April 7, 2025 • 49 mins
When Lu Ann Cooper was just fifteen years old, she was told to drop out of school and marry her first cousin. She would be his fourth wife.
Lu Ann grew up inside the so-called Kingston Clan, a religious sect where, Lu Ann claims, every man is expected to have many wives, and every woman is expected to have many children. All with the aim of building up the Kingdom of God.
But one day, Lu Ann couldn't take it anymore. She decided she had to escape…
The foundation Lu Ann runs to support other people who have fled polygamy is Hope After Polygamy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey listener. In this episode, we have got a long
list of traumatic subjects coming up. There's child abuse, physical abuse,
sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, domestic abuse, and suicide
in many ways. Obviously it's a really heavy listen, but
there's also the story of how one woman broke away
(00:22):
from all of that and helped other women do the same,
and dare I say it, at points it's even funny.
But if it's too much for you, skip on, sister.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We were taught that we were the elite, that our
group was the only ones going to heaven. Before I
went to kindergarten at five years old, I was taught
how to answer questions like who is your dad? And
told what lies to tell to protect our religion and
our family. We didn't want anybody to go to jail
(00:58):
because of anything that we had said. I just thought,
if I'm going to heaven, why is everybody else so
much happier than I am? Why couldn't I be born
in a family that was happy.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Luanne Cooper, like all of us, didn't get to choose
what life she was born into. It's a lottery, a
roll of the dice, and for a while, at least
there's not much you can do but live through it.
But eventually, as you grow older, if you're lucky enough,
you get to make one of two choices, either to conform,
(01:30):
to feel exactly the amount of space that you're designated,
or to opt out, to just say I can't do this,
this isn't me and it never will be. I had
to make that kind of decision when I was in
my teens. I was struggling with my sexuality and how
people treated me because of it. Eventually, I felt all
(01:53):
I could do was move out of my small village
and give up the Christianity that I once held dear
and I moved Brighton, which is the UK's gayest city.
That transition was affirming, but it was also one of
the hardest things I've ever done in my life. Walking
away from everything, you know, especially religion, which is meant
(02:13):
to be the underpinning of well just about everything, is
really disorientating.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Now.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Luanne Cooper's story is an extreme version of that. She
grew up in one of the strangest religious environments that
I have ever heard of, for her life was already
planned out when she was just a young girl.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
When I was fifteen, I was told to drop out
of school, and then I was approached to be married
to my cousin slash nephew as his fourth wife. I
knew that it was going to happen with or without
my concern.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
All this because Luanne grew up inside the infamous so
called Kingston Clan, where Luanne claims every man is expected
to have many wives and every woman is expected to
have many children, all with the aim of building up
the Kingdom of God.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
That's where spiritual abuse happens. You need to do this
scene that the world sees as bad, but God will
see it as good because you're protecting the Kingdom of God.
And so when somebody tells me to do something, I
think what I have to to survive.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
During her life inside the group, Luanne felt manipulated into
some absurd, emotional and religious contortions of the mind, until
one day she just couldn't take it anymore and decided
to do something about it for herself and others like her.
I'm Anna Sinfield and from the teams at Novel and
(03:52):
iHeart Podcasts, this is the Girlfriend's Spotlight, where we tell
stories of women women today. Luan escapes the order before
(04:22):
we dive into Luanne's story, I want to set the
scene and give you a little bit of a primer
on the Kingston Group, which is also known as The Order.
It was founded by a man called Elden Kingston back
in nineteen thirty five, which was during the Great Depression.
Many of its original members had been part of the
mainstream Mormon Church. By that point, polygamy, the practice of
(04:45):
men marrying multiple wives, had already been banned by the Mormons,
but Elden Kingston believed in polygamy. He believed it was
the only way to build the Kingdom of God, basically
the only way to get to Heaven. So on the
outskir Salt Lake City, he started his own group, the Order,
along with another man, LUN's grandfather. Lun and other former
(05:08):
members also say that the Order's idea of creating the
Kingdom of God includes marrying only within the family to
keep the bloodline pure. Now, the Order refutes this and
says it doesn't have any preference for any particular family
or bloodline, but because a lot of the practices performed
inside the group are frowned upon in the outside world,
(05:31):
the community is very secretive. According to Lun, over time,
it's developed a set of let's just say, unique teachings.
To me, it sounds sort of like you're mixing religion
and capitalism.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
We were taught that if we found a penny on
the sidewalk, we turn that into the Order. All of
our incomings and our outgoings are in the name of God,
meaning we turn it into the Order. As a kid,
it was in the name of God that we would
go to work at his businesses, and that the Kingdom
of God was measured off of how much money I
(06:10):
was making the business that I worked at. I feel
like it's speculation on how much I feel like they make,
but they do have a few businesses that profit a
million a month.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
To be clear, this is Luan's assumption. We haven't been
able to check it against any financial records, but from
what Luan says and other former members, it sounds like
the Order are very powerful in Utah.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I feel like they are the Kingstons have. I would
be willing to guess about two hundred businesses. They have
standard restaurants, supply company, they have a department store, a
property management company, pawn shops, they have a grocery store.
I mean they're just spread throughout the Salt Lake Valley.
(06:56):
They have an empire here in Utah.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Wow, two hundred businesses and how many people.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
They have, possibly four thousand members. That's at their disposal
to build up the Kingdom of God. At church as
a kid, I remember attending meetings where the speaker would
suggest that eventually the Order will grow to be big
enough to take over Utah and then eventually take over
(07:25):
the world. And that's why women need to have children
every year. That's why we need to make sure our
kids don't leave the Order.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I'm interested to go back to this idea of you
being at school and having to lead this sort of
double life. What were the things that you were saying
to the other kids when you're having to sort of
talk about who your dad was and you were making
up things and trying to cover it all up.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, honestly, we were told what lies to say. So
this is who you're supposed to say your dad is,
and this is what you're supposed to say about this
or that. Eventually, you know, second and third grade, I
didn't have very many friends at school because I wasn't
allowed to play with them outside of school.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, you must have felt like a real outsider.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I definitely did.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah. I guess that's the goal, right to keep you
guys in your own bubble and make sure you don't
get any ideas of what other life could be.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, that was the goal.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
You said you were told as a child that you
can't tell anyone who your dad was. I mean, what
was your actual relationship with him and who was he?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So I didn't know that I was supposed to have
a dad until I was six years.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Old, like you didn't know one existed.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Growing up, Most of the kids I'd played with, which
was my cousins, didn't have a dad. It wasn't until
I was six years old, after I had been to
school for a couple of years, that I realized, oh,
I'm supposed to have a dad, And so I would
look around at church to see who my dad was.
And after a couple of weeks agoing to church, I
(09:03):
could not figure out who my dad was, and so
I asked my mom and she just started crying and
she said, you can't tell anybody who your dad is.
I could feel with fear in her voice. I just
said okay, and she said, your dad is brother Ortel,
and I was immediately disappointed because brother Ortel was the
(09:27):
leader and he was busy. I've already been taught to
fear him, and I knew I was never ever going
to have a relationship with him.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Could you tell me a bit more about your family
generally that you did have access to, Like, what was
the setup. Obviously you had your mom, you said, siblings.
How many of you were there?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, so I have. I had my mom and my
mom has eight kids. I was the youngest of the eight.
We lived with my grandpa and my aunt. My mom
and my aunt were married to the same guy, and
I remember my dad visiting my house two times in
(10:09):
the seven years of my life that he was alive.
Once he visited my mom, once he visited my aunt.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And so I guess that leads me onto wondering what
your role was within the family, what it was like
to be a young girl growing up in that environment.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because I was the youngest and I was a girl,
there was a lot of abuse. I remember being sexually
abused by a close family member in my home for
as long as I could remember, until I was about
twelve years old, when somebody finally put a stop to it.
My dad taught our family his family, that our kids
(10:49):
should obey the second you asked them to do something.
