January 4, 2024 • 51 mins
Part 1 of this throwback podcast leaves off in 1985, when Ben Crenshaw convinces Bill Coore to partner up. In part 2, we get them through some lean years, making a name for themselves in Maui, and tell the story of striking pay dirt and pink flags in the sand hills of Nebraska.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
At the time the sand Hills came along, most of
the courses being built in the world were demographically driven.
The principle was you had to have population to support
the courses, and the courses went where people wanted to go.
Dick flipped that one hundred and eighty degrees built a
(00:25):
course where the average population is two people per square mile.
He was doing the well the proverbial field of dreams.
You don't know the logo on the fire nobody getting tied.
(00:51):
This is the fire pit with Matt Chenella.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome Back, Settle in episode seven is more on the
partnership that I considered the best in the era of
modern minimalist golf course architecture. Bill Core and Ben Crenshaw
are currently building their thirtieth course in thirty five years
of working together. The two stories we tell today are
about the Kapitalua Plantation Course on Maui and sand Hills
(01:17):
in Nebraska. Both have had significant impact on their careers
as well as golf in America. In episode six, Part
one of Core and Crenshaw, we told the story of
Bill and Ben's early influences as it relates to course design,
how they met, who was involved, and why they decided
to team up. We left off in nineteen eighty five.
(01:40):
Bill cor of a small town in North Carolina, already
had worked for Pete Dye and had worked on or
built three courses, all in Texas, Waterwood, National, King's Crossing
and Rockport Country Club.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And knew I like certain courses and certain yeah. Thanks,
And I'd try to figure out why, but I really
wasn't that much into it. And when I saw what
Pete was doing, a little public course called O Colum
in high Point, I just said, Gee, this is different.
I wonder how you do this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Meanwhile, Ben Crenshaw was the Master's champion in nineteen eighty four,
and in nineteen eighty five Ben had married Julie. He
had started working with Scottie Sayers, a lifetime friend who
became his business manager. And physically he had health issues
which was causing problems both on and off the course.
And yet after meeting Bill and walking Rockport Country Club,
(02:34):
he had decided he found a guy who shared the
same design philosophies. Bill Corr was the partner Ben needed
to build golf courses.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It was just unbelievable how this happened. Nineteen eighty five.
Nineteen eighty five is when Wade decided to make a
go at this, and that was the year I married Julie.
So I made two really good decisions.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
But it was Bill who resisted the idea of partnering
with someone for the sake of a name.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
We wasn't really interested, you know, I can understand that.
And when it finally it came around and said, you know,
maybe we could give this a go.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Which brings us back to the end of nineteen eighty five, Bill,
Ben and Scotti were in on this partnership. Julie Crenshaw
still had her doubts.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
And I was like, are you sure you want to
do this? You know, because he was struggling with his health,
struggling with his game. We just got married.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We weren't even certain he was ever going to play
competitive golf again.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Having been told for a few years and by several
potential clients that they liked his work, but that if
he partnered with a recognizable name, it would help sell
the finished product. Core was already noticing that Crenshaw was
getting their team seats at bigger and better meetings, and
there was even some interest from national media.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Ben new and I knew Ron Whitten, whom you've known
for so many years, who was the architectural editor of
Golf Digest. Ron Whitten came to Austin to interview us
for a story to do about this partnership we had found.
Now obviously that story, the whole foundation of it is
(04:25):
Ben's reputation and background and playing career. And here he is,
he's going to get involved in this design partnership. But
Ron Witten comes in with a tape recorder and we're
going to have this interview. He turns a tape recorder on,
he lays it on the table and the first question
(04:47):
he asked is, so you formed this design partnership. What's
the name of the company. And there's just silence. We
had never talked about it. I'm not sure i'd ever
th aught about it. Ben is the one who spoke
up and he said the name of the company is
Core and Crenshaw. There was no reason not to put
(05:09):
Bill up front.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
He's the man.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And you know, I'll tell you what. Even to this day,
Bill leads our team. He's the leader. When he asked later,
I remember asking him after us, how did you come
up with that? It's an alphabetic order, but it sounds better.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Ben makes a good point. Core and Crenshaw sounds better
than Crenshaw and Core. But I asked Ben when he
says Bill is the leader, what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Interest supersedes length? And yeah, the whole world is enamored
with link. But interest is what I saw in Rockport
Country Club.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
He Die Roy, Die, Rod Whitman, Jack Nicholas, Dave Carry,
Charlie Bellair, Mike McKay and Jerry Scrooge Clark were all
key to this match, which one developer predicted would be
a quote disaster, had to start. He actually looked smart.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We started two projects. That was our goal, to try
to do two courses at once, you know, at the
same time if anyone would ever hire us. We weren't
sure that was ever going to happen, but it did.
We began two projects. Neither one of them were completed.
Both of them we actually had holes roughed and ready
(06:39):
for irrigation, and they both fell by the way during
the savings and loan crisis of the late nineteen eighties.
And in the process of that we committed to two
other projects and lo and behold, the same thing happened.
(07:00):
So we spent the first two years of our partnership
producing zero nothing. I guess it was maybe a year
and a half, or could have been two years after.
He wrote the initial piece for Golf Digest, and in
it he said that we were the only two people
that ever formed a design partnership and then immediately retired
(07:21):
because that's what it looked like we had done. We
produced nothing. The cupboard was a little bear.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Of the four courses they started. The first was in Austin,
which was called Uplands, the second in Magnolia. They had
shaped eleven greens before they stopped the project. Almost thirty
years later. That property became blue Jack National and Tiger
Woods Design. The third corn crunch on Missfire, was in Baltimore,
(07:49):
and the fourth was in Colorado, two miles from where
they'd eventually build the Colorado Golf Club. I asked Bill
if the start stops were important to getting them where
they needed to go as a team.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I can't truthfully say I've ever given it thought about
it in that way, but instantly my reaction is yes,
it was a very in spite of the fact to
how frustrating and difficult it was. It gave us the
opportunity to spend time together on sites, with the guys
(08:21):
with you in the process of shaping in holes and
going from concepts to on the ground, you know, reality,
and it was invaluable, you know, looking back on it,
(08:42):
in some ways, it could very well have been the
best thing that could have happened.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Back in the late eighties, Ben had a full time
job on the PGA Tour. In nineteen eighty eight, he
had ten top tens. He won Durau finished top twenty
in all four majors, which included a fourth at the
mass Sters Bills on the income was building golf courses
and he needed a win. He found one doing a
(09:07):
solo project in France.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
The company had to do a loan, and I'll assure
you that loan was underwritten not by my financial statement.
It was a boy bends and instead that we could
stay in business and and the other part of that, Matt,
you're correct. I went to went to France. We did
a golf course in Bordeaux. Golf maydoc for a guy
(09:31):
who became such a good friend through the years, Bernard
Pascasio and me.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Perception of golf and then mine, I both like tradition
and golf course you know in the like Millfield in Scotlan,
or Pine Valley or sey Presspine, uh which all the
(09:58):
same thing, approvissiable for the amateur and competitive for the
professional player.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Bernard Pascasio dipped in and out of the European Tour
from nineteen seventy one to nineteen eighty nine. He won
fifteen tournaments in France and played in nine World Cups.
The Chateau Course at Gulf Demydoc opened in nineteen eighty
nine and is considered one of the best courses in
France to this day. It remains the only cores or
(10:27):
corep in Crenshaw design in Europe.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Bill is a real strategy genius and respective of Natvia,
Bill is honest and I respect him very much. I
am proud and happy to know him and the best
(10:51):
in friend.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Back in Texas and still in the eighties they had
another bike. Scottis's stepfather was helping develop Barton Creek in Austin.
The first course went to Tom Fazio Corn Crenshaw. We're
on deck.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
It was an average piece of property and I think
Ben and Bill did a great job, and there were
environmental concerns all along the way that slowed that project
down and really delayed that job where it actually opened.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
After Kapalua kappoloua resort on Maui's north shore, was building
more golf. Mark Roffing, affectionately known as Mister Hawaii and
prior to working for NBC in the Golf Channel, was
put in charge.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
I got involved in the plantation development and kind of
took the lead role in putting together the golf part
of the Colin Cameron, who was the chairman of Mallyland
and Pineapple Company, they put in the land. We did
a joint venture and he said, you're responsible for the golf,
you figure out how to do it. So off I
went interviewing golf course architects and had no idea what
(12:00):
I was wanting from them, because I had no idea
really what I wanted.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It was.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
It was kind of a blind leading the blind in
a little bit of a way, and uh, you know,
somehow I started talking to Ben Frenshaw.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It was a.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Seminal uh golf course in our in our career, and
you know, and just amazing happened to coincide with my
marriage as well.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's got all these other.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Dimensions and it and it was as the piece of
property that I saw first.
Speaker 6 (12:33):
And he told me about this relationship that he had
developed with Bill Core said, you've got to meet this man.
You have got to meet this man.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Ben was was that Coppolo, He and Julie and he
called and he said, Bill, there's a there's a site here.
