May 25, 2021 • 38 mins
An out of body experience is what it’s like when Rabia gets a chance to hang out with one of her favorite people, host and creator of the hit shows "True Crime Obsessed" and "Obsessed With Disappeared", Patrick Hinds. Listen as Patrick shares his lifelong supernatural experiences and realizes they were djinn all along.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. Hi, and
(00:30):
welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
(00:53):
how and why this series came about in a very
personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
I am so excited for this conversation this week because
I'm getting to have a really fun conversation with a
good friend of mine, somebody I love and admire, um,
and somebody who's kind of like a co conspirator in
(01:13):
the true crime space, UM, and somebody I'm a fan of.
Patrick Heinz Patrick Hynes. For those of you know who
Patrick is. You probably discovered him on his incredibly popular
podcast called True Crime Obsessed. But Patrick has been in
the podcast business way longer than that. He was podcasting
back in two thousand and thirteen, well before everybody else was.
(01:34):
He was the founder of the Theater Podcast Productions, and
he's also the creator, co producer and host of The
Theater People Podcast, a very cool podcast featuring full length
interviews of Tony Winners of Broadway Legends and today's brightest
theater stars. Now, since then, Patrick has moved on into
the true crime space, really just taking it over with
True Crime Obsessed, his co host Jillian Pensylvali and his
(01:56):
fairly new show called Obsessed with Disappeared Um, which I
love both of them. I follow them religiously to my
favorite shows. But we're not gonna be talking about true
crime today. Well okay, maybe just a little bit. We
will be talking about some some some intersections between true
crime and the supernatural world. We're gonna be talking about
the fact that Patrick, throughout his whole life, has experienced
(02:17):
all kinds of really interesting, supernatural and unexplicable phenomenon. Every
time he's talked about this online, I'm like just wrapped.
And I was like, when I started this podcast, I said,
you know what, I gotta talk to Patrick about all this,
and I also got to tell them all about the
gin because he knows nothing about them. So let's do
this let's talk to maybe one of my favorite people
in all of podcasting, Patrick Hines. Hi and welcome Patrick.
(02:40):
Thank you so much for joining me this week. Hi,
my love, it's it's so good to be your face.
Like I know, I was just gonna say that, I
get to like sit in my little studio and actually
I get to look at your glorious beauty. High you
know what I gotta say, Listeners, I'm sorry you don't
get to actually witness us. You're gonna get the audio,
but we get to see each other and that's fun.
And my hair is out of control right now. I
(03:02):
don't know you should like hang up on me. I'm
looking at my own hair in this thing, and like
I have not, I truly not had a haircut. Personal hygiene,
personal hygiene in the time of quarantine, personal grooming. It's
all optional. My eyebrows are about to grow together. At
least about the one eyebrow. You would have the most
glorious unit one you would make it cheat, I would say,
(03:26):
the face mask would really you know, like highlight it. Yeah,
that's but thank you so much again. And I know
here's the thing, this is the this is the fun
thing for me. Because Patrick was like, how do I
prepare for this? I was like, no, no, no, just
come on, I'm gonna And the other thing is that Patrick,
you know, I think nothing about this project and nothing
with the subject. But there's a reason I wanted you on.
(03:46):
So let me tell you a little bit about what's happening.
And so you are going to be part of my
Patreon series that goes along with the main Gin series
that by the time this airs, has already been airing.
Um so, do you have any idea what a GIN is? No?
I think that you and I talked about this, maybe
even a year ago. Um, when you were like, this
(04:07):
was beginning to bubble in your brain. Is something you
might want to do? I feel like it's the word
folklore comes to mind. But that's as much. That's as
far as I've got. Okay, So let me tell you
a little bit about the world of jin. Of course
you better be listened to my podcast by time. Are
you kidding? Already pre subscribed? Awesome? Um? So basically, yeah,
(04:28):
So the realm of Gin is there's tons of folklore
and legend and stories and like the but it's actually
much deeper than that because it's a tied to scripture.
It's tied to Jewish picture even and it's even pre
it's even pre Jewish Muslim Christian scripture, like the Jin
are referred to like forty times in the Muslim scripture.
Like that's how serious we take it, Like we're like, wow,
(04:49):
these things are real, and it is a huge universe
of them. I mean forget like any kind of like
Marvel universe of characters. Like, it's a huge universe of jin.
There's a million of them. Everybody has their personal one.
Is what You've got one with you right now. It's
gonna born and die with Yeah. Yeah, they're freaky um,
and so there's Jewish demonology tied with it. Then it
goes all the way back to antiquity like in Babylonia
(05:11):
and Assyria and like they were worshiped at one time.
It's freaking But the way that people who believe in
the Gym think about them is that they're kind of
responsible all this phenomenal. We can't figure out ghosts and
crop circles and whatever. It's it's it's all we all
just categorize it as, oh, it's a jin, it's a
gin ff thing with us whatever. Oh, I love it.
So when you told me you've had multiple like supernatural experiences,
(05:34):
I'm like, in my head, I'm like, oh that's Jim
Patrick has no idea. I give mess mugin. That's so interesting.
I when you say that they're born with you and
they die with you. I I've always felt that it's
it's weird. It's like, you know, I felt like you
have some presents or something. Yeah. Yeah, Like I think
(05:56):
about the handful of like supernatural experiences I've had in
my life are like probably number in like the eight
to ten. You know that's good. That's a lot. Yeah,
Well one is happening right now. Girl. I So we're
at our office and we have this door that we
like our office has a couple of different rooms in it,
and there's this door that keeps opening by itself, and
(06:18):
it's so it's just it's so freaky and like there's
no it's just the door. It's not like a traditional
door that you can like close and you hear it
like lap but like you pull it close. It's kind
of like a cheap, flimsy door. So maybe there's just
something wrong with the door, but like you can hear
it click shut, and then like when you're not looking,
(06:42):
it just opens by itself. It's very freaky. Well, this
is this this kind of like the latest phenomena. But I
want to go I want to like take Patrick back
to like a little Patrick. Yeah, I want to hear
about Okay, first of all, were you raised in any
kind of like a faith tradition or any kind of
like any kind of tradition that actually would like you know,
kind of accounts for some of your like ideas around
(07:02):
these things. Um So, so my mom is a lesbian.
I was raised in like the lesbian but my mom
was like a very is a very staunch Christian, and
she was a Catholic forever. Loved being Catholic. I was
an ultra boy forever. I really enjoyed it as a
young person, do I know. I like, I'm a very
(07:24):
spiritual person. I totally believe in God, but like I'm
not a religious person at all. And um but my
mom was very I mean this is a little bit
like lesbian nineties lesbian style. My mom was very into
like crystals and energy and go, like, you know, any
time I had any sort of experience, my mom totally
believed me, you know, And I would always tell her
(07:46):
about it. Yeah, yeah, and so like I mean, from
the time that I was a little kid, I would
I guess I would say, this sounds so corny, but
like I would have weird little premonitions, nothing major, but
I would sort of like a song, Like we'd be
in the car and like we'd be listening to the
radio and I'd be humming a song and it would
(08:06):
be like the next song that would come on or whatever.
But then I would start having like weird I know,
I started having weird like not weird, but I started
having like dreams and sort of like, um, I mean
when I was in like middle school, high school, I
would have like out of body experiences sometimes and it
would be like it was it would be like when
(08:26):
I would okay, let me ask this. Those out of
bodies were those something that you like wanted to have
and ord because look, I had a phase when I
was younger. Ilse like I heard about this thing and
I would try to make it happen. It didn't happen
for me. Yeah, I know, so I I did not
want it to happen. I wanted it to not happen.
And I had a couple of bouts of sleep paralysis,
(08:47):
which I don't know if you know about this, but
like like there were there were a condful of times
when I was like, you know, I would say probably
fourteen or fifteen, where I always took naps in the
afternoon because I would come home from school and then
I would have like drama club at like six o'clock,
so I would like take a nap in between. I
know it's such a little theater gay um, but like
I would that would be the time, like if I
was to have an out of body experience, it would
(09:09):
be then. And I remember one time experiencing this about
of like sleep paralysis where I was awake but completely
unable to move, and I saw things in my room,
like I saw like there was a woman who was
wearing like it looked like like almost like colonial garb,
like floating in my room. And I don't know if
(09:33):
it has to do with like puberty. I've read some
stuff that like that that that like that there is
something about that. But I remember talking to my mom
about this stuff. At the time. I saw a ghost
around the same time. It was not a scary experience,
but like I shared a room with my brother and
I remember waking up in the middle of the night
and there was this woman dressed sort of as a
(09:54):
nun that was sort of standing at the top of
our stairs, um in the like in the like in
the I don't know what you call that, like at
the top of the stairs. And I could see it
out of my bedroom. It wasn't scary. She came into
the room and like said, I know. She came into
the room and sat down on my brother's bed, and
for some reason, I was not scared, and she sort
of motioned for me to like lie back down, and
(10:15):
I did, and she started like stroking my brother's hair.
