Ep. 165: The Anthem of a Cult, Tahr Wars, and the Many Sides of Trophy Hunting with SCI's Ben Cassidy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I guess I grew up. Hey, everybody, welcome to episode
one six, the five of the Hunting Collective. I've been
O'Brien and I'm joined by Phil t Engineer, who's eating
some leftover ravioli four cheese ravioli. There's nothing fancy in it. Wow.

(00:33):
We just wow. We just went went with the standard.
Um it was. It was good, though. Ravioli is a
good leftover in my opinion. Yeah, no, I don't. I
don't have any argument with that. I have right now
in my head all these wild turkey dishes I'm gonna try,
UH and I'm thinking wild turkey ravioli like grounded up.
I don't know. I've got a lot of ideas for

(00:54):
all these turkeys I'm gonna kill and you're gonna kill
this year. I've been making my plans. I bought my
tags this morning for many states that we're gonna go to.
I'm excited. I'm very excited. Twitter painted I just got
back from a super top secret UH content mission in Alaska,
so hopefully we'll be able to share that with you soon.
But so if I sound a little horse, it's because

(01:16):
I just was in an airport all last night again.
I got three hours of sleep, But I'm here. I'm
here for you guys. We're gonna do a good show. Okay, Philly,
You're ready. Never been more ready, Ben and your whole
damn life. Well, today we have Ben Cassidy. Ben Cassidy
works for s c I s Far Club International. Uh.

(01:37):
We talked about a lot of things, but particularly trophy hunting,
what it means in the broader conservation sense, but what
it also means, you know, on the ethical and societal
and really also political grounds that it was used in
the California Bear episode that we've talked about in the
weeks prior. So Ben Cassidy's to direct your of government affairs.

(02:01):
He's in d C. He deals with a lot of things, UM,
and I think it's it's good to have him clear
up a little bit about what what Savar Club International is,
what they do. Um, if you're so inclined how you
can get involved with them, I think they're probably painted
with a very broad brush in terms of Africa and
trophy hunting and all the things we do. So we
broke that down for you in this episode. M But Phil,

(02:24):
since you're our resident doctor and our resident PhD and
also a resident non hunter as of today. Trophy hunting.
Give me your first blush reaction when we start talking
about trophy hunting, does you do you cringe at this
this topic? Uh No, not anymore. I think it's just
because I'm slightly more informed than I used to be.

(02:45):
But i'd say, and I know that this is incorrect,
but I would say, when someone a non hunter, here's
the term trophy hunting, they think it's shooting a large animal,
uh to without using any of the meat or hide
or anything for resources, and just displaying it as you

(03:08):
would a trophy as an I I have, you know,
defeated this animal, I've conquered this other living being that
is large and scary. That is what that I like.
Maybe that sounds silly or offensive to some people, but
I can tell you that that is what most nonhunters
think when they hear the term trophy hunting. Yeah, for sure.
Um And there's been many polls done on this, some scientifics.

(03:30):
I'm not so scientific on the you know, social acceptance
of hunting, you know, society's approval of hunting. Should we hunt?
Should we not? And really it always comes down to
how you skin it, how you explain it, and a
lot of times we are judging someone's motivation for doing
it and whether we feel it's acceptable. And so if

(03:54):
you the other day in a hotel room, I was
watching this show called Life Below Zero, which I never
seen this before. You know, it's a show in Alaska
about people living off the land, and in that show,
people are rather poorly in my opinion, but they're hunting
and they're shooting animals and they're butchering it on they're
shooting bears, shooting moose, And it just struck me while

(04:17):
I was watching that that in that context, most people
have a clear understanding of the motivation. It's I live
in the bush in Alaska. I need to kill this
moose to eat. If I don't kill this moose, I'm
probably gonna die or be forced to flee to civilization
to get grocery store. And in that context, shooting a
black bear on on national geographic is just fine. Um,

(04:42):
And most people would would agree. Not the most ardent
of anti hunters, but most people would agree. And then
if you skin that as that that person is out
there trophy hunting that same black bear in that same environment, Um,
it's an abhorrant act. So it just this isn't something
we haven't already covered here. But I was just watching
that It's it's cable TV, and it just felt like, um,

(05:04):
we're really and this goes for guns too. It's just
how you shape the conversation. It's just the narrative that
you tell um and underneath that is the same exact act,
but you know, explained away um or skinned as I mentioned,
and a number of different fashions. So that is part
of this conversation we have with Ben. It will be

(05:25):
a part of the conversation going forward, but one will
hope to We talked a little bit about the International
Union for the Conservation of Nature that you see in
and their opinion on trophy hunting, especially in Africa. Seis
opinion on trophy hunting and how it helps wildlife. And
so hopefully it's all if you guys go into this
conversation with eyes wide open, hopefully we'll just learn something

(05:48):
and we can, um, you know, kind of take what
Philps mentioned there and and explain it away a little
bit and more in terms that have a little bit
more science and data and you know, smart people's opinions
connected to him not that you're not smart filure smartest
person on this podcast by far. Appreciate it. Ben, Thank you, Thanks, Thanks.

(06:10):
It's got to be self aware of these days. So
I feel I got an email from a guy that
doesn't want to be named. He actually asked me not
to broadcast this email, but UM, I'm gonna kind of
go against his wishes. Sorry, uh to this emailer, but
I just think it feel like it's a really compelling
story and I want to read it. And I'm not
gonna where I was going to leave out his name

(06:30):
and his identify his identity because he didn't want to
see this broadcast. But I do think this is an
important story. So here it goes. And he's kind of
a new Hunter Alert, emergent Hunter Alert. Here's a guy who, um,
as he'll explain here in a second, needs a mentor.
He said, Hey, Ben, First of all, I want to
say I really appreciate your podcast. I am not a hunter,

(06:52):
yet most of my life I viewed hunters in a
negative way. I'm someone who loves animals, all animals. I
ever understood why you would want to kill an animal
for sport. I was born on a small Caribbean Island
and I was raised in a major metropolitan city, Miami, Florida.
I was never exposed to hunting mammals or birds, but

(07:13):
I was exposed to fishing. I didn't know one single
person that hunted. I'm forty eight now and I still
do not have any close friends who hunt. Honestly, I
saw hunters as a bunch of rednecks that are just
trying to kill beautiful species of animals just to watch
them die. Six years ago, I relocated to Virginia. I
fell in love with the state, mostly the wilderness areas

(07:36):
in the high country. I started mountain biking and hiking
to take advantage of this beautiful landscape. My wife and
I recently bought some property in the Blue Ridge Mountains.
He says it's a COVID adventure. It's a property we
plan to use part time and rent out when we're
not using it. There's a pretty big hunting community here.
Previous owners told us that sometimes hunters will ask to

(07:56):
come over if they can bow hunt on our property.
They told us they would allow some hunters to enter theirs.
My My first reaction was, well, that's gonna change, because
there's no way I'm gonna let hunters on my property
at all. Until recently, I was pretty much against the idea.
While staying here at the property news some renovations, I've
had the opportunity to meet a few locals. I've had

(08:18):
a few conversations. They're really awesome people and a lot
of them are hunters. And during our conversations we talked
about hunting, and it was explained to me some of
the reasons why hunting is important for this area, how
dear populations need to be managed to prevent starvation and disease,
how most of the animals utilized, etcetera. It all made
a lot of sense to me. This led me to

(08:38):
put my emotions aside and understand the culture, the sport,
the lifestyle, and the conservation side of things. I've gone
down this massive rabbit hole. I approached my research with
an open mind. I was pleasantly surprised at what I
have found. The more I learned, the more I want
to devour hunting content. I was so ignorant and so misinformed.

(08:59):
He goes is on a bunch of things, um, but
he could at the end, he questions, how is it
that I've been so disconnected? I can watch an animal die,
yet I love meat. I can't watch an animal die
yet I love meat and have no problem going to
the supermarket's meat area and just pick up parts of
dead animals without thinking of it. How can I look
down on hunters but I have no problem with ordering

(09:20):
a steak at a restaurant. How can I look at
the sport that does so much for conservation than any
other sport I've ever been a part of. Finding the
information wasn't super easy. Most of what I found was
on social media and YouTube was targeted experienced hunters. Also,
it wasn't easy to watch or listen to some of
the stuff I found. Like I said, I really pursed

(09:40):
with open mind, and most people that are against hunting
are probably not as open minded. So he goes on
to explain a bunch of things he wants to do
to learn, but at the end he starts to talk
about he wants to go hunting. He said, even if
I get into hunting, and I'll probably never take a
shot to bear. But now starting to be okay with

(10:02):
the idea that it should not be banned, I feel
like putting all this information out there would be very powerful.
I want to help with that, but I also need
someone to take me hunting. I have so many ideas.
I can see this all happening right in front of me.
I've already learned so much. And by the way, I'm
still looking for that mentor. If you or anyone you

(10:23):
know would like to take me on my first hunt,
I would be forever in debt. Just be prepared to
see a grown ass man cry so because we're not
going to share this this gentleman's name, but I do
think hearing this somebody go through this, this idea of
I was ignorant. I didn't know, but now I'm learning.