I think we should consider, uh, you know, working with
And I remember asking him on the phone, I said,
what does it look like? Ben?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I saw it that saw playlantation fields out there of
pineapple everywhere, absolutely gorgeous. And he, Milt said what does
it look like? And I said, well, it looks like
land gently rising from the sea.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I'd never been there, I hadn't seen it, but somehow
rising gently from the sea conjured up images in my
mind that didn't quite match what I saw when I
first got there and went out with Mark Roffing. We're
standing out there where now the clubhouse, basically where the
(13:35):
clubhouse is now. I was looking backward up the hill
where at the eighteenth toll is now, looking down the hill,
you know, as well, towards where the first hole is,
and I'm just I'm speechless. I just God, it's got
a lot of elevation changes the slope and it's beautiful,
(13:56):
It's stunningly beautiful. But I just didn't know quite what
to say other than I finally I looked at at
Mark and I said, Mark, when you and Ben were here?
And he called me. I said, what were you doing?
And he said, we brought a couple of coronas and
(14:19):
we watched the sunset. And I couldn't help it, Matt,
I just said, well, Mark, I hate to ask this question,
but how many coronas did you go? Hey out?
Speaker 6 (14:39):
It took me about ten minutes before I fell in
love with Bill Corr And from that day on it
was like, you know, talking to the same person. I
remember asking Bill, you know what's going to happen if
you and Ben aren't here at the same time, and
he said, it doesn't matter. When you're talking to me,
you're talking to him. When you're talking to him, you're
talking to me. And boy was he right.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And when you get on the hop or parts of
the property, there's there's just the most beautiful sites and place.
It's a big part of the dimension of how how
the property climbs and then goes back down towards the clubhouse.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You know, for anyone who's been there, five hundred feet
elevation change between the seventeenth t and the like the
second Green, And so we would we'd be out there
working and I just couldn't help it. But almost every
opportunity I got when Ben was there, I would just
somehow say, you know, this is so so good. It's
(15:38):
so easy to work with. It just rises gently from
the sea.
Speaker 6 (15:43):
They made you believe that they were going to come
up with something that really fit the place, and they did.
You got to remember, too, there was a big tournament
going on here then.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
So for their.
Speaker 6 (15:55):
First real project, not only did they have an elevator
change of over four hundred feet seven hundred acres, they
had to play a PGA Tour event on it. That
is a very difficult combination of elements and sort of
ingredients and what had to be cooked up. But it
never phased him. And you know, every time Bill would
(16:18):
scratch his head, Ben would smile and laugh, and I
knew they would figure it out.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
A couple of a plantation opened in nineteen ninety one
and has been the host of the PGA Tours Century
Tournament of champions since nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
It had to be a golf course with the enormous
scale in terms of the size of the features, the fairways,
the greens to be just to be playable. We look
back and just go, you know, it's different. It's a
very different type of golf course. And I have to say,
(16:54):
even today, thirty years later or whatever, I don't think
we would have done it different.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I asked Mark Ralfing, what would have happened to Corn
Crenshaw if they didn't beat out guys like Palmer, Nicholas
and Fazzio for the plantation job.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
Ben and Bill's business was a fledgling business at the time.
As you say, they've been at it a couple of times.
I think this was a critical time for them, and
had the plantation project fallen through for whatever reasons, you know,
a recession or you know, the Gulf War, if we
hadn't got in ahead of that, who knows, I think
(17:30):
their careers could have been decidedly different.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
A funny thing about that is early in the company's history,
as we were doing the course for Mark Graffing, Mark
offered us. You know, at that time, our fee I
think was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and Mark said, well,
we'll either give you your fee or you can have
a lot here. Well, we had a bank loan to
(17:54):
pay off, and Ben and Bill and I wanted to
take a salary, and we had some employees to pay
at that time, so we took the money and I
think that lot so for about five million dollars.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
That was one of the most enjoyable times of my
entire career, broadcast or anything else. I just loved working
with Ben and Bill. And you know, when they came
in and started this Matt there was no Core and
Crenshaw style. You know, there was no sand Hills, there
was no friars Head, there was no Old Sandwich. So
(18:27):
you didn't know what the style was going to be.
And the thing I loved about him was I think
part of their theories evolved through the plantation for us.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
So that's sort of landmark number one of the Core
Crenshaw events. Kapitalua really brought attention to us. The phone
started ringing in the office. People were talking about golf
courses and I'm not sure where Dick Young's cap actually
heard about us or what we were doing, but he
started coming around in about nineteen ninety two, and we
(19:00):
were just wondering, what, you know, what is this guy
thinking about doing a course up in the middle of Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Dick Young's Cap was a developer from Lincoln, Nebraska, who
in nineteen ninety was offered a deal on eight acres
of land in Mullen, population four hundred and sixty three.
Young's cap had a hunch and a vision. Now he
needed money and someone to build a golf course. Core
and Crenshaw weren't a hard sell. Others had their doubts.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Ben and Scottie and I were all in the office.
That doesn't happen very often, but we were all there.
Dick gets on the phone and he introduces himself and
he's he's talking about this property that's he's looking at
in Nebraska, And instantly he says, Nebraska. I'm thinking, you know,
(19:53):
flat probably maybe maybe not the most interesting property in
the world. Uh likely. And then Dick very quickly says
it's in an area called the sand Hills in Nebraska.
Light bulbs going matt for me and for Ben.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I had a magazine that I had subscribed to and
it was it was a It was an artist it
was a Texas artist magazine, and in in this thing
it did a layout on the cattle ranches of Nebraska.
(20:35):
I kept looking at these old photos and I said, got,
it looked just like Britain in Ireland and Scotland rolling
sand hills sand Hills of Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
As for Bill, he first met ron Whitten in the
late seventies back in Huntsville, Texas. Went Still, an assistant
district attorney, was writing a book about golf course architecture
and stopped in at Waterwood.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I said something about, what's the best land for golf
you've ever seen? He said in Nebraska. I got Nebraska,
And what are you talking about? He said, Bill, There's
a place called Sandhills in Nebraska. He said, It's just
some of the most magnificent land for golf I have
ever seen anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And then in the late eighties, Bill was at Prairie
Dunes in Kansas walking with Doug Peterson, who was the
superintendent at the time.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I was walking down the eighth fairway with Doug and
looking at those heaving contours in the dunes. That Perry
mix will just lay that incredible that hole on And
I said to Doug. I said, Doug, can you imagine
having a piece of property like this to work with?
And I remember distinctly mad Doug looked at me and
(21:51):
he goes, Bill, I know where there's land better than this.
And I'm looking at him, go what what are you
talking about? How can anything be better than this? He said, well,
maybe it's not better, it's just more of it. And
he said into sand Hills and Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, needless to say, Bill was in.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Let's go see it. Let's let's go see it. So yeah,
Ben and Scottie and I all went up there to
get our first look at what would become sand Hills
Golf Club.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
We flew up and we could tell from North Platte.
We kind of cast our eyes up to the north.
I said, God, a mighty look at these dunes or
dunes everywhere. And so he took us up in this
helicopter and it was the damned this site the rest
of the day, and looking at all this property, we're going,
(22:45):
oh my god, it's so vast. We had no idea,
and Dick wanted us to go up north, which was
gotten forty five miles up north of North Platte. And
we're seeing great ground wherever we looked. So we couldn't
figure that out.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
But we had never seen anything like it. Man, the
everywhere you looked, you just felt like, this is just incredible.
It's incredible wild on Earth? Has this not become a
golf mecca.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It wasn't exactly love at first sight for all of
Team Corn Crunshaw.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Scotty went with us up there to meet Dick Young's
cap to look at this site. Where Scotty got they
had a van and admittedly, as Ben said, there's a
helicopter there. So Ben and I'm getting this helicopter. Now
we're flying all over We're not talking about a mile
or two, We're talking many miles, looking at all these
different dunes, and we land and then we get out.
(23:46):
Dick youngerscap is in the van with Scotty in the
back and they're trying to keep up with us in
the helicopter.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
And so about seven of us get back in this
suburban and Ben and Bill flow off the helicopter and
we spent the next six hours chasing bening Bell in
the helicopter, going all over Nebraska. It seemed like and
in the meantime, the picnic basket was in the back
(24:14):
of the van with me, and about five hundred flies
had gotten into the van, and I'm just thinking, boy,
this day has got to get over with pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Ben I was really excited. We're looking at all these dudes.
Poor Scotti is trying not to get sick in the
back of the car, going around, up and down over
the fields. So here's impressions when you talk to him
of the introduction to the sandials would be quite different
than ours.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
I'll never forget it.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Those are the big, biggest menus flies I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Poor Scotti. The best was yet to come.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I tormented Scotti.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I said, look, Scotty said, we'll do this for nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It just Scott He said, oh no, we can't do that.