His strategy was, you hold the child by their hair
at the top of their head, and you slap them
in the face until they stop crying. And so you learn,
you learn to stop crying so that they will stop
hitting you. And looking back, it just taught me fear,
(11:12):
and so when somebody tells me to do something, I think, well,
I have to to survive. And then it evolves into
what they teach in church is the law of one
above another. That is their main gospel principle, which is
not supported by any scripture, by the way, but their
(11:36):
law of one above another teaches that you do what
the person over you tells you to do, whether it's
your boss at work, or your husband or one of
the leaders, and if it's wrong, the person that told
you will be eternally held accountable.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
The way this works within the group, according to accounts
of various former members, is that closer a man is
related to the leader, the more powerful they are. Each
one of them are strangely numbered, and so the leader
is number one, the second in command is number two,
and so on and on the order deny this. They
(12:15):
say that being a quote unquote numbered man does not
give the individual additional authority or preference over the affairs
of any other person. And where do women fit in
this hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
There's no room in the hierarchy for women.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So it really, I mean, it's really religion as an
act of control.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It is. And if you don't do what you're told,
you're eternally held accountable. But if you do, the person
that told you is held eternally accountable. So it doesn't
matter what the law is here on earth. It matters
what is going to happen to you in heaven.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
But where did God come in that, because presumably you
shouldn't be forced to do bad things just because somebody
above you has said it.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Well, yes, and so that's where spiritual abuse happens. Is.
We need to protect the kingdom of God, and in
order to do that, you need to do this thing
that the world sees as bad, but God will see
it as good because in the end you're protecting the
kingdom of God. And that's the manipulation tactic that they use.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I mean, I feel like I get a sense now
of just how difficult it is to even exist within
the order. Would you be able to take me back
to the time when you first heard that you were
going to be married. What was that like?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Well, everybody around me was getting married, and that was
scary because I knew eventually it was going to come
around to me. So I tried to lay low. I
stayed in school.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Luan was still just for at this point.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I was one of the few cousins that I had,
or half sisters that I had that actually went to
ninth grade. And it was coming my way. And so
when my mom finally said so and so is asking
to meet with you, I just said, ah, here it is,
here you go.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
The so and so in question was Luan's first cousin, Jeremy.
She was to become his fourth wife. Luanne knew that
the life she had been primed for all her childhood
had just become inevitable. After the break, Luanne gets married,
but soon she starts to doubt everything she had been
(14:40):
raised to believe. Glad you have, glad you, glad you,
I've glad you. At fifteen, Alma was told to drop
(15:01):
out of high school and dedicate herself to what her
family saw as her duty marriage. The person she was
supposed to marry was Jeremy, her first cousin, who already
had three wives. Her mum arranged a meeting for her,
Luanne and Jeremy to discuss the marriage.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I met with them, and I met with the Leader
of the Order, and I didn't really respond. I just
let them do all the talking, which I'm assuming led
them to believe that they needed to keep talking until
I said something because I had meeting after meeting, after
meeting with the leader and my future husband.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Well, presumably they weren't seeking your consent in this.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
No, they definitely weren't.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I should mention here that statements from the Order say
that they believe marriage is a personal choice that should
not be coerced. What lu Anne describes here is her
own recollection of her expsvariants. What were they talking about.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Following the Lord's plan for me and building up the
Kingdom of God and fitting in and being a part
of my divine birthright.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And building up the Kingdom of God? That means having babies.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yes, having babies that can eventually start working in the
order businesses.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, but you were a baby yourself. You're only fifteen. Yeah,
How did you feel about the prospect of all of
what they were talking about.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I felt like I was still a kid.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah you were.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, I felt like I was still a kid. I
was too young. At one point, I said, maybe he
is the person I'm supposed to marry, but I don't
feel like I'm ready yet. And so that just led
to more meetings, which I realized, this is a constant
thing that I'm only going to get out of if
I get married. And so I was a lesser of
(17:00):
the two evils. I said, Okay, I'm ready, and I
was married three days later. Meanwhile, while I'm in these meetings,
my mom is at home sewing a dress. My sister
takes me to the store to pick out flowers, and
I'm just on an autopilot. I knew I did not
have to say anything. I knew that was going to
(17:22):
happen with or without my concent And.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
What about your at this point would be husband. Did
he seem remotely interested in you? You know? Could this
have been a love story? You know? Who was he?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
He kept saying, I never thought that I would be
to the point where I would get four wives, which
made me feel like a number to him, And that
was probably the most endearing thing he ever said to
me or about me endaring.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So it wasn't a good start. And how much older
was he than you?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
He was twenty three and I was fifteen. So then
I thought, well, it could be worse. My cousins are
marrying men who are forty. He's only twenty three. My
sisters married our half brothers. He's a cousin, And so
it felt like maybe this was the best shot I had.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Oh, lu Anne, I'm sorry. There is nothing good you
can say about that. So not you know, I can
see how you were reaching for. You know, oh, maybe
this is better the lesser of evils, but you know
that would have been illegal.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, and it was illegal, and so it was a
spiritual marriage. I was told who I could invite and
who I couldn't invite. I wasn't allowed to talk about
it on the phone because they were afraid the government
taps our phones. And I didn't even have to plan
the wedding because it was being planned for me all
around me.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Was fifteen, the youngest that they'd married girls.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
No, I had been to a wedding where a twelve
year old had married a thirty year old man.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Jesus and why would people do that to the daughters
that young.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Well, they're building up the Kingdom of God, right, But
it was normal to have a twelve year old get married.
It was normal at the age of twelve to fifteen
that you would get married as a girl. It was
normal to marry somebody who was ten or twenty or
more years older than you. And it felt creepy to me.
(19:26):
But I would watch everybody around me and think they're
okay with this, like this is normal. So I felt
like I was the odd one out because I really
wasn't okay with it, but it was the law of
one above another. I had to go with it.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
The Order disputes this. They say on their website that
quote marriages should be conducted within the legal age of
consent in Utah. That legal age of marriage is currently sixteen,
raised from fifteen in twenty nineteen. Since twenty nineteen, the
law also says that sixteen and seventeen year olds cannot
marry anyone more than seven years older than them. And
(20:09):
why do you think that you had become more aware
in that sense to see it from almost an outsider's
eyes and go, this doesn't feel.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Right Because I was alone a lot. I watched a
lot of TV. I went to school. I did have friends.
I did hang out with them eventually after school. I
just made sure nobody was home to catch me. I
gave myself as many outside influences as I could as
a kid, because I honestly felt like they're happier than
(20:39):
I am because they're not in the order. So I
don't know. Maybe in the back of my head, I
just wanted to leave. I wanted to be a member
of a different family growing up.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, it sounds like those kernels of thought had been
bubbling for a while. Could you tell me what early
married life was like.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
It was awkward and weird, and we went on our
honeymoon the day of our wedding. It was awkward to
be alone with him. There wasn't a lot of conversation
on our wedding night. He had gotten a very nice hotel.
I didn't tell him though, on our wedding night because
I knew it was my duty. This is why I'm
(21:21):
marrying him, and so I just went into autopilot. Yeah,
what matters is that you're obeying the one above you.
You're doing what you're told, and you're building up the
Kingdom of God.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
But it doesn't sound like he was particularly into this
marriage either.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, he wasn't. So I stayed living at home with
my mom and he would visit me every four days,
and on the nights that I couldn't get away from work,
he would come over and my mom or my aunt
would make him dinner that made him uncomfortable soul. Then
he stopped coming over on the nights that I worked,
and eventually only started coming over once a week, so
(22:03):
that worked out. But he told me I wasn't a
very good wife, that I didn't have dinner prepared for
him because I was at work. I feel like his
end goal was to just break me and make me
feel less than Those were the only conversations he would
have with me, and I was taught that if I
(22:23):
wasn't happy, then it was my own fault, and so
I had to figure out how to be happy in
spite of what kind of person I was to my husband,
and it just put me into a spiral of depression.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Luanne was fifteen years old and expected to begin married
life with this twenty three year old man who didn't
seem to care about her at all other than to
make sure he could take advantage of his conjugal rights,
and she was just one of four wives. They were
a big but by the sounds of it, not very
happy family.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
We had family dinners on Sundays, and when I was
first married, it was so awkward to go, so sometimes
I didn't go and I would get in trouble for that.