I know. But I remember talking to my mom about
this stuff, and my mom was saying, She's like, I
think that you're like a sensitive person like you you
experienced these things that she was saying, if you want
this to stop, you have to pray about it. You
have to pray and ask the universe or whatever God
(10:36):
you believe in to make it stop. And I did,
and it did, you know, it did for the most part.
I do think. I think um and and people do
believe like the veil for some is thinner right because
you are open to the possibility but you're also much
more sensitive and receptive to everything that's happening around you,
and you're willing to understand it in a certain way.
It's like how some people can actually be hypnotized for
(10:57):
real and some people dust cannot. We were just looking
about this yesterday. Is hypnotis real? Is that? Is it real? Yeah? Yeah,
it can. It can absolutely truly be used. I know
it sounds so crazy, but people have been able to
retrieve memories, real memories, actual like memories that I have,
like corroborated memories, verified that they couldn't before. Or they've
(11:18):
been able to remember even details like in criminal cases
of crimes or something. But it doesn't work for everybody.
I mean, you know, obviously our brains one of these
big old sponges. They see everything and hear stuff, and
it's it's in there somewhere. We just can't read it right,
because when you hear people under hypnosis and their voices
sound different, it's so creepy. Yeah. Now, I've talked to
(11:39):
people who have been hypnotized, and for for the for
the people who worked like I've tried to get hypnotized
because I was like I want to do this. It
didn't work for me because I was just too hyper
aware of you know, It's like it's like wanting it
to happen, wanting it to work. Yeah, I can't relax
in a bath because I'm like, you know, I'm sit
there and I'm like too hyper aware of everything that's
going on. My brain won't shut off. But I have
(11:59):
talked to people who really did experience it for real
and where it was able to help them act three um,
like through some therapy scenarios and stuff. So okay, so
I want to talk a lot. So you said it stopped,
So then like, for what month of your filthhood you
didn't experience it or what happened? I would say that
I felt more in control of it, you know what
I mean? Like I would say that like when I
was a kid, especially around my puberty years, like between
(12:23):
the ages of twelve to fifteen or sixteen, I feel
like this stuff was happening all the time, and it
felt like scary to me. And I kind of like
your brother too, or your mother too, or anybody else
in the family or just do do you know? That's
such an interesting question. I I have never we've never
talked about it. I would imagine that my mom, I
(12:44):
don't know, I've never God, Robbie, I'm now having this
realization of like, wow, a little bit self possessed, Arni
Patricks that like, you love to share these stories, but
you've never asked your own family if they've None of
my family has ever come up and said like any
like anything like this has ever happened to them, Because
I feel like your mom's response is almost the kind
(13:07):
of response that somebody would have if if they get it,
like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, like I totally yeah.
I mean, you know, my mom has always said that
her mother, who I never I guess I met her
when I was very very young, but I don't have
any memories of her. But she lived in Manhattan, and
I live in Manhattan. My mom's mom was like a
New Yorker, like you know, like loved New York and
(13:28):
the whole thing. My mom says that she feels like
her mother is like with me. So when you said that,
like they're born with you and they die with you
like that, that sort of struck me. Like I feel
like my my grandmother, who I've never met, I feel
like she is with me sometimes, Like there are times
that I I went to a medium once and had
like a reading and she was like, yeah, her Ruth,
(13:49):
like she said her name, and I was like, oh
my god, it's true. And she's like you should talk
to her, like you should talk to her because like
that makes it stronger, you know, don't know. Yeah, I
talked to her. She's probably in this room high room.
Hey girl opening the door in the other room. Okay,
So okay, the gosh well hopefully when I mean ruthe
(14:11):
but but okay, so the Ruth might be with you,
but there might be something else with you too. So
the gym that's born with you and dies with you,
that's like your own personal thing. But the ghost phenomena
of people like lingering with us, that's also. God I've seen,
I mean, I've seen people who have passed like in
my dreams that are so real that I just know
it's really I know they're actually talking to me. This
(14:32):
is not like me making stuff. That's how it really is. Totally. Yes,
I've said this recently. It was so funny. I was
we were when when the COVID first happened, before any
lockdowns or anything like that happened. My husband and my
daughter and I left the city because we knew that
they were gonna lock down Manhattan. We don't we live
in eight square feet. We're like, we gotta get out
(14:53):
of here. We don't have a yard, like our kids
got to be able to play outside. So we left.
We got a cabin in Massachusetts and I had I
had a ghost sighting there and it was just super
super boring ghost sighting. But I mentioned it that sounds
really like that. It's not even possible. You can not
have a super boring ghost sighting. Girl, This ghost was asleep.
It was so it was like, I'll tell you the
(15:14):
story in a second. But like I mentioned it on
True Crime Obsessed and somebody heard it and this lady
called me and asked me if she could interview me
about it, and I thought it was just for a blog,
and it ended up being for a story for the
New York Times. So I have told this now and
then I got a million interview request about it. I've
told the story like ten million times in the last
two months. But it was, um oh, I am very
(15:35):
concerned that I missed that story. How did that happen? Okay, Oh,
it's a fascinating story. It's all about people who are
seeing like ghosts in quarantine and like is it real
or are we all just like going crazy? Look that up. Okay,
it's really interesting. I mean, like, this was the thing
where I just woke up at like two in the
morning and I went to get a glass of water,
and as I was walking to like into the kitchen,
I noticed that there was like a person sitting at
(15:56):
the at the kitchen table, like an older man and
like a like an old school military uniform. And in
my brain it's sort of like made sense to me
because it wasn't our house, and I was like, oh,
this is like his house. And and then when I
sort of realized what was happening, I looked over and
I saw him and he had his head down on
his chest. He looked like he was asleep, and then
all of a sudden, he was just gone, Oh my gosh,
(16:17):
what God. And Julian said, Jillian my coast said to me,
go through the photo albums in the house and see
if you can find anybody who looks like him. But
I realized they have a whole family tree wall in
their house, and I went and looked at it, and
it goes all the way back, and I didn't really
see the ghost face, so I don't know what he
looks like. But I saw all these men from like
the twenties that looked like in these military uniforms, which crazy.
(16:41):
So I just have to know how the rest of
that night played out. Did you just get your water
and go back to bed, like, oh, well, I literally like, oh,
I just saw a ghost and then I went and
I almost didn't tell Steve, my husband, about it the
next day. It was such a non occurrence that I
almost didn't mention it. And I told him, And of
course Steve doesn't believe in any of this stuff. It's like, no,
(17:02):
Steve is the most like you know, you're born and
then you're you know, yeah, you're born and you die.
Guy out there, you just not believe in any of it.
Oh my gosh. It's tough to live with someone because
you know what, then the other person is like, oh,
you're just like some crazy conspiracy theorist. But I'm glad
you're making your marriage work despite this difference. But okay,
(17:26):
but even before you went out to this, I feel
like an old cabin in um in Matthews makes sense
to me, like that's where like if you're gonna find
like lingering spirits, that's gonna be there. But you've had
experiences like in flipp in Manhattan, right like in your
in your home. I'm trying to think about them, uh,
experience with Daisy or something. Oh yes, in our Okay.
(17:46):
So we've moved several times in the last couple of years.
But our first apartment that we lived in with Daisy day,
I never saw anything in this apartment but Daisy. We
would hear Daisy as like a two year old talking
to somebody, like literally, and then and then we and
we would like here on the baby monitor, and then um,
I'm trying one day, and then she started talking about
(18:07):
the man. She started talking about the man in her room.
So she would say, like, Daddy, the man woke me
up this morning. And I would say, which man, the
man that lives in my room? Daddy, the man that
lives in my room? I know, I know, Okay, Okay.
The debaby baby monitor have like was it a video monitor? No?