(10:45):
I think it's incredibly important. So hopefully um the author
of this email doesn't get too mad at me, but
I just really felt as important to read. UM. So,
if you are in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia
or anywhere in Virginia, you and you feel like you
have a some time this fall or this spring to
mentor a new hunter, an emergent hunter in our space

(11:10):
and write us an email writing email t HC at
the Mediator dot com, th h C at the meat
Eater dot com, and I can connect you with the
author of that this piece, who again is never hunted,
was against it for a long long time, and has
done the work because he's he met some really nice
people that explained some things to him. So I've seen

(11:31):
some people on the our Our buddy Robbie from Blood Origins,
who was on the podcast a couple of months ago,
a month or so ago, was was talking about social
media and uh, you know, made a video about how
every post on your social media really means something. And
you know, I'm sure that's that's true, but it's also

(11:53):
you look at this email and you realize that every
person you meet you have a chance to kind of
explain this because there's so many people that need to
explain um. And so going back to to last week
and the weeks prior, this us versus them mentality only
creates barriers to that conversation. And so if you find
somebody that that doesn't understand hunting and hates it, you know,

(12:17):
be patient, listen, explain yourself, and you could end up
just like this email, and you'd end up with someone
who is forty eight years old and and um going
to give it a shot probably, you know, just like
Phill the engineer here, Phil did that that that touched
you a little bit that email. Yeah, I know, it's
I he was super open um and I really I

(12:38):
really appreciate that. I thought it came through. I mean,
he's he genuinely feels like he's kind of approaching this
new chapter in his life, which is Yeah, it's fun
to see. Yeah, and it's it's you know, I think
I imagine that's why we wax on every week about
this because it is such a big deal. Um, what
how we eat and how we see animals and all

(12:59):
that is intertwined. There is a big deal. It does
impact people. It involves a lot of emotion and a
lot of um. Like I said, a lot of political
and societal pieces of that are baked into the conversation.
So hopefully we can anybody from the Blue Ridge Mountains,
anybody from Virginia you want to take a new fellow hunting,
we got the guy for you. I will be happy

(13:20):
to ask him for permission to hook you up. And
hopefully we can help this, uh, this brand new hunter
get out there for the first time. Since it is
the Year of the Hunter, Philip, the Year of the
New Hunter here at THHC. So hopefully it's technically the
year of the Ox, Ben, I'd just like you to
know the the the Lunar New Year was just a
couple of days ago. Is that exciting? I've never hunted

(13:42):
a Knox. I'd like to. They seem delicious. Uh, well,
I would say as of right now, Phil as at
this moment, the theme song contest is over. We have
I'm not going to reveal it today, but we have
many win Nurse. I think I've read, We've gotten I

(14:03):
don't know how many submissions, too many probably to read.
So apologies to those of you that we won't get
to buried in these emails, but there's so many good ones.
I think we're gonna make an amalgam of all these
songs and let Kayla Ray help us put that together.
All right, Well, we have I think we have what

(14:23):
we need. If you're gonna if you send me a
song between now and when this airs tomorrow and Tuesday,
will definitely read it, So fire them away when you're
if you can listen to this on Tuesday THHD at
the media dot Com. We are ready next week to
bring on kaylor Ay and to get this song together
and um see what she has to say, Well, see
whether she likes it, or hates it or regrets her decisions,

(14:45):
or maybe she doesn't never talk to us again. You
never know. But we're moving on with the T a c.
Theme song, and hopefully here before the month of February
is over, we got something good for you all to
listen to every single freaking week. We got a lot
of other some other less fun things get into. But Phil,
I just wanted to make sure because we've been talking

(15:06):
about love so much on the show lately, marriage and
all types of things around just the topic of being
with our loved ones. Phil, what happened over there for
Valentine's Day? Oh not a whole lot. So the thing is,
our our anniversary is actually on the thirte um, so
we don't really celebrate Valentine's Day. We just kind of

(15:28):
turned the whole couple of days into like an anniversary
slash Valentine's Day thing. We just kind of treated as
like one special day. Um, gifts were exchanged, uh you know,
the kids joined in. We made some yummy food you
know we need. We never make a big event out

(15:49):
of it. I told you I was having an allergic
reaction to the flowers that I that I bought her
so I've got to stop. I've gotta stop doing that. Man,
it's a terrible idea. Every time I get her flowers,
I'm like sneezing, uh, NonStop for about a week. To
be clear, we're not an anti flowers podcast. Like I said,
my dad ran a flowershop for my entire life, so
I have an affinity for the florist industry, especially small businesses.

(16:13):
So we're a pro flowers podcast. Yeah, but you just
gotta find once you're not allergic to. Yeah, last year
I was gone for our anniversary slash on tines. This
year I was here, and this year you were gone
for Valentine And so how how'd that go over? Well?
My wife is always nice enough, just be like, we'll
celebrate when you get back. And then I didn't get
back when I was supposed to, and so that really

(16:35):
messed things up. But I did do a lot of
I did little airport shopping for my family and got
them all kind of like airport you know, kind of
not lame but not not very thoughtful airport gifts, you know,
airport shopping gifts. So they were excited about that. There's
a lot of candy involved. There was a lot of
you know, we like to have everyone so while would

(16:55):
like to just jam out in the morning, SERI, we
just turn on music, dance around, do what we gotta do,
and then iran household. Um, we have fun. Man. I
learned that in the pall funny enough because when we
were in these small villages and we were hunting into
Paul some years ago. You would wake up in the
morning there'll be two or three guys out just playing
these flutes, dancing around like that sounds like a great
that seems like a great way to start the day.

(17:18):
It's like a wonderful Why don't I get up and
play the flute and dance around when I like it's
a good way to have h the day begin. And
so every once in a while we just jam out
and we did that that this morning. It sounds great.
That's a little window into the Brian household if you
were interested. Um. But to get you know, to get
back to all the big serious topics. There's been a recently,

(17:41):
and I think I know the reason why. I'll guess
the reason why. There's recently been a flood of new
state and local bills being introduced into legislatures, just like
the bear band bill. We've discussed Senate bill, the now
defunct Senate Bill UH in California for to Bambars. There's

(18:01):
been a flood of and we've gotten a lot of
communication in the inbox from you guys and and from
local chapters, from b H or the guys at t RCP.
A lot of people are talking about a lot of
state bills that are entering into legislatures. You know, we
have a lot of newly elected officials sitting in the seats.

(18:24):
We have a lot of people with a lot of
agendas that they can now enact, and so we're looking
at a lot of bills that we need to discuss.
There's at least three on the table that we need
to talk about, and and most of them, like I said,
I don't have the intricacies of state politics for every

(18:46):
state in my head, and I've done some research on
each one of these, but basically I want to go
through a couple of these and just let you know
that they're out there, and let you know how you
can get your opinion on the books before they had
before they get signed in their law. Some of these
bills intend to um banned things. And before I get

(19:08):
into the banning of things conversation. I will return to
what I always say and what I believe to be true.
I am never, almost never on the side of banning things.
I'm kind of libertarian in this way. I guess that's
what you might call that. I am never on the
side of banning things unless unless the person who is

(19:29):
proposing to ban that thing has made a, in my opinion,
an objectively significant case against what they're trying to ban.
Data facts, reasoning that puts this together. Um that includes
ethical conversations around hunting, just like the one that's happening

(19:50):
right now in Utah. Utah has a bill, let's see
Utall's Bill is HB House Bill to It was introduced
recently by a Utah representative, a Republican fella name Casey Snyder.
He's at a paradise, Utah. This bill would prohibit the

(20:12):
use of trail cameras at certain times of the year
from August through December, or wireless slash cell cameras from
July through December. At the end of the year. The
bill would also impact the use of bait, making it
illegal during certain times of the year. Also during that
same time period, I just mentioned attractants and masks, as

(20:35):
well as salt and mineral blocks or other common livestock
subviences would not be considered bait. So those are the
two things that you stand to lose should HB two
nine five go through trail cameras during the season and bating. Now,
before I get into my my thoughts on this field,

(20:56):
you have just as a as the first blush using
a trail camera during the season to go hunting and
also baiting big game, elk and other things. You have
first blush thoughts on that as as the non hunter.
Not really, I mean I think I told you I
expressed my thoughts on like hunting with hounds a few
weeks ago, um, and I feel like I was way

(21:18):
off based there when compared to just the general opinion
in the in the hunting world. So I I don't
really know how this currently stands in people's eyes who
are actually in it. Yeah, I mean there's a bunch
of this. I think this not so much, but most
some of these bills do have are very impacted by
you know, what the non hunting public thinks of these things.

(21:40):
This is more of a wildlife management variety, you know,
And this is there's this. Utah is not the only
state that kind of go is going through this. You know,
one is technology changes, but two as kind of wildlife
management changes, the numbers hunters change, and the methods of
take change. A lot of this is being considered. I

(22:01):
personally use truil cameras a lot to scout. I used
truck cameras a ton in Montana here this year, but
I don't use them during the season. I personally feel
that's not ethical. Um. But again my personal feelings. We
gotta as we always have when we talk about ethics,

(22:22):
you you've gotta look at personal preference versus actual ethics.
And in this case, I my personal preference. It's not
the used bait on Big Game. Nor is it to
use wireless cell cams during the season um or used
truil cameras at all during the season. In fact, I don't.

(22:43):
I still have a show camera hanging out in the
middle of our republic lands that I haven't touched since September,
hopefully still there, um because I just I just don't
want to. I I understand, I want the advantage prior
to season. There's knowing the animals that are an ound
understanding travel times, understanding what's there for me. It's a

(23:05):
lot of understanding the predatory behavior. It's there too. Are
the grizzlies? Are their wolves at least in Earth in
our case. Um, and so that's you know, in baiting.
I just have never I don't believe ever. Maybe when
I was a younger child, we put out a salt
block when I was a kid for d year, But
that's something that I partake in. But again, I feel

(23:26):
pretty strongly that my personal opinion doesn't really matter here
other than the fact that I could write in to
Representative Casey Snyder and let him know my personal opinion. Um,
we have to we have to look at the science.
We have to look at the harvest data. What are
the success rates? And in Utah, what are they? What

(23:48):
do they tend to be with bait? What do they
tend to be without Can we know that? Is it
possible to know that and make the decisions based on that?
So I'm not going to go into any more detail. Certainly,
if you're in Utah Casey Snyder represented Casey Snyder, look
him up, contact his office. Do not let a bill

(24:09):
like HB two go through without you doing some independent
research looking into this, but also letting him know your
personal preferences and your thoughts on this, what you think
your opinion as a voter and as a hunter in
the state of Utah or outside the state of utall
matters in this case for sure. So that's that's generally

(24:30):
my opinion on all of these. There's another one that
was sent into us was Maryland House Bill nine eleven,
establishing that a person may hunt wild water fowl in
the waters of the Susquehanna Flats while standing in water
on the natural bottom only an area is designated by
the Department of Natural Resources. It also prohibits a person
from hunting wild waterfowl in the Susquehanna Flats from a

(24:53):
boat that is drifting, being scald or anchored in areas
designated for hunting wild waterfowl. I'll standing in a natural bottom. Again,
I'm not no need to go through exactly what that
legislation means. I've never hunted waterfowl in the Suskahana Flats,
but this has been introduced again. House Bill nine eleven

(25:17):
has introduced to the Maryland legislature as of February second,
and it's pending in the House Environment and Transportation Committee.
Mary Ann Losanti is one of the sponsors. She's a Democrat,
but you can get ahold of any of your state
representatives if you live in Maryland. Then there's another bill.

