Ep. 163: THC Marriage Counseling, a New Theme Song, and the California Bear Ban Saga with Clay Newcomb

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
I guess I grew up on an all day Everybody, welcome,
It's another episode Hunting Collective. I am Benjamin Patrick O'Brien
the first I'm joined by Philip t Engineers. Say hello, Philip,
that was inappropriate and and I'll called for what was

(00:34):
that horrifying yelp at the beginning of the episode. That
was a barbaric yelp? I have you know, Okay, I'll
have you know. I'm excited for episode one six three.
We have spent the last couple of weeks, I would say,
getting into some heavy topics phil gun rights, gun ownership,

(00:55):
cultural division, all types of things that had is informed
and entertained some folks and and and other folks not
so much. But we trudge forward now this week. I
think we are bringing a lot of that to ahead.
I just got finished talking with Clay Nucom on our
very first official guard the Gate segment of this show.

(01:18):
We talked for over an hour about Senate Bill two
fifty two in the California legislature to ban black bear
hunting forever. I guess we'll just call it forever. Um.
So I think this is really kind of the culmination
a lot of things we've been talking about over the
last couple of weeks and our really the last couple

(01:39):
of years on this show. So I'm excited for you
to hear what we uncovered and talked through with the Clay.
We got a lot of other things happened in the
thhd UH cult universe whatever world, however we want to
talk about it. Um, So let's just get rolling, Phil.
We have we've we've helped rebuild a marriage. So do

(02:01):
you want to hear about the story about how th
HC helped rebuild a marriage? I mean, I can't say
no to that. Nobody gay. That's this was Jesse g
Right wrote in and that was her subject line, th
HC helping rebuild marriages. Wow, this is let's say, let's
see how this competes with with the dumper story about
how th HC is changing lives right? And you know me,

(02:23):
this is just a little like it's like a little
shine on my ego. I feel like I'm changing the world.
And then I'll read your email in the air. That's
how it works. Um. She says, thanks for putting out
the show that we do. She's a model of a
three year old, twin daughters and so she says, so
any any alone time is usually valuable and she listens
to th HC. So, so thanks for doing that, Jesse

(02:45):
and and twin three year olds? Phil, how do you?
How do you feel about twin three year olds? Oh?
My gosh, I mean, I mean, yeah, that's that's a
that's a load, that is a workload. That's like one
of the that's one of the things that that always
horrified me. And between our first and second kid, having
another kid, the thought of it being twins or triplets,

(03:06):
something completely unexpected that rocks your world for years. Uh yeah,
So my, my, my, my thoughts, my thoughts are with
you and and you're a hero, jesse G. Thank you. Um,
I really feel like I'm gonna stop saying people's last
names because we read so many, like so many emails
that have personal implications. I just want to put that
out there into the universe that I understand that now,

(03:28):
and I am going to just give you the last
initial of people's names. Protect the innocent, all right, She said,
This is all good, though, She said she has a
thank you for providing such a wonderful jumping off point
for my husband and I to listen together. To the
th HC and for essentially giving us something to find
to do together, start going hunting and lessening our distance

(03:49):
from where our food comes from. Now onto the indirect
marriage counseling that you've offered. My husband is a Special
Forces medic and due to the nature of his job,
his personality is not exactly the most comfort ning and
emotionally warm and fuzzy. That's just like phil. The nature
of his job makes him just an emotionally void son
of a bee. Uh. It keeps himself, it keeps him

(04:10):
safe in the times he's overseas, but it makes it
him very challenging to try to find common ground in
a marriage as well as just find something to do
as a couple and as a family. His family never hunted,
but they often hiked and camped, and he continues to
love things like that to this day. In contrast, my
dad is military and he hunted to get alone time

(04:31):
for the demands of job and family as it was
his thing. And I was the typical teenage girl. I
never got involved in the honey adventures. But he brought
my husband and I each a bow for a wedding gift.
That's a badass. Wedding gift. Okay, yeah, wow, Jesse, your
dad is a badass. A couple of bows for your
wedding gifts. We should do more of that in this culture. Anyway,

(04:52):
he bought those wedding gifts with hopes that we would
just use them together, meaning as husband and wife. I
end up being fairly good good with it, and my
husband is never wanted to let someone be better than him,
so it encouraged us to practice. All Right, we're getting
to we're delving deep into this marriage, Phil, deep into
this marriage. Yeah, it's very We've we've hit some revealing blocks,

(05:14):
so yeah, let's keep going. Then we got pregnant with
twins right right before deployment, after years of trying and
the trials of infertility. Then move twice, and I hadn't
picked up a bow in years until I started listening
to your podcast. The Special Forces divorce rate is somewhere
between seventy five to that's worth repeating. The Special Forces

(05:34):
divorce rate is somewhere around seventy depending on who you ask.
With a very high deployment tempo and skyrocking tb I,
PTSD and substance abuse rates, it's not very hard to
see why, but the solutions are harder to figure out
special forces couples need time together, but finding something that
both parts of the marriage and joys a real challenge.

(05:55):
I once asked my husband to attend a cooking class,
and while he did great, it was definitely not something
that we repeat it. Hunting, learning about hunting, and just
the acts of target practice have been the perfect antidote
to these challenges. As can be expected, he's much better
with firearms than I am, and so we get the
chance to teach each other and learn from each other.

(06:17):
They're listening to your podcast and a lot of backyard
archery practice during naptime. This is the most relatable story,
a lot of it, not all of it, but the
kid part is related listening to a lot of backyard
archery practice during naptime after the twins go to sleep.
I do that all the time. We've been actually been
able to find some common ground and an activity that

(06:37):
we both enjoy doing together while challenging one another to
get better and better. We've even started getting our hunting
licenses with the hope that we can eventually lessen our
dependence on the grocery store and shorten the path from
our food to our dining room table. It's it's almost
a race to see who can do it first. But
the this is a competitive couple film. Uh and I

(06:58):
dig it. I dig that it's healthy for them. It's
almost very so you can do it first with the
understanding that the time spent together and learning something new
is what is at the foundation. We now also have
something to keep us connected during these frequent trips, listening
to the media podcasts and learning more and more about
how to become ethical hunters and passionate controvationists and hopefully

(07:18):
top chefs of lab game. We even have plans to
renew our vows this year, just to signify how much
of a turning point this has been for our marriage
and the new direction and more solid foundation this has
created for our family. I'll wrap it up so so
that this doesn't just ramble on and on, but I
just want to say thank you for probably such a
meaningful content that can span all ideologies, and for putting

(07:40):
in the work that you do. She said, I'm sure
that as of the last two episodes, you're dealing with
a quagmire of stupidity, So I hope that this serves
as some encouragement. Chess g fill the engineer take first
crack at a reaction. I mean, that's that's great, that's fantastic. Uh,
you know, that's It's funny because like the last few months,

(08:03):
I've been trying, like, especially with COVID and spending more
time in the house and everything, Like, my wife and
I have been trying to find like things we can
do together, and it's like always kind of just like,
let's try this board game. Let's try to like because
I mean we we we both already do a lot
of cooking, so but like just something like an activity
we can do together, just to like that that we're

(08:25):
both enjoying equally. Uh. It's sometimes that can be that
can be tough to find with especially with with two
kids running around and finding a time for it, the
patience for it. Uh So I mean, hey, more more
power to you. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming we're in
the trust tree here, we're in the nest since there
a lot of people hate me for being a dirty lib. Uh,

(08:45):
but my wife and I go to marriage counseling. Do
you guys go to marriage counseling? Yeah, we have not
not yet. Okay, Well, if you never need you. I
got a good guy's name is Doug. He's awesome. He
wears the perfect type of sweaters. I don't know if he.
I think he might be listening to the podcast at
this point, so he might hear the shout out yeah
maybe dougal sponsor maybe we'll start reading. As for Doug marriage,
But like Doug and my wife and I were talking

(09:07):
last Thursday about this exact thing, man that if you
have kids, it's it's you know, working from home. Life
is changing, it's unpredictable. What do you do together? Man?
It's game night and and now I read this email
from Jesse g and it all comes together for me.
So I'm very happy for this wonderful couple. Maybe Phil
and I can be there virtually when you renew your vows.

