Ep. 174: Trek for Turkeys 2021, Thank You Dad, and the Desire to Possess Animals with Shane Mahoney

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Clean your Gun, Janable where the uncollective show Colin Hunters
New and all uncollective show with thanks or fakes and
opinions are subjective. You're listening to the collecting. Hey, everybody,

(00:28):
welcome to episode one seventy four where I am completely
and totally faking my enthusiasm because I am very, very tired,
but I am joined by Phil the engineer. Phil, how
are you, sir? I'm doing great. You said you're faking
your enthusiasm. I I honestly don't sense any enthusiasm, real
or fake. So you're doing a job. Oh I'm doing

(00:49):
a bad job. Well, I'm totally talking like this in
a very monotone way, so you do not hear the
pure desperation and vocal fry that's happening on my end
right now, because we are on day what Ford van falls?
And what day of the Turkey treck are we on?
I don't know what day it is and I definitely
can't count to ten at this point. What what day
are we on? It's a Monday, and oh, I don't

(01:16):
know twelve maybe ten could be anywhere between five and
twelve and three, and yeah, maybe we started we technically
started on the tenth and it is now. Uh, it's
a nine nine days on the Turkey Trek, nine days
of glorious, glorious turkey hunting. I am currently sitting in

(01:39):
an unknown town in Nebraska where we are on the
third whistle stop of the Turkey Trek one. I guess
we say truck for turkeys? Is that right? For truck
for turkeys? With First Light and nwt F where we
are trying to we're doing like a telethon in a
non live format to raise funds through memberships for n

(02:05):
w t F. We are nine days into that telethon. Uh,
no one has known it's going on to this point,
so it's a bit of a backwards move. But we
got four Van Fawson here who is the c are
of conservation at First Light, and he's gonna update us
on exactly what we need to do, and then we're
gonna tell you some stories for from our trip thus far.
And Phil, you all you really need to do is

(02:26):
sit back and get excited for your upcoming first ever
turkey hunt. Uh that's your only job herebody, Okay, all right,
I'll do it. Well, I'll make you proud. What I'd
like for you to do in the in the interim
is get up at three thirty in the morning and
drive around for an hour and a half and then
walk around in the woods for about an hour and

(02:48):
then go home. Just a practice for turkey hunting uh
here in a couple of weeks. But that sounds like
it would be a terrible training montage in a movie. Yes, yes,
I would like you to run across the beach with
a turkey decoy on your head, but please please Anyway,
Ford van Foss, before we get into any of the stories,
the laughs, the miss the mishaps from the Turkey tour,

(03:11):
tell people our content would have debuted yesterday, which is Monday.
This is Tuesday, um, but we have a bunch of
content coming out for a very important reason. If you
want to tell everybody exactly what's going on. Yeah, we're
just we're starting the documentation of aforementioned track for Turkeys
Monday on First Light's Instagram story. We'll be hitting post too,

(03:34):
but basically we'll be telling the story of the trip
uh whilst driving folks to sign up for NWTFUM for memberships.
We're trying to hit a thousand memberships by the end
of the month. That's sort of the goal here and
and to do so, we're ripping around the West, hitting
four different states, visiting some habitat projects, and killing turkeys.

(03:58):
We have done all of that UM this week and
last week, and we have roughly the rest of this
this week to go. We're in Nebraska, We're gonna be
in Wyoming visit a habitat project up there. We just
got done hunting some beautiful w m as in different
places in Nebraska where n WTF has supported and done

(04:18):
habitat work. I'll even work working with a guy named
Luke Becauzak. I always get everyone's last name wrong. That's
probably nowhere near how you say his last name, UM,
but Luke is NBTF Forrester. We've also been hanging out
with Jared mcjunkin, who works for the NBC on a
regional biologist level UM and really been learning about what

(04:38):
they do, learning about why it's important, and hunting some
of the places that that they've worked to help improve
in terms of habitat, especially UM in this area of
Nebraska and other areas of states that we've haunted. So
it's it's been cool to learn about not only UM,
you know turkey hunting out West in great detail. As
as we'll tell you some stories. It also what the

(05:00):
n WTF does so very seriously, as we talked about
conservation on this show, we have Shane Mahoney coming up,
the great and powerful Shane Mahoney coming up for a
good interview about some of these subjects and about what
conservation really means across the landscape of you know, as
as shame might put a human existence or human relationships wildlife. UM.

