June 19, 2025 • 56 mins
Happy Juneteenth! As we know, freedom doesn’t come freely. Today, we celebrate athletes who put it all on the line and sacrificed in the struggle for equality and justice for all. We have a very special guest, Mr. Craig Hodges, with us to not only describe how he was blackballed by the league in the early ‘90’s for taking a righteous stand, but more importantly talk about the heroic figures throughout his lifetime who molded and shaped him to be courageous of spirit and of sound mind and conscience. You won’t want to miss some of these never told before stories that serve to inform, educate, and inspire! Oh, and tune in to find out who REALLY taught the Bulls the triangle offense…
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It wasn't like anybody was surprised when I gave the
president of letter. None of my teammates weren't none of them,
none of them. But at the same time, only one
of my teammates, and I'm gonna say his name, Horace Grant,
is the only person that has approached me. And he
approached me. He called me about just like five years ago. Man.
He called me in Chicago and he's like, man, you
(00:20):
and shop. I was like, yeah, man, I'm here. He's like, man,
I want to take you to dinner. I was like,
all right, cool. So he told me what a meeting
and I met him and it was him and the son,
and he's like, man, I wanted my son to be here,
and I wanted to apologize to you for leaving you
out there by yourself. Man, we knew what you were doing.
(00:40):
We knew you wasn't no radical, crazy brother. We knew
that it was about you being born and raised in Chicago.
And we went in the championship in Chicago, and you're
feeling more about us winning this thing than anybody. So
you know, I grew up a Bulls fan where we
weren't winning nothing. It was Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Live,
Tom Bolwinkle, But it was basketball, you know. So for
(01:05):
me it was that it was that part that that
kept me inspired. But also Jim Man, just to know that, hey,
this road that we own, man, this road that you're on,
were all spreading this knowledge and information. Man, it ain't
no paying that, you know what I'm saying. The payers,
the payers, the wealth and the relationship that we build
from doing this and knowing that, hey man, we we're
(01:25):
on the right side of history. We're on the right
side of defensive this one. This is not a transactional thing.
This is transitional, you know. And I think that's one
of the things that had happened to us, is especially
as black man, we become so transactional that I got
to get a quick hit. I gotta get it, hey man,
how can I make Come on, man, we can't be
transactional for ninety years, brother, got We gotta be able
(01:45):
to build something that's transitional for our children and our women.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Welcome back to another episode of Grace of Their Era.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
What's up? Dot Well? Trade back with another one? Got
a good one today?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Oh yeah, man, we got we got a legend in
the building.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
For real, real legend, one of the real shooters in
the league for one of the best to ever do
it on the floor, but also somebody who made lasting
impact off the floor. So I'm following his footsteps a
lot of ways on the floor, trying to win some
championships like him too.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yes, absolutely, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. Craig Hodges.
We're honored to have a true basketball legend and fearless advocate.
A two time champion with the Chicago Bulls, NBA, three
times three point Contest champion, and led the league in
three point percentage three times sinking threes alongside Michael Jordan
in the early nineteen nineties. But his legacy goes beyond
(02:42):
the court. Known for his n wavering commitment to social justice,
Craig made headlines when he boldly called for action on
racial and economic inequality, even delivering a powerful letter to
the White House in nineteen ninety two. His courage speaks
truth to power, despite the personal costs, continue to aspire.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Mister Hodgs brother. I appreciate that, uh, that little segment
you put it in right there. First of all, so
thankful to Almighty God for giving us an opportunity to
come across the airways. Man, to share with your young brothers.
And you know, I remember Seth when we were in
the D League and I was in New York doing
some stuff up there, and you know, to see you
know where you come brother, is great. And once again,
(03:26):
you know, congratulations on your three point percentage title this year.
And keep it moving, man.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Like I said, stay healthy, stay healthy, stay healthy.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
That's the key. That's the key. I mean, that's probably
the most important thing. It means the age.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Keep trying to do it, trying like congratulating me on
that three point percentage title. I mean, you got to
take pridect that type of stuff. I know you do
shooting basketball.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And the crazy part is, you know, and and that's
the that's the cool part of life is at this
point in your career, you can truly say that you
the best of doing it during this season, you know,
and to be able to build on that, and you know,
I know the level of confidence that it gives you
once you're able to do it among your peers and
they have to achnowledge it, you know, So just keep
(04:13):
on doing what you're doing. Man, Like I said, keep
doing what you're doing and tell you that and family,
I said, what's happening to you?
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yea, all right, this is a special episode. This airs
on June tenth, so happy June tenth to everyone listening,
you know. Overall, So we want to set the stage
like we always do on this show and go through criteria.
So this one is a special episode. So we're going
to go through the criteria of activism and for there,
(04:40):
we'll start off with significant social or political advocacy, the
use of platform, the personal sacrifice or risk, the lasting impact,
the relevance to era, and the diversity of causes and sports. So,
mister Hodges, we want to go through a couple activists
and see how they why, what they meant to you
(05:01):
before you know your own personal activism, but also how
important they were not only to the culture but to
you know their calls. So the first person we actually
wanted to bring up was Kareem aut du Jabbar. He
boycotted the nineteen sixty eight Olympics to protest the US
treatment of African Americans and champion racial equality. How was
(05:23):
Kareem abdu Jabbar to his activism.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
You know. And for me, I've been blessed brothers to
be around so many people who were images in my household.
So at that point in time, it was lieue El Sindor,
you know what I'm saying. And for me, it was
to see the difference he made in the game coming
from high school to college to where they had to
change the game just so he would he wouldn't dominate
(05:47):
to that point, you know, and to see him change
his name and the maturity that he showed, and as
far as his knowledge and overstanding of where we came
from and the plot, like we speak about the platform
that he had, and during that time, it was not
only you know, not only Kareem, but it was other
players in the league that were also changing their names
and studying the culture. And it had impact on us,
(06:10):
you know, similar to Muhammad, you know a least. So
when we look at those things and for us, for
me especially, it was impactful because it was part of
conversations around my dinner table when I was growing up.
You know that it was certain athletes and entertainers that
my family said, look at that, you know what I'm saying,
(06:31):
and then they would show you the opposite side of
that of those who weren't standing up for what they
thought or could stand up for. So yeah, Kareem was,
you know, very instrumental in my development as far as
you know, you can think about things and you know,
you can think about where you want to go. But
when I was growing up, and you know, I was
born in nineteen sixty, so I grew up in that
(06:53):
era of UCLA winning championships and I'm in Chicago going
to winners and I'm looking at Palm Tree in short
sleeve shirts and I'm like, I want to go out
West to play. But Kareem had a big impact in that,
you know, and what he did early in his career
and the unders seeing when he got to Milwaukee with
Oscar Robertson, who was another one of my you know,
one of the brothers that was you know, instrumental in
(07:16):
my development even though it was far away, you know.
So yeah, Kareem was. Kareem is still critical, man, I think,
and that's the part where we have to continue to
honor those who definitely laid who helped lay the foundation
of where we stand today.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, that's dope, because I was going to ask, I mean,
you kind of answered what I was going to ask
you next. But like I mean, growing up in this
a day and age, you look at a lot of
the kids who look up to the certain athletes who
I mean want to be known for that competitiveness.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
How good they are on the floor, I mean tackle
was MJ.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No question, great, they own right, but they not really
They're not let that trade this and off the floor
into other things outside of the sport, you know what
I'm saying. So you kind of show how where your
mind was form as far as that yourdentitator in your household.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And you know the crazy part of the crazy part
that you say that I wrote my book in twenty seventeen,
and a bunch of my homeboys, a bunch of friends
I grew up with, they saw the positions that I took.
But I tell people, you know, you never know what's
in somebody's household. You know, as friends, we'd go up
to the door, Hey miss I just's Craig here, and
you come out, But you don't know what's going on
day to day, what's going on around the dinner table,
(08:22):
you know. And a big factor in me writing a
letter to President Bush was you know, my mom was
the secretary for the Civil Rights Organization when I was
growing up, and my uncles and my granddad were the
sports part of things. But tell people all the time,
I learned to read and write before I could ribble
the basketball. So it was one of those things where
(08:43):
the thinking part of it was, you know, the most
critical part of it in my household. And that you know,
my granddad would always tell me, look at the sports page.
Where does it appear at the back of the newspaper.
So make sure if you want to really affect people's lives,
try to get on that front page.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
The next man I'm bringing up you mentioned he was
your goat. He's the NBA's first black superstar. Mister Bill
Russell was a vocal civil rights advocate, participated in nineteen
sixty three March on Washington, and supported all these draft refusals.
He also led the Celtics boycott of an exhibition game
in nineteen sixty one to protest racial discrimination. Can you
(09:21):
tell us a little bit more about your connection with
mister Bill Russell?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Man? You know when you look at and you know
when I look at when we have this whole conversation
about goat it's really Muhammad Ali, you know, because he
coined the term and everything rolls off of that. But
when we talk about Seth will tell you, yeah, we
can win three point titles, we can win three point
percentage awards, but it's all about winning championship. Man. And
(09:44):
when we look at you know, I see in this
generation oftentimes where they say, well, Bill Russell and they
weren't playing against anybody. Hey, man, we put in the
game where the game is, you know, and when we
look at it from that manner, nobody won the way
that brother won, Man. And not only that, he was
an example of how to go out, how to go
about playing the game, how to be an inspirational teammate,
(10:08):
how to make people better around you. But and you know,
dare to say one of the greatest cent as far
as being able to balance that type rope between consciousness
and your career, and to be able to do it
in a manner that was honorable. To be able to
do it as a gentleman, and to be able to
do it with patience, you know. And the patient's parts
(10:29):
comes when you're standing up on behalf of your people
and probably ninety to ninety five percent of our people
oftentimes don't realize it and it's not you know, and
you're not doing it for that, but you're doing it
on behalf of them. So you know, I know that
Bill put up with a lot man, you know, and
studying his career and then having a chance to you know,
(10:51):
Lord bless me to have a chance to speak to
him and talk to him. So those type of things, man,
they leave an imprint on you. And to be able
to be at the age you are now and to
be able to be in the position of not I
don't I don't like the term leadership, but I like
the term of being in the term of being able
to be a teacher at some point in time, being
(11:12):
able to share information about experiences more than anything else.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, my short time talking to him before he passed,
met him a couple of times. He was always always
he had that light to him, but he was always
spread knowledge man.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
No question stories or stories.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
No doubt. And like the thing I love about him was,
you know, he could go from being steal and then
he'll breakout into that laugh. That was totally Bill Russell.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, So I mean they him being the first I
don't know if he was the first maybe, but like
definitely the first black player coach at the same.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Time, absolutely shows the respect people half for him.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, and then to do it in Boston.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Exactly, That's what I say.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yep, yep, absolutely Uh this next player he played in
the same area as you. My mood, I'll do it
or the Denver Dugget sparked controversy in nineteen ninety six
by refusing to stand for the national anthem, citing his
Muslim faith and objections to the US policies and as oppressive.
He was suspended for one game, and then he had
faced intense backlash, ended up being traded was out of
(12:15):
the league by twenty nine despite strong stats his protests
and precursor to you know, obviously everybody mentions in current
day Colin Kaepernick, but beforehand, you know, my move was.
You know, I got a chance to see the documentary.
I was very young when he was you know, protesting
during the time, but also watching us well, I was
(12:37):
born in the eighties. But yeah, like the impact that
he had, I think maybe, you know, if it was
a different era and current area overly supported you know
what I mean, both of you guys.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
You know, for me, what happened to me in my career.
