June 22, 2021 • 41 mins
This week we're excited for journalist Baxter Jackson to join us and share his experiences traveling and writing about the gulf region, his introduction to the djinn lore by the locals, and witnessing an exorcism he will never forget.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
(00:30):
welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
people from all walks of life who have had Gin experiences,
are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
(00:53):
how and why this series came about in a very
personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
I'm so excited to bring you this guest this week.
His name is Baxter Jackson, and I found Baxter when
I was doing my research for the Hidd Engine, well
(01:15):
before the show ever aired, and he was gracious enough
even though he was halfway across the world and had
just begun a vacation. He lives in the Gulf Um,
the Gulf Regent, and he was vacationing up in Europe
and uh, but I managed to nail him down and
we did a transatlantic interview. So I came across Baxter
when I found a couple of articles he had written
(01:36):
he's a journalist along with many other things he does,
UM about things he had witnessed himself in a place
that's one of the most haunted regions apparently in the world,
Bahda and oman Um. And I was so fascinated with
his experience that I really wanted to talk to him,
and I thought you guys would love to hear from him.
So I've been holding on this interview for so long,
(01:57):
and since this week's episode is all about summoning the
in Um, I thought this was kind of like a
perfect time to air it. So let me tell you
a little bit about Baxter. Baxter Jackson is a writing
instructor at a university in the desert oasis of Ian
in the United Arab Emirates. While living in the Middle
East for the past thirteen years, including stints in Egypt,
Ohman and again the ui E, he has been crafting
(02:19):
unique cultural interest stories about his experiences for travel websites
such as Lonely Planet, the Metador Network, and local publications
such as Outdoor U A E. You can find Baxter
on YouTube and Instagram. Again, It's Baxter Jackson, and well,
come and join me as I speak to Baxter. It's
a great conversation. Hi Baxter, thanks for joining me on
(02:43):
the show this week and my pleasure. Happy to be here. Um. So,
you know, I want to start off by talking just
about I've told our listeners a little bit about your
work in journalism and specifically kind of get the work
you've done in the Middle East. Can you tell us
about your body of work and how you ended up
doing that? Well, I was I just happened to get
(03:03):
an opportunity to teach at the American University in Cairo,
and when I was there, that was sort of my
introduction to the Middle East. And I've always been interested in, um,
you know, paranormal phenomenon. I've always had kind of a
longing to believe that there's something else out there, you know,
some other side to life that we don't get to see.
And UM, so that's Um what were you teach something?
(03:25):
Were you teaching something related to like paranormal phenomenon or no? No, no,
no at all. I was working at the Writing Centers
basically like a writing tutor and on a scholarship at UC. So. Um. Yeah,
but that was my introduction to the to the Middle East.
And um, but I've never written about, you know, paranormal
phenomenon before. I was before I happened to find myself
(03:47):
years later in oman which is where you find Bahala,
which is like the kind of the epicenter of all
things that go bump in the night. For as far
as you know, in the Muslim world goes, they don't
if anyone, if any Arab has ever heard of oman Um,
then they know they know about it from Bahlah's like
Bahlah's you know, whisper kind of Yeah, my my introduction
(04:12):
to Baha lah and Um and how it is like
kind of this hotbed of activity. Actually, I didn't know
this until I found your article and I was so
excited to read it and it was a fascinating piece
and I'm gonna link it for everybody so they can
made it as well. And I have referenced it in
the series Um and So. But but but that was
that was like your first introduction to the world of
(04:33):
gin or I'm assuming it couldn't have been. You must
have heard about this before that. I mean I heard
about genies of course. I mean in popular culture in
the West, you know, we see genies and like Aladdin
and movies like that, and so yeah, and I dream
of Genie. I mean I was born in the seventies,
so I grew up with I dream a Genie. But
I never thought like, Okay, this is the real thing
(04:54):
or not, you know, I mean I just thought it
was like one of these you know, popular myths or whatever.
So at what point did you realize that there are
people who think this is a real thing? Was it?
It was it during that story, no matter, was it
before that? Like, was there any other interaction for well, no,
I mean I've had I had a couple of experiences
(05:15):
and um, when I was living in Cairo that made
me realize that you know that most Muslims consider Jen
to be, you know, just as real as God or
the prophet Muhammad or any other you know, part of
anything that's send the Koran. Did they take it mostly
mostly it's taken literally, you know, and a lot of people, uh,
(05:36):
you know, I started to hear stories about Gin or
like weird things that would happen and people would say
it's a gin you know, and um, but you know,
for me, it was just kind of like, okay, it's
like a grimlin did it, you know, like or something
like that. You know in the West, they've experienced something
that can't explain, So I'm just kind of projecting onto it. Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, okay,
so tell me. Okay, the month story starts off with
(05:57):
you kind of waiting for a woman who's going to
be joining you to get exercise basically, and so there's
a story before that, like how did you how did
she hear view, how did you connect with her? And
how did you why did you decide to like oh, yeah,
this is something I totally want to be part of. Well, yeah,
that's um. I've written a story about Mualm Salem. She
(06:21):
is like the most famous exorcist in bah Blah, and
I was I was living in ns Woman, which is
about maybe four kilometers away, and so I've written a
story about him, and she saw it online and then
she wanted to and she turns out she actually was
possessed by a gender had been possessed by jen for
for many years. And she had actually gone to chargea
before to meet with a medium or a woman a
(06:44):
Syrian woman there who was who could sort of like
soothsayer or like she you know, sort of a gypsy
type where she could predict your future. See what's wrong
with you, and you can't tell give you a diagnosis.
And she was the one who confirmed her suspicion that
she was actually possessed by gin and and then she was.
Then she went to see Sheik and Sharjan and that
(07:07):
helped for a little while, but the problem persisted. So
she this woman wasn't like from the region, right, like
she flew from the other side of the world. She's
from Rhode Island actually, but living in Boston. And her only,
her only connection to the Middle East was I mean,
she has Middle Eastern friends that she made because she's
a she was tutoring some some students studying there in
(07:30):
Boston who happened to have, you know, Middle Eastern background,
and so that was that was her only connection. She'd
she'd been to like Duban, and she'd I think she'd
been took a few other different places in the Middle
East a few times, and had some kind of like
import export business, you know, she would get things that
people needed in different parts of the world. But other
than that, like, no, no Middle Eastern background whatsoever. Like
(07:52):
she wasn't Mustlim her son and she wasn't Muslim, no, no,
not even did she talk to you about what those
problems look like. I mean, like she's traveling across the
world to to get help for her issues. What were
what was she experiencing? Yeah, yeah, she said that she
would have like these night terrors, like she would just
wake up and like you know, in a sweat, and
(08:14):
she was she felt like someone was in the room
with her, and like and then when she did feel
that present, she felt like someone was pushing down on
her chest. She had like a normally heavy minstrual cycle. Um,
one of her one of her her I think it
was a left or I can remember which I was,
but clouded over. And she went to see a doctor
and that didn't like you know, in traditional Western doctor
(08:38):
and nothing, nothing seemed to work, and she's you know,
and then she began to become like increasingly paranoid, and um,
you know, she wasn't getting sleep, and it was just
she felt like her life without a control, you know,
And so she was she was desperate enough to you know,
start doing research and and then she ran across the
(08:58):
article that I had written for out Door about about
this guy and while salom and she contacted me and
she said, you know, I'm an American. I live in
Boston and I have a gym problem. But I'm not crazy,
you know. And then of course my first thought was
she must be. But so I thought, you know, um,
I'm open to new experiences, and I've already met with
(09:20):
him once and it would really be no problem. I
would I would go to Moscot all the time from
as well anyways for the weekend skateboarding, hang out with
my friends. So you know, it was just like, no
sweat off my back. So I thought, you know, why not,
I'll just I'll meet her and see what her story
is and put her in contact with this guy, and
let's see what happens. So, okay, can we talk a
little bit about how the first piece came about? It
(09:41):
wasn't just that you moved to Amana you heard about
him or like how did how how did that happen? Yeah?
Well I heard about him from my from my students.
