August 19, 2024 • 24 mins
In the second episode of The Girlfriends’ Guide, we learn how to tackle domestic violence in our own lives from the people who fight it every single day.
If you are affected by this episode please reach out to NO MORE at https://nomore.org/girlfriends, a domestic violence charity we’ve partnered with.
Other useful links:
https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/the-survivors-handbook/
The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for iHeartRadio.
For more from Novel visit novel.audio
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Novel.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi, this is The Girlfriend's Guide, where I use expert interviews,
real life experiences, and research to show you how to
fight crime and keep your girlfriends safe. Today, we're heading
back to the Pace Women's Justice Center aka Gail's House,
which we.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Visited in season one.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We're going to learn how to tackle domestic violence in
our own lives from the people who fight it every
single day. Just a warning, there are stories of domestic
abuse and mentions of suicide coming up.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
If you need any support.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Or advice, please reach out to our charity partners no
More at no More dot org. Hi'm Anisinfield and from
the teams at Novel.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
And iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
You're listening to The Girlfriend Friend's Guide, Episode three, dealing
with intimate partner violence.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I had met him as a sophomore in high school,
so really it was my only relationship. Everything was wonderful
at first, and then little incidents would happen and it
escalated to the point of physical violence. And I was
told that these incidents happened because I failed. I failed
(01:41):
as a wife, was a girlfriend, a mother, as a daughter,
I failed, and therefore it happened.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
This is Debbie, that's not her real name. We actually
met when I was reporting on Gail Katz's murder at
the hands of her husband, Bob Beerenbaum. I want to
to get a better understanding of the abuse that Gail
experienced in their marriage. Like in Gail's case, the abuse
Debbie endured grew worse with time. It started out as
(02:10):
her husband being controlling, losing his temper, and then sharing
her with affection that's known as love bombing. Sometimes all
of those things would roll into one, like this one time,
when he became hell bent on buying Debbie an expensive
gift from overseas for her birthday. It was turning into
such a fuss to buy it that Debbie eventually suggested
(02:31):
he just drop it and buy something else because she
didn't actually want it anyway. This then turned into a
raging row, with Debbie just managing to get away despite
her husband's attempts to stop her. She went to stay
with a friend, but he wouldn't leave her alone.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
It was an onslaught. It was text messages. It was
phone calls every two seconds, like Carl ring five times
before it goes to voicemail, hanger, call back again, hang up,
leaving messages, sending voicemail, sending voice audio through the text.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
She couldn't escape her husband at home or out of
the house, and.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
By that time I just had decided I can't live
like this and the only way out was for me
to commit suicide.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Debbie then checked into a mental health facility for.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
A week, and within the first twenty four hours meeting
the therapist, they pointed out to me, this isn't you,
it's him. He was calling the hospital and he was
harassing the nurses. So he became banned from the hospital
and they literally told him, if you show up here,
we'll call security and you'll be arrested.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
At one point, Debbie's husband decided to flip the narrative.
He told Debbie's therapists that she was abusive towards their child,
an accusation that they are legally bound to escalate into
an investigation.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
The therapist heard what he said, and she said, are
you saying that she's not a good mother and that
she puts your child in danger? And he said, well,
she's afraid of her. So they separated us and they
had to call their mandated reporters. He was interviewed, my
child was interviewed, and then the investigator came to interview
(04:23):
me and he said to me, he happened to be
a therapist as well, and he said, I know what's
going on. I've spoken to your therapist here. I spoke
to them. I know exactly what's going on here. It's
not you. I'm actually going to not investigate you. That
therapist then pointed out to my husband at the time
(04:44):
and to me and said, do you hear what you're saying.
You're being abusive. You're clearly exerting control over her. You're
clearly not even allowing her to answer questions.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
But despite everyone acknowledging the emotional abuse DEBU experiencing, it
didn't result in an immediate arrest or a restraining order,
or even a police investigation. She was surrounded by resources
for victims of domestic abuse, but it felt like she
could access them because the abuse was never quote unquote
(05:17):
bad enough. So when she left the hospital, she felt
helpless and confused and without options.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I went back. So there's some kind of national statistic,
or it might be even a global statistic that a
victim of domestic violence it takes him up to seven
attempts on ourage to actually extricate yourself from the place.
