June 11, 2024 • 48 mins
One of the most popular podcast hosts in NFL media, Robert Mays has steered The Athletic Football Show for four long years. Today he joins our own Action Network hosting duo of Chad Millman and Simon Hunter to discuss his recent interview with Damien Harris, his take on Mac Jones, his experience as Grantland's very first employee and so much more. Plus, Mays and Millman talk Bears-fans-to-Bears-fan about Caleb Williams and what is takes to be a pro's pro.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Favorites of the podcast presented by BET
three six five. We are part of the Action Network.
I'm Chad Milman, chief Content Officer of the Action Network.
Joining me on this very special podcast is my co host,
my companion, my compadre, my BFF professional better Sigmon Hunter.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
So, I man, I think it must be the only
weekend in my life, Chad.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
I wish I was Chad Milman because I lost a
ton of money back in Dallas and I should have
listened to my friend here Chad and a bunch of
professional betters. But yeah, like, I still think my thought
process is right, right, don't. I mean, Luca showed up,
but unfortunately Kyrie did not. So yeah, Chad, you nailed it.
Like They're just a more complete team right now, and
(00:56):
I'm killing myself. I propped up Drew Holliday. Guess who
don't put any type of MVP bet Andrew Holly. This
guy so typical talk of guy up to no one's
talking about. He shows out and didn't put money on.
But great call.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I mean, I'm a sick in the head. I'm backing.
I saw a guy Hardwood proxy put out. Uh you
know what was it.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
They're the team in this position that's zero to two.
Now back home is six and oh. The last six
times in the spot went in straight up. So I'm sickly.
I'm at the bet Dallas again, three three games in
a row. But yeah, Chad, not not not a bad
start for you being two and oh in your finals pick.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, look, that just felt like a no brainer. We
got five guys on the Celtics who would be no
worse than the third best on any team. You got
two guys in the MAVs, and everyone else is replaceable.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And they looked at they looked at in Boston, that's
for sure.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
We'll see how they.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Look everyone else. It's funny you mentioned Drew Holliday. So
a buddy of mine I was texting with him bought
Drew Holliday one hundred and forty to one to win
MVV and the debate in my house right now has
been and he was trying to figure out should he
take the cash out offer because it's a pretty good
offer right now, and probably would he did. He did
(02:15):
take the cash out offer because the truth is, I
was talking to my kid last night about this.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Tatum is practically.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Averaging a triple double, and I think what's going to
happen is what's going to happen is the MAVs will
go and win Game three, the Celtics will win Game four,
they'll go home win Game five.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It'll be a gentleman's sweep.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And in one of those games, Tatum is going to
go off, and when he does, that's going to be
what secures the MVP for Tatum because he's playing it
like an elite level that you don't really notice right
now when he has that one game, when he goes off.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
All of a sudden, you'll be like, oh, yeah, this
guy's the MVP.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
So Tatum's curse is he's not allowed personality, right, isn't
At the end of the day, that's his curse. If
he if he was out there proclaiming like if he was,
if he was you know, any other athlete in the
NBA that we've seen before him where it's like, you know,
I'm the greatest, I'm God's gift to the world, people
would be talking about him. But he's just not that
personality type. So yeah, it's a disservice to him. But yeah,
(03:12):
once again, Schad, you're nailing it right. Now, so I
want to I want to disagree with everything you just said,
like I can't because you are you are winning.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
You're winning right now.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well you're bringing me flowers, and I appreciate that, Simon.
Today we are joined by one of the most popular
voices in NFL media, host of the wildly popular podcast
The Athletic Football Show. Look, he've been doing this for many,
many years as a writer, as an analyst, as a podcaster.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, one of the best in the biz. Robert May's welcome.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Brother's incredible introduction.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
I don't think I live up to any of those things,
but I really appreciate it. I mean, the only thing
that's objectively true is that I have been doing this
for what seems like a long time now. Sometimes I
forget that, but we're going on like twelve or thirteen years,
and that is a huge chunk of my life.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So well, look overlapped back in the ESPN Grantland days,
and I do think it'd be interesting, Like Grantlin was
such a was like a moment that everyone that were
fans was really excited about.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So much great talent came out of Grantline.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Describe a little bit for people like what it was like.
For those who don't know, Grantlin was a Bill Simmons
started sports focused website, sports and pop culture website within
the ESPN ecosystem, and then when he left, he ultimately
started The Ringer, which sort of was the next step
of that.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Robert you started at Grantland. Tell people what it was
like then.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
I was the first person hired to work there, which
is crazy to think about, but it is true. And
so I arrived there in March of twenty eleven and
there's no one else in the office. And then Lane Brown,
who was eventually our culture editor at Grantland, came and
just me and him in the office, and so there
was only three or four of us there for the
first month or so, and we would just kind of
sit in Bill's office and just talk about what we
(05:09):
wanted the site to be, which is insane. I mean,
just to think back on kind of the content of
those conversations and how creative it all felt and how
free it all felt. It was a really special experience
for somebody who was twenty three years old and doing
his first job in media to just be able to
kind of sit in and feel the growth of it
and kind of be at the genesis of it all,
(05:31):
and that's true on the written side. And then I
mean Javi Jacobi when I was twenty three came to
me and was like, do you want to do a podcast,
because that's how podcasts were handed out in twenty eleven,
and I was like, yeah, I do want to do
a podcast.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
That sounds great.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
And I've been doing a podcast now for the last
fourteen years and watching the podcast business grow and watching
kind of the trailblazing elements that we did there. I
mean guys that are famous now, like super famous, like
the No Dunks guys were on the Grantline podcast network,
men in Blazers was on the Grantline podcast network, and
just to I kind of have the perspective we have
about what it looked like then and what it looks
(06:06):
like now. It's a it's a special set of experiences.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I can say that it is a wild time not
to get media geeked out for a second, but I
bet a lot of people can remember when places like
dead Spin started in the early two thousands, and it
was the first iteration of snarky media blogs that were
(06:29):
covering sports in a different way or covering fashion in
a different way, covering.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
The onion to the onion too.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
The onion, Oh my god, it was fantastic, And like,
that's what when you talk about podcasting, that's what it
feels like now, Like that era of twenty eleven, Bill
had been doing his pod for a few years and
he was further ahead than anybody on sort of the
idea of what podcasting could be.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
And then Billy was years and years ahead, right, I
mean he was way ahead sports.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Oh yeah, it was him and Maren at that point.
I think we're kind of like trailblazers in their own
right and there and.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Somehow Jim Rome still was like big then even in
the podcast the world, like Jim Rome was early too.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I remember, that's right, that's totally right.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And now you look at the podcast business, it's so
hyper competitive.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
It's so hard to get started.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I can't tell you how many times I've interviewed someone
and they will say to me, oh, by the way,
I got a podcast. I'm like, everyone's got a fucking podcast.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
It's like, how do you see that? How do you
see the competition? How have you seen it grow in
a way that all of a sudden it's professionalized, and
you're like, man, thank god I started when I did.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
I feel lucky because of that. And I think that
even starting a show four years ago, which we did,
and then the Athletic Football Show is only four years old,
and so we joined an incredibly crowded landscape and we
launched that show. And I think the thing I learned
from Grantland. I think one of the things that sat
Gruntland apart even from places like That's been and other
kind of behemoths of digital media at that time, is
(08:04):
that there's a real earnestness to what we did. And
it was the whole purpose and kind of idea and
attitude behind the enterprise was we wanted to feel like
a place where you were hanging out with your smartest
friends about a certain topic. There was a level of
enthusiasm and engagement that felt real, It felt genuine, and
I think that I've always tried to put that back
into my work no matter where I've been working. You know,
(08:26):
you wanted to feel like something that is driven by
your own enthusiasm and curiosity for a certain topic. And
for the most part, that's how we've programmed and built
the Athletic Football Show over the last four years, and
we've been lucky enough that even in a crowded landscape,
we've been able to find a little sliver of an
audience because I think at a certain point people do
want to engage with the things they love on those terms.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, look, we're going to dig into topics we're enthusiastic
about football, analyzing football, how to make opportunities out of
our football knowledge. As a reminder of the Favorites podcast
is presented by BED three six five.
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For those enjoying on YouTube, don't forget to give us
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Speaker 2 (09:51):
All right, Robert, we were all over.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The weekend trading messages about the interview you had with
former Patriots Bill's running back from of Bill's running back,
Damien Harris. The dude was awesome, and kudos to you
for not sort of pulling back on questions about Belichick,
(10:16):
questions about Brady, questions about the locker room Mac Jones.
I want to dig into a lot of those topics.
I know Simon does too. To me, the standout moments
for that were Belichick's egotism, which I didn't think I
(10:38):
could find a way to contextualize it being any more
than it was. And yet Damien Harris did that explain
a little bit about what he told you for people
who might not have heard that.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
Yeah, I think that the best manifestation of that, or
the most interesting manifestation of that, is the idea that
anybody could have called plays within that ecosystem that they
had built anwing that it didn't really matter if that
person had experience as an offensive coordinator or not, because
you were living and coaching under this Bill Belichick umbrella.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
It was going to work, and it was going to
be fine.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
They were going to trot out the same model and
the same ideas they have for years, Tom Brady or
no Tom Brady, and it was going to work because
it had worked for two decades. And anybody who has
watched the New England Patriots offense over the last three
or four years, I think can attest to the fact
that that is not true. And I think that the
level of hubris that has to go into giving an
(11:31):
offensive coordinator job to someone who has never coached offense
in the NFL and thinking this is the right way
to raise and develop our second year quarterback who we
took with a fifteenth overall pick.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Pride comes before the fall in a pretty big way.
With that one.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Little context, So it was.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Mac Jones last year, second year Matt Patricia Joe Judge,
special teams coach, defensive coordinator, respectively. Years before for the Patriots,
they took over the play calling. Tell people a little
bit about what Damien Harris said about mac Jones in
(12:12):
year one versus mac Jones in year.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Two the biggest difference. And when I was asking him
about that Patricia Judge experience and what felt like was
missing from that compared to a well run NFL offense,
he just said that there was no foundation of a system.