(25:41):
There's a bunch of bills that happened in Montana. But
just to show you that it's not only in the
Rocky Mountains that this is going on, eh Senate Bill
s B one, which was proposed to reserve six of
Montana's nonresident deer and elk licenses for only those hunting
without fitters. This is one that I'm pretty fired up about,

(26:04):
but I would encourage you to go to the mediator
dot com and read Sam Longdren's article in this bill.
This bill actually was voted on three days ago and
sp passed the committee on party lines. Seven Republicans voted
for the bill, for Democrats voted against the bill, and
it has been amended from reserving non resident license for

(26:28):
those honey without fitters to thirty nine slightly less impactful.
But if you need an example, my dad applies every
year as a non resident to come hunt elk with me.
He came last year, and in this scenario he would
have a same the same chance as someone that's going

(26:52):
with an outfitter and scenario. But if if this bill passes,
he does not, he has a sixty chance instead of
a I guess well, you might say on chance or
a fair chance. And as I've heard some folks at
p h A saying, I believe in this this the
thickness of your pocketbook should not determine whether you get

(27:13):
to hunt in Montana as a nonresident. The outfitting community
is one that I support, and we find ways to
make sure that they have a vibrant business. But we
don't want to do that at the cost of other
nonresident hunters that want to come to the state of
Montana and hunt on their own. And so again I'm
not gonna we could debate each one of these three things.

(27:35):
We could get into the minutia of those things. Um again,
if you want to contact your your state senators in Montana,
let them know about spe do that right now, because
that bill is making its way toward being passed at
this point. Contact your Montana state senators. And again, this

(27:58):
is just about being active in this can unity. These
are things that may not affect you personally, like just
like me. Uh, some of these bills don't affect me personally.
Others do affect me personally, and so find you know,
whether it's back on your Hunters and Anglers, whether it's
Safari Club International, whether it's Congressional Sports Is Foundation, whether
it is Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, whether it's National Wild

(28:20):
Turkey Foundation, these are the places where you're generally going
to be able to connect with people that can educate
you on these issues, um can help you understand and
help you get active. As we've talked about over the
last couple of weeks, this just happens to be a
time where we'll be kind of being flooded with these
across the country. And if you, if anyone else out there,
has any others you'd like us to throw out there,

(28:41):
we're basically just gonna say what they are and how
you who you contact to get your opinion shared, Because
just like with the California Bear Band the Bear Protection Act,
your voice matters even if it's bade in Utah, even
if it's hunting waterfowl um but while being skulled in

(29:02):
the state of Maryland, or if it's a nonresident hunting
application for elk or deer or whatever. Here in the
state of Montana. All this matters, and this is part
of I think, really being an knowledgeable part of our community.
So hopefully this, this conversation with Seis ben Cassidy helps
you there. But be active, be active as you can,

(29:24):
get educated, and always shoot us the emails if you
want us to discuss something or highlights something, we absolutely
will on this year program. So, Phil, did we do
a good job there? Have your approval? Yes. If you
want any some more insight on on bad bills, you
can check out Cal's week in review. He's been doing
the bad bill round up at the end of his

(29:46):
episodes where he just kind of like a rapid fire
and man like, there are a ton that you didn't
even mention on this show. So it was just kind
of amazing how these new, these new classes of legislators
come in and just start start making their marks. So, yeah,
if you have something to say, you gotta say it
for sure. That's right. You have cal Is asking about

(30:08):
this bill in Maryland. I'm like, man, I wish I knew,
you know, I wish I really had the understanding, the
intricate understanding of what's happening there. But um, I just
don't because I don't live there and I don't hunt there.
But that's again, that's no reason not to get educated.
Um and Cal is doing that and I'm doing that,
and we want to be a part of this because

(30:28):
it's important. So listen. I wasn't aware the bad Bill
round up, but now I am. I'm gonna go listen
to that thing. Didn't hear what Cal has to say,
because again, being aware is the first step here. And
it's easy to miss these things because they can move
quickly at a time like this and there's so many
other things going on. So without further ado, Ben Cassidy,

(30:51):
Safari Club International, Mr Cassidy, how are you, sir, wonderful
Mr O'Brien, my fellow Benjamin, how are you? Yes? Yes,
that's why I couldn't say Ben, because I didn't want
to get into some sort of inception of Ben's. But yeah,

(31:15):
the name, the name Ben. Really, I think we've had
it at least I think you're the sixth Ben. I
was looking sixth Ben on the podcast, not including me,
So congratulations. Yeah, it's exciting to be the sixth half
a dozen. Just a fun fact, I believe your middle
names Patrick's right. My name is Patrick for a day
when I was born, and then I got switched to Ben.

(31:36):
We dropped the Patrick, so a couple of ways that
that our names are in common. Yeah, I just feel
like for me, you know, Patrick Cassidy, that's cool, but me,
for me, Patrick O'Brien too quickly turns into Patti O'Brien.
It's just too irish. It's just just just you're preordained
to drink a lot. That's just a stereotype which I

(32:01):
would happily live up to. Probably. So you're in d C, man,
I am. I'm in the suburbs of Washington d C.
Our offices are right by the capitol. But I'm from
home right now, got you. Well, you know, when I
work for the n r A, I lived in Fairfax, Virginia,
So I think, you know, I think about that area. Finally.
I don't think about the belt Way too finally, but

(32:23):
I think, no, I still think about living there and
enjoying that hustle and bustle a d C. M. Yeah,
it's got a lot of good energy. I mean, obviously
the city has been quite changes the rest of the
planet has been since COVID happened, But assuming it'll it'll
all check back to normal, rubber band back to normal. Um.
But yeah, I love the energy. I know it gets

(32:44):
a bad rap always trying to drain the swamp and
whatnot in the creatures and all that, but lots of
really good folks and good work here. Yeah, that's true,
and it's a good time to talk about that too,
because I think, yeah, we were talking last week, just
checking in about you know, where we all are, and
with a new administration and a job like yours, I

(33:05):
guess we should probably start before we jump right into it,
with what your job is for se I, and then
for the folks that don't know about s C, I
give them a little bit just you know, give them
the elevator pitch for what you do and what SEI does. Yeah. Absolutely, thanks. Um. So,
I'm director of Government Affairs. Specifari Club International. Were a
member driven organization fifty members. Really heavily focus in the

(33:29):
United States, but also have you know chapters abroad, UM,
really great active chapters and Europe and South America. UM
over you know New Zealand and beyond or strong focused
on conservation advocacy, our convention and membership. Those are our

(33:52):
four pillars that our CEO, you know, LARRD Hamburn Hamble
and laid out for us and he took over about
two years ago. UM, so AVO. You see is you
know one of our our lead pieces are our sharpest tools.
Is really what obviously attracted me that the article international
given you know, I'm directing our advocacy efforts now we
uh we span US federal government stayed in local, international

(34:17):
and legal advocacy. UM. You know I was drawn to
s c I. UM. I'm a sucker for a good tagline,
and ours is the first for hunters. UM. And I've
had a chance in my past life and past jobs,
you know, to work really extensively with the community. And
one thing that really stood out to me with s

(34:38):
c I, which you know, full disclosure, I was a
volunteer for chapter leadership and you know, work closely with
you over the last ten years. But see as the
one group that really stood out to me where when
I would you know, ask what their priorities were, Um,
it always involved actually talking about the hunter in their priorities. UM.

(34:59):
I mean obviously we're all on the same page about
wanting wanted to protect wild places and wild things. UM.
But just you know, I'm very interested in making sure
that the hunter is involved in the conversation. I mean
particularly given you know, how our North American model is
built and what's given its success. Um, So always you know,

(35:20):
excited to work towards championing giving voice to hunters, I
really think is what s c I is set up
to do. You know. Um, we're talking about our headquarters
in d C. Means basically a hunting embassy. We've got
a nice big building that's over on the Senate side
by the Capitol, you know where we've got our our
policy experts, We've got our lawyers, we have our wildlife biologists,

(35:44):
you know, all there, um and just really in place
to provide hunters of voice and you know educate like
the officials or you know, their staff on on our issues.
What's your day to day like in in that in
that work, um, you know, yeah, don't skip the boring
parts because they are probably you know, people will get

(36:08):
into this a little bit, but people have you know,
with every I think probably every conservation organization. You know,
everyone has what they assume is going on. Kind of
the more popular assumptions around you know, groups like BACKUS
and anglers and and your group and others. Everybody kind
of gets a broad label. But what's the day to
day like, you know, in a first for hunters environment,

(36:28):
when you know, when you're on the hill, Yeah, I
mean it's a grab bag. Obviously, it's been a little
different under COVID, with you know, offices shut down. It's
harder to just do a drop by and ask, you know,
a staffer to give you five minutes, say hey, give
me five when they've got to leave their office and
go to the main door of the main building to
let you in, to just come by and say hi. Um.

(36:50):
But traditionally, you know, it's it's just hitting the hill,
Capitol Hill, dropping in off the office, you know, just
checking with with friends or folks that have questions and
just bringing up to speed on you know, the issues
that we're working on. UM SCI is a different vantage
point to with the international side of things. UM we
were really well equipped, you know with working with you know,

(37:10):
Zoom and everything. Early on. It was the first time
you know, I'd ever used it was when I first
came onto SEI because we are needed it in place
to talk with all of our our friends and allies,
you know, overseas, UH, for for the different fights that
we were having. I mean, so I today I was
on a on a long call with our team just
going over the different you know legal cases UM that

(37:32):
we're involved in right now or or you know, preparing
to become involved in UM. Followed by a long call
with UM staff we have over in Brussels, UM, just
going over activities going on with the European Commission right
now that relate to hunting. So there's the focus in
our backyard, and then there's a focus you know overseas UM.