Everything that happened during this argument that I mentioned that
caused me to go to a hospital and have a breakdown,
(05:49):
that wasn't rising to the level of a crime. It
was all psychological, emotional mental abuse. It was literally the
perfect crime.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But for the first time in decades, Debbie had really
challenged her husband by going to hospital. She left, and
she told people what he'd been doing to her. When
she returned home, his emotional abuse and control worsened, and
soon it became physical.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
The last twenty four hours, it was a physical attack
with hands around my neck, and I was told that
I needed to leave. You need to pack your bags
and leave the next day. And I agreed to it
because I said, this is great, this is my way out.
He's asking me to leave. I'm not leaving him. And
(06:37):
I had a sliding glass door behind me, and I
knew this wasn't going to end well. Prior to that,
he had told me he was going to kill me.
So I slid the sliding gas door and I went
out of it, and he went around the desk to
chase me. There was a gate to the backyard there.
I opened the gate and he grabbed me and I
(06:59):
held on to that post by two arms and wrapped
myself around it as much as I could, and he
put me in a chokehold.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
In a desperate attempt to break free, Debbie bit his
arm until he let go.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And then I turned around and ran. My only got
about ten fifteen feet where he tackled me. So I
flailed and I screamed and I yelled. And I had
heard once that when you're attacked that you should just
make as much noise and be as big as you can.
So that's what I did. And he got scared, so
(07:34):
he left. He went inside. I didn't have a wallet,
I didn't have my phone, I didn't have my bag,
I didn't have car keys.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Looking battered and bruised, Debbie decided to make a break
for it.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
She walked to the.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Supermarket and asked to borrow their phone, and that's where
she called her friend to come and get her. Finally
she was free, and now she had a crime to
report against her husband that the police couldn't ignore. Sadly,
what happened to Debbie is far from unique, So what
(08:13):
can we do to stop it? After the break, we'll
hear from Cindy Kanisher the executive director of the Pace
Women's Justice Center, on what people like Debbie, victims of
intimate partner violence, can do to break the cycle of abuse.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I'm Cindy Canisher, the executive director of the Pace Women's
Justice Center.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
The Pace Women's Justice Center in Westchester, New York is
close to our hearts here on the Girlfriends. Girl's sister
Elaine Katz, has been heavily involved in their board and
fundraising efforts for many years now. They even renamed their
building Gail's House, and every single day they help women
just like Gail to access life saving advice and legal aid.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So Cindia is the perfect person.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
To ask for advice on how to deal with domestic abuse.
And her first tip is a spade's a spade. You've
got to call it what it is.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
You know, there's not one definition of what domestic balance is.
But really at the crux of when we talk about
domestic balance and when I think about it, it's about
power and control. It could be as small as you know,
having to tell your partner where you're going all the time,
and if you don't say, oh, I'm not coming home
(09:48):
from work, I'm going out with my friends or you
have to ask permission to do that.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Maybe it's just that one little thing at the beginning,
but that's part of control, right, because there's that imbalance
of power. So there are so many different ways that
that power and control can exist, even if it's not physical, right,
very very often it's more than physical abuse going on.
(10:14):
And sometimes even before the physical abuse, it's the psychological
and emotional abuse. And sometimes that's all there is, but
that could be even more difficult for someone to deal with, right,
because it affects your sense of self and who you.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Are tip too. Knowledge is power.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
So to the extent that you can do so safely,
find a resource in your community to reach out to.
