February 19, 2025 • 42 mins
In this insightful episode, special guest and TPI coach Dave Phillips joins Chris Finn to discuss the evolution of golf coaching, fitness, and the use of technology in the game. From the transformation in coaching methods to the importance of understanding each player’s unique needs, they dive deep into what makes the difference between average and elite athletes like Jon Rahm and Tiger Woods. Dave and Chris explore the simplicity behind complex biomechanics, how great coaches make difficult concepts accessible, and how modern tools and data are shaping the future of golf. They also touch on the importance of developing young athletes and how sports like baseball and football are starting to embrace similar training approaches. With a nod to the future, they share their thoughts on how AI and technology will revolutionize golf coaching in the next decade. To see how your mobility stacks up, take our research-backed mobility assessment here: https://www.par4success.com/podcast Follow Dave On Instagram @tpidave !
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Go over to the golf in his bomb squad.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm your host, Chris fin and today have probably one
of my guests that I've been the most excited about,
and it's actually surprising. He's one of the co founders
of TPI and I've gotten to spend a lot of
time with his counterpart, but not quite as much time
as with this gentleman.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So if you have been living under a rock, his
name is Dave Phillips.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
He is one of the best instructors in the country
for a long time, works with so many of the
top players and honestly, if you are familiar with the
world of golf fitness, I would call him one of
the four fathers in it. And it's an honor to
have you on, Dave. If it wasn't for you and Dave,
I wouldn't be sitting here today and have my business.
And it's been so it's really tired to have you
(00:49):
on the show, and thanks for making the time to
come on.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey, you're more than walker man. I see a lot
of the things you do and I think it's great
the way you promote golf fitness and what you've built.
As we look at you as a pioneer as well.
So good job.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Just trying to pick up, you know, the breadcrumbs that
you guys have left as you've built you know, TPI.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
And yeah, I think for those of.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Us listening, you know, most of the listeners hopefully have
an idea of what TPI is and kind of what
it has become. But you know, give us a little
backstory some of the early days.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You know, it was just you and Greg. How did
it start?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
And you know, I personally love the entrepreneurial journey and
I can't hear this story enough so and I actually
never heard it from your perspective, so but love for you.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
To share it. It goes back. I mean, you know,
as an instructor, you know, I was always passionate about
learning about the golf, swinging and trying to understand it,
and a lot of that comes from playing. And you know,
when I was younger, I was a good player, played
in college and then tried to play professionally and play
some events and then started to battle with a few
niggling injuries that I got. When I was younger, used
(01:51):
to race motorcycles and do crazy stuff. You know. I
was born in England, raised in Africa and all over
the world, and had an amazing child who'd lived in
twenty seven different country. But that that brought me into
I played every sport growing up, played everything, and racing
motorcycles actually hurt my low back and I didn't really
know it. My dad was a pretty tough time and
he's like, I just put masking take one. And it
(02:14):
wasn't until I got in the competitive golf that I
really thought that, you know, there's something not quite right.
You know, every time I go after it, or when
I played four days, I'm in pain. And ended up
going on how Man MRI and finding out that I
had to the set joints that were broken and I'd
broken one of my low vertebrae and just started then
kind of in that panic mode where you're a good player,
(02:34):
you got to a certain point and you start going, well,
what can I do now? Right?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
I didn't really want to have surgery back then, yah,
And I just started learning a little bit more about
the body and understanding about fitness and just reading what
I could and studying around good players.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
You know, at the time, I worked with David Lebetter
and he had this huge stable of great players. So
this was in the early nineties. David had you know,
Faldo and Ernie and we had David Frost and Dennis
Watson and just a course incredible players, a few names. Yeah,
As a young instructor, I got to be around and watch,
and you know, I think we learned so much as
(03:12):
kids from mimicking and watching, and I learned the same way.
That was kind of how I learned. And I just
watched and I was like a fly on the wall
and every opportunity I could, and I built my base
of working with good players around then. And then I
left and obviously I started my own business. Kind of
got my break working with Tom Kite and how Sutton
(03:32):
in the late nineties early thousands, and I was at
Kay's Valley, which is an incredible golf club in Baltimore, Maryland.
I had a great learning center there, great opportunity to
teach whoever. I wanted to have players flying in and
still kind of searching. There was things that I would
do with players and I'm like, why doesn't this guy
do this? You know, I can't do it. And it
(03:54):
wasn't until I met my business partner, doctor Greg Rose,
and I met him through really by chain as it
was raining. I was reading the Washington Post and there
was this article about this guy that had opened a
the first kind of golf gym Washington. I was like,
what is this and it talked about three D biomechanics
and talked about movement screens and I was like, who
is this guy? And I called it and he picked
(04:17):
up the phone and he said this is what I do.
Why don't you come down and made bring one of
your players And I'm like, you're busy today and he
said no, it was raining, and we drove down there.
It really opened up this world that I thought when
I first met. I was like, this is what's missing
in the golf industry. We don't have a simple way
(04:38):
of understanding how the body moved and correlating it in
a way that could help anybody regardless of how they
swung it. And it also made sense as to why
there was so many different golf swings, and you know,
to come long story short, I started bringing more players
to GREG and understanding kind of more about the body
the assessment screening, and then I brought the CEO of
(05:00):
Titleists to see him, and at the time I taught
his son, which a young kid by the name of
Peter Ulin who now plays or who's a very good player,
was amazing back then. And you know, I remember taking
him through the same thing and Wally saying to me
when I was driving him back to the airport, you know,
that's the future of golf instruction. I think you spend
more time with Greg and once you guys come up
(05:22):
with an idea and I'd love to look at it.
And this is where, together, including with Wally, we kind
of came up with this concept of building the first
Olympic style training center for golf where we looked at
everything but clubs, I mean and clubs, including clubs. But
everybody was looking at golf equipment as a manufacturer. They
weren't really looking at the body buying mechanics, how people moved,
(05:45):
and how that carrelated. And he gave us the opportunity
to build the titles perform says to back in two
thousand and four.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, that's made from an entrepreeur side, finding your own
blue ocean. Yeah, but you know, I think from an
instructional standpoint, you were probably one of the first guys
is when I started getting the golf that. Yeah, I
think it was in the sun and I was probably fifteen.
I didn't start playing golf so after university in Typos
a basketball player, but really kind of I would go
to a lot of coach you know, a lot of instructors,
(06:14):
particularly I was starting the business, but in the different
lesson every single place. You know, I'm pretty sure I
showed up with the same swing and it was literally
a different lesson in every single place. I went, Oh,
you gotta do this, you gotta do or it was
this is what I teach, This is the met like,
this is what you need to do, no matter what
you were. Kind of one of the first guys that
I can remember.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Were you taught to the player? Right?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I think now if you look at you know,
the guys you work with, like John rom swing doesn't
look like other players that you work with, right, You
don't have like a method where everybody has to look
the same.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Where did that come from? It was that before you
met Greg? Was that influence through understanding the body?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
More so? Actually, honestly, you know, when I think back,
it came back to me learning golf. And I was
in Papua New Guinea at the time, small island. Oh really,
and there was a golf club called Lay Golf Club
and there was a golf professional there called Gregson. Now
he was from Australia and he was amazing. He won
everything around. There was tons of tournaments, but he was good.
(07:13):
And I never could afford golf lessons, so I used
to just watch him hip balls and I would watch
and I would pick up range balls and he would
watch me and give me a few tips. And I
used to watch him and notice that to start his
golf swing he would kick his right knee in and
then pull back, so he'd have to push with his
right knee and go back. And I did the same thing.
(07:36):
And one day he was watching me and he's like,
why are you kicking your knee and to turn back?
And I said, well, that's what you do, and he said,
but I have to do it because I have an
artificial hip and it's the only way I can get
it to turn. And so as a young kid, right away,
I was like, well, I just copied this working for me.
(07:56):
But it started probably back then. This journey of swings
don't need to look the same, and this physicality. So
what I really think back to the start of it
was there were lots of different swings. You know, growing
up in different countries, there was always you know, especially
when you saw where I came from, which was where
I was born in England, raised in Kenya. They lived Africa.
(08:19):
We didn't have driving ranges where you had golf balls.
You would go a piece of grass with your own
golf balls, hit them and go pick them up. Now
you better start to learn to hit them straight because
golf balls were expensive.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, you didn't.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
You don't want to be driving around in the weeds
because you didn't know what was wringling around in the
grass and believe in the summer the stuff that was there.
So you learned to hit them straight. And it didn't
matter how, it just mattered that you could. So they
were all these different ways to swing and move the
golf club. And you know, I think everybody has that
guy at his golf club that is the club champion
(08:55):
or the single digit player that looks weird that's still
playing great. And that was always this kind of world
to me, and that I was never want to be, Hey,
you need to be in this bucket. It was always like, well,
there's lots of buckets, so why can't we just be
an out bucket, you know, and figure out how to
play good out of out bucket.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, so then obviously it's only you and Greg team up.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Obviously with the titles performance since Tuto for you guys
are off and running. You know, that's over twenty years
at this point, I have to imagine. I mean, I've
seen the evolution as it's occurred. How how has your
approach to you know, working You know, obviously you got
a guy like John Rahm. We were just talking before
we started recording, how much you love developing players, Like
when you get a player now versus say, twenty years ago,
(09:42):
is your approach to how you you know, the first
first time you meet them and look at their swing
and trying to figure out what are we going to
work on?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Has that approach evolved for you?
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Hey, we kind of we knew what we were doing
twenty one years ago and we still do the same thing.