There was nothing that they could really lean on. They
kind of just picked plays at random that they seemed
to like and that was what the offense consisted of.
(12:35):
And I was like, well, why wouldn't they just do
what they did with McDaniels the year before, right, Like,
it doesn't seem that hard, even if you're going to
run into blind spots to kind of play copy and
paste with an offense that to a certain extent worked
pretty well for mac Jones. And his thought was, and
his theory was that in this petty filled move, they
didn't want to carry over huge portions of the offense
(12:58):
and they even renamed certain concepts because they wanted ownership
over what was going on and they didn't want it
to feel like they were carrying over the stuff that
Josh McDaniels had done from the year before, which.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
That to me was wild.
Speaker 6 (13:11):
When he said that, I just sat there and kind
of shook my head because that's just a level of
self sabotage that feels totally unnecessary.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, and I think just to your point too, where
that's the biggest issue to me, where it's like, apparently
Josh McDaniels is the one that protected him, like Mac
Jones from Belichick, and when he left, I think that
left the void, right because now he didn't really have
anyone that had his back, right, the guy whould push
him up his rookiear was gone, and that played out.
I mean, we talked about it. He just looked mentally different,
(13:40):
broken the next year. But I think what you're saying
now she has more light on that. I thought he
was just broke mentally. I mean, apparently there was just
no coaching like he had. Literally no one was stepping
in and putting him into the best position. So yeah,
for guys like Mac Jones, we're talking about, you know,
players that in your view, we were talking about guys
who who could excel out system because it feels like
(14:01):
an NFL it's so important that you land with the
right coaches. As much as you want to say Mahomes
would have won multiple Super Bowls with the Bears.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
What do you have without Andy Reid? Like that's a
big deal.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Andy Reid, we all talked about, is maybe the second
or third best coach ever in football history. So you know,
me and Shadow with our small list, the only quarterback
we could really think of personally was Mike Vick. Like
Mike Vick historically didn't watch film. He didn't know an offense, right,
he didn't even know what cover two was until he
got out of jail was with Andy Reid on the Eagles.
So clearly, Mike Vick never learned an offensive Virginia Tech
(14:35):
and did not learn an offense in Atlanta and was
literally on the cover of Madden. This man was the
biggest superstar in the world. I mean, if you're you know,
you in your early twenties, you don't understand Mike Vick
was Lamar Jackson for Lamar Jackson. I mean, Lamar Jackson's
gone far above with Mike Vick ever could have been.
But in your mind, is there even a player like
that that, like, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
The system is Lamar and Vick the only guys we
could really think of that they don't need a system
they would work anyway.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
Two guys I would to that I think were failed
on a couple different fronts, whether it's the personnel that
was put around them or the offense that they were
dropped into that I think had pretty remarkable NFL careers
even considering that would be Cam Newton and Andrew Luck.
Cam Newton, that offense, certain elements of it were built
around him, the running game, but he was a huge
driver of what made that the best running game in
football in Carolina. You think about the pass catchers that
(15:22):
they put him with, I mean some of the names
when he won the MVP, I can't even remember who
the starting wide receivers were on those teams in a
post Steve Smith world, and he was still arguably the
best quarterback.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
In football for a year or two.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
And then the situation that Andrew Luck was dropped into
in twenty twelve, I mean, the offensive line was an
absolute mess, and God blessed Brusarians and the way that
that offense works. But that was a downfield, pushit vertical
sort of offense. And when you don't have the guys
that can hold up when you're holding out of the
ball for that long.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
You just get absolutely destroyed.
Speaker 6 (15:52):
And Andrew Luck out wrecked for multiple years, and he was
still somebody that when you watched him play in shitty circumstances,
he was undeniable.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I mean, he was undeniable.
Speaker 6 (16:03):
And so I think that's those guys, the guys who,
even when there's not the best stuff happening around them,
their talent is undeniable. And I think what we've learned
over the last decade two decades is that that list
is always going to be smaller than you wanted to be,
even with guys who were drafted in the top five.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Then there's a guy like Alex Smith.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
He's always been a fascinating story to me because he
was a number one pick overall and the expectations on
him obviously were going to be huge, and every single
place that he went, he even he outperformed what was
his skill set and made that team a winning team.
(16:40):
So how does a guy like Alex Smith become what
he became when guys who are significantly more talented can't
get over the hump with the same disadvantages.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
You know who coach Alex Smith? He went from Harbor
to Andy Reid.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Yeah, Well, at first it was I mean the two
thousand and five I can't even remember who the head
coach he was.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
I think it might have been the end of Mary Euccie.
I think I might.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Remember either who passed on Aaron Rodgers that.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I think Mike McCarthy was the offensive coordinator for that
team in two thousand and five in San Francisco, if
I'm not If I'm not mistaken, but it was he
Alex Horrible.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
He was talking horrible circumstances early in his career.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
But I actually had a conversation about this with the
head coach recently, and I was asking him about why
some guys are able to kind of overcome terrible circumstances
early in their career, why some guys aren't.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
We were talking about Will Levis last.
Speaker 6 (17:33):
Year and how Will Levis was just hid a terrible
offensive line, no one to throw the ball to, you know,
an offensive staff that just was not up to stuff
and he played half the season. And you know, is
that something where scar tissue can develop, It becomes a
negative for a player. And the coach I was talking
to said, it's about the mental toughness of the guy
that you're working with and whether or not the stuff
(17:54):
that happens to that guy when things aren't going well
are things that are going to last. And we were
talking about Joe bur specifically, because Burrow is somebody that
offensive line was horrendous, you know, his first couple of
years in Cincinnati, and there was no Jamar Chas in
year one. Obviously, that season ends when he tears his
acl but even before that, things weren't going great. But
because of the way that Joe Burrow is wired, he's
(18:15):
able to come out on the other side of that
unscathed in a way that might be a little bit
more difficult for some guys. And that's not a great
answer because that's hard to identify which guys are able
to endure that and which guys aren't. But I think
sometimes it comes down to those intelligible intangible aspects when
you're trying to figure it out.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Joe Burrow's mind might survive it his body so far
as not. And that's I think that's a great point
you just touched on, where it's like that that's a
real issue, and like when I think about that all
the time we talk about these quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Sorry to cut you off, Jed, well, no, but I
thought Robert's point about mental toughness. Alex Smith, Yeah personified that, right.
I mean, look at what the guy came back from
after that leg injury.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Robert, you probably remember this.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Our mutual friend Seth Wickersham, probably in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen,
whatever it was, wrote this great story for ESPN the
magazine about Alex Smith fighting through his shoulder injury, how
he was sleeping upright, and the rehab to come back
from it. Like those things are You're right, they are intangibles.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I would be curious.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
I don't know, Robert, if you've ever heard quarterback coaches
or coaches or coordinators or gms talk about this, how
are they identifying that?
Speaker 5 (19:32):
It's a great question.
Speaker 6 (19:34):
I mean, I think that there's obviously certain personality test
that guys take now, but I think.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
It's a lot that does it. I don't think that
does either.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I think it's not until you've seen it.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
And I think that's why I think two things.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
And sometimes this is funny when as an analyst you
kind of go through your own life span, and you know,
when you're young, you kind of go on these more
narrative driven ideas, like that guy's a winner. And that
guy's this and that guy that because you don't know
any better. And then in my twenties and early thirties,
you want to be more analytically driven, you want to
be statistically driven, you want it to be rooted in
(20:08):
certain things.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
And now that I'm getting older.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
I kind of hear my dad's voice in the back
of my head when I'm thinking about players, where it's like, Eh,
that guy ain't got it, or that guy, Yeah, that
guy's got it. And I think with quarterbacks that's why
some of the stuff that coaches or scouts would say
about like, Oh, he's done it on the biggest stage,
he did it this way. I used to roll my
eyes a stuff like that when I was younger, but
now I think I've kind of seen the light about
(20:31):
how important it is. And I think there are two
fronts with guys in college coming into the NFL. Did
he do it in the biggest games in those moments?
How did he play? You think about how CJ. Stroud
looked in that game against Georgia and the College Football
Playoff and just what that looks like now in retrospect,
and we've seen what he is. And I think the
other side of it is what has he looked like
when things have gone poorly, you know, when he's had
(20:53):
to play behind a bad offensive line, when he's had
to play in an imperfect system, what has he looked like?
And that's honestly, one of the reasons I'm bullish on
Caleb Williams compared to some other guys that are drafted
number one overall is that we've seen him in a
really bad situation as recently as last year, and even
working through that, you can still see the glimpses of
(21:13):
what makes him special.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Since you brought him.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Up, I was gonna say, God, damn it, that was
waiting for it.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
You know you're chicagoan. I'm Chicagoan. I've got significant feelings
about Caleb Williams. The other day, our friend darn Ravel
I don't know if he was being kind or if
he was trolling me. He texted me, you know, he's
(21:46):
in the memorabilia space now his new site collect and.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
He texted me a link to an.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
eBay auction for ticket stubs from the very first game
in which Sid Luckman through a touchdown pass and the
very last game in which Sid Luckman threw a touchdown pass.
The pair were going for thirty five bucks, and to
me it was indicative another reminder of how pathetically bad
(22:20):
the Bears quarterbacking has been since Sid Luckman retired seventy
four years ago. And you point out something about Caleb Williams.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And how did you make the bid?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
You know what I was about to.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's a good price.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Here's why I didn't do it, No joke I was about.