(09:31):
Will you commit to that, Phil, uh? For for their sake? No,
I will not commit to it. I say just to suggestion, Jesse,
if you want to, like rent a big TV and Phil,
Phil and I can be there split screen. I'll even
like become ordained if I need to. I don't know
if that if there's any official thing that needs to
happen with wedding, with renewing of specific wedding veils. But

(09:51):
Phil is even just volunteered just now to read some
of your wedding veils for you. Um I, miss I
missed that part of the podcastah know, as his ammitment
to your relationship because now we're also invested in in
your future together. Um So, I'm this makes me incredibly happy.
And um boy's really a personal touch there, Jesse. When

(10:12):
I read that, I thought, Oh, somebody's going through what
I'm going through, trying to keep your marriage together in
the time of crisis. Uh So, Phil, thanks for thanks
for volunteering. I really appreciate you supporting the listeners like
you always do. Oh you know me. Um. I got
another email from Jonathan B. He said, fine. He said
the in title of this thing was fine hunting fascinating,

(10:35):
but don't want to hunt. I don't know. This is
interesting to me, so I'm gonna read it to you,
he said. Uh. I love the podcast. I'm passionate about conservation, wildlife,
in our relationship with nature, and this show fuels all
those interests of mine. However, while I find hunting fascinating,
I honestly have no desire to go out in the
field for myself. I'm an active angler and I keep

(10:56):
some of my catch, but that's as far as I
really care to go with personally harvesting life. For me,
I probably donate. And I am a member of b
h A. I eat venison and duck um that my
family harvest. I'm saving to purchase some land where I
can allow hunters to visit and fish if I can
find the property with a body of water. I respect

(11:17):
the hell out of hunters and enjoy living verycariously through
you all. I know this is the year of the
new hunter. Best to luck to fill, but I wanted
to give a shout out to the other folks like myself.
Um and he asked for permission. Phil, do you give
Jonathan b permission to join the cult if he's solely
an angler? Uh? Am, I have a person who has

(11:39):
the power to do that. Yeah, you're the membership coordinator.
Oh great? Uh does that come with a raise? No? Okay,
then yes, yes, you can join the cult as a
person who does as a person who doesn't hunt themselves.
And I guess I'm a membership coordinator. I mean anyone
can join it. I guess you're benevolent. You're benevolent in

(11:59):
your hours. No, I mean I was reading this, I
was thinking, is this fills alter ego? Is he is
this feels way of telling me? I mean, is I
this is very relatable? Yeah, so let's break this down.
Feel is this where you're at? You're like, hey, listen,
been you're forcing am I forcing you to hunt? Before
we get into this Turkey hunting planning? Uh? In earnest
because I've got to get some dates. I think early
May is where we're looking at right now. But this

(12:22):
isn't you? Is it? Like you don't want to just
like hang out with us and not take part. Right No,
I'm going to take part. I've told you I'm willing
to try anything. But like I it's it's it's relatable
because like I've been, I've been pretty much. I've been
up front. I've been up front with aer call. My
number is not high. Maybe it will be after I

(12:43):
try it, but but yeah, I'm not like, like like, especially
after being here for a while now, like I see
the positive impacts that hunting, uh, you know has in
in in multitudes, but what whether it's the environment or
or otherwise. I I just like, I'm not I'm not
compelled to go out there and do it myself. Yet Okay,

(13:04):
well listen. Just like last week, we welcome hate listeners.
We welcome not that this is directly comparable. We're welcome
non hunters as well to listen and enjoy whatever it
is you take from this little program. Please please do
all are welcome here. Um. So it's good to it's
good to know that guys like Jonathan b you're out
there and and really Jesse g as well. So. Um,

(13:28):
but we got we got a lot of stuff going
on in our world. So, Phil, I've talked to Kayla Ray.
If you don't remember Kayla, she his I would say,
like relatively unknown or little known singer of great talent.
She sang, um, what was poetry to my years? White
claw wasted? Or can't judge a white claw man by

(13:52):
the side of his can and really, uh took a
space in my heart with that with that song, And
so I was inspired to have her do a song
for this show. Now, how long has it been, Phil?
Did you have you been here? The entire time you've
been here? We've had the same theme song, same introductory
song since you've been here, right, Yep, that's true. So

(14:14):
everybody's heard that enough, it's time to change. And I
know when we switched to the current song, we got
a lot of feedback from people who are both very
upset and very happy. So this song means something to
all you out there. And we also heard that our
current song, Old number seven, went up in the charts

(14:34):
a little bit after we first launched it. And also
it's sales went up. We heard from uh some folks
in the know and that it's sales and iTunes went up.
So hopefully we can help Kayla ray Uh get what
she deserves because she's talented as possibly could be. Um, So, Phil,
we're gonna do it. Man, We're gonna do well you
suggested last week. And so here's what I need everybody

(14:57):
to do. T C. It's meeting our co as the email.
And I'm not gonna We're not gonna give you any
tangible prizes here, Okay, we don't. We were handing out
all kinds of things all the time in terms of prizes.
We're not gonna give you any tangible prizes. But here's
what you're gonna get. You're gonna get on every episode,
we're gonna shout out Kayla we're gonna shout out whoever

(15:18):
turns in the best written version with the lyrics of
this song. Don't don't send us audio. For God's sakes,
do not send us audio of you singing it. That
is banned right away. That's that's for Kayla only. Yeah,
Kayla sings you do not. Don't you dare? I'm thinking
about a few of you. Don't you dare send me

(15:39):
some audio of you're trying to sing this. Just write
it out, Okay, um t a C at media dot Com.
We're gonna give you. We're gonna go a couple of
weeks here, and you're gonna be immortalized in the history
of this podcast. At the end of every episode, we're
gonna thank you and thank Kayla for giving us the
theme song. So that's your prize, really great standing within

(16:02):
the cult um. This person will be forever immortalized on
the Mount Rushmore of THHC. So, UM, I want you
to write, this is gonna be a thirty to forty
five second little song in the beginning, and then there's
gonna be a thirty to forty five second bit at
the end. So you just write whatever comes to your heart.

(16:24):
It's gotta be poetic. It's got to be meaningful. It's
got to define this show. Every new listener that listens
for the first time is gonna hear this song and
they're gonna have to understand what this show is all
about via these words that you will write an email
to me and Phil, So no pressure, Phil. Do you
want to encourage everyone? Um born everyone? Is there anything

(16:45):
that you want to say to everyone in regards to
writing a song about this podcast? Not not at all.
I've I've been I've been witnessed to too much talent,
just honestly wasted talent. Find something better to do with
your with with all this, all these skills you have, um,
but I have no doubt that we're gonna get a
lot of great entries, and it's gonna be hard to

(17:06):
It's gonna be hard to choose. It's true, I have
no doubt. Um. You know, feel free to suggest songs
or melodies that go with your tune, but again, do
not sing him. Don't send me voicemails if you singing,
because I can't there's no way I can listen to this. Many,
as you know, will come in ah in this way.

(17:26):
So you feel free to suggest to kayla ay a
musical accompaniment that might inspire her. But you don't need
to do that. We just need your words and again
we will immortalize you in THHD history as the writer
of the new theme song. And who knows we make
it this on iTunes that might vault to number one
in the charts. If you guys don't know hunting celebrity

(17:48):
legend in the game, my friend Jim Shocky, he's a songwriter.
He writes songs. His his song was like number two
or three on the on the iTunes charts at some
point here recently. Um so, this could be Kaylory and
your chance out there to be actually have written a
song that's on iTunes that people actually listen to. Um So,

(18:09):
I'm excited. Phil, Are you you excited? Do you have
any handicaps? You think Eric All might win this? Well?
All this talk about iTunes and charts and uh like
writing credits, I feel like we need we need to
talk to a lawyer. This this sounds this sounds too
official for me. Quiet Phil, Quiet, Okay, sorry, it's not
official at all. Nothing we do here is official. And

(18:32):
if you're if you're out there and you're a lawyer
listening in. Maybe don't write the song. Maybe write it's
a legal document. We can have a person who writes
a song sign uh. So, crowdsource the whole damn thing,
every part about it. So that's that's what we're doing
over the next couple of weeks. I hope to have
dozens or hundreds of submissions for this. This is incredibly

(18:54):
important to this show and to me, Um, and so
I am counting on all of you two, I guess,
I mean, so weos they make it rain on the
th HD inbox with all your poetic and writing skills.
Don't forget Barry Gilbert, don't forget fill the Engineer, don't
forget teaching Game of Thrones to Stephen Ronella. Don't forget Yetie,

(19:17):
don't forget I just don't forget anything. Make it detailed. Okay.
Now we got a big thing to do here. Um,
we gotta get into Senate Bill to fifty two. As
you mentioned earlier, with our buddy Clay NUKEM Clay Nukes
gonna help us guard the gate. We're gonna learn all
about this bill, and then when we're done, we're gonna
really get into what th HC intends to do to

(19:40):
help hunters of California continue to be able to hunt, eat,
and enjoy the hides of black bears, enjoy Clay newcom
Hello sir, Hello Ben O'Brien. How goes it today in Arkansas?