I get that. But when I think about Macmoo, for me,
I say, you know, similar to your brother's steph before
his time from thumb the standpoint, from the standpoint of
the numbers that he could get in bunches, and to
(13:12):
do it against the defense that he was doing it against.
It was I wanted to see how much how many
numbers he could have put up during his run, because
nobody stayed in better shape than my proof. And to
you know, I had a chance to the first time
we ever met was at the Big Three in Chicago,
and it was like literally a reunion between us from
(13:36):
the standpoint of us having admiration from afar from one
another in the positions that we took. But for me
to see his background and his educational maturity and where
he came from and having turets and just you know,
regurgitating school plans as opposed to really overstanding what he
was reading, and to see how how much of a
(13:57):
depth student he is now to just knowledge and information. Man.
It serves to show that you know, basketball is one thing,
but the humanity of this thing man is the overriding principle.
Man and to see him study the way he studies,
to see him share his information with people, and to see,
you know, just the light that he is right now
(14:18):
for you know, not just black people, brown people, even Muslims.
He's a light for a lot of people. Man. And
you know, I like I said, I tell that brother,
I say, Man, I would have loved to see you
for another seven years and what you could have done
number wise, because you know, and it's no distant John Stockton,
but the numbers that I saw him do, John Stockton
(14:38):
at fifty five or something like that, and it wasn't
It wasn't like you know. And the cool part about
my mood is that it's not like him trying to
be greedy. It's about what's in front of him. He'll
passed the ball, But why passed it when I know
I can knock.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
This down, treat me if I'm wrong, like he's.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Nobody else played like him when he played his conviction,
his confidence that they saw off the floor was how
he played on the floor.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
It was it was incredible, you know. When and then
when in the crazy party is when I went to
the Big Three to watch him. I had a chance
to see him in practice when he was in practice
mode and to see him for probably about twenty or
thirty minutes just slily working on his handles, and what
impressed me the most was how tight his spin moves were,
(15:22):
that he could actually come out of the spin move
and be right into his jay And I was like, man,
that's that's some cold practice habits right there.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
For our listeners who are meeting you for the first
time through this episode, what are for one, could you
take us back to his nineteen ninety two correct what
actually happened during that time? And then also what are
some of the narratives that you would like to clean
up if there was because there's obviously a conversation and
(15:55):
it took for me to read a couple of times,
you know what I mean about it to like like, oh,
I thought something was different out of hearsay, you get
what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Because you did say like I get what happened to me,
which I mean some people don't, but.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You know, and you know the biggest part for me,
once again, like I said, was I was put on
this when I was a baby man. And you know,
sometimes as you're going through life, you you know, for me,
my Granddaddy told me when I was six years old
that the quickest way to the big show was to
be a catcher. So I caught from the time I
was six years old until I was fifteen. And at
(16:32):
the same time basketball was developing because my uncle was
the number one junior college scorer in nineteen sixty three,
so that's who taught me out of hoop. So I
had I had a mindset of, you know, wanting to
be a pro early, learning how to do the drill
work necessary. But at the same time, I had this
overriding thing that hey man, nobody, you know you only
(16:55):
as uh, you only can leverage yourself as the least
of your people. And that was you know in me.
So when I look at when we won, you know,
I was studying, I had. I was blessed to go
to a long beach stay with text winner, who's the
you know, the designer of the triangle to a degree,
and at the same time I had a chance to
(17:17):
study Black studies and for four years I was at
you know, probably the premier Black studies program in the nation.
So we had great instruction and I was I was
taught the importance of being able to manage what you're
doing in this society and try to mine it and
bring it back home and develop something from that. So
(17:39):
you know, the night before we won our championship June
of nineteen ninety one, and I warned Dashiki's the entire
playoff series because the year before Detroit that kicked our
ass so bad. I said, you know what, we need
some ancestral heart. So the next season, I said, I'm
gonna wear Dashiki's every playoff game, so you know, us
(18:02):
being ritualistic as athletes, I wore the first one we won,
and now was everybody in an organization, Ah, you got
another Dashiki? Man, I got enough of these three sixty five, man,
so let's go. That ain't the issue. Let's go. So
once we won our championship, assistant Chicago made me a
white Dashiki to go to the White House. I have
only planned to wear Dashiki to the White House. Had
(18:22):
we went in June, it would have never been a letter.
But we didn't go into October first. So the night
before we went, me and my homeboy were playing ping
pong and it hits me, Man, sit your ass down
to write this letter because you had been doing this
your whole life. You know, your mom taught you to
write to the senators, to you know, to different school
(18:43):
boards and all of that. And I've been writing letters
to people with power all my life. So I sat
down that night and wrote the letter. And the next
day we get to the White House and I tell,
you know, I tell our press guy that I got
a letter for the President. He tells another guy, and
they said, I can't hand anything to the president because
it's against security or whatever. So I gave it to
the Press secretary. And when I had a chance to
(19:04):
meet Bush, I told everybody he was cool as a
fan of me, you know what I'm saying. I told him, yeah,
I wrote you a letter, and he kind of took
him aback, but he said, yeah, I'll make sure I
read it or whatever. But you know, to my knowledge,
I never got any response back. So when we look
at going forward, it's a whole lot of Like I
tell people, you know, the narrative that was created was
(19:26):
Craig Hodg just went to the White House, he wore dashiki,
and he delivered President Bush a letter. Now, what was
going on during that time, the Iraqi War and all
of that type of Jobe so it was considered that
me being dressed like this crazy Muslim, that I must
be I must have delivered a letter that was, you know,
(19:46):
opposite of what was politically expedient. But anyone that read
it would see that it wasn't nothing like that. That
it was about poor people, it was about homeless people,
it was about Native Americans. And I considered I brought
us in last and as far as the realization that
within the context of where we stand in America from
(20:08):
the oppression side of it, we are a carbon. We
are the example. So we undergird all the civil rights movements,
all the human rights movements, that's all been on us.
So when I looked at that, I said, there's no
way I could go to the White House without doing
something that my mom and the freedom fighters who wouldn't
(20:30):
get a chance to come here, you know. So that
was that's what that was about. And then to be
ostracized after that, you know, at that point in time,
I was leading, I led the league, I guess I
won three point three three point titles in a row
and two world championships at that time, and I couldn't
get an agent to represent me. My union told me
that I needed to find an agent that a team
(20:52):
owed a favor so they would know that I'm not
a bad guy. And at that time, Charlie Grantham was
our executive director, and I said, Charlie, what did I
do that made me a bad guy? I was player
rep as a rookie. I was player rep for all
four teams that I played for for a ten year
period of time. I was never fined. I was never
(21:13):
laid for a bus, I never missed a plane. What
is considered bad? You know what I'm saying. So when
we look at my body of work and as a
thirty two year old and the highest earning potential in
my career, I was unrestricted free agent, you know they
would have had to. I think the next offic sheet
had to be six hundred percent more than I made
(21:34):
the year before. So the numbers themselves would have been
enough to create generational wealth. That's the part that you know,
when we look at when we look at the entirety
of this thing. When I'm John Carlos, who's who's one
of my mentors, you know, to have the chance to
talk to him, and him explained it to me from
a standpoint that when you look at what happened in
(21:55):
nineteen sixty eight. There was a movement that they were
swept up into. When we look at Colin Kaepernick, he
would swept up into a movement. When Make Mood and
myself were out there, it wasn't no movement. Things were static,
you know what I'm saying. So and especially now with
where you guys are now, and that's why applaud what
(22:15):
you're doing, is that you're able to use these platforms
in a manner to teach as well as inspiring man
and let people understand that it's a different you know
what we say, it's two sides to the coin. But
then you know, it's a little band that goes around,
so it's a it's a side that we don't often see.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Yeh, we're privileged, I mean, because I mean a lot
of this is y'all doing. Who led the way, but
y'all needed y'all really need a media to tell your story, right,
because you couldn't teach, You can't get on you can't
get on Twitter and get your mess crazy and you stop.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
One of the things that I heard Jim Brown say
when I was younger, and I didn't really realize he
was like, yeah, when he's like the media and the
teams they're together. And I didn't understand that until I
understand the reality that if you, as a media person
make a bad story on that team, how much more
opportunity you're gonna get to talk to these players? You
(23:09):
know what I'm saying. So it's a it's a certain
amount of you know, independence that this brings about that
wasn't there before.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
And they players, I mean players, life chief no matter
who you are. Yeah, it's gonna end one day, and
these teams.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Gonna keep rolling.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
So you got that statey and members thinking about the
long term.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
And I call it how much shelf life you got?
You got so much, man, you only got so much
shelf life. And Lord Willing, Lord Willing with the bread
that that's being put out now that not only are
you creating generational wealth, but you're also creating opportunities for
people less fortunate than you that you know they need,
(23:48):
they need some of the you know, the creativity that
you guys have and are able to utilize. Now, you know,
you we had things, you know, I think about the
Late Junior Bridge when Lord rest is soul and I'm
having the creativity to be able to go into uh
Wendy's and be able to do what he did there.
And you know, that's that's a great example, you know,
(24:09):
but not all of us had that type of in row.
And I hope that one of the things that we
can do as a group of brothers and former players
is to be able to make that exit route a
little smoother for brothers to be able to go into
you know now. And one of the things that I'm
looking at and what I'm working on is teaching this
next generation of basketball player and student athletes about what
(24:31):
is your role and responsibility when you come to the gym?
You know, are you on top of your books? Are
you ready to put your thinking cap on and listen
as opposed to worrying about how many follows you got
and if your phone is ringing? So, you know, I
think we have a great opportunity going forward, especially now
that the you know, the resources. We can't really holler
(24:51):
that we don't have resources no more. We have them.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
But that's why and I owe this stuff kind of
make me nervous though you talk about your.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Education and college and pushing you in the direction you
want to go off the floor and continue to learn.
Like me, I learned a lot in college and I
was forced to go to class. You know what I'm
it's not They're not really gonna be forced to go
to class. I'm not gonna be forced to stumble in
some knowledge that they might not have had because they
getting paid.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, it's a lack of financial literacy. And then also,
you know, anything can happen on court. And then now
it's kind of like, you know, you either have to
thought or you know what I mean, you have to
figure out the next thing. Stay with us when we
come back. You're gonna find out who actually take Michael Jordan.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Nabules to try off.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I wanted to chime in a little bit and talk
about post, you know, the black Ball situation right throughout
the years. Now you're published author, h.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
What's the title of the book?
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I'm sorry, lung shot struggles and trying.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So I got to make sure I picked that up
as well, so I can, you know, check that out.
But prior to getting to, you know, writing this book,
you were coaching as well. What you know with with
the information now in current day and writing this book,
how did you get to that point of saying Hey,
you know what, although this all happened to me, I'm
going to put my word to my knowledge and the
(26:36):
teachings in the book for others.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
For me, like I said, i've been I love to write.
So I probably wrote all kind of essays and articles
and self concerning you know, social issues concerning our people,
and I should have been published while I was playing.
But once again, and when I look at the difference
(27:02):
in thought process, all right, I think about how serious
I was about making sure I was on top of
my game, probably because of the fact that I came
in at forty thousand dollars on a make good contract,
all right. My second year was forty five thousands, My
(27:22):
next year was fifty five thousand. I didn't make a
hundred thousand dollars to my fifth year in the league,
all right. So for me, and then when I look
at my boy MJ. Who would go out and play
thirty six holds golf before here he go coming home.