(05:21):
This is just one instance of UM an opportunity for
everybody out there to go to First Lights Instagram. You'll
see Instagram stories that started the yesterday that continue today,
and we'll go on throughout the week. UM of us
hunting forward. Myself, Jonah Bell and Max ben'z have been
filming us. We've had, as they aforementioned folks from dan WTF,

(05:45):
We've got Kevin Harlander, who, as I sit in a
hotel room, is out right now crawling around in the
snow trying to kill a turkey by himself. I might
add he's pretty hardcore. UM. But it's been a joint
effort between n WTF and First Light and Meat Eater
UM to kill some turkeys and also raise awareness for
the fact that memberships are down and banquets are not

(06:06):
as easy to put together for NBTF as they have
been in the past, and so this is all our
way to drive attention for that. And um, I think
it's uh, it's we're gonna talk about how it's gone.
But for what would you how would you handicap where
we are right now in our truck for turkeys? Give
you mean the update of of how things are going? Yeah, well,

(06:29):
you know, I think they're going really well given the
weather conditions that we have been dealt. Uh, it has
been wintry to say the least, I would say, and
snow and blow and cold and all that stuff is
not what you think about necessarily when it comes to
turkey hunting, and certainly not what you think about when
it comes to successful turkey hunting. So the fact that

(06:52):
we've killed seven I think, yeah, we'll call it. We
can call it eight because Luke four mention and Forester
from the NPTF shot one yesterday with us, So we'll
call it eight. Yeah, I think I think that sounds right.
So anyhow, all things considered, I mean, have we filled
every single tag we had. Uh no, but have we

(07:12):
filled some tags in some incredibly inclement conditions. Yes, so, yeah,
I can't complain, Man, I think it's coming off well. Yes, yeah,
we've learned. We've learned a ton about the n WTF
hanging out with guys like Jared mcjunkin, um, who is
a wealth of knowledge. They spend their lives around turkeys.
Just to be able to hang out with them is
enough for me. And yeah, we've we had a great

(07:36):
morning yesterday. You guys will eventually see the tail end
of our Nebraska trip. We had an amazing encounter with
a big tom here in the piney bridges of Nebraska
and got some excellent footage of that time. Yeah, Max,
Max sent me a clip. It looked straight Planet Earth.
It is wild. Um, yeah, it's absolutely wild. Yeah, and

(08:01):
so some slow motion footage, some some a bird dance
in the decoys. He came in on the string from
a couple hundred yards away down a hill up the
other side, across the fence, which you know turkeys tend
not to want to do. He did, and Ford knows
that from his experience in the in South Dakota. Across

(08:21):
the fence came right in the decoys. We let him
do a little dance and make a little love and
then we ended it with the t ss uh federal
premun tss real quickly there. But the day before Kevin
Harlander got a couple of birds, and a couple of
days prior to that, Ford Van Faws and you and
I doubled a joyous, joyous moment. I think folks will

(08:43):
see and perhaps think I overreacted. But when you've been
hunting turkeys and blowing snow for at that point four
or five days and you finally connect with not one
but two birds and in so doing tag out in
South Dakota, one gets excited. They to get excited. Now
I've told Phil this uh, and I will reiterate that.

(09:05):
I'm not sure the psychological things that happened, but whenever,
and it's really just be played the game of pursuing turkeys.
You get up early, you run hard, you sit out
in the snow, you freeze your ass off, and when
you finally have success, everything is better in your life,
like the sky is blue or whatever. You know. Fast
food hamburger. We ended up being coerced to eat that

(09:28):
evening was delicious. The bed is softer. Um. Everything is
sweeter at this point, partly, I think because you've won
the game. In the game that Fordnite played for five
straight days, uh, in two different states and in high
thirty wind, gusts, blowing snow, uh, extreme cold, frozen calls,

(09:52):
frozen everything. Um, did a lot of drive and did
a lot of walking. And to finally get to the
point where we're in Southakote and we got two birds
on the ground. Ah, you have every right to. I
feel like you fell onto the ground. I would say
laid you laid upon the excitement and excitement and kicked

(10:15):
into the air like a bicycle kick. I remember the
bicycle kick, but it it doesn't seem unlikely. It was
very I think it. I remember there there being some
sort of kicking. But we're man. We were excited, and
I guess the story goes that it can be done
in the and if you're out west hunting early season,

(10:36):
like we were on opening days some of the western states,
it can. Turkey hunting can be very successful in snow.
It can be very successful uh in rain or wind.
But boy, it makes it a whole ton harder. The
success we've had here on our third stop of the
turkey tour has been aided by some warm weather days
which has now switched today. I'm looking out the window.

