August 7, 2025 • 47 mins
There is a fraternity within the NBA fraternity comprised of a particular breed of relentless, scrappy individuals who have made a way out of seemingly no way. These men are the Swiss Army Knives of the league, readily adaptable by any means necessary to contribute to their ball club however needed. This is a unique club that our very own host, Seth Curry, is a proud member of— a distinction he touts as a badge of honor rather than a marker of shame. This elite club is the Mud Boyz, more commonly known as undrafted players in the league. They started from the bottom and are STILL here! Today, we sit with special guest C.J. Watson to discuss the most notable players who went undrafted throughout the 2000’s. You won’t want to miss this discussion!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'll never forget I was we talked about journeyman. I was.
We were playing the Warriors one year.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm at the free throw line and I'm, you know,
Draymond out there and We're going back and forth.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
He talking.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I get found might go to an one Erson. I
say something to him and I'm at the free throw line.
He's like, why are you talking? You're a journeyman. You
know every team in the league.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It was funny. It was funny for steps right there.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It was kind of awkward, like Draymond, that's my guy,
but he gonna talk and me on the floor, so
talking back to Hi'm a German, but I like set
back to him, like that's a badge of honor for me.
You know how many guys you know that have been
on two teams and out the league? Like I'd rather
be on eight nine teams have a twelve year career then,
like like he said, be one and done.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So I take pride in it.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Welcome back to another episode of Greatest of Their Era?
What up, Doc?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
What up?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Tray?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
We got a good episode today. Man, I'm excited about
this one.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Man.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, the ma Alley undrafted guys got a great guest
today was going.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Off, yeah man, before he even saying anything. Man, we
got CJ. Watson. He played internationally before becoming a ten
year NBA veteran that played in six hundred games for
five teams over the course of his career. Started his
career joining the Warriors just after the We Believe playoff run,
and were still with the team during Steph's rookie season
(01:21):
before I agreeing to assigning trade to Chicago the next summer.
You received a few six minutes of a year award
of votes in twenty eleven and twenty twelve, and you
are one of the goat consider it of the undrafted
two thousands. Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
CJ. Watson, Oh man, appreciate for having me. Thank you
all a lot.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah man. So we got two undrafted guys who you know, Obviously,
when you don't get drafted, the likelihood of staying in
the league is very difficult. It's a difficult road. It's
not guaranteed that you're gonna, you know, make it. And
I'm sitting here with two guys that have played ten
years and ten years plus in NBA. Uh, how's that like?
(02:04):
Speaking towards that as far as being then undrafted guy,
how do you feel being around some people that were
first round picks that aren't didn't even make it past
maybe four or five seasons.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Personally, I take pride in it as an undrafted guy.
It ain't like looking back on obviously, when you in
the draft, you want to get drafted. You want to
get have a team invested in you and have a
little bit of easier pass or whatnot. But looking back,
I'm proud of just going that route I did playing
in the D League for a couple of years. It
wasn't even the G like it is now is the
D League, and you had to grind it out. Like
(02:34):
I want to ask CJ this, we got them here now?
Like for me, I had of when I was in
the G and I don't know, you played like a
year in the.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
G League, right, I played one month?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
One month? Okay?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So like what, like what kind of traits do you
see in guys like yourself on the other guys like
who are undrafted and had to go to the G
to earn their way to get the opportunity in the league, Like,
what are some things those guys have in common?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
You just see the appreciation for the game, for the
process because and the de league man, that was a
definitely grind. I think we were still taking buses everywhere.
We wasn't flying playing, So it's a grind to get there.
And when you're playing something like that, obviously your dream
is get to the NBA, but you respected so much
more when you actually get there and you know you
have the nice things, and now it's just easier for
(03:19):
you to work. Now you just put all your work
into the grind and you know, get better each and
every day.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, I agree, Like for me, it was it was
always I had to like find joy and playing the game,
like you gotta really love it to play in the
g and get you get out of there.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Like it was.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So many teammates and guys I've seen who could hoop
but then love and ended up like either quitting or
going or just their career was over just because they
couldn't last they didn't love the game enough to go
through that grind.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I definitely think like so many guys fighting for one
or two call ups, so you know everybody's on the
same same page, and I think that's just the bad
part about only one of y'all is one of us
is gonna get picked or two maybe, you know, so
it's not a whole bunch like the whole team like
it should be.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So you mentioned call up right when and being in
that position right and you know, like clearly both of
you guys can score the ball. When you think about
what teams really need, what was your approach in there,
like did you feel like, hey, how do I, you know,
make an impression for a team to call me up?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
What was going through your mind during that process?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Ejer. For me, it was just I wanted to work
on all the things that the GMS and the president
said I wasn't good at, and I wanted to, you know,
make those things better. It really wasn't about any particular
team needing to fit or whatever that case. I think
right when I kind of got called up, it was
kind of like the transition of the point guard being
like a scorer. I was more taught to a point
guard facilitator first, and then you know, you score in
(04:40):
bunches or whatever the case may be. But I was
at the time where Russ was coming in d Row's steph.
They were shooters and scorers, so I was more of
a traditional PG. So I had to like change my
mentality from being a person who can set people up
and score at the same time, just going into scoring
and then worry about setting people up later.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Oh that's crazy. So I don't even know.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I feel like you was all just a natural score
watching you come in, Like, so you telling me you
when you first came in, you were more like the
traditional PG. You were trying to to set guys up
and run the te any more.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, because you that was like a time of CP
three and Steve Nash, you know, and Ja Kidds. So
it was like point guards. You got to run the show,
you know, be an extension of the coach on the
on the court, but also you know, score, you know,
whatever you need to but w still be aggressive and stuff.
But yeah, I wanted to be like CP three and
all those guys. So they were you know, traditional point
guards like Rondo stuff like that. So I just had
to change my mindset to being a score because they
(05:31):
said that's what they wanted more from me. So I said,
that's what you want, I'm gonna give you whatever you want.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Was it like super like And I can relate to
this when I played in college. I think that was
the hardest adjustment of being more selfish right and being aggressive.
How hard did it, like, basically, how long did it
take for you to adjust your game into like another
archetype of like, yo, I got to score the ball,
you know what I mean? Because playing overseas sometimes they
expect Americans over you know, to score the ball. So
(05:58):
how was it all harder switched once you you know,
got into the g and I mean we the d
League at the time and then went from that thing,
or you already was kind of adjusted from the time
playing overseas.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah, I think it took a couple of months maybe
just to get that back in that mindset of mode
of just being aggressive attacking the basket at all times,
you know, not attacking the basket to pass, but to score.
So I think, like I said, it only took a
couple months. But you know, once that mindset was built
into me, and that's what they said they wanted from
me to try and get to that next level. I said,
I easily can make the switters. Need to know what
(06:31):
I need to work on or why I wasn't why
I wasn't drafted, just.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Talk about my situation and like that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Like for me, it was I was like I was
out with two guard and heightened college and coming out
and undersize two guarden, it was the same boat. Like
people were telling me they wanted me to play more
point guard than the G and C, that I can
handle the ball and run more pick and roll. And
I did that and that got me the opportunity to
get into the league. But once I got to the league,
I was shooting the ball so well and they moved
me back to the two.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So like for me, it was just I had to
be adaptable every single year, every situation I was into.
It was not like one set role that I was
going to be in. Every year, it felt like it changed,
and I.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Think my adaptability was able was one of the reasons
I was able to last and stick in the league.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Did you have any fear that potentially the game would
swing back to the traditional point guard again and just
be like, you know, kind of not take away a
strength of yours, but just like you know, you have
to get back into you know, bringing the ball up
or running the offense for a potential team.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And I didn't have fear because I feel like I could,
Like I said, I was adapted. I feel like I
could do whatever you wanted me to do. Like it's
like I had the smart enough IQ and my skill
level was enough. Like if you wanted to go out
there and play the point for a few games, I
could do that. If you wanted me to go out
there and spot up and shoot the ball, run off screens,
I felt like I could do that. So for me,
I was doing I was really doing whatever it took
and whatever they asked me to do on a nightly basis.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I felt like now coming off the hypo we believe
and joining that Warriors team and expectations and got the
Montees the beads of the world, where did you feel
like looking around, especially from the Guard's perspective, how you
were going to fit in and adjust? What was your
like mindset, you know, playing Finelli and all that, Like
just your approach coming in as an undrafted guy.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
It was fun, man, Like a lot of people don't
know this, but I got called up by two teams.
Actually when I got the call, so the Warriors supposed
to call me up in the Bobcats Charlote Bobcats at
the time, so but the Warriors just pulled the trigger faster,
So it was fun. Like I didn't even think about
like getting on playing time or where I would fit in.
I just wanted to. I was just glad I got
a call up and got a chance to go out
(08:33):
there and play. But as soon as I got there,
Coach Nelson just told me, you know, I'm gonna throw
you in the fire and see what it see how
it works. If it works, you know. I think I
was mostly there just to give Bead some some relief
because they was playing him a lot of minutes in
that year and he was injured a lot. So uh
But like I said, I love playing with those guys,
and it was fun to come in and just get
my feet up with that team and that that coach.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And that's one thing people don't understand about, Like all
you need is one one opportunity, one coach, one one
system to believe in you, and it's gonna show in
a lot of people we talk about on this list,
as far as go to the two thousands of undrafted guys,
like they got an opportunity in one spot, and a
lot of them just stuck in that system just because
(09:15):
that's that's what worked for him. Like they went to
a different situation, a different team, it might not have
worked out. But like for me, in my case, I
have the keys call me up. And now I went
to Rick, Carlisle and Dallas who really believed in me.
He wasn't afraid to play small guards, multiple in the
back court, and I mean worked out for me.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
All right, Well, you know we got a chance to
you know, go through both of you guys' journey. Now
we get to talk about some undrafted greats of the
two thousands and maybe CJ has faced to get faced
off against some dot Maybe you faced off against some
of these guys, so we can kind of speak towards it.
But the first person we talk about is Emailed, you
know what I mean. He came in the league in
(09:53):
two thousand and three, he started seventy five games with
the seven year NBA career. Se did you ever get
a chance to face off against.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah, I faced off a couple of times when you
play for the Spurs. So yeah, he's always I mean,
just like he coaches, he's a tough He's a tough player,
so he's a tough coach. He was basically like you know,
a three D guy back in San Antonio, before that
terms even came out. So, uh, he was one of
those hard nose type guys.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, so I was about to say the exact same
thing he played away he coached like just hard nose, tough.
I remember, like a few years ago, were playing him
in the playoffs and I'm over close to him talking
to the ref. Next thing, you know, he talked to
me at the same I'm like, you a coach. You
don't see it every day where a coach is talking
to opposing players, and you see it all the.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Time with him on the sideline.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
He got that firey personality and he feels like he
got something to prove as a coach the same way
he played so on.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
His own he had to grind it up.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah. Absolutely. Before I say this next name, I wanted
to talk about the importance of a journeyman. Right. Sometimes
feels like it's a negative stain on it, but I
think it's like almost like an honorary kind of badge
because like that means like teams, you know, like pretty
much like they respect you, you know what I mean, Like
you're gonna end up you keep a job, you know
(11:10):
what I mean. In the league, and most people look
at it almost as the negativity, like man, he's collecting
jerseys or he keep a job, you know what I mean.