Well I heard about Bahala from my students, you know,
like they wouldn't even want to haunt town type of right, Yeah,
and so you just just I they're so paranoid about
(10:02):
they won't even they don't like they're not comfortable talking
about Jen at all. You know, like the as soon
as you say jin and like this milla, you know,
and then they you know, they wanted the jim to
go away, if that's how you get a jim to
go away to say this. But anyways, they think it's
like bad karma or just it's like courting, courting bad
luck or ill fortunate to even talk about Jen's But anyways,
(10:24):
I learned about it um him, or about Bahhala in general,
you know, the reputation Bahhla from from my students. But
then um, one of my colleagues, she's Omani, and you know,
I asked her like, do you know anyone who actually
so I asked her about it about you know, do
you know anyone who does this kind of thing? Because
I was really curious to see what, you know, how
(10:45):
it might differ from like the exorcistem I've seen in
movies and things like that, you know, let's the Islamic
slant on it, you know. And um, so, yeah, she happened.
She did a little poking around and she put me
in contact with him, and yeah, what was that meaning?
Like it was kind of weird? Uh, he was kind
(11:09):
of I mean, he was sort of enigmatic. I mean
he was like, uh, my Arabic wasn't that good at
that point, so I had to have translated with me.
But um, he was. He was open enough to meet
with us and you know, um, you know, suffer through
my questions and uh so yeah he was. He was
a nice guy. And he didn't mean he didn't seem
(11:30):
like like a magician or like any kind of I mean,
I wouldn't have noticed him like walking down the street.
He didn't like stand out and he just seemed like
typical old old money dude. You know. He was he'd
been in the army and he had seen all the
changes of the moon had gone through, like when you know,
slavery was still in effect there and like the sixties
and he saw that the changes and um, you know
(11:52):
how there was like nothing there but at that point
and like in the sixties and even not until the
seventies when Sultonica Booze took her really start to move
from backwater into like uh, you know, first world nation.
So he's seen all that, so it's pretty why is
an interesting guy? So they were when you met him.
(12:13):
And look, I've had I've met some folks who who
claimed to you know, be involved this kind of stuff
and and some of them right off the bat, You're like,
this guy, this person is like it's total connor, Like,
did you get any sense of that or did he
seem like he was really sincere? No. I think he
genuinely believes in what he's doing, and I think he's
(12:35):
he's he claims to have helped over five thousand people
and you know, during his whole tenure as a as
a molem to get rid of Gin and so I mean,
and I've heard lots of stories from other people about him,
So yeah, I mean he seemed like the real deal.
So you travel he lives in Bahlad, right m hm.
And as you traveled to the most haunted place in
(12:56):
the I guess in the Middle East. And how is that?
I mean, did you get a set like what's that
place like? Well, um, it looks like a typical little
sleepy like mountain Hamlet, you know. I mean, it's just
it's in it's in the western the western Hajjar Mountains,
and they're pretty rugged and desolate, and it looks a
(13:20):
lot like Mars. Actually, if she's never been to Aman,
it looks like that's they could film. They could film
Mars there easily or a movie about Mars there, you know. Um,
and it's just a it's just a little town. There's
a stoop and um. You know, it's not nothing really
remarkable about it except that there is a castle there.
And that castle is like kind of the one of
(13:43):
the hot spots for paranormal activity in in Bahala because
they've been trying to restore since like the nineties. And
every time they go in and they do something, then
they come back the next day and it's been undone
and a lot of people say, well, it's the gin,
you know. They don't. They don't like their people coming
in and messing with the place where they're they're haunting.
(14:04):
So that's why it's taken so long for it to
finally open. I think it was open just a couple
of years ago. Finally. I guess the gym like the
ruins ruined. They don't renovation. Yeah, I mean they need
the atmosphere. I guess did you did you spend much
time or do you say the night where you like
trying to like see if you could. Unfortunately you can't
(14:26):
do that. I would have loved to do that with
like a school Scooby doo kind of thing, I know,
to spend the night in the castle I mean or
in bah blad cell I mean either yeah, but the
cattle or not. No, I didn't do that, and I
never spent the night in Blahlabah. I didn wander around
the soup, and the soup has an interesting um. There's
a what my students called the Leading tree. So supposedly
(14:49):
there was there were some people that were someone who's
who was suspected of practicing witchcraft, I think, and that
it was sometimes between the twelve and the six fourteenth
century and anyway, so they executed a few people who
are who are who they've suspected to be witches there
and on this particular tree. And so this this true.
(15:11):
My students told me that if you just touch this tree,
you'll like you'll be cursed and you'll all all these
horrible things will happen to you. And so I had
to go see it, of course, and I had to
touch it. And so I'm still, yes, yes, you know,
I wanted to see something, you know, like that. I've
always had a longing in for, you know, for there
to be something else, you know besides this this. You know,
(15:33):
there's got to be something else out there. We'll be
right back after the short break. When you say that
you have always felt like there's something out there, what
what is like kind of like the framework of your
beliefs is it? Is it kind of like in a
religious sense, or is it kind of like in a
supernatural sense, or is it just like your childhood stories
of stuck with you? What do you think is up there?
(15:55):
I have no idea, you know, really, I just but
I haven't feeling that there means from the things that
I've seen and and other stories and the stories that
I've been told, you know, I'd like to think that
there's some something else out out there, you know, some
kind of power greater than myself, you know that's controlling
and uh controlling, pulling the strings, you know, like in
(16:17):
the in the Puppet Show or something. But uh, but yeah,
what um. When I was in my twenties, I was
really into Carlos Casta Meta and so I read a
lot of his stuff, and I went to Mexico and uh,
you know, followed some of the things that he does
in his books to try to have us to try
to recreate you know, his experiences, um um. And you know,
(16:41):
I've always just been a fan of of those kind
of those kind of stories, you know, because I think
it's some kind of human um longing to for there
to be something else besides this world. And and that's
I think it's really comforting. And any kind of evidence,
even if it's scary or um, you know, even even
(17:03):
if you even if you would not like to have
any kind of face to face encounter with it, it is.
I think it's reassuring to know that there is something else,
you know. I think that's why people look to religion
and they look too, you know, they want to believe
these kind of stories, because it gives them some sense
of comfort that you know that the death is not
(17:24):
the end. It is just you know, a new beginning.
That's interesting. I never actually thought about that. I mean,
I I thought about people's belief in the paranormal in
the sense that, okay, we have to find some way
to explain things that we can't understand. The unknown itself
is scary. But I never thought about it um from
that angle that if we believe in something, even if
(17:45):
it's something evil, something terrifying, something that we don't want
to encounter, it means that we're not. It like, there's
definitely a world greater than us, and there's other things
and that has its own sense of hope attached to it.
That's really interesting. Um okay, So I want to talk
about when when that lady arrived from Boston and you
received her, and what was your impression and uh what happened?
(18:08):
Tell us the story. Yeah, well, um, you know, she
didn't look like she was possessed by Jim. She looked
a little jet lagged, and she was personable, and you know,
she seemed like someone I would you know, I could
connect with her because I think for the same reason
they I mean, for the same for the reason she
(18:31):
was there in Oman. She she flew all the way
just for this and she didn't even stay like she
just came for that. She did. She she went for
Rukia for for the exorcism and then and she was
gone like the next day. So uh so I kind
of I like those kind of people. I like the
kind of people that were you know, they take it
to the they see how far can they can take it,
(18:52):
you know, And um, she seemed like that kind of lady. Um. Yeah,
But so it was me and her and my friend Hemmed.
He was. He was Um, he's a local guy and
he had never he'd heard of Wadam Silent but he
never met him. But he went along as our translator
and so the local who was he was game to
(19:12):
go to the most haunted place in the country. Yeah,
but he's you know how many this kind of a
westernized guys. He's spent a lot of time with ex
pats and Kay, he's not your typical money you know,
he's um. Most of the monies are like really friendly
and you know, really willing to be like you know,
typical like a hospitable kind of people. Uh. But he's
(19:36):
you know, more open minded to you know, these kind
of things. He actually had a few experiences. He had
he had one experience before with the Gin. And you know,
if you if you talked to Um, Yeah, if you
talk to anyone who's uh, who's in Islam or you know, Muslim,
and no, almost everyone believes in jin and they almost
all believe in angels too, But no one, no one
(19:57):
I've met, has ever had an experience at first an
experience with an angel. But almost everyone has some kind
of Gin story. So I don't know what that tells
you yeah, but that's I think that's a very astute
observation and what would you come to think of it?
