Deer Meat w/ Ben Mims

Host Bryan Ford is joined by cookbook author and LA Times food journalist— Ben Mims. Ben has written three cookbooks and has worked as a food editor and recipe developer for several food media publications, such as Lucky Peach, Food & Wine, Saveur, Food Network Magazine, and Buzzfeed/Tasty. Bryan and Ben get down on Deer Meat, a dish Ben’s father used to make using home grown beans hunted deer in his home state of Mississippi. 

Watch Bryan make his version and Subscribe: Youtube

Recipe from today's episode can be found at Shondaland.com

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Ben Mim IG: @benbmims

Bryan Ford IG: @artisanbryan

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome to Flaky Biscuit, where each episode we
are cooking up delicious morsels of nostalgia, meals and recipes
that have comforted and guided our guests to success. As
y'all know, I've been You know what I'm saying, y'all
been listening. I've been cooking meals from scratch, creating recipes.

(00:23):
It's hard to say. Sometimes I'm creating a recipe. Oftentimes
I am trying to recreate something. There are times where
I have to create, But in today's this instance, I
am trying to recreate something very very special. These recipes
I hope that y'all are also making at home and
of course giving me advice on where I went right
or wrong. I'm Brian Ford, author of Neural Sourdough, author

(00:44):
of Neural Baking, and today I have a very very
amazing person in the flesh here. So excited to have
this fellow Southerner on the podcast today. Powerhouse in the
food industry, a cooking columnist for the Los Angeles Times,
written three cookbooks, three that just gave me palpitations. And
has worked as a food editor and a recipe developer

(01:06):
for several food media publications such as Lucky Peach, Food
and Wine, Said, Food Network magazine, BuzzFeed, Tasty, no big deal,
please welcome the legendary Ben Mems.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you for having me, Bryan. That's very exciting. It
made me sound a lot better than I am, so
I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean You're You're fantastic.
How are you today? Man? Thanks for coming to Flaky Biscuit.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you for having me so much. It's wonderful and
like finally signing out here for once. So I'm doing
much better.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, oh yeah, it's been a little rain. Yeah, that's
so you've been living.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Here for four years and that to the day exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
And it's not normal to get day's long rain, is it.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Not at this time of year? And definitely not with
this temperature. It's like so cold. I feel like I'm
back in New York and that's that's not the vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, And it's kind of like so Bridge and I
came here for the winter expecting to just like be
on the beach and like surfing in the sun, and
then we get hit with the snow.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Uh huh literal snow, yes, first in like thirty years,
so like good timing.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Of course that happened while we came to escape.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
But when the weather gets cold, I do, I turn
to like braised meat, like I want like something in
the oven for four hours, as like you know, tomato
sauce or onions and just like that kind of like
braised down ultimate comfort.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yes exactly, that's nice. Yeah, you grew up in Mississippi, man, so.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Like no, yeah, growing up in the South, and like
you know, the eating culture there too, Like I had
never really had like fresh salads and like the way
that people eat in other parts of the country, because
everything is like even the vegetables are like braised down.
They have like a spoonful of bacon grease or just
like some kind of like meat to kind of like
you know, help it along. So the way that I've
eaten growing up Misissippi versus New York versus even here

(02:40):
now has like changed dramatically, and I now understand why
it's like such a shock when people go to these
places and try to like adapt their diets and how
different it really is based on what's growing around you,
the weather, and just like the culture of what people
are eating in a different city or a different part
of the country.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, I mean even just walking into a corner store,
like if you you know, I moved back to New
York and it's you know, bodega cultures is the vibe. Son,
It's like you walk into a bodega, you know what
I'm saying, you got to let them know quick, like
you want it on a bagel, a roll, or a
hog and then they got to chop up the meat
or like that's that's part of the culture of New York.

(03:16):
Oh yeah, oh you're eating that kind of like quick
street food. That's street sandwich versus the South, it's a
little slower, huh. Yes, but you could go to a
gas station and get some bu dan or whatever.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes, or just like you know, the meat and three
kind of places. That is what people go to for
a casual meal, you know, and just like to feed
themselves every day versus like when I last lived in
New York before I moved here, I was at like
one hundred ninety fifth Street, like way uptown, and the
bodega was the only thing on the corner that we
had and so the amount of like turkey sandwiches and
chop cheese like from the bodega light every week, that

(03:46):
was my diet and now here bodega culture is not
a thing at all.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Neither is walking culture.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
It is walking. So you're always like driving to get
like a smoothie or like a fresh salad bowl or something.
But that's like what people eat. So it's just like
it changes so differently your your patents. For sure. My
biggest not biggest grite, the thing that I've dealt with
is like when I lived in New York and even now,
like I wake up early and I love, love, love
to get a cup of coffee and like breakfast somewhere
like that is like the happiest part of my day.

(04:12):
And so in La I was always like there's nowhere
to go to get breakfast, like early in the morning
because there are bakeries here they don't even open till
nine am. I'm like, I've been out for three hours,
what are you doing? But the only place to get
breakfast is like at a coffee shop and it's like
sweet stuff. So there's nowhere to get like an egg
sandwich or any kind of like thing that you would
find in New York, and so that's been the most
difficult thing. But it's because everyone lives a long drive

(04:35):
away from everything, so people just make that stuff at home.
It just becomes more of like a home cooking culture,
even for breakfast, which is great for like what I
do and what we do, but makes it not as
easy when you just want to like.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
When you want to have that for breakfast. So yeah,
so like I'm not going to lie to you, and
I have I have a witness here, Bridget. Every morning
I have to go out to a coffee shop, have
a coffee and a little breakfast like or a biscuit
or whatelse biscuit. I heard you like buscuess. You know what,
let's just transition to that. I heard you really like biscuits, man.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
I mean that's the food I was raised on. It's
what the food I have think have the most opinions on.
It's like the thing I love the most.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
The opinions.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh, I mean yeah, I mean we can get into it,
but I feel like a lot of people do them wrong.
Outside of.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
I'm glad I did not bring you a haphazard business.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I mean has.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Changed your seatings to talk about I.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Got a little hot too. I felt like I had
like myself and got a little high.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
I started raising this posture up. He put his shoulders back,
had to puff the chest out a little. No, talk
to me before we so before we get into your
nostalgic meal and talk about that. I do want to
dive into this because you know this is the Flaky
Biscuit Podcast. How did you feel when I hit you
up and you you find out the name of this podcast,
Like did you have a situation happened like biscuit? Like what?