(37:53):
You know we have in house state lobbyists as well UM,
so we have him you know, out tracking everything that's
opening in the capital's obviously working closely with our chapters
on the ground and also you know, are our coalition
of friends there UM. But it's yeah, I mean it's
a it's a grab bag. It's a lot of a
lot of meeting talking to people. It's definitely a job

(38:15):
for you know, an extrovert, you know that that wants
to you know, rub elbows. I mean, it's very hard
in this situation where you're not doing that in person.
I love a good you know grip and grand catching
up over a beer of coffee. But in the absence
of that, UM, it's just lots of phone calls, lots
of dialing right now. Yeah, I'm sure and let be
You know, this is always important to me too because

(38:37):
the concerts groups I'm a part of, its keenly aware
of the you know, the regional and chapter level work.
What's what's a chapter look like for s c I.
And if somebody out here listening wants to join, you know,
what are they what are they looking at when they
get into chapter level work or state level work UM
as you know, as a volunteers or a member of

(38:59):
SCI Yeah, I mean s c I. So it's not
the first member driven organization that worked for I. Also,
like you've been worked worked at n r A previously, UM,
but s c I, I've never seen an organization that
members have as much you know, involvement in sway and things.
I mean for saying, my job grassroots is critical, UM

(39:20):
working with our chapters that are on the ground, making
sure that you know the issues matter to them, that
it's something that that it's a priority to them before
we ever engage in it. UM. So we get a
lot of our direction out of our advocacy team from
from the chapters. UM. You know, like like most every
other n g O in our space, you know, it's
a it's a big social culture as well, really thrive

(39:43):
off of having you know, awesome banquets, awesome get together
is just that that sort of camaraderie UM. You know,
dudes that go towards the chapter or money that's raised
from the banquets, UM. A portion of that's kicked back
to headquarters for the work that you know I do
and my team does, UM, but the rest of it

(40:04):
stays at the chapter level for them to use you know,
how they want UM. And you know that will tend
to be with projects that are done in their backyard.
So I think it's a it's a cool set up
for a chapter where you know, not everything is having
to just blindly be sent to the mothership, but rather
they get to decide how it's used for the projects

(40:25):
you know that really matter to them, whether it's again
in their backyard or or or somewhere overseas UM. But yeah,
I mean I really like that the way it's set up.
It's a lot of it's a lot of you know,
personalities and opinions, but obviously we're all on the on
the same page, and having folks you know, overly committed

(40:47):
to the cause is better than than the opposite. So
I like the way it's set up, being able to,
you know, work along with the chapters on what we prioritize. Yeah,
I've seen that and my work on a board level
and conservation groups where the passionate, the most passionate folks
on a chapter level or state level are the ones

(41:07):
that are going to get it done. But they're also
the ones that you know, they need attention and they
want to be active, So you got to manage those things. Yeah,
but I know that, you know. I would also say
that I hear a lot of people that listen to
this podcasts are either coming into hunting as we we
flipped up. I don't know if you tell me if

(41:27):
you like this. We we turned adult onset Hunter to
emergent Hunter. We have you have to copyright an emergent Hunter.
But that's that. That's what we because I just didn't
like adult onset Hunter. It sounded like a disease or something.
It definitely does if you're taking a poll, Yeah, like
later early it doesn't we change it changed so Yeah,

(41:50):
so just so you know the parlance around these parts.
But that's so so we are you know, talk to
a lot of folks like that, and when they walk
in the door as a hunter, I won the questions,
I think because they're they're quickly ingrained in the fact
that we care about conservation and we and and there
is a an intense level of advocacy that goes along
with a lot of the things that we do. Then

(42:11):
they have like a menu of conservation groups and not
an endless amount of money or time, and so they're
trying to they select the thing most important to them. UM.
So you know, go ahead and pitch them, tell them why.
As you know, and as I've told people, you can
join many groups, um, or you can just join one,
but yeah, you really need to understand the landscape out

(42:34):
there and what the impact and role of each is. Yeah. Absolutely, Um. Again,
you know, I'd go back to what drew me to
to work at s c I UM, and that's really
you know, being a voice four hunters across the board.
It's not limiting to you know, single species, single state,
single country, but it's that conservation model, you know, or

(42:57):
just recognizing that that hunting is a central tool in
the conservation tool kit and defending it across the board. UM.
I think you know, if you if you're looking for
for for supporting an organization that's gonna you know, have
your back, um in courts across the country. That's s
c I. I mean, if you look across the docket
at all the different you know cases going on, Um,

(43:19):
nobody's spread and fighting in as many courtrooms, you know
as the Foreign Club International is. I wasn't fully aware
of that until I, you know, came on board and
they've been pretty much blown away by it. But when
there's a place for for hunting to be defended, UM,
s c I is going to be there. UM. And
then on the on the political side of things, I mean,

(43:42):
we're we're fifty years old next year, celebrating it with
our convention next year in two UM. You know, our
lobby shop has really been in place for and the
way it is now for about half of that time. UM.
But it's really ingrained. UM. You know, members of Congress, senators,
you know, state legislator, they recognized the brand. They look

(44:02):
for us for guidance and direction. UM when they're considering,
you know, doing something or not doing something. UM. So
you know, when you're supporting s c I, UM, you're
supporting having a voice um in front of legislators and
decision makers. UM. I had a chance to catch up
and listen to some of your talk on on the

(44:24):
California Bear Band bill UM and really love that, you know,
UM segment calling it is it guarding the Gate? Yeah, yeah,
we were we need start, Yeah, trademarking these things. That's
Clay nuke Yeah yeah, so Clay nuclem. Yeah. That was awesome,
And I mean it really really resonated with me because
especially what I see going on a lot with you know,

(44:46):
just fights across the planet, UM, with with guarding the
gate and you know, not just not just kicking the
fights you get into, but defending you know what the
other side we'll see as the lowest hanging fruit under
Anny that the ultimate method is that incremental steps towards
you know, wiping it out. UM. It sounds like apocalyptic

(45:07):
and all that, but I really do think it's true.
I've seen it in other you know areas, whether it's
you know, dropping the names on a on a sports
franchise or banning a certain kind of firearm. UM. I
just don't think the other side stops once they've accomplished
that low hanging fruit. You know, they just reached for
the higher fruit at that point. I just like, you know,
I wasn't you talk about you know, a are banning

(45:29):
and all that, and you know you'll see some of
like the the groups, like you know, every town make
that their focus, you know, to get rid of a
RS or what they will call weapons of war. Um.
But don't be fooled that, you know, if they were
to achieve that and it was banned, they don't just
pack up their bags, send everybody home and say our
jobs are done, we can all retire. Now. They moved

(45:50):
to the next target. I think it happens the same
way with you know, with hunting. You look at the
most charismatic um sway opinion without science, and then move
on to the next thing. Yeah, And we talked about
this show when I first got recording this show and
thought about what do I want to do, And a
big part of it was wanted to kind of kicking
the door on some of the dogmas and things in

(46:11):
the hunting space that I just wanted to see. Is
that true? I'm being told that it's this way, right,
I'm being told that this is how, this is what
my belief should be as I become, you know, a
more prominent member of the hunting organized community. So I
just want to look at these issues, and I'm telling
you what you're saying, we will look at it. We've
talked to anti hunters, We've looked at legislation. UH. This

(46:35):
California bear band, as I told people a couple of
weeks ago with Clay, is really an amalgam of all
of these um ideological and political and societal things kind
of mashed together, right. And we've talked to anti hunters
on this show. We've talked to vegans. We've examined kind
of the precedent setting that goes on in UH in
a judicial and legal way with with anti hunting legislation

(46:59):
or legislation to ban hunting or stop hunting or use
the Endangered Species Act in such a way. And we've
looked at that with a critical eye, not only on
folks what you might call anti hunters, but in the
hunting community itself to say, is this, you know, as
we look at this, is this guard the gate slippery
slope mentality? Because that stand up UM, and I think

(47:22):
I think it does stand up for firearms, and I
think it does stand up for what we're talking about
with California bear bands and UM any other type of
hunting legislation ban around the country, at least as it
currently sits. I mean, most of the examples of of
hunting bands in the United States are for predators, namely bears,
mountain lions, coyotes, things, things of that nature. So I

(47:45):
guess that gets us to something I wanted to talk about.
Can you kind of give people an idea, at least
from your perspective, of the dividing line between it's, you know,
it's okay to hunt animals we eat, and we want
to ban the hunting of animals we maybe don't eat,
because that's really the predator hunting, you know line of

(48:07):
Demarcasian isn't it's it's definitely posed that way, and I
don't know that it's always mutually exclusive to to separate
the two. UM. But that also just doesn't look at
the conservation side and and the management side of of
these things. I mean, in the absence of folks going

(48:27):
out and hunting you know, different species, UM, how how
will they be managed. What will the cost be, Will
it drain you know funds. I mean there's a role
for the hunter um, you know, regardless of the end product,
to be the steward and to be the wildlife manager. Um.

(48:49):
But again I think it's kind of they're not mutually
exclusive from from one another. I mean, when you see
like them talk about bears as being you know, only
true fees and inheedible, you know that that's completely inaccurate
having eaten bear um. And I think you know that
gets left out of the narrative on purpose. If you
want to go over to Africa and talk about elephant

(49:12):
um and that that's only done as a trophy um,
whereas you know that that meat is actually consumed by
by folks UM. I think it's it's easy to leave
that piece out. It's easy to just focus in on
the on the trophy piece. Imagine you've seen pulling, you know,
we've seen polling. Where do you talk to the general

(49:32):
public and you use the term trophy? You know it
turns people off in wide numbers. UM. So I would
say on the other side, it's it's their effective messaging
when they only focus it in on that term. Yeah,
and leave out the rest of the story and make
it seem like it's the only you know, the reason
being used for the hunt. Yeah, and I do think

(49:54):
it it carries over to a R fifteens in a
in a very um logical way, because you're looking at
the creation of a term that denotes something that's that
simplifies an issue, and to note something that's scary, right,
so trophy or or really seemingly unethical or unnecessary. Right,

(50:14):
So you have trophy hunting, that's easy to explain that away,
and then you have assault weapons, it's easy to explain
that away. So it just creates these logical traps for
people that don't that aren't educated on particularly those two things.
And so um, it's hard for us and don't know
to ask, you know, like the follow up questions. You know,

(50:37):
if the conversation just focused on elephant being killed by
a blood lusting you know, guy from from America that's
only going to mount it on his wall, it leaves
out the whole conversation about where the proceeds and the
profits went from from that hunt to the community to livelihoods.
It totally shows their voice had and it's more convenient,
you know, the way that we digest messaging. Now mean

(51:00):
it's a simpler story that can be spread around faster. Yeah,
you simplify that narrative that makes it makes a whole
lot of difference. Um, we called that. We were talking
about that the other last couple of weeks about it's
it's really like a populous high ground. Like you know,
if people that are trying to ban the things that
that we love to do, um, especially even in the

(51:21):
guard the gate sense, but overall really have the populace
high ground because they can just ask what is seemingly
for most normal folks. Now I'm not talking anti hunters.
I'm talking non hunters that live in urban settings or
non hunters that just don't have the experience and knowledge
of what it takes to conserve wildlife in this country,
all the intricacies. You could just ask them why would

(51:43):
you hunt a bear? Why would you own an a
R fifteen? And they'll go, I don't know. Good point.
And so it can be that simple. And so you're
so you guys are advocating for this, how have you
seen this manifested? And I think this is important in
legislation like SP two fifty two California we've went over that,
but are there other examples that you've seen that really

(52:06):
you know, put a finer point on how this makes
its way into the legal battles. Yeah, I mean I
think you can just look across the board at at predators.
I mean, if you were to look at you know, wolves, UM,
that's always spurred you know, different different ways of antis,
you know, pushing their ways. I mean, if we look
at Colorado and the ballot initiative with introduction there, UM,

(52:29):
the slew of lawsuits I think there's three right now
that are you know out in the Northern District of
California challenging the Fish and Wildlife Services delisting UM. You know,
those are all done on grounds that there's injury you
know to the plaintiffs, UM, saying that you know, hunting
wipes out you know, than being in the wild. It

(52:50):
doesn't give any respect to to to the management tool
of the fact that you know, in the number of
areas there's growing you know, human animal conflict going on. UM.
Then at an international level, you know we see it
with with trophy bands, UM, with with the mechanism of
of importation. You know that's happening right now with Ottawa

(53:13):
and Canada in the UK UM parliament there, UM, in
Brussels with the EU. UM, we're bound to see it
again in d c UH. There's a big fight on
that in California of course UM last session. UM. But
that's in the same vein as a shutting down bear hunting.
I mean, they don't tell the full story about a

(53:34):
trophy ban is not going to stop hunting overseas because
there's no jurisdiction over that from the US. UM, but
it will shut down the folks that are going over
there and taking the hunts. UM being managers, providing you know,
money and incentives to the communities to protect this species
and manage them. UM. And that's just kind of over
the last year since I've been on board, really just

(53:57):
been popping up, especially UM with with with COVID Night
Team and health issues there. You see a number of
animal health builds across the planet that are kind of
just slipping in the trophy language because it's it's easy
to just tuck in there and and they make their
argument for it. But yeah, I said, I really do.