Phil Bill.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
When we got Bill and I got there, our minds
started tournament and how are we going to make this
work where PEPs can think we're crazy going all the
way up from North platte forty miles is why isn't
it closer to civilization? All these questions.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So Young's cap had his answer to who was going
to build the golf course? But the time he had
to raise the money to pay for both the land
and the golf had an expiration date. Meanwhile, Mike Kaiser,
recycled greeting cards in Chicago, was on a similar path
to remote, sand based minimalism. Kaiser had built The Dunes Club,
(25:43):
a nine hole, private but non pretentious hang in New Buffalo, Michigan,
and he had found a stretch of gorse choked dunes
along the southwest coast of Oregon.
Speaker 7 (25:53):
So round Whitten from Golf that just said, Mike, get
on mind. I'm going to introduce you to Dick Youngscalp,
because I like what you've done here at the Dunes Club,
which is built on sand, and I've got this guy
who's got this great site and you should.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Talk to him.
Speaker 7 (26:09):
So I ended up talking to Dick Youngscap. I don't
remember if he called me, which I think is the case.
And Dick said, I need a money guy, and I said,
you know, I've already bought land in Abandon and I'm
trying to assemble the money and the courage to build
out there. And you've got this remote site in Mullet, Nebraska,
(26:30):
and you want me to double down with two highly
speculative adventures.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I'll tell you what I know.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
You're going to buy the land, and I'll be part
of your partnership that is buying the land. But you've
got to find someone to help you pay for sand Hills.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Jim Simons was that guy. Young's Cap was originally allocated
one thousand acres along the Dismal River. Simons would take
the other seven acres for ranching. But the fundraising didn't
start at the land. Fresh off the success of the
plantation course, Mark Rolfing was back in the mix, and.
Speaker 6 (27:07):
They kept saying to me, we'd like to get you involved,
and I just really had no interest. I thought it
was one of the stupidest ideas I'd ever heard of,
a private club in the middle of Nebraska.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Dick is a.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Single minded individualist. I mean, they don't make any more
people like Dick Young's Cap. He possesses very strong opinions.
He knows what he wants. He's an architect. He's a
building architect by trade, so he has some semblance of
building things and he has his opinions. But I cannot
(27:46):
tell you what a gift that he gave us in
the opportunity to do something that had never been tried.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Really, I mean, the.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Most remote location that anybody could ever think of.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
But in a way I felt a little obligated in Matt,
I think, And finally I let them talk me into
going up there. One day we flew up from Austin, Texas,
three of us being Bennett, Bill, and looked at the property.
And I'll never forget walking out there with young Scap
and three or four other guys.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
And looking at this thing.
Speaker 6 (28:26):
And Ben was saying, Kay, you just see you know
these hole look at how these holds are just gonna lay.
I couldn't see anything. I looked in every direction, and
all I kept saying was where's the hotel going to go?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know what?
Speaker 6 (28:43):
Okay, howbout the condos? Where we're gonna build the condos?
And as we started talking more and more I realized
that that was not what they had in mind at all,
And then I thought, what am I doing here?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Very early on, you become aware that the site is
so good that if you don't produce one of the
world's outstanding out you failed. It said. You know, there's
some sites you get that are you know, you don't
(29:16):
have to do very much to to make them far
far better than what you expect. But the sand Hills
there was great potential there to go the wrong way,
and we knew it. And and that was mostly tied
into what you said, the fact that you could build
a hole, you could go in so many directions. At
first glance, or even after it being unter for days
(29:38):
and days, you begin to think you can go in
any direction until you launch off and start walking through
those dunes and realizing what you think is pretty calm ground,
Suddenly you just disappear, I mean in huge valleys and
holes and big ridges, and uh so it's it's not
like you just could go in any direction, but she
(30:01):
certainly had huge numbers of options. I have to say.
The one and the one thing that's kind of, I
don't know, kind of gotten me a few times is
I've heard people say, oh, you could build holes anywhere,
it didn't matter where you put them. NI could just
each build them anywhere. It would have been just as good.
(30:24):
I'm not sure that's the case.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
Man, I'll never get Ben and I went up to
the public course in Mullin, about ten miles to the
to the north that day, and we went up there
to meet some of the local folks and saw the sign.
When we went in, it was great. It said nine
holes five dollars, nine hole course nine holes five dollars,
eighteen holes three dollars. So I asked the kid in
(30:47):
the shop, I said, how can it be cheaper to
play eighteen holes than nine holes? And he said, we're
trying to encourage play, and that's fabulous. I fell in
love with I fell in love with sand Hills that day,
and it's just a marvel. And when I saw the budget,
(31:08):
but what I realized what we were going to do
was build a golf course and a clubhouse at sand
Hills for less money than we spent on the cart paths,
just the cart paths at the plantation course, I said, wow,
how can I turn this down? So it was really
an amazing project.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
The deal gets done, there's going to be golf in Mullen.
But it meant a lot to Young's cap that this
was well received by the locals. Here's more from Core.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
The coal trains. I mean, I can't hundreds of cars
I think on the coal trains that are probably kind
of from Wholming back towards Chicago and they go through
right through Mullen, Nebraska. And I was seeing there waiting
one day. It just stopped waiting as the train just
eached by, it seemed, knowing that it was going to
(31:58):
be a long long time. And I saw a fellow
in the pickup truck behind me, and he got out
of his truck and he walked up next to the
truck I was in. He just kind of looked at
me and he smiled and said, you must be one
of the golf course fellas. And I said, yes, sir,
I am. He said, well, I reckon, you'll be building
(32:22):
something out there. It looks like what we see on
television with water, green grass, trees. I said, no, sir,
I don't think you'll see any water. I don't think
you'll see a tree unless it just happens to be
a volunteer that's there. And I don't think you'll see
very much green grass. I said. It'll be green of
(32:45):
a shade, but more like all aver, you know, green,
than bright green. I said. It's just not the way
we would envision something happening out here in these dunes.
And he goes, no water, no trees, no water, no trees,
no bright green? Right no, no, right, I like that.
(33:09):
I like that. And he turned around. He walked back
and he got in this truck. That was probably my
first time of thinking, you know, this place is so special,
but we really need to do something here, not just
for golf, but something that, if at all possible, will
make these these folks proud that it's there.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
In order to share his vision with the locals, Young's cap,
whose brother in law was a rancher in the area,
went as far as putting pictures of courses like Royal
County down of Northern Ireland in storefront windows throughout Mullen.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
That these people thought we were came from Mars or
something you're going to do out here. You know, it's
basically cattle grazing, and they're very dependent, the very proud
of the way that they live and they work. But gently,
you know, through Dick Young's Cap and his his relatives,
(34:11):
you know, had to talk to the local people and say, look,
these people are okay, don't you know it's gonna work
out fun. We were gently sort of embraced. But man,
they mean so much to us because they brought us in.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
They didn't have to, and who doesn't love a story
about pink flags in the prairie.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was by myself walking out in the dunes on
the right on what is now the tenth fairway at
San Dials Golf Club. But I was just walking my
blue jeans and boots, and I had a bundle of
the surveyor flags and they were bright fuchia pink, and
so I could see them well and if I found
(34:56):
a certain situation for what the felt like an interesting
green site or a te site followed by a landing
area in the green site. Just I was just flagging
and I'm making little notations on a piece of paper
I had. But so I'm standing there with a bouquet
of bright light, and up over the done ridge from
(35:19):
the valley comes a herd of cattle. I don't know
how many. I didn't try to count them, but there
was There had to have been at least one hundred
and fifty or two hundred head of cattle coming right
up over the dune ridge where I was. And they
rode up. First of all, I'm staying there, the cattle
coming completely surround me. I am just I'm like the
(35:43):
hole in a doughnut of cattle. And they slowly weave
through the cattle and come up to me, and one
guy looks at me, just what are you doing? I said, well,
to tell you the truth, I'm looking for golf holes.
Matt the guy who's like a scene out of the movie.
(36:04):
This guy leans over in his saddle, he looks at me,
he looks at the pink flags, he looks back at
his three companions there, and he just he says, man's
looking for golf holes. They all kind of look at
me like I'm just some lunatic, of course, and he goes, well,
(36:26):
good luck to you, fellow, and off they go.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Not sure how much luck Core neated, but believe it
or not, he needed more land.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Here we are, we're out here on a thousand acres man,
and we lay out the golf course. We were look ever.
We think we're pretty happy. And then one day Ben
I both go out there and we start looking just
a little a little further out, and we didn't know
quite where the thousand acre boundary was, but we go
out there and board, you know, that looks pretty good
over there. Let's walk over there and see what that
(36:58):
could look like. We got over there and got, yeah,
that looks pretty nank. You could go over here, and
then you could go and he ended up being a
kind of a not really triangle but kind of an
odd shaped piece back there, and we just immediately changed
the routing and put our holes out there. And obviously
we weren't doing any construction. But Dick comes out probably
(37:20):
the next day, and he comes out and we said, Dick,
we're gonna we want to go out here and there,
and he just stands there and he goes, that's not
on our ground. That's on the ground that it gave
the gym simes, that's not on our and he basically said,
(37:41):
how on earth can you not get eighteen holes a
thousand figures ground.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Young's cap got that land, Corn Crenshaw got the ultimate routing.
Mike Kaiser got a low score.