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Oh? No, No, I understood it because like I've I've
read your books, I follow you, and I know that
you're like an amazing baker who's I've had your stuff too,
like here and I of it and obsessed with it.
So I'm like, oh, this makes sense. And I know
that like what your perspective on and your take on
it with all bake goods, but especially biscuits would be
amazing because I did know that you grew up in
the South as well, So I'm like, he's gonna know,
he's gonna know what is important and what's not.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Appreciate that. I appreciate it, all right. So again, so
right and wrong, and biscuits give me three rights and
three wrongs.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Okay, the three rights, which is my main thing, is
that it cannot be served cold like it has to
be hot from the oven after ten minutes. Throw it away,
use it you, or use it for something else. I
don't throw it away, but I don't serve it to somebody.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
MS are sustainable guys, no food waste.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yes, you break it up, it over some buttermilk and
some peas and you make like a little little cold
but bread pudding situation. That's more delicious than it sounds.
I'm saying it right now. Definitely use all butter. I'm
a fan of like vegetable shortening and certain things like that,
and lard for like pie crust. But for biscuits, you
want to taste because you're eating, you know, more of
it than just like a thin sheet of dough. That

(06:56):
and then the thing to do right is to not
touch it so much. I see so many people who
are really obsessed about getting layers and just like folding
into this like laminated type thing, and I'm like, that
is I mean, that can produce that can produce great biscuits.
But I feel that I mean the way I was
raised to do it and the way I've always seen
the women in my life and the women in my

(07:16):
community do it. Is like once that dough comes together,
you barely just pat it out, like you don't even
do anything, and then cut it out and let it go.
And they're like, it's not supposed to have layers. It's
supposed to be like angel biscuits, like very light fluffy.
I love the layered biscuits, and I love the ones
that have like crunchy stuff on them on the outside
and cheese and everything. But for me, the best it's
just this very light, barely touched, fluffy biscuit that's hot

(07:40):
off the oven.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Damn, that's that's a sound bite. That's that. That was
like biscuit one on one, like straight education. And I feel,
you know, embarrassed now. I know, like a week ago
I was posting, I was laminading the shit out of
my biscuits.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
I don't know, if you see, there's no wrong biscuits again,
as long as they're hot and like enough salt and
have the button, then it's gonna taste good.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
It's more of like a fluffy biscuit. You like that
a flaky biscuit.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, yes, there's thing. There's very different types. There's a fluffy,
there's a drop kind, there's the flaky kind that has
all the layers. Like, there's many different styles, and I'm
an equal opportunity either of biscuits. I love them all,
So just let you know what I like.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Maybe I should Yeah, maybe I should have brought that business.
Are you baking soda? Baking powder?

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Baking powder?

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Okay, I'm baking powder too, But have have.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
You ever done Edna Lewis's like homemade baking powder. It
is like ten times better than the store bought. And
once I like convert it over to it, she just
like makes her own. So it's like a recipe where
you use baking soda, cream of tartar and maybe a
little bit of corn starts to kind of like approximate
the store bought baking powder, and it does give like
better rise to everything. So it kind of like messes

(08:43):
with your recipes a little bit. You have to like
account for the extra rise, but it damn it's pretty great.
Once I switched over, it's you.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Know, honestly, people think that and I don't know if
you ever run into this that because we do what
we do. We know like everything about food or whatever baking,
and I literally had no idea that that's how you
make bake impowers. Oh yeah, I'm not afraid to admit
that I'm gonna try it that I.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Didn't know to a couple of years ago. And yeah,
I know, I agree with you. Like the day that
you think you've learned everything about food, you should give
out because we're all constantly learning. And that's, to me
is the fun part about doing this job, you know,
is constant learning from other people because everyone has a
different perspective on what they know and what they do.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah. So wow, man, we bought to have a whole
sidebar about biscuits, that's for sure, But we ain't really
here to talk about biscuits per se because I actually
cooked something else for you. So if you could let
our listeners know what your nostalgic meal is, what you
had me prepare for you today.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
My nostalgic meal is, you know, from growing up in Mississippi,
very unglamorous part of the South, I would say Louisiana
is like the nice part of the South because you
get like the French culture and like all the food
and everything, and where I grew up was very not that.
It was a very meat and three kind of place,
and had a great uncle who owned like a catfish farm,
so we had a lot of catfish growing up in
like deep fried things, which I truly love, but it

(09:59):
is what it is. And so my family growing up,
my dad would always was a big deer hunter, and
so as someone who was not taken to it, I
did not ever go out hunting with him. So I
never really got that full experience because I was like,
I'm not waking up at three am to go sit
out in a tree it's really cold and just be
silent for hours, Like I can't do this. But so
most mornings when they would go hunting, I would actually

(10:21):
just like get in my bed at my grandmother's house,
wake up, have breakfast with her. And it was like
this whole stereotypical, amazing Southern spread. It was like biscuits.
She would make corn bread, she would do scrambled eggs
and the sausage grease. There'd be bacon as well, like cheese,
toast grits with like a giant pow of butter on top.
And she remember she would always set up a glass
of whole milk, a glass of grape juice, and then

(10:43):
a glass of orange juice, and that was like all
the nutrition you needed. So I had to like drink
all those of the course of the breakfast. You had
to had to. She was like, you got to get
all this in. And so in that family, like we
grew up deer hunting. Like I don't remember eating anything
that wasn't deer meat or like feat there, like game
stuff until I was probably like eight or nine. Wow,

(11:03):
And that was like going to like eat fast food,
So that was like completely different. But that flavor of
game meat is always kind of like in me. And
so like whenever I think about like my most nostalgic
meal growing up, it is my dad would he would
take the deer tenderloin because he didn't really know what
to do with the rest of the meat. Like a
lot of guys they thought like duck and all these
kind of meats were tough and they wouldn't like really
learn how to cook with it. But they would take

(11:24):
like the tender loin part because you didn't have to
do anything with and they would deep fry it. And
so he would like slice it really thin marinate it
in like buttermilk with some Wmistesure sauce and Tabasco sauce,
and then dredge it in flour with a lot of
black pepper and deep fry it like you would like
a country fried steak or fried chicken or something like that.
He would serve that hot out of the fryer with

(11:45):
some mashed potatoes that have like buttermilk in them. He
would leave the skins on, so kind of like new potatoes.
And then some zipper cream peas, which are like like
a cousin of black eyed peas, but they're green and
yellow and like a little bit fatter. Those we had
on my family's farm. So we would, you know, spend
like two weeks in July hot as hell, oppressive heat again,
just like bent over picking these pea pods, and I

(12:05):
member my dad. He would hand me like a ten
gallon bucket and say, when you feel this, then you
can You're done, you can go home.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
And you would think, oh, this is gonna be easy.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
It would be like seven hours later, I'm still like
halfway through, and I was like cursing everything because there
was like bugs and spiders and just not my thing.
So we had to do that and then we would
come home, shell them, blanch them, put them in giant bags.
And we had like a deep freeze in the garage
that we would just it was nothing but frozen deer
and peas. I would say we had that meal probably

(12:33):
once every two weeks. I would say, could we had
so much of it? And that to me is like
the one kind of consistent meal we always had at home.
That makes me feel like nostalgic for being back in
the South and being back in that environment and all
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
So yeah, wow, you kind of let me speeches the
way you just described all that. I mean that was
because you're really describing some very intricate moments. Like it's
not just oh like I used to eat this, I
used to eat that. It's you remember holding a bucket
and picking the pe You remember the deep freezer with
all the deer meat. You remember all these little details,

(13:05):
and look, you know I did my best. Obviously, I
ain't got your daddy's peas. You know I got you.
I couldn't find your daddy's peas. You know what I'm saying.
So it's kind of part of your DNA in a bit.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
You lived in New York and you live now in
LA Do you often eat venison?