Although I will say my one of my grandfather's claims
to have had an encounter with angels in Mecca. But
(20:20):
that's like one out of every single Muslim I nose,
so it's very wrong. Wow okay, So so okay, So
you pick her up and you drive and suddenly there's
a storm. Well I've been brewing that day. You know.
It was like at that time of the year, we
get these winds from the north to Chamalia and sometimes
(20:41):
it you know, it collides with the um with the
moisture from the gulf of them on and you know,
we get these big sandstorms. So yeah, I've been brewing
that day and and it was it was a pretty
bad one actually. I mean the visibility was really low
and I was driving my little keep a count don't
I was getting battered around the road on the road
(21:02):
and you know, there's kind of spattered, there's spattering him
rain here and there, and everyone's driving with their lights
on and so it's yeah, I was did anything perfect
like signs to you. I was like, this is like
a movie, man, this is so cool. This is like,
you know, this is like can't pick up. We couldn't
have picked a better day to go to blah bla,
you know, for the atmosphere. So I was like, you know,
(21:24):
I was really I was into us as I was
loving it and I was like eating it up. Yeah.
So then you get to uh Bam Salem's house and
tell me what that was, like, what they what happened. Well,
I wasn't even sure if he was going to be there,
So there was a little tension and there there because
you know, because she she flew come all this way,
(21:45):
and you know, I talked to him like a couple
of days before, but we hadn't reconfirmed. You know, in
the in the Middle East, you always have to like,
you know, okay, you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be
coming over tomorrow, you know, and then you reconfirmed the
day of and like when you're about to leave, you
send a message and then you know you have to
like this has to be a lot of reassurance of
people just assume you're not gonna come. So I didn't
do any of that. I just did kind of like
(22:05):
the Western thing and like, okay, I'll see in two
days and you know, I didn't talk to him again. So, um,
but he's retired, so you know, we're too gonna go.
He's he's there at this house most of the time.
So anyways, we got there and and yeah, so I
introduced it introduced him to this woman from Boston and
my friend hmmed and and the storm was, um, it was.
(22:30):
It was kind of strange because the storm was all
around us at this point, you know, and it was
but I guess we're like in the eye of the
storm or something. And so so yeah, that was that
was a little weird. And there was like this it
was like this kind of electric electricity in the air,
I guess from the I don't know how electricity builds,
but how that works, but there's like these little you know,
(22:52):
like I guess the static electricity or what it is
in the in the clouds. So it was an eerie
kind of atmosphere for you know, a day for an
exorcistem you know. Um. So yeah, um, and didn't what
happened well, um, and then we were we came we
went inside and um, and then the and then the
(23:14):
electricity went off, not immediately, but at some point you know,
when we started the When we started the um, we
were they were going to do the wood, which is
like when you you know, the ritual cleansing of the
hands and feet, you know, because it is you know,
a sacred Islamic ritish and there's a certain protocol to
(23:35):
be fallen. But so um, but we we just he
decided to skip that because um, because the electricity went out,
and you know, there was so yeah, I guess the
electricity went off because of the storm, you know, And
so he lit a candle and then there was like this.
(23:55):
When he lit the candle, it was like this strange
shadow across the wall. I don't know if it was
from the candle or and it's like the smell of
sulfur that it could have been from the matches. I
don't know, but at all it was like it was
really weird. And then what did the shadow look like?
What was what was the shape the shadow? It was
just like I don't know, if you've ever been up
(24:15):
for a few days in a row and you start
to see this, it's kind of it was like that
it was like one of these shadows that you catch
like in the in the corner of your out of
the corner of your eye, and you're not sure if
you really saw it or not, but it's enough to
make to give you the creeps, you know, give you
a you know question, were you the only one to
see it? Or did anybody see it? Now? We all
(24:36):
kind of we all like turned our heads and like, okay,
what the hell was that? You know? So yeah, um,
so the lights flickering and then uh, maybe it was
maybe it was some kind of I don't I don't
know what the sound was, but it was like it
was like a strange kind of a whispering sound at
the same time the shadow appeared. And then and then
(24:58):
at that point that at that point, um, while I'm
Stylom started to surrect to recite apart from the last
two chapters of the Koran, which were all about, you know,
what to do in these kind of situations when someone
is possessed by a gent so he started to recite that,
and um, yeah, so that was what's going on with
(25:22):
the woman who's possessed. So she like lying on the floor.
She I mean, we exercist. I'm assuming it wasn't that extreme. No,
she didn't float, unfortunately, but but that was at that
point I wouldn't have you know, I wouldn't have been surprised,
So uh yeah, she she lied back down on she
she lied on the in the middle of the room,
(25:42):
down on the middle of the room. And then and
she and he was like reciting the Koran over her,
and then her looked like that her eyes rolled rolled
back into her head and she you could see like
the whites of her eyes only, and and she let
out to smoan. It was like some kind of like
I don't know, like a primal scream or something. And
(26:05):
it was weird. It was like definitely nothing I've ever
experienced before. You know, did you feel scared in the moment?
It was like it was so strange that I was
I felt like frozen, kind of like I don't know
if I mean, it was it was so weird. I
was like it was so um like captivating, but the
(26:26):
captivating it was kind of like like watching a train wreck.
You know, you can't pull away, you can't pull your
eyes away, So uh yeah, it was. It was. It
was Mondo bizarre for sure. And but did you get
me answer, did you get the sense that what was
happening in front of you was like real? That's the thing.
(26:48):
I think that's that's what made me not want to
look not want to look away, because I wanted to
see like, Okay, this is this like actually happening. And
it was like because you know, as he was reciting this, this,
as they was reciting the Koran this, uh yeah, she
started to make this the sound and and the you know,
the whites of her eyes and the storm and it
(27:10):
was it was it was intense, you know, it was
like it was really it was heavy. So um so yeah,
I mean I was just I just saw what I saw,
and I don't I don't know if it was that's
really what what happened, you know, if it was you know,
the gin was actually leaving her body, but it seemed
to me that that's like I think that's what was happening.
(27:32):
I mean, I can't there's no way I could like
confirm scientifically, you know, like this is true what happening,
And it was just my experience and what I saw.
But but that's also that's also I'm assuming what um
the exorcist said was happening. And she reported that she
felt was happening too, that this thing was leaving her body. Yeah. Afterwards,
(27:55):
she said that she felt like a sense of you know,
lightness like she I mean, she was and disoriented at first,
and um, she doesn't remember the point when we were like,
you know, holding her down because she started convulsing, you know,
after this primal scream came out, came out of her
and before she settled down. And at one point I
(28:17):
remember that a few years ago. So I'm just trying
to uh, the molem had some holy water and he
like splashed her with it, and you know, um so
um so she began and you guys had to hold
like physically like me and Hammed had to hold her
(28:38):
her arms down. So she she's like started to like
thrash about. And I guess this is at this point
when the you know, the gin was leaving her body
or whatever it was. You know, maybe it was maybe
it wasn't a gym. Maybe it was like her repressed
traumatic memories or I don't know, um, who knows what
(28:59):
what the gin really is, you know, And maybe it
was just like a way for the people and a
long time ago to try to explain this kind of
like epilepsy or like these other kind of the childhood
traumas or something you know, like post traumatic stress disorder.
I don't know, I don't know what it was, but
uh something, but something was happening for sure. So how
(29:22):
long did this exorcism like take place. It wasn't that long. Actually,
it was like maybe ten and fifteen minutes. I mean
once it's once I get started. Yeah, it's pretty quick.
I mean it's quick work to extract a gin from somebody,
it seems like given what we've seen like in the
movies and film and stuff. But and how how was
she afterwards? Yeah, she seemed like she seemed really happy that.
(29:47):
I mean, she was kind of just warranted at first.
And um, she really wanted a cigarette afterwards because it was,
like I AM, pretty intensive experience for her, I guess,
but she she felt like I think she felt that
she was it was worth her while to come all
that way to him on to you, to do the
research to find me and to go visit this guy.