How has that obviously technology has been introduced, kind of
have How How have you grown and changed?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I think there's pieces that evolve. You always evolved as
a coach. You get better. There's a lot of great
coaches out there, you know, there's a lot of great
teachers that are great technical coaches. There's coaches that are
just you know, just just great at what they do.
And you know, I definitely learned from mentors and I
have a lot around me. I respect player that people
like David Lebett is super smart, and yet he was
(10:24):
put in kind of a bucket. He had a book
called The Golf Swing that was started and you know,
people looked at him as a method teacher, but he
really wasn't. He just had this book called the Golf Swing,
which was actually a training manual, but it was kind
of a system. And I serve a lot of people
succeed with that system, and I serve many people fail
with that system. And then watching players like Wich Harmon
(10:44):
that always seemed to just be able to say the
right thing at the right time to get their players
to perform. And in many ways it looks so simple,
but when you actually sit down and talk to Butch,
he understands everything. Right. You could talk about technology whatever
you want, and people say, well, he doesn't know how
to you. He knows how to use it all. He
(11:04):
just has a very good understanding of what it takes
to get that player from point A to point B.
If I always go back to you know, I'm kind
of a historian in many ways. And if you if
you know, there's a town in Austria called Coach or Coach,
it's ko c H. They used to build coaches there,
which are carriages that transport you from one place to another.
(11:28):
And that's what a coach is. The goal take this
whatever it is, this player that comes in and sit
down and get their goals and find out what makes
them tick and then transport them from one place to
another where they want to go. And there's lots of
ways to do that. And so talking about how I've
evolved as a coach, obviously I understand technology extremely well,
(11:52):
and I've got experts around me that know it even
better than I do, like great, and yet I understand
how it correlates to each place. There's some players that say,
you know, we always ask the question or you're a
more information or less information kind of guy. Yeah, you know,
leade players will always say, well, I want the information.
I know you want it, but can you handle it?
(12:13):
A lot of them can't, and you can tell very
quickly the ones that can't, and you have got to
take them away from it because left to their devices.
If they see graphs and this disaster read the it
is a disaster because they start formulating their own ideas
of what that is and it's wrong, and they can
The amazing thing about elite level player is is they
(12:34):
can change like that. Haven was like a he was
like an etcher sketch. If you showed Haven one thing,
he couldn't go back. So you would. You'd go, Okay,
here's what and you go. He'd go, you sure, and
he'd be like, well, yeah, I'm sure, and he goes
because if you tell me to do this, I'm going
to do it and I won't be able to go back.
(12:54):
And then you're like paniced, You're like, oh no, you
can't go back to bus the work, which you know.
There's savante in many ways. And I've always said that
I think the truly elites have a flickering light. They
may have add they may have ADHD, they may be
on the spectrum. There there's something that makes them tick.
(13:14):
And I think if you look at all the goats,
the greatest of all times, they change their sport. They're
not just good, they actually change the sport. Tiger change
the sport. Serena Williams changed the sport, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan,
they change their sport because of what they do. And
I've always been intrigued with that. And then when I
(13:35):
look at a player today, I'm looking for that. I'm
looking for what are they doing that's unique. I have
a young player right now who I think could be
one of the next superstars in the world. He or
it is developing and has gone from two thousands of
the world rankings to top eighty in two years. And
you're going, just watch out, it's not maybe quite ready
(13:55):
yet that they're everything is there, and you know, that's
what excites me the most.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
And I think one I think that I've always enjoyed
and appreciated, particularly as you get you know, going through
the certifications early in my career, and was the simplicity
that you guys put to all of the complexity, because
I think we know, you know, obviously, you know, coming
from a strength and conditioning and physio background, the body
is not necessarily simple. And then anyone who's listening who
plays the game of golf knows that ain't simple.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You mentioned, you know, the great teachers, you know that
are able to you know, but for example, who could
like knows everybody knows like what to disseminate and what
not to more most importantly, what not to to give
to the to the student.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
I mean it comes from having a great understanding of
your player. In other words, you know, working with John
when I first started with him, you know, I'd spent
some time with the Spanish Girl Federation, I'd spent some
time around Sebbi Balasteros, I'd spent time watching that cult
(14:58):
ship and being a world wide person that lived in
different cultures, I had a very I went to thirteen
different high schools that you had to DOABT. That was
like a yeah, right, So I look at that culture
and go, okay, how does that person take information? And
then you have to study it, you have to understand it,
(15:19):
and then you have to break it down in the
way they accept it, not the way you think it
should be accepted. And if you're good at that, you
can be a great coach. And I think that's what
makes great coaches is they take complex situations and they
make them simple. And I've always had this three kind
of bucket theory and that when I look at a player,
(15:40):
that's coming for help. It's either obvious, it's either complex
or it's chaotic, which basically, if it's obvious right away,
I know what it is. It's like, Okay, I do
some basic physical screen. I can see how you move.
You're trying to do this, but your body can't do this,
or you know, maybe the ball positions too far back,
or your alignment so offwer it's something based. If it's
(16:01):
more complex, then I don't have all the answers, and
I have to dig deeper, and I have to either
understand maybe I need three D, maybe I need ground
force pressure. Maybe I need to understand what's going on.
Do they have a relationship issue, do they have a cadier?
What's going on? And then if it's chaotic, they're in
a down that you can't even barely talk to them.
And as a coach, that's when you need to step
(16:22):
in and take control. And that might be they've played
some bad tournaments, they're they're worried about them. You can't
get them focused, and that's where you need to step
in and be like, Okay, listen to me, here's what
we're going to do, and you have to take control.
Right And so that's how I handle players. It's occ yeah,
it's either obvious, it's complex, or it's chaotic. Which one
(16:44):
are you? And then I go to work.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's I love.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I love that the bucket system makes it so much simpler,
just for people.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
To understand it, right, A little bit of both, yeah, yeah,
oh yeah, there's going to be those gray are you
a percentage?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You're going to be maybe more one than the other,
but you may have a little bit of everything, but
the same.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's my method, right, you shouldn't have a method, of course,
you should have a method that.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Was we have the same thing physically, right, You're going
to like, is it a mobility issue, a stability now,
how you address those maybe different, But I think from
a diagnostic standpoint, you understand what somebody is and where
they're at. You got to have that, especially if you're
going to try to teach others how to do it,
like there has to be some standardized way to do it.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
It has to be. It has to be. You have
to be able to mold it right and move it
around your method and fit within the buckets. And as
a coach for coaches are listening, you should have a method.
There should be certain things you like to see in
a golf swing, but you should also understand that you
might not get there because of their movement pattern, right.
I mean, God's a perfect example. I mean he was
(17:42):
presented right away with I got a dorse at flex
your ankle, a foot that doesn't move because of you know,
a club foot. When he's a kid that's been talked
about to break his ankle, reset it. Flex's ankle. The
ankle flexion. We know, you know it relates to early extensions.
So what do you do. You have to look around
and you have to build a swing. Or he just presented.
(18:05):
The reason on why I start working with him is
he had that swing when I got it, and you know,
his coach from Spain, they worked on a short swing.
But as he got to college he got better. They
started trying to change it, and everybody was telling him
he needed to change it. And I was the one
guy that's sitting No, no, no, no, don't change it.
It fits the way you moved perfectly, right, yeah, just
(18:29):
teach you how to use it, right.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
So I'd love to dive more into the middle c
or the first year, I guess the middle of the complexity,
particularly with the you know, we're in the age of
tech right where the force plates and you got ground forces,
we can measure like literally everything.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
How do you go.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
About And I think this is a good you know,
for coaches listening to understand kind of just your thought
process of how you decide, but also for golfers listening
to know when a coach, you know, when maybe you
shouldn't be looking at some information and if your coach
and maybe it doesn't necessary really know everything, maybe is
giving you the wrong information or you're looking at the
wrong information.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
How do you know when to go you.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Know, three D kinematics versus ground forces and looking at
you know, sequencing of that versus Yeah, how do you
know which you know? Am I putting you on force plates?
Maybe forget the forces, I'm going to do three D
look at kinematics. I'm always looking at everything. How do
you kind of approach that with?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
If you we start with movement? Right, So we start
so for us, the first thing is I need to
know how you move before we do anything. I got
to know how you move because why would I tell
you something that you can't physically do? So you know,
when when a player first comes in the first thing
we do is we sit them down and too, why
are you here? How can we help right with the issue. Now,
we're still going to do everything we want to do,
(19:43):
but we're going to address the three things that they
want us to do during that as well. And basically,
depending on the level of playing, you know, if it's
elite that is struggling, or if it's a tour player
that's injured and trying to get back, or if it's
a young development tool player, who is it? Where are
they on the spectrum will depend, But we still collect
(20:06):
the data because I want to know and remember, the
data is for me. It's not for you, it's not
so the data is for me so that I never
tell you to do something you cannot do. So first
start with the physical natmen screen. I know how you move.
Then I'm going to look at forces like how do
you utilize the ground? Do you use it effectively? That's kinetics, right,
(20:26):
That's how I'm using ground force, which tells me a
lot about how you rotate, the speed in which you rotate,
and how you move. So everybody has a little bit
of lateral, a little bit of rotary, a little bit
of side beend, little bit of a vertical everything. There's
these talks and forces going on. Once I understand how
those work, then I decide, well, what else do I need?
(20:47):
So if the kinetics that the way you use the
ground is good, then the kinematics are usually pretty good.