And like one of the names that always used to
come to my mind was is Smith. Right, Smith will
always just end up. You'd be like, dang man, like,
I don't know what he's doing at this part of
his career, but he getting signed. Like how y'all feel
(11:30):
about you know, maybe falling in the category of a
journeyman and just like just being a trusted I feel
like it's just like a trusted person that you can
kind of call on when that job is needed, you
know what I mean, whether you working out in the
summer and they need that like last roster spot, and
they know that you're going to be effective later on
down the line. Like I think that's just like a
it's one and probably one of the most underrated positions.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I mean, I think it's great. I think I'd rather
be a journeyman than be a one and done or
two and done something like that. So I definitely think,
you know, I think it's just about staying ready to
whenever you're ready, when your numbers called, whether that's in
the off season or during the season, when somebody gets
hurt and you perform. I think that's the that's the
best thing. And uh, everyone one that keeps on to
you is uh just a tested to your your loyal
(12:15):
your loyalty and also your trustworthy. So as a trustworthy employee,
you know, do what I need to do.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, I'll never forget. I was we talked about journeyman.
I was.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
We were playing the Warriors one year and I'm at
the free throw line and I'm you know, Draymond out
there and We're going back and forth. He talking. I
get faun. I might go to a one erson I
say something to him and I'm at the free throw line.
He's like, why are you talking? You're a journeyman. You
know every team in the league.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It was funny.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It was funny for step was right there. It was
kind of awkward, like Draymond, that's my guy. But he
gonna talk and we on the floor, so right, talk
back to him a German, but I like set back
to him, like that's a badge of honor for me.
You know how many guys you know that have been
on two teams and out the league, like I'd rather
be on eight nine teams have a twelve year career then, like,
like he said, be one and done.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So I take pride in it, and yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Yeah, I also think the cool part about playing for
multiple teams is that you just get a different experience
than everybody else. You get what I'm saying, You get
to you know, sometimes y'all only get to go there
two times, four times. But when you get to play
for these different teams and experience it throughout the you know,
especially if it's a lilit city you like all right,
you know you can benefit that. And if you've ever
(13:25):
been on like a playoff team or you just want
to be with one team your entire career. It's that
curiosity now that you see star guys like finally dipping
their toe and saying, maybe I'll go over here because
the grass is always greener. But y'all can actually kind
of test them, like, oh man, I play over there. Man,
it was cool. I had a cool experience. I really
didn't like you know this that man, They training staff
is really good, Like I mean, you guys got to
(13:46):
see it from from from different aspects.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, being a journeyman, like I said, you get to
see different cities, different franchises, see who does it well,
who doesn't want who doesn't do it well? And if
you get a chance to go back to one of
those franchises, and you already know, so I said, I'm
sure anybody you know, sitting on the couch or playing hoops, whoever,
would rather be a journeyman than not be a journeyman.
So I definitely, you know, like you said, it's a
badger honor and it's a test to the hard work
(14:11):
you put in.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
All right, this next player, you Donnis Housen, journeyman, not
a journeyman, got stayed home. Debut came in two thousand
and three, after playing internationally. UD's career spans over eight
hundred and seventy nine NBA games, play which he actually
started a total of five hundred and one times, although
he sparently over his last few years in Miami, UD
(14:37):
has garnered a few DePoy votes, especially in six o seven.
He's a champion. I think he is the heart and
soul Miami. But I got a chance to watch him
in Florida, you know what I mean, when he was
coming off those championship teams and whatnot, you know what
I mean, and just being kind of a pivotal player,
you know what I mean. But just going to Miami
and embodying it through and through even to the end,
(15:00):
you know what I mean. And we talked about designated
VET spots, like how important that would be to the
current NBA you know what I mean, Like see that
what's your thought on Like if it was a guaranteed
spot for a year twelve and up guy for each team,
because it's getting younger and we see it as like
(15:21):
the lack of leadership, the lack of you know, veterans
in the locker room, so some things are breaking down.
You get more off the court issues, and you know,
I think that teams could benefit from it, you know
what I mean, having a guy like you know, both
you guys, but also UD and how effective it was
for the culture of Miami.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, I definitely think it's needed. I think I look
at it both ways, Like you know, having a VET
on the team, can he can give you all the
experience he went through and give you some ups and downs,
good and bad, and hopefully you don't make the same
you know, choices and do better. So I definitely look
at that from that perspective also, but also look at
it from like maybe if a younger player could get
a shot, a VET is taking that up, you know,
and taking that away from so. But yeah, I definitely
(16:02):
think they're needed on each team. Like you said, the
league is getting younger and younger, and I think, you know,
having that wisdom and that experience and knowledge to be
able to get back and tell guys, you know, helping
guy's accountable. I think it's the biggest thing, you know,
telling guys are messing up, but when you can do better.
So I think that's definitely needing the locker room and
not right now it's just a whole bunch of I
pointing fingers and everybody wants to be cool and homies
instead of you know, really having tough conversations.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, but I'm thinking about u D like he really
transformed everything to have a long career, Like when he
came in here, he transformed his body, got in shape,
and then just went through Miami. Played every role in
that team, whether it was starter, six man, coming off
the bench, not playing at all towards the end of
his career, like he was really doing whatever it took
to stick it out and do what they asked of
(16:45):
him in Miami. So He definitely a legend into three
oh five.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And he got to shut up some love.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, we climbing up the ladder. This
is a deep cut Jose. Jose he debuted in five. Uh,
you know, one of considerably in the conversation, a top
twenty undrafted player of all time when you factor in
production and the fact that he started nearly six hundred
(17:12):
of eight hundred ninety five NBA games, played for seven
teams over a fourteen year career, but peaked with Raptors
and Mavericks.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
You mentioned that Calderon was tough, like what was your
experienced garden Calderon.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Man, he was just solid man. He was knocked down
the three ball, can take you off the dribble. He
would reject the picks all the time. When his game
in the pick and roll was so crafty because he
was from overseas. It was just like, you know, he
was tough to guards, just when he had some some
other weapons on this team that could scored the ball
in Biggs to pass to you because he was always tough.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
For me, he was one of those first to like
you talk about crafty to pick he would like hold
you off. Yeah, yeah, screen just do that crab dribble
for a long time. But one of my memories of Jose,
like because I played with Kyrie when's one year, dude,
and his first game after he was drafted that next
year was against Jose Calderons. So he gets to the
league and Kyrie ready to go, like he feeling himself.
(18:04):
He gets to that first game and Jose gave him
the business. That was what we were all watching the
game and Duke and he was he was going to
work on Kai and that was kind of Kyle's wealking
to the league moment. Obviously after he was a little
nervous or whatever, but he took off from there. But
that just showed you like guys like Jose and all
those are true pros, and no matter number one pick
coming into the league, that's the people you gotta deal
(18:25):
with on a nightly basis.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I mean those type of guards man or stay ready,
straight pros, you know what I mean, whether you think
that's a big name or not. Like even just having
a fourteen year career and starting all those games, like
that's the trusted employee. Like we talked about, Man just
relied on. He had some big shots, especially in Toronto,
you know what I mean. But also you know what
I mean, like overall just playing and having his number call,
(18:49):
like he would end up with a starting job, and
you know, like the ball gonna be taken care of,
the offense gonna be ring, gonna shoot it, he gonna
do what he needs to do, like you said, be
a tearing at pick and rolling to pick and pop,
et cetera. It's just just just a hard assignment.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Man.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
It's it probably need to get your sleep because he's
gonna run around too, you know what I mean, and
make you work. So I think that's a whole other
conversation in itself. The next player we're talking about is
Damian wilkins Uh. He played internationally as well. I think
this is a theme, a running theme. A lot of
guys went across the water to get their feet wet,
become pros, and then come back and just very season.
(19:26):
He had a solid ten year career. He played for
sixteams overstretch, started one hundred and fifty games. And he
also you know, got a chance to play for the
you know, Seattle SuperSonics, which is you know, a long
time ago, you know what I mean to some of
our fans that might be listening didn't even know that
was a franchise. But uh, Damian Wilkins man, you know,
(19:47):
obviously had those genetics of being athletic, but also you know,
probably one of the guys that was in the archetype
of defense and just kind of just getting you a
getting you a put back or you know, knocking down
a jumper here and there. You know what I mean.
I think he had a three ball, but I gotta
go back and look at the table.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Y'all.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Remember Damian Wilkins.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I remember I played against him and the G.
Now I played against him and the G like after
his career, so he played like ten years in the
league and he was kind of on his way out
trying to stay in and I messed up against him
a few times in the G and it was just
a savvy vet man just still add it. Had a
little bit of everything to his game, yeah for sure.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, tough nose player and you know, always did the
dirty work and stuff like that. So yeah, I remember him,
Like he said, he got good gene, so he should
be should be in the NBA at least halfway there.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Yeah, man, you get that, you get that fresh start man.
You know, all the Wilkins man got it. They born
with a forty inch vert, so you know they get that.
For the jump man, you ain't go question else. I
think trying to make a jump shot and all other stuff.
And now that get tricky because you know, obviously the
game takes you away from the basket a little bit
further and further. And you know, like Damian, you know
(20:56):
he was. He was serviceable for some of them teams
that he played, you know, especially getting tho tough assignments
on the defensive end. This next guy, modesto, legend man.
I gotta give it up for California man Chuck Hayes
He got one of the ugliest free throw shooting routines.
But he played six hundred and forty four games for
three teams. I remember him definitely for the Houston years.
(21:17):
I mean he played for Sacramento in Toronto as well
over eleven year career. His speak year was twenty ten
to twenty eleven with the Rockets, essentially averaging eight points
a game, eight rebounds, and three assists. And he received
some votes for d Boy as well. Man Chuck Hayes
Man set some screens. He was in that body, you
(21:38):
know what I mean, might knock down a jumper that's
gonna throw you off, just because of the form and release.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
But he was one of those old school power forwards
we talked about in one of the previous episodes, like
this kind of this archetype of player, don't really on
the league, Like, ain't nobodies like like six. Yeah, that's
what I'm saying, Like, ain't nobody like him in the league,
And like anymore who's six? Like a true power forward,
not really a center, not a wing, but like he was,
(22:05):
like he could shoot the fifteen footer like you don't
he was.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
That's like a dying breed in the league.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Right, Yeah, for sure. I bet he gets chuck in
college too. So he was every time on the scouting report,
It's like, don't let him get to the offensive glass
and give them more opportunities to score. So he was
definitely a beast on the boards, and ex said, always
always tough.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
His next player NBA champion major for his country, JJ,
you know what I mean, International League Puerto Rican, you
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Did his thing?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Played in eight hundred and thirty one NBA games for
the MAVs and the Wolves not only won a title,
but he's also a productive member of the rotation contributed
to big moments.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
JJ one of my vets.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
JJ Barell like one of the guys you get to
the league and like, how is he in the league
at that size? You don't realize until you watch him
every night and you figure out, like he's he's like nice.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Like it was two things he did every night you
watched him.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
One he was gonna throw, he was gonna bring it
up and he's gonna throw the back door to Devin Harris.
