The Eric Hosmer Episode

Doug is joined by fellow first baseman, World Series Champion, 4x Gold Glove winner, and his favorite player of this era—Eric Hosmer. The two chop it up on everything from torpedo bats to Jurickson Profar’s suspension, plus a ton of stories from Hosmer and Doug's time in the big leagues. A must-listen for baseball fans.

 

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back, boys and girls. I'm your host Douglan Kavage
of the Dugout Podcast. Today special guest read some accolades.
Went to American Heritage High School in two thousand and eight.
Was the third pick of the draft of the Kansas
City Royals.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
In eight.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
The Florida Baseball Player of the Year not once, but
twice by the Miami Herald played for the Kansas City Royals.
San Diego Padres, who was a member of the twenty
seventeen USA World Baseball Classic team. He currently is has
the most RBIs in postseason history for the Kansas City Royals.

(00:37):
Mister Clutch at bat, four time goal Glove winner, All
Star Game MVP has started Moonball Media and is now
the host of with Mike Mustakas the Digging Deep Podcast.
I like to welcome a fellow gangster first baseman, Eric Cosmer.

(01:02):
I want to welcome in my favorite player of his era,
Eric Cosmer, first baseman.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Welcome. Thank you for doing this.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
This this means the world to me because I said,
I'll give you a quick, little little nugget here. I
got called up as a manager. I want to say
it was like fifteen or fourteen and I never went
over to other players. I never went over to other
like I just left them alone. Even as a manager,
we played. I got called up for the Twins and
we were playing you guys in the Royals, and I said,
I've got to go meet this dude, and.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I went over.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I shook your hand and I literally didn't speak, but
like I literally was like, dude, I love the way
you go about your game. Everything you did, I was like,
that's what I want.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
I want.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
And I was managing a team at the time that
became the Twins big league team, and in our organizational
meetings the year before you guys want made the year
you made the playoffs, the first year made the World Series,
and then you won it the next year. They asked
me as an organization. They said, I had the GM
and the Minor League GM, basically sitting there like Doug,
if you could advise a team, what would you want
And I said, I want the Royals and they all

(02:04):
looked at me like I was crazy, and I said,
I said, here's why. They're all athletic as hell. They
all can go deep, and they all can score from
first on a double. And I said, you can't put
a price tag on that they're dangerous. I go, besides,
they have the arms. And every day I coach my
team with the Sinos, the Kepler's, Polanco's, Burrios, I would

(02:26):
tell them like, okay, I would not compare them, but
I'd be like, Okay, there's my there's my Lorenzo Kine,
there's my Haws, there's my Mustacus, like okay, so like,
and that was the idea. You guys did it the
way it was supposed to be done. And I, from
a far and from an older generation guy guy in
front of you, like, I just love the way you
guys played and I think you're a glue guy. And

(02:48):
that's something that always stuck with me.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Shit Dougy, Well, first of all, man, hearing you say
that is an honor man, because listen, not only were
you a successful big leaguer, but I mean this goes
all the way back to Miami and West Miss Christian
because obviously anybody successful in your area, you're going to
follow their career. And I got to watch you on TV.
I got to watch you on some of the show
squads is what we call it, some of the biggest
big time show squads. I mean the Boston Red Sox,

(03:13):
the Yankees, playing with some of these superstars, and you know,
you wore the pants up. You were picking it at first.
And just the fact that you said that alone, for
me individually is a tremendous honor. And then on the
team aspect, that group we had in Kansas City, man,
just like you said, we had such a tight knit
group and it was such a unique situation because of
us being a small market in Kansas City, and George

(03:34):
Brett and all those guys that were successful in Kansas
City as players on that eighty five team, that one
would always hang around us and we always took a
li likening to those guys, their mentality, how they were,
were passionate about posting every single day, playing through stuff,
just being tough mothers, you know what I mean. And
that's something that we all took pride in. So the

(03:54):
fact that you said that means the world to me
as an individual and for our group as a team.
Because being in a division, people know back then we
used to play three games or three series on the road,
three series at home. So Minnesota, we've we've seen you
guys plenty, So that's a nun or Dougie, thank you man. Start.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's funny you say that.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
I always try to play like Danny Hockey was big
for me, and like anybody can play the game when
you're healthy, like I looked forward to playing the game
banged up like I Guardy would bless bless his heart.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
He tried to protect me against myself.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'm like, I don't want to day off in April,
like I don't want to day off in July, like
I want to play through this, like my dad always said.
And John Russell, the manager I had all the way
up in the minor leagues, always told me never take
yourself out of the lineup. And John Russell would come
to me and be like, hey, how are you feeling today?

Speaker 2 (04:42):
I feel great.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
He goes, all right, go outside, open your car door
and slam your hand in the door and come back.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
He's like, well, you play better when you're banged up.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
And it made sense, like when you're sick, you don't
think about shit, You just kind of just get through
the game. And but like I said, going back to that,
like I told why before we got on the AAR,
I was like, the best compliment I ever got was
from the older generation. When they said you could have
played with us, and I was like that, that's when
I knew. That's when I knew, like I wasn't the

(05:09):
most talented, but like I could play with their generation
because like they get it. They understood like what I
meant and how I did it. And that's how I
saw when I watched you play it. I'm just like
I would sit there and be like in awe of
watching the way you guys. You can just watch that
group and go, you know what, they love going to work.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
And little and there's little things like you just said
that we really prided ourselves on. And I'll never forget
this story because we were in Boston and I'm facing Lester.
I think this is my second or third year in
the big leagues. And you know, my dad was a
firefighter City of Miami Station nine down there in Liberty City,
so I mean he has he's gone through some stuff,
and him and every all the boys at the fire

(05:48):
station were always on like toughness and if someone hits you,
get your back, get your ass back up, and little
know that shit didn't hurt whatever. So I'm facing Lester,
and Lester my first at bat buckles me with a curveball,
and I mean, this thing starts in my ear, Douggie,
and all of a sudden booms strike two, and I'm
like fuck. So I'm like, all right, if that thing
starts in my face, like I need to stay in there.
It's gonna be a breaking ball whatever. So I'm right here, Dougie.

(06:11):
All of a sudden, the ball starts in my face. Boom,
it's a fastball. It breaks, like breaks my third, fourth metacarpool,
whatever it was. So I go down and I'm like, shit, man.
I get to first and I'm like, I'm trying to
ring it out. I end up going in. I make
a coffee. I pour a little something in there to
try to take a pain away. Get through the game, whatever,
get through the game. Next series we go to Minnesota.

(06:35):
So we're in Minnesota, and i mean, Dougie, I'm grinding, man,
like my iPad. I'll never forget that morning fell off
my bed and I went to go pick it up
with my right hand. Couldn't even pick it up. But
I'm like, dude, it's fine. I'm gonna get through this.
It's gonna be three four days and I'm gonna be
you know, in the clear to start playing and feeling good.
So Paul Mallider was the first base coach, and I

(06:55):
get up there one at bat, and I mean, I
can't even hold the bat and it came to like
a some of through me, like a breaking ball, and
it was one of those where you had to hold
up the swing and the hand just gave out the check.
So yeah, gave out. So I get the first and
I'm rolling ground balls in between innings and Polly gets
out there and he's like, he's like, what the hell
are you doing. I'm like, what do you got, Polly.
He's like, You're not right. What the hell's going on

(07:16):
right now? I'm like, I'm good, Polly, it's just something
with my hand. Dude, something's messed up. I don't know
what the hell's going on. He goes, Hey, you're being
fucking stupid right now. He goes, you're you're hurt, you're injured,
You're not hurt. You need to get this shit checked out.
Sure enough, I went and got it checked out, got
an X ray, MRI found out the wrist was broken.
But the fact that Paul Mollitors said that to me,
and I'm like, Paul, you think I'm tough, right, Like