(54:17):
I mean, I want to pose something to you know.
This is not something we've done on the podcast so UM,
it's you know, this is something that I want to
try to pose both sides of what I'm hearing and
really kind of both sides that I see with trophy
hunting and see where we you know, where you would
take it or how you think se I would manage
this conversation if that's cool and and sure part of

(54:39):
part of this is the International Union for the Conservation
of Nature. Now can you can you explain to people
what that is just from your perspective, you know, what's
the definition of the eye you see in in terms
of its functional you know purpose? Yeah, i u c
N is an overwriting international body of scientists. UM. You
know that crosses the whole gamut of conservation UM. But

(55:03):
it's really there that you know, you'll have UM joint
statements put out by scientists UM that will give credence
and credit to the role that hunting plays UM for
managing of different species. They have you know, there's annual
bi annual UM Congress. It's gonna they don't have their

(55:24):
meeting here and Marseilles, France in September that was delayed
from last year. UM. But really, when you're talking about
the facts and science UM at an international level. Always
point to the folks that i U see in because
they've been clearly on the record in support of hunting
as a management tool. They have, and that's to me.

(55:44):
Anytime we get into this argument, a lot of times,
it becomes an ideological ideological argument, right. It becomes I
I like this and you don't. I think this isthal
and you don't. So it becomes a personal preference thing.
But then when we get down to wildlife management and
biology and science and how do we really make this work?
You drill down to the i U c N and

(56:05):
there in their position on on trophy hunting specifically, and
some other folks have called this community based conservation. That's
kind of connective tissue to that. If you don't mind,
I'm gonna read something from a paper that they put out,
a briefing paper they put out Informing Decisions on trophy hunting.
It's a little bit long, but I think it kind
of encapsulates a big part of this. It says trophy

(56:28):
hunting is hunting of animals with specific desired characteristics, such
as large antlers and overlaps with widely practiced hunting for meat.
It is clear that there have been and continued to
be cases of poorly conducted and poorly regulated hunting. While
Cecil the line is perhaps the most highly publicized controversial case,
there are examples of weak governance, corruption, lack of transparency,

(56:50):
excessive quotas, illegal hunting, poor monitoring, and other problems in
a number of countries. This poor practice requires urgent action
and reform. However, legal, well regulated trophy hunting programs can
and do play an important role in delivering benefits for
wildlife conservation and for the livelihoods and well beings of

(57:11):
indigenous local communities living with wildlife habitat loss and degradation
is a primary driver of declines and populations of terrestrial species.
Demographic change and corresponding demands for land for development are
increasing in biodiversity rich parts of the globe, exacerbating this
pressure on wildlife and making the need for viable conservation

(57:33):
incentives more urgent. And obviously that's a couple of paragraphs
in a very long paper, but I think it sets
up kind of the strong Man theory of how Cecil
a lion affects trophy hunting but doesn't define it, and
also at the same time puts at the back of
science and data and really a lot of some of

(57:53):
this is social science, to be sure, but science and data.
The fact that trophy hunting at this moment in time
brings a value that can be seen, observed and studied
and then reported back on by the i U c N,
which is a group of scientists. Is that whole track.
I mean, that's trying to set up like here is

(58:14):
a really hard to argue with data set, set of facts,
set of opinions that um, we should all really call
to more often. I think yeah, And I mean I
don't mean to dumb it down, but you know, they
they cover the full picture. I mean, there's gonna be
bad actors, right, those need to be police and corrected.
But if you're gonna look at the folks that are

(58:35):
doing it right, it goes under the model of if
it pays, it stays. I mean that's kind of shortening
what they're saying. But if there's a value added to
to the to the animal, then they're going to maintain it,
keep the population healthy and in place, rather than turning
to other alternatives like you know, just mowing it all
down and developing over it, which you're never gonna get

(58:55):
that habit to a back. But yeah, I mean that's
that's the science. Are you know, they're they're they're not
trying to give it one way or another. They call
balls and strikes, and I mean that's are probably our
most pointed to statement. Um when when defending you know,
what we're called trophy hunting, Um is what I you
see in has to say there, Yeah that you know

(59:18):
it says at the end of it, it says, if
decisions to ban or restrict trophy hunting are taken, there
is a need to identify and implement in advance viable alternative,
long term sources of livelihood support and conservation incentives. That
you could take that paragraph and just just drop it
in California and dropping into Senate Bill to fifty two, right,

(59:39):
I mean you could, I mean literally anywhere people are
arguing against trophy hunting, you could say, hey, what's your
what's your viable alternative here? Yeah? And um, I mean
that Steven, I don't think anywhere in those two paragraphs
that to say that it's location specific, right, So it
is cut and paste into any fight that's going on

(01:00:00):
in this in this realm Okay. So that's the I
think that's the strongest argument for tuffy hunting and conservation
based community hunting and an international and an international sense
really because we have the North American model wildlife conservation,
we have the American system of conservation funding, we have
you know, systems in place that aren't necessarily in place

(01:00:22):
in other parts of the world. Sure. Yeah, I think
a lot of folks can take that for granted, right
and not realized that it is unique US. I mean,
it is one of our greatest exports. Also, I mean
other countries are hipped to it and I want to
put it in place, but we're also unique just in
how egalitarian you know, hunting is the United States, which
I always have constantly a constant reminder on it, you know,

(01:00:44):
whant to talk to our friends over in Europe. I mean,
in no other place is it is it really across
the board middle class that gets out and makes up
the bulk of hunting. If you go over sees it's
either you know, sustenance or just leisure activity with nothing
in between. Really makes it unique for us. So we

(01:01:10):
have our North American model of wildlife conservation. And we've
had Shane Mahoney on on this program and he works
with the i U C N and and was one
of the early authors and marketers of this model. And
and him and I have talked about this at length
at bars, at actually at the sci Show and Marino
many times we are, yeah, we often get drunk. And

(01:01:34):
one time him myself, Keith Balford who's been on the show,
who now works for m Wild Chief Foundation, and and
Shane got drunk and talked about this concept. Uh. I
don't know how long because I was drunk, but it was.
It was a long time. And we solve the world's
problems as we tend to do in that state. So
we have our model of conservation. It has a value base,

(01:01:57):
you know, I would say, an underlying base of value
value these animals, uh, in a in an economic sense,
in a social sense. You know the similarities between us
and anti hunters. I think as always that we both
want these animals around. We both you know, we're going
at it in a different angle, but we both want
these animals around different roads to get there, but angle.

(01:02:17):
And so now we have we'll find the number, let's
just call it ten thousand. Knowing that I that's not
an updated number that I know of. We have ten
thousand international hunters. Basically funding in some parts of Africa
and other parts of the country. Basically are other parts
of the world funding conservation, you know, basically international money

(01:02:40):
flowing in for conservation that is supporting really good work.
My my worry is is that just doesn't seem sustainable
and it's not if if we had to start today,
that's not the way we would set it up in
many of these countries. We would say, hey, take our model,
this is the way we do it now. I understand

(01:03:03):
that there are different economic and social factors and you know,
social political factors. I mean, there's there's a million different
things that wouldn't allow us if we started today to
apply our North American model the wildlife conservation to say
South Africa or Namibia or something like that. But Um,

(01:03:24):
something I've thought of and, like I said, discussed critically
with these guys, is we this this this idea that
international funding is really driving conservation work on the ground
in an entirely different continent. Um is worrisome and maybe
at some point not as sustainable as we we wanted
to be. You thought about that? Is that something that
you guys talk about at all? Yeah? I mean, I

(01:03:45):
think it's constantly discussed too, is you know, how do
they diversify, you know, and have other streams you know,
I mean like you see her right now at the
pinch point from just having travel shut down. That's just crippling. Um.
It's just like having that you know, your your eggs
in one basket. UM. But I've yet to see any

(01:04:05):
proposal for replacement on you know, that model of of
having the Hunter. I mean you see the other side
talk about doing photo tourism, you know, photo safaris in
its place. Um. Those are those are a great and
well and and doable on certain land like some of
the national parks, but not out in the bush, not

(01:04:26):
when you get really rural. I mean, the folks that
are going out there, are the folks that are are
looking for adventure, are willing to pay you know, top
dollar you know what what what's like a mortgage on
their home for for a lot of folks, Um, in
order to you know, sleep on the ground, to get
bit by some of the biggest bugs on the plant. UM.
I don't don't know what else is in place to

(01:04:47):
replace that. UM. And I don't know that that that
it's you know, not not sustainable. Um, you know, I'd
still see the same folks um with their consett coming
over to the US to sell their hunts. Still telling
folks you know after a couple of days, you know,
say at our convention that they're sold out and fully booked.

(01:05:09):
Um when when when when businesses open and well you
know they're doing well. Um. But yeah, of course it's
always you know, anytime something is there's only one means
of revenue, you know, for for for somebody. I mean
you've got to look at how to diversify. I mean
it's the same thing with you know, the model for
endng O is all focused on you know, raising money

(01:05:30):
off of banquets. You know, take that away. We're all
you know, experiencing that. Now you know, what are the
ways are there to diversify? Yeah? No, I mean if
you talk about sustainability, especially if economically boy covid has
put us all in that mindset like how do we
have to adapt now that we don't have what we've
relied upon. But it's also it's it's something too that

(01:05:52):
we've talked about forever. Right, That's another thing you probably
go and get drunk at like DSc or shot show
or s c I with your friends you're talking about that,
They're like, hey, like, this isn't the model that's gonna
last forever. I've seem like, is it? Like Andy mcken, like,
you know, right about it, and he's got great points,
but we'd always put it on the back burners, like yeah,
we'll get to that after we get through our banquet

(01:06:13):
season this year, you know, and then next thing you know,
it's the banquet season again. But now I mean looking
for real solutions, right yeah, yeah, I mean we've talked
to folks at n WTF recently. I mean, anybody that
had a real strong and then and that is the
core of UM, the conservation space and how we gained
members and how we get funding, and that is you know, listen,

(01:06:35):
I I attended some stuff on the Zoom Wild Sheep
Convention and it was that it was okay, but it
wasn't nearly as cool as being in you know, in
reno UM and going to the less than one banquet
or being in at Shao or being at the SCI
convention or whatever it might be. No, I know, I mean,
we all missed that and we're gonna want it back.