(18:30):
And that was the thing that we we had debated
getting and I was sort of like, I kind of
can't handle the idea of like seeing her talking to
like that would just scare the ship out of me.
And I can't handle that. But you could hear her talking, yeah,
so what do you do, Like George, don't really make
like real like they don't make like, you know, real sentences.
(18:51):
But she's responding, yeah, totally. And she would talk about
the man, the man that lived in her room, and
it was just like, oh my god. And you know
she six now and like I don't remember anything from
when I was two, she still talks about that apartment,
in that room, like there was she had some sort
of connection to it. Does she remember the man she
talked to? I haven't asked her about that in a
(19:11):
long time. I should ask her. I don't want to
scare her because now she would understand better, but I
should ask her about that. Well, what did she tell
you about the man? What did she have to say
about him? She would say, not a lot. I remember that,
like she would he would be there like when the
lights were off, like it was never when the lights
were on, and we never, like you can't get like,
(19:37):
Daisy is not one to Daisy is not a woman
of many words as it is, so as soon as
you she senses that you're trying to get information out
of her, she just completely clams up. So yeah, it
was it was always just more like, oh, the man
woke me up this morning, and it was something. It
wasn't like a thing that happened all the time. I
remember she probably said that like once or twice, and
it was like, oh my god, so did Steve. What
(19:59):
does Steve think? She's just loot any dream? Like he
just doesn't pay any attention to it. He's just like whatever,
She's just she's just talking, you know. Well, so let
me ask you this. If the nun didn't scare you,
was there ever? I'm guessing the sleep paralysis was kind
of frightening. That was terrifying. That was terrifying because I
knew I was awake and I couldn't move Like that
is positive you were awake. I mean, I guess I
(20:23):
would say I remember it so vividly now and I
remember in the moment, so it didn't right now, I'm
awake and like I'm very awake, right, but like it
didn't feel like this, But it definitely I never had
words for it until very recently. I feel like sleep
roalysis became a thing that people started talking about maybe
(20:43):
five or six years ago. So before that, I just
was like I was awake and I couldn't move. And
it wasn't like I came out of it. It was
like I kind of I guess I went back to
sleep and then I woke up. It wasn't like I
can't move, I can't move, I can't move it now
I can't move. Um, it was I I can't move
and that is terrifying. And there is a woman hovering
(21:04):
in my room. And so I never knew about When
I learned about sleep prosis and I learned I heard
other people's stories about it, it was similar where it
was like things that you would be having nightmares about,
but they're actually like they look real and they're in
your space. And I was like, I have that experience.
I I that happened to me. We'll be right back
(21:26):
after the short break. One of the one of the
episodes I do talk about sleep paralysis and actually how
common it is. And what's interesting is it's a phenomena
that's like experienced in every culture and every point in history.
It's been documented forever um and it's a it's very
everybody's experiences are really similar. What what is actually the
(21:49):
only usual difference is like kind of the cultural context.
So people are seeing things that makes sense to them.
So you might not see, for example, um, like a
creature from Zimbabwe, right because it's that makes sense in
your cultural right right there, you're gonna see, Yeah, you're
gonna see what would what would make sense to you
and scare you accordingly, Oh that's so interesting. Has that
(22:09):
ever happened to you? It has not. Um, I feel
like maybe I'm I don't know, maybe I need to
like soften my edges or something like I want, I
want to expect. I've had some experiences that are definitely
I feel like they're supernatural. Now, Susan Simpson, who's my
attorney in my colleague on Disclosed, is like somebody broke
into your house and did X Y Z and you
just never knew it. And I'm like, no, I don't
(22:30):
think that was what happened. I would imagine that Susan
Simpson is not a believer, And like, I feel like
Susan Simpson and Steve are very similar. Probably yeah, they're
very Yeah, you kind of if if I can see,
if I can touch it, I can understand it. Whatever.
But but I believe it's kind of like, you know,
one of the things I say, like you said at
the top of the show. You like at the top
of the episode you said, you know, I believe in God.
(22:51):
It's like if you believe in God, then it's like
where are your lines? Like you can't kind of be
like I believe in God, but I don't believe that
X Like if you can believe in something that kind
of fantastical, like why can't you leave in other things? Could?
I know? And I love that, Like I love the
freedom to think different things on different days, you know
what I mean, Like I think that like I definitely yeah, yeah,
(23:12):
Like I definitely believe in God. I want to believe
that there's some sort of afterlife, but like do I
believe in like heaven? That seems weird, you know what
I mean? Like, oh that's interesting. Okay, that's a whole show.
I know, I know, I know, because like if there's
an afterlife but there's nowhere to go, what do you
do just hang around? I know and think some people
(23:34):
get stuck here and where you know what I mean,
Like you would think that by now Like the other
like the counter to it is that like if there
was like a god in a heaven and like an afterlife.
You would think they're somebody would have been able to
prove it by now, don't you think. I mean only
the dead can prove. I mean like how do you
how do you don't know? I mean so okay, so
for me the whole I mean, that's why it's called faith, right,
(23:56):
Like you do you have to believe in something you can't,
you have no way to bear FI. Although I'd say
people who have had near life or near death experiences
excuse me, um, almost always come back with like if
they were not believers in something supernatural, they come back
as because they have a very and they all have
very similar of course, scientists are like, well that's your
brain breaking down that tunnel of light and yeah, I mean,
(24:19):
look if that's what the afterlife is, and um, but
it's hard for me to believe that outside of my
physical body, that I don't exist in another way like yeah, yeah,
that's what's hard to And I'll tell you, like I've
definitely experienced the I want to hear the auto body experiences. Hello,
so you have experienced it. Yeah, It's it's hard to
say because like I've never had the experience of like
(24:44):
floating out my window and like over this like now
I'm flying through the city. Like when you when I'm
awake and I think about out of body experiences, that's
kind of the the experience you want to have. And
it was one of the things when I was younger.
I would experience it when I was taking a nap.
It was never like at night when I was going
to sleep. You know, there was something about the taking
(25:05):
of a night and it would either be when I
was right when I was falling asleep or right when
I was waking up. I mean, have you ever heard
that experience when you're you're either trying to fall asleep
or you're just about to wake up, and you feel
like you're falling in like you kind of get that
sensation of following that's never happened to you, never happened
to me. I have a I have my weird in
that twilight whatever I call it, like twilight between sleep
(25:25):
and awake experiences. I always hear a door slam um,
and it's terrifying because I don't know if it's real
or not real, if somebody's somebody's outside, like you know,
that's my That's what I I've never had the falling experience,
but that's what interesting. So I've felt that, But I've
also had the experience of being asleep or being almost
asleep and starting to feel that separation. People are gonna
(25:48):
think I'm crazy, but starting to feel that separation of
like coming out of my body. And I remember when
I was younger really fighting it, being like, uh, like
it's so scary and you don't wanted to happen. And
oh recently, I would say, this happened to me while
I was living in my current apartment. We've been there
for about two years. I remember having the experience of
(26:10):
being like, okay, like let this happen, like let's see
what happens. Yeah, and sort of feeling that sort of
like coming out of my body and sort of I
expected it to feel like, Okay, now I'm floating around
my apartment and it wasn't that. It was much more
of like a blackness, just sort of like a like
(26:33):
a like a different like turn around and look at
your body, see or you know. I've never had that
experience that would be fucking terrifying to me, Like I
I would not enjoy that. This was more feeling that
sort of separation, feeling like I was out of my
body but not but not being able to see anything,
just sort of like a black haze of like you know,
(26:55):
sort of atmosphere. That's but but it was a really
like a sensation head But did you fall did you
fall asleep after that or did you wake up? Yes? No,
I fell asleep after that today. I mean there are
lots there are lots of stories about people who report
like being in surgery or having something procedure. I was
going to ask you about this, Yeah, and then they
(27:16):
say they want they could see that, and and the
things that they report seeing the doctors like, well, they
couldn't have known that because they were Like so there
was one doctor I was reading about who actually put
markers on the like somewhere on the gurney or whatever
they were on that you would not be able to
see just by like lying there, so that you would
have to have like you would have like to say,
(27:37):
like oh, like the letter R is written on like
the wherever, and like the only way you could know
that would be like if you actually came out of
your body and side like that makes totally like being
in surgery. That makes total sense. To me, you know that,
like you would have that sort of well you know,
I mean to me, Okay, maybe it's not scientific evidence,
but there it's evidence I feel like of something like
how how would somebody how had you explained somebody being
(27:59):
able to do that unless there's a consciousness that is
separate from the actual physical body. But anyway, after this,
basically nobody's gonna believe anything I do or say, So
I understand what they say with me, say with me.