Every night he's gonna get one of them back doors
to the Harris. And then two he was gonna if
you try to post them up, he's gonna draw charge.
So he had all the tricks in the book, like
he was gonna grab you and on the second bump
he was gonna flop and get a charge every single night,
and for whatever reason, the rest felt for So that's
the guy. Like I learned more tricks from him than
(23:22):
probably anybody else in the league.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah, he got it for sure. Man. I know
I put against him on Team USA after my first
year of college and he was killing for Puerto Rico.
Dan and then eventually years later playing against him in
the league, and it's like you said, he got all
the tricks. I remember a couple of times he took
a couple of charges on me and they wouldn't even
know closer, no way, it was no charge, but he
gonna sell it every time.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, he was a tricks to man.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
But nice, yeahh super nice.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
I was thinking about his just his size, man, right,
And it's the difficulty of just be getting it shot
off and all those other things. And obviously I know
everybody teasing Lebron about that that game. They're like, oh,
he can ain't get by jj Burrell or he only
had eight points on Jaji Bred and it's like nah,
but Jaji Bread is like sneaky strong. He got some
(24:06):
stuff that just your eyes just really can't tell. And
it's like NBA tricks man that just really worked. And
then he also knew when he can blow by guys
and get them points and just be effective in that
in that uh you know, that system that the Mavericks had.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And he found his role too, just like we've been
talking about the whole time. His role was designed and uh,
you know, he perfected it. He would pick you up
full court, you know, calls having on defense and then
the offense, you know, score, get the ball to the
people he needed to get to and knock down the
open jumper from time to time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, I remember talking to him like he could only
play he can only be himself and only could play
well in Dallas, because I remember, like he had that
good year in Dallas. It was a free agent, signed
a pretty good deal with Minnesota. He was in Minnesota
for like a year before he came back to Dallas
because he just couldn't he didn't feel comfortable. He couldn't
he couldn't be himself anywhere outside of Dallas and playing
for Rick. So I mean that just shows you like
(24:57):
a system that fits for you, you want to stay there
to extend your care Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
That's super interesting when you think about that. I mean,
like when you find a groove, and then obviously you
want to make the money man, because you never lead
the money on the table unless you know it's a
behind the closed doors deal with something that you got
going on. But that's very rare. You go take the
money and you end up coming back, and we've seen
that time after time, where you know, guys reunite with
their teams that they had success with. So yeah, it
(25:23):
was definitely something special connection in Dallas that he had
and how he showed up and how they let him
rock the next player Gary Hill to the shooters man,
you know what I'm saying. Neil played for six teams
over seven NBA career. Neil played in three hundred and
ninety two games, was a solid contributor throughout, averaging nine
(25:47):
points per game, top five and Roy Boldens and received
some six Men of the Year boltons in the second year.
So Gary Neil, I just he was solid dog Like
if you don't guard, he know, gonna shot your face
off straight up, Like you'd be like, all right, Gary
Neil about to check in? Gary Neil got how much?
That's That's how I'd be looking at Gary Neil most
(26:09):
of the time when I seen him.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
He could change a game, yeah for sure. And and
and I think definitely like when when the other guys
was injured, that's when he got to shine too. Like
he could come and have big games like the thirty
ball or twenty five and five or something like that.
So when those other guys was injured or didn't play,
he took advantage of the opportunity and you know, and
made it work for him. And that's how you had
a long career too.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
That's a good.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Point defending a guy that wasn't technically on the you know,
scouting report and a guy coming in especially last late
minute scratch. Yeah, how do you adjust, especially as a
defensive assignment, how you prepare for that? You know what
I mean? Because sometimes you just so I don't consider robotically,
but you you've been like, all right, I know the
(26:51):
tendencies of this guy. I'm expecting all this, and then
now it's rolling off. How do you make those adjustments?
Do you make adjustments on the fly or you just
trying to make a read a couple couple of times
down the court and go about it that way?
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I mean you you try to do a little bit
of both. But Seth knows this. Like you know, when
somebody like say, like Steph is down tonight, you thought
he's gonna play, and his backup comes in. You know
now that the backup got the green light, so he
gonna go and do whatever you want to do. So
Steph ain't here, he ain't got to he ain't gotta
really rely on Steph no more. So he knows it's
his night. So it's definitely tough going in there. You
got to stop those guys early. If you get them
a little confidence, it's gonna be a long night, because
(27:26):
I know it happened for me a couple of times
when Dee Rose was hurt. I went in. I knew
I was going to have get most of the shots,
so I can do whatever I want. I know I'm
not coming out. If I am coming out, it's not
that it's not that long. So you definitely got to
be aware of those guys and know that the backups
of the guys, the third guy on the bench that
maybe haven't played a lot this season or doesn't get
a lot of playing time, you got to know he's
coming in the score and you know, play play his game,
(27:47):
and especially you know it's on the solid team. Seth.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
What was the most shots you've taken when you got
a chance to start when somebody's like was out.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's it's freedom though I don't know exact number, but
it's freedom. Like you said, you're not looking over your shoulder,
you're not worrying about coming out, and like the scout report,
really not there for you, Like they don't know what
you play like in that system with the freedom with
like getting thirty plus minutes and stuff like that, so
they expect you to do something like you might play
your regular night, your regular minutes is fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
You might play a little safe or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
But when you got that freedom, you're starting and you
know you're gonna play a lot of minutes, you can
you can take some chances out there and get hot
and take over. And that's kind of what what a
lot of guys, these guys, that's what submitted your career.
Like you get a week or two stretch where guy's
down and you get to start play a lot of
minutes and that's the film that can carry you for
to get your career started.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
CJ.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Do you remember how many shots you've taken, like when
d Rose is out.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I don't know, but I'm sure it was a lot.
The next night he came back and I played like
twelve minutes, So I was like, then I had thirty
five last night. Yeah, but yes, how I go.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I'm talking about that about the other night with somebody
like you gotta that's mental, that's mental talk. Are you
killing for a couple of games, and no matter what
you do, when that guy come back, it's a business, right,
So they're gonna, yeah, they're gonna jump you in a minute.
Your minute's gonna go down, and you gotta be like, ah,
I was, I was killing, but there's nothing you can
do about it. All you can do is be ready
for your next chance to go out there and hoop.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yep, yeah for sure.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
All right, So our producer Peter looked it up. You
took twenty four shots, like you have forty points. Tell
us about that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, it was a crazy night, and I think I
started that game too, but playing with stuff, you know,
made it a lot easier too, because we played well
off each other. But that night, I think I made
the made like the first nine or ten shots of
the even missed. I feel like all of them just
hitting nothing but net. You know, when you're a shooter,
you see that first one going, and after that, I
feel like the riom is just, you know, like an ocean.
So I just kept kept gunning and everyone kept trying
(29:45):
to throw me the ball like you get forty a
halfs and I was like, no, no, I don't want
to do all that. You can't move the ball. If
it comes back to me, then I'll go. But it was, Yeah,
that was definitely a fun night.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I remember watching that game. That was that's the crazy part.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I remember, like y'all had a They weren't a good team,
but they had a lot of buckets on that team. Him, Steph, obviously, Mance,
a lot of guys who get a bucket. Even the
next guy who's gonna talk about Anthony Moore like black.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Boy Pacino, black Boy Patino, man shout us to a
mo Charlotte legend. You got a personal connection with him,
both of you guys. Actually I mentioned that team earlier, CJ.
You know, I remember, you know, getting the call obviously
going crazy in the Utah Summer League and then being
a part of the team and hanging around Marcus and
(30:32):
the other guys, and and I just remember, like he
kept saying it, dude, I don't even think it really
kind of sunk in until a little bit after January,
because remember he had that crazy game against the Clippers,
his career high. But he was just kind of like, man,
I play in the NBA, Like I ain't supposed to
be here, bro, Like you know what I mean, Like
and kept like he was locked in that whole time. Man.
(30:53):
So just a little highlight of Amo's career. Made played
for seven teams over a nine year career, uh, five
hundred and sixty four games, and you know, like got
a chance to you know, be a nice respectable shooter.
But Seth, y'all got some history. Man, let's talk about
it in Charlotte. Man, how y'all connection with Amo?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
That's my guy.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I don't care what anybody say to this day. He
might be the best shooter I've ever seen in my life. Obviously,
we got my family, been around Clay, a bunch of
great shooters, but like it's it's few that can shoot
the ball like Amo. Like we meet him and step
He used to work out in the summers here and Charlotte.
And if you it'd be like first to five at
a spot and all three of us shooting. If you
(31:36):
miss a shot, you might as well walk to the
next spot because it's gonna be one or two people
that's not gonna miss. He's that's that level of shooter. Yeah, Amo,
that's my dog man.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Like he said, having shooting competition with him and Steph
would be would be classic. But yeah, he would always
joke and be like, hey, CJ, I ain't supposed to
be here, I'm supposed to be in Croatia somewhere playing
for two hundred thousand blah blah blah blah. But he
used to die, have me dying laughing.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Man.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
But like he said, his grind was crazy, and uh,
like I said, the way he worked and put that
time in, you know, it just showed him the court too.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I think he still got the record. Yeah, he still
got the record for Summer League, right, yeah, I think so. Yeah, Yeah,
they don't.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
They don't know him for the gap to man, when
he fixed grinded, he was grinding out there, bro. Yeah, man,
he was really grinding. Man really earned it and got
it off the mud for sure. Man. I love that
dude to this day. Man, we gotta get him on
the show soon.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I even watched when he was in I was a youngster.
He was at Charlotte lattin here in high school, and
I'm like, if I ever see a basketball player better
than him, right, he the best?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Like he was.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
He was nice, like a big guard. He could shoot
the shoot the rock a bo man shout out.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Yeah, I mean he was telling it. It was almost
sound like war stories man, when he ed to be like,
all right, yeah, you getting it off like okay. But
you know, over the years, man, I heard I heard
that he was really like that for sure, Man. And
and you know you've been to get those type of
OPPERA tunities And like I said, it's not y'all thought
that y'all go undrafted. Sometimes it just kind of go
that way. But it's a blessing in disguise, man, because
(33:07):
you end up where you're supposed to. And like I said,
y'all played as long as y'all have in the league,
you know what I mean, to establish that and earn
your respect from your peers, man. So it's definitely a
cool thing. The last person to close this out, Man
on the List Man is Wes Matthews.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Man.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Wes Matthews played for the Blazers and Mavericks. He was
able to play nearly a thousand games, nine hundred and
eighty six over a fifteen year career. He was highly productive. Obviously,
Wes Matthews is known for defense. We gave a hard
time in the previous episode about him getting crossed by
Jamal Crawford, But you know, Wes Matthew has some great
years with Portland and other teams. So tell us about
(33:46):
Wes Matthews and you know, experience against him.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, it was great, man. I remember him more so
like a Utah, I think. But him and Ronnie Brew
on the wing, those two guys you don't want to face.