(01:06:56):
But like cheap week. I mean incredible zoom standards, right,
I mean, nothing's going to replace it. And of course,
like I don't want to speak for cheap in any way,
but I'm sure that you know they understand in person
is as good as it comes. But they did that,
did it as good a job as you possibly can do,
um in the absence of in person. But just just
missing it, like we're joking about when we got on

(01:07:17):
about you know, not having the crud right now shot
show um, Yeah, yeah, I don't miss the shot show
flew everybody getting And I now that we're in a pandemic,
I think back at how PR companies just to hand
out little like sick bags with vitamin C backets and
bottles of water, and I think, man, yeah, at the

(01:07:38):
moment in time where we can make fun of each
other for passing along viruses, maybe has gone. Yeah we
could make light of passing viruses to each other willingly
in Las Vegas? Is it that might be gone, that
sensibility might have died. You're gonna have to put those
joke books away for a little bit, Yeah, just for
a little bit, well to get about this eventually, but yeah,

(01:08:04):
as we do everything, yeah, yeah, I appreciate your your
comment there about sustainability and what it does, because I
think that's really what I'm just want. I want folks
who don't really understand trophy hunting to start having this
dualistic or you know, like look at this because it
isn't perfect, but it is what we have and it

(01:08:24):
is working. I mean, if you look at the numbers,
and again I don't have this in front of you,
but I know this to be true. If you look
at the numbers of wild wildlife in Africa, planes Game,
the Big Five, all the things we talked about, you
look at the numbers of wildlife pre concession. At some
point in the seventies, I think they started concessions and
concessions correct if I'm wrong, But concessions are just a

(01:08:47):
bunch of properties getting together saying we're gonna put a
fence up around the outside of all our properties, or
we're gonna come together and get sort of wildlife that way.
The number of the popular animal populations prior to concessions
and after concessions were popularized is ridiculous. It's like five x.
I mean, right now, Namibia has the biggest population of

(01:09:10):
animals that they've had in a hundred years. It's like
it's just it's the science again, it's it's the head count.
I mean, they're just losing their minds over and not
being able to manage their own their own wildlife. Yeah,
and that's you know, so it's it's such a different
we get wrapped up in really how different it is, um,
how different it is than what we do here. But

(01:09:32):
it is. I mean they're there's I've hunted in Africa. Um,
it feels a lot like Texas and where I was
at least in Namibia. Um. And like I said, it's
a big place. So we're not gonna generalize. But that's
the only thing I left out too, is like I mean,
if you look at the like the voices to the
folks that live in Africa, I mean they're asking for

(01:09:54):
you know, the international hunting to be kept in place,
to be supported, to allow it to go over because
it's their resources. It's how they want to manage it.
So again, I mean I would I would look at
what they're asking for. You know, they're not asking for
other alternatives to it. That's true. Yeah. No, my dad
hunted there recently and he called me after and said
you know, his guide and pH over there were so

(01:10:18):
invested in the business of hunting, and so and and
and we're so passionate about what it brought to their
lives that you just can't ignore it. You can't ignore it,
you know, as much as I even even personally sometimes
like that's not really my thing. You can't ignore the realities.
And so I want folks that listen to this podcast
if you're whether you're you've thought about this critically or

(01:10:40):
you haven't, to understand that it is complex. Um. But
when in my opinion, and you know, I definitely want
to hear kind of how you boil it down your
own head, Ben, But in my opinion, it is how
I've we've tried to set it up here, which is
it's working, it's viable, it's supported by science and data.
But we have to start looking at how to make

(01:11:02):
it sustainable because it is so varied from the model
that we have in this country. And so that's that's
where my head goes. But again, all yeah, I do
start reading a little I U. C. In literature, quickly
find yourself pretty passionate about you know what you guys
do you know, I'm also thinking of definitely the business
standpoint with like the concession owners over there. I mean

(01:11:26):
it's taken a lot of years in like trial and
error for them to get some of these businesses stood
up to be something you know that's actually providing the
conservation benefits and being sustainable. UM. They had to make
a hard choice on their land about how they were
going to be able to you know feed themselves UM.
And a lot of folks, you know, whether it's over
in the Maybea or Zambia started off trying to raise

(01:11:48):
cattle UM and it wasn't feasible on some of the land. UM.
So they found you know, it was easier for them
to be able to raise you know UM different you
know game species UM, and worked on that, set up
a business, put in the hard work, they've invested in it,
and they want to you know, keep that model going
because it's it's it's what they've based on the livelihoods

(01:12:09):
off of UM. So if if they're following the rules
and it's following what the I U N Statement is,
I don't see why we would have any place to
you know, interfere with that. Yeah, that's kind of where
I land right now. You know, if somebody comes up,
somebody walks in the door with you know, a full,
fully thought out photosafari model. I mean I laughed, because

(01:12:29):
it's just it's not gonna happen that that matches the
funding and the flexibility of right now, what is trophy hunting? Essentially,
this is what we'll call it. UM, bring it, and
we're running through Dillis Row and Shane Mahoney and everybody
at the i u c N see what they have
to say about it. UM, let them be like you said,

(01:12:49):
let them call balls and strikes right now there, they're
pretty firm on this. UM, it'll be a nice scientific
shark tank episode. UM. I don't want to get too
far going here without really talking about you and I
talked about this, UM, and I've talked about this with
Brian Lyn from Supports to Alliance on the show a

(01:13:11):
few times when we if we return a minute to
the California sent a bill to fifty two and and
really this this goes along many other battles within the
you know, the legal world, legislative world. We saw it
with the Greater Yelstone ecosystem, Grizzly bear hunt, Wyoming. UM,
We've seen in other places talk about how UM a

(01:13:33):
group like h s U s WHU made society the
United States works UM in setting legal precedents with bills
like SP two fifty two, UM to kind of you
to work at a slow grind at hunting rights or
hunting you know, privileges. However, we'll say but that there

(01:13:55):
there there has been a stated and then and sometimes
underlying strategy to that right. UM. So so just humane
society's general activity in the courts on on predator issues.
I mean it's basically seeing you know, e s a

(01:14:15):
as a place where you know, all species should permanently
be housed, UM, and using the courts to ensure that
that's the way it is, rather than seeing the es
as you know, a law that's there too, UM resuscitate
and bring back species that are that are in tough spots.
So you know, like the ultimate goal for say, wolves

(01:14:38):
is to have them stay on that list in perpetuity
with federal management in place rather than the states managing. UM.
You'd see that as well with bears and you know,
different populations. I mean that's another pieces, you know, breaking
it into different populations and you know, saying that there's
no longer a species in this portion of range country three. Um,

(01:15:01):
so they must be you know, on the brink, and
it needs to be shut down across the lower forty. Um.
That's the sort of fight that we see humane society
bringing across you know, of course, across the country. Well,
where do we go from here? Now that we kind
of there's the article in you guys website about kind

(01:15:22):
of the digital the the growing digital fight on legislation
like this, how do you you know, because how do
you handicap what happened in California's We haven't talked about it.
We had I probably told you had this great idea
to buy a billboard and downtown at least, and I
was like, I was like shedding a tears, Like this
beautiful idea is never gonna come to to act. But

(01:15:43):
I mean obviously there's gonna be an opportunity of yeah,
of course, but uh yeah, I was. I was shocked,
you know, just by how quickly it happened. I mean,
the change dot org petition, um folks on it. I
think that that made made a huge prints there for
for the bill being pulled. I think a number of
factors are attributed to it. I think Governor Newsome's probably

(01:16:07):
primarily focused on recall and all those things, but I
think it makes a big difference. I mean, that's a
big thing that I've really focused on since coming over
to s C, I is, you know, standing up our
our grassroots abilities. Also, you know, the chance to give
UM hunters of voice. I mean, we use our own
platform called the Hunter Action Advocacy Center UM, you know,

(01:16:29):
where where we'll engage our members to speak up when
ween aer and introduced to something bad, and get folks
educated and not give folks, you know, a free pass,
or just make damn sure that every legislator placing the
vote knows what they're actually voting for UM. And I
think you know, you know, over the last year, so
especially with folk Fuel more focused on you know, their

(01:16:51):
digital tool kit, we've seen all the different NGOs really
stand up that same sort of presence, which is awesome.
And that's like right now we're looking at a proposed
comment period on these cottonwood cases, which is you know,
basically like redundant process in place for making forest management

(01:17:12):
decisions to the point where all the resources are going
to it and forests are being managed and wildfires and
sue and you know, um infections and everything. UM. So
we're we're doing a comment period there on a on
a rule to streamline it UM and we've gotten you know,
eleven hundred of our members so far to send comments

(01:17:33):
directly to you know, Fish and Wildlife Service. We're working
with the broader coalition with all of our friends, whether
it's you know, Rockingnut and elk or or Sheep or
or or any of the other groups who also have
their own systems in place, and they're also doing it
that same way. So you add on that chorus of
folks speaking up and we're not really looking like the
minority on these issues anymore, but rather, you know, a

(01:17:56):
big majority. So yeah, I mean, as soon as I
heard it, you know, I, like I said, I was disappointed.
I was so happy with my idea, so proud of
myself for the billboard that I was going to create.
It was a little bit sad at first, I'm like,
and then I started to think, how did we how
do we handicap this? How is it possible to handicap

(01:18:17):
what really went into this decision? Because I called Cenator
Winner's office and talked to an intern and she just
read me the statement, which was, you know, based on
the urgent COVID nineteen concerns. And I asked her, I said,
I know you're an intern, but I still have to
ask you this question. Has COVID nineteen become more urgent
in the last ten days or however however long it

(01:18:39):
has been since this was introduced? And so I was
I'm assuming, you know, I don't know how to put
this as percentage, but there's a large percentage that was
was the outreach and outcry and all the things that
happened around um, social media and across the internet about this.
And then there was idea in California that the threshold

(01:19:03):
for dealing with that kind of backlash it's not real high.
You know, at this point, there's so many other things
to deal with. So I imagine that that there's a
there's some mix to that. But as you're just talking about,
we're looking at a future where there's a real power
in the hunting community. There's a real power in the
groups like yours and groups like RMYF and and b