Speaker 7 (37:56):
I had certainly been invited many times that I did
not go, as I was going to Man and was
trying to figure out what to do with that. So
I didn't see sand Hills until I went there with
three friends to play an inaugural round and basically a
preview round. The course was probably putting at six. It's
down the stip meter.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
So it was really new.
Speaker 7 (38:18):
And little did I know until that day that slow
greens are a lot easier to put on man, You
know this than the greens that are primed and go
in twelve. So I actually shot a seventy three, my
all time best score, and my first and lasting impression
of sand Hills was that's where I shot at seventy
three on this totally natural sand sand hills in Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
And that was also Kaiser's first impression of corn.
Speaker 7 (38:46):
Crenshaw, Boy, did they do a masterful job in as
much as they didn't seem to have touched anything. You know,
you've heard that they found one hundred and twenty holes
and had trouble going it down to eight running and
down to eighteen. What I didn't know, and that was
their claim, is they didn't move much sand. It was
obvious to my foursome, we're all ad and knowledgeable golfers,
(39:08):
that this was a defined minimalism.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
As for Crenshaw, he offers more credit to Core for
the routing.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
He has a way of doing it and that's entirely natural.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
You know. He once said, he said, you know, if you.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
If you're if you're an animal, and you just follow
the way that they make these trails, and yeah, it's
maybe the path of least resistance as you go around,
and if you go by the idea of so if
you're just kind of having a walk about about a
piece of property, he has a way of doing that
(39:47):
that that it fits.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
And and you know, Matt, one of.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
The hardest things that we had to do there is
actually put the directions of the holes and where they went,
what sequence, because.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
It was dawning, because we knew we never get a
piece of property like that. Again. I remember when the
when the golf course was just about to open and
Ben and I went out to play and we were
on the uh we were we were just near the
sixteenth green, uh and just the two of us, and
I remember asking Ben, Ben, would you change anything? Do
(40:29):
you think we missed anything? Do you think what do
you think? Then he said, Bill, I wouldn't change it.
I think it's good. I like it. I like it.
And we're talking about exactly where you were, or Matt,
the flow, the sequence, the variety of the holes, the
way they fit on the on the landforms. And that
(40:52):
was without question our biggest fear going into it. And
even to this day, Man, I spent so much time
out there and both in those early years and walking
those dunes in the sight, and I have yet to
walk out there and go Wow, we should have gone
(41:13):
over there. We should have done that. We could have,
but it's just I just haven't second guessed it. And
for me, and particularly on that site, to say that
it's pretty big.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
For some final reflections, here's Mike Kaiser.
Speaker 7 (41:31):
What I would say about Dick Youngscap, who's sort of
publicity shy, oddly because he's.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Not a shy man.
Speaker 7 (41:37):
He had the courage of his convictions. He saw this
land in Mullon, Nebraska and said, I see a golf
court there and so on all the way through, and
you know, to this day when you're out there, you
scratch your head, and said, who was the brave man
who decided to put it all together in sam Hills,
especially given his background. He'd already done one with Pete
(41:58):
Dye and Lincoln and could easily have rested on his
laurels because.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
That was a very well regarded golf course.
Speaker 7 (42:05):
But nope, he found this land and Nebraska just as
I later, just as I found land and abandoned, and
decided to repurpose himself as the builder of remote golf
courses in the middle of nowhere, And boy did it
work out.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Man Mark Rawfing on why Core and Crenshaw have become
so successful.
Speaker 6 (42:26):
If you traded voices between Dick Young's Cap and Mike Kaiser,
they could almost be the same person in a lot
of ways too. They remind me a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Of each other.
Speaker 6 (42:38):
And you know, that's that's the kind of people that
Ben and Bill are attracted to, no nonsense people. And
I think when you're not taking jobs on the fly
and high risk jobs and you know, trying to you know,
do things that the environment may not dictate there, you're
(42:59):
never going to be as successful as date been. Because
they went to the right places, they were very selective,
they worked hard at it, and they deserve everything that
they've gotten out of it.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
In Part one, for Ben Crenshaw, finding Bill Corr was
about fate at sand Hills, they both needed a little faith.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
You had these people who in the you know, in
the personage of Dick Young's Cap, who wanted to do
this thing, and and it was you know, you talk
about a bold leap, putting it out there somewhere where
we all had just hoped that people would come to
(43:42):
see it and enjoyment and enjoy it because it was
something different. But the land was so blessed that we
just didn't you know, we didn't build so much there,
We just followed nature.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
There.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Here's Scottie Sayers on what sand Hills meant for business.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
And after that, the opportunities for our company exploded. I mean,
the phone was ringing all the time and we had
more and more great opportunities to build courses. And I
don't want to pick on any courses to say that
they were better than others, because there was a period
where we did Old Sandwich, we did Hidden Creek, we
(44:21):
did Austin Golf Club, we did East Hampton Golf Club,
but we did Friar Shad And so there's landmark number
three and that's another course that immediately brought us a
lot of attention because of the spectacular nature of it
and the fact that it sat on Long Island where
(44:43):
a lot of people could take a look at it.
The fourth big one for the company is abandon Getting
a chance to work for Mike Kaiser certainly changed our world,
and Mike has.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Been so good to us over the years.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
It's been as you know, Matt, we've had a chance
to be abandoned trails, we did the Preserve, we did Cabot.
Mike was a part of Lost Farm down in Tasmania
Sand Valley. And now we've got the Sheep Ranch coming along,
So you know, that relationship was kind of the fourth landmark.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And then I'd say the fifth was Pinehurst.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Crenshaw again under collection of work.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I mean, we're not prolific, We'll never be prolific, but
I don't think that some people have had some of
the best experiences that we've had working with people and
in certain environs.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
And finally I asked Bill Core if he thought they
could have ever achieved such a deep portfolio without sand Hills.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
No. No, I wouldn't say no unequivocally, but I would
say it would be extraordinarily unlikely that we could have
the sand Hills. It was such a special site that
Dick gave us, and he gave us the freedom to
(46:11):
work with that site. And yeah, Matt, we didn't know.
We didn't know. How get asked sometimes people say, oh, gee,
did you know this was going to be a watershed
event in golf architecture. No, we didn't know that. We
didn't know. We never talked about it, we never thought
about it. All we thought about is how can we
(46:33):
make the most of this site? And this opportunity we've
been given. But once it came online and it seemed
to have struck a chord, so to speak, with the
golfing world. And of course part of that was because
it was so different than what was prevalent at the time,
but it was as it just became the cornerstone of
(47:01):
people being aware that we are one in this business,
but two that we have an affinity for this type
of ground.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Do you guys have a favorite fire pit that you've
stumbled upon or use on a regular basis?
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Matt, you know, I have a My favorite happens to
be in our backyard. Uh.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
That was the best kind of fire pit.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, you know. Soon I both travel so much, well
not right now obviously, but generally so much. And yeah,
there's a fireplace in the in the back and that
we that that we like to go, uh uh to
hang out in the in the evenings. But beyond that,
it's pretty darn hard to beat the one at van,
(47:54):
you know, the one out there with the crackling fire
at night and the people around and tell their golf
stories and the you know, their adventures of the day.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yeah, Ben, I left the second that that fire pit
there Uh, it's great to see you know the the
well once again. The pleasure and you've got abandon is
it's just so ideal for a foursome or two forces
to get together to play and you know, it's chilling
at night, and that fireplace really feels good and it
(48:30):
does make all the golfers conjure up memory of the day.
It's it's it's uh, very convivial and it's the way
you in the day and you look forward to the
next one. But I agree, I agree, that's a good
one man.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
I would again, Uh and Bellish just briefly on what
Ben and said. We've been so fortunate to work with
so many wonderful clients, wonderful people, gifted sites. We've gotten
far more than our fair share to work with and
we're just very grateful. But I have to say you,
we're grateful for the time we've spent with you too.
(49:10):
I know that, I know.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
I can't believe.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I'm so glad I got this on record. Matt.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Matt, Yeah, Bill, Bill is exactly right. We we we've
enjoyed our time with you. It's great to see you,
great to talk golf with you.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Thank you again, gentlemen, I you know this is this
has been a treat and a pleasure for God's sake,
Stay safe out there. We need you guys to keep
doing what you're doing and and look forward to seeing
you out there in the dirt somewhere someday soon.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
And yeah, likewise, we help everybody safe, including you and
your family.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Sure are you looking for good value on great golf apparel?
As a listener to this point podcast, my friends John
Ashworth and Jeff Cunningham at link Soul in Oceanside, California
are offering you a twenty five percent discount on all
future orders of what I Wear all day, every day,
on and off the course. Whenever you go to linksoul
(50:15):
dot com, just use promo code matty G twenty five
m A t t y G twenty five. Thank you
for listening to the fire Pit. It's produced by Alex Upeggi.
It's edited by Rex Lint. The theme song is by
Joe Horowitz. Please rate and review this podcast on Apple
Podcasts and we might track you down and send you
(50:36):
one of our new Imperial rowpads. Got a question, comment,
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please subscribe to The fire Pit on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,
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(50:58):
You can also subscribe to work
At the time the sand Hills came along, most of
the courses being built in the world were demographically driven.