Kinematics is three D. Those are the segments and how
they move. If the kinetics and the ground force the
way you ground it isn't that good, then I might
be like, okay, I don't have enough information. Let's get
kinematics and find out why it's not that good. The
(21:09):
physical screen might almost tell me that. Now, if the
physical screen and the kinetics the ground force is good,
but you're still hitting it bad, then I might go
to three D to go, well, why are they Their
ground force is good, but something is off? And that
would the way you release the club or just both
mis release, or how you're controlling the face. Things like
(21:29):
track made launch, monitors, full swing, those kind of things
can show me that as well. So I got to
get all the picture. Why wouldn't I if I have
the technology available to me, which we do, so we
get the picture and then it's a matter of looking
at the data and going h this is pretty easy.
Because we're taking complex, getting all the data and now
(21:49):
I'm going to obvious.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
What looks obvious out of the complex. Yeah, I'm going
to tell.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
You one thing to do that's going to help you better. Right,
and again you started, and that's that's what we do now.
Players that are listening that might struggle when they go
to a coach, the first thing you've got to know
is can you actually do what they're asking you to do,
because that would be the number one reason why you struggle.
You're struggling because they're telling you to do this. They're
(22:15):
not wrong. They might be a great coach going hey,
this is what I believe, this is what you need
to do to get better. And you're like, okay, I'm
all in. And you try and try and try and
try and try, and you are not getting better. You're
getting worse or you just can't seem to grasp it. Well,
you hit it grate on the range, but you can't
do it on the golf course. That tells me there's
something physical, there's a batrier that's stopping you and you're
(22:36):
not able to do it. And that's why I think
as coaches today with the TPI level one screen which
is so easy, it can be done in five minutes.
You should just have that as part of your arsenal.
That should be part of your two bocks. Why wouldn't
you see?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I think it's I was joke Effery, who I
was talking about it with, but basically saying when I
started part of success maybe you know, ten twelve years ago,
it was even even more so when you guys started,
Like I would go to the guys, hey, you know,
golf fitness, and they'd be like, what the heck is
golf fitness?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Right?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
There was like this like not only were you trying
to sell your service, but you're trying to you to
educate them on what the heck you were doing first.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I feel like we're at a point now.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
What I see is most people accept the fact that
they should work out for golf, or that it's good
for them, or that you know, most amateurs are doing that,
but there's such a disconnect on the right stuff versus
the wrong stuff. And I, you know I and you
know and oh John Ram or Rory r JT is
doing this exercise.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I'm just going to go do that exercise.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And to your point, they're just nobody's talking about the assessing,
you know, assessing to what you need to do and
then prescribing correctly. And it sounds like similarly in the
instructional side of things, people should expect that from a
great coach.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
I believe they should. They shouldn't today's world. There's just
it's too simple to be able to do that. If
you're really trying to be better, you need you need
to understand how you move. I mean, you know, the
fundamentals are key. Like you've got to be able to
set up to the golf ball, put your hands on
the club. And yes, there are different postures and there's
different styles, but you know, fundamental of the words fundamentum
(24:05):
comes from a Latin word that means foundation. It is
the fundamentals are the foundation of the golf swing. So
the way you set up, the way you align your body,
the way you grip the club, the way you return
it to impact very very important. You've got to start there.
If you're coaching young kids, you've got to build that base.
But don't turn them into little tour players. Yes, take
(24:26):
them athletes first. Right. If you go to every elite
level tour player, they will tell you that they played
every sport as a kid. And when parents come to
me with a twelve thirteen year old that has this
perfect little golf swing and all he does is play golf, Honestly,
I'm not interested. He's going to get destroyed by the athlete.
Because if you bring me a kid who's sixteen that's
played baseball, swung rotary sports, tennis, you know, can hit
(24:49):
it three hundred yards in the woods, I'm going to
go give me that kid and I'll turn him into
a world beat up because he knows how to create speed.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
So I have three kids, all undert and they'll come
to the range sometimes and we'll be there and then
I'll see that it's just it's always funny my three
kids and they'll be like another parent with the kid
over there and they're doing the right get to this position,
and inevitably my kids will look and they're like, Dad,
do I need to do that? Do I need to
do that? I'm like, no, no, no, see that, try to flag.
Just try to hit it past there, swing hit it farther.
(25:19):
If you hit it past the flag, I'll.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Go get you a milkshake. Like it's literally just just
go fast, go hard, Like let's have fun.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
It's the things with culture too, Like every one of
these Spanish kids that I teach, and I teach a
bunch of them because of John. Yeah, the more incredible
short games. And everybody's like, oh, that's that's Sevy. You know,
they all grew up on a Sevy. I'm like, no,
a lot of them didn't grow up on the Seve.
And in fact, they know who Sabby is. But I'll
tell you why. Culturally, if you go to a lot
of golf courses in Spain, they don't have good practice facilities,
(25:48):
but driving ranges aren't very good. They don't have goles,
but they have a chip and green and they have
a putting green and it is around the chip and
green the putting green because golf bulls are expensive and
they use their own and they chip on pot around
the green and they have little contests. They can always
find a chipping green or putting green. They can't necessiately
find a great driving range. So they over up with
(26:10):
incredible short games, right and the soil in the sand
and they and they just get creative with what they have.
And you know, it's funny to me because if I
was to build a driving range, which I would love
to do. I mean, we have an incredible one.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
I was gonna say, speaking of facilities, we have incredible
and we.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Just rebuilt it. But like if someone said to me,
here's a twenty acre piece of land in the middle
of the woods, that would be like, that would be
like the most incredible thing, because I would build a
driving range around trees and you know, I remember I
was in Kansas City once and I went to this
driving range on a farm and it was a field
(26:49):
and the guy had like a bus out there. He
had all these wrecked cars out there.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, and I was like, this.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Is the greatest driving Everybody was just trying to hit
it through the windows. Yeah, the tire, the door. What's missing?
We need? We need driving rangs with old cars and
rick telecopters out there, you.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Know, intent and target. Yeah, I mean, and it's fun, right,
but that.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Was bringing back right, well.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I think speaking of facility, So I went out there.
I guess last year I tell a story to everybody.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
When I went out we were filming Level two and
Greg was showing me around and we're walking out on
the you know, on the range, and he's showing like
all the different holes that you guys.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I mean, it's phenomenal facility. And we're walking.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I look at Greg and I go, how much AstroTurf
did you guys put down? Because this is like he's like,
He's like Chris, that's that's real. Grass I was like,
no way. I was like, bs, no way. But it
is absolutely immaculate.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
The bays.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You guys have the you know what you know, is
it open yet? It's coming open in the next year,
what's the what are the plans there?
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Under a two year rebuild? On the outside is completely done.
We've been rebuilding some of our new labs. We have
a baseball lab now so we can study rotary athletes
and we we see some MLB players come in. We
even study quarterbacks. So we've had some NFL quarterbacks come
in and we get their three D the way they
use the ground. We physically screen them. So, you know,
(28:12):
in order to get better at what you do, sometimes
I think it's important step outside of what you do
and go another world and see what they do. So
you're like a fly on the wall again, when you're
with a baseball coach that's teaching a pitcher out or
increases velocity and they're in a lab that's right by
your lab, which is Yeah. So I love the cross
you know, the cross sport aspect because it makes me
(28:34):
better as a coach, and I can also see how
quick other coaches use technology. So I'm learning on both
sides constantly. Yeah, and that helps us build our education
program and rebuild. We're currently building a couple other three
D labs right now that are under construction. We've got
some more buildings to do, a new gym to build.
We're building a recovery center that will have you know,
(28:57):
all the stuff that you need. And you know why not,
I mean, we have the ability to do it. The
best players are utilizing it either at their home, so
when they come to us, I want to have whatever
they have access to at our facility, and we will
have that. So it's probably about another year away from
fully being done. We're actually in the midst of building
(29:17):
a two hundred c classroom right now, not only for
our education, but we will do some outside education and
some virtual education from there as well.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Will that be open for amateurs to come out and
do kind of the full experience of ball fitting, cloud fitting.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Come back, I mean right now it's been because we
were so inundated. You know, Titleist has hundreds of tour
players from around the world, so you know, Greg and
i schedule is pretty much book We only see two
players a day, so you know, it's four hours a
day with a player. It's not like you've got ten
lessons a day. Yeah, but we wind up for four
hours and that's what it takes when you're when you're
(29:53):
really looking at everything, you want to leave no stone unturned.
And so right now o account is pretty booked with
ELITD and up and coming next gen players. But we
will have a calendar probably in about another two or
three months that will have dates that people could book
and spend some time with us and some of the
other guys we're training as well.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
So anyone listening would strongly encourage you that was like
heaven on Earth, the especially in that area, to have
that much grass and space, like it's pretty impressive. But
what about the obviously we were both out at the
PGA show. Yeah, you know, you're at the forefront of
seeing the technology and the evolution of stuff that's coming.
What do you see the the next five ten years
(30:34):
of golf. There's obviously all this talk about AI single
camera capture, it's this race to figure out who can
do that first.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You know, how do you see the game?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think in the last five years, the technology we're
just talking about ground forces and force plates developing. The
skill of speed to me has become very I don't
want to say easy, but simple in terms of, you know,
evaluating where the gap is. And I think that's why
we're obviously definitely a contributing factor to why we're seeing
so much speed. I'm sure you're seeing it in your
the younger players you're developing. There's it's incredible how fast
these kids are swaying. What do you see going forward
(31:06):
the next five to ten years, kind of any technology
or things that you're kind of most excited about.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I know you're definitely a big tech guy.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I mean, yeah, we are. I mean, obviously, I think
the hotbed around AI is this, you know, aspect of
being able to get information quite quickly using just a
single camera like a phone or something. And there's a
couple of three D apps out there right now, but
do a great job. I think in many cases I
still look at technology as you know, the accuracy level
(31:38):
needs to be at a point that is applicable. Right,
So for elite level, I need very small margins because
if I tell them one thing that's wrong. You know,
when you think about my fingers this far apart, that's
a couple of millimeters. If you relate that to elite
level player with the club face and the golf ball,
that can mean the difference between missing or green missing
(31:59):
a fairway that much. Right. So when people talk about
accuracy and go, oh, well that's you know, you're you're
you want too much accuracy, I'm like, no, no, you don't
understand who I'm working with. Right, these are the best.