I know, I know, I know. Let me ask you this. So,
you you mentioned that you went to a medium, and
I've heard you bring up mediums a number of times
in UM two Crib Obsess and also Obsessed with Disappeared,
(28:20):
because you know, I listened to both those shows. I
can't believe you listen to both of these shows. Oh
my god, you guys like you don't understand how many
dark Knights you've gotten me through. And some times I
love you guys. So and I've heard you bring up
me because I love it, because you kind of dangle
it out there because you want your like co host
to be like totally jump on and be like yeah, yeah,
I mean, but but then you cut it back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(28:41):
the whole thing. Like my my issue with like psychics.
I totally believe in psychics, but like I feel like
they always come out of the woodwork when there's like
like a like a known like when there's some sort
of like high profile case or whatever, and I feel
like it always leads to like a dive team of
twelve people dredging a lake and it costs the town
eight million dollars and it's a wee resources. But I
(29:01):
went to see um. I went to see a medium
who was a friend of our friend Laura Bricker when
I went to like yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't think
of Susan. Susan Gorman I think is her name. And
I went to see her and we had this really
cool session like it was. It was I got a
(29:22):
lot out of it. And she was one that like
knew my grandmother's name. It was weird. Wow, But had
you it wasn't the only time you've ever gone to
a medium? I think? So, I think it was. I
mean it's the kind of thing I would go all
the time, you know, it's just never think to do it. Yeah. Yeah,
it's like I don't get time for the manicure pedicure,
but you know, you know you want to get I'm
(29:45):
always fascinated when I hear stories about law enforcement themselves
reaching out to mediums. I'm like, that's a bold move
and you're realized putting yourself out there for some criticism
to be able to do. And I'm like, I want
to hear a story of like a case being solved
by a medium. Like if if law enforcement is reaching
out that often, there must be cases out there where
they've really helped. Well, there there's a new podcast. I know. Look,
(30:09):
inter section, the intersection between true crime and the supernatural?
Is this getting more and more clear here? Um? Totally? So?
Well do you, um, have you had a truly other
than the out of body experience? Have you had a
truly terrifying experience with what you think might be like
a malevolent spirit or something. No, I've never had that.
(30:30):
Let me think for just a second. No, I mean
there was so there when I where I was when
I was growing up. I grew up in this like
subdivision on Cape Cod and we had a pond. Uh,
there was like woods behind my house and then there
was a pond and there was a man who died
by suicide on one of the trees down there when
(30:51):
I was growing up, he took his own life. He
hanged himself, and for years, I mean for decades, the
rope was still there, and I know, I mean it's
just the rope that was tied around the like, yeah,
like for some reason, like when they took down the body,
like they just didn't like cut the rope all the way.
(31:12):
And there was always I don't know, there was something
about that area where I knew that man had died
and it was a place that I was at all
the time, you know, um that there was something about
that that area that felt scary to me. I mean,
obviously a person had died there, so maybe that was
just it and I was a kid, um, But I've
never had like, I know, I've never had like I
(31:35):
really like terrifying you know, like devil encounter or anything
like that. Have you? Uh No, But my husband was
convinced when I started like researching and scripting for this show.
He's like, we are totally a hundred be possessed now,
Like so far, other than like items being moved mysteriously,
(31:58):
nothing has happened. So I guess we're okay. I use
somebody who I use somebody who loves like horror and Halloween,
and I do. I like horror movies. I will say that, like,
since I became the father of a little girl, it's
sort of changed the way that I watched pop culture
or stuff, because I feel like I didn't for some reason.
(32:18):
I'm just a bad feminist and I didn't realize that,
like the way women are treated and abused in these
like for entertainment in these films is just like unwatchable
to me now. Um So that's something that's become more
clear to me, Like since I've been a dad, which
is stupid. You shouldn't need to have a daughter to
like recognize that women aren't being treated very well. Um
(32:38):
but I do like horror movies. I do like things
that scare me, but I get very scared, Like I
get very don't like jump out of the closet scenes.
Do you believe in the Devil? No? Really? Yeah, yeah,
I was just thinking about that because I was thinking
about how like I don't believe in possession. I don't
think that's a real thing. Any thing is happening there,
(32:59):
like mental illness her. Yeah, I mean, like all of
the possession stuff I've seen. I'm sorry, Catholics, forgive me.
I was one of you once. It feels very much
like an opportunity for like priests to hit women like
you always see these women like tied to chairs or
women tied to beds and just horribly abused, like you know,
(33:19):
watch a documentary like there's one. Um, there's a documentary
that we covered a couple of years ago called The
Devil and Father a mort Um and it was about
this possession of this woman in Italy and it was
they abused this woman. I mean, crazy story. I hated
watching it and so I don't know. I don't I
don't think I do believe in the devil. Now you
(33:42):
made me saying it out loud, Robi, what's gonna happen
to me? Now? It's okay, Ruth will protect you. Yeah, alright, Well,
I don't want to take up any more of your time.
But also this is a really fun conversation and I've
been thinking about it. I've been thinking about this for
a while because every time you something up and I
love that whenever you like post about it or tweet
(34:02):
about or anything, like, all your listeners are like totally
they're lined up with you man, they have your they
have your back. I know we have the most like
loyal listeners. Oh my god. I love that they'll follow
you anywhere, including into the general and Patrick, I know,
I can't wait. You guys were recording this like long
before your podcast is out. I cannot wait to hear it. Yeah,
I can't wait for you to hear it too. It's
(34:23):
gonna be a lot of fun and thank you again.
I can't wait for our listeners to hear this conversation because, Yeah,
you're just a good dear friend. And I think both
of us, both of us kind of like a very
sensitive these kinds of things. I know, like for me,
like I can't go to places like Alcatraz. I can't
go to places where I know people have suffered because
I can't. It just had my whole I can feel
that I feel too much pain in it. Yeah, I
(34:45):
went to Alcatraz and I actually loved my trip to Alcatraz.
Really it was weird. The reason I wanted to go
to Alcatraz is because Matthew Shepard. Do you remember that
Matthew sheff You know, the gay kid in Wyoming that
was tied to the fence and beaten to death in
nineteen of the eight The only really well known pictures
of him had been taken of him at Alcatraz like
the year before he was murdered. And so I wanted
(35:07):
to go and find the places at Alcatraz where he
had been, and that was I wanted to feel his energy.
That was kind of why I wanted to go there.
But he was, I mean, and I found there's a
these like set of stairs where he had like taken
some photos and it was kind of like a it
was a crazy moment to sort of be there and
be like he stood right here, Like that was crazy. Um,
(35:29):
But Alcatraz is I'm kind of the opposite. Not that
I want to go and like revel in a place
where people have suffered, but I love the idea of
being in a place where you know something has happened
and sort of trying to like feel that energy. Like
I I kind of like I'm drawn to that. Now.
I completely understand like the the flip side of that,
(35:51):
because like I really want to visit, Like Ashwitz, I
really want to visit, I mean, because I want to
bear witness to the atrocities. Um, I just don't wanna
it's when it feels like touristy that it's hard for me.
I think, thank you again, and uh, if you know,
keep us updated. I want to hear about all your
gen stories. Keep a look at and if you can
(36:12):
get a videotape of that door opening and closing in
your office, I have to see it. Oh my god,
I totally well, it's terrifying awesome, all right, girl, I
love you. Thank you for having me. I love you too,
and thank you for coming on. If you want to
follow Patrick more because now you love him the way
I love him, you can follow him online. You can
find him on Twitter and Facebook. His handle on Twitter
(36:33):
is at Patrick Kinds. Both of his shows that I
am just completely obsessed with are called true Crime Obsessed
and Obsessed with Disappeared hilarious true crime comedies, which I
know it sounds like it can't happen, but believe me,
they do it. They do it beautifully, tastefully, and it
will just leave you rolling. Find them both on your
favorite podcast apps, subscribe and don't forget to leave them
(36:53):
some love on iTunes. Thanks for listening. We'll be back
soon with more gin stories. I hope you enjoyed that
conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as
many people in the world with jin stories as there
are jin, so if you have one you'd like to share,
make sure to email it to me at the Hidden
Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th
(37:16):
H E H I D d N d J I
n N at gmail dot com. And until next time,
remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
(37:38):
Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbia
Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our
theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz. For more podcasts
from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
(37:59):
Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. Hi, and
(00:30):
welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
(00:53):
how and why this series came about in a very
personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
I am so excited for this conversation this week because
I'm getting to have a really fun conversation with a
good friend of mine, somebody I love and admire, um,
and somebody who's kind of like a co conspirator in
(01:13):
the true crime space, UM, and somebody I'm a fan of.