But yeah, Wes had a great career. Man. You know,
as an undrafted guy, you know, watching him and watching
his trajectory, it was cool just to see, you know,
it made it seem like when you see I feel
like when you see undrafted guys make it and have
long careers, you look at them like, hey, man, I
(34:09):
can do it. And like I said before I got in,
he was one of those guys that you know, all
the people talked about just because his uh, his path.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Wes is another undrafted guy who gave me a lot
of game in Dallas, just picking his brain, talking to
him about ways he got into the league and extended
his career. And the funny thing about him, he was
in that nine draft and went undrafted, and he actually
benefited from being undrafted because he I think he sounded
like that one year deal as an undrafted player, and
he played so well the next year he was able
(34:38):
to to sound like a four year deal. So he
was the first one in that draft class.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Million.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, he was the first one in that draft class
to actually get paid, like he got paid for a blade, Steph,
all the James, all those guys. Because just because he did,
he wasn't nounder that four year rookie contract, which is
which is a crazy story and it so.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Yeah, most people to bring that up all the time
and say, oh man, you better try to do the
Wes Matthews. Like it almost became like a thing like, YO,
tell them don't draft you, so we get you know,
like we're gonna bet on ourselves. It's kind of like
the ultimate bet on yourself. Even though it wasn't intentional
that way, but it's just like, YO, get that one
year deal, go crazy and then you can kind of
(35:17):
get that, you know, your next bag.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
That's like the aging trick bag that make you feel
better about not getting drafted. You don't want to if
you ain't firsonally, you don't want to get drafted because
you can pick your spot. You can pick where you
want to go to and where you paid for sure,
believe it or not, That's what a lot of agents
are telling the guys these days, probably because of the
guys like Wes Matthews.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Yeah, one man, they just make it seem like second
round ain't even cool, you know, even though you still
get your name called. I still think that's one of
the coolest things. But if you didn't. Obviously, this episode
is focused on the undrafted, the real the real mud boys.
You know what I'm saying. You know, I'm gonna shot
out a couple of honorable mentions Man Andre Carlos Royal,
(35:58):
Reggie Evans, Eryld Pargo, Game, Ronnie Pryce, Tollivan, Reggie Williams's
a lot of Golden State Warriors on this list, Man,
that I was gonna say that one year, Man, they
were just calling guys up. I remember that they was
(36:19):
taking iron that Reggi Williams year they was calling guys up.
I said, yo ho or whatever. I don't even know
where these guys come from, but they hooping, you know
what I mean. And with opportunity. That's free hoops. Man.
Ain't nothing like free hoops, especially like you know, potentially
ending up on a bad team or a bad team,
an injury riddle team. That that that is more focused
(36:40):
on the draft. Man, ain't no more freedom than that. Man,
y'all might lose the game, but your stat's gonna look beautiful.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Yeah, that was a perfect situation to go see for
most of those guys because don Nelson lets you play, man,
he lets you be a He's a he's a perfect
players coach because he's a running gun system and he
wants everybody to shoot the ball and score. So it's perfect.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
You got a chance to play for a few coaches.
Would you say Nelly's one of your favorite coaches?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh yeah, for sure, not even just because of the situation,
just because of him as a person, all the stuff
that Nelly does and the freedom he gets everybody. So yeah,
it was definitely. He's definitely one of my favorite coaches.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
All Right, we're gonna take a quick break. When we
come back, we're gonna share our goat top five.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
All right, we're back.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
You know this is one of our favorite topics.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Man.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
We got to guess it's time to weigh in on
his top five as well. But I'm gonna kick things off, man,
I'm gonna start off with number five. Number five, I
got Anthony Morrow. Got to have my guy on there.
You know what I mean, much love. We showed a
lot of love early on, but you know his grind
of being, you know, undrafted, going crazy in the Utah
Summer League, still holding that record and having a career
(37:57):
that he had At four, I'm sure I get some love. C. J.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Watson.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
You at number four, brother, got you there? You know
what I'm saying. He was part of one of my
favorite Bulls teams. So I gotta get you in there
in the mix. God'll put you right there. At three,
you know, we got the bag legend, Wes Matthews. You
know what I mean, he played fifteen years. Got gotta
throw throw a nod at that number two NBA champion
(38:22):
JJ Burreer and at number one, I got u d
you Donnis Haslom, you know what I'm saying, beat the odds,
longevity king, whatever you want to call it. People laugh
at him, but he should be in a lot of
a lot of people's you know what I mean, look
books of where they should want to be in their
career as an undrafted guy, specifically big Man.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, I ain't mad at it. So top five, I'm
gonna get my top five.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I'm'a start with seven oh four Legend, Anthony Morrow, number five.
I'm gonna go Jose carderone, number four, long career, just efficiency, monster,
just can shoot it and score all over the floor.
I'm going number three, my guy Wes Matthews, two J. J. Barrera,
(39:08):
and one U D. I think that's a solid five
guys who played a long time in the league, played
in some big moments.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I like my top five.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Yeah, man, I ain't we ain't too far off. Man.
You showed some love and I like the calter on
pick man. It don't make it too crazy. I'm pretty
sure when people listening to this episode, he'll hear calter on,
they gonna think about NBA Live or they gonna go
look up some YouTube highlights for sure, man. And that's
that's that's that's a lot of love on that h
c J.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Who you got I got in no particular order. I
got Wes Matthews because just you know, we all talked
about it already. I got U D. Legend Amo one
of my former teammates, and uh just love his journey.
Then I got JJ Brera and then Chuck A's So
that's the thing that's my.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, chuck snucking man, Man, yeah, I gotta you gotta put.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It in there.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Yeah, I like the Chuck Hayes love shout out some
modesto legend. Man, there's some you know, some diversity in
our in our in our fires. Nobody, you know what
I mean. Obviously you know we have some Anthony Marls
in there and some you know, some Wes Matthews in
there across the board. But I like it, man, and
and and those listening feel free to sing your five
(40:25):
shout a holler if we left somebody off the you
know considerations. Man, But these are the goats man of
this episode. When we come back, we're gonna take a
quick break and we're gonna go over Born in the
wrong era. We get to hear some guys who could
potentially thrive in twenty five, twenty sixties. All right, we're back, Man,
(41:03):
born in the wrong era. I can't wait to hear
who CJ. Watson picks for his player that was born
in the wrong era, for the undrafted players of two thousands.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Oh man, So I think, uh, I think, like said,
I'm gonna stick with my my go to Wes Matthews. Uh,
the way the way he played the game and the
way the game is played today, I think he would
have been perfect. So I definitely think he's one of
my players that I would think about. You know, I
had to pick somebody more than the wrong era.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah for me, you know, I like to step out
the side of the box and give y'all name. Y'all
I ain't thought about in the year. So I'm going
with my guy Anthony Tallins. But yeah, eighteen, yeah, stretched
big and in today's league where he could play that
four or five undersize five and just play five out
basketball and just stand out there and shoot a lot
(41:55):
of threes like he was. He was a perfect fit
in that Nelly offense, like we talked about earlier, where
it was running gun, hard to guard, and today's league
he would have been. He's still be out there casting
away from three. So shout out toy Anthony Tolliver.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Yeah, Anthony Tyler will have a random four for four
three point game. You don't get out there like and
did he gonna do his little thing and he jump
running back with them hot socks.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
It was crazy. Yeah, yeah, socks was terrible.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
Yeah, man, he had a different swag, man, but he
always was reliable for you know, a picking pop three
for sure. Man, my choice, Man, I'm gonna go with
Genaro Pargo. Man, he got a game, bro Like, I
just feel like he had another opportunity or something like that,
he would have cooked up a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Man.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
But I'm really rolling with Genaro Parker. I was really
on the fence with Carlos the Royal as well. But
I'm gonna stick with it. I'm gonna stick with Parko, Man,
Parko would have cooked up.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
So you're just doing good hoopers like right, they can play,
they can play in any error just because they can hoop.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
Hey, I'm rolling. I just think that he just really
just would have been scoring wise. I think with the
ball in his hand, he could be a solid backup
for sure, like you know what I mean, And the
same thing you can go for CJ. I mean CJ
playing this era right now, he's gonna cook you know
what I mean, with the opportunity, like he ain't lead
nothing on the table when you know d Rose is hurt.
So imagine you being in a situation where backing up job,
(43:15):
backing up, you know what I mean, Like you gonna
eat because it's more of an offensive game anyway, you
know what I'm saying, you get to use your IQ
and some of the new moves that's been developed. I
think you you're gonna cook, you know what I mean.
You're gonna be a high paid You'll be nice little
guy to throw in there, you know what I'm saying,
playing your nice twenty four minutes a game and be
(43:37):
happy and cool and cooking.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yeah, because these days you gotta worry about you gotta
worry about low management and stuff. So yeah, you can't
play in the minutes, no one, that's a fact.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Now. I brought you up, CJ because I really think
that you can cook in this league. You know what
I mean in this era. What you think you would
do if you got a chance to, you know, play
in this era.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
I think it could be fun because this era is
all about spreading the floor, which I thought I did
pretty well getting out there playing still gambling for steels,
playing defense. So I definitely think this ARA is a
lot more running gun, which I love to play. So
this era, you know, I definitely would have been It
would have been fun for me to play in and
I definitely think I would have thrived in it because
of you know, the shoot, the shooting that I did
(44:19):
well and also just be having to finish at the
rim to you know, many different shots. I wasn't just
a three point shooter. I can do a little bit
of everything. You know, hand them the pick and roll,
which today's game is huge pick and roll game, you know,
looking for the weak defenders and things of that nature.
So I definitely wouldn't been able to do that.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Yeah, this era is it's less of a specialist era too,
Like you need well rounded offensive players some of the West,
like CJ was hooping like he ain't just like that.
He could obviously spot up and shoot it, but he
ain't got to only do that. You can throw them
the ball and he can carry your offense for a
half a quarter if you need him to. Man put
on the floor on pick and roll, like you need
teams looking for guys that can do a lot of
(44:57):
things on the office of vent and not just and
like specially like you had in the nineties or even
early two thousands.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
Well, man, it's been a fun episode. Man, Thank you
so much for hanging with us.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
CJ.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Man. Where can people find you on social media?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Oh? No, pro man, thanks for having me. You can
find me in Quiet Storm Underscore thirty two on IG
and X and yeah that's about it, man.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
And then you write a children's book too.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Oh yeah, and I got some children. Buy the book
Man four books and can go to Amazon or cjpins
dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, go buy his book showing some love. Man, I
need those at the crib myself. Yeah yeah, yeah, y'all
know where to find me a s do I carry
on all socials. I let us go follow the new
pot page, go podcast on X just keep it pushing.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
You can find me on X, at travaon and at
Trey on Instagram. Man, make sure you subscribe, break and review,
show love, tell somebody who's missing out, who loves really,
really really really who.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
To tap in?
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Engage with us, make sure you extend the conversation. Let
us know who you want on the show, and hopefully
we'll get CJ. Watson back on Man for another topic, Man,
because this was definitely a fun episode and you know
you're always welcome. Brother.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Oh, I appreciate it, Man, thanks for having me go Go.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
This has been a Unanimous Media original.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Goat was produced by iHeart.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Podcasts and Unanimous Media. It was hosted by be Travon
Edwards and step Kurk. Executive produced by Stephen Curry and
Eric Katon. Co executive producer Klenna Maria Cutting. The executive
producers at iHeart Podcasts are Sean Tittone and Jason English.