Speaker 2 (13:22):
You know, it's not easy to find. There's some restaurants here,
one that I really love. It's called Dunsmore and they
he does kind of like American heritage cooking, he calls it,
which is kind of from the South as well. So
there's lots of like game meat on that but he
hasn't had deer meat on there yet, but a lot
of like bison and goose and peasant and stuff like that.
But it's not easy to find.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
I remember in New York. I tried to find some too,
and they're like I think, like Cinderella had venison for
a while and I say, oh, this is crazy, and
then I went back to get it and it was
just like never again. So I haven't really tried to
recreate it outside of the South because also like something
special to me about enjoying it when I'm in the South,
because that's like, what is a special part of being there?
So I kind of don't want to or not don't want.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
To today biscuits except today there's a special exemption clause
in nostalgic memories.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
But you know what I mean, I don't want to
make it so that it's so every day in my
life now that whenever I go home it's not special.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Well you shoot, I mean
talk about shoes to fill. Hey, I'm just here to
have a conversation. So, like, here's where I went. By
the way. It's I think it's called Harmony Harmony Farms, right.
It was about a twenty minute drive. Basically I drove
around a mountain range because like when I looked at
the map, I was like, oh, it's not that far,
but I shit, I gotta drive. So it's I don't

(14:37):
know how to explain exactly directionally lacery.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
I thinks I think their nickname is the Balcony of
of Southern California or something, because they're right at the
like where the mountains kind of stopped when they had
that look off.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, very is. It was very beautiful and there's
so this place had Elk Venison, buffalo everything, and okay,
it was nice. I walked in frog legs. Yeah, don't
get me started on frog. Okay, I'll play with them.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
I have to tell you a story about frog legs,
so tell it to me right now. There's a place
in the restaurant here called Scaffs. It's like a Lebanese
spots in Glendale that they do these kind of like
spicy frog legs, the things what they call it. It's
kind of like Cajun style the barbecue shrimp, where it's
like it's really spicy, butter saucy, and the frog legs
are fantastic. I had them probably a month ago, and

(15:26):
I was like, oh wow, this is I don't know
why they make them, but they do, and they're really good.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
I'm gonna have to go try them because my dad
he used to make Oh man, he used to make
frog legs, saying because you know, I'm Hondurans, so Hondurans
and New Orleans. Sometimes we double dip in things that
we enjoy. So like people in New Orleans like frog legs,
and so do Hon Durance. So there's different just like
pig feet stuff like that, like big feet wet and
we eat in New Orleans. So anyway, so my dad
used to play with frog legs. Man likes it. Anyway,

(15:54):
I'm gonna break down what I did for the listeners
at home. I ain't about to bring this man some
country fried deer that's been sitting in a container for
an hour, nas, and I'm frying it fresh. So I'm
gonna have to get up and fry it. But what
I did with the other things, So let's start with
the peas. Obviously, I ain't got your daddy's peas black
eyed peas man, that's you know you when you described

(16:16):
this dish, you said, it's kind of like the cousin.
So I brought the cousin. So I was not able
to find the heritage on the family tree. I had
to bring the cousin in. Actually, so I have no
clue how they were prepared. But my guess is so
I did a lot of butter. I did a little
bit of time fresh time. I did some garlic and onion,
a little bit of onion, minced salt, pepper. But the

(16:39):
salt I used. So when we were driving here from
New York, we stopped in New Mexico and I got
this hatch chili salt that it's just like. First of all,
I guess I'll have it for the rest of my life,
because no matter how much I use, the pacts still full.
So I thought it'd be cool to add a little
bit of heat to them with the salt. Actually know,
I'll just pause there. How were the peas prepared in

(17:00):
your I.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
Was about to say the ones you made are going
to be much nicer because mine would literally she would
pour My mom would pour a little bit of water
over them and like a spoonful of bacon grease and
just warm them up.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
And that was a freshly picked so they had to
have that beautifairy stargy my yeah, yeah, all right. So
then with the potatoes, the buttermilk, I mean I got
look red skin on potato. I mean I didn't look again,
I'm not reinventing the wheel here for me to say,
I'm I created you know, am I going to post
a recipe of shondaland dot com?

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (17:29):
But did I did I create this recipe? No? I
mean it's this mashed potatoes, so you know, skin on,
boiled them tender, some butter, some buttermilk, actually a little
bit of regular milk as well. Cream them with salt
and pepper and a little bit of tony satura. You know,
you boys had to put some tony yes.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Pantry as we speak.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
And then now to the to the million dollar questions.
So I went to Harmony Farm I got this, so
in the spirit of transparency, they had the deer tenderloin frozen.
Everything was frozen, so they didn't have you know, locally hunted,
I guess in the mountains.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Hunt.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah. Yeah, So the pack of just tenderloin they only
sold in twos. The mug with like one hundred bucks,
and I was like, oh shit. But he was like,
I got a t bone, the tea bone deer. So
part of it's it's like the file at obviously, I guess.
And then the tenderloin part like the beginning of the tendriline,
and that was like fifteen bucks. I was like, you

(18:31):
know what, I'm gonna take this, So I took that.
It was frozen, so I left in the fridge overnight
and then I marinated it in buttermilk with that Louisiana
red Dot hot sauce. You already know whatever it is.
Let that kind of sit for a bit and I'm
about to go and actually fry it right now, fresh one.
And so for the breading, I usually when I fried

(18:54):
chicken or something, I'll do like a three I'll do
a white flower, a dredge, and then a seasoned flour.
Since these are soaked in so much buttermilk, I'm actually
gonna go straight into my seasoned flour. I'm gonna skip
the first white flower stage. So I'm gonna go do
that for you right now. And I don't know bridge
it might entertain you and ask you how much your
mouth is salivate.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
I mean, I'm very very excited about this right now.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Give me five minutes, and if you cry, cry with you. Okay,
don't go anywhere. We'll be right back after this. Welcome
back to Waky Biscuits.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
You are fantastic. Oh my god, this looks exactly right.
And except for the piece, of course.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Of course, of course I've got something for you actually
because the ketchup. Oh yes, packets of ketch up here.
I'm back. I'm back. I'm back, and yeah, we're gonna
dig in because I'm actually starving.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Same I didn't. I've not eaten anything, so I'm like
dying for this in anticipation.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
All you gotta do is eat, okay, and the rest
will expose itself, you know.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, I mean the smell is taking me back now.
I feel like I feel crazy a little bit because
it's like, wow, this is I've not smelled the smell
in such a long time. Oh man, this is amazing.
Now did you try this before you?