(01:19:25):
h A like we can make a real impact here.
And that's the thing that I leave this whole sp
two two situations. The saga if it as you were
with that we can make if we all decide we
don't this, this is bullshit, We're not going to have it. Um,
we can we can make change. You know, we can

(01:19:46):
push back on some of this legislation. Absolutely, I mean
a lot goes into you know, Senator we are making
his final decision. But you can't have the absence of
just the people, you know speaking up. Um, that's just
a critical piece that can't be missing. Because I mean,
also just don't be fooled that, you know, the other side,

(01:20:08):
the folks that want the bears to be banned, they
also have you know, the ability to flip a switch
and have people come in in. Um, they've been doing
it longer than than I think hunters have. Um, we're
still playing catch up in that regard. I mean, I
don't have all the details in front of me, but
I remember looking at I think there was there was
some sort of rule process going through Fish and Wildlife

(01:20:29):
on polar bears, and that got caught up in like TikTok,
which suddenly drove a campaign. But they got two million
plus comments in on this polar bear issue. I mean,
that's just that's a lot more than right. I mean,
I mean there's a lot going on there that I mean,

(01:20:51):
they have the ability to turn it on. So again,
a lot goes into what happened. Maybe it was COVID
became more important for today's doubt it, but maybe there was.
But you can't have the absence of those plus folks
speaking up and letting you know that it's not an unchecked,
one sided decision. Yeah, you're And that's what we've really
seen in the past. There's always been this, like I said,

(01:21:15):
populous high ground where the louder voice and the more
activism has always fallen on folks who are in the
animal rights community or the anti hunting community. That's just
been traditionally how it's gone. They've been more dedicated, smarter, UM,
not only with legislation, but how they gained attention to
these issues. And we've kind of hunting community has been

(01:21:38):
very reactionary throughout time. UM, and I think we're still
reactionary in many ways, UM, and so we I had
guys from Sports's Alliance texting me. Brian Lynde was texting me, UM,
a bunch of anti trapping legislation that's floating around, UM
in places like New Mexico. So you know, those things
happen in a vacuum, and if we're if if we're

(01:22:01):
not paying attention to them, Whether or not you believe
in guard the gate or the celebrating slope fallacy, it
doesn't really matter, um, just just having a place like
SEI or UM and these other groups we've mentioned to
go and learn about these things as important as hell.
So go sign up, everybody. Do you do it now?

(01:22:21):
Party club dot org? What are you waiting for? What
are you waiting for? Do you? Um? I guess we
could close by like a little bit more of a
lighthearted topic or something that to get people. Do you um?
Have you ever traveled? You travel internationally? Hunted in Africa?
Hunted up places that you can, you know, tell personal stories.

(01:22:42):
I have not hunted in Africa yet. Um. That was
meant to happen in so I probably wanted to talk
about something a little bit brighter right now then. But
I appreciate that I screwed it. That was totally I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I thought I told you this offline. I

(01:23:03):
brought up a bad subject. The one hunt that I
bought a s C. I was actually at the d
c chapter banquet was dove hunt in Argentina that I
took as a cast and blast for a golden Dorado
and and dove. UM. So that was an awesome trip.
That was my my one international trip. I grew up
living in Brazil and Chile. No real hunting in Brazil,

(01:23:25):
none really at all. UM and Chili, I just I
didn't have I didn't do when I was when I
was a kid down there. But I've done a lot
of travel around the States. UM love waterfowl. UMM has
a place out of the Eastern Shore. So I get
out there a bunch and make a point, you know,
after election season, UM to get down to Louisiana and

(01:23:47):
go out for respects, nothing but love for him. And
I've got a bunch of family in Texas, so we'll
get for for for white tail and for pigs out
that way. Argentina is one of the places I've not been,
but I was just had a little get together with
U editor of Peterson Sonny Mike Scoby, I guess former

(01:24:08):
editor now but he still works for that company. And
a guy who've had on this show before Duchon. It's
Metana who's a photographer and and they've been to Argentina
a bunch, and hearing them talk about it, he's just
given me a full drive to get down there. It's awesome.
I just want to see that country. Yeah, I love it. Um.

(01:24:29):
I really loved getting out on the on the Parana
River for Golden Dorado. That was. I went down for
the Dove, but you know, I'd go back for the
Dorado big time. That was. It's an awesome fish, tough mouth,
spicer hook out, you know, it's yeah, just gorgeous. Um.
But yeah, great people down there, and the foods are

(01:24:50):
also incredible. I mean they've they've mastered the flame, They've
got the good beef. Oh man. Yeah. Dushan he lives
across the river from He does in a pada every year,
which is a traditional way to think, and he cooks
up a goat. The slaughters and cooks up a goat
and it's just it's something I look forward to every year. Um,
just because he brings that Argentinian culture. He's been down

(01:25:13):
there so many times. He's bringing it to Montana, which
I felt was rare when I met him and we
talked about it, and um, you know that's man. Now,
this is it was supposed to be uplifting, but this
is now depressing. But we can't go this is now
un depressed. I can't go any of these cool places.
Probably not one I've been, dude, I've been salivating over.

(01:25:36):
I've been putting together the THHC studio at my house
and I've been hanging up a bunch of pictures that
I really like from things that have done in the past,
and man, a lot of them are from New Zealand.
Place like New Zealand and what do you do in
New Zealand. Well, I mean I've been there. I think
I've been there three or four times. But we gave
away a New Zealand hunt first, like, gave away a

(01:25:57):
New Zealand hunt with me that we were supposed to
go on in. It got canceled and I haven't thought
much about because I just assume we're gonna just pick
it up whenever we're allowed to go. Um. So that's
kind of another depressing note. But I've I've gone over
there and done public land tar Shammy. Um yeah, I've

(01:26:17):
done helicopter fly ins for for Shammy on in just
some of the craziest places on the coast that you
can ever imagine have you followed our our pieces on
a tar wars what's going on there? I have, In fact,
I owe that the listeners of this program a little
update on that because we've talked about UM last year,

(01:26:37):
we talked about just not wanting to jump into advocacy
on that because I just don't understand it. Um. I
understand the general principles at play, but I just you know,
didn't really get too deep into um, the legislation that
was going on last year and the calling that's been
going on. I mean, I've been to places in New
Zealand where the guides will tell you or locals will

(01:26:59):
tell you there used to be her up on that
mountain they shot in the helicopter for last year. So
I've experienced it personally where places I've been and gone
back to now just don't have animals anymore because they've
been aerial gunned to extinction in certain pockets over there.
So was update people on on tar wars as you
call Yeah, I mean, like you said, they cranked up there.

(01:27:24):
I guess they call it eradication plan. Um. They you
know it was Eugenie Stage was the was the Green Party. Um,
she's from the Green Party, but they had a but
a coalition government, so even though Labor was in charge there,
she was a Green in charge of their Department of Conservation.

(01:27:45):
Her past life was it was really like a lobbyist
or you know, UM policy employee for their Remane Society
over New Zealand. She's been on the record for twenty
plus years saying her plan was to bring New Zealand
back to how it was before man ever set foot there,
you know, basically give rid of people and any species

(01:28:08):
that was introduced, you know, any mammal really, I mean
that's what all was introduced. UM. So she had been
you know, I had been on the record there. So
in the the twilight of her her tenure UM she
went full bore on eradicating, you know, really ratcheting up
UM aerial hunting, you know, management of UM of bulls. UM.

(01:28:30):
So they got those numbers in place, they didn't UM,
they didn't confer at all with the sportsmans community, even
though that was UM you know in their management plan
that there had to be consultation. They ended up putting
a hold on it. UM took a pause, consulted, basically
didn't take any recommendations from Sportsmen ended up going back
out and doing some more hours. M Fortunately UM an

(01:28:54):
election took place there, you know, in September early October,
where Labor had a sweeping victory. UM didn't need to
rely on a coalition government anymore, so no longer had
a place for Eugenie Sage. UM. So now Labor is
in place UM at d o C. There's been a
lot of quiet silence around the issue. UM those high

(01:29:17):
levels of of management hours aren't occurring anymore right now,
so it's given a breath of fresh air. I know
all of our our partners and our chapter over in
New Zealand very optimistic, UM, you know, whereas they really
felt silenced, shut out of the process and defeated rightfully,
so at least now or you know, looking forward to

(01:29:39):
having more conversations and putting their side across. And the
whole time this was happening from their Department of Conservation,
the Prime Minister and everybody UM from Labor was was
quiet on it, knowing not to step into the phrase.
So it was really that Green Party push me. It's
like a paradox, it's one of the ultimate have just

(01:30:01):
been one big paradox in and of itself. But when
I think of the green environmentalist party aerial gunning animals,
I don't. I'm like, I don't know, guys, that doesn't
seem very environmentally sound to me. I've always wondered about
even when I've been down there, I've always wondered out loud,
and I always feel like it's kind of not my

(01:30:22):
place too to have a real intense opinion other than
I really like going over there, and I really enjoy
those animals in the in those habitats. Um. Why is
it a lot of islands, you know, like New Zealand
and semi close ecosystems. A lot of them have hawaiis
like this, a lot of introduced non native you could

(01:30:44):
call them invasive, depending on how you want to define
things species um. And when they proliferate to any to
the extent that a tar and a shammy might, and
a an economy builds around them and tourism builds around them,
why then wouldn't you accept them as as part of
what we might just say is the modern ecosystem, the

(01:31:05):
human you know, directed ecosystem that now exists there. What
is the obsession with with going back in time to
some deterministic point and saying this is how it should
be now because it was this way because you know,
environments are ever changing. Nature is change. So I just
I just never understood that. I don't understand how something

(01:31:26):
like that could result in, you know, the mass killing
and not utilizing by it. It's not like they scoop
up these tar and shamy off the top of the
mountains with a helicopter and take them back and serve
them to to needing New Zealanders. They leave them away,
they leave them way. And we talked about this, we
talked about this a little bit last week on the
show with aphis Um in the United States and and

(01:31:48):
how that is, how that works its way into this conversation.
But I've never have you talked to anybody that allowed
you to really understand you know this this nay to
visit my guess or or the way that this rolls
out because I've seen it in other places. Um yeah,
I mean we've seen we've seen it in the in

(01:32:09):
the US with you know, some National park superintendents, you know,
wanting to shock the water to take it back to
where it was. Um, I'll never understand it. I mean,
it does seem like a you know, very obvious paradox
of wiping out and killing a species. You know, if
you're in an anti hunting group, it happened. You put