You know what I'm saying, a total different, relaxed mindset
to it. But at the same time, for me, it
(27:43):
was one of those things that, you know, the knowledge
and information that I had, I realized that the impact
that that could have. So for me, it wasn't even
a it wasn't even choice of the matter that I
got this himpoint I got to share it. Now the
ramifications of sharing it then becomes another thing that Okay,
I know, I'm thirty two years of age. I can't
(28:05):
I can't get an agent. But in the summer league,
I'm getting thirty five, you know what I'm saying against
brothers in the league. But at the same time, the
way I'm playing in the summer I'm just you know,
I ain't even later for a past you know what
I'm saying. But when I'm playing within this triangle, I
understand that this is the reality of how we're going
to play to win championship. So it's a different it's
(28:26):
a different reality. But also coming off of that the
reality you self to tell you from a standpoint of
you know, you will hear we're here ownership and management
and league officials say this is this is our league
and our players, and that this is a family, all right.
(28:47):
But now when it becomes your shelf life is short.
How much of the family are you when you stand
on a certain position that the majority of your family
is under these conditions that you standing on and you
bringing it to a multi mega corporations to say, yo,
can we do a little bit of something over here
(29:10):
without it being oh well, so. The thing that I
heard from ninety two to ninety seven when I sued
the league was I don't know if you want Craig
Hodges in your locker room because he's a locker room
lawyer and he might not be good to be around
your players. And then I'm saying, come on, you know
(29:32):
these these And then you hear another thing where they say, well,
it's defense. And then you see an article from Phil
Jackson say ain't nobody playing defense? No one body? Stanthan
tell you ain't no one body playing defense.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Man.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
If you ain't playing five men defensively, you ain't winning jack.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Man.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Come on, you know. And that's what that's one of
the things where and that's one of some of the
drama that my boy Pi this happened now with him Jay,
is that you know the reality that you didn't do
this by yourself, brotherhood, But when you go in and
you make one of the last dances created, it seems
as though that you did this by yourself, like you
was andre agascy or some type of Mark, Mike Phelps
(30:15):
or some damn body, you know what I mean. But
the reality is that you know this whole. It's a
it's a team thing man to win it and to
actually know that you were you know, for me, it's
not I know that I had an integral part of
every single championship that Phil Jackson ever won. Because nobody
(30:37):
realizes this fact that I taught the Chicago Bulls the triangle.
I did not, not Phil Jackson, not text Winner. Craig Hodges, well,
go heard Mike wasn't wasn't feeling it at first, right
Michael Jordan In prior to training camp, when Phil said
that we're hinding the offense over the text Winner, he
(31:01):
was mad, and I told him, you will not be mad.
December fifteenth, watch watch because you're gonna expend forty percent
less energy, and the moments when you need to really
go and do it, you're gonna be energized because the
system is gonna create it for you. I talked to you.
I talked to Giannis last summer. I told him, brother,
(31:23):
if y'all was in trying, go when nobody beat y'all,
it's at least it's at least five to seven teams
that if you gave me that's if you gave me
that team for two years, they will be competitive for
a world championship. And can't nobody deny me that? And
I know it because I understand the implementation of it,
but also understand that the value of touching the basketball
(31:43):
as a player, it will allow you to go down
and sprint your ass back on defense because you know
you're gonna get touches on the other end.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
You know, it's crazy.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
This is similar to the situation when Steve Kirk came
to the Warriors and he kind of implemented his said
he comes from the similar trying assistant play out.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
So he came in and he was the first thing
he was telling Steph, I need to get you off
the ball. Mall. We're gonna run triangle.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
It's not triangle, but it's triangle principles and there's a
lot of the fundamentals and Steph and Stephan was hot like.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
He ain't like it is not something he was used to.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Here. He was like a man't gonna have a ball
as much everybody around the ring and running pick and
roll every time, and look what happened it made it.
It made it easier for him throughout the season.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And that's the crazy part. And when I look at
different you know, it's only so much that you can
do in the game, all right. And when I look
at Pop with Popper Pop did down in San Antonio,
a lot of that was triangle based, you feeling, and
that's that's the whole thing about it. But now once
again the game game goes in cycles, you know what
(32:44):
I mean. And I don't fight it. You know, this
generation is this generation. You play the way you play,
You energize the way your energize. But I would, I
would threaten to say that just from a intellectual standpoint,
from a a standpoint where this is what was demanded
of you as players. It's a lot different now. You know,
(33:07):
when I look at how many days of training camp
do you guys.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Have, it's a week or less, seven to ten, max.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Think about that, Okay. Now, in nineteen eighty nine, I
was traded to the Milwaukee Bucks and we had thirty
days of two days. Thirty days.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
I start aking, we have two, we have two, and
people start complaining.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Man, I'm talking about and Don Nelson. It wasn't no
this ain't no walkthrough. This is you know, it was
such with Don Nelson that we would have a two
and a half hour practice in a preseason game and
he just tell you don't give a damn about that
preseason game, you know what I'm saying. But we were
going to But for me, it was one of those
(33:57):
things that that was what the demands were. Then this
is what the demands are. Now it's about you know
what do y'all call it? Uh uh? Time management? Load management?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Spurs came up with that turn, oh man.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
And that's the and that's the part where I'm saying,
you know, Okay, the game is the game. But then
capitalism is capitalism. You know what I'm saying. I'm gonna
milk this opportunity to make sure that I'm at my
tip top going into the point where we can make
the most money possible. It's crazy. I know, like the league.
The League is hating the fact that it's Indiana and
Oklahoma City. I know they hated it.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
They couldn't be happy about that one.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Well, we come back from break, you're gonna find out
who is fluent. Craig Hodges to be the activist that
he is today, not to jump back around, but I
(34:59):
wanted to talk about the very first championship that you
was a part of, right just to I guess speak
on whether it's is truth or fact, Game one, protesting
about you know, approaching MJ and magic about you know,
potentially sitting out because obviously it's the LA riots going
on at that time.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So for me, it was one of the things where
you just spoke about Bill Russell and what he did
and as far as so within the history of us
as players in the NBA, there have been times within
that history where certain players took that position, whether it
was Bill Russell in the hotel situation or whether it
was Jerry West and Elgin Baylor at All Star Game
(35:41):
that started our union. So those are the things that
ran through my mind that at that point in time,
twenty one or the twenty four athletes that was getting
ready to play that night was us, and that we
didn't have. How many upper management positions did we have,
how many positions we have in the television sector where
we have senior executives that can be that can move
(36:02):
up in TNT or whatever it is in that sector.
How much of impact can we have as players to
go about doing things like that. So the morning, and
you know, the way the championship plays out is that
you practice in the NA practice. So prior to our practice,
I asked HIMJ As we're going out, yo, man, you know,
(36:23):
if we boycott tomorrow night, we can get some we
can get some concessions made, man, because if we don't
walk out on that court at twenty minutes, they're gonna say, oh,
they're just playing mental games. If neither team comes out
by fifteen minutes, somebody's saying, oh, what's happening. And I'm
saying that with you and Magic man, they can't deny us.
(36:48):
All right, MJ. Now that's a bit extreme, Hutch. Okay, cool,
I got you. Let's go and do what we're gonna do.
It is what it is. And then after after we
got off the court, Magic them were coming on court
and I, you know, put it to him and he
was the same thing. It was. It was almost somewhat dismissive,
you know what I'm saying. And it wasn't. It was
(37:10):
one of the things that had never crossed his mind.
So in hindsight, In hindsight, I should have did it
by myself. You know what, I'm saying, but I was
caught up into I know how important I was to
my squad too at that time, so it was about
if we're gonna do this, we gonna do this and
not just gonna be me.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, you mentioned a lot about the brotherhood too, so
you know what I mean. If this is a true brotherhood,
then you're gonna support your brother. You know what I
mean in this situation.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Seth TEI you man, it's it's you know, it is
a brotherhood, man, It's it really is when you when
you put on that we say that logo, when you
put that logo on, man, it's a certain it's a
certain fraternal order to it. And you know it's something
that you know, it's something that not to be slighted.
It's something that you know you can you can be
(37:57):
you can be cool with that. You had part of
that Hit Street on your resume, and at the same time,
it's okay, what do you do with it? You know
what did you just you know, like for me when
I one of the things that really insulted me was
when they told Lebron to just shut up and dribble.
You know what I'm saying, and what I'm saying, you know,
you can, you are You're able to say that because
you're sitting in that you shouldn't in that position of authority,
(38:19):
and you have the you know, you got the bully
pull up it to say that. But that's not necessarily
how this thing rolls out. You know, we can impact
our people by more ways than just dribbling and shooting jumpers,
and we can prove it. And now it's not even
a matter of proving it to you, it's a matter
of proving it to ourselves that we're capable of doing this.
And not only capable, but we will.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
Yeah, when we talk about brotherhood, you in the locker
room with those people every day, MJ all your teammates,
I mean, they know who you are, they know you
knowledgeable about the situation. It's not something you coming up
with off of whim like never, it's something that really
means something. So they should have known like this is
something real. So we got to take it with a
little bit more seriously.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
And the cool part for me, you know, one of
the things John Paxson I did a documentary it's still
in it's still in limbo or whatever, but John was
was a part of the documentary, and I was glad
that he participated because for me, he was He and
I were We were an example of what teammates should
be because we were always cognizant of what the surrounding
(39:27):
energies were going on, you know, whether it be him
and we'll Purdue and what they were feeling as white
culture and what we were over here feeling. But at
the same time, Wood is the basketball culture that needs
to go on. So one of my you know, one
of my cool teammates, was packed because he and I
(39:50):
what I what I gave to him was the information
of hey man, this is where we come from. You know.
He and he and one of my best friends were
McDonald's all Americans together and been through all camp stuff together,
so we had somewhere to bond from that end. But
I was always one that I'm excited about reading and
getting information, man, So I don't care black, white, brown,
or yellow. When I get this somebody, I'm excited about it.
(40:13):
I'm excited about this, just like I'm excited about us whinning.
So when I share this, I'm sharing this with everybody.
So it was it wasn't like anybody was surprised when
I gave the president letter. None of my teammates were
none of it. None of them. But at the same time,
only one of my teammates, and I'm gonna say his name,
Horace Grant, is the only person that has approached me.
(40:33):
And he approached me called me about this like five
years ago. Man. He called me in Chicago and he's like, man,
you and shop. I was like, yeah, man, I'm here.
He's like, man, I want to take you to dinner.
I was like, all right, cool. So he told me
where the meeting and I met him and it was
him and the Sun, and he's like, man, I wanted
my son to be here, and I wanted to apologize
to you for leaving you out there by yourself. Man,
(40:57):
we knew what you were doing. We knew you wasn't
no radical, crazy brother. We knew that it was about
you being born and raised in Chicago. And we win
in the championship in Chicago, and you're feeling more about
us winning this thing than anybody. So you know, I
grew up a Bulls fan where we weren't winning nothing.
It was Jerry Sloan, Norm van Leier, Tom Boorlwinkle, but
(41:21):
it was basketball you know. So for me it was
that it was that part that kept me inspired. But
also Jim Man, just to know that, hey, this road
that we own, man, this road that you're own. Were
y'all spreading this knowledge and information? Man, it ain't no
paying that. And you know what I'm saying, the payers,
the payers, the wealth and the relationship that we build
from doing this and knowing that, hey man, we're on
(41:44):
the right side of history. We're on the right side
of the defensive this one. This is not a transactional thing.