(30:08):
And and I'm assuming he charges for his services, right,
Like how does he make a living? Yeah? Yeah, he does, Um,
and that's up that's just up to the client. I
mean I think she gave him like a hundred dollars
or something like that. Whatever the client wants to give. Yeah,
just like she didn't. He didn't have like at price
(30:28):
price list on the door, and so yeah, yeah, so, um,
your story ends, Your story about her ends kind of
mysteriously because it seems like later on she feels like,
actually she is still possessed. Yeah. Um, so you guys,
(30:49):
basically after she left, you stayed in touch. No, we didn't,
not for a long time, and then just just a
couple of I guess it was just last year. I
started to think about the experience and thought, you know,
that was that's kind of a crazy story. You know
why I should I should write that up. And so
I contact her again just to check up, you know it, saying, hey,
you know how to go with you did? Did your
(31:09):
visit to Aman? Did it really help you? And she
told me that it did for a while, you know
it did. It definitely brought her some kind of peace.
But she had to go on and do some further research,
and she ended up going to Indonesia because there's a
lot of possessions in Indonesia and there's lots of people
who do the rukia there and she had to really
(31:33):
she told me a really crazy story about you know
that involved blood and maggots and um, and there was
some kind of nefarious like, um, not everybody in Indonesia
who does these exorcisms is on the level, so there's
some some nefarious things going on. And I think she
(31:54):
encountered one of those, if I remember correctly, she encountered
one of those guys. She was uh, basically kind of
doing like a parlor trick to to satisfy his clients.
And you know with the kind of like what they did.
And I can't remember when it was popular, but at
one point in the United States, these seances, the contacting
(32:15):
the dead was like a really popular fun thing to
do at parties, you know, and they would bring in
these mediums and there's a lot of people like that
and it used to do this, but you know, in
the Islamic world, um, not just for fun, but you know,
for profit and for because people would like so fervently
believe and you know that they're possessed by these gend
they're willing to go to any length. And then if
(32:37):
they get these dramatic results and you know there's blood
and maggots and weird things happening like you see in
the in the horror films that they have a huge
horror film industry in Indonesia by the way. But anyway,
so if you so, if you see these kind of
things and you feel like you're getting your money's worth
and you know, and it creates more business for the guy.
So UM, So that happened to her and then and
(32:57):
then I think she finally did find someone who's legitimate.
And I haven't heard from her since and that was
that was that was last year, the last time I
heard from her. Um. But she also I think she
later she went to Malaysia because there's a big um
because Malaysians Muslim country, and so there's lots of people
who are possessed there. And then there's the whole Malaysians
(33:20):
uh slant on how exorcisms are done, and you know
what that entails. And so I think there's so much,
there's so much I don't know about it. You know.
What I experienced was just like a little you know,
like a little snapshot of like a much bigger picture
of if you you know, if you're looking into paranormal
phenomenon in Islamic world, I'm guessing. Um, every kind of
(33:44):
culture has its own like you know, angle to the
exorcisms that like resonates with with the locals and makes
sense given like the context and stuff. And that's also
something that I thought it would be kind of formulated
and that makes sense. It's really interesting. So for you, um,
what have you thought about like and one other things?
(34:08):
I mean, that's this is not the only stuff you've
write about. You write about like you your work is
like about a lot of different like cultural aspects of
that region. But it's something that you've thought about pursuing
more in depth, Like is it something you still think
about or you're just like, wow, that was interesting and
I'm I'm done. It's it is what it is. No,
I mean, I would love to go to Indonesia to
(34:30):
look more into like what's happening there, because I think
that's a really interesting situation there because of the mix
of beliefs there. You know, they have before before Islam came,
there was I mean there was Hinduism, and before Hinduism
they had the Japanese had their own animistic beliefs and
those beliefs mixed with the Hinduism, and then they brought
(34:51):
some of those beliefs with them into Islam. And so
like this really interesting mix of beliefs and they all
seem to to co exist fairly peacefully, you know, like
when there was a riot or something going on. But
I just they think the mix of that would be
really interesting to see and I would like to go
visit some of these Charlottean's, you know, to see just
(35:11):
try to sort out who's real and who's not, you
know what anything that would be and I mean the
fascinating peace to to go, especially with someone who was like,
you know, truly felt like they were actually affective and
had it were possessed by Jen, you know, to that
would I think that would be a pretty moving peace.
Have you are you do you still living them on? No,
I'm in the UI, you know, but I mean I
(35:33):
mean Czech Czech Republic for the summer, but and living
in the U A un okay, something similar there? Or
is it? Is it kind of a different culture much
more like kind of progressive there? Well, um, it's not
famous for having you know, the there's no ba in
the UI e but um there there is um some
(35:56):
degree of you know, the same beliefs there because it
is and it's you know, Muslim country and so um
you know, occasionally it comes up when I'm with my students.
You know, we talked about these these kind of things
come up, and uh, sometimes we'll talk about gin and
angels and you know, these these different beliefs and so
the people but they're believing them too, you know. So
(36:18):
and most of my students have some kind of story
that involves the gin. So uh. And then you know
the first person that the woman from Boston that I helped,
she went, she went to go see was actually in charge.
So there's there are people who do exercistems there too. Mhm. Well,
I I mean I don't know if I'd be able to,
(36:39):
but I'd love to speak to this lady. And given
especially the fact that she's kind of traveled the world
and I mean took I mean that's you know, I
mean like that's something that you're taking very seriously if
you're gonna be that committed to addressing this issue. Um,
so maybe that's a possibility. But um, what are your
(36:59):
kind of like plans going forward? You have any other
anything in the pipeline? And where do you write because
I'd love for our listeners to check out your pieces. Yeah,
most of my stuff you can find on the Matador Network.
Just google Baxter Jacks to Matador. The list should pop
up of most of my pieces that have been for
them over the years. I'm assuming you're open to other
(37:21):
people reaching out with their GIN stories. Yeah, I would
love to hear them for sure. That I mean, I'm
fascinated by the supernatural and people have had firsthand experiences
like that. So yeah, well, I'd love it if you
ever returned to Oman and did like a ghost Hunter's
type of episode in Bahalla. That would be a lot
of take some video. Yeah, but I would love to
(37:45):
do that. It would be cool the Ghostbusters the Oman
edition exactly. Well, thank you so much. This has been
really interesting and I guess I just want to end
with one final kind of question to you, although I
feel like you've answered it in different ways, um, and
that is this after everything kind of you you've lived
in the region what thirteen years now, um, and everything
(38:06):
you've have experienced firsthand and stories you've heard, like where
do you got to fall on the spectrum of like
do you believe jin exists? I don't know, UM, I
mean I know what I saw, I know what other
people have experienced. UM. I like to believe I guess.
I guess you could say that I'm sort of still agnostic.
(38:29):
I don't. I don't know for sure, but you don't
know that they don't. You don't know that they don't. Right,
that's right, what about you and your Muslin? Right? I am? Yeah,
I well, you know, it's one of those things where
it's like the way I think about it was like
like if I if I am a person of faith,
(38:50):
like pretty much of any faith, and I have some
belief in something supernatural, this is how religion is, and
so then how do you draw a line where I
believe this? But that's going too far? Right? Like so
to me, I, like you said, if you believe in
angels and you believe in God and you believe in Satan,
then like why are Jim's way too fantastical? Like that's
(39:10):
so that the realm of But yeah, let's right, let's
not go too far. Um, so it's not too far
from me. I do absolutely believe there are phenomen that
we don't understand, we might not ever understand. I don't
think everything that people experience they think is jin is
always jin. I think there are often times and I've
seen this myself in my own life where people have
(39:33):
let's say, deep mental health issues or they are trauma.
There's so many other things that happened that we might
interpret that way or it's just easier to deal with
that way. Maybe. But having said that, I mean when
I hang out in the castle and at night, probably not.
(39:53):
I'm not trying to court. I don't want to bring
them home. And honestly, to be honest, Baxtor, And in
this interview series, the very first episode I hope you
get a chance to listen to it will be with
my husband talking about like our personal experience and so
I have had some experiences that I'm like, I what
else could it be? Like a GIN or something anyhow,
(40:17):
But anyway, thank you again. I really appreciate your time,
and I'm going to continue to follow your work and
I help you get to Indonesia and uh and fill
us all in And you know I would totally read
that and watch that. Okay, Hey, thanks, thanks a lot
for for this interview. I hope you enjoyed that conversation
(40:38):
as much as I did. Now, there are as many
people in the world with GIN stories as there are GIN,
So if you have one you'd like to share, make
sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin
at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H
E H I D D E N d J I
n n at gmail dot com. And until next time,
(41:00):
remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah
Chaudrey and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
(41:24):
executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our
theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts
from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
(00:30):
welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
people from all walks of life who have had Gin experiences,
are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
(00:53):
how and why this series came about in a very
personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
I'm so excited to bring you this guest this week.