Even if someone's not ready to leave and you're not
sure what you want to do, it's really important to
know what your options are. Right, So legally, what can
(10:54):
you do? So many victims of domestic violence come to
us they've remained in the relationship for a long time
because they were told that if they left, their children
would be taken away from them, or their immigration status
would be removed, or something's been held over them that
(11:15):
sort of involves their legal rights, and it's not true,
and so it's really important to have the knowledge and
power that you get from that so that you can
make a decision about your options. I want people to
know that there are people out there that care and
that will be there to support you and listen to
(11:36):
you in whatever path you want to take.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Tip's three.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
If you suspect someone you know is experiencing domestic violence,
offer them consistent support.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
It could be a really uncomfortable conversation for someone who's
living through abuse to be approached. It can also be
unsafe because oftentimes keeping the secret is what's keeping them safe,
and if the abuser finds out that someone else knows,
so you have to think about safety issues. And it
(12:06):
could just be saying you know, I'm here for you
if you ever want to talk to me about anything,
or I can help you get you numbers or whatever,
and know that they may be met with I don't
know what you're talking about, but it's important to say
that you're there because at some point they'll know, when
(12:29):
they're ready to reach out, that there's somebody there for them.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Just like out curiosity, does there happen to be a
kind of singular website that people can go to and
they can find the service in their host code.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
There's the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence and CADV, which is,
you know, a national organization that probably has lists of
different organizations across the country. In New York, for example,
there's the New York State Coalition Against a Stick Violence,
So they have a list I know of every DV
(13:03):
organization in New York and where they're located and how
to contact them. So there are ways to find.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Women's Aid have a useful resource called the Survivor's Handbook
on their website.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
We'll put the link in the description of this episode.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
It's got loads of specific advice for each circumstance. But
a few things stood out that didn't come up in
my chat with Cindy, and this one felt important. The
number one tip is before leaving, make a safety plan,
and they had a useful checklist which I'm going to
read out. Number one, find times your partner is away
from the house to leave. Number two, pack all the
(13:41):
important documents for yourself and your children, things like passports,
birth certificates, medical records, that sort of thing. Three, pack
essentials whatever you can take, remember the really important stuff
like medication, and four have the phone numbers you need
to hand. That's your local domestic abuse service, police, domestic
violence unit, GP, social worker, children's school, solicitor, the really
(14:06):
important people who are you're in case of emergency contacts.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Five.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Teach your children how to dial emergency services nine one
one nine nine. Nine. Teach them what to do and
how to do it and in what circumstances they might
have to make that call.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Six.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
If you have neighbors you can trust, tell them about
your plan and when you want to leave, ask them
to call the police if there's any signs of violence.
Seven leave an emergency bag with someone you trust. That
could be the neighbor as well, or it could be
a friend or a colleague.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Eight.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Keep money with you at all times for bus fairs, taxis,
and if you have a car, make sure that the
tanks full of petrol.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Nine.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Scout out the safest place to go. They might know
that you're at your parents, for example, so think about
various options that could be safe for you.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Ten.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Along with all of this research and planning, do consider
your digital safety. A lot of abusive part partners monitor
their spouse's digital footprint, so be careful there and once
you have left, change your passwords after you leave and
add two factor authentication to anything that supports it. But really,
the best solution to intimate partner violence is if none
(15:17):
of this planning were ever necessary for anyone and instead
we stopped the violence at its source, which brings me
to Cindy's fourth tip.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Educate early.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
There's a lot of prevention work in schools about what
it looks like to be in a healthy relationship where
it's not a healthy relationship. You know, hopefully if they
can identify it, then they'll be able to not continue
on with the relationship at a younger age.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Ges do so much.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah, we're like the little engine that could you know
this this you know, group of thirty four just doing
a lot of work and helping as many people as
we can. And you know, we always keep a picture
of Gail in our office and you know, I walk
by it and I think, this is why we're here
because we don't to the extent that we can stop it.