Patrick Heinz Patrick Hynes. For those of you know who
Patrick is. You probably discovered him on his incredibly popular
podcast called True Crime Obsessed. But Patrick has been in
the podcast business way longer than that. He was podcasting
back in two thousand and thirteen, well before everybody else was.
(01:34):
He was the founder of the Theater Podcast Productions, and
he's also the creator, co producer and host of The
Theater People Podcast, a very cool podcast featuring full length
interviews of Tony Winners of Broadway Legends and today's brightest
theater stars. Now, since then, Patrick has moved on into
the true crime space, really just taking it over with
True Crime Obsessed, his co host Jillian Pensylvali and his
(01:56):
fairly new show called Obsessed with Disappeared Um, which I
love both of them. I follow them religiously to my
favorite shows. But we're not gonna be talking about true
crime today. Well okay, maybe just a little bit. We
will be talking about some some some intersections between true
crime and the supernatural world. We're gonna be talking about
the fact that Patrick, throughout his whole life, has experienced
(02:17):
all kinds of really interesting, supernatural and unexplicable phenomenon. Every
time he's talked about this online, I'm like just wrapped.
And I was like, when I started this podcast, I said,
you know what, I gotta talk to Patrick about all this,
and I also got to tell them all about the
gin because he knows nothing about them. So let's do
this let's talk to maybe one of my favorite people
in all of podcasting, Patrick Hines. Hi and welcome Patrick.
(02:40):
Thank you so much for joining me this week. Hi,
my love, it's it's so good to be your face.
Like I know, I was just gonna say that, I
get to like sit in my little studio and actually
I get to look at your glorious beauty. High you
know what I gotta say, Listeners, I'm sorry you don't
get to actually witness us. You're gonna get the audio,
but we get to see each other and that's fun.
And my hair is out of control right now. I
(03:02):
don't know you should like hang up on me. I'm
looking at my own hair in this thing, and like
I have not, I truly not had a haircut. Personal hygiene,
personal hygiene in the time of quarantine, personal grooming. It's
all optional. My eyebrows are about to grow together. At
least about the one eyebrow. You would have the most
glorious unit one you would make it cheat, I would say,
(03:26):
the face mask would really you know, like highlight it. Yeah,
that's but thank you so much again. And I know
here's the thing, this is the this is the fun
thing for me. Because Patrick was like, how do I
prepare for this? I was like, no, no, no, just
come on, I'm gonna And the other thing is that Patrick,
you know, I think nothing about this project and nothing
with the subject. But there's a reason I wanted you on.
(03:46):
So let me tell you a little bit about what's happening.
And so you are going to be part of my
Patreon series that goes along with the main Gin series
that by the time this airs, has already been airing.
Um so, do you have any idea what a GIN is? No?
I think that you and I talked about this, maybe
even a year ago. Um, when you were like, this
(04:07):
was beginning to bubble in your brain. Is something you
might want to do? I feel like it's the word
folklore comes to mind. But that's as much. That's as
far as I've got. Okay, So let me tell you
a little bit about the world of jin. Of course
you better be listened to my podcast by time. Are
you kidding? Already pre subscribed? Awesome? Um? So basically, yeah,
(04:28):
So the realm of Gin is there's tons of folklore
and legend and stories and like the but it's actually
much deeper than that because it's a tied to scripture.
It's tied to Jewish picture even and it's even pre
it's even pre Jewish Muslim Christian scripture, like the Jin
are referred to like forty times in the Muslim scripture.
Like that's how serious we take it, Like we're like, wow,
(04:49):
these things are real, and it is a huge universe
of them. I mean forget like any kind of like
Marvel universe of characters. Like, it's a huge universe of jin.
There's a million of them. Everybody has their personal one.
Is what You've got one with you right now. It's
gonna born and die with Yeah. Yeah, they're freaky um,
and so there's Jewish demonology tied with it. Then it
goes all the way back to antiquity like in Babylonia
(05:11):
and Assyria and like they were worshiped at one time.
It's freaking But the way that people who believe in
the Gym think about them is that they're kind of
responsible all this phenomenal. We can't figure out ghosts and
crop circles and whatever. It's it's it's all we all
just categorize it as, oh, it's a jin, it's a
gin ff thing with us whatever. Oh, I love it.
So when you told me you've had multiple like supernatural experiences,
(05:34):
I'm like, in my head, I'm like, oh that's Jim
Patrick has no idea. I give mess mugin. That's so interesting.
I when you say that they're born with you and
they die with you. I I've always felt that it's
it's weird. It's like, you know, I felt like you
have some presents or something. Yeah. Yeah, Like I think
(05:56):
about the handful of like supernatural experiences I've had in
my life are like probably number in like the eight
to ten. You know that's good. That's a lot. Yeah,
Well one is happening right now. Girl. I So we're
at our office and we have this door that we
like our office has a couple of different rooms in it,
and there's this door that keeps opening by itself, and
(06:18):
it's so it's just it's so freaky and like there's
no it's just the door. It's not like a traditional
door that you can like close and you hear it
like lap but like you pull it close. It's kind
of like a cheap, flimsy door. So maybe there's just
something wrong with the door, but like you can hear
it click shut, and then like when you're not looking,
(06:42):
it just opens by itself. It's very freaky. Well, this
is this this kind of like the latest phenomena. But I
want to go I want to like take Patrick back
to like a little Patrick. Yeah, I want to hear
about Okay, first of all, were you raised in any
kind of like a faith tradition or any kind of
like any kind of tradition that actually would like you know,
kind of accounts for some of your like ideas around
(07:02):
these things. Um So, so my mom is a lesbian.
I was raised in like the lesbian but my mom
was like a very is a very staunch Christian, and
she was a Catholic forever. Loved being Catholic. I was
an ultra boy forever. I really enjoyed it as a
young person, do I know. I like, I'm a very
(07:24):
spiritual person. I totally believe in God, but like I'm
not a religious person at all. And um but my
mom was very I mean this is a little bit
like lesbian nineties lesbian style. My mom was very into
like crystals and energy and go, like, you know, any
time I had any sort of experience, my mom totally
believed me, you know, And I would always tell her
(07:46):
about it. Yeah, yeah, and so like I mean, from
the time that I was a little kid, I would
I guess I would say, this sounds so corny, but
like I would have weird little premonitions, nothing major, but
I would sort of like a song, Like we'd be
in the car and like we'd be listening to the
radio and I'd be humming a song and it would
(08:06):
be like the next song that would come on or whatever.
But then I would start having like weird I know,
I started having weird like not weird, but I started
having like dreams and sort of like, um, I mean
when I was in like middle school, high school, I
would have like out of body experiences sometimes and it
would be like it was it would be like when
(08:26):
I would okay, let me ask this. Those out of
bodies were those something that you like wanted to have
and ord because look, I had a phase when I
was younger. Ilse like I heard about this thing and
I would try to make it happen. It didn't happen
for me. Yeah, I know, so I I did not
want it to happen. I wanted it to not happen.
And I had a couple of bouts of sleep paralysis,
(08:47):
which I don't know if you know about this, but
like like there were there were a condful of times
when I was like, you know, I would say probably
fourteen or fifteen, where I always took naps in the
afternoon because I would come home from school and then
I would have like drama club at like six o'clock,
so I would like take a nap in between. I
know it's such a little theater gay um, but like
I would that would be the time, like if I
was to have an out of body experience, it would
(09:09):
be then. And I remember one time experiencing this about
of like sleep paralysis where I was awake but completely
unable to move, and I saw things in my room,
like I saw like there was a woman who was
wearing like it looked like like almost like colonial garb,
like floating in my room. And I don't know if
(09:33):
it has to do with like puberty. I've read some
stuff that like that that that like that there is
something about that. But I remember talking to my mom
about this stuff. At the time. I saw a ghost
around the same time. It was not a scary experience,
but like I shared a room with my brother and
I remember waking up in the middle of the night
and there was this woman dressed sort of as a
(09:54):
nun that was sort of standing at the top of
our stairs, um in the like in the like in
the I don't know what you call that, like at
the top of the stairs. And I could see it
out of my bedroom. It wasn't scary. She came into
the room and like said, I know. She came into
the room and sat down on my brother's bed, and
for some reason, I was not scared, and she sort
of motioned for me to like lie back down, and
(10:15):
I did, and she started like stroking my brother's hair.