When I say I got in trouble, he just yelled
at me. He never physically harmed me, but he yelled
at me really well. But yeah, we would have family dinners,
(23:20):
family outings, and if there was church, then he wanted
us all to sit together. If there was a church dance,
then he wanted us all to sit together. Sometimes I
did and sometimes I didn't. I was definitely the black
sheep in the family. But I did figure out that
if I was friends with the other wives, with my
(23:41):
sister wives, then these get togethers were tolerable.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And did you get along kind of genuinely or was
that you were kind of playing happy families?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
At first, it was just playing happy family and just
being kind just to survive. But I eventually did develop
relationships with my sister wives, and I started to enjoy
being around them. They started to open up to me
more and sharing stories that you do not share with
your sister wife.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That must have been important to have that support network.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I eventually realized how unhappy all of his wives are.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Of course, we haven't spoken to Jeremy's other wives who
are still within the order, so we can't say for
sure how they felt about their marriages. But during the
early years of Luanne's marriage, everyone around her seemed focused
on making sure she became pregnant.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
When I was sixteen, I was moved into my own
apartment and living by myself and getting more pressure to
get pregnant. And I eventually did get pregnant. And when
I told him I just took a pregnancy test and
it said I'm pregnant, he said, well, we'll see, and
that was his response, and then he leaves. And a
(25:00):
month later I reminded him, I'm still pregnant because I
was trying so hard to be a good wife.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And you'd done the thing, the thing that you were
meant to do.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, And I just wanted him to like me. I
just wanted to feel like he liked me. I really
really wanted to be loved, so I would remind him
I'm still pregnant, and he was like, well, is it
even mine? And he would say stuff like that to me,
and I said, why would you ask me that? And
he's like, well, I don't know where you'd been. I
didn't see a doctor during my first pregnancy at all.
(25:33):
There was no doctor's appointments, no checking to see if
I was healthy or if the baby was healthy. And
then when I was in labor, my mom came to
stay with me for the day. They called one of
the leaders of the order to come help deliver my
baby because they had more experience, and the whole time
(25:54):
that they were there, they kept saying, can you make
this happen faster? Or how can we speed this along.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Luanne was freshly eighteen and terrified while this impatient man
essentially man, explained her labor to her. Luanne says that
there were no medical professionals there and that it was
her husband who did her stitches afterwards, Fortunately, both Luanne
and her daughter were okay. Luanne's second pregnancy, which was
(26:23):
around a year later, was even tougher. She says that
for most of her second labor she was left alone, panicked,
in and out of consciousness, but luckily Luanne's second daughter
was born healthily as well. These two girls became something
for Luanne to hold onto.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
When I held my first baby for the first time,
I realized what it was to love an the human being,
more than myself. I loved my girls. I still love
my girls.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Even after Luanne had the kids. Jeremy wanted so badly,
she says, she was left to fa for herself and
their two daughters, basically all on her own.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
He didn't support me at all. He kept a room
in the apartment that I was in and kept the
door locked and had his storage in there. But I
paid for the rent and the utilities. I paid for
my own groceries. When I had kids, I paid for everything,
all of their needs. And then one time he came
(27:24):
home and he said, do you have food storage? And
I said not really, And he said, well, I have
a bucket of beans in my closet here in my apartment.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Just to be absolutely clear, what lu Anne is suggesting
here is that Jeremy kept a lot room that only
he had access to in Luanne's apartment, which lu Anne
was paying for, and the room was full of from
what I can gather beans.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
He said, I'll sell it to you for five dollars,
and I said, okay. I didn't feel like I had
an option to tell him no, because you don't tell
the one above, you know, And so I just let
him pull the bucket of beans out and stick it
in my pantry and then charge me five dollars.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
What's the point of the husband's then, what are they bringing?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Well, the wives are supposed to have a baby every year,
so the husband brings home his sperm every week.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Oh, thank you so much, gratefully received. I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Well it's better when they leave.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, I can't get over how utterly bizarre and
also how cruel that beans incident sounds.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
As Luanne tells it, it's like Jeremy was hopped up
on the power that the orders hierarchy provided him with.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Shortly after I got married, I realized I am going
to be miserable for the rest of my life. And
it kind of just hit me like a brick, like, oh,
this is my life. I'm going to be that did
to have babies and support myself and support my family
and try to please my husband, try to please my boss.
(29:09):
And that was the beginning of my depression.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
So at what point did you start thinking about actually
leaving the order.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, my cousin, who had left a year previously, sent
LDS missionaries to my house to try to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
LDS stands for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints. It's the mainstream Mormon church.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
They proceeded to tell me, well, we know about your group,
we know about the pulling this relationship you're in. And
then my mind went to, oh, somebody is sharing our secrets.
I need to figure out who and how they're finding
out so that I can report back to the leader.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Wow, so you're still even though you're well you definitely
didn't like this life, you're still wanting to report that back.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Well, you want to be accepted, You want to be loved.
You know, any time you can get a second of belonging,
you desire that so much.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I ended up having a long conversation with this missionary.
I agreed to meet with them at a nearby church
where nobody would see me, and they taught me about
the atonement of Christ.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
For those of you who aren't across the vocabulary, the
atonement of Christ refers to the sacrifice that Jesus Christ
made to atone for the sins of humanity. In Mormon faith,
it means all people, regardless of religious or moral standing,
are saved.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
When they taught me about the atonement, it was the
first time I ever felt his love, and it was
the first time I ever felt love for myself, and
I wanted to keep feeling that. And I thought, how
(31:03):
do I keep feeling this in the situation that I'm in?
And then my cousin appeared and she said, you know
you can leave, right and I thought I can. The
(31:24):
thought of leaving the Order never occurred to me. It
occurred to me that I could get out of the
Order by ending my life, but it never occurred to
me that I could get out of the Order by
leaving the Order. The wheels started turning for me, and
she said, well, if you did leave, when would you
do it. This was a Wednesday afternoon when we had
(31:45):
this conversation, and I said Friday.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
After the break, Luanne hatches a secret plan to get
herself and her kids away from the Order. Once Luan
(32:23):
spoke the idea of leaving the Order into existence there
in that church, she knew she couldn't delay. She wanted
to be gone in less than three days.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It has to be Friday. My cousin would come to
my house at night. She'd park a few blocks away
and walk to my house after dark and help me pack.
We pack all night long. I was just being very
secretive those two days, packing as much as I could.
And then Friday, I decided that I couldn't take my
(32:56):
kids to the babysitter and I couldn't go to work
because it wasn't safe to be separated from my girls.
I didn't want to risk being caught leaving because I
didn't know what would happen to me if I was.
I had heard stories of girls being kept in a
closet for a week until they agreed not to try
(33:17):
to leave again. I had seen girls that supposedly tried
to leave and then they disappear for a month, and
they come back more loyal and more obedient than they
were before. So I didn't show up to work on Friday.
My girls didn't show up to the babysitter. On Friday.
I went to another cousin's house I had left fifteen
years prior to hang out at her house, and me
(33:42):
and my cousin went to my apartment at noon with
my girls in the car to see if anybody had
tried to check up on me. And my sister came
running out and she tried to open the back seat
where my girls were, but it was lot and my
cousin jumped in the car and she started driving, and
my sister grabbed the door of the driver's side and
(34:05):
started running with the car, and my cousin said what
do I do? And I said drive faster, and my
sister let go of the door and started chasing us
down the road, saying, you give me those girls. You
do not deserve to have those girls.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Luanne's escape was so abrupt that she hadn't even been
able to grab all the boxes she'd packed. So the
next day she returned to her old house. This time,
volunteers from the LDS church came with her, thirty of them,
but Luanne's family were there too. She says they tried
to stop her from leaving. Lu Anne stood strong. She
(34:42):
had her entourage of church volunteers, and one of them
called the police.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
When the police officer came and said we have to go,
my family all wanted to hug me goodbye. I felt
like this is the last time I'm going to see them,
and so I hugged everybody by and I walked away.
And I was walking away from my family towards that
group of strangers, and I knew that I was going
(35:08):
to be okay, but I had to figure out what
I was going to do next.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Luanne needed to build a whole new life for herself.
Early on, she managed to find an apartment of her own.