We don't want that to ever happen again. And providing
(16:13):
all these services upfront and support hopefully hopefully as doing.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
That, and they really do. They save the lives of
people like Gail and Debbie. After the break we'll hear
how Debbie rebuilt her life with the help of lots
of therapy, domestic violence charities, and a little laughter. After
(17:03):
the assault, Debbie's friend picked her up from the supermarket
that day. They reported Debbie's husband to the police and
then he was arrested.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
This time around, he committed a crime. He assaulted me,
he harassed me, he tried to impede my breathing. He
completely had risen to the level of a crime, and
so the immediate court provided me with an order of
protection the criminal court, but I did have to go
to family court.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Debbie met with a domestic violence charity who provided some
free legal support.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And they helped me with an additional order of protection
from the family court, and so he was immediately removed
from the home.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
But then Debbie had to start doing the hardest bit,
unraveling decades of her life and trying to figure out
who she was without her husband.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Once he was out. I had three types of counseling,
and I went religiously, so I had domestic violence counseling,
I had a peer support group with other victims of
domestic abuse, and I had a therapist. Many people end
up in an abusive relationship again because they haven't had
(18:17):
the opportunity to really heal.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Debbie started to want to help others like her, so
she got involved in grassroots initiatives and trained to help
other victims of domestic violence.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
And I volunteered doing that for sexual assault, and then
I trained as a divorce mediator because I wanted to
understand the mechanics of the law and how all of
that works, so that I could speak not just from
my experience, but from a different level.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Debbie now works full time in the domestic violence space,
helping women just like her. But like so many victims
she encounters, she finds herself haunted by the same age
old question.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Why didn't you leave? And it's a difficult question for
anyone to answer, but people don't leave because abuse is
built on a thread and then interwoven into a relationship.
(19:21):
The longer the relationship, the more threads that are interwoven
in there, the stronger the fabric of abuse, and so.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
It becomes a tremendous challenge to unravel it. I think
it depends on the person, the individual, It depends on
the universe. So what can we as a community as
a world do right I think just be there.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Is it really journeying to talk about it? Not any longer.
On the side, I actually do stand up comedy for fun.
Have used it as therapy now and it's actually been great.
I actually did a whole bit on I was married
to a real narcissist. Not the kind of narcissist that
(20:13):
is all to sexyfulm to sexy for myself to No,
not that kind of way, like when Hurricane Sandy was
going to hit our area. Damn, that's all I need
a hurricane, Or when I had cancer. I don't know
how I'm going to survive this. I thought chema was toxic,
(20:36):
tri suffocating, narcissism. It's your truth.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
You can say whatever you want about it and laughter
there's healing, and if you can feel that pain, then
you can find something to laugh about because you're now
on that other side.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
It's not as dark as you know. It got worse
and I stayed there. I can't laugh about it, but
you can talk about your own experience and you feel
the horrible mess and pain. You're out of it now
you can look back at it. It's definitely a way
of healing, and it also makes it a lot easier
to discuss the ugly and the fact that I'm able
(21:16):
to just say it, not scripted, just to have a
conversation and talk about it. It takes these barriers away.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I love that Debbie has figured out how to laugh
about some of those dark moments. Standing on stage and
poking fun at her abuser is not only very brave,
but it's also an amazing way to take back control
of her story. It's a philosophy that's at the heart
of the girlfriends. I really do believe that women use
(21:48):
laughter and gossip to take control of their narratives and
support and protect each other. It's a way of saying,
I'm here, nothing's going to shock me. In fact, I'll
find a way to make you smile in the face
of it, even if you don't know how to write now.
As Cindy said, sometimes the best thing you can do
for a friend going through a hard thing is to simply,
(22:10):
through actions and words, remind them that you'll always be
there if they need you. But every case is different,
So if you suspect someone you love is experiencing domestic abuse,
do reach out to an expert for advice. There'll be
local resources in your area or please feel free to
contact our charity partner no More.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
They offer global support.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
To anyone who is worried about domestic abuse or sexual
violence in their own or loved one's lives. Will pop
a link in the description Until next time, As always,
hold your Girlfriend's Tight to. The Girlfriend's Guide is produced
(23:02):
by Novel for iHeartRadio. For more from Novel, visit novel
dot Audio. This episode is produced and hosted by me
Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr and we've
had some fantastic additional production by Lee Meyer, the Ona
Hamid and Zaianna Yusuf. Max O'Brien is our executive producer.
(23:24):
Production management from Shrie Houston and Charlotte Wolfe. Sound design,
mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music
supervision by me Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music
composed and performed by Louisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa
Gerstein and you guessed It Nicholas Alexander. The series artwork
(23:46):
was designed by Christina Limcol. Story development by me Anna Sinfield.