I was literally clicking on it. My buddy, who made
the Drew Holliday one hundred and forty to one MVP
called me because Drew Holliday was going off in the game,
and so we were talking about that, and then when
we got off the phone, I forgot about the bid
(23:00):
literally until this second.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I gotta go back to Ravel's text and see what
his price that now.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
But the point is Calverd did this great interview with
Kayleb Williams when he had his pro day, and he
tried to get him to admit that he had a
terrible offensive line, and I was very impressed with how
Kayleb Williams dodged the question and just answered about his
ability to be mobile and the circumstance he was playing
under last year. So to your point, Robert, you know,
(23:26):
I don't know what you're thinking about Caleb overall, but
I was impressed with that answer and impressed that he
was recognizing he had to play under trying circumstances last year.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
Absolutely, And I think that one of the things that's
jumped out to me since being exposed to him a
little bit more through interviews and just since he became
a pro and a bear specifically, is just how ready
he is for this moment in ways that guys aren't always.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
He's been famous for a long time.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
For a twenty one year old kid, and I think
that is kind of a downstream effect of what the
nil era has given us, is that these guys have money,
They can be on TV. You know, they have managers,
they have agents, and I think there's some negatives that
can come along with that, but I also think that
it's more time on task with what being a professional
looks like, sounds like, feels like. And when you watch
(24:15):
that guy in front of a microphone interacting with people,
he clearly has a better sense of that sort of
stuff than a lot of twenty one year old kids
who've never had to carry any of that before.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Now what's going to follow him his whole career, Which
I'd love to get your opinions since you've been around him,
is is this the number one love in his life?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
All any great quarterback?
Speaker 4 (24:33):
I mean Tom Brady was literally pointing at him when
he was saying, there's players who care more about their
name and their brand and the offield stuff than on
the field. And I know they took a lot of
you know, heat for that, and there's a whole thing
on it, but is it real? Is Williams from your experience,
is he like, no, this is all I care about,
Like all the other stuff, I could get rid of
it tomorrow as long as I saw a football. You
(24:54):
see him as kind of being on the fence like
he's got both feet at like you know, on each side,
where it's like he loves he loves the life, but
he loves football, which we've seen that doesn't work in football, right,
Like we've seen it. Like you want you got to
be a cycle, you got to be all in because
you know who's a psycho? Patrick Mahomes, like Lamar, Josh Allen,
all these guys, Joe Burrow, they're psychos.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
This is all they care about.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
So I would love to hear your view on Williams,
because this is what the haters are going to say
his whole career.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
If he doesn't do well, they're like, ah, he cared
about the spotlight, Like you know, that's just the older
guy thing to say, right, So I'd love to hear
your take on that.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
I would say two things.
Speaker 6 (25:29):
One, it does feel like the football is important to
him and he wants to be really good. I mean,
everybody that has been around him and anybody that has
any proximity to him seems to think that's true. He's
a good teammate. That's the thing I'm most worried about.
Can you relate to the guys in the locker room.
Can you be somebody that can find common ground with
all fifty three of those guys? Can you be a
leader and meet guys where they are? Can you listen
when it's necessary? And he said all the right things
(25:52):
when it comes to every single aspect of that. On
the other side of it, I would implore people who
think that you have to be this football focus monster
to go google Tom Brady, met Gala and Joe Brady
or Joe Burrow, Michael Rubin, party just just go check
some of those things out, Like there are guys who
(26:12):
love the life and can still be attracted to and
engaged with football, Like it's not a twelve month a
year job. You can still have interest outside of the game.
I think that practice schedules, practice habits, you know, the
demands put on players. There's been a really nice middle
ground that's been found where it's not something that's going
to eat into every aspect and every outs of your life.
(26:33):
So I think it's okay to have some sort of
balance as long as you're putting yourself in positions to
consistently have a preparation advantage.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
And I think it is possible to do both of
those things.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
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Speaker 4 (28:02):
Ah, Yes, Oma Steaks. Thank Oma Staks. I got that
in the mail chat. It's really good, I mean really
good steaks.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Brother.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
My freezer is so loaded with stuff from Omaha Steaks.
I had to start giving other food away, and I've
enjoyed all of it. Anybody who thinks that Caleb Williams
doesn't want to win or succeed did not watch him postgame,
crying in his mother's arms after I think it was
(28:32):
his last game or.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
The Bowl game.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I was moved by it, and I know there was conversation.
You know that you don't want a quarterback who does that?
I do like I'm practically in the fetal position in
tears if Simon and I don't go at least three
and two in our contest every week, Like I want
someone who cares so much that they are going to
(28:57):
be moved to tears if it doesn't go well for them.
Why would that be a bad thing in any aspect
of life. Why was someone who is so passionate about
something that they are trying so hard they want us
to see so well that they get emotional about it.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
That's amazing to me.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
I think it's just about finding your path to discipline,
whatever that happens to be. You know, if you're Tom
Brady and you love the process, you love the actual
ritual of getting up in the morning, going about it
the same way every single day, every practice is as
if you were practicing for the Super Bowl, and that's
how you get out of bed in the morning, and
that's how you apply the same level of discipline to
(29:34):
the craft every day. That's one avenue. If Caleb Williams's
path is I want to be great, I want to
be remembered, I want to be special. But the end
result is the same. You still put in the same
amount of work. You still find discipline in the same way.
It just happens to be coming from a different Whether
it's internal or external motivation, extrinsic or instrinsic, it doesn't
really matter. I think that it's all about making sure
(29:57):
that you're putting in the work every single day, and
wherever that pasth comes from, it becomes immaterial at a
certain point.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Well, I hope it doesn't eat them alive, because it's
sitting there the mantle of I mean, we saw Derek Rose, right, Chicago,
they are dying for a guy like that, right, I
mean they just want that kind of guy, and he
has a personality for it, right. And Derek Rose, he
was a silent killer, but he was perfect for the city,
like everything about it, especially Chicago at that time. It
was those were really rough days in the city. He
(30:24):
kind of embodied the city that's been lacking in Chicago,
has been missing that. So like that's my thing with him.
It's like it's you couldn't have picked a better spot
for this guy. I mean, the way it all worked out,
where it's like they've been dying for a guy for
this their whole life. I mean, as an Egos fan,
we just had our first four thousand yard passer was
Carson Wentz.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I mean, look at that guy's career.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
So it's like, as a suffering fan base, I get
Bears fans just they they've been dying for one and
it does feel like, I mean, just watching his tape
in these camps, you I mean, you haven't seen something
like this ever in Chicago. His throes is arm angles,
his footwork, it's all just like, oh my god, I
can't believe. And the way they set it up too,
(31:06):
all the pieces there. So I just wanted to put
that out there because that's everyone that's messages us, because
me and Chad talk way too much about him as is.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
That's the thing they bring up every time.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
They're just like, I don't think this kid Carris with
the most And my whole pushback is all these guys
have other interests. It's like, I'm not worried about him yet.
I might worry about him is year four, when he
has the weight of the world and they've had a
little big success. How will you be in these moments.
So just as a fan of good football, like he's
so good for our sport, and you know, I have
the highest hopes that he works out Chicago, just because
(31:37):
the city's never had that.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I mean, Sid Luckman, what year was that.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Chad nineteen thirty nine to nineteen fifty seven, So.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
That's what I mean. We're that city. Dicko is a
lifetime ago. They've been dying for a guy in football
like this.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
If he throws for four thousand yards and thirty touchdowns, ever,
it will be the greatest season in the history of
quarterbacking in Chicago. That's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Great sooner he could do it pretty quickly.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
And if you need any sort of hint about how
fast and how fervently the Chicago Bears fan base will
attach themselves to a quarterback, look no further than how
rabid that very small part of the Bears fan base
was about justin fields like two months ago, I mean,
that's it, and justin fields. If you look at every
(32:22):
single advanced metric, every single stat was a bottom third
of the league quarterback and pretty much everything, and he
had a very vocal section of Chicago Bears fans essentially
petitioning against the idea of trading him. So if Caleb
Williams is even a half decent quarterback that can provide
that fan base with a couple morsels of excitement, I
think that they'll win a He will win them over
(32:44):
pretty fast.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
He throws one laser to Roma Dunza over the middle
of the field in the first game of the year
against the Tennessee Titans, Soldier Field is going to go bananas.
One good play is going to turn the postgame show
(33:07):
into a super Bowl like irrational celebration.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
They should They should do the t O mcnabbo's first game,
I think might have a preseason they did a fake
hand off the Westbrook and then just threw a bomb
the t O and literally the whole link almost collapsed.
They should do that with the opening game with Williams.
They're just like you just said, I would explode big stadium.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
But Robert, do you think like the Bears like to
bring it around. This is the last thing we need
to say about the Bears. But it's germane to this conversation,
and it's going to be a dominant theme for quarterbacking
and what it does in the NFL for the next
five years. Yeah, Can the quarterbacks be the Can the
Bears be the organization that can support grow a quarterback
(33:47):
with the talent like Kayleb Williams as we've been discussing, Yes,
I think they can be.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
I think that they did not necessarily set themselves up
in the best way that they could have. I think
bringing back Eberflus and going with somebody like Shane Waldron,
who I think did a solid but unspectacular job in
Seattle is not the clearest path to properly developing a quarterback,
but I think it gives you a chance to So
I'm not sure I would have done what they did.
I think I might have started with the clean slate,
(34:14):
gone with an offense.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Year. Don't worry.
Speaker 6 (34:17):
Well, that's That's also part of the problem, right, is
that we've played this game out so many times in Chicago,
where a previous regime drafts a quarterback, they fall short
in year one, that regime gets fired, and then this
guy that you drafted in the first round is starting
with his second staff and his second offensive system in
two years. I've seen that song, heard that song so
(34:38):
many times. It's happened twice in the last two times,
the bearst of quarterbacks in the first round. It happened
with mister Bisky and the John Fox regime. It happened
with Justin Fields and the Matt nag regime. And you're
setting yourself your quarterback up for failure if you do that.
So I think they are one step closer to that
eventuality than they would have been if they had started
over with their head coach this year. I don't think
that Eberfus is on the same sort of hot seat
(35:00):
at a John Fox or a Matt Nage were where
they almost picked those quarterbacks out of desperation for their
own jobs. To a certain extent, this feels different than that,
But I also don't think it's the perfect circumstances from
an infrastructure standpoint. I think the players they put around
him are very good, But from an infrastructure standpoint, I
don't think it is a perfect set of circumstances for
(35:20):
a young quarterback.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So staying in the division, Justin Jefferson just signed a
massive contract extension, most money ever for a receiver. You've
covered Justin Jefferson, You've written about Justin Jefferson. You had
a story a few years ago defensive backs described covering
him with a quote, his body lies to you.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Describe what that means.