(01:32:35):
it too. It's like this idealized concept of before you
know anything was introduced, everything was much better. I mean,
I guess they'll they'll point to maybe something that you know,
the tar like to to consume or eat being wiped
out because of it. Um. That's it, right, and that

(01:32:57):
happened with with sheep and goats and in Washington here.
You know, I guess there's an argument to say, like
if the presence of a non native species is really
impacting a native one, But then you get into like
what's native and non native? How do we how far
do we go back? How do we determine these things?
It sounds like we're we're talking about immigration, but yeah,

(01:33:21):
it's I mean, there's huge parallels to this, but this
is one of those. This is this issue is interesting
to me. We talked about UM with Pete Munich from
the Racking Mound Goodalins. We talked about this last year
too on this show a little bit, and it is
one of the great paradoxes that tends to happen, but
it's more intense I think in New Zealand because they
they are the aerial gunning is just without it's like

(01:33:43):
almost part of the culture now over there. Um And
so I'm glad you brought a little bit of shed
a little bit of light into that. You do you
feel like the future there's more fights in the future
or do you see it? You know, because of that
political defeat, having a little bit more legs to keep
to keep the proclivity to aerial gun animals to extinction

(01:34:05):
out of the popular I don't think there's another like
person that could be in that Minister of d O
C position that was as anti tar as Ujimni Sage.
So with her being put to the side, I just
don't see it as rising to the same priority level.
I mean, obviously I could be be proven wrong, but

(01:34:26):
that having her removed from that seat was about as
good as it could have been for right now. I mean,
and now the work just needs to be done on
really opening up consultation and making sure that that isn't
just you know, thrown to by the wayside again. Yeah, yeah,
and it's I mean, I was I'm just looking here
I was reading a government document about the encyclopedia of

(01:34:47):
New Zealand mammals and it says deliberately introduced animals include wallaby,
oh possum, stout or stout, ferret, weasel, eight species of
d tar, shammy, rabbit, hair and hedgehog. So, um, that's

(01:35:08):
a lot. And so when when the bulk of your
the species running around on your island are introduced, when
does it change over to being, you know, a largely
native environment. I mean, how do you I just to
to weigh that out logically is mind boggling to me.

(01:35:29):
It just is. I mean again, at what point are
you like putting everybody back on a boat too and
saying all right, everybody, yeah, you're part of the invasive
problem too. Yeah. When we came over, we introduced those animals,
so we were the first animal, you know, to be
able to manipulate environment like that, and thus we did. Yeah.
And um, but you know, I will tell a brief

(01:35:52):
story about being on a sheep station over on the
South Island, New Zealand hunting fallow deer with actually with
Andrew McKean. You mentioned, um, we were over there hunting
this sheep station, and I mean falla deer everywhere. The
falla deer rutt is in incredible. They croak like some
kind of prehistoric frog the bucks do when they're chasing does.

(01:36:16):
And so this is, you know, it's kind of like
if you imagine the high desert of Nevada, kind of
rocky and arid. And so we're over there chasing these
fallow deer. We get a couple of bucks on the ground,
and one night we're driving out and we meet this guy,
the Rabbit Man. He looks like some sort of Mad
Max superhero. He's riding two stroke dirt bike. He's got

(01:36:41):
rabbit for I think he had rabbit fur handle covers.
He was wearing a leather jacket and a helmet with
a big spotlight on it. And his job was to
drive around every night and shoot rabbits because of the
the intense overpopulation of rabbits on that sheep stage and
across the island. He shot rabbits every night for about

(01:37:03):
eight hours, if I remember this correctly. He would drive
around with a twenty two and a shotgun and shoot
rabbits every night, and then he would go back and
log how many rabbits he's shot that night. In a
book and he had been doing that for over a decade.
And the guy had killed millions of rabbits on this
single sheep station. His full time job was to ride

(01:37:23):
around at night with a spotlight and shoot rabbits. I
mean I did, yet it didn't. And we we got
to have dinner with him and talk to him about
his life, and it just goes to show you, as
much as I say, it's just logically confusing what's going
on down there. It's just different than we have here.
Because if a guy like that can exist, a rabbit

(01:37:46):
killing superhero can exist down there, I don't know, uh,
if we can really draw a parallel, it's down under man,
it's upside down. Yeah, we saw we We talked seriously
about doing a documentary for a long time about this guy,
and you would be entertained. I hope he's still down
there doing It's been some years ago. I hope he's

(01:38:07):
down there, still still shooting rabbits every night. Because they
had they were telling us stories, or they would put
up picket fences too, you know, for sheep or whatever.
This is a huge sheep station. Station is just a ranch.
You know. They put up fences for paddocks for sheep,
and the rabbits would literally chew them down within days.

(01:38:27):
There's so many rabbits that they would they would choot
an entire fence down with big thick wooden posts, um
in days or weeks. And that's how many rabbits they
were dealing with. So um. We have a lot of
New Zealanders to listen to this show, and they're very
vocal and um, I'm sure they'll be excited to hear
us talents, some New Zealand stories and shine a light

(01:38:48):
on what they got going down there. I think they're
all gonna say, don't let your dream die either, make
this movie happen. The rabbit man, Yeah, I will, with
a serious face go to the head of SDI and
make a pit stressed to help you with don't let
don't let this dream die. I will not. I will not. Well,
that's a good place to end with that dream, because

(01:39:08):
we were just getting depressed that we can't go to
New Zealand, but we can still make a documentary straight.
We'll get that media exemption to go down there, get tested,
go down there and be real safe and make a
documentary from the loophole loop that's a real positive place
to end the COVID loophole to get us to New Zealand.
Me you the Rabbitman. It's gonna be a party. I

(01:39:30):
love it. Well, Ben, thanks for doing much, do you man? Um,
go and have a little go have a little Ben's
Chili Bowl for me next time you're down to d C.
If that's still a thing, If you can still do that,
can you still? Yeah? All right? You know, I'm driving
into the city tonight for dinner and I'll go by
Ben's to make sure it's it's still thriving. I'll take
a photo and send it over. Yeah. I get worried
about stuff like that in times of COVID. I don't

(01:39:52):
want to read some news story that Ben's Chili bowls
out of business. Yeah, I mean it's it's taking a
hit on a lot of the bars had character, you know. Um,
But what can we do? All right? Brother? I really
appreciate we're not gonna let that tre dive. The Rabbitman
documentary coming to a theater near you. Do. Thanks for
probably you and thanks for checking in with us and

(01:40:14):
working through the old trophy hunting and everything else. Yep,
anytime I appreciate it bad. Thanks for what you do,
all right, So that's not what I usually say. That's it.
That's all dude, dude, my mind is gone. Phil. Uh.

(01:40:36):
We just went hard in Alaska for three days and
I got no no offense to Alaska Airlines, but they
sure messed my day up yesterday. I was supposed to
get home here at about eleven PM and I didn't
get home until four in the morning. And it's been
uh interesting time nonetheless, but hopefully this uh this here

(01:40:58):
podcast was was listening double and apologies if I didn't
do a good job today, no excuses, but hey, listen,
you guys did a great job. There was an email
from a guy named Brett Brett are I said, I
wasn't gonna read anything, you know, podcasts, theme song related,

(01:41:18):
but I'm gonna read you some of what what Brett wrote.
He is entitled the Anthem of Occult Ready for it? Yeah,
I'm not gonna sing it, Phil, Okay, Okay, well that's good.
Don't ask me to sing it. Good first, okay, working
pick and shovel or pen in hand, we congregate and
now it's children of the land, mindful, focused and living

(01:41:41):
for the search dreaming of a fire with a salty Gilbert.
But ain't but ain't coming back till it's cold and late.
Taking it slow so we can shoot straight, shoot on straight,
guard the gate, shoot on straight, guided by the Eagle.

(01:42:02):
We're closing on the deer hunters to the core, despite
the engineer, where no one's too good and we're all
good enough. We clear our shotguns with a hearty huffy puff.
Ruled by the seasons is the woodsman's fate. Taking it
slow so we can shoot straight, shoot on straight. Mm hmmm,

(01:42:26):
guard the gate. Mm hmmm. It's a beautiful day. Guy.
That's pretty good. It's a good has made me laugh.
Well done. I feel like that's gonna a big part
of that's gonna make it into the Amalgamus theme song

(01:42:47):
of THHC going forward. So thank you to Brett for
that one that made me laugh. I needed a good
laugh because I'm doing this podcast with one eye open,
one eye closed. So Phil some other things that we
still need to figure out. But a lot of people
are writing in to say that they will help us

(01:43:07):
and video your Turkey hunt. We have so many people
that said that they would help you either film or
give up their property. What do you think it's moving
for sure? I mean, what do you think I mean,
do we invite someone to to to join in? We might? Well,
there's breaking news, breaking news this this guy writes in.

(01:43:31):
Derek writes in, hey Ben and Phil, I just listened
to your podcast with Janice from last week. Obviously, he said,
I always enjoy listening. I live in Marion and I
work in Kalispell. I heard that Phil's turkey hunt will
be outside of Whitefish, and I figured I'd say congrats,
and if you're interested, there is a bow Jangles in Kalispell.
Have a great week, proud cult member, Proud cult member, Derek.

(01:43:55):
So things are all coming together, man. Yeah, we can
get the air calls special at bow Jangles, take a nap,
get out in the field about eleven am, and go nuts.
So we just have to decide. I mean, we probably
could have about ten camera guys if we really wanted
to um, but we had a lot of decisions to
make and then in the weeks to come. But we're

(01:44:17):
getting there, man, Like I said, I was while I
was waiting to fly in the airport, I started buying
turkey licenses. Pretty soon. We gotta we gotta make that
happen for you, and then we gotta put some dates
on the books. But I'm thinking then, get me if
I'm wrong. I'm thinking first week of May. How do
you feel about first week of May. Let's let's let's

(01:44:40):
mark it down first week of May. You're in sure, right?
This is this is us promising to do this, so
first week in May, because when it's gonna happen first
week in May, Montana turkeys, Phil high fence turkey is
probably something really easy to really get that number up there.

(01:45:02):
So now you can all look forward to it's currently
the third week of February. All you gotta do is
sit down. If you're ever feeling feeling sad and you
need some motivation, just know that Phil will be hunting
turkeys the first week of May. Say by Phil Huffy puffy,
because I can't go a week without doing row oh

(01:45:26):
without ring out drinking

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 165: The Anthem of a Cult, Tahr Wars, and the Many Sides of Trophy Hunting with SCI's Ben Cassidy

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Ep. 165: The Anthem of a Cult, Tahr Wars, and the Many Sides of Trophy Hunting with SCI's Ben Cassidy

On Purpose with Jay Shetty