(10:58):
It's muddy and snowy and windy again. Um. But we've
we've had some warm other days, some fired up birds,
and that's where you know, really the beautiful moments are
getting come. But you can it can you can scratch
out if you're if you're out there right now listening
and it's not great weather where you're at, Um, you
can scratch them out. You just gotta stay you gotta
stay on it, gotta stay persistent. You gotta spend the

(11:20):
time fortnite. We definitely spent the time well, I mean
talking scratch out. We were fortunate to have rick hunting
of fish hunt fight gear um and uh at our
at our first stop there in Montana and Katie Michetti
from Modern Huntsman's whose name I probably also mispronounced, but

(11:44):
they were able to kill two birds in I mean
borderline white out conditions. Um. And that was just full
on grit, borderline spot and stock turkey hunting. But recularly
saved the day in Montana with those with those two
birds filling some tags. Uh and UH turning turning the

(12:05):
frown upside down on some real inclement weather. Yep, And
that that brings to mind a couple of things we
need to address with the audience. You'll see it in
the footage. I'm sure um Ford Ford passed up a
jake on the first day. Uh, do you want to
just just talk about that a little bit forward and
what it was like to have me give you ship

(12:27):
for so long? About it? No, I mean everyone, I
would say, gave me proverbial feces over it. Um. You
know we're starting this this twelve or whatever day hunt.
We get there, the weather is lovely. We're here in
birds um, and we strike up a bird and you know,

(12:51):
it sounds a little pubic, or like it hasn't gone
through puberty. I would say, I guess what I'm looking for,
and pubic, Pubic's not the right words that should not
gone through puberty yet. So anyhow, we get in, we
set up. Jake sort of gobbles into view with another jake.
I put the gun barrel over it, and I look

(13:14):
at its neck closely, and it has a tiny little
spurt of beard, and I don't shoot it because I'm
thinking to myself, this is a giant turkey trip. Here
we are, We're great and powerful turkey hunters. I'm not
going to shoot this jake on the first day, and
I don't and I get back and as you stated,

(13:39):
she was immediately thrown my way, and in fact, I
would come to regret it, ah very much so given
the weather. I mean it was like on I passed
this Jacob and on a dime, the wind started blowing
forty mile an hour. The weather just went to hell,
uh and we struggled to get bird. So I a

(13:59):
hundred percent that should have shot the jake. And I
would like to emphasize that I am not a person
that usually passes jake's you know, I'm I'm always the
guy looking to kill the spike. But yeah, uh you know,
here we are doing this big content trip and I
was just inflated about it. I think I thought I
had to be someone I wasn't um. Alright, it sounds

(14:21):
like you've done some self reflection on this. Yeah, well
we had lots of time to think about it, trudging
around the snow not killing turkeys, and so Yescent should
have filled that type even more so because, uh, you know,
in Montana's an nonresident. I had a general tag and
a Region seven tag, two tags in my pocket. Uh,

(14:41):
and absolutely should have filled one of them on the jake.
But uh, you know you'll live and you'll learn. Yeah. Well,
here in the hunting Collective, we forgive and we forget,
and we'll tell a story about these two times we shot.
But we definitely you're right about this though. We We
arrived in Montana too beautiful weather, and literally as soon

(15:04):
as I arrived and started getting my tent together and
get all my gear out, the wind started to blow
and it did not stop blowing until we were blowing
the hell out of the state down to South Dakota. Uh,
we're we're licking our wounds headed down to South Dakota.
You know we we thought you get inflated. You think
you have all this confidence, you have all these goals.
I'm over here throwing out you know, double digitant numbers

(15:25):
of turkeys that we're gonna get and how if we
if we fill a tag here, where do we go next?
Thinking about all these positive outcomes, and we got our
butts flop pretty good there. Other than as you mentioned,
Rick Hutton, who is a bit of a turkey, I'm
not Gonna says. He's a sharp character. So he's not
a savant, but he's a master. He's a good turkey killer.