(20:05):
It's a beautiful day here in Arkansas. It's sunshining. Everything
is everything's going pretty good. Well, you're we you know,
last time we talked, we talked about having a segment
and we're called Guard the Gate. And I was waiting
to have something, you know, really with some teeth to
talk about in terms of of guarding the Gate. And

(20:26):
boy did we get it, man. I mean, this is
what we're about to talk about. Is is probably the
best example of of what you've come on this show
particularly and talked about over the last year or two
at least. Um California wants to bambar hunt. Yeah, yeah,
this is we We built this segment for such a

(20:49):
time as this, as they say, yeah, like having a
button push this for emergencies, and we just bring Clay
Nukem on and we saw it. There we go. I
wish I wish it was that easy. I me too. Well,
I mean, I know you have been thrown into as
I I kind of researching a bill that's been introduced

(21:09):
in the California legislator legislature, s B two five two,
a particularly introduced by Senator Wiener, and the co author
was I'm not even gonna say this right boring or
hor bath m hm um. And this is this is
the impetus for what we're talking about. And I will say,

(21:31):
like California wants to ban That's how I just phrase
that California wants to BAMBI Honey, that's not true, um,
but Senator Wiener definitely does. Yeah. So that's what we're
dealing with Senate Bill number two five two in the
California Legislature right now. So this bill was introduced on January,

(21:55):
and Ben, I don't know exactly what direction we and
go because there's so many directions. But you know, this
bill is so different than much of what we've seen
seriously considered in states for several reasons. But the primary
and simple reason that I think people can take home

(22:16):
if they just hear one thing is that this bill
has zero science, zero data backing it. There there's not
you know, sometimes you get a bill that comes before
the government agency and perhaps there is a hint of
a hint of benefit to it per the science, or

(22:39):
per the finances, or you know, there's there's this like
small caveat that like, well, yeah, if we really value
that over all this other stuff, we might lean towards this. Well,
this appears to be well there there is just no
data whatsoever by the California Game officials that that that

(23:02):
speak to this being beneficial to bears in any way.
And that clearly means that this is an emotional appeal
to a base of people, that this is an easy
sell to and it just sounds good. Like so that's
the one you know, I heard our I've heard it

(23:24):
said by Robbie it Blood Origins, who did a good
job summarizing this bill. But he said, this is the
silver lining for us as wildlife conservationists hunters, is that
this thing's got no teeth other than it's an easy
sell because it just sounds good. Banning trophy hunting bears

(23:45):
in California. I mean, that's all that they're saying. And
uh so, but there in lies the problem with with
all this kind of stuff is for people to get
on the same page as us. There's a lot of
steps of in formation, knowledge, understanding of intent of the
human behind this that has to be taken before somebody

(24:07):
can come to a place and go, Okay, I get it.
Now see what we need a bear season where for
them it's just one thing. Hey, did you know you
can trophy hunt bears in our beautiful state of California.
I want to stop that because I want to protect bears.
That cell is a one step sell. Our cell is
like a five step cell, you know, at the very

(24:30):
least maybe more. Yeah, and that's what makes it very difficult. Um.
But Ben, that's the that's just kind of a it's
just kind of entry point for us. Yeah. I think
that it's good to talk about because I was talking
to Sam Longer, who actually wrote a piece for for
Meat Eater uh dot com. New legislation could band bear

(24:51):
hunting in California forever. And we were talking about this
and he said, are we doing you know? He said,
stuff like this is going to continue to happen? You know,
are we doing something wrong with our messaging? Like? What
are we doing? What can we be doing better to
help California? And I said, exactly, I said to him,
exactly what you just said to me. Listen, man, we
are fighting against and this is true with a lot

(25:12):
of things. That's true with with specifically in my case,
I believe with a R fifteen bands and things like that,
that that you can make up names. You know, Bear
Protection Act sp SP two fifty two is called the
Bear Protection Act. That's the name of it. And as
you as you read the press release from Senator Wiener,

(25:33):
he's out of San Francisco. He says, over the past
few years, black bears that face unprecedented habit habitat loss
due to climate change and wildfires and continued sport hunting
in California makes survival and even tougher climb. It's time
we stop this inhumane practice once and for all. He
has connected climate change in wildfires, which are political topics

(25:55):
to Jore too, sport hunting of bears, like that's that's
a smart political move to say, you know what threatens
these bears. These two things we know are bad climate
changing wildfires. Oh and by the bye, sport hunting as well.
And we've seen that in other places in other states
in the In the science behind that ben is that

(26:17):
in the nineteen eighties, the bear population was said to
be in California, State of California between ten and fifteen
thousand animals. And we're talking about black bears to day
in California, and bear numbers are hard to just pin down,
you know that. It's it's it takes years to study
population dynamics, and so these state agencies when animals are thriving,

(26:39):
they don't spend a ton of money on studying. I'm
necessarily because they're doing so good, you know, they're they're
putting their research funds towards other stuff. But so I
don't know exactly when the last statewide population study was
on bears, but they say today in despite all the
environmental chaos, habitat whatever, there are between thirty and forty

(27:04):
thousand bears in the state of California. I mean bear
it is. It is absolute falsehood to say that bears
are are are under any kind of stress even I
mean it's like there now, I'm not saying there's not
lots of habitat loss in California. That's that's I mean,

(27:27):
the human population is expanding so rapidly, for sure, but
it doesn't seem to bother the old Ursus americanas man.
I mean, they'll live in your backyard, and uh so
they're in lies. Our position too, is that these animals
are thriving and they've thrived underneath a regiment of managed

(27:52):
hunting in the state. So it's it's a really hard
if people had those facts, it would just be like,
so tell me again, will you proved to me that
bears are are struggling and are having a hard time surviving.
I mean, it's just bizarre. Yeah, yeah, to to start
a bill like this, especially the public push to get

(28:12):
people on on board with this bill because this we're
in a very key time in the month of February
before as we're just talking to Brian Lynn from the
Sports's Alliance before we jumped on. He was telling us
that this bill right now has been introduced and it
will be kicked around before he gets into committee sometime
in March, early March, mid March. So there's some time
here where this bill just kind of sits and waits

(28:32):
to get heard and it wants this and this is
the time to really oppose it and understand how to
oppose it. But then you you think of what the
hs US, the Humane Society the United States, is saying.
I mean, they're they're probably the most prominent anti hunting
organization in terms of introducing legislation or supporting legislations on

(28:54):
a state by state basis, which again last time we talked,
we talked about getting behind the Sports's Alliance for just
this reason because they're the ones who were doing the
only groundwork here. We can talk all we want um,
but they're the ones doing the work and hs US
claims and another part of this kind of press push
for this bill that's seventy of Californian's opposed bear hunting

(29:18):
and support banning it. And again, if you if you're
gonna lie to people, you know, you're gonna create a
false uh set of encouragements here and there are just
a set of falsehoods. Then no wonder se of them
opposed bear hunting because they've not been presented with anything

(29:41):
near I'd like to see if that's a true statistic
or is that you know, what's the yeah? What like,
how many people did they ask that, you know, as yeah,
assuming that's true, how did we get there? You know?
And again that's a big part of this is how
do we talk to everyone about hunting and particularly things
like bear hunting, which which seemed to be on the

(30:03):
chopping block for reasons. You know, we've already discussed the
weed that we know, because bears are much easier to like,
and they live a lot of times in our kids bedrooms. Um, so,
so let's let's talk about the bill itself. I read it.
I know you read it. Um, there's a couple of
things in the beginning of the bill. It's strike. It's
it wants to strike section three oh two of the

(30:27):
Phishing Game Code, and and that I'll read that through
three o two and we'll just talk about this part.
When adopting regulations pursue into any authority otherwise vested in
the Commission by this code, the Commission shall annually determine
whether to continue, repeal, or amend regulations establishing hunting seasons
for black bears. The determinations shall include a review of

(30:48):
factors which impact the health and viability of the black
bear population. So that's what's currently in section three or
two of the Fishing Game Code in California, and this
bill wants to repeal that. Literally just crossed it out
and read. Yeah, you know, I think it's important to
even to take a step back ben what they're trying

(31:11):
to do. Like in the way that these these bills
are written is they're they're trying to remove black bears
from the Registrar of Game Animals in the state of California.
And it's it's not it's just semantics, but but it's
still might give some information to people about how these
things work. So basically, there's a list of game animals

(31:33):
in the state. Those game animals are then legal for
the state Game Agency to make hunting season and regulations
about hunting on and they're trying to remove that animal
from as a game animal, which I thought is really ironic,
Ben because like so in Michigan, we're I have a

(31:56):
deep respect for the Michigan Bear Hunters Association. They're a group,
statewide group in Michigan, very well ran good guys, and
in the nineteen fifties. Prior to the nineteen fifties, bears
in Michigan were not game animals, which means they were hunted,
they could they could be they were simply they were