They missed the center of the cop face by millimeters,
not by half an inch, right, Right, there's no marks
nor t marks out on the tub with John Moutt. Right,
(32:20):
everything is in the middle of the face. It's how
far from the middle it's millimeters. So to me, accuracy
needs to be prominent when I'm looking at elite. Now
for everybody else, I think that numbers and things like that,
you don't even know what you're looking for. So you
need simplicity in the numbers. And what I mean by
(32:40):
that is if you're working on stopping swaying, moving left
to right. You need something to set the limit and go, oh,
you didn't do it, or you did.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Beep at you yet that was wrong? Nope, less more.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah. The thing I think technology misses and what I
would like to see how is we've all played golf
and we've hit terrible shots and you get up on
the next tea box and you just rip it, and
you might rip it for three holes and then you
use it. You have no idea why right, and you
(33:16):
think I need to work harder. I'm close, I'm there.
But what if we could measure why what if we
could go back after the round and go, you know,
on those three holes, this spore you did, and I
know on the rest around this one you did, and
chunk that chip on six, this is what you did.
And when you hit it great on seven, this is
what you did. Why is that? Or how good is
(33:38):
everybody on their second ball opposed that first ball if
they put Like, if I could just measure en course situations.
We spend so much time measuring things on a driving arrangement,
no consequence, and I'm like, that's not real.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That was like, that's the analogia.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
One of the things that blew my mind when I
came started playing golf and I fell in love from basketball,
was like, I feel like I'm just shooting free throws
all day and then expecting to go out and dominate
a game like look, and I don't. So I literally
I don't spend much time with it. I asked the
we'll go on the course to play just it's it's
never made sense to me.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I play is to spend way more time on the
golf course than I do. Having them practice. Yeah, we
practice after we warm up, and then we go play
and there's certain parameters and there maybe games we play,
and then after the round, if things aren't working, we
go and look at specifics after the round. Right, here's
what we need to work on for twenty minutes, not
for two hours, not for eight hours. That's ridiculous. And yet,
(34:36):
you know, I think there's this misnomer that the greatest
in the world they just work harder than everybody else. Well,
you could work hard as sitting still with your eyes closed,
you can visualize harder than anybody else's sleep. You can
you know, there are so many things you can do
that maybe they did that they didn't tell you. And
now I still think some of the really best don't
tell you everything anyway. No matter what book is written,
(34:58):
we still don't really know. Logan seeks right. Yeah, there's
like ten books and it's been how many years, but
nobody really knows. So I just think, you know, the
danger around technology is just that is there's putting. There's
more putting coaches today than anything. There's more putting technology
today than anything, but most of it is on a
flat surface, on a straight pot, telling you as the
(35:20):
face open and closed, your path should be X and y.
I let you get one straight put around from inside
three feet. I mean, accidentally, the putts I hit have
a curve to them. Yeah, exactly, say that on the
left to right and the right to left. I don't
do something different because the wind's blowing more this way
(35:41):
that way into me across the greens. You know't you
think the stint meat is the same on every green.
Of course, the thought is moving at different points on
the golf course every green. No matter how much they
try and say it's the same, it's not. So I
just think we're losing some of the point around it.
(36:03):
And I will say one thing, We're always going to
use technology we're always going to look, We're always going
to be interested in it because it's the world we
live in today. I'm not saying it's bad, but well,
I want one thing that technology can't take away from
great coaching is instinct. The best coaches have great instinct.
They know what to say, when to say it at
(36:24):
the right time. And that's that's technology can never do that. Yeah,
we'll be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, and highly one of the things you said, I
think he was actually was very profound to that. I
actual make sure it doesn't get missed.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
The idea of work that everybody thinks that the best
players in our just work harder. I think a lot
of people that I've noticed, I'm curious if you've seen
the same thing, they have a misunderstanding of the definition
of work and that it's the time times, the leverage.
And I think a lot of amateurs have very low leverage,
and so they think, hey, if John Rahm's going to
practice for two hours on this, I'm going to practice
(36:56):
two hours.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I'm going to practice two or three hours.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
They don't realize that he's using like a leverage that's
you know, miles long relative to do an amateur's using
like a pencil, right, And I think that is a
big misnumber. Is that a lot of amateurs have, is they?
I mean I see it even with employees, right, they're like,
oh I worked eight hours?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Cool? Did you Well?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
I have another guy who got more done in two
hours than you did in eight hours, because they are
more leveraged. And I think that's a big part of
when we talk about game improvement and even technology to
your point of like using the correct numbers, the accuracy,
leveraging technology in the right way to get the most
out of it, I think those are that's a huge
element to improve it.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
You're sir Ryan, and you know the word you might
use there that correlates with technology is impulse. Right. It's
a pressure world. We talk about impulse, and what that
means is that the most powerful players are applying force
for a much longer amount of time. You might actually
provide a greater spike or a greater amount of force
(37:57):
for a short amount of time than them, yet they
hit it further than you because they're applying force over
a longer amount of time. It's the same thing the
goats are applying learning over an amount of time there's
twenty four hours in a day you can be learning
while you're sleeping. We proved that, right if you watch
a video. I mean there's a neuroscientist that talks about
(38:19):
this that I've studied in San Diego, and that is,
if you watch a golf swing at night, like before
you go to bed at night, just over and over
and over again, right, and then you turn the lights
off and black everything out. Your brain is searching for
that golf swing and it will play it while you're
sleeping in your brain. How oftimes if you wanted to
(38:41):
learn something and you read a book or something and
maybe it's wor keeps you up late night, Yeah, but
you might read something late at night or study something
at ten o'clock at night, and in the morning you've
got it. You went to sleep right hours you woke up. Well,
your brain was working while you was sleeping. So I
think to your point, this work is totally misused. Today
(39:02):
everybody's like, oh, did you put in a good day's work?
Did you know? You know? What is that?
Speaker 1 (39:07):
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I mean, I don't think I have a stop. I mean,
it doesn't matter what's a weekend, a holiday, there's something
that triggers me, whether it's a thing on TV and
I start thinking about it or whatever. So maybe my
maybe it doesn't look like I'm working eight hours, but
over the course of a week, I might work way
more than everybody else.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Right, yeah, well yeah, I think it's the focus, and
I think it's I think number one, we focus on
outputs and results instead of the inputs, right, And I
think if we if we can focus on the inputs
and then also you know, the work of like it's
not just time or effort.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I say, some of my kids say, that's great that
you tried, but did you try it the right thing?
And what did we learn?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
And like, then let's continue to focus that we're always
moving on a vector and.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
There, yes, definitely, es I think that's a.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Skill that that you and all the top people in
every any industry.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's a skill that has learned that that leverage, focus
and inputs are on the same vector and not scatterbrain,
which we see it with golfers all the time. I'm
gona get a driver and I'm gonna I'm gonna or
my putting here, I'm gonna They have no idea, They
go to range. I see guys at my club they
bang balls for two hours a day and their their
handicap goes up after it's like what that?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
And then and then they're like dumbfounded or baffled this
to why.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
But it's amazing is your get players that don't play
for two weeks and they have no expectation. They stop
up on the first tea and they get it. Great.
Mm hmm, I'm played for two weeks. I'm toast the club.
My god, I understand it. And then all of a
sudden they start thinking about what they're doing and they play.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Tell the mind is a terrible thing.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
It can be an amazing thing, but it also can
can mesticly do in a in a in a way
that's not enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
But but Dave, I got thank you so much. I
know you're busy.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I want to thank you so much for taking the
time to jump on with me today. And you know,
just for people who want to connect follow everything that
you and TPI are doing, what's what's the best place
for them to do that?
Speaker 3 (40:52):
TPI on my TPI dot com or the TPI YouTube
channel is probably where you can see the most content
that we put out. We're putting out a lot more.
We're trying to film every player that comes in now
and then we edit that and try and create.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I've seen some of those resell ones have been amazing,
they've been so so cool.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Really in depth. We have a great film crew and
we really try and make people understand all the pieces
to the puzzle to get better. And yeah, I mean
there's so many great TPI certified guys out there like
yourself that if you're looking to get physically screened, go
to MYTPI dot com, put in your zip code to
find an expert. Find somebody in your local area that
(41:30):
can take you through a physical screen. It can be
a medical professional, Finnis professional golf professional, but try and
find somebody that just give you an idea of how
you're moving, and that will give you so much information.
If you just did nothing but understand how you move,
you would realize why you struggle with certain things in
your girlf swing and why it's difficult for you to
get better. And with the right coach, you can either
(41:51):
teach around the physical limitation. There's lots of coaches that
do that every day and are very successful. And just
so you know, when we do this physical screen. Few
people pass. Even the best in the world have issues.