(15:46):
Him and him and old Steph Morris, Um, you know
how to slay turkeys, in particular in Montana, it would appear. Yeah,
and so Phil you, Um, you've heard all about the Jake's.
You heard from Tony Peterson that he likes to shoot him.
You've kind of heard the self reflection afford here. Where
do you stand currently on Jake's in terms of your
first hunt? I don't know. There's some sort of like

(16:09):
weird self pride thing that probably I I don't. I
don't know if I would. I'm sure I would in
the moment, but thinking about it right now, I'm like, no,
I don't. I don't. I don't know if are you
gonna go okay, all right? What if I'm like, shoot
the Jake, Shoot the Jake, Phil, shoot the Jake? Or you?
Will you be like quiet quiet, o'brieniod If I'm on

(16:31):
my my my last, my last limb with you, I'm
just tired and fed up and I want things to
end quickly, then you'll shoot. I'm looking forward to this
man I'm looking forward to hunt. Every time I post
anything about turkeys, I get about a dozen d ms
about like why didn't you bring Phil? What's wrong with it? Asshole?
Um So anyhow, Yes, we eventually made our way to

(16:54):
South Dakota. We had a couple of of snowy, cold
days there and then on the morning of day five.
Is this correct there's a day four? It would have
been day four of hunting. I would say it was
our second full day in the code. I think, yeah, yeah,
I think day five total. Day five, we've got two

(17:17):
turkeys on the ground, but nothing for me and Ford.
We've hunted our butts off. Ford goes in and roost
some birds. The night before we had been out that morning,
the wind was blown, it was cold, no gobbles, a
couple of gobbles right off the roost, and then will
be completely silent, And it was a feeling like it
was going to be a real struggle to scratch out

(17:39):
of turkey and the time that we had to do it.
But we sidled up to the roost. We we I
knew that these birds would gobble in the roost if
they got fired up. When they hit the ground, they
basically shut up for most of the day. You might
hear a gobbler two at them for the for the
entire time that they're on their feet during any point
to stay. They're miserable, just like we are. You know,
they're not warm, they're not half be they're not content,

(18:01):
They're miserable. They're trying to get out of the wind.
They're hunkering down, they're getting in the timber um wherever
they can. And so our strategy was to get up
to the roost tree as close as we felt safe
that they wouldn't see us, get in there, put the
decoys out, back off, and be quiet and listen for
the fly down. Well, we got quite the as you'll

(18:24):
see on the content at first, like Instagram stories, we
got quite the gobble gobble show. In the morning, there
was I don't know how many birds lightening up in
the tree, you know, maybe a hundred twenty yards up
the ridge from us. There are some some hens in
there yelping right that we felt like we're behind, like
we were literally on the wrong side of of the hens.

(18:44):
The gobblers in between us and the hens on the
other side of the ridge. So it didn't seem like
a great opportunity to start off, but the birds were
fired up, and when they flew down, I wasn't quite
sure exactly where they flew down, But as soon as
they kind of he heard him fly down, a gobb
will lit up way in the distance, further in the distance.

(19:05):
Then we wanted and I looked at Ford him like,
I think they I think they flew down yards in
the other direction. Yeah, man, I mean when I heard
that hand on sort of the far side of the rise,
my heart sank a little. I figured she had just
dragged him off the total opposite direction, but it was

(19:25):
so far off that I did a part of me also,
I thought it was a separate turkey, which in fact
was the case. Yeah, it was the case. And so
it wasn't too long before. I mean, it was still
in the you know, it was still probably prior to
shooting light. When they flew down and they're up the ridge,
they actually flew there's four what four times was it

(19:47):
four tims yep um four times fly down and hit
the ground. I couldn't see him, but Ford could. One
of our camera guys, Jonah, could see him. They fly down,
they hop up on a log there, Sauce trutting together. Um.
Eventually Ford gets an eye on them. Eventually I can
hear him spitting and drumming up there. No gobbles, no nothing.

(20:09):
My strategy was as soon as they hit the ground
to start calling, you know, and just just kind of
very light, almost like tree yelps, like very contented yelps,
nothing excited, because these turkeys when they hit the ground,
they're just trying to get warm, fine shelter um. And
so we weren't going to really be aggressive with calling,
so we just did I did some like clucking, some

(20:30):
you know, some turn and directed the yelping to behind me,
and these birds kind of slowly I mean and I
mean slowly snake their way in. They only had to
go one hundred yards or so. Oh yeah, they kind
of they did sort of the move left, move back
right scenario kind of you know, danced at maybe seventy

(20:51):
yards back and forth, and then sort of went around
some dead fall and sort of started the dump and
dumping towards us slowly. Yeah, and they only came out
into view the first time he went down this little
cut and there was timber between us and the turkeys.
But there, you know, they pop out of probably sixty
yards and they're just slowly working their way. No goblin.