(07:37):
you see me trying to do this and he's like, yes, buddy,
but this is different. So little things like that, like
you were just saying, Oh, that shit means the world
to I remember.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Just looking at like Tory.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Tory Hunter had a like fluid in his knee all
the time, and Shannon Stewart battled some hamstrings, and I
remember like Guardy would try, bless his heart, to try
to give us a blow. And it was two thousand
and three when we wanted a division by like sixteen
or seventeen games and O two and everything was easy,
and three we all were banged up, and we were
like eight games back of the break, so we kind
of dug ourselves in our own hole. But that team

(08:08):
was banged up. At the end of the year, my
wrist was so bad I couldn't pick my nose. And
I remember we'd walk by the office and he'd have
the lineup up and if our names weren't in it, Aj,
God almighty, if AJ didn't catch thirty games in a row,
he had the ass. So it's like everybody would walk
by the lineup and we'd stop if our names weren't

(08:28):
in it. We'd rip it off the wall and throw
it at him, like, try it again. I go because
I can't look at my brother in the eye and
say that my wrist hurts worse than his back or
his ankle or his hamstring. So I was like, try
it again. We might not be one hundred percent, but
one through nine we're gonna grind your ass to the bone.
And if I'm going down, I'm going down with the
boys in my ship. And that's kind of how we

(08:49):
were raising, how we were brought up. So that's where
I saw, like I know, we talk about all the time,
like those teams that you guys had, like there were
so many similarities.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
You guys are more talented than we were. And you
finished it.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
And I said, the one thing also I also loved
was that your staff, your pitching staff, hat your back man,
like you guys, they came inside.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
An inch in the bullpen too, man and.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Dudes were coming like they sent a message immediately, like
our Tom Shelly and Ron Gardenhire were. We don't wait
till two hours nobody on we're doing. When you first
pitch at the inning, we're gonna let you know immediately,
like we don't like this shit.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
We ain't standing for it. So it was it was
beauty man.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Dude, this is so fucking cool, Dougie, I wish we
could do this out of the bar for hours and hours. So,
I mean, first of all, Salvador was our guy Perez
because it was Pedro graffall. He would come up, he
was the bench coach, and he would start creeping towards
Salve and he would be it was usually like when
we had an off day, because they wanted to parlay
that off day to get Salved the forty eight hours.

(09:46):
And as soon as Salve would see him start walking up,
he'd be.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Like, no, no no, no no no no no no no,
I know what this is. I fucking played today. I
played today, no, no, no no no. And then the
pitching the bullpen, Dougie. I can't tell you how many
times guys got to first base.

Speaker 5 (09:59):
And they were like hey man, and like fuck, I
don't know why our pictures are thrown in man, Like
you know that wasn't on purpose, right, like trying to
get me to tell our pictures, Like hey bro, one
of these guys and I'm like, dude.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Sorry about it.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Cool?

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I mean, like LaTroy Hawkins, j c Romero, Eddie Gardado,
those guys like you just had to like think, I
don't like it. Granted, we had our fights with ourselves.
I mean we are our spring training games. Like our
spring training where the pictures were wowing up. We hit
guys on purpose on our own team, just to rally
each other up, and that's kind of how we were.
But like we were a little different. But I think

(10:32):
like when you're that small market man, like you got
a chip on her shoulder right, like you're like, you
know what, I don't want to hear about you and
the Yankees and not all the other crap like we
put Like if you look back at our two thousand
and two team, like damn dude, Johan Santana was our
like middleman, Like that's prett damn good. Like there's some
dudes on there, so like that parlay is into Like
I listen to your George Brett stuff and the interview

(10:55):
you guys did with him, which was phomenal by the way,
if you don't check it out on Digging Deep, it
just the the different changes and the one thing that
you said that stuck out to me was when you
became the veteran guy, right, you were that younger guy
wasn't so accepted, like kind of maybe they weren't they
didn't know how to take it. But you're so right
when you and Moose said something about like how players

(11:17):
like when you came up there different, and I.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Said the same thing.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
I was seen and not heard, like I was scared
to say anything, and I I was very like I
was almost in all the younger guys that came up
a little bit of confidence because like that's that wasn't
me like I was, and it hurt my play and
I wish I could have done a little bit of both.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
But you said, you hit the nail on the head.
I want you to elaborate on him.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, I just feel like, so it's cool because now
my career is over, I've gotten to see it all
play through. And you know that George Brett interview episode
whatever you want to call it, I was. I literally
walked away after that, and I'm like, fuck, man, I
fucking sucked when I was younger, dude. Because the fact
that George, you know, like he told me a Moose
like I was in the case and you, like both

(12:01):
you guys just went to the other kids, you wouldn't
come into my cage. And George like he never realized
and I've gotten to tell him since and it's so cool.
It's like, George, man, you were George Brent, you know
how intimidating you were. Dude, Like, if I walked into
the cage, I'm gonna take ten swings. I can get
off ten of the best swings I can, and I'm
gonna walk out of there fielding like a piece of
shit because I don't think it's good enough for you. Man, Like,

(12:23):
I'm so intimidated by you. And George is like, Dude,
when have I ever showed any sort of intimidation or like,
don't come up to me type of attitude towards you?
And I'm like, dude, you're absolutely right you haven't. So
now going to San Diego, I'm signing, signing a big deal.
I'm playing with guys. Will Myers is the only guy
I've ever played with or against there maybe like hedges

(12:46):
against it, but other than that, I mean, it was
a young team. We had three guys that made the
team the year before on the Rule five draft, which
you know, Dougie, that just don't happen so it was different. Man,
these guys were young, so I almost was like, Fuck,
why aren't these guys coming up to me? I was
expecting them to come up to me. But I'm like, shit, man,
it's maybe the intimidation thing. Maybe they feel like I

(13:06):
got to keep my mouth shut. I'm gonna let him
do his thing, not say a word, not bother him.
So that's when I was like, man, I'm gonna learn
from that and go out of my way to be
like hey, man, Taz dude, like, hey, let's go. I
don't want to talk to you in the cage. Let's
go grab a beer, and then if you want to
talk hitting tomorrow, We're like, yeah, we're already there, man,
We're already. I've been sinking and we're doing that for
three or four weeks in the spring before we even

(13:26):
go out to the whole full season.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Right. Don Maddley was that guy for me.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
I had mad Only with the Yankees, and I had
him with the Dodgers, and he kind of got me
into coaching the same thing.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
I'm like Donnie, and it got to be.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Like where this is a funny story, So like we
would be in a dugout in New York, and you know,
he kind of took me. I had Kevin Long too,
So I had two of the greatest hitting coaches that
ever put. You know, get up every day and literally,
like Donnie and I would start talking about hitting and
like just blowing away at the things he would say,
and I'm like, you know, what's so great about you
is you don't ever say your presence is intimidating, but

(14:02):
the way you teach is not.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
I was always same thing, like, oh god, he must
think that sucked.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
But the funny thing is was we'd have plays like
I make a diving play in New York and like him,
he always.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Got an exit Joe Tory, and I'd walk by Joe.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
And like there's only one first basement in this dug
out that made that play. Like I just keep walking
and Donnie would just kind of smirk, and like Donnie
would come back and be like, yeah, but I'd make
that play on my feet.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
I don't have to dive. So that's that was like
kind of our banter back and forth.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
But you know, like that's that stuff is priceless that
we don't get it, Like that's that's that's you can't
put a price tag on that. I think today's game
gets away from that. Even in my even meyer you
could see like they were. They were like when I
first came up, that thirty three thirty four year old
veteran got a three or four year deal because they
need they knew the importance of what those guys brought.