She also got her first job on the outside, where
she was selling family portraits to pass us by in
a parking lot of a grocery store. Now that's a
nightmare job for most people. I definitely can't imagine anything worse,
but especially for someone who's been taught to fear and
(35:37):
mistrust the outside world for the last twenty years. Luanne
even ended up putting herself through school, finishing her last
three years of high school in just one year. Obviously,
it sounds like you were kind of really making a
life for yourself out there. But how did it feel
to be away from the family and the order.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
It was really hard to leave my family. My mom
and my sister were my best friends, and I knew
that by choosing to leave the Order, I was choosing
to lose that relationship. I would call my mom. She
would say things to me like, we can't talk to
you anymore. One of my close family members said, you're
not my sister anymore. You left the Order. You chose
(36:21):
to leave the Order, so you're not a part of
this family anymore. It was hard.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Are you still not in touch with any of them? No?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I will call my mom every four ish years, and
when I get off the phone, I remember why I
don't call her, and why is that she is not
proud of me or the things that I have done
to hurt the Order.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
It's funny because obviously, from an outside perspective, you've done
so many heroic things and put yourself out on a limb,
and everyone should be proud of you for what you've done.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah. So, after I left, I did not want to
hurt anybody. I wanted to make a life for myself.
I wanted to focus on surviving. But I kept hearing
stories of the abuse that was still going on in
the group, and I realized I can do something. So
(37:20):
I went to the Attorney General's office and told them
I am a witness to an underage marriage. I was
married to my first cousin. I have two little girls
with this individual. I am a witness of this. This
is still happening in there today. And it took a
couple tries before they took my case. It felt like
(37:42):
they were afraid of the Kingstons, but I don't know
why they would be. But nobody wanted to touch my
case until they finally did, and they did DNA samples
and they did pick him up, and he did go
to jail for incest. The sentence was that he would
(38:03):
go to jail for up to a year and I
think he got out after nine months.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Wow. And that was for incest. Was he never charged
with having sex with a minor, so.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
They were able to go after him for one count
of incest, but statutory rape all of the other stuff,
the statute limitations had run out on that.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And how did you feel putting him away?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I was scared, you know, repercussions for my family. I
didn't receive any repercussions, so that was good. But it
felt rewarding in a sense that somebody was caught for
doing something and maybe it was scared them enough to
stop doing what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Luanne has gone beyond just holding Jeremy accountable for their marriage.
Sort of inadvertently, she found herself as the go to
person for other girls trying to get away from the order.
It sounds like she's become almost a kind of folk
hero for those who question their life in the group.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
I have had girls dropped off at my house at night.
We stay up all night talking and then they decide
to go back. I have had girls call me and say,
how do you raise your kids outside of the order
and have them be good? I have had girls dropped
off of my house and I have helped them call
(39:29):
a police report in so that they don't have to
go back. Throughout the years, anybody who's ever reached out
for help getting out, I have been able to help them.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
And how many people do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I left in two thousand, maybe between ten and twenty.
Maybe you know. I don't advertise, but I'm helping people leave.
But if anybody reaches out, then.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
We're advertising now, I guess. So roll up, roll up,
get into the house.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Luanne realized that she couldn't keep sheltering runaway girls who
shot to her house without notice forever. It just wasn't sustainable,
so she came up with a new idea.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I have started a nonprofit with four other women who
also left polygamy, and we created an organization that offers
educational scholarships to people that have left polygamy. Because the
average person that leaves polygamy has an eighth grade education,
so we felt like the biggest help we could give
(40:35):
was to help them and encourage them to go to
school and get an education and learn for themselves what
they wanted in life.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
That's amazing, and how's that going?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Well? We opened our doors in twenty eighteen. We are
established to the point where we have been able to
give out over sixty scholarships. We just want to be
a light of hope to those that have left polygamy
and show them that, look, you can leave a bad
situation and make a better life for yourself.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Absolutely, so I think we can move on to what
I'm hoping is a happier story, which is your love story.
You met your husband, Tell me about meeting him and
what that was like.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
So I was convinced to meet a friend at a
dance club, and so when I showed up, she had
sent my husband out to the parking lot to pay
for my parking and for my entrance fee, and he
followed me around the dance club all night long, and
I just thought, oh boy, you are annoying.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Over time, Luanne warmed to this very persistent guy. His
name is Dustin, though she's always just called him Cooper
by his surname. He seemed like a good person, like
he genuinely cared for her, and lu Anne fell in
love with him.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
When we were talking about getting married, I've realized that
I could not handle the anticipation of being married again,
and I told him, I said, I don't think I'm
going to marry you if we don't do it today.
He went to go get a ring, and I went
to go get a dress for me and my girls,
and we met back up that evening and we got
married that night. It was exactly the way I wanted
(42:16):
it to go, because I could not handle the anticipation
of being married again.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Well, I can imagine that would have been a very
hard thing to kind of do again. I can see
why you were anxious about it. The thought of having
to wear a dress again, and the last time you
wore one was then, and all of these things would
be kind of triggering memories.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Well, it was the fact that I was in control
at home, and that I was worried that he would
be in control afterwards, you know, but there would be
another male figure in my life that I would have
to obey or include. I just really love my freedom.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
It sounds like, you know, thank God, you've found yourself
a really nice guy.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, I definitely did.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
It makes me think about the women who are still
living within the Kingston clan. What do you think about
them now that you're on the outside.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I hope that some of them have found some happiness.
I know that a big survival trait is going numb
so that things can happen around you that you have
no control over. But I don't know how possible it is,
but I do hope that there's some happiness in there.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Finally, I'm just thinking for the listener and for myself.
Your story. It's so unusual and it's so unique. What
do you think is a sort of universal thing about
the experience. What is something we can all learn from?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I would say, listen to your heart, don't let yourself
stop dreaming. The decision we had to make leaving the
order was do I want my freedom or do I
want my family? And some people choose their family or
their freedom. That's some more important to them. Listen to
your heart. If there is something inside of you telling
(44:16):
you that there's something better, then there is something better.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Thank you so much, Luanne, Well, thank you. While many
(44:47):
people have alleged abuse at the hands of the Order,
and some Order members have been convicted of abuse in
the past, the Order states on its website that it
and I quote has been speaking out publicly again it's
fraud and abuse for decades. We reaffirm to our members
that this type of behavior goes completely against our beliefs
(45:08):
and principles, and we cannot support anyone found to be
engaged in this type of behavior. If you want to
keep up with Luan's amazing work, the organization that she runs,
which provides women who left polygamy with scholarships, is called
Hope After Polygamy. We've put a link in the show
notes if you want to learn more about them or
support their work. Next time, on The Girlfriend's Spotlight, Nelly
(45:36):
goes undercover.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
In the first pair ofgaph she rates could I pass
a week in the insane ward a Blackwell's Island? I
said I could, and I would and I did.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Hey you've reached the girlfriend's hotline. You can leave your
mini story after the tone right catulator Bye.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
The classic moment with some of my closest friends is
that when we're visiting each other, traveling together, or when
we live together at university, we would pick one of
our beds as the morning coffee slash morning tea drinking
area and.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Just talk shit about anything.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
We're watch the videos and just spend time with each
other before getting our day started. And it's moments like
that we're having girlfriends is just the best.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
If you have your own story like the one you
just heard, and you'd like the whole girlfriend's going to
hear it, then please send it to us. You can
record it as a voice memo under ninety seconds please
and email it straight to the girlfriends at novel dot Audio.
Please don't include your name, we're keeping things a little anon.
(46:55):
We want stories like say that one time you've faked
an emergency on an awful date and your bestie bailed
you out with a phone call we love her. Or
that time when all of your girls showed up on
your doorstep with five pizzas, two tups of ice cream,
and three bottles of saven your blanc because the man
of your dreams just dumped you. I want stories that
(47:17):
are meaningful or silly. I want big, I want small.
I'm desperate to hear them, so send them over. This season,
we're supporting the charity Womankind Worldwide. They do amazing work
(47:39):
to help women's rights organizations and movements to strengthen and grow.
If you'd like to find out more or donate to
help them secure equal rights for women and girls across
the globe, you can go to Womankind dot org dot UK.
The Girlfriend's Spotlight is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts.
(48:00):
For more from Novel, visit novel dot audio. The show
is hosted by me Anna Sinfield. This episode was written
and produced by Jake O'taivich. Our researcher is Zaiana Yusuf.
The editor is Hannah Marshall, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan
r Executive producers. Production management from Joe Savage, Sarie Houston
(48:23):
and Charlotte Wolfe. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas
Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Jakotivich, Nicholas Alexander
and Danasinfield. Original music composed by Louisa Gerstein and Jemma Freeman.