I know. But I remember talking to my mom about
this stuff, and my mom was saying, She's like, I
think that you're like a sensitive person like you you
experienced these things that she was saying, if you want
this to stop, you have to pray about it. You
have to pray and ask the universe or whatever God
(10:36):
you believe in to make it stop. And I did,
and it did, you know, it did for the most part.
I do think. I think um and and people do
believe like the veil for some is thinner right because
you are open to the possibility but you're also much
more sensitive and receptive to everything that's happening around you,
and you're willing to understand it in a certain way.
It's like how some people can actually be hypnotized for
(10:57):
real and some people dust cannot. We were just looking
about this yesterday. Is hypnotis real? Is that? Is it real? Yeah? Yeah,
it can. It can absolutely truly be used. I know
it sounds so crazy, but people have been able to
retrieve memories, real memories, actual like memories that I have,
like corroborated memories, verified that they couldn't before. Or they've
(11:18):
been able to remember even details like in criminal cases
of crimes or something. But it doesn't work for everybody.
I mean, you know, obviously our brains one of these
big old sponges. They see everything and hear stuff, and
it's it's in there somewhere. We just can't read it right,
because when you hear people under hypnosis and their voices
sound different, it's so creepy. Yeah. Now, I've talked to
(11:39):
people who have been hypnotized, and for for the for
the people who worked like I've tried to get hypnotized
because I was like I want to do this. It
didn't work for me because I was just too hyper
aware of you know, It's like it's like wanting it
to happen, wanting it to work. Yeah, I can't relax
in a bath because I'm like, you know, I'm sit
there and I'm like too hyper aware of everything that's
going on. My brain won't shut off. But I have
(11:59):
talked to people who really did experience it for real
and where it was able to help them act three um,
like through some therapy scenarios and stuff. So okay, so
I want to talk a lot. So you said it stopped,
So then like, for what month of your filthhood you
didn't experience it or what happened? I would say that
I felt more in control of it, you know what
I mean? Like I would say that like when I
was a kid, especially around my puberty years, like between
(12:23):
the ages of twelve to fifteen or sixteen, I feel
like this stuff was happening all the time, and it
felt like scary to me. And I kind of like
your brother too, or your mother too, or anybody else
in the family or just do do you know? That's
such an interesting question. I I have never we've never
talked about it. I would imagine that my mom, I
(12:44):
don't know, I've never God, Robbie, I'm now having this
realization of like, wow, a little bit self possessed, Arni
Patricks that like, you love to share these stories, but
you've never asked your own family if they've None of
my family has ever come up and said like any
like anything like this has ever happened to them, Because
I feel like your mom's response is almost the kind
(13:07):
of response that somebody would have if if they get it,
like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, like I totally yeah.
I mean, you know, my mom has always said that
her mother, who I never I guess I met her
when I was very very young, but I don't have
any memories of her. But she lived in Manhattan, and
I live in Manhattan. My mom's mom was like a
New Yorker, like you know, like loved New York and
(13:28):
the whole thing. My mom says that she feels like
her mother is like with me. So when you said that,
like they're born with you and they die with you
like that, that sort of struck me. Like I feel
like my my grandmother, who I've never met, I feel
like she is with me sometimes, Like there are times
that I I went to a medium once and had
like a reading and she was like, yeah, her Ruth,
(13:49):
like she said her name, and I was like, oh
my god, it's true. And she's like you should talk
to her, like you should talk to her because like
that makes it stronger, you know, don't know. Yeah, I
talked to her. She's probably in this room high room.
Hey girl opening the door in the other room. Okay,
So okay, the gosh well hopefully when I mean ruthe
(14:11):
but but okay, so the Ruth might be with you,
but there might be something else with you too. So
the gym that's born with you and dies with you,
that's like your own personal thing. But the ghost phenomena
of people like lingering with us, that's also. God I've seen,
I mean, I've seen people who have passed like in
my dreams that are so real that I just know
it's really I know they're actually talking to me. This
(14:32):
is not like me making stuff. That's how it really is. Totally. Yes,
I've said this recently. It was so funny. I was
we were when when the COVID first happened, before any
lockdowns or anything like that happened. My husband and my
daughter and I left the city because we knew that
they were gonna lock down Manhattan. We don't we live
in eight square feet. We're like, we gotta get out
(14:53):
of here. We don't have a yard, like our kids
got to be able to play outside. So we left.
We got a cabin in Massachusetts and I had I
had a ghost sighting there and it was just super
super boring ghost sighting. But I mentioned it that sounds
really like that. It's not even possible. You can not
have a super boring ghost sighting. Girl, This ghost was asleep.
It was so it was like, I'll tell you the
(15:14):
story in a second. But like I mentioned it on
True Crime Obsessed and somebody heard it and this lady
called me and asked me if she could interview me
about it, and I thought it was just for a blog,
and it ended up being for a story for the
New York Times. So I have told this now and
then I got a million interview request about it. I've
told the story like ten million times in the last
two months. But it was, um oh, I am very
(15:35):
concerned that I missed that story. How did that happen? Okay, Oh,
it's a fascinating story. It's all about people who are
seeing like ghosts in quarantine and like is it real
or are we all just like going crazy? Look that up. Okay,
it's really interesting. I mean, like, this was the thing
where I just woke up at like two in the
morning and I went to get a glass of water,
and as I was walking to like into the kitchen,
I noticed that there was like a person sitting at
(15:56):
the at the kitchen table, like an older man and
like a like an old school military uniform. And in
my brain it's sort of like made sense to me
because it wasn't our house, and I was like, oh,
this is like his house. And and then when I
sort of realized what was happening, I looked over and
I saw him and he had his head down on
his chest. He looked like he was asleep, and then
all of a sudden, he was just gone, Oh my gosh,
(16:17):
what God. And Julian said, Jillian my coast said to me,
go through the photo albums in the house and see
if you can find anybody who looks like him. But
I realized they have a whole family tree wall in
their house, and I went and looked at it, and
it goes all the way back, and I didn't really
see the ghost face, so I don't know what he
looks like. But I saw all these men from like
the twenties that looked like in these military uniforms, which crazy.
(16:41):
So I just have to know how the rest of
that night played out. Did you just get your water
and go back to bed, like, oh, well, I literally like, oh,
I just saw a ghost and then I went and
I almost didn't tell Steve, my husband, about it the
next day. It was such a non occurrence that I
almost didn't mention it. And I told him, And of
course Steve doesn't believe in any of this stuff. It's like, no,
(17:02):
Steve is the most like you know, you're born and
then you're you know, yeah, you're born and you die.
Guy out there, you just not believe in any of it.
Oh my gosh. It's tough to live with someone because
you know what, then the other person is like, oh,
you're just like some crazy conspiracy theorist. But I'm glad
you're making your marriage work despite this difference. But okay,
(17:26):
but even before you went out to this, I feel
like an old cabin in um in Matthews makes sense
to me, like that's where like if you're gonna find
like lingering spirits, that's gonna be there. But you've had
experiences like in flipp in Manhattan, right like in your
in your home. I'm trying to think about them, uh,
experience with Daisy or something. Oh yes, in our Okay.
(17:46):
So we've moved several times in the last couple of years.
But our first apartment that we lived in with Daisy day,
I never saw anything in this apartment but Daisy. We
would hear Daisy as like a two year old talking
to somebody, like literally, and then and then we and
we would like here on the baby monitor, and then um,
I'm trying one day, and then she started talking about
(18:07):
the man. She started talking about the man in her room.
So she would say, like, Daddy, the man woke me
up this morning. And I would say, which man, the
man that lives in my room? Daddy, the man that
lives in my room? I know, I know, Okay, Okay.
The debaby baby monitor have like was it a video monitor? No?
(18:30):
And that was the thing that we we had debated
getting and I was sort of like, I kind of
can't handle the idea of like seeing her talking to
like that would just scare the ship out of me.