(14:48):
It may not be the production they always thought, but
like even towards the end of my career, they were
weeding out the veteran guy to do that to where
I use that example, I'll never forget this. So I
lost out to Paul Malader for the Man Andrew's job,
for the Twins job, and like twenty thirteen, whenever he
got at fourteen, I was a finalist. I didn't get it.
I was crushed because those were my guys. Well's He

(15:09):
calls me one day, He's like, I can't get to
these kids, and I said, what's going on? And I
have those guys for three years. Long story short, Max
Kepler might have made a base running blunder. And I said, well,
I said, Molly, did you go talk to him? He goes, no,
I go, Molly, you're a veteran type manager where the
veteran guys don't need to be told. They just you

(15:29):
put the lineup out and you go, which I would
love now I go. But as a young guy go.
I bred these guys to when they made a mistake.
I would call over to him, be like, what did
you see? What'd you see? And then we talked about it,
I said, I said, Paul, those guys are going over
in the corner, worrying about whether you're going to send
them down or what, And I go, I go. You
ever heard the term wait till your father comes home?

(15:50):
Right as a kid, we all were petrified, scared shitless,
and then when dad came home, it wasn't so bad,
I said, Paul. Those guys are sitting down on the
end of the bench, scared to death of what you're thinking.
And then if you go down there and say something
to them, they're gonna realize it's not that bad. So like,
go talk to them. You're not a big vocal guy,
but these kids are dying for your appreciation, just to

(16:11):
know that you're alive, So go talk to them. And
it was a kind of that same similar thing about
what you just talked about, and it speaks volumes to
a younger guy.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
It does and that's where you know, Dougie. A lot
of the struggles I had in San Diego, the performance
on the field, it's like, I'm the first one to
hand up like I didn't perform the way I should
have because of what that contract was. And I'm the
first one to say that. But when I start to
look back on it, if there was things that I
could tweak, it was a lot of these things that
were happening inside the clubhouse, inside the dugout that I

(16:41):
was like, man, this is not fucking right, dude, Like,
this is not the right way to go about it.
I've won before. I know what winning looks like. I
went in high school. I won in the minor leagues,
all these little showcases you go to, like I got
a good rating, but I fucking won those tournaments too,
and I took pride in winning. So when I get
over there and I see stuff happening, first of all,
that role, that extra role, that veteran fourth outfielder, extra infielder,

(17:04):
a guy I would always tell those guys in San
Diego my first year, like John Jay, go get John
Jay as our fourth outfilter. Give him two million dollars.
He's our fourth outfielder. He knows he's gonna play on
certain days. He knows he's gonna play two three times
a week if that, But he knows his role. We
don't have three guys competing for the center field job
and then three guys that have three different friend groups

(17:25):
that don't like each other. So I think that role
is so big because, in my opinion, stuff like that
with Paully, him having like that chef shouldn't get to
the manager. That should go like, all right, he made
a mistake. Who's his veteran guy, what position group is
he in? And then who's the coach the assistant coach?
And then if the manager has to deal with it,
this shit should happen six seven times before the manager

(17:47):
finally steps in and says, hey, buddy, what do we
got to do to change this? And one of the
things that I just couldn't live with, man, is guys
like yourself. We had Wayne Kirby, we had Bobby Dickerson,
longtime minor league guy. These guys have been around professional
baseball as a player and coach for thirty forty years,
and a lot of the new gms it's a younger trend.
They want to do the analytical thing, and then it's

(18:09):
only natural it just live and die by the analytical thing,
because I do think there is a little bit there's
some value to it, but it's only natural for when
you get hired, like you or me would do, you
bring all your boys in. So all these young gms
started bringing all their young guys in, and these guys
started taking positions in the clubhouse as coaches. So we're
sitting there in a pregame meeting and Wayne Kirby's going

(18:31):
over outfield, He's going over alignment, He's going over this
guy whatever, blah blah blah. Then he goes to the
base running and literally right after he gets done and
walks out, there's a guy there that I played in
HIA with for three years. Didn't make a pass hya,
but he is now our base running coordinator call that
or whatever, and literally completely disrespects Kirby. And it's just like,

(18:55):
don't listen to what that guy got to say, like
this is what we have to do, and that I
would go through those little things every day and I'm like, hey, man,
like who the fuck do you think you are? Bro,
Like this guy have some fucking respect, you know what?
I mean, like, first of all, this is a collaboration.
We should all be pulling on the same rope here.
So honestly, Dougie, I would have literally like tried to
just not worry about that bullshit, just worry about getting

(19:18):
me and the guys ready to perform and play every
single night. But man, like that stuff to me just
drove me crazy. And part of the reason why I'm
doing this right now, like the same way you're doing.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Two two things that don't underestimate. We talked about this
off air. Don't underestimate your signing to San Diego. San
Diego is not where they are now without you going there.
You look at like your signing was like the Jason wresign,
like those like you have to get a You were
the first piece to give credibility to the padres.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Then all of a sudden, Manny wants to go there.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
You know, there's there's some there's there's reasons why you
got to start somewhere, And like, don't underestimate that signing,
that that you brought. You brought credibility to a place
that hadn't had it for a long time. So another
thing too, like it goes back to what we just
said managers wise like triple A.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Is he ready? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
I can't tell you what he's going to do when
the third deck kicks in and he's facing guys that
he has posters of in his room. I said, I
do know this. He's mastered the level I'm at now
and there's only one place to go and that's up.
So you expect me to have this crystal ball. I
can't tell you.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
There's a certain there's certain things. I've been saying this
with Caglioni, the young stud with the Royals. I'm like,
there's certain things that you have to mark off the
checklist to prove that you're a professional. I can be
a professional. I understand routine. I understand now I'm going
to go through ups and downs, boom, But then to
complete that development, man, there's certain things that you just

(20:45):
don't see in the big leagues that are in the
minor leagues. There's certain pitches, all that kind of things.
He needs to go through that in the big leagues
to learn. I'll never forget facing Corey Klueber. He threw
the nastiest East West tunneling to me, went cutter one
one cut her in on my hands. I get fouled off. Shit,
if I have one of those torpedo bats, now it
might have been a homer and up found them off

(21:07):
cutter and then one two he goes front door, two seam,
and I see the things start at my back hip
and I'm like, nah, I'm not swaying at that cutter.
And then the ball goes whoomp, strike three, and I go,
I have never seen a baseball do that. And that
was that next step of development that I could only
learn the big leagues. I wasn't learning in the minor.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
League, right, yeah, I said.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
When Bartolo Cologne learned the ninety nine mile hour two
seam bat my left handle and then came back over
the plane, I'm like, yeah, I'm done, Like I'm scared.
Like now you got cutter, cutter, two seamer back over.
I'm like, I'm gonna take them right in the belly
button because I'm gonna swing.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
I'm gonna killed. Killed. But speaking of torpedo bat.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Thoughts man, So okay, so first of all, I like
that finally something is getting back into the offensive side, right,
like it's correct offense. What I obviously it's like people
on the Internet are gonna make a way bigger deal
than what it is. Like this batently is autopilot. It's
just finding the ball and boom. Like it's not that,

(22:04):
But what I kind of compare it to is a
couple years ago in spring, I went to a golf fitting.
I just tried to get into golf, and I go
there and it's like they give you the club and
they just tell you just pull off your best swing.
And the guy just keeps telling you, don't change your swing,
keep the same swing, and he's changing the club head
to manipulate to whatever your swing's doing. So what I'm

(22:24):
thinking with this torpedo bat's going to be like, if
I'm a cutter, if I'm facing a righty cutter, lefty sinker,
a guy that's gonna jam me, Maybe I'm gonna try
this torpedo bat where the barrel's a little more towards
the handle and I can get something on the barrel
versus the end. So if you're my hitting coach and
it's like, how's we got a cutter guy here, let's
grab the torpedo bat, I'm like, okay, let me try
that out. And then if it's a standard four seam