Speaker 6 (35:47):
I was always fascinated by this because I just felt
like he moved a little bit differently than other guys
at the position. And he's six ' one, but when
I stand, I'm five to eleven, justin Jefferson six to one,
and he stood next to him outside of the Vikings facility,
And even though he's only two inches taller than me,
his hip bone was about four inches higher than mine was.
(36:09):
So he's six ' one with these extremely long legs.
So when you're trying to figure out why he's moving
a certain way as a dB, he's chewing up so
much space so fast for a six to one guy
because his strides are insanely long. But because he's still
only six ' one and his center of gravity is
fairly low, he's able to change direction in a way
(36:32):
that is different than somebody with that stride length. So
that combination, he just moves differently than most guys who
are built like he is at that height at the position.
So there's really no way to understand when he's going
to throttle down when he's going to change direction, and
it makes it really really difficult to predict his movements.
And I think that we've seen that from DB's consistently
(36:54):
that just get absolutely cooked by him in open space
because they have no idea where he's going, and because he's.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Been injured, we forget how he is probably the best
receiver on football, like not everything you just said is true.
And then throw on top of that, he might have
the best hands in football, like that that Buffalo catch, Well,
that's if he makes all the fame. That's one of
the clips still show right, like that was a Hall
of Fame catch and throw by Kirk, like that whole
whole sequence and then getting that game. So yeah, I
(37:20):
love the fact that they are setting up their rookie
same as you guys with the Bears. It's like you're
setting your team up right with the rookie QB with
you know, an all pro receiver. I mean, the Bears
happened to maybe have three, but they guaranteed right now
in Vikings they have one. So you know, all the
stuff about them trying to move to the Jets, was
that real? Like the Jets were really trying to get
(37:41):
him off the Vikings. Was that real or was that
just draft talk? Did that really actually happen?
Speaker 6 (37:46):
The Vikings were never going to trade him. Okay, they
were never going to trade him. I mean, it's the
entire point of doing what the Vikings have done over
the last couple of years, moving off of a contract
like Kirk Cousins and moving on to a rookie quarterback
contract is to balance the deals that you're going to
hand out at other positions. So the way that the
Vikings have conceived of this, if you think about the
(38:08):
way that some teams who are often drafting a quarterback,
they have to spend after getting the quarterback because their
teams are so bad and they have so much cap
space that the only way to kind of take advantage
of that rookie quarterback contract is to spend in free
agency or via trades over the year or two after
you draft that quarterback. With the Vikings, they felt good
enough about their infrastructure, two high level starting tackles, the
(38:30):
best wide receiver in the league, one of the best
best catching tight ends in the league, and a very
good number two receiver who they drafted in the first
round last year. Their thought is we're going to pre
spend on those pieces before we get the quarterback. And
that's what they've done, and the Christian Deosov contract will
be coming here in the.
Speaker 5 (38:47):
Next year or so.
Speaker 6 (38:48):
So that was the idea, is that if we're going
to have the most expensive receiver in the league, a
top paid tight end, two top paid tackles, we can't
afford somebody like Kirk Cousins. So we need to get
onto the final financial benefits of a rookie quarterback contract.
That plan doesn't make sense without justin Jefferson, so it
was never going to happen. That was always the precedent
(39:08):
and the antecedent to what the second half of the
plan was going to look like.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
From Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
How did you know his hip bones were four inches
higher than your hip bones?
Speaker 5 (39:18):
I had him stand next to me, you did, I
was curious?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, and you noticed, like you noticed that his hips
were much higher? Like how do you even see that?
Speaker 6 (39:30):
I stood next to him, and I like, just where
is his hip boat? I literally hip to hip stood
next to him. So the Viking, I mean, this is
like inside baseball, but though oftentimes the interviews will happen
right outside of the door to their facilities. So guys
will come off the practice field, he'll sit on a
little like cobblestone rate like bench area and you just talk.
(39:50):
And so we were sitting there having that conversation in person,
and I said, can you stand up for me for
a second, And we just went hip to hip and
I wanted to see how long his legs were because
I wanted to see if the theory that his legs
were insanely long for six to one person was correct.
And that was really the only way of doing it
field research.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Simon, can you name the fastest growing ticketing app in
the United States?
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Game Time?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
That's right, It's game Time. I love Game Time for
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you feel like you watch football differently than other people
on Sunday?
Speaker 6 (41:01):
Yes, I mean different than somebody who's just watching the
game as a fan would watch. But I don't think
differently than analysts would watch, you know, I don't. I've
never pretended to be a person who has like this
exceptional x's and oh's football knowledge. I didn't play football
after high school. I've done my best to learn about
the game from people who know it best, talking to coaches,
(41:24):
talking to players, you know, watching videos, reading books, watching clinics.
But I'm not somebody who sees the game and understands
route concepts and progressions and all of that stuff like
former players are like really in tune analysts too. But
I think that I'm watching it differently than a general
fan would, just because I'm trying to pay attention to
what was the formation on this play, what was the
(41:45):
motion like on this play, how did they line up,
what was the personnel grouping?
Speaker 5 (41:49):
Things like that.
Speaker 6 (41:50):
But that's more just because I want to be in
tune with those things for my job, not because I
have some preternatural ability to see the game in a
way that other people can't.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Now, I know Chad will love this.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
I just love schedule of talk and my my biggest thing,
I just want to get it because again, and we
talked Bears a little bit, but you know, our guy
Evan was telling us the Bears and Pittsburgh they don't
play a single divisional game until week eleven?
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Like, what is your view on that? Is that is
that beneficiary too?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
I mean again, you guys, I mean Jayed talk about
I think you guys.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Have one of the harder division of football.
Speaker 4 (42:22):
I don't know if you agree where you talked a
little bit about there with Minnesota, Jordan Love up and
coming already know Destroit's incredible.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
What is with that, like Pittsburgh and Bears.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Is that advantage for these two teams that have new
quarterbacks that they don't play divisional games until week eleven?
Speaker 6 (42:34):
That's crazy if it's an advantage or a disadvantage, because
I think that there are other teams. The Vikings are
going to be a different team after Halloween than they're
going to be before Halloween, and I do think that.
You know, we've seen teams really hit their stride at
different points in the year. You know, the Lions, their offense,
you can set your watch to it. But the defense,
they've thrown out different sort of strategies. They've had different
(42:55):
identities throughout the season. So I would want to play
better teams I think. I think earlier in the year
before they can crystallize a little bit that's based on nothing,
but if there might be no information that backs that
up whatsoever. But I just hear certain personnel people and
coaches that have over the years have just said to me,
you're not the team you're gonna be until Thanksgiving. You're
(43:16):
not the team you're gonna be til Thanksgiving. That's just
hard for me to get out of my mind as
I'm thinking about the league more anecdotally. But I'm sure
in the end it doesn't really matter. You know, it's
more just a quirk of it than anything else. But
if your season takes a turn for the worst or
you haven't found yourself and these other teams kind of
settle into who they're going to be in the back
half of the year.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
Having to go.
Speaker 6 (43:37):
Through that brutal division slate all at once in that
stretch of the calendar. I mean that doesn't sound fun.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Yeah, And as someone that also has you know, a
decent amount of listeners during the NFL season, I love
to hear review on you know, what it's like to
have like a huge popular show during the NFL season?
Speaker 3 (43:53):
What positives you like about it? Were the negatives of it? Like?
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I mean, as someone that we do this, I can
tell you I can't even go.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
I can't even when we win.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
I don't like reading people's comments because it's like you
don't want them blowing smoke, right, and then you also
don't want to be someone telling you you're like the
worst person in the world. So I would love to
review what to like have such a huge show during
the season.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Oh how huge the show is? I appreciate you guys
framing it that way, but.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
If I know it's gotta be a semi big I uh.
Speaker 6 (44:18):
The first thing I would say is the number one
emotion that I feel about all of this all the
time is gratitude. I feel so insanely lucky to have
a consistent audience and to have built an audience of
any size because I don't think I'm special.
Speaker 5 (44:34):
I don't think I'm.
Speaker 6 (44:35):
More talented or more entertaining, or more knowledgeable than anybody
that tries to do this. So the fact that I've
been able to or we've been able to carve out
even a small set of people who are going to
listen to the show is still insane to me, and
I'll take it every single time. On the other side
of it, I think the only real thing that I
think about in season compared to out of season is
it's frustrating sometimes feeling like you're on the hamster wheel
(44:56):
a little bit, where you are almost kind of you're
constantly reacting to and then predicting what's going to happen
in the next week. And the NFL schedule in the
NFL season is so unique in that way, and college
football's like this too, where there are so few games
that you're almost you're tied to the schedule in a
way that you're not with some of these other sports.
Right Like if you're talking about the NBA or baseball,
(45:19):
every game, the sky isn't falling or a team isn't
the greatest thing that's ever happened. So I think that
you can kind of ride with the narratives, and they're
a little bit slower developing than they are in the NFL,
where if you have three good games in a row
and then you're Dak Prescott and you throw three picks
and that week I'm talking about how good Dak Prescott is,
there's going to be a very loud subsect to people
(45:41):
on the internet who are like, what are you talking about?
He played the garbage last week, and it's like, well, guys,
there's more than four games, like yeah, and then there's
let's take a step back here and think about this
more holistically. So that's the only thing that I think
is a little bit frustrating is that it's really really
hard to not cover the league with those sort of
vacillations and over the first month of the year. I mean,
I'm sure you know this and you feel this. It's
(46:03):
hard to talk about the NFL for the first four
weeks of the year because you have no idea what's
real and what's not. So you watch something happen in
week one and you think, oh man, this team is great,
and then three weeks later you're like, I can't believe
I said that. I hope that they burn the tapes
of me saying that. So it's just a different sort
of beast when it comes to the way the season unfolds,
(46:25):
the way the season plays out, because the games are
just different than they are in other sports.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Robert, I do want to thank you for coming on.
It's been great to have you on. You know, we
love The Athletic Football Show and I'm looking forward to
it in the fall and every week. Actually, be sure
to check out Robert Mays every single week on his
terrific podcast, The Athletic Football Show. As a reminder, the
(46:54):
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(47:15):
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(47:37):
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Speaker 2 (47:46):
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Welcome to the Favorites of the podcast presented by BET
three six five. We are part of the Action Network.