The series artwork was designed by Christina Limpool. Willard Foxton
(48:44):
is creative director of Development and Special thanks to Katrina Norville,
Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts, as well
as Carl Frankel and the whole team at w M.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Rouchin Arbats Capture Chauchin Lugin touching
Speaker 4 (49:15):
H
Hey listener. In this episode, we have got a long
list of traumatic subjects coming up. There's child abuse, physical abuse,
sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, domestic abuse, and suicide
in many ways. Obviously it's a really heavy listen, but
there's also the story of how one woman broke away
(00:22):
from all of that and helped other women do the same,
and dare I say it, at points it's even funny.
But if it's too much for you, skip on, sister.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We were taught that we were the elite, that our
group was the only ones going to heaven. Before I
went to kindergarten at five years old, I was taught
how to answer questions like who is your dad? And
told what lies to tell to protect our religion and
our family. We didn't want anybody to go to jail
(00:58):
because of anything that we had said. I just thought,
if I'm going to heaven, why is everybody else so
much happier than I am? Why couldn't I be born
in a family that was happy.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Luanne Cooper, like all of us, didn't get to choose
what life she was born into. It's a lottery, a
roll of the dice, and for a while, at least
there's not much you can do but live through it.
But eventually, as you grow older, if you're lucky enough,
you get to make one of two choices, either to conform,
(01:30):
to feel exactly the amount of space that you're designated,
or to opt out, to just say I can't do this,
this isn't me and it never will be. I had
to make that kind of decision when I was in
my teens. I was struggling with my sexuality and how
people treated me because of it. Eventually, I felt all
(01:53):
I could do was move out of my small village
and give up the Christianity that I once held dear
and I moved Brighton, which is the UK's gayest city.
That transition was affirming, but it was also one of
the hardest things I've ever done in my life. Walking
away from everything, you know, especially religion, which is meant
(02:13):
to be the underpinning of well just about everything, is
really disorientating.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Now.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Luanne Cooper's story is an extreme version of that. She
grew up in one of the strangest religious environments that
I have ever heard of, for her life was already
planned out when she was just a young girl.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
When I was fifteen, I was told to drop out
of school, and then I was approached to be married
to my cousin slash nephew as his fourth wife. I
knew that it was going to happen with or without
my concern.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
All this because Luanne grew up inside the infamous so
called Kingston Clan, where Luanne claims every man is expected
to have many wives and every woman is expected to
have many children, all with the aim of building up
the Kingdom of God.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
That's where spiritual abuse happens. You need to do this
scene that the world sees as bad, but God will
see it as good because you're protecting the Kingdom of God.
And so when somebody tells me to do something, I
think what I have to to survive.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
During her life inside the group, Luanne felt manipulated into
some absurd, emotional and religious contortions of the mind, until
one day she just couldn't take it anymore and decided
to do something about it for herself and others like her.
I'm Anna Sinfield and from the teams at Novel and
(03:52):
iHeart Podcasts, this is the Girlfriend's Spotlight, where we tell
stories of women women today. Luan escapes the order before
(04:22):
we dive into Luanne's story, I want to set the
scene and give you a little bit of a primer
on the Kingston Group, which is also known as The Order.
It was founded by a man called Elden Kingston back
in nineteen thirty five, which was during the Great Depression.
Many of its original members had been part of the
mainstream Mormon Church. By that point, polygamy, the practice of
(04:45):
men marrying multiple wives, had already been banned by the Mormons,
but Elden Kingston believed in polygamy. He believed it was
the only way to build the Kingdom of God, basically
the only way to get to Heaven. So on the
outskir Salt Lake City, he started his own group, the Order,
along with another man, LUN's grandfather. Lun and other former
(05:08):
members also say that the Order's idea of creating the
Kingdom of God includes marrying only within the family to
keep the bloodline pure. Now, the Order refutes this and
says it doesn't have any preference for any particular family
or bloodline, but because a lot of the practices performed
inside the group are frowned upon in the outside world,
(05:31):
the community is very secretive. According to Lun, over time,
it's developed a set of let's just say, unique teachings.
To me, it sounds sort of like you're mixing religion
and capitalism.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
We were taught that if we found a penny on
the sidewalk, we turn that into the Order. All of
our incomings and our outgoings are in the name of God,
meaning we turn it into the Order. As a kid,
it was in the name of God that we would
go to work at his businesses, and that the Kingdom
of God was measured off of how much money I
(06:10):
was making the business that I worked at. I feel
like it's speculation on how much I feel like they make,
but they do have a few businesses that profit a
million a month.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
To be clear, this is Luan's assumption. We haven't been
able to check it against any financial records, but from
what Luan says and other former members, it sounds like
the Order are very powerful in Utah.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I feel like they are the Kingstons have. I would
be willing to guess about two hundred businesses. They have
standard restaurants, supply company, they have a department store, a
property management company, pawn shops, they have a grocery store.
I mean they're just spread throughout the Salt Lake Valley.
(06:56):
They have an empire here in Utah.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Wow, two hundred businesses and how many people.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
They have, possibly four thousand members. That's at their disposal
to build up the Kingdom of God. At church as
a kid, I remember attending meetings where the speaker would
suggest that eventually the Order will grow to be big
enough to take over Utah and then eventually take over
(07:25):
the world. And that's why women need to have children
every year. That's why we need to make sure our
kids don't leave the Order.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I'm interested to go back to this idea of you
being at school and having to lead this sort of
double life. What were the things that you were saying
to the other kids when you're having to sort of
talk about who your dad was and you were making
up things and trying to cover it all up.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, honestly, we were told what lies to say. So
this is who you're supposed to say your dad is,
and this is what you're supposed to say about this
or that. Eventually, you know, second and third grade, I
didn't have very many friends at school because I wasn't
allowed to play with them outside of school.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, you must have felt like a real outsider.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I definitely did.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah. I guess that's the goal, right to keep you
guys in your own bubble and make sure you don't
get any ideas of what other life could be.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, that was the goal.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
You said you were told as a child that you
can't tell anyone who your dad was. I mean, what
was your actual relationship with him and who was he?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So I didn't know that I was supposed to have
a dad until I was six years.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Old, like you didn't know one existed.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Growing up, Most of the kids I'd played with, which
was my cousins, didn't have a dad. It wasn't until
I was six years old, after I had been to
school for a couple of years, that I realized, oh,
I'm supposed to have a dad, And so I would
look around at church to see who my dad was.
And after a couple of weeks agoing to church, I
(09:03):
could not figure out who my dad was, and so
I asked my mom and she just started crying and
she said, you can't tell anybody who your dad is.
I could feel with fear in her voice. I just
said okay, and she said, your dad is brother Ortel,
and I was immediately disappointed because brother Ortel was the
(09:27):
leader and he was busy. I've already been taught to
fear him, and I knew I was never ever going
to have a relationship with him.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Could you tell me a bit more about your family
generally that you did have access to, Like, what was
the setup. Obviously you had your mom, you said, siblings.
How many of you were there?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, so I have. I had my mom and my
mom has eight kids. I was the youngest of the eight.
We lived with my grandpa and my aunt. My mom
and my aunt were married to the same guy, and
I remember my dad visiting my house two times in
(10:09):
the seven years of my life that he was alive.
Once he visited my mom, once he visited my aunt.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And so I guess that leads me onto wondering what
your role was within the family, what it was like
to be a young girl growing up in that environment.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because I was the youngest and I was a girl,
there was a lot of abuse. I remember being sexually
abused by a close family member in my home for
as long as I could remember, until I was about
twelve years old, when somebody finally put a stop to it.
My dad taught our family his family, that our kids
(10:49):
should obey the second you asked them to do something.