(22:47):
sinker guy that I just destroy. It's like stick with
your normal two to seventy whatever it is. So I
can see it kind of being like like Dougie, you know,
hitting meetings. It's like, hey, guys, let's have nine different
clubs in there, because we need nine different swings at
these sinkers, all these different type of pitches. That's kind
of what I think the torpedo bat is trying to do.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
First thing, the first person I thought I was was
try face and Rivera like where the hell was that thing?
When I was like, is Rivera ought to put the
barrel right above my like top hand thumb. That's where
I hit every ball, Like so, like that makes total sense,
but like people are making such a huge deal out
about it. I'm like, first, number one, they did it
against some really average pitching. That's not candy kilt it. Secondly,

(23:28):
like these guys were good hitters before so, and my
only thought was like this is where the analytic people
get too much credit, Like, well, if you had a
real hitting coach, like we never got into the big
leagues if we got jammed all the time, and don't
make it sound like Bulbly got jammed all the time,
he still put up good numbers as young player. He's
up and coming, he's a good player, and like, yeah,
you changed, but like you saw it. Brucci has the

(23:50):
bat lab. They go to the lab, they put all
the strobs all over you guys, and they figure out
what's perfect for you. So like, don't act like this
is something that's so earth shattering. You know, we've been
talking about this for decades. So that's the part. Like
as soon as it comes from an analytic guy, it's
like world news. I'm like, hang on a second time out,
stop ring vent in the wheel, stop reinvent the wheel.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
And they're just making a new language, Dougie, Like it's
the same thing we've always talked about when we're in
the cage and it's like, hey, you know, let's let's
try and miss on top of it, like that's vertical ride.
It's just they're creating a sophisticated language for what we've
always talked about for years. And look, I'm not one
of these guys that like analytics is awful, don't do it.
I definitely think there's value to it. But like, at

(24:34):
the end of the day, we can't live and die
by it if we're trying to make changes, Like if
you're with Byron Buxton for a year and he wants
to make a big change, you go that off season,
maybe you can run some numbers analytically, because over the
course of one hundred and sixty two games this popped out.
So it's like, Okay, now Doug knows that information, how
can I translate this to Byron to get him to

(24:56):
what we're trying to do? Like it's crazy, Dougie, Like
I got to San Diego, and I don't mean to
bash on this, cause I don't want to sound like
I'm like talking shit about somebody, but like I get
into the cage coming off a year where I hit
three fifteen with twenty five and fucking whatever RBIs, and
the guy's in there and he's like, Okay, I want
you to get the ball pull side in the air.
That's what you need to do to be successful. And

(25:16):
I'm trying to buy in, which I probably should have
been a douche and been like, nah, man, I'm doing
my own thing. But it's like, man, like you keep
telling me it's so easy to get the ball pull
side in the air, but like, show me and teach
me how to do it, you know, like take me
on the field field three and set a machine up
and tell me to fucking hit balls over the first
base dugout, like just figure a drill out to translate

(25:37):
that to me. So that's where like I think the
miss uh, that's that's pretty god mix.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
Soh do you say that?

Speaker 1 (25:42):
I was always like, we got Minnesota, like we need
to hit more doubles and triples with meniscre position, Like, well, no.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Shit, I go. But I had a lot of bigle
get bats, a lot of bats in my life.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
I never went to the place that I need to
hit a triple here, never did it, So like, yes
there's a place for him, absolutely, But when like it
all goes back to two like you take, you take.
It's funny how I love the fact that boat you
won a World Series with Texas a couple of years.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Still it's like he.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Has the numbers, and who's in their front office a
bunch of ex players.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
HARRYS Young and Dayton Moore as his assistant who was
our general or in Kansas City.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
So like you're and Dayton was the first Dayton fired me,
which is awesome. I love Dayton shit, no way. Alar
Barry was my GM in Kansas City who signed me,
and then Alan got fired mid season they brought Dayton over.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
I was hurt or whatever, but the point.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Is like, yeah, I can take those numbers, but we've
we've had numbers for years.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
We just didn't over.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
I coached the I do some stuff with the eighteen
U national team and these kids are talking about vertical breaking.
Occasion was like, what like, if you gave me all
this information now, I would like guys that play with
you would know. I'd be a mental midget worse than
I already was. When I was being mental, fitting goes
like I couldn't There's no way I could clear the
brain to do this stuff.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's a lot.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
I go back to where my between my rookie year,
my my in two thousand and one, when I went
back and had a good year. I want to know
what the pitchers do, but I'm not coming off what
I do. And that's kind of where I made the change.
I made the change in the big ones. I was like,
you know what, screw it. If I'm going down, I'm
going down my way Because like Tom Kelly, bless his heart,
like he would tell us like we'd face a sinker

(27:24):
ball guy and he'd be like, you gott hit the
bottle left, so I would take like.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
The one oh sinker and flick it the other way.
And I'm like, did I really just wait forty five
minutes to get in that back to go do that
ship like I could?

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (27:35):
So like I was like, you know what, I know
what you do, but I'm not coming off what I do.
And I literally told our scouting guys, give me a
report on me for the last ten days and I'll
be able to cipher what's going on mechanically by how
they're attacking me.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
And that's kind of where and that's where numbers.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
I'm again, I'm all for them, but when it's that,
when it's the Bible and you won't even remotely listen
to me, like you.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Know, I had, I had? Uh really Castro.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Now's the twins with the Tigers first, and then it's like,
you know, he's he's having trouble the breaking balls. I go,
he's having trouble breaking balls because he's cheating to the
fastball that's make him. And he's like and they're like, no, no, no,
he's having trouble breakball was like, yes, there's a point
to that, though I've never seen the cheet of paper.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
Cure somebody, so Dale's no, You're so right. Dale swam
Swammer was Slamer, was the best. Oh man. He told
us so many stories about your guys. Four team man.
He was I fucking love Dale Man and Dale honestly
as a as a in the professional atmosphere, in the
big league atmosphere, Dale swam made the biggest impact on

(28:36):
me as a coach because me and Dale Man we
hit it off from day one, and I mean we
were watching footballs every Sunday Saturday together, going to the
hotel bar together, and I learned so much from Dale.
And Dale we had like a system when it came
to hitting, and it was like all right, man, like
you go up there and trust your shit, like you
see the guy good, boom, You're good. Then you get

(28:57):
a couple at bats off a guy and it's like Dale, like,
I can't see this, dude, man, I don't know what
I'm like, I'm not picking something up or I don't
know what the deal is whatever. Then it's like, okay,
let's go break it down a little bit. And Dale
would always find these tendencies of he would go to
the bat system. He would type in runners empty runners,
scoring position, and you even just said it. A lot
of these guys will print out sheets of Hey, this

(29:18):
is every pitch this guy's doing in the career, and
Dale's like, why the fuck do I want that? Let
me go to the last ten days, the last month,
because these guys make adjustments, and you can learn the
adjustments on the way. So we got to a game
one time and it was Houston Street, dude and Dale swaying.
We're sitting there, we're literally just like football's on in
the background and we're boom going through the computer and
Dale goes, look at this shit man. And we both

(29:40):
were fantasy football like gurus and we tried to find
all the information or whatnot. So Dale goes, look, bro,
this guy, first of all, face is empty versus scoring position.
He's got four pitches, and then all of a sudden,
runns the scoring position. He's got two. So that tells
you alone what his two best pitches are. And then
you start breaking down some counts and it's like, Houston
one was one hundred percent change ups. It was like one, one,

(30:04):
two two, and it was over his last like thirty pitches.
So if this is a guy that I'm not having
success off of my first four or five at bats,
fuck yeah, I'm gonna go up there and say, hey,
one to one, let's get to that count and then boom,
let's try and just sit on change up. And I
started taking that approach of like, okay, I gave it
four or five at bats, I'm not seeing it. Well,
let's go to break it down now and see kind