This series was produced by Derek Jennings and Peter Kutcher.
(46:51):
Co producer Kurt Redd. Original music by Jesse Woodard. Special
thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Special shout out
to Scott Rochelle for preserving our walking libraries by granting
access to their stories. Goat is a production of Unanimous
Media and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'll never forget I was we talked about journeyman. I was.
We were playing the Warriors one year.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm at the free throw line and I'm, you know,
Draymond out there and We're going back and forth.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
He talking.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I get found might go to an one Erson. I
say something to him and I'm at the free throw line.
He's like, why are you talking? You're a journeyman. You
know every team in the league.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It was funny. It was funny for steps right there.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It was kind of awkward, like Draymond, that's my guy,
but he gonna talk and me on the floor, so
talking back to Hi'm a German, but I like set
back to him, like that's a badge of honor for me.
You know how many guys you know that have been
on two teams and out the league? Like I'd rather
be on eight nine teams have a twelve year career then,
like like he said, be one and done.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So I take pride in it.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Welcome back to another episode of Greatest of Their Era?
What up, Doc?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
What up?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Tray?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
We got a good episode today. Man, I'm excited about
this one.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Man.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, the ma Alley undrafted guys got a great guest
today was going.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Off, yeah man, before he even saying anything. Man, we
got CJ. Watson. He played internationally before becoming a ten
year NBA veteran that played in six hundred games for
five teams over the course of his career. Started his
career joining the Warriors just after the We Believe playoff run,
and were still with the team during Steph's rookie season
(01:21):
before I agreeing to assigning trade to Chicago the next summer.
You received a few six minutes of a year award
of votes in twenty eleven and twenty twelve, and you
are one of the goat consider it of the undrafted
two thousands. Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
CJ. Watson, Oh man, appreciate for having me. Thank you
all a lot.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah man. So we got two undrafted guys who you know, Obviously,
when you don't get drafted, the likelihood of staying in
the league is very difficult. It's a difficult road. It's
not guaranteed that you're gonna, you know, make it. And
I'm sitting here with two guys that have played ten
years and ten years plus in NBA. Uh, how's that like?
(02:04):
Speaking towards that as far as being then undrafted guy,
how do you feel being around some people that were
first round picks that aren't didn't even make it past
maybe four or five seasons.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Personally, I take pride in it as an undrafted guy.
It ain't like looking back on obviously, when you in
the draft, you want to get drafted. You want to
get have a team invested in you and have a
little bit of easier pass or whatnot. But looking back,
I'm proud of just going that route I did playing
in the D League for a couple of years. It
wasn't even the G like it is now is the
D League, and you had to grind it out. Like
(02:34):
I want to ask CJ this, we got them here now?
Like for me, I had of when I was in
the G and I don't know, you played like a
year in the.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
G League, right, I played one month?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
One month? Okay?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So like what, like what kind of traits do you
see in guys like yourself on the other guys like
who are undrafted and had to go to the G
to earn their way to get the opportunity in the league, Like,
what are some things those guys have in common?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
You just see the appreciation for the game, for the
process because and the de league man, that was a
definitely grind. I think we were still taking buses everywhere.
We wasn't flying playing, So it's a grind to get there.
And when you're playing something like that, obviously your dream
is get to the NBA, but you respected so much
more when you actually get there and you know you
have the nice things, and now it's just easier for
(03:19):
you to work. Now you just put all your work
into the grind and you know, get better each and
every day.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, I agree, Like for me, it was it was
always I had to like find joy and playing the game,
like you gotta really love it to play in the
g and get you get out of there.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Like it was.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So many teammates and guys I've seen who could hoop
but then love and ended up like either quitting or
going or just their career was over just because they
couldn't last they didn't love the game enough to go
through that grind.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I definitely think like so many guys fighting for one
or two call ups, so you know everybody's on the
same same page, and I think that's just the bad
part about only one of y'all is one of us
is gonna get picked or two maybe, you know, so
it's not a whole bunch like the whole team like
it should be.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So you mentioned call up right when and being in
that position right and you know, like clearly both of
you guys can score the ball. When you think about
what teams really need, what was your approach in there,
like did you feel like, hey, how do I, you know,
make an impression for a team to call me up?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
What was going through your mind during that process?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Ejer. For me, it was just I wanted to work
on all the things that the GMS and the president
said I wasn't good at, and I wanted to, you know,
make those things better. It really wasn't about any particular
team needing to fit or whatever that case. I think
right when I kind of got called up, it was
kind of like the transition of the point guard being
like a scorer. I was more taught to a point
guard facilitator first, and then you know, you score in
(04:40):
bunches or whatever the case may be. But I was
at the time where Russ was coming in d Row's steph.
They were shooters and scorers, so I was more of
a traditional PG. So I had to like change my
mentality from being a person who can set people up
and score at the same time, just going into scoring
and then worry about setting people up later.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Oh that's crazy. So I don't even know.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I feel like you was all just a natural score
watching you come in, Like, so you telling me you
when you first came in, you were more like the
traditional PG. You were trying to to set guys up
and run the te any more.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, because you that was like a time of CP
three and Steve Nash, you know, and Ja Kidds. So
it was like point guards. You got to run the show,
you know, be an extension of the coach on the
on the court, but also you know, score, you know,
whatever you need to but w still be aggressive and stuff.
But yeah, I wanted to be like CP three and
all those guys. So they were you know, traditional point
guards like Rondo stuff like that. So I just had
to change my mindset to being a score because they
(05:31):
said that's what they wanted more from me. So I said,
that's what you want, I'm gonna give you whatever you want.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Was it like super like And I can relate to
this when I played in college. I think that was
the hardest adjustment of being more selfish right and being aggressive.
How hard did it, like, basically, how long did it
take for you to adjust your game into like another
archetype of like, yo, I got to score the ball,
you know what I mean? Because playing overseas sometimes they
expect Americans over you know, to score the ball. So
(05:58):
how was it all harder switched once you you know,
got into the g and I mean we the d
League at the time and then went from that thing,
or you already was kind of adjusted from the time
playing overseas.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah, I think it took a couple of months maybe
just to get that back in that mindset of mode
of just being aggressive attacking the basket at all times,
you know, not attacking the basket to pass, but to score.
So I think, like I said, it only took a
couple months. But you know, once that mindset was built
into me, and that's what they said they wanted from
me to try and get to that next level. I said,
I easily can make the switters. Need to know what
(06:31):
I need to work on or why I wasn't why
I wasn't drafted, just.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Talk about my situation and like that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Like for me, it was I was like I was
out with two guard and heightened college and coming out
and undersize two guarden, it was the same boat. Like
people were telling me they wanted me to play more
point guard than the G and C, that I can
handle the ball and run more pick and roll. And
I did that and that got me the opportunity to
get into the league. But once I got to the league,
I was shooting the ball so well and they moved
me back to the two.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So like for me, it was just I had to
be adaptable every single year, every situation I was into.
It was not like one set role that I was
going to be in. Every year, it felt like it changed,
and I.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Think my adaptability was able was one of the reasons
I was able to last and stick in the league.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Did you have any fear that potentially the game would
swing back to the traditional point guard again and just
be like, you know, kind of not take away a
strength of yours, but just like you know, you have
to get back into you know, bringing the ball up
or running the offense for a potential team.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And I didn't have fear because I feel like I could,
Like I said, I was adapted. I feel like I
could do whatever you wanted me to do. Like it's
like I had the smart enough IQ and my skill
level was enough. Like if you wanted to go out
there and play the point for a few games, I
could do that. If you wanted me to go out
there and spot up and shoot the ball, run off screens,
I felt like I could do that. So for me,
I was doing I was really doing whatever it took
and whatever they asked me to do on a nightly basis.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I felt like now coming off the hypo we believe
and joining that Warriors team and expectations and got the
Montees the beads of the world, where did you feel
like looking around, especially from the Guard's perspective, how you
were going to fit in and adjust? What was your
like mindset, you know, playing Finelli and all that, Like
just your approach coming in as an undrafted guy.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
It was fun, man, Like a lot of people don't
know this, but I got called up by two teams.
Actually when I got the call, so the Warriors supposed
to call me up in the Bobcats Charlote Bobcats at
the time, so but the Warriors just pulled the trigger faster,
So it was fun. Like I didn't even think about
like getting on playing time or where I would fit in.
I just wanted to. I was just glad I got
a call up and got a chance to go out
(08:33):
there and play. But as soon as I got there,
Coach Nelson just told me, you know, I'm gonna throw
you in the fire and see what it see how
it works. If it works, you know. I think I
was mostly there just to give Bead some some relief
because they was playing him a lot of minutes in
that year and he was injured a lot. So uh
But like I said, I love playing with those guys,
and it was fun to come in and just get
my feet up with that team and that that coach.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And that's one thing people don't understand about, Like all
you need is one one opportunity, one coach, one one
system to believe in you, and it's gonna show in
a lot of people we talk about on this list,
as far as go to the two thousands of undrafted guys,
like they got an opportunity in one spot, and a
lot of them just stuck in that system just because
(09:15):
that's that's what worked for him. Like they went to
a different situation, a different team, it might not have
worked out. But like for me, in my case, I
have the keys call me up. And now I went
to Rick, Carlisle and Dallas who really believed in me.
He wasn't afraid to play small guards, multiple in the
back court, and I mean worked out for me.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
All right, Well, you know we got a chance to
you know, go through both of you guys' journey. Now
we get to talk about some undrafted greats of the
two thousands and maybe CJ has faced to get faced
off against some dot Maybe you faced off against some
of these guys, so we can kind of speak towards it.
But the first person we talk about is Emailed, you
know what I mean. He came in the league in
(09:53):
two thousand and three, he started seventy five games with
the seven year NBA career. Se did you ever get
a chance to face off against.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah, I faced off a couple of times when you
play for the Spurs. So yeah, he's always I mean,
just like he coaches, he's a tough He's a tough player,
so he's a tough coach. He was basically like you know,
a three D guy back in San Antonio, before that
terms even came out. So, uh, he was one of
those hard nose type guys.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, so I was about to say the exact same
thing he played away he coached like just hard nose, tough.
I remember, like a few years ago, were playing him
in the playoffs and I'm over close to him talking
to the ref. Next thing, you know, he talked to
me at the same I'm like, you a coach. You
don't see it every day where a coach is talking
to opposing players, and you see it all the.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Time with him on the sideline.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
He got that firey personality and he feels like he
got something to prove as a coach the same way
he played so on.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
His own he had to grind it up.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah. Absolutely. Before I say this next name, I wanted
to talk about the importance of a journeyman. Right. Sometimes
feels like it's a negative stain on it, but I
think it's like almost like an honorary kind of badge
because like that means like teams, you know, like pretty
much like they respect you, you know what I mean, Like
you're gonna end up you keep a job, you know
(11:10):
what I mean. In the league, and most people look
at it almost as the negativity, like man, he's collecting
jerseys or he keep a job, you know what I mean.