(21:13):
There's one dominant Tom and probably three subdominant Tom's two
year olds, i would say, and one strutter. All the
others were kind of just popping around looking nervous, you know,
not looking like the regular fired up, happy turkeys were
used to in the spring. And they kind of slowly
work their way down towards our decoys within about fifty yards.

(21:36):
And as I'm at this point, the understanding of the
mindset is that I wanted to kill a turkey desperately.
We all wanted to get on the board desperately. It's
been five days. So I kind of had the opportunity
to shoot the first bird that came down before we
got in the decoys, before we had the opportunity to
bring the other three birds down. My thought process was, Man,

(21:56):
I'm gonna take a chance at this and see if
the all four of them will coming to the decoys.
They've already committed pretty far, but they weren't fired up,
they weren't coming to the decoys. They were just kind
of filtering our way with some interest in what we
were doing. And what we think happened is they saw
the decoys with snow all over them, and that kind
of boogered him, and they all four of them started

(22:17):
to walk away immediately, so as yeah, that's my guess,
and that you know, they probably what were they probably
twenty or thirty yards from the decoys, and yeah, I
mean it was at that point the system was moving in,
it was snowing hard, and there was probably a quarter
to a half may just snow on the decoys that
had accumulated just in the you know, thirty for you

(22:40):
whatever minutes since we've been sitting there. Yeah. Yeah, So
we just figured that that really they weren't comfortable anyway,
They weren't really all that fired up. Um, although there
was one time that continued to strut throughout, I think
only just just really as a dominant the show of
dominance over these other birds. But yeah, they were walking away,
And in that moment that they're walking away, I'm thinking,

(23:02):
I can't, no way, there's no way that these birds,
there's no way they're going to walk away from us.
My heart sank when I started to see the rear
ends of them kind of heading away over over into
the distance. Yeah. I get stressed out now thinking about it,
even though we killed two birds, I get stressed out
at watching they're just walking away from us, are like

(23:23):
sixty yards, are all bunched up, I can't shoot. Now,
I'm thinking I totally messed us up. I should have
just shot the first time they're walking away. I shouldn't
have tried to get at all. I should have just
scratched out the turkey that we could get out of
this deal. And so I just thought, well, I'm gonna
have to like give a couple of clocks or something
to see if they'll turn. So I gave up a
just a couple of like desperate clucks, and the first

(23:46):
bird kind of turned and they started. They didn't come
back to us, but they started going up the way
they came. Yeah, they retraced their steps enough. Yeah they didn't.
I mean, you know, you hunt turkeys like this, you
don't really know what they're gonna do. They're not fired
up to charge of deco voice. They're just kind of
uh feeling out the space, I guess, in a weird way.
So they turned around. The first bird gets crosses U

(24:08):
into an opening. At this point, it's on, I'm not
letting him get anywhere. I shoot. He drops the other
birds kind of go immediately run up the hill. Ford
shoots boom, dead two turkeys on the ground. I think
you had to put a second shot on him, but
that's not uncommon. Yeah, you know, in retrospect, I don't

(24:30):
even remember why I shot again. Necessarily my head. It
just it did happen, um and hopefully it was necessary unclear,
Yeah it was, it was necessary. So we got two
top miammediate reaction was like relief and just we got
it in an incredibly difficult situation. Uh. Ford's relief or

(24:52):
forwards reaction was pure joy, as we explained, but man,
it was. It's the best feel in the world. You know,
we all know that when you struggle to get something,
when you finally get it, when you work hard and
you finally get it, Uh, it means all the more
so that that that felt good and and uh those
were that was our Turkey success story prior to coming

(25:12):
here to Nebraska where we've had some some additional success.
But it's uh, man, it feels good. Oh it was awesome, man.
And you know the other thing ben to be honest,
this storm system was had opened up on us. It's
snow and I don't know inch an hour, but it
was pushing, pushing, that rate coming down hard, and we're