(30:26):
of the Dale swam system and how we can boom
boom boom go. It's not just numbers right out of
the gate, right in your face.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
You know.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
The two best I had at that Paul Mahler scouted
the A's in two thousand and two for us when
we were going in mind you, we never beat Mudson, Hudson,
Mulder or Zito. We never beat either one of those
three guys. Polly goes and scouts him. We I was
probably oer for eleven with like nine punch ups against

(30:54):
Tim Hudson. I mean just everything was backwards. Paul broke
it down just like you said, it was like two
ones an automatic take count one to one, take three
to one is like is the best hitting count. I
swear to it's like one two, he'll come at you.
And he dissected his count for count, and from that
playoff series, I think I think a homer off them

(31:15):
in Game one and after that it was like he
went from a dude I would never get a hit
off of ever again to a guy that I did
really well off of because of that exact stuff. And
like I goes into maadically too, like Paul and Donnie,
I wish I had Donnie earlier in my career as
a hitting coach. He gave you a way out facing

(31:37):
linsingimb right back in his hey day high fastball change
in the dirt. He goes, I don't He told us
in LA, I don't care if we swing through thirty
felt high fastballs. We are not going to raise our
sights up. We're not going to chase in the dirt.
And then he's like you. I'm like, damn, he's given
us an out right. So as a hitter, you're like, wow,
that's great. If I chase this, he's not gonna be like,

(31:57):
what are you doing? Right, He's like, We're not gonna
chase down, We're going to chase up Mike sweet because
he knew we had enough pop on that team. But
if Lynskin missed it by a ball down, we're trotting right.
So and we never like we didn't really no one
beat Linse. We just survived him, which was how you
did with Pedro and everybody else. You survived him to
get to the pen. But I was like, damn, Like,
here's one of the greatest players have ever put spikes

(32:20):
on as a coach and he's telling us like the
intricate stuff that can make us better, and like that,
I said, that's the stuff that I try to do.
And I was trying to explain to like, I understand
what you're giving me.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
I already see that.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
I already see that.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
I go, sometimes you're giving him too much, Like can't
we just what the days you make it with football
in the backyard and you're just trying to hit it
either trying to hit a line drop of your brother's
face or you're trying to hit knock the window out
across the street, and that the reality is that's the
game in a nutshell, right, So like why was getting
away from that? So that's like I said, I I've
loved your stuff I'm with it's like we share the

(32:57):
same brain.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
You do, man, And I feel bad your boy, wyatt Man,
because you might have to edit out a lot of
this because I feel like, dude, there's so many like
stories and things that pop up in my mind because
this is so fun.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Man, I want to do I want to do like
a watch party too.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
I'd love to have like a I want to do
a watch party where we watch games, especially the postseason.
I think that'd be great because there's a lot of
people that don't know what. Example, we had a rain
delay in Minnesota at spring training, and in spring training
there's a thousand kids there right and I'm like they're
like freaking out of what to do. I'm like, go go,
give me go put up on the in the auditorium,

(33:32):
a one to one count with a guy on first base,
and I can talk for forty five minutes on how
things changed from a throwover as a hitter, as a defender,
as a pitcher. Like that's the stuff they don't they
don't think about anymore because of the travel ball era.
They're just trying to showcase themselves and the base running
has gone to hell in a hand basket and all

(33:53):
that other stuff.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
So you know, yeah, that's the thing that I feel
like the problem of the fourth out fielder, the extra
infielder getting weeded out is the buy in, man, Like,
you have to have buy in from all your guys
and our offensive meetings in Kansas City, we had one
hundred percent buy in. I think that first Wildcard game
in fourteen, literally we're sitting there again, we got the

(34:16):
TV on there and we're clicking. Dale goes, Okay, check
the shit out. You know, Dale, he's not very he's stoic.
He's like, check this shit out. And it was twenty fourteen.
He goes, John Lester, this guy's best fucking pitcher in
the game, pitching the playoffs. Nobody better. Hasn't had a
pickoff a TEP since two and twenty and twelve. We're like,

(34:38):
what he goes, Fellas, the game is just to get
to first base. If we get to first base, we're
gonna win. And we're down seven to three in the
seventh inning. I don't give a fuck. The game is
still get to first base because boom, we're athletic. It's
a track meet. He's not gonna pick off. We just run,
so we won that wildcard game. We got to LA.
The next day we're facing Weaver and we get to

(34:58):
the Hitters meeting and we're like, all right now we
got and we're all about it. Man. It was so cool,
it really was.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
That's awesome. That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
All right, all right, we'll move into like let's go
into let's talk about your boy. Profar should say, boy, like,
what do you think? Like He'll give you my thoughts first.
I'll give you my thoughts first. For sure, I am like,
even through all of the era I was in, it's
never gonna stop because these guys get paid and until

(35:30):
they start pulling money away after, it's never gonna And
I'm talking about like commentation, like guys are on TV,
Like we keep throwing these guys back on TV, and
it's like, wait a minute, Like if you really want
to make a stance, if you really want to make
a change, you got to stop. Like I can go
on a list of a million guys and then and

(35:52):
I'm not hating on them, I'm just being it real,
Like I I feel like if you did that and
you got caught, I'm so sorry you got to give
it back because that's not who that's not what made
that money for you.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
And I know it's hard just like for you with
I have.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
You know from all the guys that I played with
that I consider friends that that got caught like it's
it's it's almost it's painful to me because the guys
that never tested positive get vilified more than the guys
that did test positive and gave you the bullshit.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah, yeah, And again I think we can go on
a while for this one, Dougie, because obviously, you know
steroids that is a performance enhancer, and yes, that is cheating.
That is cheating the game. That is at the highest
you know what I mean. There's a lot of pitchers
now using the substance that I'm real passionate about because yes,
I feel like that's cheating as well. I go from
facing these guys for four to five years and all

(36:46):
of a sudden, you come out in year six with
two new pitches and you're throwing five miles an hour
harder like that, shit's not right. It's not the same
as taking steroids, but I think it's enhancing performance. Yes,
profar Man. Like you said, Dougie, I think me and
you are pretty similar personality wise. Profar knows me, man,
and he knows that I'm a straight shooter. I would
say this to his face, exactly what I'm telling you,

(37:09):
And I love Profar. I Profar is one of my
best friends in the game. As a friend, I would
never quit on Profar or throw him to the side.
I will always be there for him, because, man, when
I got traded in San Diego and the whole Sodo
thing was happening, Profar was one of very many, a
very few guys on that roster that made him a
point to check up on me every day. Papa was

(37:29):
my nickname, Papa, You're doing good, man, Hey, how's everything
going all right? So that I could never like just
throw him to the side and be like, man, that's bullshit,
I'm off you. But as a professional athlete, as a
baseball player, as a teammate, what he did was wrong,
and I think he knows that. I think he regrets
taking that risk and now getting caught, and I think

(37:49):
now he finally realizes that shit, this is not right.
What I did wasn't right at all. So what I
will say, Dougie, and I'm not trying to, you know,
go on a campaign to get forgiveness for him. But
I saw a lot of the stuff behind the scenes.
I was with Profar. We were both struggling. Man. Profar
and I would be in the batting cage and literally
just be like, bro, I have tried so many different drills, stances, things.