His strategy was, you hold the child by their hair
at the top of their head, and you slap them
in the face until they stop crying. And so you learn,
you learn to stop crying so that they will stop
hitting you. And looking back, it just taught me fear,
(11:12):
and so when somebody tells me to do something, I think, well,
I have to to survive. And then it evolves into
what they teach in church is the law of one
above another. That is their main gospel principle, which is
not supported by any scripture, by the way, but their
(11:36):
law of one above another teaches that you do what
the person over you tells you to do, whether it's
your boss at work, or your husband or one of
the leaders, and if it's wrong, the person that told
you will be eternally held accountable.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
The way this works within the group, according to accounts
of various former members, is that closer a man is
related to the leader, the more powerful they are. Each
one of them are strangely numbered, and so the leader
is number one, the second in command is number two,
and so on and on the order deny this. They
(12:15):
say that being a quote unquote numbered man does not
give the individual additional authority or preference over the affairs
of any other person. And where do women fit in
this hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
There's no room in the hierarchy for women.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So it really, I mean, it's really religion as an
act of control.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It is. And if you don't do what you're told,
you're eternally held accountable. But if you do, the person
that told you is held eternally accountable. So it doesn't
matter what the law is here on earth. It matters
what is going to happen to you in heaven.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
But where did God come in that, because presumably you
shouldn't be forced to do bad things just because somebody
above you has said it.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Well, yes, and so that's where spiritual abuse happens. Is.
We need to protect the kingdom of God, and in
order to do that, you need to do this thing
that the world sees as bad, but God will see
it as good because in the end you're protecting the
kingdom of God. And that's the manipulation tactic that they use.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I mean, I feel like I get a sense now
of just how difficult it is to even exist within
the order. Would you be able to take me back
to the time when you first heard that you were
going to be married. What was that like?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Well, everybody around me was getting married, and that was
scary because I knew eventually it was going to come
around to me. So I tried to lay low. I
stayed in school.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Luan was still just for at this point.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I was one of the few cousins that I had,
or half sisters that I had that actually went to
ninth grade. And it was coming my way. And so
when my mom finally said so and so is asking
to meet with you, I just said, ah, here it is,
here you go.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
The so and so in question was Luan's first cousin, Jeremy.
She was to become his fourth wife. Luanne knew that
the life she had been primed for all her childhood
had just become inevitable. After the break, Luanne gets married,
but soon she starts to doubt everything she had been
(14:40):
raised to believe. Glad you have, glad you, glad you,
I've glad you. At fifteen, Alma was told to drop
(15:01):
out of high school and dedicate herself to what her
family saw as her duty marriage. The person she was
supposed to marry was Jeremy, her first cousin, who already
had three wives. Her mum arranged a meeting for her,
Luanne and Jeremy to discuss the marriage.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I met with them, and I met with the Leader
of the Order, and I didn't really respond. I just
let them do all the talking, which I'm assuming led
them to believe that they needed to keep talking until
I said something because I had meeting after meeting, after
meeting with the leader and my future husband.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Well, presumably they weren't seeking your consent in this.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
No, they definitely weren't.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I should mention here that statements from the Order say
that they believe marriage is a personal choice that should
not be coerced. What lu Anne describes here is her
own recollection of her expsvariants. What were they talking about.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Following the Lord's plan for me and building up the
Kingdom of God and fitting in and being a part
of my divine birthright.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And building up the Kingdom of God? That means having babies.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yes, having babies that can eventually start working in the
order businesses.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, but you were a baby yourself. You're only fifteen. Yeah,
How did you feel about the prospect of all of
what they were talking about.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I felt like I was still a kid.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah you were.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, I felt like I was still a kid. I
was too young. At one point, I said, maybe he
is the person I'm supposed to marry, but I don't
feel like I'm ready yet. And so that just led
to more meetings, which I realized, this is a constant
thing that I'm only going to get out of if
I get married. And so I was a lesser of
(17:00):
the two evils. I said, Okay, I'm ready, and I
was married three days later. Meanwhile, while I'm in these meetings,
my mom is at home sewing a dress. My sister
takes me to the store to pick out flowers, and
I'm just on an autopilot. I knew I did not
have to say anything. I knew that was going to
(17:22):
happen with or without my concent And.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
What about your at this point would be husband. Did
he seem remotely interested in you? You know? Could this
have been a love story? You know? Who was he?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
He kept saying, I never thought that I would be
to the point where I would get four wives, which
made me feel like a number to him, And that
was probably the most endearing thing he ever said to
me or about me endaring.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So it wasn't a good start. And how much older
was he than you?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
He was twenty three and I was fifteen. So then
I thought, well, it could be worse. My cousins are
marrying men who are forty. He's only twenty three. My
sisters married our half brothers. He's a cousin, And so
it felt like maybe this was the best shot I had.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Oh, lu Anne, I'm sorry. There is nothing good you
can say about that. So not you know, I can
see how you were reaching for. You know, oh, maybe
this is better the lesser of evils, but you know
that would have been illegal.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, and it was illegal, and so it was a
spiritual marriage. I was told who I could invite and
who I couldn't invite. I wasn't allowed to talk about
it on the phone because they were afraid the government
taps our phones. And I didn't even have to plan
the wedding because it was being planned for me all
around me.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Was fifteen, the youngest that they'd married girls.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
No, I had been to a wedding where a twelve
year old had married a thirty year old man.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Jesus and why would people do that to the daughters
that young.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Well, they're building up the Kingdom of God, right, But
it was normal to have a twelve year old get married.
It was normal at the age of twelve to fifteen
that you would get married as a girl. It was
normal to marry somebody who was ten or twenty or
more years older than you. And it felt creepy to me.
(19:26):
But I would watch everybody around me and think they're
okay with this, like this is normal. So I felt
like I was the odd one out because I really
wasn't okay with it, but it was the law of
one above another. I had to go with it.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
The Order disputes this. They say on their website that
quote marriages should be conducted within the legal age of
consent in Utah. That legal age of marriage is currently sixteen,
raised from fifteen in twenty nineteen. Since twenty nineteen, the
law also says that sixteen and seventeen year olds cannot
marry anyone more than seven years older than them. And
(20:09):
why do you think that you had become more aware
in that sense to see it from almost an outsider's
eyes and go, this doesn't feel.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Right Because I was alone a lot. I watched a
lot of TV. I went to school. I did have friends.
I did hang out with them eventually after school. I
just made sure nobody was home to catch me. I
gave myself as many outside influences as I could as
a kid, because I honestly felt like they're happier than
(20:39):
I am because they're not in the order. So I
don't know. Maybe in the back of my head, I
just wanted to leave. I wanted to be a member
of a different family growing up.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, it sounds like those kernels of thought had been
bubbling for a while. Could you tell me what early
married life was like.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
It was awkward and weird, and we went on our
honeymoon the day of our wedding. It was awkward to
be alone with him. There wasn't a lot of conversation
on our wedding night. He had gotten a very nice hotel.
I didn't tell him though, on our wedding night because
I knew it was my duty. This is why I'm
(21:21):
marrying him, and so I just went into autopilot. Yeah,
what matters is that you're obeying the one above you.
You're doing what you're told, and you're building up the
Kingdom of God.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
But it doesn't sound like he was particularly into this
marriage either.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, he wasn't. So I stayed living at home with
my mom and he would visit me every four days,
and on the nights that I couldn't get away from work,
he would come over and my mom or my aunt
would make him dinner that made him uncomfortable soul. Then
he stopped coming over on the nights that I worked,
and eventually only started coming over once a week, so
(22:03):
that worked out. But he told me I wasn't a
very good wife, that I didn't have dinner prepared for
him because I was at work. I feel like his
end goal was to just break me and make me
feel less than Those were the only conversations he would
have with me, and I was taught that if I
(22:23):
wasn't happy, then it was my own fault, and so
I had to figure out how to be happy in
spite of what kind of person I was to my husband,
and it just put me into a spiral of depression.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Luanne was fifteen years old and expected to begin married
life with this twenty three year old man who didn't
seem to care about her at all other than to
make sure he could take advantage of his conjugal rights,
and she was just one of four wives. They were
a big but by the sounds of it, not very
happy family.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
We had family dinners on Sundays, and when I was
first married, it was so awkward to go, so sometimes
I didn't go and I would get in trouble for that.