(25:34):
supposed to get you know, they were calling for I
don't know, like four to eight inches and you know
that just done. I wasn't feeling optimistic about our chances
kind of going forward from that. Um. Hell, Ben, you
were talking about how we were gonna we were going
to track these turkeys. That was becoming our next strategy

(25:57):
was you know, with with four inches of snow, we
we're just gonna start tracking turkeys through uh through the area,
which I mean we would have done, I suppose, but
it was it's not how you draw it up in
terms of turkey hunting conditions. So I was I'll be honest.
I was excited too that we were able to seal

(26:17):
the deal before that thing really and that storm had
really laid down some snow. Yeah, because it eventually that
was last Thursday and it's now Thursday and all day Friday,
almost two in that country. So if we wouldn't have
I would have got those two burs down when we did,
we would have had two incredibly hard days of hunting.
And other folks that we met that were you know,

(26:40):
folks like we mentioned earlier we're hunting, didn't have any luck,
you know, and on places where they're really used to
having a quick turn turkey hunt, you know, with a
lot of birds in the area. So yeah, that's just
one of the many stories from the trek for turkeys. UM.
If you want to hear all of the stories, every
single one of the stories, then you've got to go

(27:00):
over there the First Lights instagram that's at First Light
Hunting and you'll see all the stories. There's gonna be
plenty of swipe ups to get you to this n
WTF website link for can can you tell people what's
going to be at that link? Pos there's some pretty
cool things if you sign up for membership at that link,
there's some pretty cool things that you can get. So
if you sign up for a n WTF membership National

(27:25):
Wild Turk Federation membershipt um, you will also be at
entered to win um a little package we put together
including uh some on X max memberships, weather be eighteen
I shotgun, which is the shotgun that both Ben and

(27:46):
I and Harlander at least and probably more in our
party are running right now. And uh, if all that's
not good enough, you'll be entered to win a first
Light kit styled over Zoom by Steve Ronnella himself. So
Steve will hop on a zoom call with you. He'll say,
you know, what are you hunting? Where you're hunting? What

(28:06):
are you doing? Okay, okay, this is what you need.
You need this base layer, this mid layer, these pants. Um.
He'll build that kit with you and then first Light
will mail it right to your door. That's beautiful, man. Well,
like like we've been saying, this is this is our
way of putting together a telephone. Telephone for the NWTF. UM,

(28:27):
you'll also hear the aforementioned stories about conservation projects and
important work that the NBTF does in this area. But
it's not just this area. Yeah, I mean I think
that's and that was sort of that's that's a part
of this man. I have one of my proverbial I
guess access to grind or dynamics. I think is interesting.

(28:48):
We talked a ton about conservation in our world in
the hunting industry, UM, and that's all good. But I
really enjoy seeing what conservation is. And by that I mean, okay, well, yeah,
we want to give dollars n WTF. Well what are
those dollars doing. And in this circumstance, we're illustrating where
that money goes. Right, it goes to UH spring head

(29:13):
exclosures in the Barrelage Mountains of Wyoming, it goes to
a riparian area exclosure in UM in the Custer National
Forest of Montana. It's going to timberstand improvement projects in
Nebraska and in the south and in South Dakota. UM.
So you know, we're we're getting in there. We're talking
to these guys Jason, Jared Um, et cetera, and walking

(29:37):
these projects, learn about what they cost, how they were
put together, all that good stuff, and and kind of
showing folks where their money goes when they give too.
Conservation groups and in this circumstance, the National Wild Turkey Federation. Yeah,
And like I said, we got to meet Luke, a
local forester here, and he told us all about how

(29:58):
he were and cooperation. His position is a cooperative position
with UM, all these agencies and n WTF. And he
works with the Nebraska Forest Service, Nebraska Game in Parks,
the U. S. Forest Service, and they administer these projects together.
So it is a cooperative approach to conservation and it's
easy to just say the word. As Ford mentioned, they're

(30:20):
kind of broadly understand, um, what what goes into conservation.
But then you start talking to people that actually do
it for a living and what they go through and
the grant writing processes that they go through and how
they get the funding and how their jobs come together.
Then you really start to understand the scope and measure

(30:41):
of the work that's done. So Um, when you're walking
around some of these pieces of public ground or even
private ground in some in many cases with the n WTF,
you can really appreciate what that habitat looks like. You know,
how thin it is underneath those pines, how much habitat
there is for turkeys to use there wouldn't be other,
how much less fuel there is for burns in the area,