(38:16):
I literally do not know how to swing a baseball bat, Like,
just tell me the basic act, like I'm five years old,
and tell me how to swing this baseball bat. We
bought into all the dumb shit, Dougie we had hitting
coaches that Mookie Betts worked with that turned to season around.
We flew that motherfucker out to San Diego. We're going
there at ten in the morning. We're trying to do

(38:36):
whatever we can to get right. And Profar found some
success with one of these guys he found. I guess
it's the thought process that it was like he would
hit with a basketball in his back shoulder and that
locked him in somehow, and that did not lock me in,
but it locked him in, and man, he started to
take off. So we started to kind of like get

(38:56):
a feel for it. And this was like right around
August September. So he then goes into the offseason and
obviously we're all a little older. It's not the same.
You're not bouncing back the same. So my and this
is just me thinking of it. I feel like Profar
had a confidence boost. He felt like he was really
like coming onto that swing, and I think he said, shit,

(39:17):
if I can go home and stay healthy and get
stronger with this new swing, I think I can come
back and do some damage. So again, Dougie, it is
not right what he did whatsoever. I think what got
in the way with pro is he wanted it so
bad and he wanted to continue so bad that he
just said, fuck it, man, I'm gonna take this risk.
And last thing, Dougie, I think you know some of

(39:38):
the guys that are born here in the States, and
I mean no disrespect by this at all. I hope
no one takes this the wrong way. My mother's from Cuba.
I mean I am you know whatever. So I think
guys in the States here, if you get caught with
steroids and it's a public thing, I think that's a
much more deal as far as like ego and like

(39:59):
tarnishing my career, and people in Miami are gonna be like, oh, man,
like everything you did for ten twelve years means nothing
like that shit, you're you cheated whatever. I don't think
other players from different countries really feel that same burden
that we feel. And to your point to close this
all out, because I know I'm going on here for

(40:19):
a while, I don't think the game will ever clean
up until you take away this guaranteed money, because like
you said, man, I think players older players have now
proven even if I have an eight, nine, ten year contract,
I'm still willing to do this to buy more years
on the back end. But if you've got seven years left, Dougie,
and you've got one hundred and sixty million dollars left

(40:40):
on that, there is no way in hell you're doing
anything to risk losing all that money. So that's the
only way we clean this shit up correct.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
And I always feel like the guys that get around
it are always two steps ahead of the testing, you
know what I mean, Like the testing is always lagging
behind it, you know, So they're never gonna they're never
gonna get ahead of this thing until ill until they
start yanking that stuff away. I mean, you know, like
I play with Alex in high school. I play with Alex,
and you know I've been known to be really hard

(41:09):
on him, and I just I find it hard to
believe a guy that got suspended for two years.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Is now commentating baseball games.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
I just it doesn't make sense to me, Like, it
just doesn't like if you really want to make a
stop of it, Like, and I'm not from this. I
have a glass house and I own you know, you
know I We all make mistakes. I understand that, but
when they go to the extreme of that, there has
to be a way.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
At some point you have to stop it. You have
to stop somewhere.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
And I and I feel a little differently about the
sticky stuff. Yes, it helps her stuff out, but I
would rather have a guy pitcher have sticky stuff on
his finger than throwing a marble and thirty degree weather
and he doesn't know where it's going.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
So there's a they if.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
They came up with the sticky stuff, they can come
up with something that's less sticky that we both agree on,
you know.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
So, And That's where I'm at with all that. It's tough.
I can get it.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
We're in a tough spot because these guys are our
our brothers, these guys are our friends, they're teammates. But
it's like, damn, man, like you were the greatest of
all time before you took this. Why is your ego
that bad that you can't just you know? And I
get it, and that's I understand it, Like you don't
want to be average, and that's what you said. A
perfect thing was all the guys that I knew that

(42:18):
took it back in the day talked about how great
they felt every day. And you know what more than
I do, as everybody else does playing in the big leagues,
trying to play one sixty. It's a grind, and your
playbas where you feel like you have the absolute flu
like you're about to be on your deathbed, and you
figure out a way to go do it, and that's
what separates you from the other people. But I was
just curious of your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
No, I got a couple more on that, man, because
you're so right that the game forgives these guys and
it brings them back in. And don't get me wrong,
I'm not saying the games should be like, hey, we're
quitting on you, but the game has shown that they
are welcoming these guys back with open arms. I mean,
the prime example is Houston Man look at Houston, they
went through their thing, they got the immunity. They all
had suspensions over the twenty twenty seeds in, which was

(43:00):
a joke. By the way, I don't know if you
had anything to do with that season, but it was
it was a joke. So it's like you look at
when those guys became free agents, and like every single team,
every fan base wanted those guys, Like fucking Bregman comes
into Boston. Yeah, I'm playing third base, Rafe, You're gonna
be our DH now. And don't get me wrong, like
I like Bregman. It's it's like I'm not trying to

(43:22):
throw shade at anybody, but it's like that's at the
end of the day what the game does. And the
thing with the pitching Dougie to where like a part
of me again like with the profar thing, he cheated.
It was wrong, but like part of me, there's a
little part of me that's not as disappointed because the
sticky situation. It was the pine tar, the Rosin, the

(43:44):
sunscreen Rosin, like we all know, you go to Colorado, man,
I'll never forget. I had a cut four from right
field and I threw that some bitch over the net
because this ball was it was it was a cue ball,
like you said, it was nothing with p Yeah, so
like yes, please, like if you if if Chris Sale
is going to snap some sliders, get your son screen,
do what you gotta do, and yeah, snap your slider.

(44:05):
The problem with the stuff was, Dougie, these guys were
getting stuff flown in from overseas. They were getting the
stuff that jockeys used to spray their thing to sit
on the horse. And what the problem I had was
you had guys that were one pitch relievers. They were
signed off of a slider to come in there and
throw a slider ninety six percent of the time, and

(44:27):
they just take this this sticky stuff and their slider
goes from the twenty eight hundred RPMs to thirty eight hundred.
And I don't know really what, like, I don't know
a lot of what that shit means, but I know
that's a huge difference. And that's the stuff where I'm like,
I know you, you, you, and you that you guys
have all gotten three four year contracts based off of

(44:48):
your metrics because of this sticky stuff. So a part
of me is like it's not the same as taking steroids.
But shit, you guys are fucking cheating as well.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
And none of them saw I saw like those kids
were they Most of those guys didn't even know what
to do with it. But like I was, like, they
picked the ball up and it stuck their fingers. I'm like, damn,
like I you can do some nasty shit with this,
you know. And I was, like you said, the rates
went up through the roof. And at the end of
the day, like they it's just like the steroid air

(45:18):
the gms and the owners. Thing knew new but like
and it goes into ties into the way the games
played today. Hitting wise, if you start paying I always
said this when I played. If you gave if you
were giving Billy Miller's of the world, the David x Steins,
if you gave them twenty million dollars, you can change
what players are trying to become. I don't blame the

(45:40):
players in today's era about being Everybody talks on the
Internet and all X and all that stuff about like
all the hitters aren't the same or the stuff's better
if you if you put an emphasis on hitting three hundred,
those guys are good enough to go do it, but
the industry is telling them they don't care, so why
would they. So, of course, argument is, well, hell if

(46:01):
we strugg out. One of the things I'm most proud
about in my career is I never struck out one
hundred times. I had a couple of years where I
had almost double the walks to strikeouts well, and my
power suffered from it.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
And I wasn't a power guy.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
But I go, if you allowed me to strike out
one hundred and eighty times a year, you're damn right
out ahead a more few more home runs, I go.
But that wasn't what the industry asked for. So to compare,
it's not the player's fault. They're giving the industry what
they're asking them for.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
So dude, that's so spot on, and just like, just.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Like the pitching, it's like, well, and that was my
biggest argument in Stereoter. I'm like, you can keep getting
on the hitters. I'm like, the pitchers outnumber the hitters
three to one. I saw you in the minor leagues.
Your shit was due to want a stick, and now
all of a sudden, it's ninety five with power breaking
ball like okay, top time out a.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
Second like exactly, like, dude, exactly, like you're walking around
here with your chest out like running shit out.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
You just got nine million, and I'm still struggling, like
what wait if we time out?