They just don't let them to affect their ability to perform.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, well I always joke ever, you know, talk about
the screen or whatever, and they say, well, well I
bet I could pass.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
So sure if you're if you're one of the like
six percent that can pass every single thing.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah, love to see it. If you're the Unicorn, I
would love good for you. So thanks again. Dave can't
thank you enough for coming on and everyone listening.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
We'll put every all the contexts and all the links
and everything in the show notes so that you can
grab those and keep up with Dave and TPI. I
know the great things they're doing over there. And as always,
thanks for hanging out with me here
Speaker 1 (42:32):
On the peak off in this boun spot, and we'll
catch you on the next episode.
Go over to the golf in his bomb squad.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm your host, Chris fin and today have probably one
of my guests that I've been the most excited about,
and it's actually surprising. He's one of the co founders
of TPI and I've gotten to spend a lot of
time with his counterpart, but not quite as much time
as with this gentleman.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So if you have been living under a rock, his
name is Dave Phillips.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
He is one of the best instructors in the country
for a long time, works with so many of the
top players and honestly, if you are familiar with the
world of golf fitness, I would call him one of
the four fathers in it. And it's an honor to
have you on, Dave. If it wasn't for you and Dave,
I wouldn't be sitting here today and have my business.
And it's been so it's really tired to have you
(00:49):
on the show, and thanks for making the time to
come on.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey, you're more than walker man. I see a lot
of the things you do and I think it's great
the way you promote golf fitness and what you've built.
As we look at you as a pioneer as well.
So good job.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Just trying to pick up, you know, the breadcrumbs that
you guys have left as you've built you know, TPI.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
And yeah, I think for those of.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Us listening, you know, most of the listeners hopefully have
an idea of what TPI is and kind of what
it has become. But you know, give us a little
backstory some of the early days.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You know, it was just you and Greg. How did
it start?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
And you know, I personally love the entrepreneurial journey and
I can't hear this story enough so and I actually
never heard it from your perspective, so but love for you.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
To share it. It goes back. I mean, you know,
as an instructor, you know, I was always passionate about
learning about the golf, swinging and trying to understand it,
and a lot of that comes from playing. And you know,
when I was younger, I was a good player, played
in college and then tried to play professionally and play
some events and then started to battle with a few
niggling injuries that I got. When I was younger, used
(01:51):
to race motorcycles and do crazy stuff. You know. I
was born in England, raised in Africa and all over
the world, and had an amazing child who'd lived in
twenty seven different country. But that that brought me into
I played every sport growing up, played everything, and racing
motorcycles actually hurt my low back and I didn't really
know it. My dad was a pretty tough time and
he's like, I just put masking take one. And it
(02:14):
wasn't until I got in the competitive golf that I
really thought that, you know, there's something not quite right.
You know, every time I go after it, or when
I played four days, I'm in pain. And ended up
going on how Man MRI and finding out that I
had to the set joints that were broken and I'd
broken one of my low vertebrae and just started then
kind of in that panic mode where you're a good player,
(02:34):
you got to a certain point and you start going, well,
what can I do now? Right?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
I didn't really want to have surgery back then, yah,
And I just started learning a little bit more about
the body and understanding about fitness and just reading what
I could and studying around good players.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
You know, at the time, I worked with David Lebetter
and he had this huge stable of great players. So
this was in the early nineties. David had you know,
Faldo and Ernie and we had David Frost and Dennis
Watson and just a course incredible players, a few names. Yeah,
As a young instructor, I got to be around and watch,
and you know, I think we learned so much as
(03:12):
kids from mimicking and watching, and I learned the same way.
That was kind of how I learned. And I just
watched and I was like a fly on the wall
and every opportunity I could, and I built my base
of working with good players around then. And then I
left and obviously I started my own business. Kind of
got my break working with Tom Kite and how Sutton
(03:32):
in the late nineties early thousands, and I was at
Kay's Valley, which is an incredible golf club in Baltimore, Maryland.
I had a great learning center there, great opportunity to
teach whoever. I wanted to have players flying in and
still kind of searching. There was things that I would
do with players and I'm like, why doesn't this guy
do this? You know, I can't do it. And it
(03:54):
wasn't until I met my business partner, doctor Greg Rose,
and I met him through really by chain as it
was raining. I was reading the Washington Post and there
was this article about this guy that had opened a
the first kind of golf gym Washington. I was like,
what is this and it talked about three D biomechanics
and talked about movement screens and I was like, who
is this guy? And I called it and he picked
(04:17):
up the phone and he said this is what I do.
Why don't you come down and made bring one of
your players And I'm like, you're busy today and he
said no, it was raining, and we drove down there.
It really opened up this world that I thought when
I first met. I was like, this is what's missing
in the golf industry. We don't have a simple way
(04:38):
of understanding how the body moved and correlating it in
a way that could help anybody regardless of how they
swung it. And it also made sense as to why
there was so many different golf swings, and you know,
to come long story short, I started bringing more players
to GREG and understanding kind of more about the body
the assessment screening, and then I brought the CEO of
(05:00):
Titleists to see him, and at the time I taught
his son, which a young kid by the name of
Peter Ulin who now plays or who's a very good player,
was amazing back then. And you know, I remember taking
him through the same thing and Wally saying to me
when I was driving him back to the airport, you know,
that's the future of golf instruction. I think you spend
more time with Greg and once you guys come up
(05:22):
with an idea and I'd love to look at it.
And this is where, together, including with Wally, we kind
of came up with this concept of building the first
Olympic style training center for golf where we looked at
everything but clubs, I mean and clubs, including clubs. But
everybody was looking at golf equipment as a manufacturer. They
weren't really looking at the body buying mechanics, how people moved,
(05:45):
and how that carrelated. And he gave us the opportunity
to build the titles perform says to back in two
thousand and four.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, that's made from an entrepreeur side, finding your own
blue ocean. Yeah, but you know, I think from an
instructional standpoint, you were probably one of the first guys
is when I started getting the golf that. Yeah, I
think it was in the sun and I was probably fifteen.
I didn't start playing golf so after university in Typos
a basketball player, but really kind of I would go
to a lot of coach you know, a lot of instructors,
(06:14):
particularly I was starting the business, but in the different
lesson every single place. You know, I'm pretty sure I
showed up with the same swing and it was literally
a different lesson in every single place. I went, Oh,
you gotta do this, you gotta do or it was
this is what I teach, This is the met like,
this is what you need to do, no matter what
you were. Kind of one of the first guys that
I can remember.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Were you taught to the player? Right?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I think now if you look at you know,
the guys you work with, like John rom swing doesn't
look like other players that you work with, right, You
don't have like a method where everybody has to look
the same.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Where did that come from? It was that before you
met Greg? Was that influence through understanding the body?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
More so? Actually, honestly, you know, when I think back,
it came back to me learning golf. And I was
in Papua New Guinea at the time, small island. Oh really,
and there was a golf club called Lay Golf Club
and there was a golf professional there called Gregson. Now
he was from Australia and he was amazing. He won
everything around. There was tons of tournaments, but he was good.
(07:13):
And I never could afford golf lessons, so I used
to just watch him hip balls and I would watch
and I would pick up range balls and he would
watch me and give me a few tips. And I
used to watch him and notice that to start his
golf swing he would kick his right knee in and
then pull back, so he'd have to push with his
right knee and go back. And I did the same thing.
(07:36):
And one day he was watching me and he's like,
why are you kicking your knee and to turn back?
And I said, well, that's what you do, and he said,
but I have to do it because I have an
artificial hip and it's the only way I can get
it to turn. And so as a young kid, right away,
I was like, well, I just copied this working for me.
(07:56):
But it started probably back then. This journey of swings
don't need to look the same, and this physicality. So
what I really think back to the start of it
was there were lots of different swings. You know, growing
up in different countries, there was always you know, especially
when you saw where I came from, which was where
I was born in England, raised in Kenya. They lived Africa.
(08:19):
We didn't have driving ranges where you had golf balls.
You would go a piece of grass with your own
golf balls, hit them and go pick them up. Now
you better start to learn to hit them straight because
golf balls were expensive.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, you didn't.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
You don't want to be driving around in the weeds
because you didn't know what was wringling around in the
grass and believe in the summer the stuff that was there.
So you learned to hit them straight. And it didn't
matter how, it just mattered that you could. So they
were all these different ways to swing and move the
golf club. And you know, I think everybody has that
guy at his golf club that is the club champion
(08:55):
or the single digit player that looks weird that's still
playing great. And that was always this kind of world
to me, and that I was never want to be, Hey,
you need to be in this bucket. It was always like, well,
there's lots of buckets, so why can't we just be
an out bucket, you know, and figure out how to
play good out of out bucket.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, so then obviously it's only you and Greg team up.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Obviously with the titles performance since Tuto for you guys
are off and running. You know, that's over twenty years
at this point, I have to imagine. I mean, I've
seen the evolution as it's occurred. How how has your
approach to you know, working You know, obviously you got
a guy like John Rahm. We were just talking before
we started recording, how much you love developing players, Like
when you get a player now versus say, twenty years ago,
(09:42):
is your approach to how you you know, the first
first time you meet them and look at their swing
and trying to figure out what are we going to
work on?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Has that approach evolved for you?
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Hey, we kind of we knew what we were doing
twenty one years ago and we still do the same thing.
How has that obviously technology has been introduced, kind of
have How How have you grown and changed?
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I think there's pieces that evolve. You always evolved as
a coach. You get better. There's a lot of great
coaches out there, you know, there's a lot of great
teachers that are great technical coaches. There's coaches that are
just you know, just just great at what they do.