Willard Foxton is creative director and our executive producers at
iHeart are Katrina Norvell and Nicki Etoor. Special thanks to
Alie Cantor, Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts,
as well as Carl Frankel and the whole team at
(24:07):
w m E.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I God, I Go,
Novel.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi, this is The Girlfriend's Guide, where I use expert interviews,
real life experiences, and research to show you how to
fight crime and keep your girlfriends safe. Today, we're heading
back to the Pace Women's Justice Center aka Gail's House,
which we.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Visited in season one.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We're going to learn how to tackle domestic violence in
our own lives from the people who fight it every
single day. Just a warning, there are stories of domestic
abuse and mentions of suicide coming up.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
If you need any support.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Or advice, please reach out to our charity partners no
More at no More dot org. Hi'm Anisinfield and from
the teams at Novel.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
And iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
You're listening to The Girlfriend Friend's Guide, Episode three, dealing
with intimate partner violence.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I had met him as a sophomore in high school,
so really it was my only relationship. Everything was wonderful
at first, and then little incidents would happen and it
escalated to the point of physical violence. And I was
told that these incidents happened because I failed. I failed
(01:41):
as a wife, was a girlfriend, a mother, as a daughter,
I failed, and therefore it happened.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
This is Debbie, that's not her real name. We actually
met when I was reporting on Gail Katz's murder at
the hands of her husband, Bob Beerenbaum. I want to
to get a better understanding of the abuse that Gail
experienced in their marriage. Like in Gail's case, the abuse
Debbie endured grew worse with time. It started out as
(02:10):
her husband being controlling, losing his temper, and then sharing
her with affection that's known as love bombing. Sometimes all
of those things would roll into one, like this one time,
when he became hell bent on buying Debbie an expensive
gift from overseas for her birthday. It was turning into
such a fuss to buy it that Debbie eventually suggested
(02:31):
he just drop it and buy something else because she
didn't actually want it anyway. This then turned into a
raging row, with Debbie just managing to get away despite
her husband's attempts to stop her. She went to stay
with a friend, but he wouldn't leave her alone.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
It was an onslaught. It was text messages. It was
phone calls every two seconds, like Carl ring five times
before it goes to voicemail, hanger, call back again, hang up,
leaving messages, sending voicemail, sending voice audio through the text.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
She couldn't escape her husband at home or out of
the house, and.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
By that time I just had decided I can't live
like this and the only way out was for me
to commit suicide.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Debbie then checked into a mental health facility for.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
A week, and within the first twenty four hours meeting
the therapist, they pointed out to me, this isn't you,
it's him. He was calling the hospital and he was
harassing the nurses. So he became banned from the hospital
and they literally told him, if you show up here,
we'll call security and you'll be arrested.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
At one point, Debbie's husband decided to flip the narrative.
He told Debbie's therapists that she was abusive towards their child,
an accusation that they are legally bound to escalate into
an investigation.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
The therapist heard what he said, and she said, are
you saying that she's not a good mother and that
she puts your child in danger? And he said, well,
she's afraid of her. So they separated us and they
had to call their mandated reporters. He was interviewed, my
child was interviewed, and then the investigator came to interview
(04:23):
me and he said to me, he happened to be
a therapist as well, and he said, I know what's
going on. I've spoken to your therapist here. I spoke
to them. I know exactly what's going on here. It's
not you. I'm actually going to not investigate you. That
therapist then pointed out to my husband at the time
(04:44):
and to me and said, do you hear what you're saying.
You're being abusive. You're clearly exerting control over her. You're
clearly not even allowing her to answer questions.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
But despite everyone acknowledging the emotional abuse DEBU experiencing, it
didn't result in an immediate arrest or a restraining order,
or even a police investigation. She was surrounded by resources
for victims of domestic abuse, but it felt like she
could access them because the abuse was never quote unquote
(05:17):
bad enough. So when she left the hospital, she felt
helpless and confused and without options.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I went back. So there's some kind of national statistic,
or it might be even a global statistic that a
victim of domestic violence it takes him up to seven
attempts on ourage to actually extricate yourself from the place.