And like one of the names that always used to
come to my mind was is Smith. Right, Smith will
always just end up. You'd be like, dang man, like,
I don't know what he's doing at this part of
his career, but he getting signed. Like how y'all feel
(11:30):
about you know, maybe falling in the category of a
journeyman and just like just being a trusted I feel
like it's just like a trusted person that you can
kind of call on when that job is needed, you
know what I mean, whether you working out in the
summer and they need that like last roster spot, and
they know that you're going to be effective later on
down the line. Like I think that's just like a
it's one and probably one of the most underrated positions.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I mean, I think it's great. I think I'd rather
be a journeyman than be a one and done or
two and done something like that. So I definitely think,
you know, I think it's just about staying ready to
whenever you're ready, when your numbers called, whether that's in
the off season or during the season, when somebody gets
hurt and you perform. I think that's the that's the
best thing. And uh, everyone one that keeps on to
you is uh just a tested to your your loyal
(12:15):
your loyalty and also your trustworthy. So as a trustworthy employee,
you know, do what I need to do.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, I'll never forget. I was we talked about journeyman.
I was.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
We were playing the Warriors one year and I'm at
the free throw line and I'm you know, Draymond out
there and We're going back and forth. He talking. I
get faun. I might go to a one erson I
say something to him and I'm at the free throw line.
He's like, why are you talking? You're a journeyman. You
know every team in the league.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It was funny.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It was funny for step was right there. It was
kind of awkward, like Draymond, that's my guy. But he
gonna talk and we on the floor, so right, talk
back to him a German, but I like set back
to him, like that's a badge of honor for me.
You know how many guys you know that have been
on two teams and out the league, like I'd rather
be on eight nine teams have a twelve year career then, like,
like he said, be one and done.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So I take pride in it, and yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Yeah, I also think the cool part about playing for
multiple teams is that you just get a different experience
than everybody else. You get what I'm saying, You get
to you know, sometimes y'all only get to go there
two times, four times. But when you get to play
for these different teams and experience it throughout the you know,
especially if it's a lilit city you like all right,
you know you can benefit that. And if you've ever
(13:25):
been on like a playoff team or you just want
to be with one team your entire career. It's that
curiosity now that you see star guys like finally dipping
their toe and saying, maybe I'll go over here because
the grass is always greener. But y'all can actually kind
of test them, like, oh man, I play over there. Man,
it was cool. I had a cool experience. I really
didn't like you know this that man, They training staff
is really good, Like I mean, you guys got to
(13:46):
see it from from from different aspects.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, being a journeyman, like I said, you get to
see different cities, different franchises, see who does it well,
who doesn't want who doesn't do it well? And if
you get a chance to go back to one of
those franchises, and you already know, so I said, I'm
sure anybody you know, sitting on the couch or playing hoops, whoever,
would rather be a journeyman than not be a journeyman.
So I definitely, you know, like you said, it's a
badger honor and it's a test to the hard work
(14:11):
you put in.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
All right, this next player, you Donnis Housen, journeyman, not
a journeyman, got stayed home. Debut came in two thousand
and three, after playing internationally. UD's career spans over eight
hundred and seventy nine NBA games, play which he actually
started a total of five hundred and one times, although
he sparently over his last few years in Miami, UD
(14:37):
has garnered a few DePoy votes, especially in six o seven.
He's a champion. I think he is the heart and
soul Miami. But I got a chance to watch him
in Florida, you know what I mean, when he was
coming off those championship teams and whatnot, you know what
I mean, and just being kind of a pivotal player,
you know what I mean. But just going to Miami
and embodying it through and through even to the end,
(15:00):
you know what I mean. And we talked about designated
VET spots, like how important that would be to the
current NBA you know what I mean, Like see that
what's your thought on Like if it was a guaranteed
spot for a year twelve and up guy for each team,
because it's getting younger and we see it as like
(15:21):
the lack of leadership, the lack of you know, veterans
in the locker room, so some things are breaking down.
You get more off the court issues, and you know,
I think that teams could benefit from it, you know
what I mean, having a guy like you know, both
you guys, but also UD and how effective it was
for the culture of Miami.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, I definitely think it's needed. I think I look
at it both ways, Like you know, having a VET
on the team, can he can give you all the
experience he went through and give you some ups and downs,
good and bad, and hopefully you don't make the same
you know, choices and do better. So I definitely look
at that from that perspective also, but also look at
it from like maybe if a younger player could get
a shot, a VET is taking that up, you know,
and taking that away from so. But yeah, I definitely
(16:02):
think they're needed on each team. Like you said, the
league is getting younger and younger, and I think, you know,
having that wisdom and that experience and knowledge to be
able to get back and tell guys, you know, helping
guy's accountable. I think it's the biggest thing, you know,
telling guys are messing up, but when you can do better.
So I think that's definitely needing the locker room and
not right now it's just a whole bunch of I
pointing fingers and everybody wants to be cool and homies
instead of you know, really having tough conversations.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, but I'm thinking about u D like he really
transformed everything to have a long career, Like when he
came in here, he transformed his body, got in shape,
and then just went through Miami. Played every role in
that team, whether it was starter, six man, coming off
the bench, not playing at all towards the end of
his career, like he was really doing whatever it took
to stick it out and do what they asked of
(16:45):
him in Miami. So He definitely a legend into three
oh five.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And he got to shut up some love.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, we climbing up the ladder. This
is a deep cut Jose. Jose he debuted in five. Uh,
you know, one of considerably in the conversation, a top
twenty undrafted player of all time when you factor in
production and the fact that he started nearly six hundred
(17:12):
of eight hundred ninety five NBA games, played for seven
teams over a fourteen year career, but peaked with Raptors
and Mavericks.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
You mentioned that Calderon was tough, like what was your
experienced garden Calderon.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Man, he was just solid man. He was knocked down
the three ball, can take you off the dribble. He
would reject the picks all the time. When his game
in the pick and roll was so crafty because he
was from overseas. It was just like, you know, he
was tough to guards, just when he had some some
other weapons on this team that could scored the ball
in Biggs to pass to you because he was always tough.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
For me, he was one of those first to like
you talk about crafty to pick he would like hold
you off. Yeah, yeah, screen just do that crab dribble
for a long time. But one of my memories of Jose,
like because I played with Kyrie when's one year, dude,
and his first game after he was drafted that next
year was against Jose Calderons. So he gets to the
league and Kyrie ready to go, like he feeling himself.
(18:04):
He gets to that first game and Jose gave him
the business. That was what we were all watching the
game and Duke and he was he was going to
work on Kai and that was kind of Kyle's wealking
to the league moment. Obviously after he was a little
nervous or whatever, but he took off from there. But
that just showed you like guys like Jose and all
those are true pros, and no matter number one pick
coming into the league, that's the people you gotta deal
(18:25):
with on a nightly basis.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I mean those type of guards man or stay ready,
straight pros, you know what I mean, whether you think
that's a big name or not. Like even just having
a fourteen year career and starting all those games, like
that's the trusted employee. Like we talked about, Man just
relied on. He had some big shots, especially in Toronto,
you know what I mean. But also you know what
I mean, like overall just playing and having his number call,
(18:49):
like he would end up with a starting job, and
you know, like the ball gonna be taken care of,
the offense gonna be ring, gonna shoot it, he gonna
do what he needs to do, like you said, be
a tearing at pick and rolling to pick and pop,
et cetera. It's just just just a hard assignment.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Man.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
It's it probably need to get your sleep because he's
gonna run around too, you know what I mean, and
make you work. So I think that's a whole other
conversation in itself. The next player we're talking about is
Damian wilkins Uh. He played internationally as well. I think
this is a theme, a running theme. A lot of
guys went across the water to get their feet wet,
become pros, and then come back and just very season.
(19:26):
He had a solid ten year career. He played for
sixteams overstretch, started one hundred and fifty games. And he
also you know, got a chance to play for the
you know, Seattle SuperSonics, which is you know, a long
time ago, you know what I mean to some of
our fans that might be listening didn't even know that
was a franchise. But uh, Damian Wilkins man, you know,
(19:47):
obviously had those genetics of being athletic, but also you know,
probably one of the guys that was in the archetype
of defense and just kind of just getting you a
getting you a put back or you know, knocking down
a jumper here and there. You know what I mean.
I think he had a three ball, but I gotta
go back and look at the table.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Y'all.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Remember Damian Wilkins.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I remember I played against him and the G.
Now I played against him and the G like after
his career, so he played like ten years in the
league and he was kind of on his way out
trying to stay in and I messed up against him
a few times in the G and it was just
a savvy vet man just still add it. Had a
little bit of everything to his game, yeah for sure.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, tough nose player and you know, always did the
dirty work and stuff like that. So yeah, I remember him,
Like he said, he got good gene, so he should
be should be in the NBA at least halfway there.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Yeah, man, you get that, you get that fresh start man.
You know, all the Wilkins man got it. They born
with a forty inch vert, so you know they get that.
For the jump man, you ain't go question else. I
think trying to make a jump shot and all other stuff.
And now that get tricky because you know, obviously the
game takes you away from the basket a little bit
further and further. And you know, like Damian, you know
(20:56):
he was. He was serviceable for some of them teams
that he played, you know, especially getting tho tough assignments
on the defensive end. This next guy, modesto, legend man.
I gotta give it up for California man Chuck Hayes
He got one of the ugliest free throw shooting routines.
But he played six hundred and forty four games for
three teams. I remember him definitely for the Houston years.
(21:17):
I mean he played for Sacramento in Toronto as well
over eleven year career. His speak year was twenty ten
to twenty eleven with the Rockets, essentially averaging eight points
a game, eight rebounds, and three assists. And he received
some votes for d Boy as well. Man Chuck Hayes
Man set some screens. He was in that body, you
(21:38):
know what I mean, might knock down a jumper that's
gonna throw you off, just because of the form and release.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
But he was one of those old school power forwards
we talked about in one of the previous episodes, like
this kind of this archetype of player, don't really on
the league, Like, ain't nobodies like like six. Yeah, that's
what I'm saying, Like, ain't nobody like him in the league,
And like anymore who's six? Like a true power forward,
not really a center, not a wing, but like he was,
(22:05):
like he could shoot the fifteen footer like you don't
he was.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
That's like a dying breed in the league.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Right, Yeah, for sure. I bet he gets chuck in
college too. So he was every time on the scouting report,
It's like, don't let him get to the offensive glass
and give them more opportunities to score. So he was
definitely a beast on the boards, and ex said, always
always tough.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
His next player NBA champion major for his country, JJ,
you know what I mean, International League Puerto Rican, you
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Did his thing?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Played in eight hundred and thirty one NBA games for
the MAVs and the Wolves not only won a title,
but he's also a productive member of the rotation contributed
to big moments.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
JJ one of my vets.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
JJ Barell like one of the guys you get to
the league and like, how is he in the league
at that size? You don't realize until you watch him
every night and you figure out, like he's he's like nice.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Like it was two things he did every night you
watched him.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
One he was gonna throw, he was gonna bring it
up and he's gonna throw the back door to Devin Harris.
Every night he's gonna get one of them back doors
to the Harris. And then two he was gonna if
you try to post them up, he's gonna draw charge.