This is transitional, you know. And I think that's one
of the things that had happened to us, is especially
as black man, we become so transactional that I got
to get a quick hit. I got to get it,
hey man, can I make Come on man, we can't
be transactional for ninety years, brother, We got to We
gotta be able to build something that's transitional for our
(42:06):
children and our women. I tell people all the time,
we are the only people on the face of the
earth who don't have a plan for our women and
our children, especially from a security and especially from the
end of being able to feed and shelter them. So
we got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 4 (42:22):
I mean, I'm glad you brought that up as far
as uh you're talking about Horus and and him knowing
how much you want to win, even though you're a
convictions to pulling you something that's more important. Because I
was with I was around Kyrie and the teammate with
him in Brooklyn when he was going through the whole
COVID thing and a couple other scanners off the floor
and he was getting a big like the fans were
on them heavy because it's like he don't really want
(42:44):
to win. He don't care about who's he getting paid
all this money, and nobody wanted, nobody work harder, nobody
want to win more than Kyrie.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
It's just this means more. It's more important than him, right.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
And that's that's part. It's similar to yeah, and for me,
and make sure, man, you know, make sure you give
him my info, man, because I want to speak type brother.
I've been seeing him from far but we never got
to speak, and I wanted to tell him, you know
how much I appreciated the fact that you know, you
took a courageous stance, man. And not only that, but
(43:15):
I tell people it's a real tightrope. Man, It's a
tight rope of being able to as you studying at
three o'clock in the morning, and this information is hitting
you and you can't deny it because it's God send,
all right, and you know that I have to do
something with it. Damn. I got practice at nine thirty,
you know what I'm saying, And that practice at nine thirty,
(43:37):
I'm getting ready to go out here and I'm gonna
do my thing and to be able to and I
tell people from me. When I was at Long Beach State, man,
I truly felt that the more I studied about my people,
the better my game got, the better my shooting became
because it wasn't me just doing it for me. And
you know, even to the point of us winning championships
(44:00):
that first one, y'all, they wouldn't have won it without
a hotch. And this ain't no boastful thing, but it's
a thing of knowing that in order to get to
our spacing, to get to the movement of it, to
know that when the balls here, we got these movements
that you can read from that. Y'all didn't know that
until I gave y'all at So when I'm telling them, Jay,
You're gonna be able to get off from this elbow.
(44:21):
You're gonna be able to post up when we need
you to post up, and you're gonna be able to
get there without it being any struggle of you having
to fight through three or four people. And that's the
part of it that I say that, you know, I've
been blessed to have great coaching all the way through.
Steve Fisher was my high school coach that coached the
five five in San Diego State, So I had great
(44:42):
mentorship in the game. So I played the game in
that way when I think about man just to say this,
had I got another two years after that, I wasn't
gonna pass to anybody. And that was my mindset that
when I'm on the court, I'm gonna shoot it just
like everybody else, but I'm gonna try to put up
as many shots as I could.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back,
we're gonna talk about the legacy of Craig Hawks. From
a legacy standpoint, what do you think athletes just are
(45:22):
just black men in general, you know out here? From
a legacy standpoint, what do you think we need to
do moving forward like as far as like obviously we
have a bigger platform to teach and speak on certain
things and things that we truly care about, especially in
the inner cities and everything else.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
One of the things I think of man that you know,
just when I look at other nations of people man
and how it's no, okay, really you have three white
guys in the room. They're all different business man, but
if somebody sees something happen that's gonna affect three, they
come together and they say, you know what I'm saying
(46:03):
and where we are? We I was, like I said,
I was blessed man born be born in June twenty seventh,
nineteen sixty. So I saw black love and unity. I
saw that. So I saw it as a reality, and
I saw how it was built. So when I'm sitting
here at sixty four and I'm looking what Donald Trump
(46:23):
is doing, when I'm looking what Elion Musk is doing,
when I'm looking with Vladimir Prutin is doing, when I
look what the bricks nations are doing, I'm looking at
the demise of a Western empire. Because all the empires fail,
all empires have shelf life. And when we look at
what's going on for that? Then I look at our
connection to Africa. Are we going to build upon that?
(46:47):
So I love what the African brothers in the league
are doing with basketball Africa. You feel me. They are
saying we are going to control that energy on our content.
Who could be mad at that? There's no And the
part from me is that it's an example of what
I was asking brothers to do in the eighties when
(47:09):
I went to almost every every summer meeting I went to,
I gave a proposal to do things within the community.
I'm talking about extensive. But you know what I got.
Our union is a political I got that. Okay, So
we don't support no political campaigns and all that type
of stuff. But what type of things are we doing
(47:30):
programmatically across the country in these NBA cities that could
be conducive to the growth of these young folks. So
when I look at when we where we are right now,
I think with the wealth and status that we have,
there are ways that we can unify ourselves. And this
is where it starts. Man. You know, when I'm like
(47:50):
I said, I'm sixty four, man, I'm not you brothers.
Now you know what I'm saying, and and we as elders,
we got to be or let y'all handle the business
and we be yo, man, where y'all need me at?
What type of info can I provide? This is the
experience I had when I was dealing with these people
this way. Now. Like, for instance, I had a conversation
(48:12):
with one of my teammates and I'm not gonna say
his name because I don't want to put them out
there like that, but he's within the system. So he
says to me, you know, Hodge, what I saw was
how much they was punching back when you were just
standing on things. So for me, I looked at it
and said, I ain't going to see where the money is.
(48:34):
And I ain't got no problem with that. Now, where
you see what the money is, what can we do
and how do we channel and funnel some of that
money back into our community in terms of you know,
banks and goods and servicings like you said, financial literacy,
you know stuff that you know, when I look at
my black study regimen that I learned at Long Beach State,
I could have had that in fourth grade. You know
(48:56):
what I'm saying. Some of these civic things that we
learning now. We could have had when we were long.
We could have had that as young folk people. But
it was a certain it was a certain cadre of
people that didn't want us to have that that gave
us these thigments of our imagination, you know, George Washington,
all of these mythological things that we grabbed hold one of.
(49:19):
Like for me, you know, the they taught me that
doing others as you would have others doing to you,
that's the golden rule. Then Donald Trump comes in the
office and tells us he who has the gold rules. Okay,
you could have gave us. You could have gave us early.
You could have gave us early, and I wouldn't have
been thinking like, hey, how you doing today? Hey how
(49:41):
you doing? When they're thinking how can I get something
out of you today? You hear me, how can I
get your gold out of you today? Whether you be
Bokino Fasso, or whether you be Zimbabwe, or whether you
be South Africa. You know, they need the minerals that
Africa has. Now, Okay, they have the minerals. We had,
have the knowledge base, and we have the marketability. Nothing,
(50:05):
nothing in this Western Empire would roll without you. Okay,
they get the minerals and you we are the models
in the marketing for their products. It's wow when we
look at it, man. But today it's a different day.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Man.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
African people are African people, and we're coming back into
that consciousness of how we built stuff in the beginning.
We got to build it again.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
They're going back to what you said about doing stuff
in the communities, using retired players and the whole system
and brotherhood. It shouldn't be too hard to do because
they always got to. They use retire players all the
time for corporate events. You got to appearance to check here,
check there. It shouldn't be like this needs to be
continued to be pushed to like the PA to NBA
because they it's resources to be able to do it.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
And you know, one of the things that you know
in the very very near future, brother, it's some stuff
that's going on that I definitely want to share with y'all,
but it's a little bit of it too early to
do it. But I want to make sure that you
know we come back and regroup, man, because one of
the things that's going on now, and like I said,
I was I was blessed to be in the sixties
(51:14):
and see what black love was. The music that we
had was all channel to us getting together and to
know that we got to be able to do that
and recapture that again. It's got it. It can't be
no more beefing, man. We got And when I think
about beefing and growing up with I grew up, I said,
I could I imagine Stevie Wonder beefing with Smoky you
(51:34):
know you know what I'm saying, Man, Smokey battling with Marvin.
What's up?
Speaker 3 (51:42):
That's a good point because you don't get you don't
get what's the cookout songs?
Speaker 4 (51:45):
Now?
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Man?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
What's the what's the good to go?
Speaker 2 (51:50):
You know? Talking about itself about raps like collaborative competition, man.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
And you know one of the things too, is I
look at I look at Okay, I look at Okay,
the nineteen fifty players. They was grooving on Miles Davis,
Thelonious Monk. You know what I'm saying, We were grooving
on Stevie. And then I look at how the game
he is now boo. And that's the way I'm looking
(52:15):
at how the how is played and the comparative analysis
how the game is played and once you look at
it out. Brothers who are hoopers would love to be singers,
and singers would love to be hoopers, and how they
intertrne within our culture. And we see it, man, we
see like when I was playing, when we were playing,
the music colleague for the seventy six ers was Grove Washington.
(52:38):
You know what I'm saying. So we coming in and
he blowing the national anthem and they getting beached on that.
So it's a total different vibration. And how that whole
vibration fstance. Colin Kaepernick takes a knee, the commissioner sits
down with jay Z and give us halftime. Yeah, okay, Doug,
(53:01):
that's a concession. Okay, But even to that point, I'm saying, okay, well,
at least he got something out of it. What I
got out of it when I stood up was you
got to find an agent that joke. And then I'm thinking,
I'm like, damn you the representative my union couldn't represent
me to get a contract. What's up? But it is
(53:22):
what it is. Man. I'm glad you brothers doing what
y'all doing, man, because y'all on the cutting edge is
something that you know this next generation is gonna be
able to look to and it ain't seeing it, you know.
And Gil Scott here and said a long time ago
the revolution wouldn't be televised, but we didn't know about internet,
you know what I'm saying. So people ain't watching that
CNN and ABC and all that, but they getting it
(53:44):
through a different vibe.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Absolutely, I want to say happy Birthday in advance. But
then also, how do you feel about you know, June
team becoming the national holiday and obviously watching it progress
through through the United States.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yeah, and it's it's it's cool, man. And I think
one of the things that's that uh, you know, liberation
is liberation, you know, and that deliberation of thought more
than anything else, and that what we say, truth crushed,
the earth is gonna rise. So in the time of
this rising, man, it's good to see, you know, good
to see our people able to know that, you know,
(54:22):
we were we were bamboozled again, but now we're able
to say, hey, y'all bamboozled us. But now were able
to you know, get ourselves together and we can stand
up on you know, what our ancestors died for and
we're freed for. So you know now we are really
at that point of true freedom and it's what we're
gonna do about it and with it.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
It has been great talking with mister Craig Hodges. Happy
June team to all our listeners. We are going to
cut off part one here, but we will be back
next week with more from Craig Hodges. We get into
an incredible three point contest success where he went up
against Larry Bird Crush, Michael Jordan and competed without even
being on an NBA team. Plus we talk about why
(55:04):
he thinks his ninety one Bulls team is the best
ever doer. See you next week, go.
Speaker 5 (55:20):
This has been a Unanimous Media original. GOP was produced
by iHeart Podcasts and Unanimous Media. It was hosted by
Me Trevon Edwards and step Kirk. Executive produced by Stephen
Curry and Eric Katon. Co executive producer Colenna Maria Cutting.