The principle was you had to have population to support
the courses, and the courses went where people wanted to go.
Dick flipped that one hundred and eighty degrees built a
(00:25):
course where the average population is two people per square mile.
He was doing the well the proverbial field of dreams.
You don't know the logo on the fire nobody getting tied.
(00:51):
This is the fire pit with Matt Chenella.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome Back, Settle in episode seven is more on the
partnership that I considered the best in the era of
modern minimalist golf course architecture. Bill Core and Ben Crenshaw
are currently building their thirtieth course in thirty five years
of working together. The two stories we tell today are
about the Kapitalua Plantation Course on Maui and sand Hills
(01:17):
in Nebraska. Both have had significant impact on their careers
as well as golf in America. In episode six, Part
one of Core and Crenshaw, we told the story of
Bill and Ben's early influences as it relates to course design,
how they met, who was involved, and why they decided
to team up. We left off in nineteen eighty five.
(01:40):
Bill cor of a small town in North Carolina, already
had worked for Pete Dye and had worked on or
built three courses, all in Texas, Waterwood, National, King's Crossing
and Rockport Country Club.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And knew I like certain courses and certain yeah. Thanks,
And I'd try to figure out why, but I really
wasn't that much into it. And when I saw what
Pete was doing, a little public course called O Colum
in high Point, I just said, Gee, this is different.
I wonder how you do this.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Meanwhile, Ben Crenshaw was the Master's champion in nineteen eighty four,
and in nineteen eighty five Ben had married Julie. He
had started working with Scottie Sayers, a lifetime friend who
became his business manager. And physically he had health issues
which was causing problems both on and off the course.
And yet after meeting Bill and walking Rockport Country Club,
(02:34):
he had decided he found a guy who shared the
same design philosophies. Bill Corr was the partner Ben needed
to build golf courses.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It was just unbelievable how this happened. Nineteen eighty five.
Nineteen eighty five is when Wade decided to make a
go at this, and that was the year I married Julie.
So I made two really good decisions.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
But it was Bill who resisted the idea of partnering
with someone for the sake of a name.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
We wasn't really interested, you know, I can understand that.
And when it finally it came around and said, you know,
maybe we could give this a go.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Which brings us back to the end of nineteen eighty five, Bill,
Ben and Scotti were in on this partnership. Julie Crenshaw
still had her doubts.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
And I was like, are you sure you want to
do this? You know, because he was struggling with his health,
struggling with his game. We just got married.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We weren't even certain he was ever going to play
competitive golf again.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Having been told for a few years and by several
potential clients that they liked his work, but that if
he partnered with a recognizable name, it would help sell
the finished product. Core was already noticing that Crenshaw was
getting their team seats at bigger and better meetings, and
there was even some interest from national media.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Ben new and I knew Ron Whitten, whom you've known
for so many years, who was the architectural editor of
Golf Digest. Ron Whitten came to Austin to interview us
for a story to do about this partnership we had found.
Now obviously that story, the whole foundation of it is
(04:25):
Ben's reputation and background and playing career. And here he is,
he's going to get involved in this design partnership. But
Ron Witten comes in with a tape recorder and we're
going to have this interview. He turns a tape recorder on,
he lays it on the table and the first question
(04:47):
he asked is, so you formed this design partnership. What's
the name of the company. And there's just silence. We
had never talked about it. I'm not sure i'd ever
th aught about it. Ben is the one who spoke
up and he said the name of the company is
Core and Crenshaw. There was no reason not to put
(05:09):
Bill up front.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
He's the man.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And you know, I'll tell you what. Even to this day,
Bill leads our team. He's the leader. When he asked later,
I remember asking him after us, how did you come
up with that? It's an alphabetic order, but it sounds better.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Ben makes a good point. Core and Crenshaw sounds better
than Crenshaw and Core. But I asked Ben when he
says Bill is the leader, what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Interest supersedes length? And yeah, the whole world is enamored
with link. But interest is what I saw in Rockport
Country Club.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
He Die Roy, Die, Rod Whitman, Jack Nicholas, Dave Carry,
Charlie Bellair, Mike McKay and Jerry Scrooge Clark were all
key to this match, which one developer predicted would be
a quote disaster, had to start. He actually looked smart.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We started two projects. That was our goal, to try
to do two courses at once, you know, at the
same time if anyone would ever hire us. We weren't
sure that was ever going to happen, but it did.
We began two projects. Neither one of them were completed.
Both of them we actually had holes roughed and ready
(06:39):
for irrigation, and they both fell by the way during
the savings and loan crisis of the late nineteen eighties.
And in the process of that we committed to two
other projects and lo and behold, the same thing happened.
(07:00):
So we spent the first two years of our partnership
producing zero nothing. I guess it was maybe a year
and a half, or could have been two years after.
He wrote the initial piece for Golf Digest, and in
it he said that we were the only two people
that ever formed a design partnership and then immediately retired
(07:21):
because that's what it looked like we had done. We
produced nothing. The cupboard was a little bear.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Of the four courses they started. The first was in Austin,
which was called Uplands, the second in Magnolia. They had
shaped eleven greens before they stopped the project. Almost thirty
years later. That property became blue Jack National and Tiger
Woods Design. The third corn crunch on Missfire, was in Baltimore,
(07:49):
and the fourth was in Colorado, two miles from where
they'd eventually build the Colorado Golf Club. I asked Bill
if the start stops were important to getting them where
they needed to go as a team.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I can't truthfully say I've ever given it thought about
it in that way, but instantly my reaction is yes,
it was a very in spite of the fact to
how frustrating and difficult it was. It gave us the
opportunity to spend time together on sites, with the guys
(08:21):
with you in the process of shaping in holes and
going from concepts to on the ground, you know, reality,
and it was invaluable, you know, looking back on it,
(08:42):
in some ways, it could very well have been the
best thing that could have happened.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Back in the late eighties, Ben had a full time
job on the PGA Tour. In nineteen eighty eight, he
had ten top tens. He won Durau finished top twenty
in all four majors, which included a fourth at the
mass Sters Bills on the income was building golf courses
and he needed a win. He found one doing a
(09:07):
solo project in France.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
The company had to do a loan, and I'll assure
you that loan was underwritten not by my financial statement.
It was a boy bends and instead that we could
stay in business and and the other part of that, Matt,
you're correct. I went to went to France. We did
a golf course in Bordeaux. Golf maydoc for a guy
(09:31):
who became such a good friend through the years, Bernard
Pascasio and me.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Perception of golf and then mine, I both like tradition
and golf course you know in the like Millfield in Scotlan,
or Pine Valley or sey Presspine, uh which all the
(09:58):
same thing, approvissiable for the amateur and competitive for the
professional player.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Bernard Pascasio dipped in and out of the European Tour
from nineteen seventy one to nineteen eighty nine. He won
fifteen tournaments in France and played in nine World Cups.
The Chateau Course at Gulf Demydoc opened in nineteen eighty
nine and is considered one of the best courses in
France to this day. It remains the only cores or
(10:27):
corep in Crenshaw design in Europe.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Bill is a real strategy genius and respective of Natvia,
Bill is honest and I respect him very much. I
am proud and happy to know him and the best
(10:51):
in friend.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Back in Texas and still in the eighties they had
another bike. Scottis's stepfather was helping develop Barton Creek in Austin.
The first course went to Tom Fazio Corn Crenshaw. We're
on deck.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
It was an average piece of property and I think
Ben and Bill did a great job, and there were
environmental concerns all along the way that slowed that project
down and really delayed that job where it actually opened.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
After Kapalua kappoloua resort on Maui's north shore, was building
more golf. Mark Roffing, affectionately known as Mister Hawaii and
prior to working for NBC in the Golf Channel, was
put in charge.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
I got involved in the plantation development and kind of
took the lead role in putting together the golf part
of the Colin Cameron, who was the chairman of Mallyland
and Pineapple Company, they put in the land. We did
a joint venture and he said, you're responsible for the golf,
you figure out how to do it. So off I
went interviewing golf course architects and had no idea what
(12:00):
I was wanting from them, because I had no idea
really what I wanted.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It was.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
It was kind of a blind leading the blind in
a little bit of a way, and uh, you know,
somehow I started talking to Ben Frenshaw.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It was a.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Seminal uh golf course in our in our career, and
you know, and just amazing happened to coincide with my
marriage as well.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's got all these other.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Dimensions and it and it was as the piece of
property that I saw first.
Speaker 6 (12:33):
And he told me about this relationship that he had
developed with Bill Core said, you've got to meet this man.
You have got to meet this man.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Ben was was that Coppolo, He and Julie and he
called and he said, Bill, there's a there's a site here.