Speaker 4 (46:56):
Man?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Like stop?

Speaker 1 (46:57):
But that's that, and that's we're not bitter. We're just
telling like it is. There's a difference.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
Yes, that's what game, the game asked for. It. You're
so right, because I have a huge issue with guys
on TV that talk about certain things the game asked
for versus what the players are doing. Now. So all right,
I'm going to take you. There's a Hitters meeting in
San Diego again. I think this is in like twenty one,
and what I love about that is a Rise and

(47:22):
Stephen Kwan, their outliers, the bat speed tool, all that
kind of thing. But whatever, Yeah, the guy's unbelievable. So
we get to a Hitters meeting and it's in spring
training and I think it's raining one day. So we're
in there. It's like a classroom setting and we're all
just like, all right, let's roll through some scenarios and
see what we got. So it's this is it's a
first inning, zero zero game. It's Kershaw versus darbus. Two

(47:45):
aces on the mound, zero zero, A guy on third
the ball, first pitch, ooh, it's a ball, a ball
outside the zone? Who in here would want to swing
make contact? Let's say the result is a ground I'm
ball to shortstop. The run scores one nothing boom versus
who in here thinks that more value should be you

(48:08):
should lay off this pitch and it's ball one and
if he throws four more balls, you take your base
and go to first boom? Which scenario? Which what's more valuable?
So of course, like ninety percent of the room raises
their hand on the walk and I'm like, hold the phone, dude, Like,
what are we talking about here? Like this is Clayton Kershaw.
If we have an opportunity to score one run, we

(48:30):
got you, Darvish on our this is the one of
the baddest motherfuckers on the planet. I want this one
run so we can go up one nothing. So yes,
I'm taking that run. But think about it, Dougie, the industry,
what are they asking for? You go outside the zone
and chase, you get knocked for that. You get soft contact,
exit vel launch aangle, you get knocked for that. Metrically
RBI's is now considered semi lucky whatnot. So you're not

(48:54):
getting credit for the RBI versus not going outside the
zone to chase a walk is more valuable than a hit,
because if you laid out four bad pitches, that's sustainable
more than a ball getting through the three four hole.
So I'm like, dude, we have it all wrong. Like,
I completely understand if you got Hunter Renfro at the
plate and you just want him with nobody on and

(49:15):
no ow's to lock in on a certain zone and
with two strikes, maybe fuck the two strike approach because
he's gonna clog the bases up anyways and boom. But like,
as a team, how are we not buying into this scenario.
So that's where the divide came, as far as the
extra infielder and that you know, GM's for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
I have the same thing. It's like, well I walked
a ton, and I'm like, well, I.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Learned that from the Yankee the Yankee teams, Like the
Yankee team I was on, if there was a guy
at third, they would chase a pitch out to drive
that guy in.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
If they played with then field bad because they knew.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
One more point RBI for them was great and one
more point for us, like we get to four, we're
gonna win a ton of games. And that's that's the
that's the part that don't that that they don't understand.
You know, it's like the third time through the order,
what are your eyes tell you? Go back to go
back to the Ray's World Series when Blake Snell's out there.
I'm managed against Blake Snell for three and a half

(50:06):
years and they babied him all the way up and
but at the end of the day, you can't tell
me the Dodgers didn't breathe a huge shigh relief and
they took him out. It doesn't matter who. It could
have brought a Nolan Ryan after that, it would have
been different. Right, So it's like you just you basically
like like your eyes tell you.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
I know what the data says. My eyes tell me tonight,
he's absolutely breezing through these dudes. Let him go. It's okay,
they're not made out of five China.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Let them go.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
So that's that's my biggest argument, and it ties into this,
what made you want.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
To be such an amazing defender?

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Like what like people always ask me, is it natural,
like no I caught.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
I was just like I.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Had to do things differently than everybody else, but like
watching you do it was not only smooth, but like Cannon,
just like you had an attitude with it that I
absolutely loved to watch. Like what what when someone asked
you about defense?

Speaker 2 (51:01):
What did you?

Speaker 4 (51:02):
What?

Speaker 3 (51:02):
What?

Speaker 2 (51:02):
What's your answer?

Speaker 3 (51:04):
I just took pride in my defense, man like I
wanted when I was younger. You know, I was the
lefty just messing around at shortstop backt and like why
why can't a lefty play shortstop? I could be just
as smooth as all you guys and that type of thing.
And then I got to pro ball, I was like
it was just solely to be a good teammate, man
Like I wanted to pick the guy up at shortstop
on a nice pick. I wanted to pick my pitcher

(51:25):
up and get that out for him. And my biggest
thing as an infielder, the biggest thing that got me,
that got me going was Escobar Mustakis. When these guys
went in the hole. I wanted these guys to catch
that ball and just fucking wind up and goom I did.
I didn't want them to have to look and try
and guide the throw over there because I wanted them
to have full confidence in me. And I think that

(51:45):
was something in pro ball that I really started to
take pride in. And Jim Pizolato, he worked for Boris Agency.
He's the one that recruited me. I love PiZZ and
I'll never forget. We were at the USA Trials and
carry and every single game I would ask him. I'm like, Pis, man,
they tell you anything, Am I making the team? What's
the deal? Blah blah blah, and Piz lit me up. Dude,
he lit me up, and I guess long story short,

(52:08):
he went to my dad and it was like, hey,
do you mind if I, you know, get under Eric's
ass a little bit right here. So he lit me
up that day and from that day on, I respected
it so much. We had this baseball dialogue to where
I was like, I know, PiZZ is going to give
me straight up answers. And PiZZ would always be on
me about my defense man. He's like, look at all
these power hitting first basements, these sluggers, these guys, they

(52:29):
don't give a shit about defense man, Like, you need
to be an all round athlete. You work so hard
at your game. Maybe instead of five hundred swings, let's
take four hundred swings and take one hundred ground balls
and pick some stuff. So Pis really instilled that in me.
And then mixing that with the pro ball just being
a good teammate type shit.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
That's the id I had Piz as a child growing up.
So did you, Oh yeah, so I know I remember
those conversations. Well, but that's you said it yourself, like
it's funny. And the more balls you pick, the better
the throws became because they relaxed. And I know, I
went to pitch and I played third, which God a'mighty.
I was supposed to go there and play a couple
of games in the week, not every day. I mean,

(53:05):
they designated Jose Batista for me to play third, which
was the dumbest game in the history of the world.
But uh, and then he goes Toronto and his eight
hundred home runs. But I and I was scared to
death at third. I was like, holy shit, this is
anybody tells you the same corner, They're full of shit.
It's way harder at third than is at first. But
I had Adam LeRose, who was phenomenal too, and he

(53:26):
picked it. But like I always felt like the more
balls I picked, the better my throats became my inference.
I never wanted my inflwerts to worry about, oh shit,
like can I throw it there? I'm like, yeah, get it.
I always tell him if you miss up, blame my parents.
If you miss down, it's my fault. So like like,
if you miss down and I miss it, that's on me.
And I would argue his official scores. I'm like, I'd

(53:46):
miss a pick and be like, that's not his error.
I picked that ball nine nine times up one hundred,
that's on me. Don't give it to him. And that
that's just a you said it yourself as far as
trying to separate yourself from other guys, and that's you'd
be a complete player. And that's you know, and the biggest,
the best. It ties into this. It's the last thing
I'll say about Pro Bowl. I said, as a manager,

(54:08):
we're talking about the strikeout, and I go, I don't
I don't want to strike out, And I use this analogy.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
I said, Okay, so let me tell you this.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
If we're in game five of an a l DS
and Ian Kindler's up with the bases, loaded and there's
one out. Do I want to punch out Ian Kinsler
or do I want Ian Kindler hit a ground ball
to short? I said, I want Ian Kimsler hit a
ground all the short because the best hitter that's ever
walked the planet is on deck in Miguel Cabrera. I
want to face Migy next spring, not not, not, not tonight,