The executive producers.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
At iHeart Podcasts are Sean Titone and Jason English. This
series was produced by Derrick Jennings and Peter Cutcher, Co
producer Kurt Redney.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
Original music by Jesse Woodard.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
Special thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Special shout
out to Scott Rochelle and the NBRPA for preserving our
walking libraries by granting access to their stories at this
Thanks to Philip Alexander for his booking assistance on this episode.
Goat is a production of Unanimous Media and iHeart Podcasts.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(56:13):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
It wasn't like anybody was surprised when I gave the
president of letter. None of my teammates weren't none of them,
none of them. But at the same time, only one
of my teammates, and I'm gonna say his name, Horace Grant,
is the only person that has approached me. And he
approached me. He called me about just like five years ago. Man.
He called me in Chicago and he's like, man, you
(00:20):
and shop. I was like, yeah, man, I'm here. He's like, man,
I want to take you to dinner. I was like,
all right, cool. So he told me what a meeting
and I met him and it was him and the son,
and he's like, man, I wanted my son to be here,
and I wanted to apologize to you for leaving you
out there by yourself. Man, we knew what you were doing.
(00:40):
We knew you wasn't no radical, crazy brother. We knew
that it was about you being born and raised in Chicago.
And we went in the championship in Chicago, and you're
feeling more about us winning this thing than anybody. So
you know, I grew up a Bulls fan where we
weren't winning nothing. It was Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Live,
Tom Bolwinkle, But it was basketball, you know. So for
(01:05):
me it was that it was that part that that
kept me inspired. But also Jim Man, just to know that, hey,
this road that we own, man, this road that you're on,
were all spreading this knowledge and information. Man, it ain't
no paying that, you know what I'm saying. The payers,
the payers, the wealth and the relationship that we build
from doing this and knowing that, hey man, we we're
(01:25):
on the right side of history. We're on the right
side of defensive this one. This is not a transactional thing.
This is transitional, you know. And I think that's one
of the things that had happened to us, is especially
as black man, we become so transactional that I got
to get a quick hit. I gotta get it, hey man,
how can I make Come on, man, we can't be
transactional for ninety years, brother, got We gotta be able
(01:45):
to build something that's transitional for our children and our women.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Welcome back to another episode of Grace of Their Era.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
What's up? Dot Well? Trade back with another one? Got
a good one today?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Oh yeah, man, we got we got a legend in
the building.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
For real, real legend, one of the real shooters in
the league for one of the best to ever do
it on the floor, but also somebody who made lasting
impact off the floor. So I'm following his footsteps a
lot of ways on the floor, trying to win some
championships like him too.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yes, absolutely, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. Craig Hodges.
We're honored to have a true basketball legend and fearless advocate.
A two time champion with the Chicago Bulls, NBA, three
times three point Contest champion, and led the league in
three point percentage three times sinking threes alongside Michael Jordan
in the early nineteen nineties. But his legacy goes beyond
(02:42):
the court. Known for his n wavering commitment to social justice,
Craig made headlines when he boldly called for action on
racial and economic inequality, even delivering a powerful letter to
the White House in nineteen ninety two. His courage speaks
truth to power, despite the personal costs, continue to aspire.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Mister Hodgs brother. I appreciate that, uh, that little segment
you put it in right there. First of all, so
thankful to Almighty God for giving us an opportunity to
come across the airways. Man, to share with your young brothers.
And you know, I remember Seth when we were in
the D League and I was in New York doing
some stuff up there, and you know, to see you
know where you come brother, is great. And once again,
(03:26):
you know, congratulations on your three point percentage title this year.
And keep it moving, man.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Like I said, stay healthy, stay healthy, stay healthy.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
That's the key. That's the key. I mean, that's probably
the most important thing. It means the age.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Keep trying to do it, trying like congratulating me on
that three point percentage title. I mean, you got to
take pridect that type of stuff. I know you do
shooting basketball.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And the crazy part is, you know, and and that's
the that's the cool part of life is at this
point in your career, you can truly say that you
the best of doing it during this season, you know,
and to be able to build on that, and you know,
I know the level of confidence that it gives you
once you're able to do it among your peers and
they have to achnowledge it, you know, So just keep
(04:13):
on doing what you're doing. Man, Like I said, keep
doing what you're doing and tell you that and family,
I said, what's happening to you?
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yea, all right, this is a special episode. This airs
on June tenth, so happy June tenth to everyone listening,
you know. Overall, So we want to set the stage
like we always do on this show and go through criteria.
So this one is a special episode. So we're going
to go through the criteria of activism and for there,
(04:40):
we'll start off with significant social or political advocacy, the
use of platform, the personal sacrifice or risk, the lasting impact,
the relevance to era, and the diversity of causes and sports. So,
mister Hodges, we want to go through a couple activists
and see how they why, what they meant to you
(05:01):
before you know your own personal activism, but also how
important they were not only to the culture but to
you know their calls. So the first person we actually
wanted to bring up was Kareem aut du Jabbar. He
boycotted the nineteen sixty eight Olympics to protest the US
treatment of African Americans and champion racial equality. How was
(05:23):
Kareem abdu Jabbar to his activism.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
You know. And for me, I've been blessed brothers to
be around so many people who were images in my household.
So at that point in time, it was lieue El Sindor,
you know what I'm saying. And for me, it was
to see the difference he made in the game coming
from high school to college to where they had to
change the game just so he would he wouldn't dominate
(05:47):
to that point, you know, and to see him change
his name and the maturity that he showed, and as
far as his knowledge and overstanding of where we came
from and the plot, like we speak about the platform
that he had, and during that time, it was not
only you know, not only Kareem, but it was other
players in the league that were also changing their names
and studying the culture. And it had impact on us,
(06:10):
you know, similar to Muhammad, you know a least. So
when we look at those things and for us, for
me especially, it was impactful because it was part of
conversations around my dinner table when I was growing up.
You know that it was certain athletes and entertainers that
my family said, look at that, you know what I'm saying,
(06:31):
and then they would show you the opposite side of
that of those who weren't standing up for what they
thought or could stand up for. So yeah, Kareem was,
you know, very instrumental in my development as far as
you know, you can think about things and you know,
you can think about where you want to go. But
when I was growing up, and you know, I was
born in nineteen sixty, so I grew up in that
(06:53):
era of UCLA winning championships and I'm in Chicago going
to winners and I'm looking at Palm Tree in short
sleeve shirts and I'm like, I want to go out
West to play. But Kareem had a big impact in that,
you know, and what he did early in his career
and the unders seeing when he got to Milwaukee with
Oscar Robertson, who was another one of my you know,
one of the brothers that was you know, instrumental in
(07:16):
my development even though it was far away, you know.
So yeah, Kareem was. Kareem is still critical, man, I think,
and that's the part where we have to continue to
honor those who definitely laid who helped lay the foundation
of where we stand today.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, that's dope, because I was going to ask, I mean,
you kind of answered what I was going to ask
you next. But like I mean, growing up in this
a day and age, you look at a lot of
the kids who look up to the certain athletes who
I mean want to be known for that competitiveness.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
How good they are on the floor, I mean tackle
was MJ.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
No question, great, they own right, but they not really
They're not let that trade this and off the floor
into other things outside of the sport, you know what
I'm saying. So you kind of show how where your
mind was form as far as that yourdentitator in your household.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And you know the crazy part of the crazy part
that you say that I wrote my book in twenty seventeen,
and a bunch of my homeboys, a bunch of friends
I grew up with, they saw the positions that I took.
But I tell people, you know, you never know what's
in somebody's household. You know, as friends, we'd go up
to the door, Hey miss I just's Craig here, and
you come out, But you don't know what's going on
day to day, what's going on around the dinner table,
(08:22):
you know. And a big factor in me writing a
letter to President Bush was you know, my mom was
the secretary for the Civil Rights Organization when I was
growing up, and my uncles and my granddad were the
sports part of things. But tell people all the time,
I learned to read and write before I could ribble
the basketball. So it was one of those things where
(08:43):
the thinking part of it was, you know, the most
critical part of it in my household. And that you know,
my granddad would always tell me, look at the sports page.
Where does it appear at the back of the newspaper.
So make sure if you want to really affect people's lives,
try to get on that front page.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
The next man I'm bringing up you mentioned he was
your goat. He's the NBA's first black superstar. Mister Bill
Russell was a vocal civil rights advocate, participated in nineteen
sixty three March on Washington, and supported all these draft refusals.
He also led the Celtics boycott of an exhibition game
in nineteen sixty one to protest racial discrimination. Can you
(09:21):
tell us a little bit more about your connection with
mister Bill Russell?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Man? You know when you look at and you know
when I look at when we have this whole conversation
about goat it's really Muhammad Ali, you know, because he
coined the term and everything rolls off of that. But
when we talk about Seth will tell you, yeah, we
can win three point titles, we can win three point
percentage awards, but it's all about winning championship. Man. And
(09:44):
when we look at you know, I see in this
generation oftentimes where they say, well, Bill Russell and they
weren't playing against anybody. Hey, man, we put in the
game where the game is, you know, and when we
look at it from that manner, nobody won the way
that brother won, Man. And not only that, he was
an example of how to go out, how to go
about playing the game, how to be an inspirational teammate,
(10:08):
how to make people better around you. But and you know,
dare to say one of the greatest cent as far
as being able to balance that type rope between consciousness
and your career, and to be able to do it
in a manner that was honorable. To be able to
do it as a gentleman, and to be able to
do it with patience, you know. And the patient's parts
(10:29):
comes when you're standing up on behalf of your people
and probably ninety to ninety five percent of our people
oftentimes don't realize it and it's not you know, and
you're not doing it for that, but you're doing it
on behalf of them. So you know, I know that
Bill put up with a lot man, you know, and
studying his career and then having a chance to you know,
(10:51):
Lord bless me to have a chance to speak to
him and talk to him. So those type of things, man,
they leave an imprint on you. And to be able
to be at the age you are now and to
be able to be in the position of not I
don't I don't like the term leadership, but I like
the term of being in the term of being able
to be a teacher at some point in time, being
(11:12):
able to share information about experiences more than anything else.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, my short time talking to him before he passed,
met him a couple of times. He was always always
he had that light to him, but he was always
spread knowledge man.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
No question stories or stories.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
No doubt. And like the thing I love about him was,
you know, he could go from being steal and then
he'll breakout into that laugh. That was totally Bill Russell.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, So I mean they him being the first I
don't know if he was the first maybe, but like
definitely the first black player coach at the same.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Time, absolutely shows the respect people half for him.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, and then to do it in Boston.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Exactly, That's what I say.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yep, yep, absolutely Uh this next player he played in
the same area as you. My mood, I'll do it
or the Denver Dugget sparked controversy in nineteen ninety six
by refusing to stand for the national anthem, citing his
Muslim faith and objections to the US policies and as oppressive.
He was suspended for one game, and then he had
faced intense backlash, ended up being traded was out of
(12:15):
the league by twenty nine despite strong stats his protests
and precursor to you know, obviously everybody mentions in current
day Colin Kaepernick, but beforehand, you know, my move was.
You know, I got a chance to see the documentary.
I was very young when he was you know, protesting
during the time, but also watching us well, I was
(12:37):
born in the eighties. But yeah, like the impact that
he had, I think maybe, you know, if it was
a different era and current area overly supported you know
what I mean, both of you guys.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
You know, for me, what happened to me in my career.
I get that. But when I think about Macmoo, for me,
I say, you know, similar to your brother's steph before
his time from thumb the standpoint, from the standpoint of
the numbers that he could get in bunches, and to
(13:12):
do it against the defense that he was doing it against.