(32:18):
basically unprotected, and the bear hunters came in and actually
fought four of them to become, uh, you know, game animals,
to protect them and under them becoming game mammals, game animals,
their populations thrived, and now Michigan is absolutely full of
bear and the bears are doing great. So point being,

(32:40):
it's all a matter of perspective. He's saying, we got
to take him off this list to protect him. But
the science and the history means that actually when that
animal is on there, it is protected and does better.
So just you know, just kind of interesting angles, you know. Yeah,
that's really the heart of what what this bill is

(33:00):
when you get to read all the way through it,
The heart of it is we're removing this animal from
the list of game species. And again there's history here
with California, but particularly in this case. I find it
ironic as well that when I read the determination show
include a review of factors which impact the health and

(33:20):
viability of the black bear population is crossed out. It's
taken out. Yeah, so they and then and I read
the rest of this bill, there's nothing to replace it here.
There's no I mean, what other agencies in the state
government of California would be reviewing the black bear population

(33:41):
at all? I mean, are there other public health agencies
in this case that might be reviewing it based on
problem bears? Possibly but in this case, the Game and
Fish Agency is taking care of this game animal. They're
looking at the health and viability of the population. And

(34:01):
what this is saying is that that that that ride
is going to be taken away from him. Is that
what you're saying, then, Yes, exactly what I'm saying. You're
you're decoupling these things, right, You're taking away the relationship
between game animal and Game and Phish Department. Yeah. And
that relationship, even in the language in this section three
oh two is concrete, right, you know, it's basically what

(34:28):
what section three or two is saying is that every
year or you know, at at timing dictated by the
Phishing game, they will annually determine whether to continue, repeal,
or amend regulations establishing hunting seasons for black bears. The
determination should include a review of factors which impact the
health and viability of the black bear population. It doesn't

(34:49):
say we're hunting black bears forever, does it. It says
we're going to review this every year and determine the
best course of action based on our North American model
of of conservation. You know what's so wild about it, too,
is that if we had this track record of bumbling

(35:11):
black bears, and it's like, Okay, State agencies, you guys
have been in charge for black bears for the last
fifty years and you've about random into the dirt. You
know what, we're taking it back. We're gonna give the
regulation of these animals to someone else because of such
a bad job you've done. And bears are almost gone.

(35:32):
Like that's one story which is the exact opposite of
what's happened pretty much everywhere. Game agencies, conservation based hunting,
license sales, funding of all this stuff has worked. And Ben,
you've heard me talk about it, You've talked about it.
We all know that black bears are one of the

(35:53):
shining stars of of big game animals in North America
right now that are five in ways to adapt into
new habitat and are expanding their range all over. I mean,
there's not a ton of big game animals that you
can just say, man, now there's you know, they're moving
into North Texas, and they're moving to Oklahoma, and they're

(36:14):
moving into you know, they're just there's all these all
these populations are expanding and so like this isn't a
thing of merit. It's not like you've done a bad job,
so we're taking it away. And that's usually the way
things work in life, if you're a normal human is
do a good job at something you can you get

(36:36):
to continue to do it. And and that's why I've
been like we can be upset and and even angry,
which it does elicit these things inside of me, but
we realize that we're not fighting against logic. We're not
fighting against uh or standing against you know, it's not
like these people if you just sat down, if they

(36:57):
just listen to this podcast, there to be like, oh
we were long, we're we're fighting against something that's a
lot deeper, and it's uh ideological clash, it's uh, it's
a lot of different things and and there in lines
of problems. So it's it's powerful for us as hunters
and conservations to have this information. I think all this

(37:19):
stuff that we're talking about ought to be on the
tongue of of people that care and and maybe not
everybody can you know, maybe all the details aren't as important,
but like it's really powerful to have this information, this understanding,
but still we're dealing with something bigger than this, you know. Yeah,

(37:43):
it's it's so it's also connected to me. It strikes
me as like it's one of the things I'm most
that elicits the most passionate in me about. You know,
in the realm of hunting, is that when you connect
animal rights ideology two, a growing division in this country,
fueled off and by misinformation and media spin and propaganda,

(38:04):
and and that propaganda is often attached to ideologies. And
that's what's happening here. You know that we we might
say we had it. We did a episode with Miles
Nulti a few weeks ago where we talked about media
and division and how that affects US. And here we
are a couple of weeks later, looking at a good
example of it. And and hs US spokesperson Sabrina I'm

(38:31):
gonna get this wrong too, I always do. As Sean Um.
She's the California State director for the h S. She said,
California's deeply value the environment and have shown time and
time again that they don't want to see their iconic
wildlife slaughtered for sport. By passing the Bare Protection Act,

(38:52):
California can cement its position as a leader and protecting
our natural resources and spare thousands of California's majestic and
beloved black bears from a needless and unnecessary death. Wow.
Wow that hurts me, man, Yeah, it really. It feels

(39:15):
like it's not if it is a personal attack, because
what it what it's doing here is using propaganda to
paint hunters as a bunch of trophy hunting egotistical assholes
who don't care about the virtue signaling is strong in there,

(39:36):
setting it up as hunters who don't care about these
iconic species. Virtue signaling. I like that word. I see
where you're going with that. Yeah, it's signaled. It's signaled
where value live. Yeah. I've got three things here, Ben,
and I'm gonna say all three of them, and then
I'd like to make a comment on them. Please this this,
this legislation sets precedence, and that was in her uige.

(40:00):
You know, to be a leader, California set to be
a leader. Um. I also want to comment on the
unneeded death of bears what she said? And then uh um,
and then trophy hunting. Can I make a comment on
all those I wanted to say so I wouldn't get them.
The reason the reason this is so dangerous is because

(40:24):
of what she said, what they see like this is
not normal legislation. We normally don't just make legislation based
upon ideology, especially with legislation that has formerly been instructed
by science and history. And so the problem is is
that if this passes in California, it gives a wide

(40:45):
open door for other places to do the same thing.
And we see it all over politics, is that one
state does something and then all of a sudden, it
opens the door for other states to do the same thing.
That's number one. That's why comment on that too. We
were just talking to Brian Lynn, like I said, from
Sports Alliance, this is the thing that they battle. If
you go back and list to the their appearance on

(41:07):
this show or others, this is the thing that they battle,
precedents setting on the judicial and legal side of this.
I'm not an expert in that, so I won't go
into it. But what happens all the h s US
is trying to do here is set a legal precedent
to argue against in other states. That's a big part
of this, what what they're trying to do. And they

(41:29):
can get it done near San Francisco, California exactly, And
so that the power here is not only in what
happens in California, but the precedence it'll set legally into
the future. And that there's already a bunch of concrete examples.
I don't have them lined up here right right now,
but certainly we'll be talking to the Sports Alliance more
about this as it unfolds in the months to come.

(41:51):
But that's you're you're exactly right, both on the legal
side and the public side. I mean, I think there's
two kind of layers there, and that is exactly why
this matters to all of us. I mean, I may
never bear hunt in California, and I would bet that

(42:14):
of the listeners of this podcast may never bear hunt
in California, but this matters to all of us. It
matters to a pheasant hunter in South Dakota, a squirrel
hunter in Kentucky, a deer hunter in Arkansas. I mean
because it you know, our our world is now so
connected through technology, through media, We're just so massively connected.

(42:40):
No longer can we divide ourselves and continue to stand like.
That's why this is so important. And that's the whole
essence of guard the gate, ben And and is that
guarding the gate means it's not just bear hunters in
California that have to stand up for this. It's not
just bear hunters in the in this country that I

(43:00):
have to stand up for it. But what we're trying
to to build is a is or we're trying to
elicit a responsive help from everybody. And I want to
we can talk later about what that help is UM,
because I want to try to get specific, and I
want to hear your thoughts too, because I've even got
some questions about UM. I mean, here's one thing that

(43:24):
gets gets into this man, like how how crazy is it?
And we we talked about this all the time. We
talked about this with Colorado ballot Box biology in terms
of reintroductional wolves. We've talked about that on this show.
What we're talking about here is even a more extreme example,
I feel, because there isn't a bear population in San

(43:46):
Francisco County. Senator Wiener represents San Francisco County. This is
a county that doesn't have a bear harvest. There's no
bare depredation issues in San Francisco. This and and then
take a few steps back from that for a minute,
let that soak in, and then go back to the

(44:07):
hs US comments about how this is leading a county
in California with no bears in it is leading the
legislative battle to ban bear hunting. Like you start to
connect those dots, It gets back to this cultural divide.