(31:02):
so we don't wipe out habitat all together in some instances.
So all that is extremely important. And if this sounds
like a telephone for NWTF, well it damn well is one.
And so go over and follow the instructions at first Light,
doc well first Light's Instagram page and help him out
thirty five bucks. You can win a bunch of really

(31:24):
cool stuff. Um, trust me, trust us. It goes to
UM a great cause and the cause that we talked
about here quite often, which is Turkey hunting. And as
we move forward in the year, the New Hunter and
the last couple episodes of this year program before we
were off the air for good, there's no more important
time to be talking about it. So thank you for

(31:44):
Van Fausten. Um. We'll keep everybody updated next week about
how this whole thing ended, and uh, we'll be yelling
at you try to get us to there's a thousand
memberships by what do you see the end of the month.
Ward that's a goal and April, I mean the trip
will be wrapping up a little before that. But it's
nice round numbered, uh to push h Like I said,
a thousand folks to sign up for the old n

(32:04):
w t F. Yeah, a lot of people have reached
out as we announced the end of a hunting collective
and a couple of a couple of weeks to ask
what they can do and to say thank you. If
you really want to say thank you to me, to us,
this is a good way to do it. Ah, this
is the perfect way to do it in fact, So UM,
I appreciate you for Van Flawston and Uh, I don't
mean to follow you up with the shame mahoney, but

(32:26):
I'm gonna do it. And no one remembers before Danson,
No man, Thanks for having me on, Ben, it's been
it's been a blast hunting turkeys out there. It really
has been tough as it's been. It's always good to
chase them around. Yeah, there's never a better day than
a day in the Turkey Woods, success or failure. So
we're gonna turn it over to a great conversation about

(32:49):
possession in the hunting world, in our need for possession
and what that all means with I said about five
words during this interview, and that's how I like it
because the rest of them came from the great and
powerful Shane mahoney. But before we get to Shane, UM,
we had a little audio difficulty and during the interview,
I did not notice that the audio is a little

(33:10):
bit choppy on Shane's and fill the engineers fixing her
up as best we can. We apologize for that issue. Um,
you can still hear Shane. It's just not the best.
We try to get the best audio we can in
these remote interviews and this one could be better. Um,
hopefully you still get to hear his message and it
comes through loud and clear. Please now joined Shane Mahoney.

(33:40):
Shane Mahoney, we had to hit record on this podcast
because we forgot. I forgot and you we were having
a great conversation as we tend to always do. Um So,
I'm glad we're recording and welcome back to the podcast,
sir well facts bet, it's great to be here. We
always have a lot of fun tonight. I always enjoy it,
and I'm I'm delighted and anxious to see where our

(34:02):
where our pathway will take with this time. Absolutely, it's
always uh, it's always an adventure anytime, whether you and
I are having beers at the Wild Cheap Convention or
podcasting and in across the across the world. Really in
this case, um well, so I wanted to start by
just normally I thank everyone at the end, but I
wanted to to start by just thanking you. Um. I

(34:25):
know I told you via text that are our little
show here is coming to an end. Uh in about
three more weeks will be the last episode of our show.
We've had a good three year run. Moving on to
do other things and and focus on other things, and
in both the meat either company and in my career.
So I want to just thank you as I start

(34:45):
to reflect on this is a hundred and seventy some
odd episodes of hour long conversations. When I reflect on
on all those conversations, I look back, you know, maybe
most finally on your contributions and helping us all learn
about the North American model of conservation and our relationship
to animals. UM. I think everyone is always inspired by

(35:07):
your words and and so I just wanted to start
by saying thank you for for participating. UM. I'll probably
be very more reflective in the next few weeks, and
I normally am, but UM, I've definitely been thinking that
the last couple of days. I just wanted to say
thank you. Well. It's very kunny man. I appreciate you
saying so. You know, it's easy when you're having a

(35:30):
conversation with being wants to think about these things. UM.
There's as everything around is constantly reminds us in one
way or another, relationships with nature m are fundamentally the
most important things we have exceed supersede all of them

(35:53):
issues because without the natural world, we would never have existed.
In about the natural world simply cann So I think
it's um. You know, it has always been a great
way for storytelling to emerge, talking of nature, no matter who.