It was I wanted to see how much how many
numbers he could have put up during his run, because
nobody stayed in better shape than my proof. And to
you know, I had a chance to the first time
we ever met was at the Big Three in Chicago,
and it was like literally a reunion between us from
(13:36):
the standpoint of us having admiration from afar from one
another in the positions that we took. But for me
to see his background and his educational maturity and where
he came from and having turets and just you know,
regurgitating school plans as opposed to really overstanding what he
was reading, and to see how how much of a
(13:57):
depth student he is now to just knowledge and information. Man.
It serves to show that you know, basketball is one thing,
but the humanity of this thing man is the overriding principle.
Man and to see him study the way he studies,
to see him share his information with people, and to see,
you know, just the light that he is right now
(14:18):
for you know, not just black people, brown people, even Muslims.
He's a light for a lot of people. Man. And
you know, I like I said, I tell that brother,
I say, Man, I would have loved to see you
for another seven years and what you could have done
number wise, because you know, and it's no distant John Stockton,
but the numbers that I saw him do, John Stockton
(14:38):
at fifty five or something like that, and it wasn't
It wasn't like you know. And the cool part about
my mood is that it's not like him trying to
be greedy. It's about what's in front of him. He'll
passed the ball, But why passed it when I know
I can knock.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
This down, treat me if I'm wrong, like he's.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Nobody else played like him when he played his conviction,
his confidence that they saw off the floor was how
he played on the floor.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
It was it was incredible, you know. When and then
when in the crazy party is when I went to
the Big Three to watch him. I had a chance
to see him in practice when he was in practice
mode and to see him for probably about twenty or
thirty minutes just slily working on his handles, and what
impressed me the most was how tight his spin moves were,
(15:22):
that he could actually come out of the spin move
and be right into his jay And I was like, man,
that's that's some cold practice habits right there.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
For our listeners who are meeting you for the first
time through this episode, what are for one, could you
take us back to his nineteen ninety two correct what
actually happened during that time? And then also what are
some of the narratives that you would like to clean
up if there was because there's obviously a conversation and
(15:55):
it took for me to read a couple of times,
you know what I mean about it to like like, oh,
I thought something was different out of hearsay, you get
what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Because you did say like I get what happened to me,
which I mean some people don't, but.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You know, and you know the biggest part for me,
once again, like I said, was I was put on
this when I was a baby man. And you know,
sometimes as you're going through life, you you know, for me,
my Granddaddy told me when I was six years old
that the quickest way to the big show was to
be a catcher. So I caught from the time I
was six years old until I was fifteen. And at
(16:32):
the same time basketball was developing because my uncle was
the number one junior college scorer in nineteen sixty three,
so that's who taught me out of hoop. So I
had I had a mindset of, you know, wanting to
be a pro early, learning how to do the drill
work necessary. But at the same time, I had this
overriding thing that hey man, nobody, you know you only
(16:55):
as uh, you only can leverage yourself as the least
of your people. And that was you know in me.
So when I look at when we won, you know,
I was studying, I had. I was blessed to go
to a long beach stay with text winner, who's the
you know, the designer of the triangle to a degree,
and at the same time I had a chance to
(17:17):
study Black studies and for four years I was at
you know, probably the premier Black studies program in the nation.
So we had great instruction and I was I was
taught the importance of being able to manage what you're
doing in this society and try to mine it and
bring it back home and develop something from that. So
(17:39):
you know, the night before we won our championship June
of nineteen ninety one, and I warned Dashiki's the entire
playoff series because the year before Detroit that kicked our
ass so bad. I said, you know what, we need
some ancestral heart. So the next season, I said, I'm
gonna wear Dashiki's every playoff game, so you know, us
(18:02):
being ritualistic as athletes, I wore the first one we won,
and now was everybody in an organization, Ah, you got
another Dashiki? Man, I got enough of these three sixty five, man,
so let's go. That ain't the issue. Let's go. So
once we won our championship, assistant Chicago made me a
white Dashiki to go to the White House. I have
only planned to wear Dashiki to the White House. Had
(18:22):
we went in June, it would have never been a letter.
But we didn't go into October first. So the night
before we went, me and my homeboy were playing ping
pong and it hits me, Man, sit your ass down
to write this letter because you had been doing this
your whole life. You know, your mom taught you to
write to the senators, to you know, to different school
(18:43):
boards and all of that. And I've been writing letters
to people with power all my life. So I sat
down that night and wrote the letter. And the next
day we get to the White House and I tell,
you know, I tell our press guy that I got
a letter for the President. He tells another guy, and
they said, I can't hand anything to the president because
it's against security or whatever. So I gave it to
the Press secretary. And when I had a chance to
(19:04):
meet Bush, I told everybody he was cool as a
fan of me, you know what I'm saying. I told him, yeah,
I wrote you a letter, and he kind of took
him aback, but he said, yeah, I'll make sure I
read it or whatever. But you know, to my knowledge,
I never got any response back. So when we look
at going forward, it's a whole lot of Like I
tell people, you know, the narrative that was created was
(19:26):
Craig Hodg just went to the White House, he wore dashiki,
and he delivered President Bush a letter. Now, what was
going on during that time, the Iraqi War and all
of that type of Jobe so it was considered that
me being dressed like this crazy Muslim, that I must
be I must have delivered a letter that was, you know,
(19:46):
opposite of what was politically expedient. But anyone that read
it would see that it wasn't nothing like that. That
it was about poor people, it was about homeless people,
it was about Native Americans. And I considered I brought
us in last and as far as the realization that
within the context of where we stand in America from
(20:08):
the oppression side of it, we are a carbon. We
are the example. So we undergird all the civil rights movements,
all the human rights movements, that's all been on us.
So when I looked at that, I said, there's no
way I could go to the White House without doing
something that my mom and the freedom fighters who wouldn't
(20:30):
get a chance to come here, you know. So that
was that's what that was about. And then to be
ostracized after that, you know, at that point in time,
I was leading, I led the league, I guess I
won three point three three point titles in a row
and two world championships at that time, and I couldn't
get an agent to represent me. My union told me
that I needed to find an agent that a team
(20:52):
owed a favor so they would know that I'm not
a bad guy. And at that time, Charlie Grantham was
our executive director, and I said, Charlie, what did I
do that made me a bad guy? I was player
rep as a rookie. I was player rep for all
four teams that I played for for a ten year
period of time. I was never fined. I was never
(21:13):
laid for a bus, I never missed a plane. What
is considered bad? You know what I'm saying. So when
we look at my body of work and as a
thirty two year old and the highest earning potential in
my career, I was unrestricted free agent, you know they
would have had to. I think the next offic sheet
had to be six hundred percent more than I made
(21:34):
the year before. So the numbers themselves would have been
enough to create generational wealth. That's the part that you know,
when we look at when we look at the entirety
of this thing. When I'm John Carlos, who's who's one
of my mentors, you know, to have the chance to
talk to him, and him explained it to me from
a standpoint that when you look at what happened in
(21:55):
nineteen sixty eight. There was a movement that they were
swept up into. When we look at Colin Kaepernick, he
would swept up into a movement. When Make Mood and
myself were out there, it wasn't no movement. Things were static,
you know what I'm saying. So and especially now with
where you guys are now, and that's why applaud what
(22:15):
you're doing, is that you're able to use these platforms
in a manner to teach as well as inspiring man
and let people understand that it's a different you know
what we say, it's two sides to the coin. But
then you know, it's a little band that goes around,
so it's a it's a side that we don't often see.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Yeh, we're privileged, I mean, because I mean a lot
of this is y'all doing. Who led the way, but
y'all needed y'all really need a media to tell your story, right,
because you couldn't teach, You can't get on you can't
get on Twitter and get your mess crazy and you stop.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
One of the things that I heard Jim Brown say
when I was younger, and I didn't really realize he
was like, yeah, when he's like the media and the
teams they're together. And I didn't understand that until I
understand the reality that if you, as a media person
make a bad story on that team, how much more
opportunity you're gonna get to talk to these players? You
(23:09):
know what I'm saying. So it's a it's a certain
amount of you know, independence that this brings about that
wasn't there before.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
And they players, I mean players, life chief no matter
who you are. Yeah, it's gonna end one day, and
these teams.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Gonna keep rolling.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
So you got that statey and members thinking about the
long term.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
And I call it how much shelf life you got?
You got so much, man, you only got so much
shelf life. And Lord Willing, Lord Willing with the bread
that that's being put out now that not only are
you creating generational wealth, but you're also creating opportunities for
people less fortunate than you that you know they need,
(23:48):
they need some of the you know, the creativity that
you guys have and are able to utilize. Now, you know,
you we had things, you know, I think about the
Late Junior Bridge when Lord rest is soul and I'm
having the creativity to be able to go into uh
Wendy's and be able to do what he did there.
And you know, that's that's a great example, you know,
(24:09):
but not all of us had that type of in row.
And I hope that one of the things that we
can do as a group of brothers and former players
is to be able to make that exit route a
little smoother for brothers to be able to go into
you know now. And one of the things that I'm
looking at and what I'm working on is teaching this
next generation of basketball player and student athletes about what
(24:31):
is your role and responsibility when you come to the gym?
You know, are you on top of your books? Are
you ready to put your thinking cap on and listen
as opposed to worrying about how many follows you got
and if your phone is ringing? So, you know, I
think we have a great opportunity going forward, especially now
that the you know, the resources. We can't really holler
(24:51):
that we don't have resources no more. We have them.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
But that's why and I owe this stuff kind of
make me nervous though you talk about your.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Education and college and pushing you in the direction you
want to go off the floor and continue to learn.
Like me, I learned a lot in college and I
was forced to go to class. You know what I'm
it's not They're not really gonna be forced to go
to class. I'm not gonna be forced to stumble in
some knowledge that they might not have had because they
getting paid.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, it's a lack of financial literacy. And then also,
you know, anything can happen on court. And then now
it's kind of like, you know, you either have to
thought or you know what I mean, you have to
figure out the next thing. Stay with us when we
come back. You're gonna find out who actually take Michael Jordan.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Nabules to try off.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I wanted to chime in a little bit and talk
about post, you know, the black Ball situation right throughout
the years. Now you're published author, h.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
What's the title of the book?
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I'm sorry, lung shot struggles and trying.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So I got to make sure I picked that up
as well, so I can, you know, check that out.
But prior to getting to, you know, writing this book,
you were coaching as well. What you know with with
the information now in current day and writing this book,
how did you get to that point of saying Hey,
you know what, although this all happened to me, I'm
going to put my word to my knowledge and the
(26:36):
teachings in the book for others.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
For me, like I said, i've been I love to write.
So I probably wrote all kind of essays and articles
and self concerning you know, social issues concerning our people,
and I should have been published while I was playing.
But once again, and when I look at the difference
(27:02):
in thought process, all right, I think about how serious
I was about making sure I was on top of
my game, probably because of the fact that I came
in at forty thousand dollars on a make good contract,
all right. My second year was forty five thousands, My
(27:22):
next year was fifty five thousand. I didn't make a
hundred thousand dollars to my fifth year in the league,
all right. So for me, and then when I look
at my boy MJ. Who would go out and play
thirty six holds golf before here he go coming home.