So he had all the tricks in the book, like
he was gonna grab you and on the second bump
he was gonna flop and get a charge every single night,
and for whatever reason, the rest felt for So that's
the guy. Like I learned more tricks from him than
(23:22):
probably anybody else in the league.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah, he got it for sure. Man. I know
I put against him on Team USA after my first
year of college and he was killing for Puerto Rico.
Dan and then eventually years later playing against him in
the league, and it's like you said, he got all
the tricks. I remember a couple of times he took
a couple of charges on me and they wouldn't even
know closer, no way, it was no charge, but he
gonna sell it every time.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, he was a tricks to man.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
But nice, yeahh super nice.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
I was thinking about his just his size, man, right,
And it's the difficulty of just be getting it shot
off and all those other things. And obviously I know
everybody teasing Lebron about that that game. They're like, oh,
he can ain't get by jj Burrell or he only
had eight points on Jaji Bred and it's like nah,
but Jaji Bread is like sneaky strong. He got some
(24:06):
stuff that just your eyes just really can't tell. And
it's like NBA tricks man that just really worked. And
then he also knew when he can blow by guys
and get them points and just be effective in that
in that uh you know, that system that the Mavericks had.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And he found his role too, just like we've been
talking about the whole time. His role was designed and uh,
you know, he perfected it. He would pick you up
full court, you know, calls having on defense and then
the offense, you know, score, get the ball to the
people he needed to get to and knock down the
open jumper from time to time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, I remember talking to him like he could only
play he can only be himself and only could play
well in Dallas, because I remember, like he had that
good year in Dallas. It was a free agent, signed
a pretty good deal with Minnesota. He was in Minnesota
for like a year before he came back to Dallas
because he just couldn't he didn't feel comfortable. He couldn't
he couldn't be himself anywhere outside of Dallas and playing
for Rick. So I mean that just shows you like
(24:57):
a system that fits for you, you want to stay there
to extend your care Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
That's super interesting when you think about that. I mean,
like when you find a groove, and then obviously you
want to make the money man, because you never lead
the money on the table unless you know it's a
behind the closed doors deal with something that you got
going on. But that's very rare. You go take the
money and you end up coming back, and we've seen
that time after time, where you know, guys reunite with
their teams that they had success with. So yeah, it
(25:23):
was definitely something special connection in Dallas that he had
and how he showed up and how they let him
rock the next player Gary Hill to the shooters man,
you know what I'm saying. Neil played for six teams
over seven NBA career. Neil played in three hundred and
ninety two games, was a solid contributor throughout, averaging nine
(25:47):
points per game, top five and Roy Boldens and received
some six Men of the Year boltons in the second year.
So Gary Neil, I just he was solid dog Like
if you don't guard, he know, gonna shot your face
off straight up, Like you'd be like, all right, Gary
Neil about to check in? Gary Neil got how much?
That's That's how I'd be looking at Gary Neil most
(26:09):
of the time when I seen him.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
He could change a game, yeah for sure. And and
and I think definitely like when when the other guys
was injured, that's when he got to shine too. Like
he could come and have big games like the thirty
ball or twenty five and five or something like that.
So when those other guys was injured or didn't play,
he took advantage of the opportunity and you know, and
made it work for him. And that's how you had
a long career too.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
That's a good.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Point defending a guy that wasn't technically on the you know,
scouting report and a guy coming in especially last late
minute scratch. Yeah, how do you adjust, especially as a
defensive assignment, how you prepare for that? You know what
I mean? Because sometimes you just so I don't consider robotically,
but you you've been like, all right, I know the
(26:51):
tendencies of this guy. I'm expecting all this, and then
now it's rolling off. How do you make those adjustments?
Do you make adjustments on the fly or you just
trying to make a read a couple couple of times
down the court and go about it that way?
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I mean you you try to do a little bit
of both. But Seth knows this. Like you know, when
somebody like say, like Steph is down tonight, you thought
he's gonna play, and his backup comes in. You know
now that the backup got the green light, so he
gonna go and do whatever you want to do. So
Steph ain't here, he ain't got to he ain't gotta
really rely on Steph no more. So he knows it's
his night. So it's definitely tough going in there. You
got to stop those guys early. If you get them
a little confidence, it's gonna be a long night, because
(27:26):
I know it happened for me a couple of times
when Dee Rose was hurt. I went in. I knew
I was going to have get most of the shots,
so I can do whatever I want. I know I'm
not coming out. If I am coming out, it's not
that it's not that long. So you definitely got to
be aware of those guys and know that the backups
of the guys, the third guy on the bench that
maybe haven't played a lot this season or doesn't get
a lot of playing time, you got to know he's
coming in the score and you know, play play his game,
(27:47):
and especially you know it's on the solid team. Seth.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
What was the most shots you've taken when you got
a chance to start when somebody's like was out.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's it's freedom though I don't know exact number, but
it's freedom. Like you said, you're not looking over your shoulder,
you're not worrying about coming out, and like the scout report,
really not there for you, Like they don't know what
you play like in that system with the freedom with
like getting thirty plus minutes and stuff like that, so
they expect you to do something like you might play
your regular night, your regular minutes is fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
You might play a little safe or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
But when you got that freedom, you're starting and you
know you're gonna play a lot of minutes, you can
you can take some chances out there and get hot
and take over. And that's kind of what what a
lot of guys, these guys, that's what submitted your career.
Like you get a week or two stretch where guy's
down and you get to start play a lot of
minutes and that's the film that can carry you for
to get your career started.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
CJ.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Do you remember how many shots you've taken, like when
d Rose is out.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I don't know, but I'm sure it was a lot.
The next night he came back and I played like
twelve minutes, So I was like, then I had thirty
five last night. Yeah, but yes, how I go.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I'm talking about that about the other night with somebody
like you gotta that's mental, that's mental talk. Are you
killing for a couple of games, and no matter what
you do, when that guy come back, it's a business, right,
So they're gonna, yeah, they're gonna jump you in a minute.
Your minute's gonna go down, and you gotta be like, ah,
I was, I was killing, but there's nothing you can
do about it. All you can do is be ready
for your next chance to go out there and hoop.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yep, yeah for sure.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
All right, So our producer Peter looked it up. You
took twenty four shots, like you have forty points. Tell
us about that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, it was a crazy night, and I think I
started that game too, but playing with stuff, you know,
made it a lot easier too, because we played well
off each other. But that night, I think I made
the made like the first nine or ten shots of
the even missed. I feel like all of them just
hitting nothing but net. You know, when you're a shooter,
you see that first one going, and after that, I
feel like the riom is just, you know, like an ocean.
So I just kept kept gunning and everyone kept trying
(29:45):
to throw me the ball like you get forty a
halfs and I was like, no, no, I don't want
to do all that. You can't move the ball. If
it comes back to me, then I'll go. But it was, Yeah,
that was definitely a fun night.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I remember watching that game. That was that's the crazy part.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I remember, like y'all had a They weren't a good team,
but they had a lot of buckets on that team. Him, Steph, obviously, Mance,
a lot of guys who get a bucket. Even the
next guy who's gonna talk about Anthony Moore like black.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Boy Pacino, black Boy Patino, man shout us to a
mo Charlotte legend. You got a personal connection with him,
both of you guys. Actually I mentioned that team earlier, CJ.
You know, I remember, you know, getting the call obviously
going crazy in the Utah Summer League and then being
a part of the team and hanging around Marcus and
(30:32):
the other guys, and and I just remember, like he
kept saying it, dude, I don't even think it really
kind of sunk in until a little bit after January,
because remember he had that crazy game against the Clippers,
his career high. But he was just kind of like, man,
I play in the NBA, Like I ain't supposed to
be here, bro, Like you know what I mean, Like
and kept like he was locked in that whole time. Man.
(30:53):
So just a little highlight of Amo's career. Made played
for seven teams over a nine year career, uh, five
hundred and sixty four games, and you know, like got
a chance to you know, be a nice respectable shooter.
But Seth, y'all got some history. Man, let's talk about
it in Charlotte. Man, how y'all connection with Amo?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
That's my guy.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I don't care what anybody say to this day. He
might be the best shooter I've ever seen in my life. Obviously,
we got my family, been around Clay, a bunch of
great shooters, but like it's it's few that can shoot
the ball like Amo. Like we meet him and step
He used to work out in the summers here and Charlotte.
And if you it'd be like first to five at
a spot and all three of us shooting. If you
(31:36):
miss a shot, you might as well walk to the
next spot because it's gonna be one or two people
that's not gonna miss. He's that's that level of shooter. Yeah, Amo,
that's my dog man.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Like he said, having shooting competition with him and Steph
would be would be classic. But yeah, he would always
joke and be like, hey, CJ, I ain't supposed to
be here, I'm supposed to be in Croatia somewhere playing
for two hundred thousand blah blah blah blah. But he
used to die, have me dying laughing.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Man.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
But like he said, his grind was crazy, and uh,
like I said, the way he worked and put that
time in, you know, it just showed him the court too.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I think he still got the record. Yeah, he still
got the record for Summer League, right, yeah, I think so. Yeah, Yeah,
they don't.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
They don't know him for the gap to man, when
he fixed grinded, he was grinding out there, bro. Yeah, man,
he was really grinding. Man really earned it and got
it off the mud for sure. Man. I love that
dude to this day. Man, we gotta get him on
the show soon.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
I even watched when he was in I was a youngster.
He was at Charlotte lattin here in high school, and
I'm like, if I ever see a basketball player better
than him, right, he the best?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Like he was.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
He was nice, like a big guard. He could shoot
the shoot the rock a bo man shout out.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Yeah, I mean he was telling it. It was almost
sound like war stories man, when he ed to be like,
all right, yeah, you getting it off like okay. But
you know, over the years, man, I heard I heard
that he was really like that for sure, Man. And
and you know you've been to get those type of
OPPERA tunities And like I said, it's not y'all thought
that y'all go undrafted. Sometimes it just kind of go
that way. But it's a blessing in disguise, man, because
(33:07):
you end up where you're supposed to. And like I said,
y'all played as long as y'all have in the league,
you know what I mean, to establish that and earn
your respect from your peers, man. So it's definitely a
cool thing. The last person to close this out, Man
on the List Man is Wes Matthews.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Man.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Wes Matthews played for the Blazers and Mavericks. He was
able to play nearly a thousand games, nine hundred and
eighty six over a fifteen year career. He was highly productive. Obviously,
Wes Matthews is known for defense. We gave a hard
time in the previous episode about him getting crossed by
Jamal Crawford, But you know, Wes Matthew has some great
years with Portland and other teams. So tell us about
(33:46):
Wes Matthews and you know, experience against him.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, it was great, man. I remember him more so
like a Utah, I think. But him and Ronnie Brew
on the wing, those two guys you don't want to face.