Everything that happened during this argument that I mentioned that
caused me to go to a hospital and have a breakdown,
(05:49):
that wasn't rising to the level of a crime. It
was all psychological, emotional mental abuse. It was literally the
perfect crime.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But for the first time in decades, Debbie had really
challenged her husband by going to hospital. She left, and
she told people what he'd been doing to her. When
she returned home, his emotional abuse and control worsened, and
soon it became physical.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
The last twenty four hours, it was a physical attack
with hands around my neck, and I was told that
I needed to leave. You need to pack your bags
and leave the next day. And I agreed to it
because I said, this is great, this is my way out.
He's asking me to leave. I'm not leaving him. And
(06:37):
I had a sliding glass door behind me, and I
knew this wasn't going to end well. Prior to that,
he had told me he was going to kill me.
So I slid the sliding gas door and I went
out of it, and he went around the desk to
chase me. There was a gate to the backyard there.
I opened the gate and he grabbed me and I
(06:59):
held on to that post by two arms and wrapped
myself around it as much as I could, and he
put me in a chokehold.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
In a desperate attempt to break free, Debbie bit his
arm until he let go.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And then I turned around and ran. My only got
about ten fifteen feet where he tackled me. So I
flailed and I screamed and I yelled. And I had
heard once that when you're attacked that you should just
make as much noise and be as big as you can.
So that's what I did. And he got scared, so
(07:34):
he left. He went inside. I didn't have a wallet,
I didn't have my phone, I didn't have my bag,
I didn't have car keys.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Looking battered and bruised, Debbie decided to make a break
for it.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
She walked to the.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Supermarket and asked to borrow their phone, and that's where
she called her friend to come and get her. Finally
she was free, and now she had a crime to
report against her husband that the police couldn't ignore. Sadly,
what happened to Debbie is far from unique, So what
(08:13):
can we do to stop it? After the break, we'll
hear from Cindy Kanisher the executive director of the Pace
Women's Justice Center, on what people like Debbie, victims of
intimate partner violence, can do to break the cycle of abuse.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I'm Cindy Canisher, the executive director of the Pace Women's
Justice Center.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
The Pace Women's Justice Center in Westchester, New York is
close to our hearts here on the Girlfriends. Girl's sister
Elaine Katz, has been heavily involved in their board and
fundraising efforts for many years now. They even renamed their
building Gail's House, and every single day they help women
just like Gail to access life saving advice and legal aid.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So Cindia is the perfect person.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
To ask for advice on how to deal with domestic abuse.
And her first tip is a spade's a spade. You've
got to call it what it is.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
You know, there's not one definition of what domestic balance is.
But really at the crux of when we talk about
domestic balance and when I think about it, it's about
power and control. It could be as small as you know,
having to tell your partner where you're going all the time,
and if you don't say, oh, I'm not coming home
(09:48):
from work, I'm going out with my friends or you
have to ask permission to do that.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Maybe it's just that one little thing at the beginning,
but that's part of control, right, because there's that imbalance
of power. So there are so many different ways that
that power and control can exist, even if it's not physical, right,
very very often it's more than physical abuse going on.
(10:14):
And sometimes even before the physical abuse, it's the psychological
and emotional abuse. And sometimes that's all there is, but
that could be even more difficult for someone to deal with, right,
because it affects your sense of self and who you.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Are tip too. Knowledge is power.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
So to the extent that you can do so safely,
find a resource in your community to reach out to.