I'm Chad Milman, chief Content Officer of the Action Network.
Joining me on this very special podcast is my co host,
my companion, my compadre, my BFF professional better Sigmon Hunter.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
So, I man, I think it must be the only
weekend in my life, Chad.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
I wish I was Chad Milman because I lost a
ton of money back in Dallas and I should have
listened to my friend here Chad and a bunch of
professional betters. But yeah, like, I still think my thought
process is right, right, don't. I mean, Luca showed up,
but unfortunately Kyrie did not. So yeah, Chad, you nailed it.
Like They're just a more complete team right now, and
(00:56):
I'm killing myself. I propped up Drew Holliday. Guess who
don't put any type of MVP bet Andrew Holly. This
guy so typical talk of guy up to no one's
talking about. He shows out and didn't put money on.
But great call.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I mean, I'm a sick in the head. I'm backing.
I saw a guy Hardwood proxy put out. Uh you
know what was it.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
They're the team in this position that's zero to two.
Now back home is six and oh. The last six
times in the spot went in straight up. So I'm sickly.
I'm at the bet Dallas again, three three games in
a row. But yeah, Chad, not not not a bad
start for you being two and oh in your finals pick.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, look, that just felt like a no brainer. We
got five guys on the Celtics who would be no
worse than the third best on any team. You got
two guys in the MAVs, and everyone else is replaceable.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And they looked at they looked at in Boston, that's
for sure.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
We'll see how they.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Look everyone else. It's funny you mentioned Drew Holliday. So
a buddy of mine I was texting with him bought
Drew Holliday one hundred and forty to one to win
MVV and the debate in my house right now has
been and he was trying to figure out should he
take the cash out offer because it's a pretty good
offer right now, and probably would he did. He did
(02:15):
take the cash out offer because the truth is, I
was talking to my kid last night about this.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Tatum is practically.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Averaging a triple double, and I think what's going to
happen is what's going to happen is the MAVs will
go and win Game three, the Celtics will win Game four,
they'll go home win Game five.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It'll be a gentleman's sweep.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And in one of those games, Tatum is going to
go off, and when he does, that's going to be
what secures the MVP for Tatum because he's playing it
like an elite level that you don't really notice right
now when he has that one game, when he goes off.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
All of a sudden, you'll be like, oh, yeah, this
guy's the MVP.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
So Tatum's curse is he's not allowed personality, right, isn't
At the end of the day, that's his curse. If
he if he was out there proclaiming like if he was,
if he was you know, any other athlete in the
NBA that we've seen before him where it's like, you know,
I'm the greatest, I'm God's gift to the world, people
would be talking about him. But he's just not that
personality type. So yeah, it's a disservice to him. But yeah,
(03:12):
once again, Schad, you're nailing it right. Now, so I
want to I want to disagree with everything you just said,
like I can't because you are you are winning.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
You're winning right now.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well you're bringing me flowers, and I appreciate that, Simon.
Today we are joined by one of the most popular
voices in NFL media, host of the wildly popular podcast
The Athletic Football Show. Look, he've been doing this for many,
many years as a writer, as an analyst, as a podcaster.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, one of the best in the biz. Robert May's welcome.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Brother's incredible introduction.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
I don't think I live up to any of those things,
but I really appreciate it. I mean, the only thing
that's objectively true is that I have been doing this
for what seems like a long time now. Sometimes I
forget that, but we're going on like twelve or thirteen years,
and that is a huge chunk of my life.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So well, look overlapped back in the ESPN Grantland days,
and I do think it'd be interesting, Like Grantlin was
such a was like a moment that everyone that were
fans was really excited about.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So much great talent came out of Grantline.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Describe a little bit for people like what it was like.
For those who don't know, Grantlin was a Bill Simmons
started sports focused website, sports and pop culture website within
the ESPN ecosystem, and then when he left, he ultimately
started The Ringer, which sort of was the next step
of that.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Robert you started at Grantland. Tell people what it was
like then.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
I was the first person hired to work there, which
is crazy to think about, but it is true. And
so I arrived there in March of twenty eleven and
there's no one else in the office. And then Lane Brown,
who was eventually our culture editor at Grantland, came and
just me and him in the office, and so there
was only three or four of us there for the
first month or so, and we would just kind of
sit in Bill's office and just talk about what we
(05:09):
wanted the site to be, which is insane. I mean,
just to think back on kind of the content of
those conversations and how creative it all felt and how
free it all felt. It was a really special experience
for somebody who was twenty three years old and doing
his first job in media to just be able to
kind of sit in and feel the growth of it
and kind of be at the genesis of it all,
(05:31):
and that's true on the written side. And then I
mean Javi Jacobi when I was twenty three came to
me and was like, do you want to do a podcast,
because that's how podcasts were handed out in twenty eleven,
and I was like, yeah, I do want to do
a podcast.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
That sounds great.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
And I've been doing a podcast now for the last
fourteen years and watching the podcast business grow and watching
kind of the trailblazing elements that we did there. I
mean guys that are famous now, like super famous, like
the No Dunks guys were on the Grantline podcast network,
men in Blazers was on the Grantline podcast network, and
just to I kind of have the perspective we have
about what it looked like then and what it looks
(06:06):
like now. It's a it's a special set of experiences.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I can say that it is a wild time not
to get media geeked out for a second, but I
bet a lot of people can remember when places like
dead Spin started in the early two thousands, and it
was the first iteration of snarky media blogs that were
(06:29):
covering sports in a different way or covering fashion in
a different way, covering.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
The onion to the onion too.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
The onion, Oh my god, it was fantastic, And like,
that's what when you talk about podcasting, that's what it
feels like now, Like that era of twenty eleven, Bill
had been doing his pod for a few years and
he was further ahead than anybody on sort of the
idea of what podcasting could be.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
And then Billy was years and years ahead, right, I
mean he was way ahead sports.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Oh yeah, it was him and Maren at that point.
I think we're kind of like trailblazers in their own
right and there and.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Somehow Jim Rome still was like big then even in
the podcast the world, like Jim Rome was early too.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I remember, that's right, that's totally right.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And now you look at the podcast business, it's so
hyper competitive.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
It's so hard to get started.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I can't tell you how many times I've interviewed someone
and they will say to me, oh, by the way,
I got a podcast. I'm like, everyone's got a fucking podcast.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
It's like, how do you see that? How do you
see the competition? How have you seen it grow in
a way that all of a sudden it's professionalized, and
you're like, man, thank god I started when I did.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
I feel lucky because of that. And I think that
even starting a show four years ago, which we did,
and then the Athletic Football Show is only four years old,
and so we joined an incredibly crowded landscape and we
launched that show. And I think the thing I learned
from Grantland. I think one of the things that sat
Gruntland apart even from places like That's been and other
kind of behemoths of digital media at that time, is
(08:04):
that there's a real earnestness to what we did. And
it was the whole purpose and kind of idea and
attitude behind the enterprise was we wanted to feel like
a place where you were hanging out with your smartest
friends about a certain topic. There was a level of
enthusiasm and engagement that felt real, It felt genuine, and
I think that I've always tried to put that back
into my work no matter where I've been working. You know,
(08:26):
you wanted to feel like something that is driven by
your own enthusiasm and curiosity for a certain topic. And
for the most part, that's how we've programmed and built
the Athletic Football Show over the last four years, and
we've been lucky enough that even in a crowded landscape,
we've been able to find a little sliver of an
audience because I think at a certain point people do
want to engage with the things they love on those terms.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, look, we're going to dig into topics we're enthusiastic
about football, analyzing football, how to make opportunities out of
our football knowledge. As a reminder of the Favorites podcast
is presented by BED three six five.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
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(09:38):
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Speaker 2 (09:45):
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Speaker 1 (09:46):
For those enjoying on YouTube, don't forget to give us
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Speaker 2 (09:51):
All right, Robert, we were all over.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The weekend trading messages about the interview you had with
former Patriots Bill's running back from of Bill's running back,
Damien Harris. The dude was awesome, and kudos to you
for not sort of pulling back on questions about Belichick,
(10:16):
questions about Brady, questions about the locker room Mac Jones.
I want to dig into a lot of those topics.
I know Simon does too. To me, the standout moments
for that were Belichick's egotism, which I didn't think I
(10:38):
could find a way to contextualize it being any more
than it was. And yet Damien Harris did that explain
a little bit about what he told you for people
who might not have heard that.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
Yeah, I think that the best manifestation of that, or
the most interesting manifestation of that, is the idea that
anybody could have called plays within that ecosystem that they
had built anwing that it didn't really matter if that
person had experience as an offensive coordinator or not, because
you were living and coaching under this Bill Belichick umbrella.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
It was going to work, and it was going to
be fine.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
They were going to trot out the same model and
the same ideas they have for years, Tom Brady or
no Tom Brady, and it was going to work because
it had worked for two decades. And anybody who has
watched the New England Patriots offense over the last three
or four years, I think can attest to the fact
that that is not true. And I think that the
level of hubris that has to go into giving an
(11:31):
offensive coordinator job to someone who has never coached offense
in the NFL and thinking this is the right way
to raise and develop our second year quarterback who we
took with a fifteenth overall pick.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Pride comes before the fall in a pretty big way.
With that one.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Little context, So it was.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Mac Jones last year, second year Matt Patricia Joe Judge,
special teams coach, defensive coordinator, respectively. Years before for the Patriots,
they took over the play calling. Tell people a little
bit about what Damien Harris said about mac Jones in
(12:12):
year one versus mac Jones in year.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Two the biggest difference. And when I was asking him
about that Patricia Judge experience and what felt like was
missing from that compared to a well run NFL offense,
he just said that there was no foundation of a system.
There was nothing that they could really lean on. They
kind of just picked plays at random that they seemed
to like and that was what the offense consisted of.