Speaker 1 (20:29):
So I had a tiny bite when I fried some
before you came in. It was quite good. But I
don't know how I fried it, you know, I don't know.
I've never really cooked deer before today.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Oh wow, So we're gonna take a bite together.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Let's take a bite together.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Cheers, cheers, m m. The batter crust is perfect, tastes
just like his. So whatever you did it was right.
My god, what do you think?

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Oh, ma'am, I'm just gonna eat real quick.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Hold on, this is much more tender, dear. Other what
he had, yeah, wild stuff he got was just like
it was pretty chelly sometimes. So this is this is
really nice?

Speaker 1 (21:14):
What about the flavor? What about the gaminess?

Speaker 2 (21:16):
This is definitely milder. I think the reason probably why
he always prepared it this way with so much black
pepper and so much hot salts and a stuff was
to kind of like cut the gaminess of it because
it was definitely like darker than this as well. It's
like veal venison. This is like much tender like mild
and like really nice.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
So wow, it's quite good man. How about them peas, man,
get in, get into them. Black eyes pea does tastes
great because I had to rinse them after I had
I cooked him do a juice salt. You had to
rinse them and recook them.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
And I kind of like the I like the little
bit of hatch chili, Like the spice is really nice
because otherwise you just have you know, creamy playing, creamy playing,
so it's kind of nice to have something to break
it up.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Mmm. Man, it's good.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
I'm gonna try the potatoes.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Oh yeah, this is why.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
And people always talk about potatoes or like a ton
of butter and cream. They went like super like almost
like ice cream. I'm just like no, because I kind
of like the way this is, Like it's lean with
the buttermilk. It's not too rich. You feel like you're
actually eating potatoes.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
It's like a potato. Yeah yeah, yeah. I've never got
into the like super whisked, silky smooth, like liquid style
mashed potato. Like I get it and like it's good,
but I like to be it's potatoes still.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
All the crust bits and you kind of like I.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Mean, like, you know, when you've had this prepared, does
the crust kind of crisp off like that? I mean,
I don't, I don't even know what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
It literally would create that kind of gap when you
fry and kind of fall off sometimes.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
So yeah, and what about the inside. Is it supposed
to be more medium rare? I mean because I I
fried it, because you said it was thinly sliced. Yeah,
so I tried to thinly slice what I had almost
like got in ma Asana. This kind of reminds me
because like got me Asida, like a lot of people like, oh,
like I don't want my meat well done. I'm like, hey, listen,
if I'm going to eat a good guy in asala,
it might be cooked a little bit.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
And yeah, exactly, Well it's so thin it's going to
break apart, and you have all those seasonings, so it's yeah,
this was when he made it, it was definitely well done.
Like my parents did not cook, did not eat meat
that was had any red or pink at all. So
like this again is an improvement because it's not so
like hard done.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
All right, Ben, I want to know did this meal
bring you back? Was I able to make this deer,
these potatoes, and these peas. Was I able to make
it to the point where you are back in your parents' house.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Oh, I'm definitely sitting at my parents' table, and you know,
I can see the I think it was called a grandpappy,
the countertop fryer that you like plug in, that's what
he would use to fry it in. And just like
thinking about that, how like once it cooled down, filtering
the oil, sticking it under the sink and just like
in that like tub of grease under the sink, that

(24:03):
whole image as well. Yeah, I'm sitting with my family.
We're having a good time, having a great dinner because
that was this was always my favorite dinner to have,
so whenever that happened, it was like holiday in the
middle of the week. So this is taking me back.
It feels great.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
I'm glad, man, I'm glad. I'm glad we could reconnect
like this. Yes, absolutely, I guess I met you what
in twenty twenty it was I think I did a
pop up out here and I kind of gusto. Yeah, yeah,
this was a pretty cool way to reconnect with you, man,
And I'm glad to have brought you, I guess nostalgia.
They call it the proost effect, you know, so that's
what we're kind of going for. Are you familiar with

(24:36):
the Pruf effect? Oh?

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Absolutely, the metal ends.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Oh yeah, talk to me about that. What is that
part of like, because if our listeners don't know, Ben's
got a pretty extensive food knowledge and history of working
in food. I mean, is knowing about the proof phenomenon
like part of your everyday work? Do you strive for it?
Is that how you make recipes?

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Oh? Yeah, I mean absolutely, And I think that the
proosed effect is you know, I haven't read the pros
and a long time, but it's that idea of you know,
you're you're much older and you taste something from your
childhood and immediately takes you back to when you were
a kid and like that kind of wonderful feeling that
you had back when you first had it. Kind of
like the food critic and ratitude as well, that everyone
always it's the biggest example.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
I hope soon one day people will be like, yeah,
kind of like Brian Ford on Flaky Business like kind of.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
That will happen the next generation for sure. But yeah,
that is like you know what, I'm always trying to
appeal to in people, and you know, whenever I even
develop a new recipe made nothing's new. So it's always
like taking what people already know, the best parts of
what they know, kind of changing it a little bit,
but like always being able to kind of bring it
back to what people know and love and like something

(25:41):
that will bring them back to a little bit of
nostalgia without yeah, you know, going too far back.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, that's interesting what you just said, nothing's new. There
was something I saw online about someone saying about time
I got credit for my recipe. It's about time I
got the credit I deserved for XYZ and I you know,
I wish I could go into more detail, but I'm
not going to. And in my head, I was like,
credit for what you how old are you? Forty five?

(26:08):
Where you from?

Speaker 2 (26:09):
What did you create exactly?

Speaker 3 (26:11):
You know?

Speaker 1 (26:11):
And I would love to hear more about that though,
I mean, nothing's.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
New, nothing's new. We like, I mean, there's only so
many ways to prepare food, and we've all been kind
of doing it the same way, and everyone, especially now
at this generation, we're all taking what we've known in
the past and what we've been taught and just kind
of putting our new spin on it. And I think
to think that you know, you're creating something brand new,
or that you have the power and the influence to

(26:36):
kind of like change what has been going on for
centuries is kind of like is wild to me because
I think what everyone offers as recipe developers, cookbook authors
is just a new way of looking at it. I
remember there was I can't remember who said it, and
by even like Nile Rogers like about songs about love
songs and he was like, every love song is the same.
It's about love, but it's the job of the artist

(26:56):
of the day to figure out a new way to
interpret that, to like bring a new way that no
one's ever thought about about how to say I love
you to someone in a song. It's the same way
with recipes, where it's like everyone's doing the same meat
low for the same like chocolate cream pie or whatever.
But it's like, what can you bring to it, even
if it's just your story and where it came from
for you, or just like an influence from a family member.