His name is Baxter Jackson, and I found Baxter when
I was doing my research for the Hidd Engine, well
(01:15):
before the show ever aired, and he was gracious enough
even though he was halfway across the world and had
just begun a vacation. He lives in the Gulf Um,
the Gulf Regent, and he was vacationing up in Europe
and uh, but I managed to nail him down and
we did a transatlantic interview. So I came across Baxter
when I found a couple of articles he had written
(01:36):
he's a journalist along with many other things he does,
UM about things he had witnessed himself in a place
that's one of the most haunted regions apparently in the world,
Bahda and oman Um. And I was so fascinated with
his experience that I really wanted to talk to him,
and I thought you guys would love to hear from him.
So I've been holding on this interview for so long,
(01:57):
and since this week's episode is all about summoning the
in Um, I thought this was kind of like a
perfect time to air it. So let me tell you
a little bit about Baxter. Baxter Jackson is a writing
instructor at a university in the desert oasis of Ian
in the United Arab Emirates. While living in the Middle
East for the past thirteen years, including stints in Egypt,
Ohman and again the ui E, he has been crafting
(02:19):
unique cultural interest stories about his experiences for travel websites
such as Lonely Planet, the Metador Network, and local publications
such as Outdoor U A E. You can find Baxter
on YouTube and Instagram. Again, It's Baxter Jackson, and well,
come and join me as I speak to Baxter. It's
a great conversation. Hi Baxter, thanks for joining me on
(02:43):
the show this week and my pleasure. Happy to be here. Um. So,
you know, I want to start off by talking just
about I've told our listeners a little bit about your
work in journalism and specifically kind of get the work
you've done in the Middle East. Can you tell us
about your body of work and how you ended up
doing that? Well, I was I just happened to get
(03:03):
an opportunity to teach at the American University in Cairo,
and when I was there, that was sort of my
introduction to the Middle East. And I've always been interested in, um,
you know, paranormal phenomenon. I've always had kind of a
longing to believe that there's something else out there, you know,
some other side to life that we don't get to see.
And UM, so that's Um what were you teach something?
(03:25):
Were you teaching something related to like paranormal phenomenon or no? No, no,
no at all. I was working at the Writing Centers
basically like a writing tutor and on a scholarship at UC. So. Um. Yeah,
but that was my introduction to the to the Middle East.
And um, but I've never written about, you know, paranormal
phenomenon before. I was before I happened to find myself
(03:47):
years later in oman which is where you find Bahala,
which is like the kind of the epicenter of all
things that go bump in the night. For as far
as you know, in the Muslim world goes, they don't
if anyone, if any Arab has ever heard of oman Um,
then they know they know about it from Bahlah's like
Bahlah's you know, whisper kind of Yeah, my my introduction
(04:12):
to Baha lah and Um and how it is like
kind of this hotbed of activity. Actually, I didn't know
this until I found your article and I was so
excited to read it and it was a fascinating piece
and I'm gonna link it for everybody so they can
made it as well. And I have referenced it in
the series Um and So. But but but that was
that was like your first introduction to the world of
(04:33):
gin or I'm assuming it couldn't have been. You must
have heard about this before that. I mean I heard
about genies of course. I mean in popular culture in
the West, you know, we see genies and like Aladdin
and movies like that, and so yeah, and I dream
of Genie. I mean I was born in the seventies,
so I grew up with I dream a Genie. But
I never thought like, Okay, this is the real thing
(04:54):
or not, you know, I mean I just thought it
was like one of these you know, popular myths or whatever.
So at what point did you realize that there are
people who think this is a real thing? Was it?
It was it during that story, no matter, was it
before that? Like, was there any other interaction for well, no,
I mean I've had I had a couple of experiences
(05:15):
and um, when I was living in Cairo that made
me realize that you know that most Muslims consider Jen
to be, you know, just as real as God or
the prophet Muhammad or any other you know, part of
anything that's send the Koran. Did they take it mostly
mostly it's taken literally, you know, and a lot of people, uh,
(05:36):
you know, I started to hear stories about Gin or
like weird things that would happen and people would say
it's a gin you know, and um, but you know,
for me, it was just kind of like, okay, it's
like a grimlin did it, you know, like or something
like that. You know in the West, they've experienced something
that can't explain, So I'm just kind of projecting onto it. Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, okay,
so tell me. Okay, the month story starts off with
(05:57):
you kind of waiting for a woman who's going to
be joining you to get exercise basically, and so there's
a story before that, like how did you how did
she hear view, how did you connect with her? And
how did you why did you decide to like oh, yeah,
this is something I totally want to be part of. Well, yeah,
that's um. I've written a story about Mualm Salem. She
(06:21):
is like the most famous exorcist in bah Blah, and
I was I was living in ns Woman, which is
about maybe four kilometers away, and so I've written a
story about him, and she saw it online and then
she wanted to and she turns out she actually was
possessed by a gender had been possessed by jen for
for many years. And she had actually gone to chargea
before to meet with a medium or a woman a
(06:44):
Syrian woman there who was who could sort of like
soothsayer or like she you know, sort of a gypsy
type where she could predict your future. See what's wrong
with you, and you can't tell give you a diagnosis.
And she was the one who confirmed her suspicion that
she was actually possessed by gin and and then she was.
Then she went to see Sheik and Sharjan and that
(07:07):
helped for a little while, but the problem persisted. So
she this woman wasn't like from the region, right, like
she flew from the other side of the world. She's
from Rhode Island actually, but living in Boston. And her only,
her only connection to the Middle East was I mean,
she has Middle Eastern friends that she made because she's
a she was tutoring some some students studying there in
(07:30):
Boston who happened to have, you know, Middle Eastern background,
and so that was that was her only connection. She'd
she'd been to like Duban, and she'd I think she'd
been took a few other different places in the Middle
East a few times, and had some kind of like
import export business, you know, she would get things that
people needed in different parts of the world. But other
than that, like, no, no Middle Eastern background whatsoever. Like
(07:52):
she wasn't Mustlim her son and she wasn't Muslim, no, no,
not even did she talk to you about what those
problems look like. I mean, like she's traveling across the
world to to get help for her issues. What were
what was she experiencing? Yeah, yeah, she said that she
would have like these night terrors, like she would just
wake up and like you know, in a sweat, and
(08:14):
she was she felt like someone was in the room
with her, and like and then when she did feel
that present, she felt like someone was pushing down on
her chest. She had like a normally heavy minstrual cycle. Um,
one of her one of her her I think it
was a left or I can remember which I was,
but clouded over. And she went to see a doctor
and that didn't like you know, in traditional Western doctor
(08:38):
and nothing, nothing seemed to work, and she's you know,
and then she began to become like increasingly paranoid, and um,
you know, she wasn't getting sleep, and it was just
she felt like her life without a control, you know,
And so she was she was desperate enough to you know,
start doing research and and then she ran across the
(08:58):
article that I had written for out Door about about
this guy and while salom and she contacted me and
she said, you know, I'm an American. I live in
Boston and I have a gym problem. But I'm not crazy,
you know. And then of course my first thought was
she must be. But so I thought, you know, um,
I'm open to new experiences, and I've already met with
(09:20):
him once and it would really be no problem. I
would I would go to Moscot all the time from
as well anyways for the weekend skateboarding, hang out with
my friends. So you know, it was just like, no
sweat off my back. So I thought, you know, why not,
I'll just I'll meet her and see what her story
is and put her in contact with this guy, and
let's see what happens. So, okay, can we talk a
little bit about how the first piece came about? It
(09:41):
wasn't just that you moved to Amana you heard about
him or like how did how how did that happen? Yeah?
Well I heard about him from my from my students.
