but you've got to have the right makeup too, And
I think that's where the doctors everybody beat.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
When they make you play a baseball game, they're gonna beat.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
You, yeah, And that's that's where Dave Roberts has been phenomenal.
I did TV a handful of years after the GM gig,
and so he was on every day. He's going to
be interviewed, and the team rarely got beat, you know
by decisively in almost every game. But he was such
is such a player's manager, and you know he respects
(11:35):
who they are and they know it and they give
that back to him.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I had Dusty Baker in a classes past semester on
sports leadership and somebody says, so, Dusk, you're known as
a player manager is a gooder bed and he says,
what else am I supposed to be? I'm not supposed
to be a player manager. I'm not supposed to be
for the players. I'm not supposed to help the players
realize they're their utmost talent and hold them accountable. Of course,
(12:03):
I'm a players man. I'm proud to be a players manager.
And that's Dave too. Dave has done phenomenal because Dave
has only downside every year because they are supposed to
win the World Series every year. So it's not like he's,
you know, the guy coming from you know, behind the
(12:24):
pack and gonna surprise somebody. Nope, you got to be
on it every day, and as you know, that's not easy.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
You're getting everybody's a game every single night, Yes Wednesdays,
you're getting everybody's It's like I played for the Yankees.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
They're like, it's like, you know, they.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Didn't hear if the fans didn't know the name of
the pitcher and he's a rookie. I'm like, well, that
rookie might have been Max Schurzer.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You had their pitch for twenty five years. I'm like,
you guys don't have to face him. We do that.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I go, I don't care how young he is. His
stuff's nasty. So they didn't want to hear that. And
that's that's but that's the reality that it's. I always
say this, it's easier to be the chaser than the chase.
You don't get a chance to extail. You get everybody's
ech every single night. It's a different animal. And we
(13:12):
talked about the Rockies and the White Sox. I feel
like organizations that have trouble. And I said this for years.
When I was in the Minnesota Twins. An example, We're
chasing home runs when the game was coming back into
our lap, meaning like I go, we're trying to be
someone we're not and if we want to, because it
goes back to what we said earlier, I stepped out
on the field my first day as a manager of
the Twins, and I'm like, what are we what are
(13:33):
we good at?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Like, I don't see it. I don't we used to.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Be paying defense, base running, timely hit, smart base running.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I'm like, I don't see what we're good at.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And I remember our strength coach at the ORG meetings
came up and gave all of our scouts. I thought
this was brilliant, and I give the guy a ton
of credit. Dax Fiori. He's a he's a you know,
he's a regular just a regular strength coach that he
was in Lakeland for almost eight years, and he was
with me for four or five years.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
He's for twenty years.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Anyway, he went in and gave everybody, every scout a
piece of paper and he said, I want you to
write down for each position the height, the perfect height,
perfect weight, perfect body comp, perfect whatever, and write it down.
So we did that and the Orger meetings and he
kind of went down and he goes, well, I'm looking
(14:20):
at your guys' ideal height, weight, body comp. He's like, then,
why are you drafting me a five foot seven third
baseman who's two hundred and forty pounds, like, if you
want this, go, we can do this, but we can't
turn that into Aaron Judge.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
It's just not gonna work. And I thought, and I
did it.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
You know it's it was a different perspective, but it's
also those guys mean something too, like we're all in
this together.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Going it makes sense. But that goes back to the
talking about organization to struggle.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
You know what you're gonna get if you draft accordingly
and you have I remember I said, please go draft
if you're when you miss back after before we had
the longer fifty rounds or whatever it was, I said
on those picks later, go get me college hitters who
are fifty to fifty walks to strikeouts. Go give me
(15:11):
equal or more walks than strikeouts. I don't care if
they have any power. I don't care. Give me a
couple each affiliate. Go find me a couple of guys
who have awareness of the strike zone.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's gonna teach.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Our superstars or our our prospects what it's like to
working at bat and what it's like to hit. Keep
staying the strike zone. And they're like, wow, the Cubs
did it for years. When THEO went over and I'm like,
see these guys have they are guys that are building
around their their future big leaguers who.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
These guys might be.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
But we all know that most organizations and most teams
are playing for one or two players on that on
that field for the big ones.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Right, go find me.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Those guys and get those guys to fill and if
you get you have that organization to have most of
those guys, we're gonna have a team that we're gonna
have really good players who understand what it means like
to stay in the strike zone as a hitter.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
No dope, no dope, key stuff. It's key, and the
game's gotten away from that. You know, there's a lot
of walks, strike out, home run. We hear that all
the time. You know, the manager strike zone, whether you're
throwing the ball or whether you're hitting. It's it changes
the game on and one want to oh world of difference,
one in two two and one World of difference. Know
(16:24):
what you're doing on on either side of it.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I wake up, I wake up in the middle of
the nights, still in col sweat with a one one count.