When I say I got in trouble, he just yelled
at me. He never physically harmed me, but he yelled
at me really well. But yeah, we would have family dinners,
(23:20):
family outings, and if there was church, then he wanted
us all to sit together. If there was a church dance,
then he wanted us all to sit together. Sometimes I
did and sometimes I didn't. I was definitely the black
sheep in the family. But I did figure out that
if I was friends with the other wives, with my
(23:41):
sister wives, then these get togethers were tolerable.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And did you get along kind of genuinely or was
that you were kind of playing happy families?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
At first, it was just playing happy family and just
being kind just to survive. But I eventually did develop
relationships with my sister wives, and I started to enjoy
being around them. They started to open up to me
more and sharing stories that you do not share with
your sister wife.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That must have been important to have that support network.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I eventually realized how unhappy all of his wives are.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Of course, we haven't spoken to Jeremy's other wives who
are still within the order, so we can't say for
sure how they felt about their marriages. But during the
early years of Luanne's marriage, everyone around her seemed focused
on making sure she became pregnant.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
When I was sixteen, I was moved into my own
apartment and living by myself and getting more pressure to
get pregnant. And I eventually did get pregnant. And when
I told him I just took a pregnancy test and
it said I'm pregnant, he said, well, we'll see, and
that was his response, and then he leaves. And a
(25:00):
month later I reminded him, I'm still pregnant because I
was trying so hard to be a good wife.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And you'd done the thing, the thing that you were
meant to do.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, And I just wanted him to like me. I
just wanted to feel like he liked me. I really
really wanted to be loved, so I would remind him
I'm still pregnant, and he was like, well, is it
even mine? And he would say stuff like that to me,
and I said, why would you ask me that? And
he's like, well, I don't know where you'd been. I
didn't see a doctor during my first pregnancy at all.
(25:33):
There was no doctor's appointments, no checking to see if
I was healthy or if the baby was healthy. And
then when I was in labor, my mom came to
stay with me for the day. They called one of
the leaders of the order to come help deliver my
baby because they had more experience, and the whole time
(25:54):
that they were there, they kept saying, can you make
this happen faster? Or how can we speed this along.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Luanne was freshly eighteen and terrified while this impatient man
essentially man, explained her labor to her. Luanne says that
there were no medical professionals there and that it was
her husband who did her stitches afterwards, Fortunately, both Luanne
and her daughter were okay. Luanne's second pregnancy, which was
(26:23):
around a year later, was even tougher. She says that
for most of her second labor she was left alone, panicked,
in and out of consciousness, but luckily Luanne's second daughter
was born healthily as well. These two girls became something
for Luanne to hold onto.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
When I held my first baby for the first time,
I realized what it was to love an the human being,
more than myself. I loved my girls. I still love
my girls.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Even after Luanne had the kids. Jeremy wanted so badly,
she says, she was left to fa for herself and
their two daughters, basically all on her own.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
He didn't support me at all. He kept a room
in the apartment that I was in and kept the
door locked and had his storage in there. But I
paid for the rent and the utilities. I paid for
my own groceries. When I had kids, I paid for everything,
all of their needs. And then one time he came
(27:24):
home and he said, do you have food storage? And
I said not really, And he said, well, I have
a bucket of beans in my closet here in my apartment.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Just to be absolutely clear, what lu Anne is suggesting
here is that Jeremy kept a lot room that only
he had access to in Luanne's apartment, which lu Anne
was paying for, and the room was full of from
what I can gather beans.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
He said, I'll sell it to you for five dollars,
and I said, okay. I didn't feel like I had
an option to tell him no, because you don't tell
the one above, you know, And so I just let
him pull the bucket of beans out and stick it
in my pantry and then charge me five dollars.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
What's the point of the husband's then, what are they bringing?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Well, the wives are supposed to have a baby every year,
so the husband brings home his sperm every week.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Oh, thank you so much, gratefully received. I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Well it's better when they leave.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, I can't get over how utterly bizarre and
also how cruel that beans incident sounds.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
As Luanne tells it, it's like Jeremy was hopped up
on the power that the orders hierarchy provided him with.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Shortly after I got married, I realized I am going
to be miserable for the rest of my life. And
it kind of just hit me like a brick, like, oh,
this is my life. I'm going to be that did
to have babies and support myself and support my family
and try to please my husband, try to please my boss.
(29:09):
And that was the beginning of my depression.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
So at what point did you start thinking about actually
leaving the order.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, my cousin, who had left a year previously, sent
LDS missionaries to my house to try to talk to me.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
LDS stands for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints. It's the mainstream Mormon church.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
They proceeded to tell me, well, we know about your group,
we know about the pulling this relationship you're in. And
then my mind went to, oh, somebody is sharing our secrets.
I need to figure out who and how they're finding
out so that I can report back to the leader.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Wow, so you're still even though you're well you definitely
didn't like this life, you're still wanting to report that back.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Well, you want to be accepted, You want to be loved.
You know, any time you can get a second of belonging,
you desire that so much.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I ended up having a long conversation with this missionary.
I agreed to meet with them at a nearby church
where nobody would see me, and they taught me about
the atonement of Christ.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
For those of you who aren't across the vocabulary, the
atonement of Christ refers to the sacrifice that Jesus Christ
made to atone for the sins of humanity. In Mormon faith,
it means all people, regardless of religious or moral standing,
are saved.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
When they taught me about the atonement, it was the
first time I ever felt his love, and it was
the first time I ever felt love for myself, and
I wanted to keep feeling that. And I thought, how
(31:03):
do I keep feeling this in the situation that I'm in?
And then my cousin appeared and she said, you know
you can leave, right and I thought I can. The
(31:24):
thought of leaving the Order never occurred to me. It
occurred to me that I could get out of the
Order by ending my life, but it never occurred to
me that I could get out of the Order by
leaving the Order. The wheels started turning for me, and
she said, well, if you did leave, when would you
do it. This was a Wednesday afternoon when we had
(31:45):
this conversation, and I said Friday.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
After the break, Luanne hatches a secret plan to get
herself and her kids away from the Order. Once Luan
(32:23):
spoke the idea of leaving the Order into existence there
in that church, she knew she couldn't delay. She wanted
to be gone in less than three days.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It has to be Friday. My cousin would come to
my house at night. She'd park a few blocks away
and walk to my house after dark and help me pack.
We pack all night long. I was just being very
secretive those two days, packing as much as I could.
And then Friday, I decided that I couldn't take my
(32:56):
kids to the babysitter and I couldn't go to work
because it wasn't safe to be separated from my girls.
I didn't want to risk being caught leaving because I
didn't know what would happen to me if I was.
I had heard stories of girls being kept in a
closet for a week until they agreed not to try
(33:17):
to leave again. I had seen girls that supposedly tried
to leave and then they disappear for a month, and
they come back more loyal and more obedient than they
were before. So I didn't show up to work on Friday.
My girls didn't show up to the babysitter. On Friday.
I went to another cousin's house I had left fifteen
years prior to hang out at her house, and me
(33:42):
and my cousin went to my apartment at noon with
my girls in the car to see if anybody had
tried to check up on me. And my sister came
running out and she tried to open the back seat
where my girls were, but it was lot and my
cousin jumped in the car and she started driving, and
my sister grabbed the door of the driver's side and
(34:05):
started running with the car, and my cousin said what
do I do? And I said drive faster, and my
sister let go of the door and started chasing us
down the road, saying, you give me those girls. You
do not deserve to have those girls.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Luanne's escape was so abrupt that she hadn't even been
able to grab all the boxes she'd packed. So the
next day she returned to her old house. This time,
volunteers from the LDS church came with her, thirty of them,
but Luanne's family were there too. She says they tried
to stop her from leaving. Lu Anne stood strong. She
(34:42):
had her entourage of church volunteers, and one of them
called the police.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
When the police officer came and said we have to go,
my family all wanted to hug me goodbye. I felt
like this is the last time I'm going to see them,
and so I hugged everybody by and I walked away.
And I was walking away from my family towards that
group of strangers, and I knew that I was going
(35:08):
to be okay, but I had to figure out what
I was going to do next.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Luanne needed to build a whole new life for herself.
Early on, she managed to find an apartment of her own.
She also got her first job on the outside, where
she was selling family portraits to pass us by in
a parking lot of a grocery store. Now that's a
nightmare job for most people. I definitely can't imagine anything worse,
but especially for someone who's been taught to fear and
(35:37):
mistrust the outside world for the last twenty years. Luanne
even ended up putting herself through school, finishing her last
three years of high school in just one year. Obviously,
it sounds like you were kind of really making a
life for yourself out there. But how did it feel
to be away from the family and the order.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
It was really hard to leave my family. My mom
and my sister were my best friends, and I knew
that by choosing to leave the Order, I was choosing
to lose that relationship. I would call my mom. She
would say things to me like, we can't talk to
you anymore. One of my close family members said, you're
not my sister anymore. You left the Order. You chose
(36:21):
to leave the Order, so you're not a part of
this family anymore. It was hard.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Are you still not in touch with any of them? No?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I will call my mom every four ish years, and
when I get off the phone, I remember why I
don't call her, and why is that she is not
proud of me or the things that I have done
to hurt the Order.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
It's funny because obviously, from an outside perspective, you've done
so many heroic things and put yourself out on a limb,
and everyone should be proud of you for what you've done.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah. So, after I left, I did not want to
hurt anybody. I wanted to make a life for myself.