(27:17):
It doesn't have to be in a brand new recipe,
and it's just a way to get someone to think
about something that already exists that's like new to them
and is fun and brings back memories that maybe they
didn't realize they had in the past.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
So yeah, yeah, that was actually really beautifully put, honestly,
because I think that's how I kind of view the
work that I do. It's like, hey, it's bread, right
at the end of the day. If someone tries to
take ownership of bread, or if someone is given ownership.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
To bread, that's ridiculous. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Anyway, so that was a nice little side path. But
I'm curious, how did you how did you get into food? Like,
how did you how did you formulate this path? Really?
I mean you know how you started off maybe you know,
eating this dish right, picking those peas and eating that,
opening the freezer full of venison to actually now, I mean,
you're a columnist for the La Times. Man, that's phenomenal.

(28:07):
How did you kind of figure that out? You know?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think the love of writing about food came from
when I was in college. Knew I wanted to work
in journalism, and I was in journalism school in Mississippi.
I interned for a summer at a newspaper in Vicksburg, Mississippi.
I remember I worked kind of like every beat that
they had throughout the whole summer. So I had to
go to like the courthouse for a couple of weeks.
I had to like walk through jail sales for a

(28:30):
couple of weeks. I had to like go go to
car crash scenes for a couple of weeks, and like
work all these different beats, and I saw a lot
of bad things, like a lot of things I sat
on in, like courtrooms that I didn't love, and like
walking through prisons and having people yell at you, and
like showing up and seeing my dead bodies on the
side of the street, like a lot of stuff. And
I was like, you know what, I want to be
a journalist. I want to write, but this is not

(28:52):
the kind of stuff that I want to cover. Like
I'm just not built for it. And I know that
if I want to write about something, it has to
be something I love, and that's either music or food.
There's gotta be something else like that. And so I
think because of growing up with meals like this, my
grandmother was that kind of like I said, southern grandmother
who just like she made the fried chicken and collar greens,
and she made everything from scratch, lived out on a

(29:13):
farm where we had the peas and everything. So it
was just I had the kind of food in my
blood and my mother was a great baker as well,
so we food was always just like a big thing
that had a lot of memories tied to it, and
I was like, this is what I'm interested in most.
I love cooking. So then I went to culinary school,
interned at Cever way back in the day, and got
a job there, and kind of, I hate to say that,

(29:34):
I didn't really have like a full fledge like this
is what I'm going to be path. It was just
I know that I love food, I love writing about it,
and I'm going to take any job that anyone gives
me that allows me to do that. And I also
think growing up and having parents who did jobs that
they didn't want to do and made them miserable just
to make money made me be like, Okay, I will

(29:55):
do whatever it takes to never be miserable in the
work that I do, even if that means I'm not
paid well. And journalism does not pay well. Working food
does not pay well. So I was kind of like
I've made peace with that. From early on, I was like,
I'm never going to make a lot of money, but
at least I'm going to be happy doing what I do.
I've always kind of occupied a space where you either
worked in a test kitchen or you got to write
about food, and I didn't realize that most people don't

(30:16):
do both, and so I somehow kind of managed to
always making an important thing to communicate that I wanted
to do both. And then you know, the industry has
changed over the last fifteen years since I started to
where now lies. That's what most people do, and that's
what cookbooks are now as well. So this job I
have now is a dream job. It's great because I
get to go to the farmer's markets, I get to
think about food. I get to create something at home

(30:37):
and then write a story to kind of hopefully get
people to want to make it or kind of inspire
them to cook as well. And so I'm kind of
where I thought I would always get to, which is
really nice. But then you know, you always want to
continue learning and growing and doing something else. So it's
like just always taking jobs and enjoying the process and
just letting it kind of happen, which I know is
easier said than done.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
But you're right about one thing. You know, when you
have passion to do it, that's really all. I mean.
I had parents that hustle bro me, you know, my
parents immigrants and immigrants that came into the South, and
I think I think the South is something that we
both obviously have in common and that we both we
might have a contentious relationship with, right because you know,

(31:18):
I've gone through stuff that's damn that's hard. Tok about
you go home and you're excited and you know, oh
my mom made this or whatever, like oh, you know,
I'm gonna go eat at this restaurant, but then like
when you stop to get gas, you might get killed.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah oh yeah, yeah yeah, like shit. Yeah. I mean,
I'm a white guy going in the South, and even
I'm uncomfortable because I'm gay. So it's like when I
go down there, I don't even have the fear of
the pressure that you're going through, but even I still
feel it too. And so it's always in certain ways
where I can't really be myself at a gas stations
and you never know what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Sure, I mean, you could someone could look at me
in the South and immediately know their prejudice against me
and maybe not you. But I think what you're saying
is that you can't be your self. Yeah, and that
must be very very difficult to kind of process, right,
like trying to enjoy all this food culture that we love, right,
like biscuits and this is that or whatever. Yeah, but
you feel like you can't be yourself there.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, and that and that is what makes you They
have that relationship with the South so so hard because
it's a place I grew up and I do love,
and it's not a place that I necessarily want to
go back to all the time. And like even like,
if I'm being truthly honest, when you we had this meal,
it took me back to being around my family's table
and like the warm feelings that that brings about. But
it also reminded me of like when I came out

(32:35):
to them at that same dinner table, you know, fifteen
years ago, and things did not go well and it
was like really rough, and so like, am it's was it?

Speaker 1 (32:42):
This meal?

Speaker 2 (32:43):
It was not this meal? Thank god? The meal that
it was, I don't ever eat I'd ever cook myself
because it's it's traumatic. So it's like there's good and
bad memories tied to food. But I think for me
and maybe for you as well, when you grew up
in a place that you know, you don't feel like
you can be yourself or that is not what you
wanted it to be, the food is kind of can
be the way to still love it and enjoy it

(33:05):
and be like, Okay, these are the good memories, right,
and it tastes good and it's gonna be great. It's
gonna mind you of like maybe that your grandmother or
someone who was not a problem, you know, from where
you grew up and stuff like that. And so that's
at least why I I'm always kind of like reaching
towards the South and the food that I grew up
with to kind of like using my work because definitely,
like I would it would love to have better memories
tied to it than than I do.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
You know, yeah, no, one hundred percent. And I think
like I've always been curious and that you know, for me,
it's I can show up somewhere and I'm just this
is who I am. You can see, you can see
I'm brown, black, whatever you think, and that's what it is,
So I'm gonna be like, yeah, what's up? Do you ever,
how does it feel to have to like do you shift?
I mean, do you like, like, if you want in

(33:45):
a gas station to get gas, do you do anything differently?
Do you change anything about yourself?