I think we should consider, uh, you know, working with
And I remember asking him on the phone, I said,
what does it look like? Ben?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I saw it that saw playlantation fields out there of
pineapple everywhere, absolutely gorgeous. And he, Milt said what does
it look like? And I said, well, it looks like
land gently rising from the sea.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I'd never been there, I hadn't seen it, but somehow
rising gently from the sea conjured up images in my
mind that didn't quite match what I saw when I
first got there and went out with Mark Roffing. We're
standing out there where now the clubhouse, basically where the
(13:35):
clubhouse is now. I was looking backward up the hill
where at the eighteenth toll is now, looking down the hill,
you know, as well, towards where the first hole is,
and I'm just I'm speechless. I just God, it's got
a lot of elevation changes the slope and it's beautiful,
(13:56):
It's stunningly beautiful. But I just didn't know quite what
to say other than I finally I looked at at
Mark and I said, Mark, when you and Ben were here?
And he called me. I said, what were you doing?
And he said, we brought a couple of coronas and
(14:19):
we watched the sunset. And I couldn't help it, Matt,
I just said, well, Mark, I hate to ask this question,
but how many coronas did you go? Hey out?
Speaker 6 (14:39):
It took me about ten minutes before I fell in
love with Bill Corr And from that day on it
was like, you know, talking to the same person. I
remember asking Bill, you know what's going to happen if
you and Ben aren't here at the same time, and
he said, it doesn't matter. When you're talking to me,
you're talking to him. When you're talking to him, you're
talking to me. And boy was he right.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And when you get on the hop or parts of
the property, there's there's just the most beautiful sites and place.
It's a big part of the dimension of how how
the property climbs and then goes back down towards the clubhouse.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You know, for anyone who's been there, five hundred feet
elevation change between the seventeenth t and the like the
second Green, And so we would we'd be out there
working and I just couldn't help it. But almost every
opportunity I got when Ben was there, I would just
somehow say, you know, this is so so good. It's
(15:38):
so easy to work with. It just rises gently from
the sea.
Speaker 6 (15:43):
They made you believe that they were going to come
up with something that really fit the place, and they did.
You got to remember, too, there was a big tournament
going on here then.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
So for their.
Speaker 6 (15:55):
First real project, not only did they have an elevator
change of over four hundred feet seven hundred acres, they
had to play a PGA Tour event on it. That
is a very difficult combination of elements and sort of
ingredients and what had to be cooked up. But it
never phased him. And you know, every time Bill would
(16:18):
scratch his head, Ben would smile and laugh, and I
knew they would figure it out.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
A couple of a plantation opened in nineteen ninety one
and has been the host of the PGA Tours Century
Tournament of champions since nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
It had to be a golf course with the enormous
scale in terms of the size of the features, the fairways,
the greens to be just to be playable. We look
back and just go, you know, it's different. It's a
very different type of golf course. And I have to say,
(16:54):
even today, thirty years later or whatever, I don't think
we would have done it different.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I asked Mark Ralfing, what would have happened to Corn
Crenshaw if they didn't beat out guys like Palmer, Nicholas
and Fazzio for the plantation job.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
Ben and Bill's business was a fledgling business at the time.
As you say, they've been at it a couple of times.
I think this was a critical time for them, and
had the plantation project fallen through for whatever reasons, you know,
a recession or you know, the Gulf War, if we
hadn't got in ahead of that, who knows, I think
(17:30):
their careers could have been decidedly different.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
A funny thing about that is early in the company's history,
as we were doing the course for Mark Graffing, Mark
offered us. You know, at that time, our fee I
think was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and Mark said, well,
we'll either give you your fee or you can have
a lot here. Well, we had a bank loan to
(17:54):
pay off, and Ben and Bill and I wanted to
take a salary, and we had some employees to pay
at that time, so we took the money and I
think that lot so for about five million dollars.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
That was one of the most enjoyable times of my
entire career, broadcast or anything else. I just loved working
with Ben and Bill. And you know, when they came
in and started this Matt there was no Core and
Crenshaw style. You know, there was no sand Hills, there
was no friars Head, there was no Old Sandwich. So
(18:27):
you didn't know what the style was going to be.
And the thing I loved about him was I think
part of their theories evolved through the plantation for us.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
So that's sort of landmark number one of the Core
Crenshaw events. Kapitalua really brought attention to us. The phone
started ringing in the office. People were talking about golf
courses and I'm not sure where Dick Young's cap actually
heard about us or what we were doing, but he
started coming around in about nineteen ninety two, and we
(19:00):
were just wondering, what, you know, what is this guy
thinking about doing a course up in the middle of Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Dick Young's Cap was a developer from Lincoln, Nebraska, who
in nineteen ninety was offered a deal on eight acres
of land in Mullen, population four hundred and sixty three.
Young's cap had a hunch and a vision. Now he
needed money and someone to build a golf course. Core
and Crenshaw weren't a hard sell. Others had their doubts.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Ben and Scottie and I were all in the office.
That doesn't happen very often, but we were all there.
Dick gets on the phone and he introduces himself and
he's he's talking about this property that's he's looking at
in Nebraska, And instantly he says, Nebraska. I'm thinking, you know,
(19:53):
flat probably maybe maybe not the most interesting property in
the world. Uh likely. And then Dick very quickly says
it's in an area called the sand Hills in Nebraska.
Light bulbs going matt for me and for Ben.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I had a magazine that I had subscribed to and
it was it was a It was an artist it
was a Texas artist magazine, and in in this thing
it did a layout on the cattle ranches of Nebraska.
(20:35):
I kept looking at these old photos and I said, got,
it looked just like Britain in Ireland and Scotland rolling
sand hills sand Hills of Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
As for Bill, he first met ron Whitten in the
late seventies back in Huntsville, Texas. Went Still, an assistant
district attorney, was writing a book about golf course architecture
and stopped in at Waterwood.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I said something about, what's the best land for golf
you've ever seen? He said in Nebraska. I got Nebraska,
And what are you talking about? He said, Bill, There's
a place called Sandhills in Nebraska. He said, It's just
some of the most magnificent land for golf I have
ever seen anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And then in the late eighties, Bill was at Prairie
Dunes in Kansas walking with Doug Peterson, who was the
superintendent at the time.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I was walking down the eighth fairway with Doug and
looking at those heaving contours in the dunes. That Perry
mix will just lay that incredible that hole on And
I said to Doug. I said, Doug, can you imagine
having a piece of property like this to work with?
And I remember distinctly mad Doug looked at me and
(21:51):
he goes, Bill, I know where there's land better than this.
And I'm looking at him, go what what are you
talking about? How can anything be better than this? He said, well,
maybe it's not better, it's just more of it. And
he said into sand Hills and Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, needless to say, Bill was in.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Let's go see it. Let's let's go see it. So yeah,
Ben and Scottie and I all went up there to
get our first look at what would become sand Hills
Golf Club.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
We flew up and we could tell from North Platte.
We kind of cast our eyes up to the north.
I said, God, a mighty look at these dunes or
dunes everywhere. And so he took us up in this
helicopter and it was the damned this site the rest
of the day, and looking at all this property, we're going,
(22:45):
oh my god, it's so vast. We had no idea,
and Dick wanted us to go up north, which was
gotten forty five miles up north of North Platte. And
we're seeing great ground wherever we looked. So we couldn't
figure that out.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
But we had never seen anything like it. Man, the
everywhere you looked, you just felt like, this is just incredible.
It's incredible wild on Earth? Has this not become a
golf mecca.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It wasn't exactly love at first sight for all of
Team Corn Crunshaw.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Scotty went with us up there to meet Dick Young's
cap to look at this site. Where Scotty got they
had a van and admittedly, as Ben said, there's a
helicopter there. So Ben and I'm getting this helicopter. Now
we're flying all over We're not talking about a mile
or two, We're talking many miles, looking at all these
different dunes, and we land and then we get out.
(23:46):
Dick youngerscap is in the van with Scotty in the
back and they're trying to keep up with us in
the helicopter.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
And so about seven of us get back in this
suburban and Ben and Bill flow off the helicopter and
we spent the next six hours chasing bening Bell in
the helicopter, going all over Nebraska. It seemed like and
in the meantime, the picnic basket was in the back
(24:14):
of the van with me, and about five hundred flies
had gotten into the van, and I'm just thinking, boy,
this day has got to get over with pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Ben I was really excited. We're looking at all these dudes.
Poor Scotti is trying not to get sick in the
back of the car, going around, up and down over
the fields. So here's impressions when you talk to him
of the introduction to the sandials would be quite different
than ours.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
I'll never forget it.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Those are the big, biggest menus flies I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Poor Scotti. The best was yet to come.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I tormented Scotti.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I said, look, Scotty said, we'll do this for nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It just Scott He said, oh no, we can't do that.
Phil Bill.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
When we got Bill and I got there, our minds
started tournament and how are we going to make this
work where PEPs can think we're crazy going all the
way up from North platte forty miles is why isn't
it closer to civilization? All these questions.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So Young's cap had his answer to who was going
to build the golf course? But the time he had
to raise the money to pay for both the land
and the golf had an expiration date. Meanwhile, Mike Kaiser,
recycled greeting cards in Chicago, was on a similar path
to remote, sand based minimalism. Kaiser had built The Dunes Club,
(25:43):
a nine hole, private but non pretentious hang in New Buffalo, Michigan,
and he had found a stretch of gorse choked dunes
along the southwest coast of Oregon.