(12:35):
And I was like, well, why wouldn't they just do
what they did with McDaniels the year before, right, Like,
it doesn't seem that hard, even if you're going to
run into blind spots to kind of play copy and
paste with an offense that to a certain extent worked
pretty well for mac Jones. And his thought was, and
his theory was that in this petty filled move, they
didn't want to carry over huge portions of the offense
(12:58):
and they even renamed certain concepts because they wanted ownership
over what was going on and they didn't want it
to feel like they were carrying over the stuff that
Josh McDaniels had done from the year before, which.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
That to me was wild.
Speaker 6 (13:11):
When he said that, I just sat there and kind
of shook my head because that's just a level of
self sabotage that feels totally unnecessary.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, and I think just to your point too, where
that's the biggest issue to me, where it's like, apparently
Josh McDaniels is the one that protected him, like Mac
Jones from Belichick, and when he left, I think that
left the void, right because now he didn't really have
anyone that had his back, right, the guy whould push
him up his rookiear was gone, and that played out.
I mean, we talked about it. He just looked mentally different,
(13:40):
broken the next year. But I think what you're saying
now she has more light on that. I thought he
was just broke mentally. I mean, apparently there was just
no coaching like he had. Literally no one was stepping
in and putting him into the best position. So yeah,
for guys like Mac Jones, we're talking about, you know,
players that in your view, we were talking about guys
who who could excel out system because it feels like
(14:01):
an NFL it's so important that you land with the
right coaches. As much as you want to say Mahomes
would have won multiple Super Bowls with the Bears.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
What do you have without Andy Reid? Like that's a
big deal.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Andy Reid, we all talked about, is maybe the second
or third best coach ever in football history. So you know,
me and Shadow with our small list, the only quarterback
we could really think of personally was Mike Vick. Like
Mike Vick historically didn't watch film. He didn't know an offense, right,
he didn't even know what cover two was until he
got out of jail was with Andy Reid on the Eagles.
So clearly, Mike Vick never learned an offensive Virginia Tech
(14:35):
and did not learn an offense in Atlanta and was
literally on the cover of Madden. This man was the
biggest superstar in the world. I mean, if you're you know,
you in your early twenties, you don't understand Mike Vick
was Lamar Jackson for Lamar Jackson. I mean, Lamar Jackson's
gone far above with Mike Vick ever could have been.
But in your mind, is there even a player like
that that, like, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
The system is Lamar and Vick the only guys we
could really think of that they don't need a system
they would work anyway.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
Two guys I would to that I think were failed
on a couple different fronts, whether it's the personnel that
was put around them or the offense that they were
dropped into that I think had pretty remarkable NFL careers
even considering that would be Cam Newton and Andrew Luck.
Cam Newton, that offense, certain elements of it were built
around him, the running game, but he was a huge
driver of what made that the best running game in
football in Carolina. You think about the pass catchers that
(15:22):
they put him with, I mean some of the names
when he won the MVP, I can't even remember who
the starting wide receivers were on those teams in a
post Steve Smith world, and he was still arguably the
best quarterback.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
In football for a year or two.
Speaker 6 (15:34):
And then the situation that Andrew Luck was dropped into
in twenty twelve, I mean, the offensive line was an
absolute mess, and God blessed Brusarians and the way that
that offense works. But that was a downfield, pushit vertical
sort of offense. And when you don't have the guys
that can hold up when you're holding out of the
ball for that long.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
You just get absolutely destroyed.
Speaker 6 (15:52):
And Andrew Luck out wrecked for multiple years, and he was
still somebody that when you watched him play in shitty circumstances,
he was undeniable.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I mean, he was undeniable.
Speaker 6 (16:03):
And so I think that's those guys, the guys who,
even when there's not the best stuff happening around them,
their talent is undeniable. And I think what we've learned
over the last decade two decades is that that list
is always going to be smaller than you wanted to be,
even with guys who were drafted in the top five.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Then there's a guy like Alex Smith.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
He's always been a fascinating story to me because he
was a number one pick overall and the expectations on
him obviously were going to be huge, and every single
place that he went, he even he outperformed what was
his skill set and made that team a winning team.
(16:40):
So how does a guy like Alex Smith become what
he became when guys who are significantly more talented can't
get over the hump with the same disadvantages.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
You know who coach Alex Smith? He went from Harbor
to Andy Reid.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Yeah, Well, at first it was I mean the two
thousand and five I can't even remember who the head
coach he was.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
I think it might have been the end of Mary Euccie.
I think I might.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Remember either who passed on Aaron Rodgers that.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I think Mike McCarthy was the offensive coordinator for that
team in two thousand and five in San Francisco, if
I'm not If I'm not mistaken, but it was he
Alex Horrible.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
He was talking horrible circumstances early in his career.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
But I actually had a conversation about this with the
head coach recently, and I was asking him about why
some guys are able to kind of overcome terrible circumstances
early in their career, why some guys aren't.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
We were talking about Will Levis last.
Speaker 6 (17:33):
Year and how Will Levis was just hid a terrible
offensive line, no one to throw the ball to, you know,
an offensive staff that just was not up to stuff
and he played half the season. And you know, is
that something where scar tissue can develop, It becomes a
negative for a player. And the coach I was talking
to said, it's about the mental toughness of the guy
that you're working with and whether or not the stuff
(17:54):
that happens to that guy when things aren't going well
are things that are going to last. And we were
talking about Joe bur specifically, because Burrow is somebody that
offensive line was horrendous, you know, his first couple of
years in Cincinnati, and there was no Jamar Chas in
year one. Obviously, that season ends when he tears his
acl but even before that, things weren't going great. But
because of the way that Joe Burrow is wired, he's
(18:15):
able to come out on the other side of that
unscathed in a way that might be a little bit
more difficult for some guys. And that's not a great
answer because that's hard to identify which guys are able
to endure that and which guys aren't. But I think
sometimes it comes down to those intelligible intangible aspects when
you're trying to figure it out.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Joe Burrow's mind might survive it his body so far
as not. And that's I think that's a great point
you just touched on, where it's like that that's a
real issue, and like when I think about that all
the time we talk about these quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Sorry to cut you off, Jed, well, no, but I
thought Robert's point about mental toughness. Alex Smith, Yeah personified that, right.
I mean, look at what the guy came back from
after that leg injury.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Robert, you probably remember this.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Our mutual friend Seth Wickersham, probably in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen,
whatever it was, wrote this great story for ESPN the
magazine about Alex Smith fighting through his shoulder injury, how
he was sleeping upright, and the rehab to come back
from it. Like those things are You're right, they are intangibles.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I would be curious.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
I don't know, Robert, if you've ever heard quarterback coaches
or coaches or coordinators or gms talk about this, how
are they identifying that?
Speaker 5 (19:32):
It's a great question.
Speaker 6 (19:34):
I mean, I think that there's obviously certain personality test
that guys take now, but I think.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
It's a lot that does it. I don't think that
does either.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I think it's not until you've seen it.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
And I think that's why I think two things.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
And sometimes this is funny when as an analyst you
kind of go through your own life span, and you know,
when you're young, you kind of go on these more
narrative driven ideas, like that guy's a winner. And that
guy's this and that guy that because you don't know
any better. And then in my twenties and early thirties,
you want to be more analytically driven, you want to
be statistically driven, you want it to be rooted in
(20:08):
certain things.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
And now that I'm getting older.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
I kind of hear my dad's voice in the back
of my head when I'm thinking about players, where it's like, Eh,
that guy ain't got it, or that guy, Yeah, that
guy's got it. And I think with quarterbacks that's why
some of the stuff that coaches or scouts would say
about like, Oh, he's done it on the biggest stage,
he did it this way. I used to roll my
eyes a stuff like that when I was younger, but
now I think I've kind of seen the light about
(20:31):
how important it is. And I think there are two
fronts with guys in college coming into the NFL. Did
he do it in the biggest games in those moments?
How did he play? You think about how CJ. Stroud
looked in that game against Georgia and the College Football
Playoff and just what that looks like now in retrospect,
and we've seen what he is. And I think the
other side of it is what has he looked like
when things have gone poorly, you know, when he's had
(20:53):
to play behind a bad offensive line, when he's had
to play in an imperfect system, what has he looked like?
And that's honestly, one of the reasons I'm bullish on
Caleb Williams compared to some other guys that are drafted
number one overall is that we've seen him in a
really bad situation as recently as last year, and even
working through that, you can still see the glimpses of
(21:13):
what makes him special.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Since you brought him.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Up, I was gonna say, God, damn it, that was
waiting for it.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
You know you're chicagoan. I'm Chicagoan. I've got significant feelings
about Caleb Williams. The other day, our friend darn Ravel
I don't know if he was being kind or if
he was trolling me. He texted me, you know, he's
(21:46):
in the memorabilia space now his new site collect and.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
He texted me a link to an.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
eBay auction for ticket stubs from the very first game
in which Sid Luckman through a touchdown pass and the
very last game in which Sid Luckman threw a touchdown pass.
The pair were going for thirty five bucks, and to
me it was indicative another reminder of how pathetically bad
(22:20):
the Bears quarterbacking has been since Sid Luckman retired seventy
four years ago. And you point out something about Caleb Williams.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And how did you make the bid?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
You know what I was about to.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's a good price.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Here's why I didn't do it, No joke I was about.
I was literally clicking on it. My buddy, who made
the Drew Holliday one hundred and forty to one MVP
called me because Drew Holliday was going off in the game,
and so we were talking about that, and then when
we got off the phone, I forgot about the bid
(23:00):
literally until this second.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I gotta go back to Ravel's text and see what
his price that now.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
But the point is Calverd did this great interview with
Kayleb Williams when he had his pro day, and he
tried to get him to admit that he had a
terrible offensive line, and I was very impressed with how
Kayleb Williams dodged the question and just answered about his
ability to be mobile and the circumstance he was playing
under last year. So to your point, Robert, you know,
(23:26):
I don't know what you're thinking about Caleb overall, but
I was impressed with that answer and impressed that he
was recognizing he had to play under trying circumstances last year.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
Absolutely, And I think that one of the things that's
jumped out to me since being exposed to him a
little bit more through interviews and just since he became
a pro and a bear specifically, is just how ready
he is for this moment in ways that guys aren't always.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
He's been famous for a long time.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
For a twenty one year old kid, and I think
that is kind of a downstream effect of what the
nil era has given us, is that these guys have money,
They can be on TV. You know, they have managers,
they have agents, and I think there's some negatives that
can come along with that, but I also think that
it's more time on task with what being a professional
looks like, sounds like, feels like. And when you watch
(24:15):
that guy in front of a microphone interacting with people,
he clearly has a better sense of that sort of
stuff than a lot of twenty one year old kids
who've never had to carry any of that before.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Now what's going to follow him his whole career, Which
I'd love to get your opinions since you've been around him,
is is this the number one love in his life?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
All any great quarterback?