It's the truth, like it's because that's it's it's the
difference to be making twenty million or you know, you
move your ship out of your locker before a game.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Is bring training.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
It's this reality, It's the truth. So I want to
hear more about your Pepperdine stuff. I think this is
I'm intrigued as how hell from this? Like, what what exactly?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Give me? Give me a day in the life of
you at Pepperdine.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, I teach on Tuesday nights. I teach on Wednesday morning.
I've been there twenty now. They send me to London
every couple of years. I teach in London in the summertime.
What I teach is really sports leadership stuff, organizational sports culture.
I mentioned that this past semester I started a new
class on sports leadership. I had tremendous people come in
(17:18):
either zoom in or come in and talk about how
they've done, what they've done all sports, some of the
greatest leaders of all time. I teach the globalization of sport.
How did soccer and call soccer in this country football
in Europe? How did that become so big? How did
the EPL become maybe the most famous league in the world.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
How do you grow something It also has a business
tie to it too, because if you want to run
your own business, how do you expand it? How do
you make it where people outside of your hometown want
to do business with you? So I do that. I
teach on Tuesday night Wednesday night. They've been terrific to me.
I actually had an honorary doctor degree they gave me
two years ago, which which shocked me. When the guy
(18:03):
told me, I said, have you dialed the right number?
I gave the commencement speech and did that. It's been
a great, great blessing to me to be able to
give back and to help to help kids out. I
grew up in the garage in Chicago, wonderful parents. They
wanted me to go to college. I have a younger brother.
They knew nobody think about this in this day and age.
(18:25):
They knew nobody who'd ever gone to college. So I
had no roadmap, couldn't get in. Went to a JC
where Kirby Puckett went, and Lance Johnson a few other
guys tried in college outside of Chicago, and I just
kept working my way to it, and you know, it
was huge. But Pepperdine has been great.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I've good a chance to give.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Back perfect last question. I'm asking or I want your
comments and thoughts on kim In kim In.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I was so excited for her when she got to
the Marlins gig. We're with her for a long time.
I've known her entire career. She was with the Cubs,
I was with the Cubs, she was with the White
Sox when she first started. We'd being celly arbitration meetings together.
Really had done it all in the game player development,
(19:14):
all types of scouting, understood, people understood how to read people,
how to how to how to deal with all sorts
of different situations. And when when we worked together in
l A, there were probably two maybe three teams that
had called for permission to talk to her. I think
Seattle did, I'm not sure if Philly did. There there
(19:35):
was there was a handful that that did, and you know,
she'd come back disappointed, and I said, look, it's gonna
It's gonna happen at some point in time. So after
two or three of these, when people would call, I said,
don't just do this for the show, do this because
you're serious about it. If she if she she should
be a finalist today you're calling me for permission. She
(19:59):
should be a finalists today, So if she's in your
final three, I'll give her permission. If it's just for
show or you're just trying to learn who she is
or whatever, and it's kind of an informational interview, she's
done those.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
She don't need to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And you know, she stayed with it, and she did
a great job in Miami, and you know, I stay
in touch with her. We talked maybe once a year,
is twice a year, And you know, I'm not sure
when she'll be back, but I think that she'll be
back whenever she wants to be back.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
No disrespect to the gms and the front office people
that are currently there. It's a it's a travesty that
she's not in someone's front office right now. The game
needs I feel like the game needs her mind in
it at some point, at some capacity.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
To me, it's to me.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I know that she was only in Florida a brief time,
but to see and I live down here and to
watch this, it was a it was a definitely you
could tell. You could tell she was getting to what
the feel was there. And I always I stick up
for her all the time out that anybody ever says
anything bad about her, But like I just always had
the utmost respect for the conversations we've had. We do
(21:08):
text occasionally. I'm trying to get her on the show
because I want to hear her journey. I think I
think it's something that more women would love to hear.