But yeah, Wes had a great career. Man. You know,
as an undrafted guy, you know, watching him and watching
his trajectory, it was cool just to see, you know,
it made it seem like when you see I feel
like when you see undrafted guys make it and have
long careers, you look at them like, hey, man, I
(34:09):
can do it. And like I said before I got in,
he was one of those guys that you know, all
the people talked about just because his uh, his path.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Wes is another undrafted guy who gave me a lot
of game in Dallas, just picking his brain, talking to
him about ways he got into the league and extended
his career. And the funny thing about him, he was
in that nine draft and went undrafted, and he actually
benefited from being undrafted because he I think he sounded
like that one year deal as an undrafted player, and
he played so well the next year he was able
(34:38):
to to sound like a four year deal. So he
was the first one in that draft class.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Million.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, he was the first one in that draft class
to actually get paid, like he got paid for a blade, Steph,
all the James, all those guys. Because just because he did,
he wasn't nounder that four year rookie contract, which is
which is a crazy story and it so.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Yeah, most people to bring that up all the time
and say, oh man, you better try to do the
Wes Matthews. Like it almost became like a thing like, YO,
tell them don't draft you, so we get you know,
like we're gonna bet on ourselves. It's kind of like
the ultimate bet on yourself. Even though it wasn't intentional
that way, but it's just like, YO, get that one
year deal, go crazy and then you can kind of
(35:17):
get that, you know, your next bag.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
That's like the aging trick bag that make you feel
better about not getting drafted. You don't want to if
you ain't firsonally, you don't want to get drafted because
you can pick your spot. You can pick where you
want to go to and where you paid for sure,
believe it or not, That's what a lot of agents
are telling the guys these days, probably because of the
guys like Wes Matthews.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Yeah, one man, they just make it seem like second
round ain't even cool, you know, even though you still
get your name called. I still think that's one of
the coolest things. But if you didn't. Obviously, this episode
is focused on the undrafted, the real the real mud boys.
You know what I'm saying. You know, I'm gonna shot
out a couple of honorable mentions Man Andre Carlos Royal,
(35:58):
Reggie Evans, Eryld Pargo, Game, Ronnie Pryce, Tollivan, Reggie Williams's
a lot of Golden State Warriors on this list, Man,
that I was gonna say that one year, Man, they
were just calling guys up. I remember that they was
(36:19):
taking iron that Reggi Williams year they was calling guys up.
I said, yo ho or whatever. I don't even know
where these guys come from, but they hooping, you know
what I mean. And with opportunity. That's free hoops. Man.
Ain't nothing like free hoops, especially like you know, potentially
ending up on a bad team or a bad team,
an injury riddle team. That that that is more focused
(36:40):
on the draft. Man, ain't no more freedom than that. Man,
y'all might lose the game, but your stat's gonna look beautiful.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Yeah, that was a perfect situation to go see for
most of those guys because don Nelson lets you play, man,
he lets you be a He's a he's a perfect
players coach because he's a running gun system and he
wants everybody to shoot the ball and score. So it's perfect.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
You got a chance to play for a few coaches.
Would you say Nelly's one of your favorite coaches?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh yeah, for sure, not even just because of the situation,
just because of him as a person, all the stuff
that Nelly does and the freedom he gets everybody. So yeah,
it was definitely. He's definitely one of my favorite coaches.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
All Right, we're gonna take a quick break. When we
come back, we're gonna share our goat top five.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
All right, we're back.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
You know this is one of our favorite topics.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Man.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
We got to guess it's time to weigh in on
his top five as well. But I'm gonna kick things off, man,
I'm gonna start off with number five. Number five, I
got Anthony Morrow. Got to have my guy on there.
You know what I mean, much love. We showed a
lot of love early on, but you know his grind
of being, you know, undrafted, going crazy in the Utah
Summer League, still holding that record and having a career
(37:57):
that he had At four, I'm sure I get some love. C. J.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Watson.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
You at number four, brother, got you there? You know
what I'm saying. He was part of one of my
favorite Bulls teams. So I gotta get you in there
in the mix. God'll put you right there. At three,
you know, we got the bag legend, Wes Matthews. You
know what I mean, he played fifteen years. Got gotta
throw throw a nod at that number two NBA champion
(38:22):
JJ Burreer and at number one, I got u d
you Donnis Haslom, you know what I'm saying, beat the odds,
longevity king, whatever you want to call it. People laugh
at him, but he should be in a lot of
a lot of people's you know what I mean, look
books of where they should want to be in their
career as an undrafted guy, specifically big Man.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, I ain't mad at it. So top five, I'm
gonna get my top five.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I'm'a start with seven oh four Legend, Anthony Morrow, number five.
I'm gonna go Jose carderone, number four, long career, just efficiency, monster,
just can shoot it and score all over the floor.
I'm going number three, my guy Wes Matthews, two J. J. Barrera,
(39:08):
and one U D. I think that's a solid five
guys who played a long time in the league, played
in some big moments.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I like my top five.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Yeah, man, I ain't we ain't too far off. Man.
You showed some love and I like the calter on
pick man. It don't make it too crazy. I'm pretty
sure when people listening to this episode, he'll hear calter on,
they gonna think about NBA Live or they gonna go
look up some YouTube highlights for sure, man. And that's
that's that's that's a lot of love on that h
c J.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Who you got I got in no particular order. I
got Wes Matthews because just you know, we all talked
about it already. I got U D. Legend Amo one
of my former teammates, and uh just love his journey.
Then I got JJ Brera and then Chuck A's So
that's the thing that's my.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, chuck snucking man, Man, yeah, I gotta you gotta put.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It in there.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Yeah, I like the Chuck Hayes love shout out some
modesto legend. Man, there's some you know, some diversity in
our in our in our fires. Nobody, you know what
I mean. Obviously you know we have some Anthony Marls
in there and some you know, some Wes Matthews in
there across the board. But I like it, man, and
and and those listening feel free to sing your five
(40:25):
shout a holler if we left somebody off the you
know considerations. Man, But these are the goats man of
this episode. When we come back, we're gonna take a
quick break and we're gonna go over Born in the
wrong era. We get to hear some guys who could
potentially thrive in twenty five, twenty sixties. All right, we're back, Man,
(41:03):
born in the wrong era. I can't wait to hear
who CJ. Watson picks for his player that was born
in the wrong era, for the undrafted players of two thousands.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Oh man, So I think, uh, I think, like said,
I'm gonna stick with my my go to Wes Matthews. Uh,
the way the way he played the game and the
way the game is played today, I think he would
have been perfect. So I definitely think he's one of
my players that I would think about. You know, I
had to pick somebody more than the wrong era.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah for me, you know, I like to step out
the side of the box and give y'all name. Y'all
I ain't thought about in the year. So I'm going
with my guy Anthony Tallins. But yeah, eighteen, yeah, stretched
big and in today's league where he could play that
four or five undersize five and just play five out
basketball and just stand out there and shoot a lot
(41:55):
of threes like he was. He was a perfect fit
in that Nelly offense, like we talked about earlier, where
it was running gun, hard to guard, and today's league
he would have been. He's still be out there casting
away from three. So shout out toy Anthony Tolliver.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Yeah, Anthony Tyler will have a random four for four
three point game. You don't get out there like and
did he gonna do his little thing and he jump
running back with them hot socks.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
It was crazy. Yeah, yeah, socks was terrible.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
Yeah, man, he had a different swag, man, but he
always was reliable for you know, a picking pop three
for sure. Man, my choice, Man, I'm gonna go with
Genaro Pargo. Man, he got a game, bro Like, I
just feel like he had another opportunity or something like that,
he would have cooked up a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Man.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
But I'm really rolling with Genaro Parker. I was really
on the fence with Carlos the Royal as well. But
I'm gonna stick with it. I'm gonna stick with Parko, Man,
Parko would have cooked up.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
So you're just doing good hoopers like right, they can play,
they can play in any error just because they can hoop.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
Hey, I'm rolling. I just think that he just really
just would have been scoring wise. I think with the
ball in his hand, he could be a solid backup
for sure, like you know what I mean, And the
same thing you can go for CJ. I mean CJ
playing this era right now, he's gonna cook you know
what I mean, with the opportunity, like he ain't lead
nothing on the table when you know d Rose is hurt.
So imagine you being in a situation where backing up job,
(43:15):
backing up, you know what I mean, Like you gonna
eat because it's more of an offensive game anyway, you
know what I'm saying, you get to use your IQ
and some of the new moves that's been developed. I
think you you're gonna cook, you know what I mean.
You're gonna be a high paid You'll be nice little
guy to throw in there, you know what I'm saying,
playing your nice twenty four minutes a game and be
(43:37):
happy and cool and cooking.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yeah, because these days you gotta worry about you gotta
worry about low management and stuff. So yeah, you can't
play in the minutes, no one, that's a fact.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Now. I brought you up, CJ because I really think
that you can cook in this league. You know what
I mean in this era. What you think you would
do if you got a chance to, you know, play
in this era.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
I think it could be fun because this era is
all about spreading the floor, which I thought I did
pretty well getting out there playing still gambling for steels,
playing defense. So I definitely think this ARA is a
lot more running gun, which I love to play. So
this era, you know, I definitely would have been It
would have been fun for me to play in and
I definitely think I would have thrived in it because
of you know, the shoot, the shooting that I did
(44:19):
well and also just be having to finish at the
rim to you know, many different shots. I wasn't just
a three point shooter. I can do a little bit
of everything. You know, hand them the pick and roll,
which today's game is huge pick and roll game, you know,
looking for the weak defenders and things of that nature.
So I definitely wouldn't been able to do that.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Yeah, this era is it's less of a specialist era too,
Like you need well rounded offensive players some of the West,
like CJ was hooping like he ain't just like that.
He could obviously spot up and shoot it, but he
ain't got to only do that. You can throw them
the ball and he can carry your offense for a
half a quarter if you need him to. Man put
on the floor on pick and roll, like you need
teams looking for guys that can do a lot of
(44:57):
things on the office of vent and not just and
like specially like you had in the nineties or even
early two thousands.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
Well, man, it's been a fun episode. Man, Thank you
so much for hanging with us.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
CJ.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Man. Where can people find you on social media?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Oh? No, pro man, thanks for having me. You can
find me in Quiet Storm Underscore thirty two on IG
and X and yeah that's about it, man.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
And then you write a children's book too.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Oh yeah, and I got some children. Buy the book
Man four books and can go to Amazon or cjpins
dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, go buy his book showing some love. Man, I
need those at the crib myself. Yeah yeah, yeah, y'all
know where to find me a s do I carry
on all socials. I let us go follow the new
pot page, go podcast on X just keep it pushing.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
You can find me on X, at travaon and at
Trey on Instagram. Man, make sure you subscribe, break and review,
show love, tell somebody who's missing out, who loves really,
really really really who.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
To tap in?
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Engage with us, make sure you extend the conversation. Let
us know who you want on the show, and hopefully
we'll get CJ. Watson back on Man for another topic, Man,
because this was definitely a fun episode and you know
you're always welcome. Brother.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Oh, I appreciate it, Man, thanks for having me go Go.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
This has been a Unanimous Media original.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Goat was produced by iHeart.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Podcasts and Unanimous Media. It was hosted by be Travon
Edwards and step Kurk. Executive produced by Stephen Curry and
Eric Katon. Co executive producer Klenna Maria Cutting. The executive
producers at iHeart Podcasts are Sean Tittone and Jason English.
This series was produced by Derek Jennings and Peter Kutcher.
(46:51):
Co producer Kurt Redd. Original music by Jesse Woodard. Special
thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Special shout out
to Scott Rochelle for preserving our walking libraries by granting
access to their stories. Goat is a production of Unanimous
Media and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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