Speaker 7 (25:53):
So round Whitten from Golf that just said, Mike, get
on mind. I'm going to introduce you to Dick Youngscalp,
because I like what you've done here at the Dunes Club,
which is built on sand, and I've got this guy
who's got this great site and you should.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Talk to him.
Speaker 7 (26:09):
So I ended up talking to Dick Youngscap. I don't
remember if he called me, which I think is the case.
And Dick said, I need a money guy, and I said,
you know, I've already bought land in Abandon and I'm
trying to assemble the money and the courage to build
out there. And you've got this remote site in Mullet, Nebraska,
(26:30):
and you want me to double down with two highly
speculative adventures.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I'll tell you what I know.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
You're going to buy the land, and I'll be part
of your partnership that is buying the land. But you've
got to find someone to help you pay for sand Hills.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Jim Simons was that guy. Young's Cap was originally allocated
one thousand acres along the Dismal River. Simons would take
the other seven acres for ranching. But the fundraising didn't
start at the land. Fresh off the success of the
plantation course, Mark Rolfing was back in the mix, and.
Speaker 6 (27:07):
They kept saying to me, we'd like to get you involved,
and I just really had no interest. I thought it
was one of the stupidest ideas I'd ever heard of,
a private club in the middle of Nebraska.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Dick is a.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Single minded individualist. I mean, they don't make any more
people like Dick Young's Cap. He possesses very strong opinions.
He knows what he wants. He's an architect. He's a
building architect by trade, so he has some semblance of
building things and he has his opinions. But I cannot
(27:46):
tell you what a gift that he gave us in
the opportunity to do something that had never been tried.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Really, I mean, the.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Most remote location that anybody could ever think of.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
But in a way I felt a little obligated in Matt,
I think, And finally I let them talk me into
going up there. One day we flew up from Austin, Texas,
three of us being Bennett, Bill, and looked at the property.
And I'll never forget walking out there with young Scap
and three or four other guys.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
And looking at this thing.
Speaker 6 (28:26):
And Ben was saying, Kay, you just see you know
these hole look at how these holds are just gonna lay.
I couldn't see anything. I looked in every direction, and
all I kept saying was where's the hotel going to go?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know what?
Speaker 6 (28:43):
Okay, howbout the condos? Where we're gonna build the condos?
And as we started talking more and more I realized
that that was not what they had in mind at all,
And then I thought, what am I doing here?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Very early on, you become aware that the site is
so good that if you don't produce one of the
world's outstanding out you failed. It said. You know, there's
some sites you get that are you know, you don't
(29:16):
have to do very much to to make them far
far better than what you expect. But the sand Hills
there was great potential there to go the wrong way,
and we knew it. And and that was mostly tied
into what you said, the fact that you could build
a hole, you could go in so many directions. At
first glance, or even after it being unter for days
(29:38):
and days, you begin to think you can go in
any direction until you launch off and start walking through
those dunes and realizing what you think is pretty calm ground,
Suddenly you just disappear, I mean in huge valleys and
holes and big ridges, and uh so it's it's not
like you just could go in any direction, but she
(30:01):
certainly had huge numbers of options. I have to say.
The one and the one thing that's kind of, I
don't know, kind of gotten me a few times is
I've heard people say, oh, you could build holes anywhere,
it didn't matter where you put them. NI could just
each build them anywhere. It would have been just as good.
(30:24):
I'm not sure that's the case.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
Man, I'll never get Ben and I went up to
the public course in Mullin, about ten miles to the
to the north that day, and we went up there
to meet some of the local folks and saw the sign.
When we went in, it was great. It said nine
holes five dollars, nine hole course nine holes five dollars,
eighteen holes three dollars. So I asked the kid in
(30:47):
the shop, I said, how can it be cheaper to
play eighteen holes than nine holes? And he said, we're
trying to encourage play, and that's fabulous. I fell in
love with I fell in love with sand Hills that day,
and it's just a marvel. And when I saw the budget,
(31:08):
but what I realized what we were going to do
was build a golf course and a clubhouse at sand
Hills for less money than we spent on the cart paths,
just the cart paths at the plantation course, I said, wow,
how can I turn this down? So it was really
an amazing project.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
The deal gets done, there's going to be golf in Mullen.
But it meant a lot to Young's cap that this
was well received by the locals. Here's more from Core.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
The coal trains. I mean, I can't hundreds of cars
I think on the coal trains that are probably kind
of from Wholming back towards Chicago and they go through
right through Mullen, Nebraska. And I was seeing there waiting
one day. It just stopped waiting as the train just
eached by, it seemed, knowing that it was going to
(31:58):
be a long long time. And I saw a fellow
in the pickup truck behind me, and he got out
of his truck and he walked up next to the
truck I was in. He just kind of looked at
me and he smiled and said, you must be one
of the golf course fellas. And I said, yes, sir,
I am. He said, well, I reckon, you'll be building
(32:22):
something out there. It looks like what we see on
television with water, green grass, trees. I said, no, sir,
I don't think you'll see any water. I don't think
you'll see a tree unless it just happens to be
a volunteer that's there. And I don't think you'll see
very much green grass. I said. It'll be green of
(32:45):
a shade, but more like all aver, you know, green,
than bright green. I said. It's just not the way
we would envision something happening out here in these dunes.
And he goes, no water, no trees, no water, no trees,
no bright green? Right no, no, right, I like that.
(33:09):
I like that. And he turned around. He walked back
and he got in this truck. That was probably my
first time of thinking, you know, this place is so special,
but we really need to do something here, not just
for golf, but something that, if at all possible, will
make these these folks proud that it's there.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
In order to share his vision with the locals, Young's cap,
whose brother in law was a rancher in the area,
went as far as putting pictures of courses like Royal
County down of Northern Ireland in storefront windows throughout Mullen.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
That these people thought we were came from Mars or
something you're going to do out here. You know, it's
basically cattle grazing, and they're very dependent, the very proud
of the way that they live and they work. But gently,
you know, through Dick Young's Cap and his his relatives,
(34:11):
you know, had to talk to the local people and say, look,
these people are okay, don't you know it's gonna work
out fun. We were gently sort of embraced. But man,
they mean so much to us because they brought us in.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
They didn't have to, and who doesn't love a story
about pink flags in the prairie.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was by myself walking out in the dunes on
the right on what is now the tenth fairway at
San Dials Golf Club. But I was just walking my
blue jeans and boots, and I had a bundle of
the surveyor flags and they were bright fuchia pink, and
so I could see them well and if I found
(34:56):
a certain situation for what the felt like an interesting
green site or a te site followed by a landing
area in the green site. Just I was just flagging
and I'm making little notations on a piece of paper
I had. But so I'm standing there with a bouquet
of bright light, and up over the done ridge from
(35:19):
the valley comes a herd of cattle. I don't know
how many. I didn't try to count them, but there
was There had to have been at least one hundred
and fifty or two hundred head of cattle coming right
up over the dune ridge where I was. And they
rode up. First of all, I'm staying there, the cattle
coming completely surround me. I am just I'm like the
(35:43):
hole in a doughnut of cattle. And they slowly weave
through the cattle and come up to me, and one
guy looks at me, just what are you doing? I said, well,
to tell you the truth, I'm looking for golf holes.
Matt the guy who's like a scene out of the movie.
(36:04):
This guy leans over in his saddle, he looks at me,
he looks at the pink flags, he looks back at
his three companions there, and he just he says, man's
looking for golf holes. They all kind of look at
me like I'm just some lunatic, of course, and he goes, well,
(36:26):
good luck to you, fellow, and off they go.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Not sure how much luck Core neated, but believe it
or not, he needed more land.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Here we are, we're out here on a thousand acres man,
and we lay out the golf course. We were look ever.
We think we're pretty happy. And then one day Ben
I both go out there and we start looking just
a little a little further out, and we didn't know
quite where the thousand acre boundary was, but we go
out there and board, you know, that looks pretty good
over there. Let's walk over there and see what that
(36:58):
could look like. We got over there and got, yeah,
that looks pretty nank. You could go over here, and
then you could go and he ended up being a
kind of a not really triangle but kind of an
odd shaped piece back there, and we just immediately changed
the routing and put our holes out there. And obviously
we weren't doing any construction. But Dick comes out probably
(37:20):
the next day, and he comes out and we said, Dick,
we're gonna we want to go out here and there,
and he just stands there and he goes, that's not
on our ground. That's on the ground that it gave
the gym simes, that's not on our and he basically said,
(37:41):
how on earth can you not get eighteen holes a
thousand figures ground.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Young's cap got that land, Corn Crenshaw got the ultimate routing.
Mike Kaiser got a low score.
Speaker 7 (37:56):
I had certainly been invited many times that I did
not go, as I was going to Man and was
trying to figure out what to do with that. So
I didn't see sand Hills until I went there with
three friends to play an inaugural round and basically a
preview round. The course was probably putting at six. It's
down the stip meter.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
So it was really new.