Speaker 2 (33:50):
I mean that must be insane, yeah, but I mean
I feel like it's it's like what I hear a
lot of my POC friends talk about code shifting, where
it's like you learn how to talk around different groups
of people, like, oh, yeah, if I go I mean
even when I drive up to like the Bay Area
to visit my partner sometimes and I stop at a
gas station in you know, the middle of California, you
walk a little different. You I make sure to like

(34:11):
it's weird. You're almost like a straight man drag in
a weird way where it's like I'm a not that
I walk any like I walk in whatever.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
You make sure just about your every your mannerism is right, and.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
I make sure not to maybe to wear like looser
fitting clothing than I would wear like otherwise, because you
just want to make sure that no one's going to
see you and be like now's the day that they
want to call trouble or something like that, you know.
So it's I feel like it's not even probably what
you deal with or like what other people deal with,
but it's it's a similar thing. I just like it is.
So you do what you got to do to protect yourself,
you know.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
You know what I've learned. It's not a competition, Like
we're not we're not out here to compete. We we're
just going through some real ship. Man. We're we're just
trying to get gas. We're just trying.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
We're just trying to drive exactly.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
So it's like it's not necessarily like oh, but what
you go through is harder. It's more just like hey, man,
like I feel you that need to have to be like,
oh shit, like I got to be around these people.
I'm in awe that you had the courage to go
through this, like talk to your parents and to have
a meal like this and to really think about the good.
You like to focus on the good. I don't know

(35:16):
if that's how you always are, but like my brain
sometimes goes like too negative, you know, and it can
be hard to balance like the love hate. Sometimes you'll
be at home and I ask you more towards the
hate and the negative and like and hate. I think
my takeaway right now talking to you is, you know,
you're having a meal that reminds me of your parents.
I read that you don't talk much with them, don't,

(35:37):
but but you're still able to have this meal and
focus on the good. And I think you should be
proud of that. Ben. Honestly, that's incredible. I think it's
really really special that you're able to think about those
good times.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, you know, I think you got to do it
to survive sometimes and just like not let it kind
of drag you down all the time. And I think
also you make it sound much nicer than it is,
Like maybe I have avoidance of emotions, so it's like
makes it easier to be kind of like faced about it.
But it's definitely, you know, focusing on the good. It's
also a privileges I get to have as well. I
am able to do it because I don't talk to
them and like I don't go home ever. So it's

(36:09):
like once you create that kind of physical and emotional
distance too, it's a little bit easier. But learning to
try to focus on the good parts about it, like
the food and just like the good memories. I think
helps to kind of maybe make peace with things that
aren't great.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
So I get it. Yeah, No, that's you know, and
also it's not all doom and gloom, right, it's beautiful.
I mean, I you know, talk to me about how
gay people have influenced Southern food. I mean, I know
that you know a lot about this, and I would
love to learn some more. Oh.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I mean, probably the most influential figures in food were
gay men, Like you talk about Craig Claiborne, who's also
from Mississippi. You know, who started the Star system restaurant
ratings at the New York Times. James Beard. Hello, I
think everyone knows him and like what his influence on
the landscape was. You know, there's several cookbook authors who
back in the seventies and eighties who were gay men

(36:57):
who have a lot of influence over me, like Richard's
as he was one who had like a dessert book
that's still like the Bible that I go to and
look to for any kind of like baking and desserts
and stuff like that. So, you know, cooking and food
has always been primarily the domain of women throughout history,
and I think that you know, if you're a gay
man and you are close to those women, which we
mostly are, that that just becomes like, oh, I'm into
this as well, and like that kind of becomes your

(37:19):
way to maybe relate to people, or to like relate
to those women in your life, or just like find
a purpose because there's a lot more gay people, like
even in restaurant kitchens I used to work with, and
I would think just because that feels like such a
macho culture that doesn't have room for it. But you
know a lot of gay men or gay men would
turn to like pastry and stuff like the easier or
the more like whatever. Not easier, but the types the

(37:40):
restaurant work where they could be kind of more protected
or kind of siloed away from the rest of it.
So there's definitely, yeah, something to that and like the
influence over it, but also I think it's just people
wanting to try to find their place in the landscape,
in the world and what we do. And however that means.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Man bam them's out here spitting crazy knowledge. He became
a community.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, oh absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
We'll be back after these messages from our sponsors. You
don't like what comes next? So let's get right back
into You went from Mississippi to New.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
York, straight to New York, less southern bog to New
York City.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
It's tough, actually, you know, no matter trauma or not,
it's just such a comforting it's such a comforting place
and it can be hard to go into that electric energy.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Oh yeah, right, So how was that?

Speaker 1 (38:48):
I mean, you went straight to New York City.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Straight to New York. And I remember the first like
a couple months I was there, people thought I was
Australian because the way I talked. I was like, what,
that doesn't make sense. But I remember having to like
physically try to like change the way I talked because
people could not understand me. That's such a thick Southern
accent or you know, people also think you're stupid if
you have like a Southern accent. And so it was

(39:12):
something I never had thought about.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
So you came, you didn't even need the accent. You
tell them you're from Louisiana and they'll be like, okay,
what is it. I'm just like hold up, though, like chill,
like what's up? Let's go cook? Like yeah that sucks,
huh yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
And so I mean, and I never like took it
too personally, but I was like, this is something that
now I have to kind of change about myself. But
also like growing up in the South, I kind of
knew I didn't belong because I would like walk faster
than everybody. The people that I kind of grew up
with were not my kind of people. I kind of
knew I thought differently, you know, the things I would
hear growing up, like family members or friends say the
N word and just like casually, and I even from

(39:45):
a young age, I was like, this feels weird, what's
going on here? And like my mother, who one of
her best friends was a black woman who she taught
school with. I remember she like raised money to buy
her a car, and like we were very deeply involved
in their family, would go visited them all the time.
But then like on the weekend, my mom would say
the N word. So I was just like, damn, it's
such a complicated place. And I just remember being like

(40:06):
something about this is doesn't feel right. And not that
racism obviously doesn't exist in the North or anywhere else,
and it's not exactly a part of the culture in
the rest of the country, but it was just something.
I was like, I don't think I belong here. Something
is weird here. I definite knew I was gay, so
I was like, I can't stay here. I got to
go somewhere. So New York was kind of like the
way to get out be able to figure out who
I was outside of the South, which is, you know,

(40:28):
you either you either adopt that culture or you don't.
It's a place where everyone's kind of living the same
in a lot of ways, not in good or bad ways,
just it is what it is. So trying to get
out and find your own lane in place to be.
That was New York for me.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah for sure. Wow, But yeah, but New York City.
I'm like, even me, I'm like, damn like that. When
I walk around New York, I'm like, oh, I feel
like I'm like, oh, man, like I know, you know
what I'm saying. I know about Hispanic culture, I know
about this and that. But I'd be learning every day.
I'd be learning something I'd been walking around. Oh this
is a Bangladeshi neighborhood snip, and they like Argentina because
of a soccer game or something. This and that. Afghanist

(41:06):
foods off the chain, you know. So the New York
City's the kind of place that overwhelms your stimulus.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yep. Absolutely, which, back to.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
The point, can be difficult when you come from the
South and go there. Not everyone can quite make that transition.
But I feel like the people that do, like Ben Memes,
you know what I'm saying, like like, oh, this is
what life should be. Yeah, is that you kind of
had that kind of like, oh, like look at all
these people, these cultures.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
I think if you're searching for a different life or
searching for just a different way of living than what
you're in right now, then you'll adopt to a new
environment like that, because it's just it is so new
and so different from what I was growing up in
the South. And when I got there, I never really
felt like, oh this is bad or this is hard.
It was just like it was fast and it was
loud all the time. But it almost was like at

(41:51):
least it's not the South like for me.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
As long as you stay in the five well four
of the boroughs.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, I went to Dowtn Island all the time time.
I liked it. Oh you're good, are you good?