(44:28):
It gets back to these ideologies we've we always talked
about on this show. Is is such a as you
dig this, as you rip this thing open and kind
of look at it, it lays bear so many very
important issues in our world. It really does. Because this
is it seems so ludicrous to us people that are
really like PROPRIETI is of this of this information that

(44:51):
that we traffic in it. We talked about it all
the time. To us, this seems crazy um. But to
to folks in San Francisco, this seems like common sense.
And the divide is painted thus lee like that. There
it is. Man, that's the divide um that we're that
we're working with here. And and I don't know how
to bridge that gap in this case. I've got some ideas,

(45:13):
but that's what we have to do, because to your point,
it isn't just about this case. This is going to
continue as our cultural division continues, and the rural, rural
and urban divide ye strikes deeper in our country. M hmm. Yeah,
that is a great point about San Francisco County. Yeah,

(45:34):
I mean there's bears breaking into cabins all over California,
none of those are in San Francisco. They harassed livestock,
they destroyed property, they do a lot of those things.
Not to say that honey is there to stop that,
but certainly this is just to say that, you know,
how can you have a perspective on on what really

(45:55):
needs to happen here? And that goes back to our
our model of conservation of this country really this continent
that says that we do not and should not enact
wildlife policy in this way. Yeah, science is the way,
been the So the two other things I wanted to

(46:17):
comment on was she had language in her in her
right up there about unneeded deaths of bears in California.
And first of all, all bears die, they all die. Um,
I think we know that unneeded is this is the
weirdest word. It doesn't make any sense, doesn't compute in

(46:40):
a natural sense. Yeah, bears, bears don't live forever. Um,
so they're gonna die somehow. But that's not my point.
My point is is that bears that get into trouble
and State of California. I was told by a guy
yesterday that lives in California that I spoke with that
at least in his region, the California Game and Fish

(47:03):
no longer relocates problem bears. They just euthanized. They kill him.
I mean, I don't even want to say the word
euthanized because that is such a tame word for they
kill bears. So if you get a bear on your
in that and that does inhibit some people, he said,
from calling because he has a bear coming and bothering
him and at his house and he is just doing

(47:26):
everything you can to solve the problem on his own,
which is a good thing, so that he didn't have
to call a Game and Fish because he knows they'll
trap it and they'll kill it. So and I don't
I can't say that that happens everywhere in California. Maybe
it does. But the point is that uh depredation permits
which this this uh this bill lots for the Game

(47:51):
and Fish to continue to manage bears as needed as
I understand it, like, so it doesn't take away the
California Game and fish is ability to catch problem bears
and put them down. So this this bill, it's not
it's not really saving bears. It's just other people killing bears. Yeah,

(48:14):
it just says it will make it illegal to kill
bears except for scientific research, the protection of human safety,
public property, livestock, and endangered species. Um and So this
isn't The Bear Protection Act doesn't necessarily protect bears all
the way around. No, it doesn't protect bears. And so
you get back into this um and and I'll tell

(48:37):
you that when Senator Wiener has has made statements previously
that most hunters only hunt bears for trophies, leaving the
meat behind, we know that to be blatantly false. That's
blatantly false. There's there is absolutely no data, no overarching

(48:57):
statements that can be made to back that up. There
just isn't. There just isn't most hunters. Is a generalization
that we can't We probably can't even back up. Yeah,
but we know that you and if even if that
was the case, there's other things that can be done.
I'm not advocating for want and waste laws because there's

(49:20):
a lot of issues of one and waste laws UM
and what they do for individual hunters. But there's other
things that we can do here. Um if that was
the case, it's not and we won't. But just just
just saying the outright banning, and I go back to
what we were saying last week with with Ian Harrison
about banning air fifteens or assault weapons, which is a

(49:42):
made up term. The burden of proof is on in
this case the government. If you want to restrict somebody's
activities in this way. This is this is not a
constitutional right to go hunting. There's not a I wouldn't
mind there being a constitutional amendment talking about how cool

(50:03):
it was it go han, but there isn't one like
the second amend But in this case, the burden of
proof needs to lie on the state government here if
they're going to ban this, and and particularly lies with
Senator Wiener. He seems not to care about that burden
of proof, but the burden of proof must lie on
him and the other folks here that are backing this bill.

(50:25):
And to match that burden of proof up with someone
saying generalizing hunters in the way that he's done publicly
and clearly is doing with this legislation, that's boarding borderline sickening.
M hmm, it's really yeah, it's it's just it just
doesn't seem like a kind of thing that we can

(50:46):
attack with logic. But and I just don't know how
to better put it. Yeah, you know, the trophy hunting
aspect of it, that is such a that that's like,
that's like, uh, you know, political hot button word. You know,
there's so many other words that we hear. Yeah, exactly,

(51:10):
And you know, this is the information that I feel
like every hunter, every single hunter in North America has
to have on their lips. Is that. You know, somebody says, well,
what about trophy hunting? You know, the first thing you
say is, well, ma'am. We have a strong ethic inside

(51:31):
the hunting community, especially in the last twenty years, of
utilizing every possible part of the animal that we're killing.
Number one, Number two in the North American wile of
wild life conservation, we have pillars the pillar of non
frivolous use of wildlife, which means that wildlife is never
killed for no reason. Now, there are some animals that

(51:54):
we that we manage and kill that we don't eat, like,
for instance, coyotes. Like there's a time when you need
to manage coyotes. We don't kill a kyote for his
meat necessarily, but we kill a kyote is a fur bearer,
so his hide is harvested. Um. So this idea of
shooting a deer and cutting off his horns and leaving

(52:16):
everything is not that doesn't happen. There are laws that
put people in jail for stuff like that. Uh. Secondly,
and this is where I think hunters and and our
world can give insight into people that actually kind of
flips the light switch and goes, maybe these guys are
smarter than they've marketed themselves as ben And that's when

(52:38):
you say, and it's a pretty easy sell. I've taken
people from zero to understanding the kind of the hip
hypocritical twisting of trophy hunting pretty quickly, and been to
say that trophy hunting, or what some would would say
would be to target specific older male animals that either

(53:03):
have big hides or big horns, that actually saved North
American wildlife. It turned us from a bunch of market
hunting people in the late eighteen hundreds. We then began
to culturally shift to where we valued big antlers and
big animals, which were the older age class males, older
age class males. By targeting those animals and give them

(53:26):
quantitative value to them, we took the pressure of females
and young and actually allowed populations to greatly expand because
as a culture we said, man, we want to kill
the big one, and guess what, we ate the big
one too, more meat, bigger horns, cultural value assigned to
that animal. And it took the pressure of females and

(53:47):
youngs and actually helped was a dramatic, influential part of
saving North American big game. Man. Like, I've told that
to people and they have I think it was like
synergistic in a sense, Like it it them understanding that
was actually a bigger piece of the puzzle than information

(54:09):
I gave them, because they're like, ah, there is some
insight behind this. These aren't just a bunch of rednecks
wanting to shoot stuff. Um. So, you know, every time
I hear the word trophy hunting, if we do the same,
if we do a podcast next month, you'll probably hear
me rant about trophy hunting. I'm gonna do it again.

(54:30):
So much of this is is repetitive. I understand, like
we're preaching to a certain choir here and we're saying
the things we've said in the past about similar issues.
But we have to, um, we have to if one
person in San Francisco County listens to this and says, huh,
I don't I don't agree with everything there, But I've
taken this, this and this, and I go back to

(54:52):
my community and tell my friends, Hey, you know how
we used to demonize these people. Yeah, that that wasn't
just quite right. And that's one of the said, one
of the reasons why I try to talk to as
many anti hunters as I can, as many vegans as
I can, just understand where they're coming from. I don't want,
I don't necessarily want to build that propaganda on my
own head. But to get back to like, I think

(55:13):
we should talk a little bit about kind of the
we We touch on this all the time with Pittman,
Robertson dollars and and yeah, we've repeated this number and
I think it still stands true. It fluctuates state by state,
But of Game Department funding comes from hunting, that's licensed sales, Pittman, Roberson, dillars,

(55:34):
other things like that. That's a general number. It fluctuates,
as I said, but in this case, the California Department
with Fish and Wildlife, they allow each year for sevent
bears and their harvest quota. A lot of agency biologists
have suggested recently that it be higher than that, that

(55:54):
it go beyond that because of the increases in population
that you were mentioned in earlier play. H So who knows,
but hunting bears with hounds has a moratorium. It's been banned.
But and I'm sure since two thousand thirteen. I'm sure
that's that's hurt that harvest quota number. So last year

(56:19):
there were thirty thousand, three hundred ninety four bear tags issued,
only nine only nine nineteen of them were filled. That's
barely more than half the quota out there, Ben, I'm
doing the math. Thirty thousand, nine hundred license sales, is

(56:40):
that thirty thousand, three nine four thirty thousand, three hundred
ninety four times they cost fifty dollars each for a resident.
It's like or something, um so fifty dollars, so, Ben,
that is one point over one point five million dollars
raised the state. UM as far as I know, that's