Well I heard about Bahala from my students, you know,
like they wouldn't even want to haunt town type of right, Yeah,
and so you just just I they're so paranoid about
(10:02):
they won't even they don't like they're not comfortable talking
about Jen at all. You know, like the as soon
as you say jin and like this milla, you know,
and then they you know, they wanted the jim to
go away, if that's how you get a jim to
go away to say this. But anyways, they think it's
like bad karma or just it's like courting, courting bad
luck or ill fortunate to even talk about Jen's But anyways,
(10:24):
I learned about it um him, or about Bahhala in general,
you know, the reputation Bahhla from from my students. But
then um, one of my colleagues, she's Omani, and you know,
I asked her like, do you know anyone who actually
so I asked her about it about you know, do
you know anyone who does this kind of thing? Because
I was really curious to see what, you know, how
(10:45):
it might differ from like the exorcistem I've seen in
movies and things like that, you know, let's the Islamic
slant on it, you know. And um, so, yeah, she happened.
She did a little poking around and she put me
in contact with him, and yeah, what was that meaning?
Like it was kind of weird? Uh, he was kind
(11:09):
of I mean, he was sort of enigmatic. I mean
he was like, uh, my Arabic wasn't that good at
that point, so I had to have translated with me.
But um, he was. He was open enough to meet
with us and you know, um, you know, suffer through
my questions and uh so yeah he was. He was
a nice guy. And he didn't mean he didn't seem
(11:30):
like like a magician or like any kind of I mean,
I wouldn't have noticed him like walking down the street.
He didn't like stand out and he just seemed like
typical old old money dude. You know. He was he'd
been in the army and he had seen all the
changes of the moon had gone through, like when you know,
slavery was still in effect there and like the sixties
and he saw that the changes and um, you know
(11:52):
how there was like nothing there but at that point
and like in the sixties and even not until the
seventies when Sultonica Booze took her really start to move
from backwater into like uh, you know, first world nation.
So he's seen all that, so it's pretty why is
an interesting guy? So they were when you met him.
(12:13):
And look, I've had I've met some folks who who
claimed to you know, be involved this kind of stuff
and and some of them right off the bat, You're like,
this guy, this person is like it's total connor, Like,
did you get any sense of that or did he
seem like he was really sincere? No. I think he
genuinely believes in what he's doing, and I think he's
(12:35):
he's he claims to have helped over five thousand people
and you know, during his whole tenure as a as
a molem to get rid of Gin and so I mean,
and I've heard lots of stories from other people about him,
So yeah, I mean he seemed like the real deal.
So you travel he lives in Bahlad, right m hm.
And as you traveled to the most haunted place in
(12:56):
the I guess in the Middle East. And how is that?
I mean, did you get a set like what's that
place like? Well, um, it looks like a typical little
sleepy like mountain Hamlet, you know. I mean, it's just
it's in it's in the western the western Hajjar Mountains,
and they're pretty rugged and desolate, and it looks a
(13:20):
lot like Mars. Actually, if she's never been to Aman,
it looks like that's they could film. They could film
Mars there easily or a movie about Mars there, you know. Um,
and it's just a it's just a little town. There's
a stoop and um. You know, it's not nothing really
remarkable about it except that there is a castle there.
And that castle is like kind of the one of
(13:43):
the hot spots for paranormal activity in in Bahala because
they've been trying to restore since like the nineties. And
every time they go in and they do something, then
they come back the next day and it's been undone
and a lot of people say, well, it's the gin,
you know. They don't. They don't like their people coming
in and messing with the place where they're they're haunting.
(14:04):
So that's why it's taken so long for it to
finally open. I think it was open just a couple
of years ago. Finally. I guess the gym like the
ruins ruined. They don't renovation. Yeah, I mean they need
the atmosphere. I guess did you did you spend much
time or do you say the night where you like
trying to like see if you could. Unfortunately you can't
(14:26):
do that. I would have loved to do that with
like a school Scooby doo kind of thing, I know,
to spend the night in the castle I mean or
in bah blad cell I mean either yeah, but the
cattle or not. No, I didn't do that, and I
never spent the night in Blahlabah. I didn wander around
the soup, and the soup has an interesting um. There's
a what my students called the Leading tree. So supposedly
(14:49):
there was there were some people that were someone who's
who was suspected of practicing witchcraft, I think, and that
it was sometimes between the twelve and the six fourteenth
century and anyway, so they executed a few people who
are who are who they've suspected to be witches there
and on this particular tree. And so this this true.
(15:11):
My students told me that if you just touch this tree,
you'll like you'll be cursed and you'll all all these
horrible things will happen to you. And so I had
to go see it, of course, and I had to
touch it. And so I'm still, yes, yes, you know,
I wanted to see something, you know, like that. I've
always had a longing in for, you know, for there
to be something else, you know besides this this. You know,
(15:33):
there's got to be something else out there. We'll be
right back after the short break. When you say that
you have always felt like there's something out there, what
what is like kind of like the framework of your
beliefs is it? Is it kind of like in a
religious sense, or is it kind of like in a
supernatural sense, or is it just like your childhood stories
of stuck with you? What do you think is up there?
(15:55):
I have no idea, you know, really, I just but
I haven't feeling that there means from the things that
I've seen and and other stories and the stories that
I've been told, you know, I'd like to think that
there's some something else out out there, you know, some
kind of power greater than myself, you know that's controlling
and uh controlling, pulling the strings, you know, like in
(16:17):
the in the Puppet Show or something. But uh, but yeah,
what um. When I was in my twenties, I was
really into Carlos Casta Meta and so I read a
lot of his stuff, and I went to Mexico and uh,
you know, followed some of the things that he does
in his books to try to have us to try
to recreate you know, his experiences, um um. And you know,
(16:41):
I've always just been a fan of of those kind
of those kind of stories, you know, because I think
it's some kind of human um longing to for there
to be something else besides this world. And and that's
I think it's really comforting. And any kind of evidence,
even if it's scary or um, you know, even even
(17:03):
if you even if you would not like to have
any kind of face to face encounter with it, it is.
I think it's reassuring to know that there is something else,
you know. I think that's why people look to religion
and they look too, you know, they want to believe
these kind of stories, because it gives them some sense
of comfort that you know that the death is not
(17:24):
the end. It is just you know, a new beginning.
That's interesting. I never actually thought about that. I mean,
I I thought about people's belief in the paranormal in
the sense that, okay, we have to find some way
to explain things that we can't understand. The unknown itself
is scary. But I never thought about it um from
that angle that if we believe in something, even if
(17:45):
it's something evil, something terrifying, something that we don't want
to encounter, it means that we're not. It like, there's
definitely a world greater than us, and there's other things
and that has its own sense of hope attached to it.
That's really interesting. Um okay, So I want to talk
about when when that lady arrived from Boston and you
received her, and what was your impression and uh what happened?
(18:08):
Tell us the story. Yeah, well, um, you know, she
didn't look like she was possessed by Jim. She looked
a little jet lagged, and she was personable, and you know,
she seemed like someone I would you know, I could
connect with her because I think for the same reason
they I mean, for the same for the reason she
(18:31):
was there in Oman. She she flew all the way
just for this and she didn't even stay like she
just came for that. She did. She she went for
Rukia for for the exorcism and then and she was
gone like the next day. So uh so I kind
of I like those kind of people. I like the
kind of people that were you know, they take it
to the they see how far can they can take it,
(18:52):
you know, And um, she seemed like that kind of lady. Um. Yeah,
But so it was me and her and my friend Hemmed.
He was. He was Um, he's a local guy and
he had never he'd heard of Wadam Silent but he
never met him. But he went along as our translator
and so the local who was he was game to
(19:12):
go to the most haunted place in the country. Yeah,
but he's you know how many this kind of a
westernized guys. He's spent a lot of time with ex
pats and Kay, he's not your typical money you know,
he's um. Most of the monies are like really friendly
and you know, really willing to be like you know,
typical like a hospitable kind of people. Uh. But he's
(19:36):
you know, more open minded to you know, these kind
of things. He actually had a few experiences. He had
he had one experience before with the Gin. And you know,
if you if you talked to Um, Yeah, if you
talk to anyone who's uh, who's in Islam or you know, Muslim,
and no, almost everyone believes in jin and they almost
all believe in angels too, But no one, no one
(19:57):
I've met, has ever had an experience at first an
experience with an angel. But almost everyone has some kind
of Gin story. So I don't know what that tells
you yeah, but that's I think that's a very astute
observation and what would you come to think of it?