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Okay? I Actually I think I've only I actually have
never stepped foot. You know what, Well, I'm not even
gonna say shit about stat N Island. I love y'all.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
You know what you gotta go get. I think it's
called John's. I might be making that name because every
pizza place named John's. But there's a specific style of
Staten Island pizza where it's like it's thin as a
cracker and it's like thirty inches, like large pie. I
can't remember where it was, but it was pretty good.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Damn yeah, I gotta get me some of that stat
Now pie. What was your favorite meal in New York
when you got there? Like, what's your New York nostalgic meal?

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Well, I think mostly because of where I lived the
last five years, up at one hundred and ninety fIF Street,
which is a largely Dominican neighborhood.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
It was not.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
It was a little food desert and like the nearest
thing to walk to was like a Starbucks ten minutes away.
But we had a bodega on the corner that did
cheat your own and like the sweet plantains and the
rice and beans stop it. And my favorite memory was
the guy who uh who owned it, who was the
behind the cashier cash register. He always had a box
of avocados behind him and when you asked for one,

(43:00):
he would literally go through and feel like dozens of them,
find you the perfect one. So I never had a
bad avocado in New York in those years because he
would always pick you the best one can sell it
to you. And that so that meal a lot of
top of teo on it. We would have probably have
like once a week, and it was my favorite thing.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Man, let me tell you something right now. You just
that's my love language is when you start saying yeah,
got there, like yes, oh man, all right, so you
made it out here to La, Like, what's next? What's next?
For Ben Mimes? Man, I mean, how how's life? You
just kind of chill in La Times is good?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
La Times is good? Uh, who knows? But I mean,
definitely I'm working on a cookbook right now. Actually that
is about cookies from all over the world, so I'll
be baking a lot of cookies recently and doing that
kind of stuff. So definitely more cookbooks. It's always fund
out a project like that to work on.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
It's amazing, man, it sounds good, Ben, as the British
call them, biscuits.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yes, exactly you're making.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
So you're basically making a biscuit book now, yes British terms, yes, yes, Yes,
that's awesome man. Well I'll look out for that here
at Flaky Biscuit. You already I don't know if we've
prepped you for. But we got to play a little
game before we get on to the ending. We don't
play a little we call it the Flaky game. Don't trip.
It's gonna be nice and simple. And we got benms.

(44:15):
You know what I'm saying. We had to I was
about to say we had a reindeer. I don't know
why I keep thinking we had reindeer. It's just deer. Yeah,
I work for I do content for Oonie, and one
of the owners is from Finland, and they be talking
about eating reindeer with lingen berries or something like that, which.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Is mostly just a that.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, rein deer with lingoenberry sounds like a Michelin star dish,
whereas like deer with on the trap Louisiana trap. All right,
so we're gonna play our game. I'm asking some questions.
It's multiple choice, man, ain't going you know what I'm saying,
Multiple choice man, talk about nostalgia. Man, that brings me
back to like fourth grade. I'm like, oh shoot, I
got that test exactly. I got to fill in the

(44:59):
little b the above. Should we start printing it out
and putting the little and make them feel in a
little bit scan trunk trying to have number two pencil? Yeah,
Scandra and the sharpener.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
You got to be like that.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
All right, here we go Number one. I'm soft, I'm simple,
and I'm dropped from a spoon. What kind of biscuit?
Am I? Am I hobnob? Am I a tea biscuit?
Am I a drop biscuit? Or am I an oreo cookie?

Speaker 2 (45:32):
You're a drop biscuit?

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah? Sometimes I love opening this document like Bridge prepare
and I'm just like a hob nob.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
It's a biscuit. It's a British biscuit. Really, Oh shoot,
I think it's like an oat biscuit that maybe has
like one side dipped in chocolate. I know they make
a chocolate version.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Food whole about biscuits and cookies, all right, one of
the key components to making flaky biscuits. Oh but you
don't whatever he didn't like. He doesn't play with one
of the key components of making flaky business using blank
warm butter, cold butter, sour dough starter, or cold hands.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
M M looks the trick question cold butter.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
See. I like what you did there. You know that
you could actually use any tempt butter to make a
good see. See this is a good learning point for
the listeners. And I want you to actually talk about this.
So the whole thing of like you got to use
super cold butter. You think that's bullshit? You know what
it is.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
I think it is a way to prevent a novice
or someone who's starting out from making a mistake. So like,
if you overdo it and make the butter too cold,
fine because by the time they kind of over the
butter will be the right tperatures.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Most people are laminating thereby warming up that cold butter.
So you're basically saying you could use butter that's not
that cold, don't touch the dough, and you have a
perfect biscuits.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
One have cold hands, which some people I have cold heads,
so I feel like it works for me. But I've
seen people who just genetically or whatever about their body
have hot hands. It just like melts everything. So I
mean that is a so That's why I'm like, I
don't freeze my bowl or freeze my flower, do all
that stuff. But I'm like, you know what if that's
going to help someone else who maybe either has hot
hands or doesn't have the experience to know when it's ready,

(47:18):
give them extra insurance. Great, you run in for office
on I would never is he heard the.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Question, knew the answer I needed, answered it, and then
double back and said that shit is bush.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Trying to you know, be fully rounded.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Here you had the flaky game, savage. So we switching
from the biscus. Now we go into something else in
South Africa. That's right, everybody got quiet. In South Africa.
Venison comes from which of the following animals? Is it
a lion, is it a mer cat? Is it kudu?
Or is it a zebra?