Speaker 7 (38:18):
And little did I know until that day that slow
greens are a lot easier to put on man, You
know this than the greens that are primed and go
in twelve. So I actually shot a seventy three, my
all time best score, and my first and lasting impression
of sand Hills was that's where I shot at seventy
three on this totally natural sand sand hills in Nebraska.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
And that was also Kaiser's first impression of corn.
Speaker 7 (38:46):
Crenshaw, Boy, did they do a masterful job in as
much as they didn't seem to have touched anything. You know,
you've heard that they found one hundred and twenty holes
and had trouble going it down to eight running and
down to eighteen. What I didn't know, and that was
their claim, is they didn't move much sand. It was
obvious to my foursome, we're all ad and knowledgeable golfers,
(39:08):
that this was a defined minimalism.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
As for Crenshaw, he offers more credit to Core for
the routing.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
He has a way of doing it and that's entirely natural.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
You know. He once said, he said, you know, if you.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
If you're if you're an animal, and you just follow
the way that they make these trails, and yeah, it's
maybe the path of least resistance as you go around,
and if you go by the idea of so if
you're just kind of having a walk about about a
piece of property, he has a way of doing that
(39:47):
that that it fits.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
And and you know, Matt, one of.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
The hardest things that we had to do there is
actually put the directions of the holes and where they went,
what sequence, because.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
It was dawning, because we knew we never get a
piece of property like that. Again. I remember when the
when the golf course was just about to open and
Ben and I went out to play and we were
on the uh we were we were just near the
sixteenth green, uh and just the two of us, and
I remember asking Ben, Ben, would you change anything? Do
(40:29):
you think we missed anything? Do you think what do
you think? Then he said, Bill, I wouldn't change it.
I think it's good. I like it. I like it.
And we're talking about exactly where you were, or Matt,
the flow, the sequence, the variety of the holes, the
way they fit on the on the landforms. And that
(40:52):
was without question our biggest fear going into it. And
even to this day, Man, I spent so much time
out there and both in those early years and walking
those dunes in the sight, and I have yet to
walk out there and go Wow, we should have gone
(41:13):
over there. We should have done that. We could have,
but it's just I just haven't second guessed it. And
for me, and particularly on that site, to say that
it's pretty big.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
For some final reflections, here's Mike Kaiser.
Speaker 7 (41:31):
What I would say about Dick Youngscap, who's sort of
publicity shy, oddly because he's.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Not a shy man.
Speaker 7 (41:37):
He had the courage of his convictions. He saw this
land in Mullon, Nebraska and said, I see a golf
court there and so on all the way through, and
you know, to this day when you're out there, you
scratch your head, and said, who was the brave man
who decided to put it all together in sam Hills,
especially given his background. He'd already done one with Pete
(41:58):
Dye and Lincoln and could easily have rested on his
laurels because.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
That was a very well regarded golf course.
Speaker 7 (42:05):
But nope, he found this land and Nebraska just as
I later, just as I found land and abandoned, and
decided to repurpose himself as the builder of remote golf
courses in the middle of nowhere, And boy did it
work out.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Man Mark Rawfing on why Core and Crenshaw have become
so successful.
Speaker 6 (42:26):
If you traded voices between Dick Young's Cap and Mike Kaiser,
they could almost be the same person in a lot
of ways too. They remind me a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Of each other.
Speaker 6 (42:38):
And you know, that's that's the kind of people that
Ben and Bill are attracted to, no nonsense people. And
I think when you're not taking jobs on the fly
and high risk jobs and you know, trying to you know,
do things that the environment may not dictate there, you're
(42:59):
never going to be as successful as date been. Because
they went to the right places, they were very selective,
they worked hard at it, and they deserve everything that
they've gotten out of it.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
In Part one, for Ben Crenshaw, finding Bill Corr was
about fate at sand Hills, they both needed a little faith.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
You had these people who in the you know, in
the personage of Dick Young's Cap, who wanted to do
this thing, and and it was you know, you talk
about a bold leap, putting it out there somewhere where
we all had just hoped that people would come to
(43:42):
see it and enjoyment and enjoy it because it was
something different. But the land was so blessed that we
just didn't you know, we didn't build so much there,
We just followed nature.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
There.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Here's Scottie Sayers on what sand Hills meant for business.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
And after that, the opportunities for our company exploded. I mean,
the phone was ringing all the time and we had
more and more great opportunities to build courses. And I
don't want to pick on any courses to say that
they were better than others, because there was a period
where we did Old Sandwich, we did Hidden Creek, we
(44:21):
did Austin Golf Club, we did East Hampton Golf Club,
but we did Friar Shad And so there's landmark number
three and that's another course that immediately brought us a
lot of attention because of the spectacular nature of it
and the fact that it sat on Long Island where
(44:43):
a lot of people could take a look at it.
The fourth big one for the company is abandon Getting
a chance to work for Mike Kaiser certainly changed our world,
and Mike has.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Been so good to us over the years.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
It's been as you know, Matt, we've had a chance
to be abandoned trails, we did the Preserve, we did Cabot.
Mike was a part of Lost Farm down in Tasmania
Sand Valley. And now we've got the Sheep Ranch coming along,
So you know, that relationship was kind of the fourth landmark.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And then I'd say the fifth was Pinehurst.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Crenshaw again under collection of work.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I mean, we're not prolific, We'll never be prolific, but
I don't think that some people have had some of
the best experiences that we've had working with people and
in certain environs.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
And finally I asked Bill Core if he thought they
could have ever achieved such a deep portfolio without sand Hills.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
No. No, I wouldn't say no unequivocally, but I would
say it would be extraordinarily unlikely that we could have
the sand Hills. It was such a special site that
Dick gave us, and he gave us the freedom to
(46:11):
work with that site. And yeah, Matt, we didn't know.
We didn't know. How get asked sometimes people say, oh, gee,
did you know this was going to be a watershed
event in golf architecture. No, we didn't know that. We
didn't know. We never talked about it, we never thought
about it. All we thought about is how can we
(46:33):
make the most of this site? And this opportunity we've
been given. But once it came online and it seemed
to have struck a chord, so to speak, with the
golfing world. And of course part of that was because
it was so different than what was prevalent at the time,
but it was as it just became the cornerstone of
(47:01):
people being aware that we are one in this business,
but two that we have an affinity for this type
of ground.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Do you guys have a favorite fire pit that you've
stumbled upon or use on a regular basis?
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Matt, you know, I have a My favorite happens to
be in our backyard. Uh.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
That was the best kind of fire pit.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, you know. Soon I both travel so much, well
not right now obviously, but generally so much. And yeah,
there's a fireplace in the in the back and that
we that that we like to go, uh uh to
hang out in the in the evenings. But beyond that,
it's pretty darn hard to beat the one at van,
(47:54):
you know, the one out there with the crackling fire
at night and the people around and tell their golf
stories and the you know, their adventures of the day.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yeah, Ben, I left the second that that fire pit
there Uh, it's great to see you know the the
well once again. The pleasure and you've got abandon is
it's just so ideal for a foursome or two forces
to get together to play and you know, it's chilling
at night, and that fireplace really feels good and it
(48:30):
does make all the golfers conjure up memory of the day.
It's it's it's uh, very convivial and it's the way
you in the day and you look forward to the
next one. But I agree, I agree, that's a good
one man.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
I would again, Uh and Bellish just briefly on what
Ben and said. We've been so fortunate to work with
so many wonderful clients, wonderful people, gifted sites. We've gotten
far more than our fair share to work with and
we're just very grateful. But I have to say you,
we're grateful for the time we've spent with you too.
(49:10):
I know that, I know.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
I can't believe.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I'm so glad I got this on record. Matt.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Matt, Yeah, Bill, Bill is exactly right. We we we've
enjoyed our time with you. It's great to see you,
great to talk golf with you.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Thank you again, gentlemen, I you know this is this
has been a treat and a pleasure for God's sake,
Stay safe out there. We need you guys to keep
doing what you're doing and and look forward to seeing
you out there in the dirt somewhere someday soon.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
And yeah, likewise, we help everybody safe, including you and
your family.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Sure are you looking for good value on great golf apparel?
As a listener to this point podcast, my friends John
Ashworth and Jeff Cunningham at link Soul in Oceanside, California
are offering you a twenty five percent discount on all
future orders of what I Wear all day, every day,
on and off the course. Whenever you go to linksoul
(50:15):
dot com, just use promo code matty G twenty five
m A t t y G twenty five. Thank you
for listening to the fire Pit. It's produced by Alex Upeggi.
It's edited by Rex Lint. The theme song is by
Joe Horowitz. Please rate and review this podcast on Apple
Podcasts and we might track you down and send you
(50:36):
one of our new Imperial rowpads. Got a question, comment,
or a story for us to track down. You can
find me on Twitter at Matt Janella or on Instagram
at matt Underscore Janella, and if you haven't already done so,
please subscribe to The fire Pit on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,
or wherever you listen to a story like this one.
(50:58):
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