You know what I'm saying, a total different, relaxed mindset
to it. But at the same time, for me, it
(27:43):
was one of those things that, you know, the knowledge
and information that I had, I realized that the impact
that that could have. So for me, it wasn't even
a it wasn't even choice of the matter that I
got this himpoint I got to share it. Now the
ramifications of sharing it then becomes another thing that Okay,
I know, I'm thirty two years of age. I can't
(28:05):
I can't get an agent. But in the summer league,
I'm getting thirty five, you know what I'm saying against
brothers in the league. But at the same time, the
way I'm playing in the summer I'm just you know,
I ain't even later for a past you know what
I'm saying. But when I'm playing within this triangle, I
understand that this is the reality of how we're going
to play to win championship. So it's a different it's
(28:26):
a different reality. But also coming off of that the
reality you self to tell you from a standpoint of
you know, you will hear we're here ownership and management
and league officials say this is this is our league
and our players, and that this is a family, all right.
(28:47):
But now when it becomes your shelf life is short.
How much of the family are you when you stand
on a certain position that the majority of your family
is under these conditions that you standing on and you
bringing it to a multi mega corporations to say, yo,
can we do a little bit of something over here
(29:10):
without it being oh well, so. The thing that I
heard from ninety two to ninety seven when I sued
the league was I don't know if you want Craig
Hodges in your locker room because he's a locker room
lawyer and he might not be good to be around
your players. And then I'm saying, come on, you know
(29:32):
these these And then you hear another thing where they say, well,
it's defense. And then you see an article from Phil
Jackson say ain't nobody playing defense? No one body? Stanthan
tell you ain't no one body playing defense.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Man.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
If you ain't playing five men defensively, you ain't winning jack.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Man.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Come on, you know. And that's what that's one of
the things where and that's one of some of the
drama that my boy Pi this happened now with him Jay,
is that you know the reality that you didn't do
this by yourself, brotherhood, But when you go in and
you make one of the last dances created, it seems
as though that you did this by yourself, like you
was andre agascy or some type of Mark, Mike Phelps
(30:15):
or some damn body, you know what I mean. But
the reality is that you know this whole. It's a
it's a team thing man to win it and to
actually know that you were you know, for me, it's
not I know that I had an integral part of
every single championship that Phil Jackson ever won. Because nobody
(30:37):
realizes this fact that I taught the Chicago Bulls the triangle.
I did not, not Phil Jackson, not text Winner. Craig Hodges, well,
go heard Mike wasn't wasn't feeling it at first, right
Michael Jordan In prior to training camp, when Phil said
that we're hinding the offense over the text Winner, he
(31:01):
was mad, and I told him, you will not be mad.
December fifteenth, watch watch because you're gonna expend forty percent
less energy, and the moments when you need to really
go and do it, you're gonna be energized because the
system is gonna create it for you. I talked to you.
I talked to Giannis last summer. I told him, brother,
(31:23):
if y'all was in trying, go when nobody beat y'all,
it's at least it's at least five to seven teams
that if you gave me that's if you gave me
that team for two years, they will be competitive for
a world championship. And can't nobody deny me that? And
I know it because I understand the implementation of it,
but also understand that the value of touching the basketball
(31:43):
as a player, it will allow you to go down
and sprint your ass back on defense because you know
you're gonna get touches on the other end.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
You know, it's crazy.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
This is similar to the situation when Steve Kirk came
to the Warriors and he kind of implemented his said
he comes from the similar trying assistant play out.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
So he came in and he was the first thing
he was telling Steph, I need to get you off
the ball. Mall. We're gonna run triangle.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
It's not triangle, but it's triangle principles and there's a
lot of the fundamentals and Steph and Stephan was hot like.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
He ain't like it is not something he was used to.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Here. He was like a man't gonna have a ball
as much everybody around the ring and running pick and
roll every time, and look what happened it made it.
It made it easier for him throughout the season.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And that's the crazy part. And when I look at
different you know, it's only so much that you can
do in the game, all right. And when I look
at Pop with Popper Pop did down in San Antonio,
a lot of that was triangle based, you feeling, and
that's that's the whole thing about it. But now once
again the game game goes in cycles, you know what
(32:44):
I mean. And I don't fight it. You know, this
generation is this generation. You play the way you play,
You energize the way your energize. But I would, I
would threaten to say that just from a intellectual standpoint,
from a a standpoint where this is what was demanded
of you as players. It's a lot different now. You know,
(33:07):
when I look at how many days of training camp
do you guys.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Have, it's a week or less, seven to ten, max.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Think about that, Okay. Now, in nineteen eighty nine, I
was traded to the Milwaukee Bucks and we had thirty
days of two days. Thirty days.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
I start aking, we have two, we have two, and
people start complaining.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Man, I'm talking about and Don Nelson. It wasn't no
this ain't no walkthrough. This is you know, it was
such with Don Nelson that we would have a two
and a half hour practice in a preseason game and
he just tell you don't give a damn about that
preseason game, you know what I'm saying. But we were
going to But for me, it was one of those
(33:57):
things that that was what the demands were. Then this
is what the demands are. Now it's about you know
what do y'all call it? Uh uh? Time management? Load management?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Spurs came up with that turn, oh man.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
And that's the and that's the part where I'm saying,
you know, Okay, the game is the game. But then
capitalism is capitalism. You know what I'm saying. I'm gonna
milk this opportunity to make sure that I'm at my
tip top going into the point where we can make
the most money possible. It's crazy. I know, like the league.
The League is hating the fact that it's Indiana and
Oklahoma City. I know they hated it.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
They couldn't be happy about that one.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Well, we come back from break, you're gonna find out
who is fluent. Craig Hodges to be the activist that
he is today, not to jump back around, but I
(34:59):
wanted to talk about the very first championship that you
was a part of, right just to I guess speak
on whether it's is truth or fact, Game one, protesting
about you know, approaching MJ and magic about you know,
potentially sitting out because obviously it's the LA riots going
on at that time.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So for me, it was one of the things where
you just spoke about Bill Russell and what he did
and as far as so within the history of us
as players in the NBA, there have been times within
that history where certain players took that position, whether it
was Bill Russell in the hotel situation or whether it
was Jerry West and Elgin Baylor at All Star Game
(35:41):
that started our union. So those are the things that
ran through my mind that at that point in time,
twenty one or the twenty four athletes that was getting
ready to play that night was us, and that we
didn't have. How many upper management positions did we have,
how many positions we have in the television sector where
we have senior executives that can be that can move
(36:02):
up in TNT or whatever it is in that sector.
How much of impact can we have as players to
go about doing things like that. So the morning, and
you know, the way the championship plays out is that
you practice in the NA practice. So prior to our practice,
I asked HIMJ As we're going out, yo, man, you know,
(36:23):
if we boycott tomorrow night, we can get some we
can get some concessions made, man, because if we don't
walk out on that court at twenty minutes, they're gonna say, oh,
they're just playing mental games. If neither team comes out
by fifteen minutes, somebody's saying, oh, what's happening. And I'm
saying that with you and Magic man, they can't deny us.
(36:48):
All right, MJ. Now that's a bit extreme, Hutch. Okay, cool,
I got you. Let's go and do what we're gonna do.
It is what it is. And then after after we
got off the court, Magic them were coming on court
and I, you know, put it to him and he
was the same thing. It was. It was almost somewhat dismissive,
you know what I'm saying. And it wasn't. It was
(37:10):
one of the things that had never crossed his mind.
So in hindsight, In hindsight, I should have did it
by myself. You know what, I'm saying, but I was
caught up into I know how important I was to
my squad too at that time, so it was about
if we're gonna do this, we gonna do this and
not just gonna be me.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, you mentioned a lot about the brotherhood too, so
you know what I mean. If this is a true brotherhood,
then you're gonna support your brother. You know what I
mean in this situation.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Seth TEI you man, it's it's you know, it is
a brotherhood, man, It's it really is when you when
you put on that we say that logo, when you
put that logo on, man, it's a certain it's a
certain fraternal order to it. And you know it's something
that you know, it's something that not to be slighted.
It's something that you know you can you can be
(37:57):
you can be cool with that. You had part of
that Hit Street on your resume, and at the same time,
it's okay, what do you do with it? You know
what did you just you know, like for me when
I one of the things that really insulted me was
when they told Lebron to just shut up and dribble.
You know what I'm saying, and what I'm saying, you know,
you can, you are You're able to say that because
you're sitting in that you shouldn't in that position of authority,
(38:19):
and you have the you know, you got the bully
pull up it to say that. But that's not necessarily
how this thing rolls out. You know, we can impact
our people by more ways than just dribbling and shooting jumpers,
and we can prove it. And now it's not even
a matter of proving it to you, it's a matter
of proving it to ourselves that we're capable of doing this.
And not only capable, but we will.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
Yeah, when we talk about brotherhood, you in the locker
room with those people every day, MJ all your teammates,
I mean, they know who you are, they know you
knowledgeable about the situation. It's not something you coming up
with off of whim like never, it's something that really
means something. So they should have known like this is
something real. So we got to take it with a
little bit more seriously.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
And the cool part for me, you know, one of
the things John Paxson I did a documentary it's still
in it's still in limbo or whatever, but John was
was a part of the documentary, and I was glad
that he participated because for me, he was He and
I were We were an example of what teammates should
be because we were always cognizant of what the surrounding
(39:27):
energies were going on, you know, whether it be him
and we'll Purdue and what they were feeling as white
culture and what we were over here feeling. But at
the same time, Wood is the basketball culture that needs
to go on. So one of my you know, one
of my cool teammates, was packed because he and I
(39:50):
what I what I gave to him was the information
of hey man, this is where we come from. You know.
He and he and one of my best friends were
McDonald's all Americans together and been through all camp stuff together,
so we had somewhere to bond from that end. But
I was always one that I'm excited about reading and
getting information, man, So I don't care black, white, brown,
or yellow. When I get this somebody, I'm excited about it.
(40:13):
I'm excited about this, just like I'm excited about us whinning.
So when I share this, I'm sharing this with everybody.
So it was it wasn't like anybody was surprised when
I gave the president letter. None of my teammates were
none of it. None of them. But at the same time,
only one of my teammates, and I'm gonna say his name,
Horace Grant, is the only person that has approached me.
(40:33):
And he approached me called me about this like five
years ago. Man. He called me in Chicago and he's like, man,
you and shop. I was like, yeah, man, I'm here.
He's like, man, I want to take you to dinner.
I was like, all right, cool. So he told me
where the meeting and I met him and it was
him and the Sun, and he's like, man, I wanted
my son to be here, and I wanted to apologize
to you for leaving you out there by yourself. Man,
(40:57):
we knew what you were doing. We knew you wasn't
no radical, crazy brother. We knew that it was about
you being born and raised in Chicago. And we win
in the championship in Chicago, and you're feeling more about
us winning this thing than anybody. So you know, I
grew up a Bulls fan where we weren't winning nothing.
It was Jerry Sloan, Norm van Leier, Tom Boorlwinkle, but
(41:21):
it was basketball you know. So for me it was
that it was that part that kept me inspired. But
also Jim Man, just to know that, hey, this road
that we own, man, this road that you're own. Were
y'all spreading this knowledge and information? Man, it ain't no
paying that. And you know what I'm saying, the payers,
the payers, the wealth and the relationship that we build
from doing this and knowing that, hey man, we're on
(41:44):
the right side of history. We're on the right side
of the defensive this one. This is not a transactional thing.