I wanted to focus on surviving. But I kept hearing
stories of the abuse that was still going on in
the group, and I realized I can do something. So
(37:20):
I went to the Attorney General's office and told them
I am a witness to an underage marriage. I was
married to my first cousin. I have two little girls
with this individual. I am a witness of this. This
is still happening in there today. And it took a
couple tries before they took my case. It felt like
(37:42):
they were afraid of the Kingstons, but I don't know
why they would be. But nobody wanted to touch my
case until they finally did, and they did DNA samples
and they did pick him up, and he did go
to jail for incest. The sentence was that he would
(38:03):
go to jail for up to a year and I
think he got out after nine months.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Wow. And that was for incest. Was he never charged
with having sex with a minor, so.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
They were able to go after him for one count
of incest, but statutory rape all of the other stuff,
the statute limitations had run out on that.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
And how did you feel putting him away?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I was scared, you know, repercussions for my family. I
didn't receive any repercussions, so that was good. But it
felt rewarding in a sense that somebody was caught for
doing something and maybe it was scared them enough to
stop doing what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Luanne has gone beyond just holding Jeremy accountable for their marriage.
Sort of inadvertently, she found herself as the go to
person for other girls trying to get away from the order.
It sounds like she's become almost a kind of folk
hero for those who question their life in the group.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
I have had girls dropped off at my house at night.
We stay up all night talking and then they decide
to go back. I have had girls call me and say,
how do you raise your kids outside of the order
and have them be good? I have had girls dropped
off of my house and I have helped them call
(39:29):
a police report in so that they don't have to
go back. Throughout the years, anybody who's ever reached out
for help getting out, I have been able to help them.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
And how many people do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I left in two thousand, maybe between ten and twenty.
Maybe you know. I don't advertise, but I'm helping people leave.
But if anybody reaches out, then.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
We're advertising now, I guess. So roll up, roll up,
get into the house.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Luanne realized that she couldn't keep sheltering runaway girls who
shot to her house without notice forever. It just wasn't sustainable,
so she came up with a new idea.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I have started a nonprofit with four other women who
also left polygamy, and we created an organization that offers
educational scholarships to people that have left polygamy. Because the
average person that leaves polygamy has an eighth grade education,
so we felt like the biggest help we could give
(40:35):
was to help them and encourage them to go to
school and get an education and learn for themselves what
they wanted in life.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
That's amazing, and how's that going?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Well? We opened our doors in twenty eighteen. We are
established to the point where we have been able to
give out over sixty scholarships. We just want to be
a light of hope to those that have left polygamy
and show them that, look, you can leave a bad
situation and make a better life for yourself.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Absolutely, so I think we can move on to what
I'm hoping is a happier story, which is your love story.
You met your husband, Tell me about meeting him and
what that was like.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
So I was convinced to meet a friend at a
dance club, and so when I showed up, she had
sent my husband out to the parking lot to pay
for my parking and for my entrance fee, and he
followed me around the dance club all night long, and
I just thought, oh boy, you are annoying.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Over time, Luanne warmed to this very persistent guy. His
name is Dustin, though she's always just called him Cooper
by his surname. He seemed like a good person, like
he genuinely cared for her, and lu Anne fell in
love with him.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
When we were talking about getting married, I've realized that
I could not handle the anticipation of being married again,
and I told him, I said, I don't think I'm
going to marry you if we don't do it today.
He went to go get a ring, and I went
to go get a dress for me and my girls,
and we met back up that evening and we got
married that night. It was exactly the way I wanted
(42:16):
it to go, because I could not handle the anticipation
of being married again.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Well, I can imagine that would have been a very
hard thing to kind of do again. I can see
why you were anxious about it. The thought of having
to wear a dress again, and the last time you
wore one was then, and all of these things would
be kind of triggering memories.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Well, it was the fact that I was in control
at home, and that I was worried that he would
be in control afterwards, you know, but there would be
another male figure in my life that I would have
to obey or include. I just really love my freedom.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
It sounds like, you know, thank God, you've found yourself
a really nice guy.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, I definitely did.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
It makes me think about the women who are still
living within the Kingston clan. What do you think about
them now that you're on the outside.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I hope that some of them have found some happiness.
I know that a big survival trait is going numb
so that things can happen around you that you have
no control over. But I don't know how possible it is,
but I do hope that there's some happiness in there.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Finally, I'm just thinking for the listener and for myself.
Your story. It's so unusual and it's so unique. What
do you think is a sort of universal thing about
the experience. What is something we can all learn from?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I would say, listen to your heart, don't let yourself
stop dreaming. The decision we had to make leaving the
order was do I want my freedom or do I
want my family? And some people choose their family or
their freedom. That's some more important to them. Listen to
your heart. If there is something inside of you telling
(44:16):
you that there's something better, then there is something better.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Thank you so much, Luanne, Well, thank you. While many
(44:47):
people have alleged abuse at the hands of the Order,
and some Order members have been convicted of abuse in
the past, the Order states on its website that it
and I quote has been speaking out publicly again it's
fraud and abuse for decades. We reaffirm to our members
that this type of behavior goes completely against our beliefs
(45:08):
and principles, and we cannot support anyone found to be
engaged in this type of behavior. If you want to
keep up with Luan's amazing work, the organization that she runs,
which provides women who left polygamy with scholarships, is called
Hope After Polygamy. We've put a link in the show
notes if you want to learn more about them or
support their work. Next time, on The Girlfriend's Spotlight, Nelly
(45:36):
goes undercover.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
In the first pair ofgaph she rates could I pass
a week in the insane ward a Blackwell's Island? I
said I could, and I would and I did.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Hey you've reached the girlfriend's hotline. You can leave your
mini story after the tone right catulator Bye.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
The classic moment with some of my closest friends is
that when we're visiting each other, traveling together, or when
we live together at university, we would pick one of
our beds as the morning coffee slash morning tea drinking
area and.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Just talk shit about anything.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
We're watch the videos and just spend time with each
other before getting our day started. And it's moments like
that we're having girlfriends is just the best.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
If you have your own story like the one you
just heard, and you'd like the whole girlfriend's going to
hear it, then please send it to us. You can
record it as a voice memo under ninety seconds please
and email it straight to the girlfriends at novel dot Audio.
Please don't include your name, we're keeping things a little anon.
(46:55):
We want stories like say that one time you've faked
an emergency on an awful date and your bestie bailed
you out with a phone call we love her. Or
that time when all of your girls showed up on
your doorstep with five pizzas, two tups of ice cream,
and three bottles of saven your blanc because the man
of your dreams just dumped you. I want stories that
(47:17):
are meaningful or silly. I want big, I want small.
I'm desperate to hear them, so send them over. This season,
we're supporting the charity Womankind Worldwide. They do amazing work
(47:39):
to help women's rights organizations and movements to strengthen and grow.
If you'd like to find out more or donate to
help them secure equal rights for women and girls across
the globe, you can go to Womankind dot org dot UK.
The Girlfriend's Spotlight is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts.
(48:00):
For more from Novel, visit novel dot audio. The show
is hosted by me Anna Sinfield. This episode was written
and produced by Jake O'taivich. Our researcher is Zaiana Yusuf.
The editor is Hannah Marshall, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan
r Executive producers. Production management from Joe Savage, Sarie Houston
(48:23):
and Charlotte Wolfe. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas
Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Jakotivich, Nicholas Alexander
and Danasinfield. Original music composed by Louisa Gerstein and Jemma Freeman.
The series artwork was designed by Christina Limpool. Willard Foxton
(48:44):
is creative director of Development and Special thanks to Katrina Norville,
Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts, as well
as Carl Frankel and the whole team at w M.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Rouchin Arbats Capture Chauchin Lugin touching
Speaker 4 (49:15):
H
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