And I can't handle that. But you could hear her talking, yeah,
so what do you do, Like George, don't really make
like real like they don't make like, you know, real sentences.
(18:51):
But she's responding, yeah, totally. And she would talk about
the man, the man that lived in her room, and
it was just like, oh my god. And you know
she six now and like I don't remember anything from
when I was two, she still talks about that apartment,
in that room, like there was she had some sort
of connection to it. Does she remember the man she
talked to? I haven't asked her about that in a
(19:11):
long time. I should ask her. I don't want to
scare her because now she would understand better, but I
should ask her about that. Well, what did she tell
you about the man? What did she have to say
about him? She would say, not a lot. I remember that,
like she would he would be there like when the
lights were off, like it was never when the lights
were on, and we never, like you can't get like,
(19:37):
Daisy is not one to Daisy is not a woman
of many words as it is, so as soon as
you she senses that you're trying to get information out
of her, she just completely clams up. So yeah, it
was it was always just more like, oh, the man
woke me up this morning, and it was something. It
wasn't like a thing that happened all the time. I
remember she probably said that like once or twice, and
it was like, oh my god, so did Steve. What
(19:59):
does Steve think? She's just loot any dream? Like he
just doesn't pay any attention to it. He's just like whatever,
She's just she's just talking, you know. Well, so let
me ask you this. If the nun didn't scare you,
was there ever? I'm guessing the sleep paralysis was kind
of frightening. That was terrifying. That was terrifying because I
knew I was awake and I couldn't move Like that
is positive you were awake. I mean, I guess I
(20:23):
would say I remember it so vividly now and I
remember in the moment, so it didn't right now, I'm
awake and like I'm very awake, right, but like it
didn't feel like this, But it definitely I never had
words for it until very recently. I feel like sleep
roalysis became a thing that people started talking about maybe
(20:43):
five or six years ago. So before that, I just
was like I was awake and I couldn't move. And
it wasn't like I came out of it. It was
like I kind of I guess I went back to
sleep and then I woke up. It wasn't like I
can't move, I can't move, I can't move it now
I can't move. Um, it was I I can't move
and that is terrifying. And there is a woman hovering
(21:04):
in my room. And so I never knew about When
I learned about sleep prosis and I learned I heard
other people's stories about it, it was similar where it
was like things that you would be having nightmares about,
but they're actually like they look real and they're in
your space. And I was like, I have that experience.
I I that happened to me. We'll be right back
(21:26):
after the short break. One of the one of the
episodes I do talk about sleep paralysis and actually how
common it is. And what's interesting is it's a phenomena
that's like experienced in every culture and every point in history.
It's been documented forever um and it's a it's very
everybody's experiences are really similar. What what is actually the
(21:49):
only usual difference is like kind of the cultural context.
So people are seeing things that makes sense to them.
So you might not see, for example, um, like a
creature from Zimbabwe, right because it's that makes sense in
your cultural right right there, you're gonna see, Yeah, you're
gonna see what would what would make sense to you
and scare you accordingly, Oh that's so interesting. Has that
(22:09):
ever happened to you? It has not. Um, I feel
like maybe I'm I don't know, maybe I need to
like soften my edges or something like I want, I
want to expect. I've had some experiences that are definitely
I feel like they're supernatural. Now, Susan Simpson, who's my
attorney in my colleague on Disclosed, is like somebody broke
into your house and did X Y Z and you
just never knew it. And I'm like, no, I don't
(22:30):
think that was what happened. I would imagine that Susan
Simpson is not a believer, And like, I feel like
Susan Simpson and Steve are very similar. Probably yeah, they're
very Yeah, you kind of if if I can see,
if I can touch it, I can understand it. Whatever.
But but I believe it's kind of like, you know,
one of the things I say, like you said at
the top of the show. You like at the top
of the episode you said, you know, I believe in God.
(22:51):
It's like if you believe in God, then it's like
where are your lines? Like you can't kind of be
like I believe in God, but I don't believe that
X Like if you can believe in something that kind
of fantastical, like why can't you leave in other things? Could?
I know? And I love that, Like I love the
freedom to think different things on different days, you know
what I mean, Like I think that like I definitely yeah, yeah,
(23:12):
Like I definitely believe in God. I want to believe
that there's some sort of afterlife, but like do I
believe in like heaven? That seems weird, you know what
I mean? Like, oh that's interesting. Okay, that's a whole show.
I know, I know, I know, because like if there's
an afterlife but there's nowhere to go, what do you
do just hang around? I know and think some people
(23:34):
get stuck here and where you know what I mean,
Like you would think that by now Like the other
like the counter to it is that like if there
was like a god in a heaven and like an afterlife.
You would think they're somebody would have been able to
prove it by now, don't you think. I mean only
the dead can prove. I mean like how do you
how do you don't know? I mean so okay, so
for me the whole I mean, that's why it's called faith, right,
(23:56):
Like you do you have to believe in something you can't,
you have no way to bear FI. Although I'd say
people who have had near life or near death experiences
excuse me, um, almost always come back with like if
they were not believers in something supernatural, they come back
as because they have a very and they all have
very similar of course, scientists are like, well that's your
brain breaking down that tunnel of light and yeah, I mean,
(24:19):
look if that's what the afterlife is, and um, but
it's hard for me to believe that outside of my
physical body, that I don't exist in another way like yeah, yeah,
that's what's hard to And I'll tell you, like I've
definitely experienced the I want to hear the auto body experiences. Hello,
so you have experienced it. Yeah, It's it's hard to
say because like I've never had the experience of like
(24:44):
floating out my window and like over this like now
I'm flying through the city. Like when you when I'm
awake and I think about out of body experiences, that's
kind of the the experience you want to have. And
it was one of the things when I was younger.
I would experience it when I was taking a nap.
It was never like at night when I was going
to sleep. You know, there was something about the taking
(25:05):
of a night and it would either be when I
was right when I was falling asleep or right when
I was waking up. I mean, have you ever heard
that experience when you're you're either trying to fall asleep
or you're just about to wake up, and you feel
like you're falling in like you kind of get that
sensation of following that's never happened to you, never happened
to me. I have a I have my weird in
that twilight whatever I call it, like twilight between sleep
(25:25):
and awake experiences. I always hear a door slam um,
and it's terrifying because I don't know if it's real
or not real, if somebody's somebody's outside, like you know,
that's my That's what I I've never had the falling experience,
but that's what interesting. So I've felt that, But I've
also had the experience of being asleep or being almost
asleep and starting to feel that separation. People are gonna
(25:48):
think I'm crazy, but starting to feel that separation of
like coming out of my body. And I remember when
I was younger really fighting it, being like, uh, like
it's so scary and you don't wanted to happen. And
oh recently, I would say, this happened to me while
I was living in my current apartment. We've been there
for about two years. I remember having the experience of
(26:10):
being like, okay, like let this happen, like let's see
what happens. Yeah, and sort of feeling that sort of
like coming out of my body and sort of I
expected it to feel like, Okay, now I'm floating around
my apartment and it wasn't that. It was much more
of like a blackness, just sort of like a like
(26:33):
a like a different like turn around and look at
your body, see or you know. I've never had that
experience that would be fucking terrifying to me, Like I
I would not enjoy that. This was more feeling that
sort of separation, feeling like I was out of my
body but not but not being able to see anything,
just sort of like a black haze of like you know,
(26:55):
sort of atmosphere. That's but but it was a really
like a sensation head But did you fall did you
fall asleep after that or did you wake up? Yes? No,
I fell asleep after that today. I mean there are
lots there are lots of stories about people who report
like being in surgery or having something procedure. I was
going to ask you about this, Yeah, and then they
(27:16):
say they want they could see that, and and the
things that they report seeing the doctors like, well, they
couldn't have known that because they were Like so there
was one doctor I was reading about who actually put
markers on the like somewhere on the gurney or whatever
they were on that you would not be able to
see just by like lying there, so that you would
have to have like you would have like to say,
(27:37):
like oh, like the letter R is written on like
the wherever, and like the only way you could know
that would be like if you actually came out of
your body and side like that makes totally like being
in surgery. That makes total sense. To me, you know that,
like you would have that sort of well you know,
I mean to me, Okay, maybe it's not scientific evidence,
but there it's evidence I feel like of something like
how how would somebody how had you explained somebody being
(27:59):
able to do that unless there's a consciousness that is
separate from the actual physical body. But anyway, after this,
basically nobody's gonna believe anything I do or say, So
I understand what they say with me, say with me.