Even if someone's not ready to leave and you're not
sure what you want to do, it's really important to
know what your options are. Right, So legally, what can
(10:54):
you do? So many victims of domestic violence come to
us they've remained in the relationship for a long time
because they were told that if they left, their children
would be taken away from them, or their immigration status
would be removed, or something's been held over them that
(11:15):
sort of involves their legal rights, and it's not true,
and so it's really important to have the knowledge and
power that you get from that so that you can
make a decision about your options. I want people to
know that there are people out there that care and
that will be there to support you and listen to
(11:36):
you in whatever path you want to take.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Tip's three.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
If you suspect someone you know is experiencing domestic violence,
offer them consistent support.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
It could be a really uncomfortable conversation for someone who's
living through abuse to be approached. It can also be
unsafe because oftentimes keeping the secret is what's keeping them safe,
and if the abuser finds out that someone else knows,
so you have to think about safety issues. And it
(12:06):
could just be saying you know, I'm here for you
if you ever want to talk to me about anything,
or I can help you get you numbers or whatever,
and know that they may be met with I don't
know what you're talking about, but it's important to say
that you're there because at some point they'll know, when
(12:29):
they're ready to reach out, that there's somebody there for them.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Just like out curiosity, does there happen to be a
kind of singular website that people can go to and
they can find the service in their host code.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
There's the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence and CADV, which is,
you know, a national organization that probably has lists of
different organizations across the country. In New York, for example,
there's the New York State Coalition Against a Stick Violence,
So they have a list I know of every DV
(13:03):
organization in New York and where they're located and how
to contact them. So there are ways to find.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Women's Aid have a useful resource called the Survivor's Handbook
on their website.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
We'll put the link in the description of this episode.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
It's got loads of specific advice for each circumstance. But
a few things stood out that didn't come up in
my chat with Cindy, and this one felt important. The
number one tip is before leaving, make a safety plan,
and they had a useful checklist which I'm going to
read out. Number one, find times your partner is away
from the house to leave. Number two, pack all the
(13:41):
important documents for yourself and your children, things like passports,
birth certificates, medical records, that sort of thing. Three, pack
essentials whatever you can take, remember the really important stuff
like medication, and four have the phone numbers you need
to hand. That's your local domestic abuse service, police, domestic
violence unit, GP, social worker, children's school, solicitor, the really
(14:06):
important people who are you're in case of emergency contacts.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Five.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Teach your children how to dial emergency services nine one
one nine nine. Nine. Teach them what to do and
how to do it and in what circumstances they might
have to make that call.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Six.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
If you have neighbors you can trust, tell them about
your plan and when you want to leave, ask them
to call the police if there's any signs of violence.
Seven leave an emergency bag with someone you trust. That
could be the neighbor as well, or it could be
a friend or a colleague.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Eight.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Keep money with you at all times for bus fairs, taxis,
and if you have a car, make sure that the
tanks full of petrol.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Nine.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Scout out the safest place to go. They might know
that you're at your parents, for example, so think about
various options that could be safe for you.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Ten.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Along with all of this research and planning, do consider
your digital safety. A lot of abusive part partners monitor
their spouse's digital footprint, so be careful there and once
you have left, change your passwords after you leave and
add two factor authentication to anything that supports it. But really,
the best solution to intimate partner violence is if none
(15:17):
of this planning were ever necessary for anyone and instead
we stopped the violence at its source, which brings me
to Cindy's fourth tip.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Educate early.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
There's a lot of prevention work in schools about what
it looks like to be in a healthy relationship where
it's not a healthy relationship. You know, hopefully if they
can identify it, then they'll be able to not continue
on with the relationship at a younger age.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Ges do so much.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah, we're like the little engine that could you know
this this you know, group of thirty four just doing
a lot of work and helping as many people as
we can. And you know, we always keep a picture
of Gail in our office and you know, I walk
by it and I think, this is why we're here
because we don't to the extent that we can stop it.
We don't want that to ever happen again. And providing
(16:13):
all these services upfront and support hopefully hopefully as doing.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
That, and they really do. They save the lives of
people like Gail and Debbie. After the break we'll hear
how Debbie rebuilt her life with the help of lots
of therapy, domestic violence charities, and a little laughter. After
(17:03):
the assault, Debbie's friend picked her up from the supermarket
that day. They reported Debbie's husband to the police and
then he was arrested.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
This time around, he committed a crime. He assaulted me,
he harassed me, he tried to impede my breathing. He
completely had risen to the level of a crime, and
so the immediate court provided me with an order of
protection the criminal court, but I did have to go
to family court.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Debbie met with a domestic violence charity who provided some
free legal support.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And they helped me with an additional order of protection
from the family court, and so he was immediately removed
from the home.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
But then Debbie had to start doing the hardest bit,
unraveling decades of her life and trying to figure out
who she was without her husband.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Once he was out. I had three types of counseling,
and I went religiously, so I had domestic violence counseling,
I had a peer support group with other victims of
domestic abuse, and I had a therapist. Many people end
up in an abusive relationship again because they haven't had
(18:17):
the opportunity to really heal.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Debbie started to want to help others like her, so
she got involved in grassroots initiatives and trained to help
other victims of domestic violence.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
And I volunteered doing that for sexual assault, and then
I trained as a divorce mediator because I wanted to
understand the mechanics of the law and how all of
that works, so that I could speak not just from
my experience, but from a different level.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Debbie now works full time in the domestic violence space,
helping women just like her. But like so many victims
she encounters, she finds herself haunted by the same age
old question.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Why didn't you leave? And it's a difficult question for
anyone to answer, but people don't leave because abuse is
built on a thread and then interwoven into a relationship.