And you know, I definitely learned from mentors and I
have a lot around me. I respect player that people
like David Lebett is super smart, and yet he was
(10:24):
put in kind of a bucket. He had a book
called The Golf Swing that was started and you know,
people looked at him as a method teacher, but he
really wasn't. He just had this book called the Golf Swing,
which was actually a training manual, but it was kind
of a system. And I serve a lot of people
succeed with that system, and I serve many people fail
with that system. And then watching players like Wich Harmon
(10:44):
that always seemed to just be able to say the
right thing at the right time to get their players
to perform. And in many ways it looks so simple,
but when you actually sit down and talk to Butch,
he understands everything. Right. You could talk about technology whatever
you want, and people say, well, he doesn't know how
to you. He knows how to use it all. He
(11:04):
just has a very good understanding of what it takes
to get that player from point A to point B.
If I always go back to you know, I'm kind
of a historian in many ways. And if you if
you know, there's a town in Austria called Coach or Coach,
it's ko c H. They used to build coaches there,
which are carriages that transport you from one place to another.
(11:28):
And that's what a coach is. The goal take this
whatever it is, this player that comes in and sit
down and get their goals and find out what makes
them tick and then transport them from one place to
another where they want to go. And there's lots of
ways to do that. And so talking about how I've
evolved as a coach, obviously I understand technology extremely well,
(11:52):
and I've got experts around me that know it even
better than I do, like great, and yet I understand
how it correlates to each place. There's some players that say,
you know, we always ask the question or you're a
more information or less information kind of guy. Yeah, you know,
leade players will always say, well, I want the information.
I know you want it, but can you handle it?
(12:13):
A lot of them can't, and you can tell very
quickly the ones that can't, and you have got to
take them away from it because left to their devices.
If they see graphs and this disaster read the it
is a disaster because they start formulating their own ideas
of what that is and it's wrong, and they can
The amazing thing about elite level player is is they
(12:34):
can change like that. Haven was like a he was
like an etcher sketch. If you showed Haven one thing,
he couldn't go back. So you would. You'd go, Okay,
here's what and you go. He'd go, you sure, and
he'd be like, well, yeah, I'm sure, and he goes
because if you tell me to do this, I'm going
to do it and I won't be able to go back.
(12:54):
And then you're like paniced, You're like, oh no, you
can't go back to bus the work, which you know.
There's savante in many ways. And I've always said that
I think the truly elites have a flickering light. They
may have add they may have ADHD, they may be
on the spectrum. There there's something that makes them tick.
(13:14):
And I think if you look at all the goats,
the greatest of all times, they change their sport. They're
not just good, they actually change the sport. Tiger change
the sport. Serena Williams changed the sport, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan,
they change their sport because of what they do. And
I've always been intrigued with that. And then when I
(13:35):
look at a player today, I'm looking for that. I'm
looking for what are they doing that's unique. I have
a young player right now who I think could be
one of the next superstars in the world. He or
it is developing and has gone from two thousands of
the world rankings to top eighty in two years. And
you're going, just watch out, it's not maybe quite ready
(13:55):
yet that they're everything is there, and you know, that's
what excites me the most.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
And I think one I think that I've always enjoyed
and appreciated, particularly as you get you know, going through
the certifications early in my career, and was the simplicity
that you guys put to all of the complexity, because
I think we know, you know, obviously, you know, coming
from a strength and conditioning and physio background, the body
is not necessarily simple. And then anyone who's listening who
plays the game of golf knows that ain't simple.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You mentioned, you know, the great teachers, you know that
are able to you know, but for example, who could
like knows everybody knows like what to disseminate and what
not to more most importantly, what not to to give
to the to the student.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
I mean it comes from having a great understanding of
your player. In other words, you know, working with John
when I first started with him, you know, I'd spent
some time with the Spanish Girl Federation, I'd spent some
time around Sebbi Balasteros, I'd spent time watching that cult
(14:58):
ship and being a world wide person that lived in
different cultures, I had a very I went to thirteen
different high schools that you had to DOABT. That was
like a yeah, right, So I look at that culture
and go, okay, how does that person take information? And
then you have to study it, you have to understand it,
(15:19):
and then you have to break it down in the
way they accept it, not the way you think it
should be accepted. And if you're good at that, you
can be a great coach. And I think that's what
makes great coaches is they take complex situations and they
make them simple. And I've always had this three kind
of bucket theory and that when I look at a player,
(15:40):
that's coming for help. It's either obvious, it's either complex
or it's chaotic, which basically, if it's obvious right away,
I know what it is. It's like, Okay, I do
some basic physical screen. I can see how you move.
You're trying to do this, but your body can't do this,
or you know, maybe the ball positions too far back,
or your alignment so offwer it's something based. If it's
(16:01):
more complex, then I don't have all the answers, and
I have to dig deeper, and I have to either
understand maybe I need three D, maybe I need ground
force pressure. Maybe I need to understand what's going on.
Do they have a relationship issue, do they have a cadier?
What's going on? And then if it's chaotic, they're in
a down that you can't even barely talk to them.
And as a coach, that's when you need to step
(16:22):
in and take control. And that might be they've played
some bad tournaments, they're they're worried about them. You can't
get them focused, and that's where you need to step
in and be like, Okay, listen to me, here's what
we're going to do, and you have to take control.
Right And so that's how I handle players. It's occ yeah,
it's either obvious, it's complex, or it's chaotic. Which one
(16:44):
are you? And then I go to work.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's I love.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I love that the bucket system makes it so much simpler,
just for people.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
To understand it, right, A little bit of both, yeah, yeah,
oh yeah, there's going to be those gray are you
a percentage?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You're going to be maybe more one than the other,
but you may have a little bit of everything, but
the same.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's my method, right, you shouldn't have a method, of course,
you should have a method that.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Was we have the same thing physically, right, You're going
to like, is it a mobility issue, a stability now,
how you address those maybe different, But I think from
a diagnostic standpoint, you understand what somebody is and where
they're at. You got to have that, especially if you're
going to try to teach others how to do it,
like there has to be some standardized way to do it.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
It has to be. It has to be. You have
to be able to mold it right and move it
around your method and fit within the buckets. And as
a coach for coaches are listening, you should have a method.
There should be certain things you like to see in
a golf swing, but you should also understand that you
might not get there because of their movement pattern, right.
I mean, God's a perfect example. I mean he was
(17:42):
presented right away with I got a dorse at flex
your ankle, a foot that doesn't move because of you know,
a club foot. When he's a kid that's been talked
about to break his ankle, reset it. Flex's ankle. The
ankle flexion. We know, you know it relates to early extensions.
So what do you do. You have to look around
and you have to build a swing. Or he just presented.
(18:05):
The reason on why I start working with him is
he had that swing when I got it, and you know,
his coach from Spain, they worked on a short swing.
But as he got to college he got better. They
started trying to change it, and everybody was telling him
he needed to change it. And I was the one
guy that's sitting No, no, no, no, don't change it.
It fits the way you moved perfectly, right, yeah, just
(18:29):
teach you how to use it, right.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
So I'd love to dive more into the middle c
or the first year, I guess the middle of the complexity,
particularly with the you know, we're in the age of
tech right where the force plates and you got ground forces,
we can measure like literally everything.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
How do you go.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
About And I think this is a good you know,
for coaches listening to understand kind of just your thought
process of how you decide, but also for golfers listening
to know when a coach, you know, when maybe you
shouldn't be looking at some information and if your coach
and maybe it doesn't necessary really know everything, maybe is
giving you the wrong information or you're looking at the
wrong information.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
How do you know when to go you.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Know, three D kinematics versus ground forces and looking at
you know, sequencing of that versus Yeah, how do you
know which you know? Am I putting you on force plates?
Maybe forget the forces, I'm going to do three D
look at kinematics. I'm always looking at everything. How do
you kind of approach that with?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
If you we start with movement? Right, So we start
so for us, the first thing is I need to
know how you move before we do anything. I got
to know how you move because why would I tell
you something that you can't physically do? So you know,
when when a player first comes in the first thing
we do is we sit them down and too, why
are you here? How can we help right with the issue. Now,
we're still going to do everything we want to do,
(19:43):
but we're going to address the three things that they
want us to do during that as well. And basically,
depending on the level of playing, you know, if it's
elite that is struggling, or if it's a tour player
that's injured and trying to get back, or if it's
a young development tool player, who is it? Where are
they on the spectrum will depend, But we still collect
(20:06):
the data because I want to know and remember, the
data is for me. It's not for you, it's not
so the data is for me so that I never
tell you to do something you cannot do. So first
start with the physical natmen screen. I know how you move.
Then I'm going to look at forces like how do
you utilize the ground? Do you use it effectively? That's kinetics, right,
(20:26):
That's how I'm using ground force, which tells me a
lot about how you rotate, the speed in which you rotate,
and how you move. So everybody has a little bit
of lateral, a little bit of rotary, a little bit
of side beend, little bit of a vertical everything. There's
these talks and forces going on. Once I understand how
those work, then I decide, well, what else do I need?
(20:47):
So if the kinetics that the way you use the
ground is good, then the kinematics are usually pretty good.
Kinematics is three D. Those are the segments and how
they move. If the kinetics and the ground force the
way you ground it isn't that good, then I might
be like, okay, I don't have enough information. Let's get
kinematics and find out why it's not that good. The
(21:09):
physical screen might almost tell me that. Now, if the
physical screen and the kinetics the ground force is good,
but you're still hitting it bad, then I might go
to three D to go, well, why are they Their
ground force is good, but something is off? And that
would the way you release the club or just both
mis release, or how you're controlling the face. Things like
(21:29):
track made launch, monitors, full swing, those kind of things
can show me that as well. So I got to
get all the picture. Why wouldn't I if I have
the technology available to me, which we do, so we
get the picture and then it's a matter of looking
at the data and going h this is pretty easy.