I know, I know, I know. Let me ask you this. So,
you you mentioned that you went to a medium, and
I've heard you bring up mediums a number of times
in UM two Crib Obsess and also Obsessed with Disappeared,
(28:20):
because you know, I listened to both those shows. I
can't believe you listen to both of these shows. Oh
my god, you guys like you don't understand how many
dark Knights you've gotten me through. And some times I
love you guys. So and I've heard you bring up
me because I love it, because you kind of dangle
it out there because you want your like co host
to be like totally jump on and be like yeah, yeah,
I mean, but but then you cut it back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(28:41):
the whole thing. Like my my issue with like psychics.
I totally believe in psychics, but like I feel like
they always come out of the woodwork when there's like
like a like a known like when there's some sort
of like high profile case or whatever, and I feel
like it always leads to like a dive team of
twelve people dredging a lake and it costs the town
eight million dollars and it's a wee resources. But I
(29:01):
went to see um. I went to see a medium
who was a friend of our friend Laura Bricker when
I went to like yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't think
of Susan. Susan Gorman I think is her name. And
I went to see her and we had this really
cool session like it was. It was I got a
(29:22):
lot out of it. And she was one that like
knew my grandmother's name. It was weird. Wow, But had
you it wasn't the only time you've ever gone to
a medium? I think? So, I think it was. I
mean it's the kind of thing I would go all
the time, you know, it's just never think to do it. Yeah. Yeah,
it's like I don't get time for the manicure pedicure,
but you know, you know you want to get I'm
(29:45):
always fascinated when I hear stories about law enforcement themselves
reaching out to mediums. I'm like, that's a bold move
and you're realized putting yourself out there for some criticism
to be able to do. And I'm like, I want
to hear a story of like a case being solved
by a medium. Like if if law enforcement is reaching
out that often, there must be cases out there where
they've really helped. Well, there there's a new podcast. I know. Look,
(30:09):
inter section, the intersection between true crime and the supernatural?
Is this getting more and more clear here? Um? Totally? So?
Well do you, um, have you had a truly other
than the out of body experience? Have you had a
truly terrifying experience with what you think might be like
a malevolent spirit or something. No, I've never had that.
(30:30):
Let me think for just a second. No, I mean
there was so there when I where I was when
I was growing up. I grew up in this like
subdivision on Cape Cod and we had a pond. Uh,
there was like woods behind my house and then there
was a pond and there was a man who died
by suicide on one of the trees down there when
(30:51):
I was growing up, he took his own life. He
hanged himself, and for years, I mean for decades, the
rope was still there, and I know, I mean it's
just the rope that was tied around the like, yeah,
like for some reason, like when they took down the body,
like they just didn't like cut the rope all the way.
(31:12):
And there was always I don't know, there was something
about that area where I knew that man had died
and it was a place that I was at all
the time, you know, um that there was something about
that that area that felt scary to me. I mean,
obviously a person had died there, so maybe that was
just it and I was a kid, um, But I've
never had like, I know, I've never had like I
(31:35):
really like terrifying you know, like devil encounter or anything
like that. Have you? Uh No, But my husband was
convinced when I started like researching and scripting for this show.
He's like, we are totally a hundred be possessed now,
Like so far, other than like items being moved mysteriously,
(31:58):
nothing has happened. So I guess we're okay. I use
somebody who I use somebody who loves like horror and Halloween,
and I do. I like horror movies. I will say that, like,
since I became the father of a little girl, it's
sort of changed the way that I watched pop culture
or stuff, because I feel like I didn't for some reason.
(32:18):
I'm just a bad feminist and I didn't realize that,
like the way women are treated and abused in these
like for entertainment in these films is just like unwatchable
to me now. Um So that's something that's become more
clear to me, Like since I've been a dad, which
is stupid. You shouldn't need to have a daughter to
like recognize that women aren't being treated very well. Um
(32:38):
but I do like horror movies. I do like things
that scare me, but I get very scared, Like I
get very don't like jump out of the closet scenes.
Do you believe in the Devil? No? Really? Yeah, yeah,
I was just thinking about that because I was thinking
about how like I don't believe in possession. I don't
think that's a real thing. Any thing is happening there,
(32:59):
like mental illness her. Yeah, I mean, like all of
the possession stuff I've seen. I'm sorry, Catholics, forgive me.
I was one of you once. It feels very much
like an opportunity for like priests to hit women like
you always see these women like tied to chairs or
women tied to beds and just horribly abused, like you know,
(33:19):
watch a documentary like there's one. Um, there's a documentary
that we covered a couple of years ago called The
Devil and Father a mort Um and it was about
this possession of this woman in Italy and it was
they abused this woman. I mean, crazy story. I hated
watching it and so I don't know. I don't I
don't think I do believe in the devil. Now you
(33:42):
made me saying it out loud, Robi, what's gonna happen
to me? Now? It's okay, Ruth will protect you. Yeah, alright, Well,
I don't want to take up any more of your time.
But also this is a really fun conversation and I've
been thinking about it. I've been thinking about this for
a while because every time you something up and I
love that whenever you like post about it or tweet
(34:02):
about or anything, like, all your listeners are like totally
they're lined up with you man, they have your they
have your back. I know we have the most like
loyal listeners. Oh my god. I love that they'll follow
you anywhere, including into the general and Patrick, I know,
I can't wait. You guys were recording this like long
before your podcast is out. I cannot wait to hear it. Yeah,
I can't wait for you to hear it too. It's
(34:23):
gonna be a lot of fun and thank you again.
I can't wait for our listeners to hear this conversation because, Yeah,
you're just a good dear friend. And I think both
of us, both of us kind of like a very
sensitive these kinds of things. I know, like for me,
like I can't go to places like Alcatraz. I can't
go to places where I know people have suffered because
I can't. It just had my whole I can feel
that I feel too much pain in it. Yeah, I
(34:45):
went to Alcatraz and I actually loved my trip to Alcatraz.
Really it was weird. The reason I wanted to go
to Alcatraz is because Matthew Shepard. Do you remember that
Matthew sheff You know, the gay kid in Wyoming that
was tied to the fence and beaten to death in
nineteen of the eight The only really well known pictures
of him had been taken of him at Alcatraz like
the year before he was murdered. And so I wanted
(35:07):
to go and find the places at Alcatraz where he
had been, and that was I wanted to feel his energy.
That was kind of why I wanted to go there.
But he was, I mean, and I found there's a
these like set of stairs where he had like taken
some photos and it was kind of like a it
was a crazy moment to sort of be there and
be like he stood right here, Like that was crazy. Um,
(35:29):
But Alcatraz is I'm kind of the opposite. Not that
I want to go and like revel in a place
where people have suffered, but I love the idea of
being in a place where you know something has happened
and sort of trying to like feel that energy. Like
I I kind of like I'm drawn to that. Now.
I completely understand like the the flip side of that,
(35:51):
because like I really want to visit, Like Ashwitz, I
really want to visit, I mean, because I want to
bear witness to the atrocities. Um, I just don't wanna
it's when it feels like touristy that it's hard for me.
I think, thank you again, and uh, if you know,
keep us updated. I want to hear about all your
gen stories. Keep a look at and if you can
(36:12):
get a videotape of that door opening and closing in
your office, I have to see it. Oh my god,
I totally well, it's terrifying awesome, all right, girl, I
love you. Thank you for having me. I love you too,
and thank you for coming on. If you want to
follow Patrick more because now you love him the way
I love him, you can follow him online. You can
find him on Twitter and Facebook. His handle on Twitter
(36:33):
is at Patrick Kinds. Both of his shows that I
am just completely obsessed with are called true Crime Obsessed
and Obsessed with Disappeared hilarious true crime comedies, which I
know it sounds like it can't happen, but believe me,
they do it. They do it beautifully, tastefully, and it
will just leave you rolling. Find them both on your
favorite podcast apps, subscribe and don't forget to leave them
(36:53):
some love on iTunes. Thanks for listening. We'll be back
soon with more gin stories. I hope you enjoyed that
conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as
many people in the world with jin stories as there
are jin, so if you have one you'd like to share,
make sure to email it to me at the Hidden
Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th
(37:16):
H E H I D d N d J I
n N at gmail dot com. And until next time,
remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
(37:38):
Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbia
Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our
theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz. For more podcasts
from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
(37:59):
Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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