(57:04):
second only to deer tax in terms of revenue for
the California Department Fishing Wildlife, second only to say that
say that ship again, second only to deer tag sales.
What this bill would intend intends to do is cut
off the second biggest species related funding opportunity for the
Department of Fishing Wildlife. Yeah, that's what it intends. Can

(57:28):
you like, as a hunter who thinks this is such
a grand experiment that that's working so well to be
be talking about something like this, Um, it just seems
to me. It seems patently insane. Um. But anyway you
think of then you go to California. I was, I
was putting that six number out there. Um, in California,

(57:51):
it's a little bit different. I was just looking it up.
Hunters and anglers contributed about a quarter of the department's
entire budget through license sales and excise tax. So that's
a fluctuation that I said, that's a pretty big one.
But um, then you go to this idea that now
we're going to start killing paying someone else, hiring someone

(58:16):
to kill or dispatch problem bears as they do with
problem lions mountain lions currently in the state. Now you
have not only a loss of funding, but in an
additional cost at the burden of the taxpayer. So it
doesn't line up very well on an economic front. I
don't think. Um, so, there's a lot there. There's there's

(58:39):
a lot there. But I think it would be do
you feel like you could You could talk to Senator
Wiener and give him this, and and talk to h
us and give him this. And he said, oh, oh no,
we haven't seen that before. We didn't see that, We
don't know about that. We weren't aware of those numbers.
Let's go back and recalibrate this bill based on those
numbers right there. Yeah, because part of them you do that.

(59:00):
Part of my job is to make sure that I've
taken care of my constituencs and my constituents or taxpayers. Yeah.
So you know, so the last year there were less
than a thousand bearers taking the state of California. You
said that number. The quota was sevre. That's right. Which
quotas are set by game agencies that have the day

(59:22):
to have the research. Um been a number inside of
bear management that would be used by pretty much all
game managers that I've ever dealt with, is that if
you want to stabilize the bear population, you need to
at least take out ten of that bear population annually,

(59:44):
because the bear population increases by about ten percent per year. Um.
I've I've done the math before. I've walked the math
out like twelve years, and I'm pretty sure that county
natural a mortality and natural mortality and that growth rate

(01:00:06):
of ten percent per year, I think a bear population
will double in like twelve years, nine to twelve years.
So if you had it's really interesting to do the
math because um, because you just think, like, what if
they just totally stopped hunting. You know what, what if
there was no hunting and just natural mortality was the

(01:00:27):
only way that very popular, you know, the population was managed.
So I mean that would be uh. And there's constraints
on that, you know, I mean that there are habitat
constraints and stuff like that. But um, that being said,
if California's goal was just to stabilize the bear population,
which I guarantee they're not trying to the game and fit,

(01:00:48):
there's not a biologist in California that will say our
goal is to help bears and we want them to increase,
Like I I really don't think they would say that
in the back room that their goal is to make
there be more bears in California. They're just trying to
manage the bears they've got. And so you think of
thirty to forty thousand bears in the state, would stabilize them,

(01:01:08):
that would be a quote of three to four thousand
bears per year. You could take out that many and
not even affect the bear population. And we've seen those
numbers come true as well, because you know, ten to
fifteen thousand bears in nineteen eighty, there's thirty to forty
thousand bears. But we've been killing a thousand a year

(01:01:29):
been presumably and even more so, like hunting has been
a part of that, and we're still you know, over
you know, doubling the population in um and you know,
like forty years. So point being that you stop all
hunting in California, then you're gonna have massive bear populations

(01:01:53):
quite quickly. And just you know, I mean, that's just science.
You know, those I would I would put that statement
up against. I means that that's just biology. That's just science. Yeah. Well,
and and as far as I know, somebody listen, and
this is not something that I have research, and I've

(01:02:14):
talked a little bit like said, Sports Alliance guys and
some other folks about this and locals on the ground.
But I can't say this across the board. But what
I've heard is that no one is eating the problem
bears that are euthanized and killed in the state of California.

(01:02:35):
So nobody's utilizing the hides. And I've heard that they're
often or at least in some cases thrown into dumpsters,
um And and this that that in and of itself,
I mean, there's so many that I couldn't disagree with
this particular thought process, ideology, legislation more on any other

(01:02:59):
base just than that one that that the the value
that someone else is going to tell me that they
value this animal more and they want to stop unnecessary killing.
Yet my value comes with the meat and the hide
and the actual animal itself, not the idea of the

(01:03:19):
animal on a landscape that doesn't exist, right, And so
that for me is that's the most painful part of this.
That hidden beneath the emotional pull of of trophy hunting
of bears is a lack of understanding of what what
a bears value really is and the lack of the
value of the actual meat and hide itself like it is.

(01:03:45):
There's some holes in the ethics, the paint like the
just the veneer painted over, legislation like this. M hmm.
And Ben, this is a great place to to say
something that we've said for a long time. But I'm
hearing more people say it, and so I feel like

(01:04:05):
the message is getting out. But I believe that we
utilize more of a black bear than potentially other any
other big game animal that we hunt because we eat
the meat of a black bear, which the world is
now finding out how great black bear meat can be.
Number Two, we can we can render the fat of

(01:04:28):
a bear. So usually you know, if you had fat
on an animal that that would be you know, it's
not a commodity you take home and render down and use.
You know, that would be waste in some ways, which
isn't always about. There's always gonna be some waste on anything,
even in commercial butchering of animals. But we render the
fat of a bear, and we're learning how good bear

(01:04:49):
grease and barrel oil is for just everyday use. I mean,
I'm amazed how many people are doing this now, which
is awesome. And then you know, I bet nine the
this would be generous, probably closer of bears that are harvested,
their their hides are tanned to be saved for future years,

(01:05:11):
which you know, think about how many deer, what would
what would the percentage of white tailed deer in this
country be that people tanned the entire hide less than one.
I mean, you know, you's know what I'm saying. And
I'm not throwing white tailed deer hunting under the bus,
but I'm just saying from a utilitarian standpoint of utilizing

(01:05:32):
a game animal as a commodity, which is part of
our responsibility as hunters man. Black bears are at the
top of the chart, and so to say that all
these bears are gonna be killed in California, nuisance bears
killed and they're either buried with you know, they're buried
with baccos, or they're or they're putting garbage bins, and

(01:05:53):
that that's the truth. I mean, I've heard that, Ben,
and I mean I can't take you to the documentation
that says that, but I promise you there there could
be the odd bear, that is the hides tanned or
something for for science or to be given away or something.
But certainly it's it's not like they have some system
in place for every bear that's killed by government agents

(01:06:16):
to be the meat to be distributed, the hide to
be tanned. They don't have any bear grease renders out
there working in the state of California, as I understand that,
being paid by government dollars. They need. That's what they need.
They need somebody full time rendering all that bear fat.
That's what I think. There's a guy named Earthling Ed

(01:06:37):
who's like a big animal rights vegan activists. I'm sure
he's not listening, but if if he is, come on
the show, let's talk um. And he's he's had a
few debates with hunters and different things, but he always
talks about the astroistic hunter. He's he's he pulled some
clips from well known hunters talking about how, you know,
if we don't kill him, nature is gonna get him.
And a lot of this this idea that we're trying

(01:07:01):
to say, like we are merciful by killing these animals,
and I'm not making that argument at all. I'm looking
at numbers, I'm looking at data. I'm gonna look like
it's assess a wildlife management. But even if I throw
all those things out, what you just said matters. You know,
bear fat, bear fat, you know, white tail fat and
bear fat don't have the same value within the hunting community.

(01:07:23):
They just don't. UM. Bear hides and deer hides don't
have the same value within the hunting community. They just don't. UM.
Bear meat and dear meat don't either. I think we
could do a lot to kind of level set that
in the years going forward. And you have already done that,
and meet Eator's done a lot of that work. UM.