Because we're taking complex, getting all the data and now
(21:49):
I'm going to obvious.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
What looks obvious out of the complex. Yeah, I'm going
to tell.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
You one thing to do that's going to help you better. Right,
and again you started, and that's that's what we do now.
Players that are listening that might struggle when they go
to a coach, the first thing you've got to know
is can you actually do what they're asking you to do,
because that would be the number one reason why you struggle.
You're struggling because they're telling you to do this. They're
(22:15):
not wrong. They might be a great coach going hey,
this is what I believe, this is what you need
to do to get better. And you're like, okay, I'm
all in. And you try and try and try and
try and try, and you are not getting better. You're
getting worse or you just can't seem to grasp it. Well,
you hit it grate on the range, but you can't
do it on the golf course. That tells me there's
something physical, there's a batrier that's stopping you and you're
(22:36):
not able to do it. And that's why I think
as coaches today with the TPI level one screen which
is so easy, it can be done in five minutes.
You should just have that as part of your arsenal.
That should be part of your two bocks. Why wouldn't
you see?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I think it's I was joke Effery, who I
was talking about it with, but basically saying when I
started part of success maybe you know, ten twelve years ago,
it was even even more so when you guys started,
Like I would go to the guys, hey, you know,
golf fitness, and they'd be like, what the heck is
golf fitness?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Right?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
There was like this like not only were you trying
to sell your service, but you're trying to you to
educate them on what the heck you were doing first.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I feel like we're at a point now.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
What I see is most people accept the fact that
they should work out for golf, or that it's good
for them, or that you know, most amateurs are doing that,
but there's such a disconnect on the right stuff versus
the wrong stuff. And I, you know I and you
know and oh John Ram or Rory r JT is
doing this exercise.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I'm just going to go do that exercise.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And to your point, they're just nobody's talking about the assessing,
you know, assessing to what you need to do and
then prescribing correctly. And it sounds like similarly in the
instructional side of things, people should expect that from a
great coach.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
I believe they should. They shouldn't today's world. There's just
it's too simple to be able to do that. If
you're really trying to be better, you need you need
to understand how you move. I mean, you know, the
fundamentals are key. Like you've got to be able to
set up to the golf ball, put your hands on
the club. And yes, there are different postures and there's
different styles, but you know, fundamental of the words fundamentum
(24:05):
comes from a Latin word that means foundation. It is
the fundamentals are the foundation of the golf swing. So
the way you set up, the way you align your body,
the way you grip the club, the way you return
it to impact very very important. You've got to start there.
If you're coaching young kids, you've got to build that base.
But don't turn them into little tour players. Yes, take
(24:26):
them athletes first. Right. If you go to every elite
level tour player, they will tell you that they played
every sport as a kid. And when parents come to
me with a twelve thirteen year old that has this
perfect little golf swing and all he does is play golf, Honestly,
I'm not interested. He's going to get destroyed by the athlete.
Because if you bring me a kid who's sixteen that's
played baseball, swung rotary sports, tennis, you know, can hit
(24:49):
it three hundred yards in the woods, I'm going to
go give me that kid and I'll turn him into
a world beat up because he knows how to create speed.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
So I have three kids, all undert and they'll come
to the range sometimes and we'll be there and then
I'll see that it's just it's always funny my three
kids and they'll be like another parent with the kid
over there and they're doing the right get to this position,
and inevitably my kids will look and they're like, Dad,
do I need to do that? Do I need to
do that? I'm like, no, no, no, see that, try to flag.
Just try to hit it past there, swing hit it farther.
(25:19):
If you hit it past the flag, I'll.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Go get you a milkshake. Like it's literally just just
go fast, go hard, Like let's have fun.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
It's the things with culture too, Like every one of
these Spanish kids that I teach, and I teach a
bunch of them because of John. Yeah, the more incredible
short games. And everybody's like, oh, that's that's Sevy. You know,
they all grew up on a Sevy. I'm like, no,
a lot of them didn't grow up on the Seve.
And in fact, they know who Sabby is. But I'll
tell you why. Culturally, if you go to a lot
of golf courses in Spain, they don't have good practice facilities,
(25:48):
but driving ranges aren't very good. They don't have goles,
but they have a chip and green and they have
a putting green and it is around the chip and
green the putting green because golf bulls are expensive and
they use their own and they chip on pot around
the green and they have little contests. They can always
find a chipping green or putting green. They can't necessiately
find a great driving range. So they over up with
(26:10):
incredible short games, right and the soil in the sand
and they and they just get creative with what they have.
And you know, it's funny to me because if I
was to build a driving range, which I would love
to do. I mean, we have an incredible one.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
I was gonna say, speaking of facilities, we have incredible
and we.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Just rebuilt it. But like if someone said to me,
here's a twenty acre piece of land in the middle
of the woods, that would be like, that would be
like the most incredible thing, because I would build a
driving range around trees and you know, I remember I
was in Kansas City once and I went to this
driving range on a farm and it was a field
(26:49):
and the guy had like a bus out there. He
had all these wrecked cars out there.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, and I was like, this.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Is the greatest driving Everybody was just trying to hit
it through the windows. Yeah, the tire, the door. What's missing?
We need? We need driving rangs with old cars and
rick telecopters out there, you.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Know, intent and target. Yeah, I mean, and it's fun, right,
but that.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Was bringing back right, well.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I think speaking of facility, So I went out there.
I guess last year I tell a story to everybody.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
When I went out we were filming Level two and
Greg was showing me around and we're walking out on
the you know, on the range, and he's showing like
all the different holes that you guys.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I mean, it's phenomenal facility. And we're walking.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I look at Greg and I go, how much AstroTurf
did you guys put down? Because this is like he's like,
He's like Chris, that's that's real. Grass I was like,
no way. I was like, bs, no way. But it
is absolutely immaculate.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
The bays.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You guys have the you know what you know, is
it open yet? It's coming open in the next year,
what's the what are the plans there?
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Under a two year rebuild? On the outside is completely done.
We've been rebuilding some of our new labs. We have
a baseball lab now so we can study rotary athletes
and we we see some MLB players come in. We
even study quarterbacks. So we've had some NFL quarterbacks come
in and we get their three D the way they
use the ground. We physically screen them. So, you know,
(28:12):
in order to get better at what you do, sometimes
I think it's important step outside of what you do
and go another world and see what they do. So
you're like a fly on the wall again, when you're
with a baseball coach that's teaching a pitcher out or
increases velocity and they're in a lab that's right by
your lab, which is Yeah. So I love the cross
you know, the cross sport aspect because it makes me
(28:34):
better as a coach, and I can also see how
quick other coaches use technology. So I'm learning on both
sides constantly. Yeah, and that helps us build our education
program and rebuild. We're currently building a couple other three
D labs right now that are under construction. We've got
some more buildings to do, a new gym to build.
We're building a recovery center that will have you know,
(28:57):
all the stuff that you need. And you know why not,
I mean, we have the ability to do it. The
best players are utilizing it either at their home, so
when they come to us, I want to have whatever
they have access to at our facility, and we will
have that. So it's probably about another year away from
fully being done. We're actually in the midst of building
(29:17):
a two hundred c classroom right now, not only for
our education, but we will do some outside education and
some virtual education from there as well.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Will that be open for amateurs to come out and
do kind of the full experience of ball fitting, cloud fitting.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Come back, I mean right now it's been because we
were so inundated. You know, Titleist has hundreds of tour
players from around the world, so you know, Greg and
i schedule is pretty much book We only see two
players a day, so you know, it's four hours a
day with a player. It's not like you've got ten
lessons a day. Yeah, but we wind up for four
hours and that's what it takes when you're when you're
(29:53):
really looking at everything, you want to leave no stone unturned.
And so right now o account is pretty booked with
ELITD and up and coming next gen players. But we
will have a calendar probably in about another two or
three months that will have dates that people could book
and spend some time with us and some of the
other guys we're training as well.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
So anyone listening would strongly encourage you that was like
heaven on Earth, the especially in that area, to have
that much grass and space, like it's pretty impressive. But
what about the obviously we were both out at the
PGA show. Yeah, you know, you're at the forefront of
seeing the technology and the evolution of stuff that's coming.
What do you see the the next five ten years
(30:34):
of golf. There's obviously all this talk about AI single
camera capture, it's this race to figure out who can
do that first.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
You know, how do you see the game?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think in the last five years, the technology we're
just talking about ground forces and force plates developing. The
skill of speed to me has become very I don't
want to say easy, but simple in terms of, you know,
evaluating where the gap is. And I think that's why
we're obviously definitely a contributing factor to why we're seeing
so much speed. I'm sure you're seeing it in your
the younger players you're developing. There's it's incredible how fast
these kids are swaying. What do you see going forward
(31:06):
the next five to ten years, kind of any technology
or things that you're kind of most excited about.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I know you're definitely a big tech guy.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I mean, yeah, we are. I mean, obviously, I think
the hotbed around AI is this, you know, aspect of
being able to get information quite quickly using just a
single camera like a phone or something. And there's a
couple of three D apps out there right now, but
do a great job. I think in many cases I
still look at technology as you know, the accuracy level
(31:38):
needs to be at a point that is applicable. Right,
So for elite level, I need very small margins because
if I tell them one thing that's wrong. You know,
when you think about my fingers this far apart, that's
a couple of millimeters. If you relate that to elite
level player with the club face and the golf ball,
that can mean the difference between missing or green missing
(31:59):
a fairway that much. Right. So when people talk about
accuracy and go, oh, well that's you know, you're you're
you want too much accuracy, I'm like, no, no, you don't
understand who I'm working with. Right, these are the best.