(54:39):
not tomorrow, not with bases loaded, now, with nobody on,
I said, because they were. They were negating the fact
of a ground ball, and I'm like, you're missing the point.
Name another pitch. You can get two outs in one pitch.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
You can't get the ball down.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
I know you just saw that Mets highlight the other
night where they didn't field in, And to me, that's
where it's okay. It's infield in. It's the sixth. You're
essentially playing for depth, which is all out sellout at home.
We are sacrificing double play, whatever we can do to
get this out at home. That's what we're doing. And that,
to me is where the analytics get in the way,
because that as a manager, first of all, you're telling

(55:15):
your offense you guys, stink, we're not getting another run
this is me saying we cannot get another run. And
that's where you're trying to recreate and go outside the
box and rewrite the book. It's like, no, dude, have
some fucking trust in your offense and maybe maybe you
lose the game, but at the end of the day,
maybe your offense doesn't walk away to the game feeling like, damn,
we suck. Our manager just went all out for depth

(55:36):
and the sixth inning. Like people don't understand that.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
And lose the battle will win the war.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
And that's what I just tell people all the time,
Like there's so many non verbal communication things in the
game of baseball that you don't even understand, and that's
one of them right there. You just smacked me in
the face saying we suck.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Yes, one hundred percent and that stuff. Like again, you
need guys to have relatability. It's like, Doug, what the
hell are you slamming your helmet for? Or if you
just hit a ball four hundred feet and the guy
jumped over the fence and caught it, slam your helmet
if you went against your plan, if you second guess
you have you said I'm gonna go up there sitting
slider and you threw a first pitch fastball and you
were in between. That's what you slam your helmet for.

(56:13):
Stuff like that. The young guys need to know that
stuff as soon as possible.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
And they need to know how hard the game really is.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
And that's you know, that's that's kind of the one
thing that I was that guy that hit the ball
three eighty and the guy caught it and I slammed
my helmet. And I got older and I learned as
a manager, and I watched it and I was like,
you know what, like all right, And I always started
with every every conversation and how with my guys, Mike,
you're you're making this.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
So much harder than it actually is.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
But never forget how hard is it? And like la
Troy Hawkins that one of the best teammates ever created
always to say this, like especially the media when the
media got out and he goes, don't ever forget.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
I can do what you do. You can't do what
I do.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
And I would use that line with my guys a
ton of a million times, like don't ever forget, don't leave,
like understand this, what you do is really hard.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
You'll never understand.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
People will never understand the mental side of what you
go through on a daily basis. Everybody sees the money
and how great your lifestyle really is, but I tell
them all the time, you wouldn't last twelve.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Hours in what I did for the last twelve years, because.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
This will beat you down to the point where I go,
when you made coffee this morning, did you have fifty
thousand people screaming you suck and that coffee sucks?

Speaker 2 (57:25):
It's effort, It's a jungle.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
I'm not complaining because I loved every second of it.
But at the same token, like this ain't like even
my own kid, like do I want to play pro ball?

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Maybe? Is he good enough? Maybe? But my part of me,
I'm not gonna be heart broken either way.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Mh. I'm with you. I'm with you. And what you
said about not forgetting how hard the game is, I
think as a former player, that's something that we all
pride ourselves on post careers, like, don't ever forget how
hard this game is. And that's you know why I've
gotten involved in this kind of light of this little
like player driven media type space that we're doing now,

(58:03):
because man, some of these some of these media members
try and make the game seem like it's so fucking easy, man,
And I'm like, dude, you do not know what these
guys are going through. Dougie, did you happen to watch
Have you seen the Red Sox series? The show yet
for doc was bad ass.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Yeah, I'm a little biased to the four one.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
I mean, first of all, it's amazing just to see
the difference of like how baseball was with their versus now.
But you know Jared Durant, he he voiced he went
through some mental struggles and there's one episode solely on
that on him and and Justin Turner was on the
Red Sox that year before, but he was on the
Blue Jays and they were playing Toronto and JT goes

(58:42):
over before VP sees Duran and they start talking and
Duran just talks about how this guy has made such
an impact on my life. Man Like mentally, I was
going through so much shit. But to see JT. He's
from southern California like me, I knew instantly we would
hit it off. And after every game they had the
corner he was like the corner flour they called it.
He goes, we would go over there. I don't drink

(59:04):
I would have a pepsi, but JT would have his
his tequila or his bourbon and we'd sit there for
thirty minutes and just talk about the game and we
would release it. And it made me feel so good
because you got JT, a guy that I've been watching
and looked up to, is telling me like, dude, I
was standing on my head today. I had no idea.
So he's like, shit, he goes through that, like it's
okay for me to go through that. And man, I

(59:24):
felt like that was such a huge impact. And I'm like,
that's exactly what you need. Like sometimes it has to
be player to player, you know. It's just like that's
what you need. Man, you need that.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
And that's the one thing that's going on the way
side as far as the game goes. Is that betteran presence?
Like I didn't want to leave the clubhouse. Right, we'd
sit there and stay there till even the minor leagues.
We'd stayed there till you know, one two in the morning,
drinking a couple of pops, just there talking the game.
And then right for sure and then even like we
had a couple they had a couple dy desks. Saint

(59:55):
Louis had a guy when I was playing before me
or right at right during my time.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
That kind of killed that whole thing. But we can
still talk. We can still sit there and talk.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
And like as a manager, I'd come out, I'd walk
into my office, put my stuff down, grab a water,
and come back out to grab a guy to go
either call them up or release him, and like, gone,
where the hell is it? Are we under attack? Is
someone not telling me something like but that's they just

(01:00:24):
want to get the hell out, And I get it.
It's what there, it's their beer product of how you
were raised and what your surroundings are now, and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
A shame period.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Go ahead, but.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
Dude, my theory on that, dude, and I'm sorry to
keep cutting stuck find out there. My theory on that
is like before COVID, say the game the last out
was ten o'clock, the traveling secretary is gonna say, okay,
first bus is eleven thirty, second bus is eleven forty five.
So you get in, you see it on the wall.
It's like, okay, I got an hour, hour and fifteen
to eat, do some recovery stuff, whatever I want to do,

(01:00:53):
and then catch a bus and then twenty twenty happened,
and then instead of the times, it became the first
ten guys take the first bussed in the second ten
and we're all isolated.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Dude.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
It became a race of actual race to where we
had a young guy and this dude was sweating with
his street clothes. He's like, Man, I don't know why
I'm fucking sweating. I go because the last how was
three minutes ago? Dog, Like, chill out a little bit,
you know what I mean, Like, let's just relax. And
but I really think ever since COVID, sure that kind
of ruined that little.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
But hey, perfect dude, you know you gotta get going.
I appreciate your time. We got to do this more often.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Man, dude, this is awesome. We got to do this.
And man, whenever we're in the same town, let's go
get some beers or something.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
For sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
This is so.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
We didn't even touch the high school shit yet.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
I know. I know, dude, I got some time too, Dougie.
If you want to keep going, man, If not, you
guys got to move. It's all good. I don't feel
like you're taking up any of my time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Oh well, we'll just save it for another one because
I definitely want to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
We'll have you back a bunch of time. Yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Something's going to happen. All right, that's going to wrap
it up on this edition of The Dugout. Can't thank
Eric Osmer enough. Great ball talk, great person, great player.
Check out his podcast Digging Deep. Come check us out
wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, Apple, Spotify, Like
and subscribe. Looking forward to doing many more of these,

(01:02:10):
and we'll look forward to next time