(01:07:44):
But when you know, in terms of altruistic hunters, I
don't think of it that way. I don't. I don't
consider myself altruistic for killing the bear. I consider myself utilitarian,
you know, more than that. So I'm not. It just
goes to kind of how an animal rights person seize
this argument and how I see it. U. But and
before we want to I do want to get to

(01:08:05):
what people can do here and how they can help,
because you know, both houses in the state legislature in California,
in the state government have a super majority from the
Democratic Party, and they have a Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom,
who has signed some of these bills, UM has passed

(01:08:26):
some of these bills to ban certain types of hunting
in the past. And so here we are with if
Gavin Newsom wants to make it happen, he'll probably sign it,
just like he did bills banning bobcat hunting and fur
trapping a couple of years ago. Now, um, certainly if

(01:08:47):
we go through the history of bands of this nature,
the state banded mountain lion hunting and they bought they
filed up with you know, a couple of decades later,
they will We'll just band bear hunting with hounds that was,
and then those other two bands that we mentioned, um.
In so, if there is anything that illustrated the creep

(01:09:11):
that you talk about with Guard the Gate, those numbers
right there, those years, I mean you're talking about, you know,
at this point a thirty year creep, and we've made it,
and we made it to all the way from banning
mountain lions and hunting with hounds, all the way to
banning the hunting of black bears highly populated and in

(01:09:33):
a revenue the revenue black you know, revenue in the
black species in the state. You know, we've made it
that far and thirty years, So who knows what we
gotta do but before we get to what people can do,
and we've talked about this before, so we will some
of this will be repeating ourselves. We have There is

(01:09:53):
a illustrated divide between us and them, and I hate that.
I hate it. Um. I want to just talk quickly, Clay,
about what can be done to illustrate our points here
directly to the people we want to talk to, because hunters,

(01:10:16):
and whether you're a new hunter or a veteran hunter
and you're listening to this podcast, I'm hoping that you
agree with what what is Clay, and I is you know,
passionate plea for understanding here. But I don't know if
I can get center a weener on this podcast, but
I'm gonna try. Um. But other than that, which seems unlikely,

(01:10:40):
maybe we catch lightning in a bottle with that. But
other than that, Clay, what do we do to bridge
this gap? Because I am not willing to engage in
and us versus them dialogue that gets us nowhere, but
convincing us how right we are and how wrong they are,
because the only way the only way that we fix
this is to come over over to them and see

(01:11:01):
what the hell they're thinking and why how we can
really make a large scale impact on the thought process
and ideology of ye of this anti hunting crowd, you know,
being I just I just get jotted down four things
right here, and it's I wish there was just a
clear cut answer, man. I mean, some things in life,

(01:11:22):
some problems we have in life, there is an answer.
It's like, do this and you will succeed in what
you're trying to do. This is not one of those things,
but there's a there's like a suite of things that
I think that we can do, and not one of them,
not one of them is the is the Golden Key.

(01:11:43):
But they're all really important and but I think they're
all really attainable things that we as North American sportsmen
and women can do. And then I'm just gonna run
through these real quick. The first one is is is
active activism, which means to me, part of that is

(01:12:05):
joining groups, conservation groups that are in this fight at
a real level. And man Sportsman's Alliance. I think when
you buy a hunting license, there ought to be it
included in that license should be an extra twenty five
dollars a year to be a member of Sportsman's Alliance.

(01:12:27):
Sportsman's Alliance ought to have eleven million members. Uh. Those
guys are there there fighting the fight every day. They
know legislation, they know government, they know politics. They this
is an incredible group. And I mean, I don't get
I got no affiliation with Sportsman's Alliance other than I'm

(01:12:48):
a member, and I would be a life member if
they sold a life membership just like so, so number
one activism be be a member of you know, Safari
Club International, Uh, you know Boone and Crockett Club, Rocky Mountain,
Elk found it. You know, there's all these groups, all
these groups, but specifically in this fight, Sportsman's Alliance is

(01:13:10):
uh is leading the way. And I know I've left
out others man and please, people are so petty like
if you leave out one, they're like, oh, Clay must
be against such and such National Wild Turkey. Nope, joined
the National Wild Turkey Federation too. A hunter ought to
be financially responsible, and we've got to be in this
day and age, we just have to be like, be

(01:13:32):
members of these groups and support them because that's big. Um.
The other thing is just we as individuals have to
be educated because every you know, all over your life
there's points of overlap where you are a hunter, you
have an identity as a hunter, people know you, and
you have opportunity to portray hunting in an accurate way,

(01:13:56):
which dramatically influences public perception. Asked roots activism of just
the average guy, the average guy being educated. Being back
in the nineteen eighties, hardly anybody knew a single thing
about white tail deer. If you ask somebody what a
snort we was snort weez was in, they didn't know
because nobody ever said that before. Um. Today, my twelve

(01:14:21):
year old son can knows more terminology and more of
the basics of white tail deer biology than the experts
did in the early nineteen eighties. You know, I'm exaggerating
to make a point point being we can bring the
baseline of data and information up so that the average
guy that buys a hunting license, when he hears someone say, oh,

(01:14:45):
bear hunting is just trophy hunting, he goes, what the
heck are you talking about? We we we utilize bear meat,
we we render bear fat, and trophy hunting actually saved
North American wildlife. So targeting the big ones not about it.
You see what I'm Sawing saying it's like we just
have to like that just has to infiltrate us. We
just have to be smarter, faster, wiser. And uh so

(01:15:07):
that's number two. Number three is too um you know,
I say this solid time, and Ben, I scrutinize my
own self. But you know, I can talk a big
game on a podcast about being ethical and and you
lize and bear meat and all this stuff, but man
Clay nucom has to look at his own life and
find holes in his life where my declaration does not

(01:15:33):
meet up with the life that I live. And so like,
you know, so if if we talk about hunters being
ethical and hunters being um, you know, the good guys, man,
you got to make sure that that's who you are
when nobody's looking. And I think that and I say this,
and it's really a romantic idea. I mean it's just
you know, but I like this idea of of hunters

(01:15:57):
being like an elite pee. Well, you meet somebody that's
a hunter and you're like, man, I bet that guy
has character. Man I bet that guy's honest. I bet
if that guy worked on your house, you wouldn't have
to worry about him, you know, cheating you out of money. Like, like,
I think our connection to wild places and our connection
to just the realism of being a hunter should make

(01:16:21):
us better people. It's not the only thing that should
make us better people. There's a lot of stuff that should.
But so like, I you know, clean the inside. You know,
there's a biblical reference of cleaning the inside of the
cup first, and uh, and worrying about the stick in
your eye before you worry about the stick in your
brother's eye. Man, that's so true. I mean, people, there's
weight behind words that people have because of internal stuff

(01:16:44):
that is unseen. When somebody says something, sometimes you're just
like that guy knows what he's talking about, and it's
because of the lifestyle that he lives, the place that
he speaks from, people perceive that. I I think it's
North American hunters. We can live a lie style that
gives our ideas credibility simply because who we are. I deeply, deeply,

(01:17:08):
deeply believe that. Um, you know. And then overall, ben like,
what can we do? What can we do? Man? In
a democratic society, We've got to make a splash, you know.
Brian Lynn told us just earlier that that if these
bills can be cut off before they actually reached the

(01:17:28):
legislative floor, that they're much easier to handle. I mean,
what I'm seeing on social media right now is that
guys are tagging this senator, people are speaking out about it.
We've just got to make our voice heard, and that
is often done in uh. You know, there's petitions that
you can sign that are going around right now. There's

(01:17:49):
uh in in in that's where it's tough to know
who to trust, Like where do I put my petition? Man?
All I can say is that find a group that
you trust and just do what they do. You know,
um and uh, but we've got to just take the
time to do it. You just gotta take the time
sign that petition. You know, repost something on social social

(01:18:11):
media is so powerful. Repost something. And what I always
say to and I said it this week on my
some of the stuff I was talking about is we
gotta stay classy. I mean, if we're just perceived as
a bunch of raven rednecks going wild on this senator,
we will not be heard. If we are intelligent, smart, respectful,

(01:18:32):
empathetic towards those who don't have understanding. There are people
that are not bad people. They just don't know. And
if you walked up to him and said bear hunting
is bad, we need to stop it, they would go yes.
And then if they sat down with me or been Ben,
if they were at your house and that dinner with
you and your family, and probably ten minutes, you could
convince them, oh, it's it's actually really good like that.