Speaker 2 (47:55):
So what they call venison, I don't know what a
kudoo is. Someone have to say z because that's the
most like deer like animals.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
So I should have described a kudu is is basically
a South African deer.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
I say a spring bok, which I feel like is
like a deer for them as well as well. An Yeah, exactly,
because like I was, I was reading about venison. I
don't know too much about it, but you know, so
deer and elk right, but in South Africa antelope kudu.
I think even wild bores considered venice. Oh weird, Yeah,

(48:30):
something like that.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
All right, we got one more question for you. Which
dish is thought to have influenced the introduction of chicken
fried steak into Southern cooking. The reason I bring that
up is because this deer was prepared similar to kind
of a chicken fried steak, So which dish is thought
to have influenced that introduction? And again, you know, when
it comes to food history, as you know, as I

(48:51):
you know, it's easy to like do a bunch of
research and then all your research says we think it
came from that. You know, you want to be at
the tato. Yeah, was it a hamburger? Was it hush puppies?
Was it wiener schnitzel or was ito?

Speaker 2 (49:09):
It seems like it would be schnitzel because the same
type of like flat meat bread and fried.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Absolutely right, that's absolutely right. I believe it was German
and Austrians in Texas in the nineteenth century.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
I was telling you earlier, like it's very much for me,
a Texas, Oklahoma thing more than it is the rest
of the South.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's one hundred percent right. So I
think you I think you get a pass on the
floor if you because came kind of came at you
a little like what I was.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Like, what is that zebra?

Speaker 1 (49:38):
I mean, do people eat zebra?

Speaker 2 (49:39):
I'm sure someone has eaten zebra.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Someone's eating Yes, I'm not eating horse.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Or I've had horse horse. I've had like raw horse
in Italy. What you like a tar like tartar situation?

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Oh, horse tartar?

Speaker 2 (49:53):
How it was? It tasted like beefer this venicon. It
was like kind of creamy and mile. I feel like
it's probably farmed and it was weird, so.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
It's probably just beef. And then they call it horse
to make you perk up.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Probably maybe, but they said it was horse, so I
was like, all right, I'll try.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
It, oh, ben Man. So you know, again, as we
end our episode, we like to talk about ways that
you you know, help out in the community, organizations or causes,
and we're here now to talk about the Transgenderal Law Center,
and I would love for you to let our listeners
know what exactly that is, and why that's something that's

(50:26):
important to you at this stage in your career. Why
is this special to you?

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, for me, I mean, as you can see, like
being someone who my only kind of like not privilege
that I have is that I'm not straight, but like
I'm a cisgendered white man, I have a lot of
privilege that comes along with that. And from seeing friends
over my life for other people in my life who
don't have the same privileges as me, see how they
have suffered or been treated in public like you said before,

(50:51):
or not gotten jobs, and like knowing and seeing the
reasons why behind the scenes and everything it's like has
made me be like, Okay, every success that I have,
I want to try to help as much people as
possible and not to be like a savior complex thing,
but just like what can I do with the resources
that I have and the privileges that I have. And
so the Transgender Law Center for me, it's as a
gay man who again, who has all these privileges. I

(51:13):
can't remember who said it, but it's the thing where
until the least of us is strong and on the
like in a wonderful level where they can be themselves
as they are, then none of us have those that
freedom yet. I kind of butcher that saying. But it's
more like I want to help the people who don't
have what I have and like who still need help.
And I mean right now, my god, like the trans
bands that are going on all across the country, and

(51:34):
it's really a scary time. I cannot imagine being a
transwoman or a transman and going through this, and just
like the way that you feel from hearing all this
news and the way people may treat you. So it's
Southern states too, yeah, because they're the most afraid of it.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
They're they're in lives. The love hate relationship is as
clear as day. Yes, when you open up the news,
it's not a coincidence that these are the states there's
Rick de Santists and all these kind of people that
are doing all this kind of stuff. Yeah, it's insane.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah, And like in seeing the hate first Clo, it's
like growing up with it and seeing it around me
and like you've experienced as well. I just want to
do what I can to kind of help support people
who who need that help. So for me, the Transgender
Law Center they fund they help support people in lawsuits
or to kind of try to fight these bands and
these bills that have no basis in reality, and they're

(52:23):
really awful and damaging to people. Because I don't know
the right path of what to do, but they do.
So I just want to give them the money and
bring awareness to them so that they can be able
to do their work that they need to do with
all the resources that they need.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
And is there like a volunteer situation or is it
more kind of donation supporting base.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
I've always donated and supported that way, but I'm sure
there probably is.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Yeah. Well, yeah, so there's Transgender Law Center dot org.
I'm sure, you know, we can find all the information
that we need. But it is something that is alarmingly intensifying.
Oh yeah, it's intensifying at an alarming rate. The attack
on women's rights, an attack on as rights. Black trans
people have a very hard time as well. So I
think it's very important, you know, we come out of this.

(53:06):
You know, we eating the deer and it's nice, but
it is nice to also sit back, you know, wherever
you are as a listener, if you're driving a work
or if you're sitting at home, you eating dinner. Keep
in your mind the reality of what's happening to a
large population of people right now. There's active hate against them.
It's terrifying, and they don't have many resources sometimes. So

(53:28):
this is a really important one. How are we going
to really make this right and help people that are
in need? So, you know, Shanna Land dot com, make
the recipe, but more importantly, let's look into the transgender
last Center and really make let's be on the right side.
Don't mess this up exactly, of course, absolutely, my god, yeah,

(53:49):
Ben memes Man, what a treat, What a treat, What
a pleasure? Honestly, just you know, human and human. This
has been really, really fun.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
It's been a pleasure for me as well. And I
respect you immensely and I love your cookbooks and all
the work that you do. So this has been a
privilege for me.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Thank you so much, Ben, Thank y'all so much for
listening today. Fam. If y'all want to make the deer
meat for yourself, find the recipe on Shondaland dot com.
And Fam, I want to know how this goes. This
is a very very delicious recipe. You gotta go find

(54:24):
you some deer meat, you know, maybe you're using the
bow and arrow. Go in to your local game butcher shop, whatever,
but go get that deer meat. Tag me Artis and
Brian tag Ben mimes as at Benbmemes and post a
photo and some videos letting us know how y'all did.
One quick piece of advice, make sure you don't skimp
on that buttermilk soak with the Louisiana hot sauce. It's

(54:48):
really gonna bring out that tenderness, cut through the gaminess
a little bit if you're not used to that, and yeah,
it's gonna be absolutely phenomenal. So please please tag us
let us know how you did, and don't forget to
check out the trend Law Center at transgenderlowcenter dot org.
You can find my handle and all the links I
mentioned in the show notes for this episode. If you

(55:10):
like Flaky Biscuit, rate it, review it five stars, ten stars.
All right, this is the best food podcast ever exist.
Make sure that you let everyone know that. Flaky Biscuit
is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, alex Alja, Lauren Homan,
Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our creative producer is Bridget
Kenna and our editor and producer is Nicholas Harder, with

(55:32):
music by Crucial. Recipes from Flaky Biscuit can be found
each week on shondaland dot Com. Subscribe to the Shondaland
YouTube channel for more Flaky Biscuit content. Flaky Biscuit is
a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

(55:55):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.