Speaker 4 (24:33):
I mean Tom Brady was literally pointing at him when
he was saying, there's players who care more about their
name and their brand and the offield stuff than on
the field. And I know they took a lot of
you know, heat for that, and there's a whole thing
on it, but is it real? Is Williams from your experience,
is he like, no, this is all I care about,
Like all the other stuff, I could get rid of
it tomorrow as long as I saw a football. You
(24:54):
see him as kind of being on the fence like
he's got both feet at like you know, on each side,
where it's like he loves he loves the life, but
he loves football, which we've seen that doesn't work in football, right,
Like we've seen it. Like you want you got to
be a cycle, you got to be all in because
you know who's a psycho? Patrick Mahomes, like Lamar, Josh Allen,
all these guys, Joe Burrow, they're psychos.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
This is all they care about.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
So I would love to hear your view on Williams,
because this is what the haters are going to say
his whole career.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
If he doesn't do well, they're like, ah, he cared
about the spotlight, Like you know, that's just the older
guy thing to say, right, So I'd love to hear
your take on that.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
I would say two things.
Speaker 6 (25:29):
One, it does feel like the football is important to
him and he wants to be really good. I mean,
everybody that has been around him and anybody that has
any proximity to him seems to think that's true. He's
a good teammate. That's the thing I'm most worried about.
Can you relate to the guys in the locker room.
Can you be somebody that can find common ground with
all fifty three of those guys? Can you be a
leader and meet guys where they are? Can you listen
when it's necessary? And he said all the right things
(25:52):
when it comes to every single aspect of that. On
the other side of it, I would implore people who
think that you have to be this football focus monster
to go google Tom Brady, met Gala and Joe Brady
or Joe Burrow, Michael Rubin, party just just go check
some of those things out, Like there are guys who
(26:12):
love the life and can still be attracted to and
engaged with football, Like it's not a twelve month a
year job. You can still have interest outside of the game.
I think that practice schedules, practice habits, you know, the
demands put on players. There's been a really nice middle
ground that's been found where it's not something that's going
to eat into every aspect and every outs of your life.
(26:33):
So I think it's okay to have some sort of
balance as long as you're putting yourself in positions to
consistently have a preparation advantage.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
And I think it is possible to do both of
those things.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
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Speaker 4 (28:02):
Ah, Yes, Oma Steaks. Thank Oma Staks. I got that
in the mail chat. It's really good, I mean really
good steaks.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Brother.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
My freezer is so loaded with stuff from Omaha Steaks.
I had to start giving other food away, and I've
enjoyed all of it. Anybody who thinks that Caleb Williams
doesn't want to win or succeed did not watch him postgame,
crying in his mother's arms after I think it was
(28:32):
his last game or.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
The Bowl game.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I was moved by it, and I know there was conversation.
You know that you don't want a quarterback who does that?
I do like I'm practically in the fetal position in
tears if Simon and I don't go at least three
and two in our contest every week, Like I want
someone who cares so much that they are going to
(28:57):
be moved to tears if it doesn't go well for them.
Why would that be a bad thing in any aspect
of life. Why was someone who is so passionate about
something that they are trying so hard they want us
to see so well that they get emotional about it.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
That's amazing to me.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
I think it's just about finding your path to discipline,
whatever that happens to be. You know, if you're Tom
Brady and you love the process, you love the actual
ritual of getting up in the morning, going about it
the same way every single day, every practice is as
if you were practicing for the Super Bowl, and that's
how you get out of bed in the morning, and
that's how you apply the same level of discipline to
(29:34):
the craft every day. That's one avenue. If Caleb Williams's
path is I want to be great, I want to
be remembered, I want to be special. But the end
result is the same. You still put in the same
amount of work. You still find discipline in the same way.
It just happens to be coming from a different Whether
it's internal or external motivation, extrinsic or instrinsic, it doesn't
really matter. I think that it's all about making sure
(29:57):
that you're putting in the work every single day, and
wherever that pasth comes from, it becomes immaterial at a
certain point.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Well, I hope it doesn't eat them alive, because it's
sitting there the mantle of I mean, we saw Derek Rose, right, Chicago,
they are dying for a guy like that, right, I
mean they just want that kind of guy, and he
has a personality for it, right. And Derek Rose, he
was a silent killer, but he was perfect for the city,
like everything about it, especially Chicago at that time. It
was those were really rough days in the city. He
(30:24):
kind of embodied the city that's been lacking in Chicago,
has been missing that. So like that's my thing with him.
It's like it's you couldn't have picked a better spot
for this guy. I mean, the way it all worked out,
where it's like they've been dying for a guy for
this their whole life. I mean, as an Egos fan,
we just had our first four thousand yard passer was
Carson Wentz.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I mean, look at that guy's career.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
So it's like, as a suffering fan base, I get
Bears fans just they they've been dying for one and
it does feel like, I mean, just watching his tape
in these camps, you I mean, you haven't seen something
like this ever in Chicago. His throes is arm angles,
his footwork, it's all just like, oh my god, I
can't believe. And the way they set it up too,
(31:06):
all the pieces there. So I just wanted to put
that out there because that's everyone that's messages us, because
me and Chad talk way too much about him as is.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
That's the thing they bring up every time.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
They're just like, I don't think this kid Carris with
the most And my whole pushback is all these guys
have other interests. It's like, I'm not worried about him yet.
I might worry about him is year four, when he
has the weight of the world and they've had a
little big success. How will you be in these moments.
So just as a fan of good football, like he's
so good for our sport, and you know, I have
the highest hopes that he works out Chicago, just because
(31:37):
the city's never had that.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I mean, Sid Luckman, what year was that.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Chad nineteen thirty nine to nineteen fifty seven, So.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
That's what I mean. We're that city. Dicko is a
lifetime ago. They've been dying for a guy in football
like this.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
If he throws for four thousand yards and thirty touchdowns, ever,
it will be the greatest season in the history of
quarterbacking in Chicago. That's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's not an exaggeration.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Great sooner he could do it pretty quickly.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
And if you need any sort of hint about how
fast and how fervently the Chicago Bears fan base will
attach themselves to a quarterback, look no further than how
rabid that very small part of the Bears fan base
was about justin fields like two months ago, I mean,
that's it, and justin fields. If you look at every
(32:22):
single advanced metric, every single stat was a bottom third
of the league quarterback and pretty much everything, and he
had a very vocal section of Chicago Bears fans essentially
petitioning against the idea of trading him. So if Caleb
Williams is even a half decent quarterback that can provide
that fan base with a couple morsels of excitement, I
think that they'll win a He will win them over
(32:44):
pretty fast.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
He throws one laser to Roma Dunza over the middle
of the field in the first game of the year
against the Tennessee Titans, Soldier Field is going to go bananas.
One good play is going to turn the postgame show
(33:07):
into a super Bowl like irrational celebration.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
They should They should do the t O mcnabbo's first game,
I think might have a preseason they did a fake
hand off the Westbrook and then just threw a bomb
the t O and literally the whole link almost collapsed.
They should do that with the opening game with Williams.
They're just like you just said, I would explode big stadium.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
But Robert, do you think like the Bears like to
bring it around. This is the last thing we need
to say about the Bears. But it's germane to this conversation,
and it's going to be a dominant theme for quarterbacking
and what it does in the NFL for the next
five years. Yeah, Can the quarterbacks be the Can the
Bears be the organization that can support grow a quarterback
(33:47):
with the talent like Kayleb Williams as we've been discussing, Yes,
I think they can be.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
I think that they did not necessarily set themselves up
in the best way that they could have. I think
bringing back Eberflus and going with somebody like Shane Waldron,
who I think did a solid but unspectacular job in
Seattle is not the clearest path to properly developing a quarterback,
but I think it gives you a chance to So
I'm not sure I would have done what they did.
I think I might have started with the clean slate,
(34:14):
gone with an offense.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Year. Don't worry.
Speaker 6 (34:17):
Well, that's That's also part of the problem, right, is
that we've played this game out so many times in Chicago,
where a previous regime drafts a quarterback, they fall short
in year one, that regime gets fired, and then this
guy that you drafted in the first round is starting
with his second staff and his second offensive system in
two years. I've seen that song, heard that song so
(34:38):
many times. It's happened twice in the last two times,
the bearst of quarterbacks in the first round. It happened
with mister Bisky and the John Fox regime. It happened
with Justin Fields and the Matt nag regime. And you're
setting yourself your quarterback up for failure if you do that.
So I think they are one step closer to that
eventuality than they would have been if they had started
over with their head coach this year. I don't think
that Eberfus is on the same sort of hot seat
(35:00):
at a John Fox or a Matt Nage were where
they almost picked those quarterbacks out of desperation for their
own jobs. To a certain extent, this feels different than that,
But I also don't think it's the perfect circumstances from
an infrastructure standpoint. I think the players they put around
him are very good, But from an infrastructure standpoint, I
don't think it is a perfect set of circumstances for
(35:20):
a young quarterback.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So staying in the division, Justin Jefferson just signed a
massive contract extension, most money ever for a receiver. You've
covered Justin Jefferson, You've written about Justin Jefferson. You had
a story a few years ago defensive backs described covering
him with a quote, his body lies to you.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Describe what that means.
Speaker 6 (35:47):
I was always fascinated by this because I just felt
like he moved a little bit differently than other guys
at the position. And he's six ' one, but when
I stand, I'm five to eleven, justin Jefferson six to one,
and he stood next to him outside of the Vikings facility,
And even though he's only two inches taller than me,
his hip bone was about four inches higher than mine was.