(01:18:55):
That's not a bad person. That's just a person that's
not misinformed. We've got to have empathy towards people, and
we've got to be careful about drawing these lines of
us and them, which we have to because it is
us and them. But at the same time, we gotta
be able to make inroads for people to to change,
you know. And uh no, man, the biggest thing is

(01:19:16):
be financially responsible. Dedicate your money two good causes. Clean
the inside of your own cup. First, be educated man,
like you hear Ben talk, or you hear Brian Lynn
talk like you ought to be able to talk like
that too, and not everybody can, but you should. Well

(01:19:36):
you have to be challenged right like you can't. I
was one of the things that really got me going on.
This was years ago, mostly four or five years ago.
I was sitting with a representative from the company Patagonia
at We're getting together to try to talk about some
some stuff on a business level. But we also had

(01:19:56):
this like shared idea that public lands and hunting we're
a good thing. And it was kind of a you know,
it was a tete a tete. It was kind of
I was saying my things, they were saying, there's um
And they asked me very simple questions like tell me
about this excise tax. I don't understand this, I understand this.
Tell me why this is good. I don't understand Tell

(01:20:16):
me how the hunting funds all this stuff. Tell me
why you're so confident that hunting is a good thing.
And it was a point in my life where I
could speak what I felt was in my own head
was a cursory knowledge of these things. I could speak
on the Pittman Robertson Act, I could speak on the

(01:20:37):
American system of conservation funding. I could speak on the
North American model of wildlife conservation. But I didn't know
enough about it to be as passionate as we are
here today. And and I was dancing around some of
the things I didn't know, the gaps of my own
knowledge were we're not we're we're roadblocks in my passionate

(01:21:00):
appeal to these people who were just asking genuine questions. Um.
They weren't trying to attack me, they weren't trying to
call say I was wrong. They were asked me genuine
questions so they could get educated about these very important
topics to me and to them um. And it was
those conversations and and many others like it that affected
me so heavily that I wanted to start a podcast

(01:21:22):
where we could talk about those things in depth and
learn about them together. You know, We've since I've since
had Dr Valarious Guys of Shane Mahoney on this show
multiple times and read their new book on the North
American Model of wild life Conservation. I think I know
just about as much about it um as I possibly could,
given those two guys came up with the idea to

(01:21:45):
codify those tenants and put them out to the world.
So now I feel like I've come along and I
am a better voice for hunting. And I think that's
what you're describing, right, That's what that's what you're describing.
And also in my own life with one once I
had children. I really is that I couldn't. My children
are smart, perceptive little human beings, and they're gonna see

(01:22:07):
me if I'm being disingenuous. They're gonna see the intimate
moments of my life that would would relate to the
disingenuous moments of my public life. And when I say
public life, I just mean social media. Even if you
don't have a podcast like I do or Clay does,
they're going to connect the disingenuous statements I make in

(01:22:29):
public with what they see in the garage after a
deer hunt or what they see in the field after
a deer hunt. So these are very personal things for me.
I don't I didn't do them to prove anything to anybody.
So I really do appreciate it on a personal level
of the point you're making there, um, And that's that's
the kind of reflection that I'd like to see when

(01:22:51):
I look in the mirror, and I think all hunters
probably should should when they look in the mirror. Um.
And I want to just reiterate, and you said this,
I said it earlier this this podcast and explaining these
things and being passed about these things is not to
elicit on us versus them mentality. If that's what you're
picking up here, you're missing the point. The point is

(01:23:11):
to get educated, is to do better, and then to
communicate to these people firmly we disagree. And here is why.
It's not to call them names. It's not to say
San Francisco is this, or Senator Wiener is that. That's
not the point. And again I'm just repeating a lot
of what you said there, Clay, but I mean it
truly is that, truly is the way forward in my view.

(01:23:33):
And again, I'm gonna try to get Senator w Weener
to come and talk to us. Um. I'm gonna call
the H, S, U, S and and and see if
I can't get those folks to talk to us. Um.
I've got a lot of ideas about how to just
just talk to these folks, including um getting really aggressive
with that and go into where they are. And so
that's part of it. But that's only that's only for

(01:23:55):
this show and for me. But if if rewind the
tape here and let's to what cladya said, and you'll
have a good, a good road map on how to
how to be a little bit better and how to
understand these things. A little better. Let me just say this, Uh,
if you want, you want to do something right now,
go to Sports AND's Alliance and become a member. That's

(01:24:16):
the first thing we've already said that. Write a letter
and write that letter to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Write
a letter to State Senator Wiener, write a letter to
anyone really in the any representatives in the legislatures that
are gonna here and see this bill, send it bill too.

(01:24:40):
You can also join the California Chapter Backcut your hunters
and anglers get involved. There a lot of good volunteer
level folks that are doing good work. We're gonna talk
to some representatives here pretty soon from Safari Club International
about their stance on this. Probably next week or the
week after. We're gonna get them on talk about this. UM,
Western Bear found Ation, California Rifle and Pistol Association, all

(01:25:04):
kinds of things you can do, UM, but the first
thing you do if you haven't heard any of those groups,
explore all of it, just like you listen to us
and hopefully learned a few things and and gather some
knowledge you didn't have prior. UM Again, we'll talk about
it further on the show man. I feel like this
is a cross section of all the things that we've
talked about in two and a half three years of

(01:25:25):
this program and all the things I've heard you say
over the year's Clay, this is kind of a meeting
point in nexus for all of of wildlife and habitat
management in our North American model, and trophy hunting and
animal rights, predator management, urbanization, the cultural divide in this country.

(01:25:50):
All of that kind of is in this big poduct
gumbo that is s B two fifty two in California. So, um,
that's important. Any last any any final words on this, Clay,
We're gonna we'll have you back from Regard the Gate.
I can't imagine we won't be talking about this throughout
the spring. But is there any anything you want to
say from your end to kind of wrap it up?

(01:26:13):
I think I've I've said it all. Just Guard the
Gate Gate. Thanks for thanks for the conversation. Ben always
appreciated Guard the Gate. That's it. That's all another episode

(01:26:33):
in the books. Thank you to Clay Newcombe, thank you
to all of you for writing in Jesse g Hey, listen,
I'm recording this after something crazy happened last night. We're
getting ready to post this episode, put it out there
on Tuesday morning, leg normal and in about seven o'clock
last night here we learned that California State Senator Scott

(01:26:55):
Wiener in his office had dropped Senate Bill two fifth
too in California to end bear hunting in the States.
He's a bit of a shocker. It was something that
we did not expect. We expected a battle of fight.
We expected to have to educate, We expected to come
up with a lot of opposition as this went forward.

(01:27:17):
But now I'm sitting here us early in the morning
last night we learned of this news. I called State
Senator Oener's office and talked to one of his representatives,
who did confirm with me that because of the COVID pandemic,
they said an urgent need to address the code pandemic.
Wiener believed this isn't the time to focus on this

(01:27:39):
right now was his quote. Um, this is only comes
one week after the bill was introduced and it didn't
even make it to committee. We had met her. We
talked to Roy Griffith, who's a retired assistant chief Warden
for the California Department of fish and wildlife. He said
that it's likely this negative attention brought on by by

(01:28:00):
this podcast by Meat Eater, by other publications and concert
with a changed out organ petition led the senator back
office plans. Now, obviously we don't know that the official
position is is COVID nineteen was to blame for the
killing of this bill, but we know that that probably

(01:28:21):
nothing changed from seven or eight days ago till now
with the COVID nineteen challenges UM and Senator Wiener's county
there in San Francisco County, so it's safe to say
that he met some opposition that maybe he wasn't ready for.
Talked to Brian Lynn, who, as we mentioned the podcast,

(01:28:42):
the VP of Communications and Marketing for Sports and Alliance.
He said the honey community and conservation community undoubtedly had
an impact on the early death of this legislation. He said, quote,
if there wasn't any pushback, SP two fifty two would
likely still be going forward. It was great to see
so many people in groups and a unified voice pushing

(01:29:03):
back against a shortsighted and dangerous piece of legislation. This
is great, This is this is not only what we
wanted to see it's more than that. It sends a
message to any state. It sends a message to anyone
who thinks that they can introduce legislation to band hunting

(01:29:27):
that maybe uh may feel right in their their district,
their's county, that is not right for a country and
not right for their state, that it is going to
be a tough road to get those things past. Do
not everyone out there who took part in this, everyone
out there who wrote in, do not think this is

(01:29:50):
a small thing. It is not a small thing. And
Sports was Alliance shared something the last night, late last
night after we recorded that, I wanted to read to you,
and this is a quote from Wayne Poselli back in
He made this quote in Full Cry magazine and he's
the former CEO of pretty famous animal rights activist and

(01:30:11):
former CEO of the Humane Society United States hs US
Fund for Animals. He basically created a large anti hunting
organizations in the world. And he said this quote, We
are going to use the ballot box and the democratic
process to stop all hunting in the United States. We
will take it species by species until all hunting is

(01:30:34):
stopped in California, then we take it state by state.
That's a pretty sobering thing, you know, And as we
talked about in the podcast that we recorded yesterday, this
is something that we're not going to fall into the
trap of us versus them. But that all that being said,

(01:30:54):
it's important to stand up for what we believe in,
and it's important to be clear how strongly we believe
in it. Um Certainly there are folks like Wayne p
Selli out there that stand against what we believe. So
we'll continue to stand up and we'll continue to speak
what we believe to be the truth and the facts
of the situation respectfully, and we will continue to come

(01:31:17):
across the table two anti hunters and ana rights activists
and talk to them and expressed to them that we
do have more similarities to them, we probably do differences
and see where we get here on the Hunting Collective.
A little bit of a different ending than we all thought,
but the ending we all wanted. I'm excited. Congratulations to

(01:31:39):
all of you that took part in this, and this
is a different ending, but a better one. So we'll
see you next week on the Hunting Collective. Say by
Phil always not there, you know, because I can't go
a week without doing right, can break it out of

(01:32:03):
I'm to wing it wrong. Drink it in heaven.

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