Although I will say my one of my grandfather's claims
to have had an encounter with angels in Mecca. But
(20:20):
that's like one out of every single Muslim I nose,
so it's very wrong. Wow okay, So so okay, So
you pick her up and you drive and suddenly there's
a storm. Well I've been brewing that day. You know.
It was like at that time of the year, we
get these winds from the north to Chamalia and sometimes
(20:41):
it you know, it collides with the um with the
moisture from the gulf of them on and you know,
we get these big sandstorms. So yeah, I've been brewing
that day and and it was it was a pretty
bad one actually. I mean the visibility was really low
and I was driving my little keep a count don't
I was getting battered around the road on the road
(21:02):
and you know, there's kind of spattered, there's spattering him
rain here and there, and everyone's driving with their lights
on and so it's yeah, I was did anything perfect
like signs to you. I was like, this is like
a movie, man, this is so cool. This is like,
you know, this is like can't pick up. We couldn't
have picked a better day to go to blah bla,
you know, for the atmosphere. So I was like, you know,
(21:24):
I was really I was into us as I was
loving it and I was like eating it up. Yeah.
So then you get to uh Bam Salem's house and
tell me what that was, like, what they what happened. Well,
I wasn't even sure if he was going to be there,
So there was a little tension and there there because
you know, because she she flew come all this way,
(21:45):
and you know, I talked to him like a couple
of days before, but we hadn't reconfirmed. You know, in
the in the Middle East, you always have to like,
you know, okay, you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be
coming over tomorrow, you know, and then you reconfirmed the
day of and like when you're about to leave, you
send a message and then you know you have to
like this has to be a lot of reassurance of
people just assume you're not gonna come. So I didn't
do any of that. I just did kind of like
(22:05):
the Western thing and like, okay, I'll see in two
days and you know, I didn't talk to him again. So, um,
but he's retired, so you know, we're too gonna go.
He's he's there at this house most of the time.
So anyways, we got there and and yeah, so I
introduced it introduced him to this woman from Boston and
my friend hmmed and and the storm was, um, it was.
(22:30):
It was kind of strange because the storm was all
around us at this point, you know, and it was
but I guess we're like in the eye of the
storm or something. And so so yeah, that was that
was a little weird. And there was like this it
was like this kind of electric electricity in the air,
I guess from the I don't know how electricity builds,
but how that works, but there's like these little you know,
(22:52):
like I guess the static electricity or what it is
in the in the clouds. So it was an eerie
kind of atmosphere for you know, a day for an
exorcistem you know. Um. So yeah, um, and didn't what
happened well, um, and then we were we came we
went inside and um, and then the and then the
(23:14):
electricity went off, not immediately, but at some point you know,
when we started the When we started the um, we
were they were going to do the wood, which is
like when you you know, the ritual cleansing of the
hands and feet, you know, because it is you know,
a sacred Islamic ritish and there's a certain protocol to
(23:35):
be fallen. But so um, but we we just he
decided to skip that because um, because the electricity went out,
and you know, there was so yeah, I guess the
electricity went off because of the storm, you know, And
so he lit a candle and then there was like this.
(23:55):
When he lit the candle, it was like this strange
shadow across the wall. I don't know if it was
from the candle or and it's like the smell of
sulfur that it could have been from the matches. I
don't know, but at all it was like it was
really weird. And then what did the shadow look like?
What was what was the shape the shadow? It was
just like I don't know, if you've ever been up
(24:15):
for a few days in a row and you start
to see this, it's kind of it was like that
it was like one of these shadows that you catch
like in the in the corner of your out of
the corner of your eye, and you're not sure if
you really saw it or not, but it's enough to
make to give you the creeps, you know, give you
a you know question, were you the only one to
see it? Or did anybody see it? Now? We all
(24:36):
kind of we all like turned our heads and like, okay,
what the hell was that? You know? So yeah, um,
so the lights flickering and then uh, maybe it was
maybe it was some kind of I don't I don't
know what the sound was, but it was like it
was like a strange kind of a whispering sound at
the same time the shadow appeared. And then and then
(24:58):
at that point that at that point, um, while I'm
Stylom started to surrect to recite apart from the last
two chapters of the Koran, which were all about, you know,
what to do in these kind of situations when someone
is possessed by a gent so he started to recite that,
and um, yeah, so that was what's going on with
(25:22):
the woman who's possessed. So she like lying on the floor.
She I mean, we exercist. I'm assuming it wasn't that extreme. No,
she didn't float, unfortunately, but but that was at that
point I wouldn't have you know, I wouldn't have been surprised,
So uh yeah, she she lied back down on she
she lied on the in the middle of the room,
(25:42):
down on the middle of the room. And then and
she and he was like reciting the Koran over her,
and then her looked like that her eyes rolled rolled
back into her head and she you could see like
the whites of her eyes only, and and she let
out to smoan. It was like some kind of like
I don't know, like a primal scream or something. And
(26:05):
it was weird. It was like definitely nothing I've ever
experienced before. You know, did you feel scared in the moment?
It was like it was so strange that I was
I felt like frozen, kind of like I don't know
if I mean, it was it was so weird. I
was like it was so um like captivating, but the
(26:26):
captivating it was kind of like like watching a train wreck.
You know, you can't pull away, you can't pull your
eyes away, So uh yeah, it was. It was. It
was Mondo bizarre for sure. And but did you get
me answer, did you get the sense that what was
happening in front of you was like real? That's the thing.
(26:48):
I think that's that's what made me not want to
look not want to look away, because I wanted to
see like, Okay, this is this like actually happening. And
it was like because you know, as he was reciting this, this,
as they was reciting the Koran this, uh yeah, she
started to make this the sound and and the you know,
the whites of her eyes and the storm and it
(27:10):
was it was it was intense, you know, it was
like it was really it was heavy. So um so yeah,
I mean I was just I just saw what I saw,
and I don't I don't know if it was that's
really what what happened, you know, if it was you know,
the gin was actually leaving her body, but it seemed
to me that that's like I think that's what was happening.
(27:32):
I mean, I can't there's no way I could like
confirm scientifically, you know, like this is true what happening,
And it was just my experience and what I saw.
But but that's also that's also I'm assuming what um
the exorcist said was happening. And she reported that she
felt was happening too, that this thing was leaving her body. Yeah. Afterwards,
(27:55):
she said that she felt like a sense of you know,
lightness like she I mean, she was and disoriented at first,
and um, she doesn't remember the point when we were like,
you know, holding her down because she started convulsing, you know,
after this primal scream came out, came out of her
and before she settled down. And at one point I
(28:17):
remember that a few years ago. So I'm just trying
to uh, the molem had some holy water and he
like splashed her with it, and you know, um so
um so she began and you guys had to hold
like physically like me and Hammed had to hold her
(28:38):
her arms down. So she she's like started to like
thrash about. And I guess this is at this point
when the you know, the gin was leaving her body
or whatever it was. You know, maybe it was maybe
it wasn't a gym. Maybe it was like her repressed
traumatic memories or I don't know, um, who knows what
(28:59):
what the gin really is, you know, And maybe it
was just like a way for the people and a
long time ago to try to explain this kind of
like epilepsy or like these other kind of the childhood
traumas or something you know, like post traumatic stress disorder.
I don't know, I don't know what it was, but
uh something, but something was happening for sure. So how
(29:22):
long did this exorcism like take place. It wasn't that long. Actually,
it was like maybe ten and fifteen minutes. I mean
once it's once I get started. Yeah, it's pretty quick.
I mean it's quick work to extract a gin from somebody,
it seems like given what we've seen like in the
movies and film and stuff. But and how how was
she afterwards? Yeah, she seemed like she seemed really happy that.
(29:47):
I mean, she was kind of just warranted at first.
And um, she really wanted a cigarette afterwards because it was,
like I AM, pretty intensive experience for her, I guess,
but she she felt like I think she felt that
she was it was worth her while to come all
that way to him on to you, to do the
research to find me and to go visit this guy.