(19:21):
The longer the relationship, the more threads that are interwoven
in there, the stronger the fabric of abuse, and so.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
It becomes a tremendous challenge to unravel it. I think
it depends on the person, the individual, It depends on
the universe. So what can we as a community as
a world do right I think just be there.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Is it really journeying to talk about it? Not any longer.
On the side, I actually do stand up comedy for fun.
Have used it as therapy now and it's actually been great.
I actually did a whole bit on I was married
to a real narcissist. Not the kind of narcissist that
(20:13):
is all to sexyfulm to sexy for myself to No,
not that kind of way, like when Hurricane Sandy was
going to hit our area. Damn, that's all I need
a hurricane, Or when I had cancer. I don't know
how I'm going to survive this. I thought chema was toxic,
(20:36):
tri suffocating, narcissism. It's your truth.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
You can say whatever you want about it and laughter
there's healing, and if you can feel that pain, then
you can find something to laugh about because you're now
on that other side.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
It's not as dark as you know. It got worse
and I stayed there. I can't laugh about it, but
you can talk about your own experience and you feel
the horrible mess and pain. You're out of it now
you can look back at it. It's definitely a way
of healing, and it also makes it a lot easier
to discuss the ugly and the fact that I'm able
(21:16):
to just say it, not scripted, just to have a
conversation and talk about it. It takes these barriers away.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I love that Debbie has figured out how to laugh
about some of those dark moments. Standing on stage and
poking fun at her abuser is not only very brave,
but it's also an amazing way to take back control
of her story. It's a philosophy that's at the heart
of the girlfriends. I really do believe that women use
(21:48):
laughter and gossip to take control of their narratives and
support and protect each other. It's a way of saying,
I'm here, nothing's going to shock me. In fact, I'll
find a way to make you smile in the face
of it, even if you don't know how to write now.
As Cindy said, sometimes the best thing you can do
for a friend going through a hard thing is to simply,
(22:10):
through actions and words, remind them that you'll always be
there if they need you. But every case is different,
So if you suspect someone you love is experiencing domestic abuse,
do reach out to an expert for advice. There'll be
local resources in your area or please feel free to
contact our charity partner no More.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
They offer global support.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
To anyone who is worried about domestic abuse or sexual
violence in their own or loved one's lives. Will pop
a link in the description Until next time, As always,
hold your Girlfriend's Tight to. The Girlfriend's Guide is produced
(23:02):
by Novel for iHeartRadio. For more from Novel, visit novel
dot Audio. This episode is produced and hosted by me
Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr and we've
had some fantastic additional production by Lee Meyer, the Ona
Hamid and Zaianna Yusuf. Max O'Brien is our executive producer.
(23:24):
Production management from Shrie Houston and Charlotte Wolfe. Sound design,
mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music
supervision by me Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music
composed and performed by Louisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa
Gerstein and you guessed It Nicholas Alexander. The series artwork
(23:46):
was designed by Christina Limcol. Story development by me Anna Sinfield.
Willard Foxton is creative director and our executive producers at
iHeart are Katrina Norvell and Nicki Etoor. Special thanks to
Alie Cantor, Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts,
as well as Carl Frankel and the whole team at
(24:07):
w m E.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I God, I Go,
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