I think people in general would love to hear the
fact that she kept her nose down and she kept
doing her job and just kept fighting.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And my goodness, gracious.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
When, like I said, when someone it's gonna take take
someone to finally stick their nose out to say, hey,
you know what, I don't care man and woman whatever.
She's really really good at what she does and she
doesn't take any bs. And I was blown away, And
I have the utmost respect for her, and I think
she's one of the one of the better baseball minds
I've ever been a fortunate be around.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And the game is at a disservice when she's not
in it.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
She's she's terrific. If you went back to the White Sox,
the Yankees, the Dodgers, major League Baseball, and the Marlins,
and as somebody who knew what you were talking about
and paid attention and you brought her name up, they
would all rave. They would all rave about her. That's
that's who she is. And it's tough to do that
(22:09):
in this game, but but she is.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
She started.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Wish her nothing but the best. In any place she is,
they're better for.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
It, absolutely doubt.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
And I've better understanding of the game from the brief
conversations we've had in the past. And like I said,
I I would love to see her get back there.
And not only I always look at now a different,
different perspective. I would love to work for her, just
because you know, there's there's a it takes it and
I get it.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It goes back in the Director of Baseball Operations when
I was going with this.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
It takes a special it takes a special personality to
deal with all these different parts and people with it.
And and that's the part that I've learned over time
as the manager. I came in young, hot headed and
wanted to make the difference. But I understand it now
more than ever, of the dynamic of we're all in
this together. And I feel like in these organizations that
(23:08):
don't have the continuity the play shows, it's just when
you're constantly changing ideas and what you wanted to look like.
You just you just as a dog, you chase your
tail and you run in place for could be years,
decades if you don't get someone and stick with it.
That it's not always fire everybody and start over, because
(23:28):
now you're starting over from score one all over again.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
And it's not that easy to do in this and
any and any sport levelone baseball.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I mean, you're you're in Florida. When's the last good
Marlin team? Her team was the one before that, Donnie got.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Donnie got made the playoffs at the COVID year.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
But but you're talking about you know, her year was
like over like her and Donnie's teams. But go back
where where's you're talking about two people that work together
before New York, La Florida. When these people keep popping
up and keep winning, it's not it's not a coincidence.
(24:10):
It's not a co And then I just I just
I wish you'd still be there. I know it, I
don't know all of it, but I said, I was
actually super excited. I haven't been to a mar I
never went to a Marlins game until she was the gym,
and I was I was, and I wanted to see
her when I was there, I.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Didn't get a chance to she was a little busy
with right around the deadline. But oh man, I can't
thank you enough for this, Oh pleasure, or you're not
gonna be alone.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It's not gonna be the only time when you get
on this because I'm sure something's gonna happen in the future,
or we'll just keep grinding it out.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
But uh man, this is awesome. I love this.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Thank you, Thank you for thinking to me, and thank
you for having me on anytime. Doug of course, always
root for you.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
That's going to wrap up this edition of the Dugout
Podcast with me and your host, Doug mn Kavich. Can't
thank Ned Kaletti enough. Holy moly, is there something this
man hasn't done. Look looking forward to more episodes with
Ned and like us subscribe anywhere you find your podcast Apple, Spotify,
check us out The Dugout Podcast. Till next week, we'll
(25:11):
be seeing you
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