(36:09):
So he's six ' one with these extremely long legs.
So when you're trying to figure out why he's moving
a certain way as a dB, he's chewing up so
much space so fast for a six to one guy
because his strides are insanely long. But because he's still
only six ' one and his center of gravity is
fairly low, he's able to change direction in a way
(36:32):
that is different than somebody with that stride length. So
that combination, he just moves differently than most guys who
are built like he is at that height at the position.
So there's really no way to understand when he's going
to throttle down when he's going to change direction, and
it makes it really really difficult to predict his movements.
And I think that we've seen that from DB's consistently
(36:54):
that just get absolutely cooked by him in open space
because they have no idea where he's going, and because he's.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Been injured, we forget how he is probably the best
receiver on football, like not everything you just said is true.
And then throw on top of that, he might have
the best hands in football, like that that Buffalo catch, Well,
that's if he makes all the fame. That's one of
the clips still show right, like that was a Hall
of Fame catch and throw by Kirk, like that whole
whole sequence and then getting that game. So yeah, I
(37:20):
love the fact that they are setting up their rookie
same as you guys with the Bears. It's like you're
setting your team up right with the rookie QB with
you know, an all pro receiver. I mean, the Bears
happened to maybe have three, but they guaranteed right now
in Vikings they have one. So you know, all the
stuff about them trying to move to the Jets, was
that real? Like the Jets were really trying to get
(37:41):
him off the Vikings. Was that real or was that
just draft talk? Did that really actually happen?
Speaker 6 (37:46):
The Vikings were never going to trade him. Okay, they
were never going to trade him. I mean, it's the
entire point of doing what the Vikings have done over
the last couple of years, moving off of a contract
like Kirk Cousins and moving on to a rookie quarterback
contract is to balance the deals that you're going to
hand out at other positions. So the way that the
Vikings have conceived of this, if you think about the
(38:08):
way that some teams who are often drafting a quarterback,
they have to spend after getting the quarterback because their
teams are so bad and they have so much cap
space that the only way to kind of take advantage
of that rookie quarterback contract is to spend in free
agency or via trades over the year or two after
you draft that quarterback. With the Vikings, they felt good
enough about their infrastructure, two high level starting tackles, the
(38:30):
best wide receiver in the league, one of the best
best catching tight ends in the league, and a very
good number two receiver who they drafted in the first
round last year. Their thought is we're going to pre
spend on those pieces before we get the quarterback. And
that's what they've done, and the Christian Deosov contract will
be coming here in the.
Speaker 5 (38:47):
Next year or so.
Speaker 6 (38:48):
So that was the idea, is that if we're going
to have the most expensive receiver in the league, a
top paid tight end, two top paid tackles, we can't
afford somebody like Kirk Cousins. So we need to get
onto the final financial benefits of a rookie quarterback contract.
That plan doesn't make sense without justin Jefferson, so it
was never going to happen. That was always the precedent
(39:08):
and the antecedent to what the second half of the
plan was going to look like.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
From Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
How did you know his hip bones were four inches
higher than your hip bones?
Speaker 5 (39:18):
I had him stand next to me, you did, I
was curious?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, and you noticed, like you noticed that his hips
were much higher? Like how do you even see that?
Speaker 6 (39:30):
I stood next to him, and I like, just where
is his hip boat? I literally hip to hip stood
next to him. So the Viking, I mean, this is
like inside baseball, but though oftentimes the interviews will happen
right outside of the door to their facilities. So guys
will come off the practice field, he'll sit on a
little like cobblestone rate like bench area and you just talk.
(39:50):
And so we were sitting there having that conversation in person,
and I said, can you stand up for me for
a second, And we just went hip to hip and
I wanted to see how long his legs were because
I wanted to see if the theory that his legs
were insanely long for six to one person was correct.
And that was really the only way of doing it
field research.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Simon, can you name the fastest growing ticketing app in
the United States?
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Game Time?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
That's right, It's game Time. I love Game Time for
two reasons. First, they still sponsor this show. Second, I
use game Time all the time. They have amazing last
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(40:58):
you feel like you watch football differently than other people
on Sunday?
Speaker 6 (41:01):
Yes, I mean different than somebody who's just watching the
game as a fan would watch. But I don't think
differently than analysts would watch, you know, I don't. I've
never pretended to be a person who has like this
exceptional x's and oh's football knowledge. I didn't play football
after high school. I've done my best to learn about
the game from people who know it best, talking to coaches,
(41:24):
talking to players, you know, watching videos, reading books, watching clinics.
But I'm not somebody who sees the game and understands
route concepts and progressions and all of that stuff like
former players are like really in tune analysts too. But
I think that I'm watching it differently than a general
fan would, just because I'm trying to pay attention to
what was the formation on this play, what was the
(41:45):
motion like on this play, how did they line up,
what was the personnel grouping?
Speaker 5 (41:49):
Things like that.
Speaker 6 (41:50):
But that's more just because I want to be in
tune with those things for my job, not because I
have some preternatural ability to see the game in a
way that other people can't.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Now, I know Chad will love this.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
I just love schedule of talk and my my biggest thing,
I just want to get it because again, and we
talked Bears a little bit, but you know, our guy
Evan was telling us the Bears and Pittsburgh they don't
play a single divisional game until week eleven?
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Like, what is your view on that? Is that is
that beneficiary too?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
I mean again, you guys, I mean Jayed talk about
I think you guys.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Have one of the harder division of football.
Speaker 4 (42:22):
I don't know if you agree where you talked a
little bit about there with Minnesota, Jordan Love up and
coming already know Destroit's incredible.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
What is with that, like Pittsburgh and Bears.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Is that advantage for these two teams that have new
quarterbacks that they don't play divisional games until week eleven?
Speaker 6 (42:34):
That's crazy if it's an advantage or a disadvantage, because
I think that there are other teams. The Vikings are
going to be a different team after Halloween than they're
going to be before Halloween, and I do think that.
You know, we've seen teams really hit their stride at
different points in the year. You know, the Lions, their offense,
you can set your watch to it. But the defense,
they've thrown out different sort of strategies. They've had different
(42:55):
identities throughout the season. So I would want to play
better teams I think. I think earlier in the year
before they can crystallize a little bit that's based on nothing,
but if there might be no information that backs that
up whatsoever. But I just hear certain personnel people and
coaches that have over the years have just said to me,
you're not the team you're gonna be until Thanksgiving. You're
(43:16):
not the team you're gonna be til Thanksgiving. That's just
hard for me to get out of my mind as
I'm thinking about the league more anecdotally. But I'm sure
in the end it doesn't really matter. You know, it's
more just a quirk of it than anything else. But
if your season takes a turn for the worst or
you haven't found yourself and these other teams kind of
settle into who they're going to be in the back
half of the year.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
Having to go.
Speaker 6 (43:37):
Through that brutal division slate all at once in that
stretch of the calendar. I mean that doesn't sound fun.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
Yeah, And as someone that also has you know, a
decent amount of listeners during the NFL season, I love
to hear review on you know, what it's like to
have like a huge popular show during the NFL season?
Speaker 3 (43:53):
What positives you like about it? Were the negatives of it? Like?
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I mean, as someone that we do this, I can
tell you I can't even go.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
I can't even when we win.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
I don't like reading people's comments because it's like you
don't want them blowing smoke, right, and then you also
don't want to be someone telling you you're like the
worst person in the world. So I would love to
review what to like have such a huge show during
the season.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Oh how huge the show is? I appreciate you guys
framing it that way, but.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
If I know it's gotta be a semi big I uh.
Speaker 6 (44:18):
The first thing I would say is the number one
emotion that I feel about all of this all the
time is gratitude. I feel so insanely lucky to have
a consistent audience and to have built an audience of
any size because I don't think I'm special.
Speaker 5 (44:34):
I don't think I'm.
Speaker 6 (44:35):
More talented or more entertaining, or more knowledgeable than anybody
that tries to do this. So the fact that I've
been able to or we've been able to carve out
even a small set of people who are going to
listen to the show is still insane to me, and
I'll take it every single time. On the other side
of it, I think the only real thing that I
think about in season compared to out of season is
it's frustrating sometimes feeling like you're on the hamster wheel
(44:56):
a little bit, where you are almost kind of you're
constantly reacting to and then predicting what's going to happen
in the next week. And the NFL schedule in the
NFL season is so unique in that way, and college
football's like this too, where there are so few games
that you're almost you're tied to the schedule in a
way that you're not with some of these other sports.
Right Like if you're talking about the NBA or baseball,
(45:19):
every game, the sky isn't falling or a team isn't
the greatest thing that's ever happened. So I think that
you can kind of ride with the narratives, and they're
a little bit slower developing than they are in the NFL,
where if you have three good games in a row
and then you're Dak Prescott and you throw three picks
and that week I'm talking about how good Dak Prescott is,
there's going to be a very loud subsect to people
(45:41):
on the internet who are like, what are you talking about?
He played the garbage last week, and it's like, well, guys,
there's more than four games, like yeah, and then there's
let's take a step back here and think about this
more holistically. So that's the only thing that I think
is a little bit frustrating is that it's really really
hard to not cover the league with those sort of
vacillations and over the first month of the year. I mean,
I'm sure you know this and you feel this. It's
(46:03):
hard to talk about the NFL for the first four
weeks of the year because you have no idea what's
real and what's not. So you watch something happen in
week one and you think, oh man, this team is great,
and then three weeks later you're like, I can't believe
I said that. I hope that they burn the tapes
of me saying that. So it's just a different sort
of beast when it comes to the way the season unfolds,
(46:25):
the way the season plays out, because the games are
just different than they are in other sports.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Robert, I do want to thank you for coming on.
It's been great to have you on. You know, we
love The Athletic Football Show and I'm looking forward to
it in the fall and every week. Actually, be sure
to check out Robert Mays every single week on his
terrific podcast, The Athletic Football Show. As a reminder, the
(46:54):
favorite podcast is presented by Bet three six five. Bet
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(47:15):
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(47:37):
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Speaker 2 (47:46):
Feedback is a gift until next time.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com