(30:08):
And and I'm assuming he charges for his services, right,
Like how does he make a living? Yeah? Yeah, he does, Um,
and that's up that's just up to the client. I
mean I think she gave him like a hundred dollars
or something like that. Whatever the client wants to give. Yeah,
just like she didn't. He didn't have like at price
(30:28):
price list on the door, and so yeah, yeah, so, um,
your story ends, Your story about her ends kind of
mysteriously because it seems like later on she feels like,
actually she is still possessed. Yeah. Um, so you guys,
(30:49):
basically after she left, you stayed in touch. No, we didn't,
not for a long time, and then just just a
couple of I guess it was just last year. I
started to think about the experience and thought, you know,
that was that's kind of a crazy story. You know
why I should I should write that up. And so
I contact her again just to check up, you know it, saying, hey,
you know how to go with you did? Did your
(31:09):
visit to Aman? Did it really help you? And she
told me that it did for a while, you know
it did. It definitely brought her some kind of peace.
But she had to go on and do some further research,
and she ended up going to Indonesia because there's a
lot of possessions in Indonesia and there's lots of people
who do the rukia there and she had to really
(31:33):
she told me a really crazy story about you know
that involved blood and maggots and um, and there was
some kind of nefarious like, um, not everybody in Indonesia
who does these exorcisms is on the level, so there's
some some nefarious things going on. And I think she
(31:54):
encountered one of those, if I remember correctly, she encountered
one of those guys. She was uh, basically kind of
doing like a parlor trick to to satisfy his clients.
And you know with the kind of like what they did.
And I can't remember when it was popular, but at
one point in the United States, these seances, the contacting
(32:15):
the dead was like a really popular fun thing to
do at parties, you know, and they would bring in
these mediums and there's a lot of people like that
and it used to do this, but you know, in
the Islamic world, um, not just for fun, but you know,
for profit and for because people would like so fervently
believe and you know that they're possessed by these gend
they're willing to go to any length. And then if
(32:37):
they get these dramatic results and you know there's blood
and maggots and weird things happening like you see in
the in the horror films that they have a huge
horror film industry in Indonesia by the way. But anyway,
so if you so, if you see these kind of
things and you feel like you're getting your money's worth
and you know, and it creates more business for the guy.
So UM, So that happened to her and then and
(32:57):
then I think she finally did find someone who's legitimate.
And I haven't heard from her since and that was
that was that was last year, the last time I
heard from her. Um. But she also I think she
later she went to Malaysia because there's a big um
because Malaysians Muslim country, and so there's lots of people
who are possessed there. And then there's the whole Malaysians
(33:20):
uh slant on how exorcisms are done, and you know
what that entails. And so I think there's so much,
there's so much I don't know about it. You know.
What I experienced was just like a little you know,
like a little snapshot of like a much bigger picture
of if you you know, if you're looking into paranormal
phenomenon in Islamic world, I'm guessing. Um, every kind of
(33:44):
culture has its own like you know, angle to the
exorcisms that like resonates with with the locals and makes
sense given like the context and stuff. And that's also
something that I thought it would be kind of formulated
and that makes sense. It's really interesting. So for you, um,
what have you thought about like and one other things?
(34:08):
I mean, that's this is not the only stuff you've
write about. You write about like you your work is
like about a lot of different like cultural aspects of
that region. But it's something that you've thought about pursuing
more in depth, Like is it something you still think
about or you're just like, wow, that was interesting and
I'm I'm done. It's it is what it is. No,
I mean, I would love to go to Indonesia to
(34:30):
look more into like what's happening there, because I think
that's a really interesting situation there because of the mix
of beliefs there. You know, they have before before Islam came,
there was I mean there was Hinduism, and before Hinduism
they had the Japanese had their own animistic beliefs and
those beliefs mixed with the Hinduism, and then they brought
(34:51):
some of those beliefs with them into Islam. And so
like this really interesting mix of beliefs and they all
seem to to co exist fairly peacefully, you know, like
when there was a riot or something going on. But
I just they think the mix of that would be
really interesting to see and I would like to go
visit some of these Charlottean's, you know, to see just
(35:11):
try to sort out who's real and who's not, you
know what anything that would be and I mean the
fascinating peace to to go, especially with someone who was like,
you know, truly felt like they were actually affective and
had it were possessed by Jen, you know, to that
would I think that would be a pretty moving peace.
Have you are you do you still living them on? No,
I'm in the UI, you know, but I mean I
(35:33):
mean Czech Czech Republic for the summer, but and living
in the U A un okay, something similar there? Or
is it? Is it kind of a different culture much
more like kind of progressive there? Well, um, it's not
famous for having you know, the there's no ba in
the UI e but um there there is um some
(35:56):
degree of you know, the same beliefs there because it
is and it's you know, Muslim country and so um
you know, occasionally it comes up when I'm with my students.
You know, we talked about these these kind of things
come up, and uh, sometimes we'll talk about gin and
angels and you know, these these different beliefs and so
the people but they're believing them too, you know. So
(36:18):
and most of my students have some kind of story
that involves the gin. So uh. And then you know
the first person that the woman from Boston that I helped,
she went, she went to go see was actually in charge.
So there's there are people who do exercistems there too. Mhm. Well,
I I mean I don't know if I'd be able to,
(36:39):
but I'd love to speak to this lady. And given
especially the fact that she's kind of traveled the world
and I mean took I mean that's you know, I
mean like that's something that you're taking very seriously if
you're gonna be that committed to addressing this issue. Um,
so maybe that's a possibility. But um, what are your
(36:59):
kind of like plans going forward? You have any other
anything in the pipeline? And where do you write because
I'd love for our listeners to check out your pieces. Yeah,
most of my stuff you can find on the Matador Network.
Just google Baxter Jacks to Matador. The list should pop
up of most of my pieces that have been for
them over the years. I'm assuming you're open to other
(37:21):
people reaching out with their GIN stories. Yeah, I would
love to hear them for sure. That I mean, I'm
fascinated by the supernatural and people have had firsthand experiences
like that. So yeah, well, I'd love it if you
ever returned to Oman and did like a ghost Hunter's
type of episode in Bahalla. That would be a lot
of take some video. Yeah, but I would love to
(37:45):
do that. It would be cool the Ghostbusters the Oman
edition exactly. Well, thank you so much. This has been
really interesting and I guess I just want to end
with one final kind of question to you, although I
feel like you've answered it in different ways, um, and
that is this after everything kind of you you've lived
in the region what thirteen years now, um, and everything
(38:06):
you've have experienced firsthand and stories you've heard, like where
do you got to fall on the spectrum of like
do you believe jin exists? I don't know, UM, I
mean I know what I saw, I know what other
people have experienced. UM. I like to believe I guess.
I guess you could say that I'm sort of still agnostic.
(38:29):
I don't. I don't know for sure, but you don't
know that they don't. You don't know that they don't. Right,
that's right, what about you and your Muslin? Right? I am? Yeah,
I well, you know, it's one of those things where
it's like the way I think about it was like
like if I if I am a person of faith,
(38:50):
like pretty much of any faith, and I have some
belief in something supernatural, this is how religion is, and
so then how do you draw a line where I
believe this? But that's going too far? Right? Like so
to me, I, like you said, if you believe in
angels and you believe in God and you believe in Satan,
then like why are Jim's way too fantastical? Like that's
(39:10):
so that the realm of But yeah, let's right, let's
not go too far. Um, so it's not too far
from me. I do absolutely believe there are phenomen that
we don't understand, we might not ever understand. I don't
think everything that people experience they think is jin is
always jin. I think there are often times and I've
seen this myself in my own life where people have
(39:33):
let's say, deep mental health issues or they are trauma.
There's so many other things that happened that we might
interpret that way or it's just easier to deal with
that way. Maybe. But having said that, I mean when
I hang out in the castle and at night, probably not.
(39:53):
I'm not trying to court. I don't want to bring
them home. And honestly, to be honest, Baxtor, And in
this interview series, the very first episode I hope you
get a chance to listen to it will be with
my husband talking about like our personal experience and so
I have had some experiences that I'm like, I what
else could it be? Like a GIN or something anyhow,
(40:17):
But anyway, thank you again. I really appreciate your time,
and I'm going to continue to follow your work and
I help you get to Indonesia and uh and fill
us all in And you know I would totally read
that and watch that. Okay, Hey, thanks, thanks a lot
for for this interview. I hope you enjoyed that conversation
(40:38):
as much as I did. Now, there are as many
people in the world with GIN stories as there are GIN,
So if you have one you'd like to share, make
sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin
at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H
E H I D D E N d J I
n n at gmail dot com. And until next time,
(41:00):
remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah
Chaudrey and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
(41:24):
executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our
theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts
from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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