This is transitional, you know. And I think that's one
of the things that had happened to us, is especially
as black man, we become so transactional that I got
to get a quick hit. I got to get it,
hey man, can I make Come on man, we can't
be transactional for ninety years, brother, We got to We
gotta be able to build something that's transitional for our
(42:06):
children and our women. I tell people all the time,
we are the only people on the face of the
earth who don't have a plan for our women and
our children, especially from a security and especially from the
end of being able to feed and shelter them. So
we got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 4 (42:22):
I mean, I'm glad you brought that up as far
as uh you're talking about Horus and and him knowing
how much you want to win, even though you're a
convictions to pulling you something that's more important. Because I
was with I was around Kyrie and the teammate with
him in Brooklyn when he was going through the whole
COVID thing and a couple other scanners off the floor
and he was getting a big like the fans were
on them heavy because it's like he don't really want
(42:44):
to win. He don't care about who's he getting paid
all this money, and nobody wanted, nobody work harder, nobody
want to win more than Kyrie.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
It's just this means more. It's more important than him, right.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
And that's that's part. It's similar to yeah, and for me,
and make sure, man, you know, make sure you give
him my info, man, because I want to speak type brother.
I've been seeing him from far but we never got
to speak, and I wanted to tell him, you know
how much I appreciated the fact that you know, you
took a courageous stance, man. And not only that, but
(43:15):
I tell people it's a real tightrope. Man, It's a
tight rope of being able to as you studying at
three o'clock in the morning, and this information is hitting
you and you can't deny it because it's God send,
all right, and you know that I have to do
something with it. Damn. I got practice at nine thirty,
you know what I'm saying, And that practice at nine thirty,
(43:37):
I'm getting ready to go out here and I'm gonna
do my thing and to be able to and I
tell people from me. When I was at Long Beach State, man,
I truly felt that the more I studied about my people,
the better my game got, the better my shooting became
because it wasn't me just doing it for me. And
you know, even to the point of us winning championships
(44:00):
that first one, y'all, they wouldn't have won it without
a hotch. And this ain't no boastful thing, but it's
a thing of knowing that in order to get to
our spacing, to get to the movement of it, to
know that when the balls here, we got these movements
that you can read from that. Y'all didn't know that
until I gave y'all at So when I'm telling them, Jay,
You're gonna be able to get off from this elbow.
(44:21):
You're gonna be able to post up when we need
you to post up, and you're gonna be able to
get there without it being any struggle of you having
to fight through three or four people. And that's the
part of it that I say that, you know, I've
been blessed to have great coaching all the way through.
Steve Fisher was my high school coach that coached the
five five in San Diego State, So I had great
(44:42):
mentorship in the game. So I played the game in
that way when I think about man just to say this,
had I got another two years after that, I wasn't
gonna pass to anybody. And that was my mindset that
when I'm on the court, I'm gonna shoot it just
like everybody else, but I'm gonna try to put up
as many shots as I could.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back,
we're gonna talk about the legacy of Craig Hawks. From
a legacy standpoint, what do you think athletes just are
(45:22):
just black men in general, you know out here? From
a legacy standpoint, what do you think we need to
do moving forward like as far as like obviously we
have a bigger platform to teach and speak on certain
things and things that we truly care about, especially in
the inner cities and everything else.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
One of the things I think of man that you know,
just when I look at other nations of people man
and how it's no, okay, really you have three white
guys in the room. They're all different business man, but
if somebody sees something happen that's gonna affect three, they
come together and they say, you know what I'm saying
(46:03):
and where we are? We I was, like I said,
I was blessed man born be born in June twenty seventh,
nineteen sixty. So I saw black love and unity. I
saw that. So I saw it as a reality, and
I saw how it was built. So when I'm sitting
here at sixty four and I'm looking what Donald Trump
(46:23):
is doing, when I'm looking what Elion Musk is doing,
when I'm looking with Vladimir Prutin is doing, when I
look what the bricks nations are doing, I'm looking at
the demise of a Western empire. Because all the empires fail,
all empires have shelf life. And when we look at
what's going on for that? Then I look at our
connection to Africa. Are we going to build upon that?
(46:47):
So I love what the African brothers in the league
are doing with basketball Africa. You feel me. They are
saying we are going to control that energy on our content.
Who could be mad at that? There's no And the
part from me is that it's an example of what
I was asking brothers to do in the eighties when
(47:09):
I went to almost every every summer meeting I went to,
I gave a proposal to do things within the community.
I'm talking about extensive. But you know what I got.
Our union is a political I got that. Okay, So
we don't support no political campaigns and all that type
of stuff. But what type of things are we doing
(47:30):
programmatically across the country in these NBA cities that could
be conducive to the growth of these young folks. So
when I look at when we where we are right now,
I think with the wealth and status that we have,
there are ways that we can unify ourselves. And this
is where it starts. Man. You know, when I'm like
(47:50):
I said, I'm sixty four, man, I'm not you brothers.
Now you know what I'm saying, and and we as elders,
we got to be or let y'all handle the business
and we be yo, man, where y'all need me at?
What type of info can I provide? This is the
experience I had when I was dealing with these people
this way. Now. Like, for instance, I had a conversation
(48:12):
with one of my teammates and I'm not gonna say
his name because I don't want to put them out
there like that, but he's within the system. So he
says to me, you know, Hodge, what I saw was
how much they was punching back when you were just
standing on things. So for me, I looked at it
and said, I ain't going to see where the money is.
(48:34):
And I ain't got no problem with that. Now, where
you see what the money is, what can we do
and how do we channel and funnel some of that
money back into our community in terms of you know,
banks and goods and servicings like you said, financial literacy,
you know stuff that you know, when I look at
my black study regimen that I learned at Long Beach State,
I could have had that in fourth grade. You know
(48:56):
what I'm saying. Some of these civic things that we
learning now. We could have had when we were long.
We could have had that as young folk people. But
it was a certain it was a certain cadre of
people that didn't want us to have that that gave
us these thigments of our imagination, you know, George Washington,
all of these mythological things that we grabbed hold one of.
(49:19):
Like for me, you know, the they taught me that
doing others as you would have others doing to you,
that's the golden rule. Then Donald Trump comes in the
office and tells us he who has the gold rules. Okay,
you could have gave us. You could have gave us early.
You could have gave us early, and I wouldn't have
been thinking like, hey, how you doing today? Hey how
(49:41):
you doing? When they're thinking how can I get something
out of you today? You hear me, how can I
get your gold out of you today? Whether you be
Bokino Fasso, or whether you be Zimbabwe, or whether you
be South Africa. You know, they need the minerals that
Africa has. Now, Okay, they have the minerals. We had,
have the knowledge base, and we have the marketability. Nothing,
(50:05):
nothing in this Western Empire would roll without you. Okay,
they get the minerals and you we are the models
in the marketing for their products. It's wow when we
look at it, man. But today it's a different day.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Man.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
African people are African people, and we're coming back into
that consciousness of how we built stuff in the beginning.
We got to build it again.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
They're going back to what you said about doing stuff
in the communities, using retired players and the whole system
and brotherhood. It shouldn't be too hard to do because
they always got to. They use retire players all the
time for corporate events. You got to appearance to check here,
check there. It shouldn't be like this needs to be
continued to be pushed to like the PA to NBA
because they it's resources to be able to do it.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
And you know, one of the things that you know
in the very very near future, brother, it's some stuff
that's going on that I definitely want to share with y'all,
but it's a little bit of it too early to
do it. But I want to make sure that you
know we come back and regroup, man, because one of
the things that's going on now, and like I said,
I was I was blessed to be in the sixties
(51:14):
and see what black love was. The music that we
had was all channel to us getting together and to
know that we got to be able to do that
and recapture that again. It's got it. It can't be
no more beefing, man. We got And when I think
about beefing and growing up with I grew up, I said,
I could I imagine Stevie Wonder beefing with Smoky you
(51:34):
know you know what I'm saying, Man, Smokey battling with Marvin.
What's up?
Speaker 3 (51:42):
That's a good point because you don't get you don't
get what's the cookout songs?
Speaker 4 (51:45):
Now?
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Man?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
What's the what's the good to go?
Speaker 2 (51:50):
You know? Talking about itself about raps like collaborative competition, man.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
And you know one of the things too, is I
look at I look at Okay, I look at Okay,
the nineteen fifty players. They was grooving on Miles Davis,
Thelonious Monk. You know what I'm saying, We were grooving
on Stevie. And then I look at how the game
he is now boo. And that's the way I'm looking
(52:15):
at how the how is played and the comparative analysis
how the game is played and once you look at
it out. Brothers who are hoopers would love to be singers,
and singers would love to be hoopers, and how they
intertrne within our culture. And we see it, man, we
see like when I was playing, when we were playing,
the music colleague for the seventy six ers was Grove Washington.
(52:38):
You know what I'm saying. So we coming in and
he blowing the national anthem and they getting beached on that.
So it's a total different vibration. And how that whole
vibration fstance. Colin Kaepernick takes a knee, the commissioner sits
down with jay Z and give us halftime. Yeah, okay, Doug,
(53:01):
that's a concession. Okay, But even to that point, I'm saying, okay, well,
at least he got something out of it. What I
got out of it when I stood up was you
got to find an agent that joke. And then I'm thinking,
I'm like, damn you the representative my union couldn't represent
me to get a contract. What's up? But it is
(53:22):
what it is. Man. I'm glad you brothers doing what
y'all doing, man, because y'all on the cutting edge is
something that you know this next generation is gonna be
able to look to and it ain't seeing it, you know.
And Gil Scott here and said a long time ago
the revolution wouldn't be televised, but we didn't know about internet,
you know what I'm saying. So people ain't watching that
CNN and ABC and all that, but they getting it
(53:44):
through a different vibe.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Absolutely, I want to say happy Birthday in advance. But
then also, how do you feel about you know, June
team becoming the national holiday and obviously watching it progress
through through the United States.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yeah, and it's it's it's cool, man. And I think
one of the things that's that uh, you know, liberation
is liberation, you know, and that deliberation of thought more
than anything else, and that what we say, truth crushed,
the earth is gonna rise. So in the time of
this rising, man, it's good to see, you know, good
to see our people able to know that, you know,
(54:22):
we were we were bamboozled again, but now we're able
to say, hey, y'all bamboozled us. But now were able
to you know, get ourselves together and we can stand
up on you know, what our ancestors died for and
we're freed for. So you know now we are really
at that point of true freedom and it's what we're
gonna do about it and with it.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
It has been great talking with mister Craig Hodges. Happy
June team to all our listeners. We are going to
cut off part one here, but we will be back
next week with more from Craig Hodges. We get into
an incredible three point contest success where he went up
against Larry Bird Crush, Michael Jordan and competed without even
being on an NBA team. Plus we talk about why
(55:04):
he thinks his ninety one Bulls team is the best
ever doer. See you next week, go.
Speaker 5 (55:20):
This has been a Unanimous Media original. GOP was produced
by iHeart Podcasts and Unanimous Media. It was hosted by
Me Trevon Edwards and step Kirk. Executive produced by Stephen
Curry and Eric Katon. Co executive producer Colenna Maria Cutting.
The executive producers.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
At iHeart Podcasts are Sean Titone and Jason English. This
series was produced by Derrick Jennings and Peter Cutcher, Co
producer Kurt Redney.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
Original music by Jesse Woodard.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
Special thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Special shout
out to Scott Rochelle and the NBRPA for preserving our
walking libraries by granting access to their stories at this
Thanks to Philip Alexander for his booking assistance on this episode.
Goat is a production of Unanimous Media and iHeart Podcasts.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(56:13):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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