They missed the center of the cop face by millimeters,
not by half an inch, right, Right, there's no marks
nor t marks out on the tub with John Moutt. Right,
(32:20):
everything is in the middle of the face. It's how
far from the middle it's millimeters. So to me, accuracy
needs to be prominent when I'm looking at elite. Now
for everybody else, I think that numbers and things like that,
you don't even know what you're looking for. So you
need simplicity in the numbers. And what I mean by
(32:40):
that is if you're working on stopping swaying, moving left
to right. You need something to set the limit and go, oh,
you didn't do it, or you did.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Beep at you yet that was wrong? Nope, less more.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah. The thing I think technology misses and what I
would like to see how is we've all played golf
and we've hit terrible shots and you get up on
the next tea box and you just rip it, and
you might rip it for three holes and then you
use it. You have no idea why right, and you
(33:16):
think I need to work harder. I'm close, I'm there.
But what if we could measure why what if we
could go back after the round and go, you know,
on those three holes, this spore you did, and I
know on the rest around this one you did, and
chunk that chip on six, this is what you did.
And when you hit it great on seven, this is
what you did. Why is that? Or how good is
(33:38):
everybody on their second ball opposed that first ball if
they put Like, if I could just measure en course situations.
We spend so much time measuring things on a driving arrangement,
no consequence, and I'm like, that's not real.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That was like, that's the analogia.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
One of the things that blew my mind when I
came started playing golf and I fell in love from basketball,
was like, I feel like I'm just shooting free throws
all day and then expecting to go out and dominate
a game like look, and I don't. So I literally
I don't spend much time with it. I asked the
we'll go on the course to play just it's it's
never made sense to me.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I play is to spend way more time on the
golf course than I do. Having them practice. Yeah, we
practice after we warm up, and then we go play
and there's certain parameters and there maybe games we play,
and then after the round, if things aren't working, we
go and look at specifics after the round. Right, here's
what we need to work on for twenty minutes, not
for two hours, not for eight hours. That's ridiculous. And yet,
(34:36):
you know, I think there's this misnomer that the greatest
in the world they just work harder than everybody else. Well,
you could work hard as sitting still with your eyes closed,
you can visualize harder than anybody else's sleep. You can
you know, there are so many things you can do
that maybe they did that they didn't tell you. And
now I still think some of the really best don't
tell you everything anyway. No matter what book is written,
(34:58):
we still don't really know. Logan seeks right. Yeah, there's
like ten books and it's been how many years, but
nobody really knows. So I just think, you know, the
danger around technology is just that is there's putting. There's
more putting coaches today than anything. There's more putting technology
today than anything, but most of it is on a
flat surface, on a straight pot, telling you as the
(35:20):
face open and closed, your path should be X and y.
I let you get one straight put around from inside
three feet. I mean, accidentally, the putts I hit have
a curve to them. Yeah, exactly, say that on the
left to right and the right to left. I don't
do something different because the wind's blowing more this way
(35:41):
that way into me across the greens. You know't you
think the stint meat is the same on every green.
Of course, the thought is moving at different points on
the golf course every green. No matter how much they
try and say it's the same, it's not. So I
just think we're losing some of the point around it.
(36:03):
And I will say one thing, We're always going to
use technology we're always going to look, We're always going
to be interested in it because it's the world we
live in today. I'm not saying it's bad, but well,
I want one thing that technology can't take away from
great coaching is instinct. The best coaches have great instinct.
They know what to say, when to say it at
(36:24):
the right time. And that's that's technology can never do that. Yeah,
we'll be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, and highly one of the things you said, I
think he was actually was very profound to that. I
actual make sure it doesn't get missed.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
The idea of work that everybody thinks that the best
players in our just work harder. I think a lot
of people that I've noticed, I'm curious if you've seen
the same thing, they have a misunderstanding of the definition
of work and that it's the time times, the leverage.
And I think a lot of amateurs have very low leverage,
and so they think, hey, if John Rahm's going to
practice for two hours on this, I'm going to practice
(36:56):
two hours.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I'm going to practice two or three hours.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
They don't realize that he's using like a leverage that's
you know, miles long relative to do an amateur's using
like a pencil, right, And I think that is a
big misnumber. Is that a lot of amateurs have, is they?
I mean I see it even with employees, right, they're like,
oh I worked eight hours?
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Cool? Did you Well?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
I have another guy who got more done in two
hours than you did in eight hours, because they are
more leveraged. And I think that's a big part of
when we talk about game improvement and even technology to
your point of like using the correct numbers, the accuracy,
leveraging technology in the right way to get the most
out of it, I think those are that's a huge
element to improve it.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
You're sir Ryan, and you know the word you might
use there that correlates with technology is impulse. Right. It's
a pressure world. We talk about impulse, and what that
means is that the most powerful players are applying force
for a much longer amount of time. You might actually
provide a greater spike or a greater amount of force
(37:57):
for a short amount of time than them, yet they
hit it further than you because they're applying force over
a longer amount of time. It's the same thing the
goats are applying learning over an amount of time there's
twenty four hours in a day you can be learning
while you're sleeping. We proved that, right if you watch
a video. I mean there's a neuroscientist that talks about
(38:19):
this that I've studied in San Diego, and that is,
if you watch a golf swing at night, like before
you go to bed at night, just over and over
and over again, right, and then you turn the lights
off and black everything out. Your brain is searching for
that golf swing and it will play it while you're
sleeping in your brain. How oftimes if you wanted to
(38:41):
learn something and you read a book or something and
maybe it's wor keeps you up late night, Yeah, but
you might read something late at night or study something
at ten o'clock at night, and in the morning you've
got it. You went to sleep right hours you woke up. Well,
your brain was working while you was sleeping. So I
think to your point, this work is totally misused. Today
(39:02):
everybody's like, oh, did you put in a good day's work?
Did you know? You know? What is that?
Speaker 1 (39:07):
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I mean, I don't think I have a stop. I mean,
it doesn't matter what's a weekend, a holiday, there's something
that triggers me, whether it's a thing on TV and
I start thinking about it or whatever. So maybe my
maybe it doesn't look like I'm working eight hours, but
over the course of a week, I might work way
more than everybody else.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Right, yeah, well yeah, I think it's the focus, and
I think it's I think number one, we focus on
outputs and results instead of the inputs, right, And I
think if we if we can focus on the inputs
and then also you know, the work of like it's
not just time or effort.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I say, some of my kids say, that's great that
you tried, but did you try it the right thing?
And what did we learn?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
And like, then let's continue to focus that we're always
moving on a vector and.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
There, yes, definitely, es I think that's a.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Skill that that you and all the top people in
every any industry.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's a skill that has learned that that leverage, focus
and inputs are on the same vector and not scatterbrain,
which we see it with golfers all the time. I'm
gona get a driver and I'm gonna I'm gonna or
my putting here, I'm gonna They have no idea, They
go to range. I see guys at my club they
bang balls for two hours a day and their their
handicap goes up after it's like what that?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
And then and then they're like dumbfounded or baffled this
to why.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
But it's amazing is your get players that don't play
for two weeks and they have no expectation. They stop
up on the first tea and they get it. Great.
Mm hmm, I'm played for two weeks. I'm toast the club.
My god, I understand it. And then all of a
sudden they start thinking about what they're doing and they play.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Tell the mind is a terrible thing.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
It can be an amazing thing, but it also can
can mesticly do in a in a in a way
that's not enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
But but Dave, I got thank you so much. I
know you're busy.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I want to thank you so much for taking the
time to jump on with me today. And you know,
just for people who want to connect follow everything that
you and TPI are doing, what's what's the best place
for them to do that?
Speaker 3 (40:52):
TPI on my TPI dot com or the TPI YouTube
channel is probably where you can see the most content
that we put out. We're putting out a lot more.
We're trying to film every player that comes in now
and then we edit that and try and create.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I've seen some of those resell ones have been amazing,
they've been so so cool.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Really in depth. We have a great film crew and
we really try and make people understand all the pieces
to the puzzle to get better. And yeah, I mean
there's so many great TPI certified guys out there like
yourself that if you're looking to get physically screened, go
to MYTPI dot com, put in your zip code to
find an expert. Find somebody in your local area that
(41:30):
can take you through a physical screen. It can be
a medical professional, Finnis professional golf professional, but try and
find somebody that just give you an idea of how
you're moving, and that will give you so much information.
If you just did nothing but understand how you move,
you would realize why you struggle with certain things in
your girlf swing and why it's difficult for you to
get better. And with the right coach, you can either
(41:51):
teach around the physical limitation. There's lots of coaches that
do that every day and are very successful. And just
so you know, when we do this physical screen. Few
people pass. Even the best in the world have issues.
They just don't let them to affect their ability to perform.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, well I always joke ever, you know, talk about
the screen or whatever, and they say, well, well I
bet I could pass.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
So sure if you're if you're one of the like
six percent that can pass every single thing.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah, love to see it. If you're the Unicorn, I
would love good for you. So thanks again. Dave can't
thank you enough for coming on and everyone listening.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
We'll put every all the contexts and all the links
and everything in the show notes so that you can
grab those and keep up with Dave and TPI. I
know the great things they're doing over there. And as always,
thanks for hanging out with me here
Speaker 1 (42:32):
On the peak off in this boun spot, and we'll
catch you on the next episode.
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