(36:15):
And it's part of what makes us admire people who
feel comfortable in nature so much, whether that's a a
rural matt family or a man and woman and their
children comfortable around forces and living with wildlife. It's fishermen
who are comfortable on the ocean or um. It's a

(36:37):
it's a it's an unending it's an unending louver kind
of possibilities, but one when one starts to talk about
animals and animal nature and so on. So a pleasure
all the time, and I look forward to this one
as well. Yeah, absolutely no, as you as you as
you're speaking, there I a question pops into my mind that,

(36:59):
you know, the first time we talked on this podcast,
you you know, talked about your upbringing, and you talked
about the way you were raised and kind of how
that shaped you. If you were to if you were
to meet someone who had no idea about the natural world,
if if you know, an extraterrestrial came down and ask you,
how is it that the natural world has shaped your life?
And got you too where you are today. How would

(37:22):
you how would you articulate that? Because I think that's
an important, you know, foundational moment for me when I
heard you, you know, explaining that the first time. But um,
i'd love everybody to hear just in its its raw form. Well,
I think I would. I would. I would ask them
probably a question first, how do they think they came

(37:42):
to be? And undoubtedly, depending on their civilization, uh, they
would have either some kind of very empirical, scientific, so
to speak, explanation of their existence, or they would have
have some kind of mythological notion. But no matter which

(38:05):
explanation they gave, it would involve outside forces. They were
not the epicenter of their own creation. Of course. Originally
they had to arise from within some greater things. That's
the universe, whether that's the planet, you know, whether it's
the margins of the oceans or wherever it might be.
And so I would explain to them that what we

(38:29):
call nature is that thing that is what gave us life,
that is what designed us, that is what to the
greatest extent of all things, far greater than our own
personal genetics, etc. It's greater than all things in setting
our expectations, our experiences, our dreams are physical attributes, our longevity,

(38:55):
our mating systems, our relationships with our families. I mean
that this outside thing made us what we are. They
may have another name for it, but here on the
planet Earth we call that. That's what that's yeah. Yeah.

(39:16):
And then as we were speaking about before we hit
recorded or there is ah, A strong feeling has always
been in my life that I'm a part of that right,
that thing we call nature, and I know you feel
the same. Um, how did you? And and again I'm
at some like some of the last you to repeat
things you said I know in this show before. But

(39:36):
how do you how do you talk about that connectedness
and describe? Um, what you always said is animals are
not another you know, they just are not well. I
mean to me, how I describe it is to simply
ask people to, you know, question themselves. For someone who
grew up as I did, for someone who had the

(39:58):
career I have had, spending truly inordinate amounts of times
in wild places, it's relatively easy for people to say, well,
he's become that way because of those things. And but
you can take people who have often more into very

(40:19):
different societies and very different circumstances, and yet they are
fascinated by the sight of wild things. It may be fearful,
they may be happy, they may be cautious, They need
all these things, may may be part of their reaction.
But they are in thhrall to some extent by the
appearance of something that is living, is not the same

(40:41):
as themselves. And so I would ask them to ask
themselves why should that be so? Why should they be
so absolutely fascinated when their backgrounds they may have been
royals or doctors and Chicago or Montreal or London some
other place. Why is it that we all have a

(41:03):
certain it's kind of absolute fascination. Why is it truly
all breeds and colors and creations are fascinating time, tiny
little humans with the other life forms that are out there.
And so I mean, I guess I tried to reach
people on that kind of level. You know, if every

(41:26):
day we open up our computers and we see these
crazy videos, you know, which you can't help but watch.
You know, someone's out of golf course and all of
a sudden, an eagle flies by, you know, runs down
a duck, you know, or an alligators out there, you know,
sunning himself near the ninth Hole or whatever it would be.

(41:47):
I mean, we are absolutely wrong to those stories. And
I'll tell you something else that's really finer details. Have
you noticed the emotional outpoint occurs when someone does something
time for an animal, especially an animal unknown to them.

(42:08):
Somebody cares for their dog or or or whatever. It's
kind of accepted. But you know, if if someone rescues
a deer that is that is found in any ice
in icy water, or I saw one the other day,
or a bobcat had been frozen into a railway tracks
and and people totally wild, but people discovered it and

(42:32):
helped to free it and so on, it's over. And
the the outpouring of human emotion for both the animal
itself but also for the humans who have assisted that
animal is extraordinary. And you know, sometimes people complain about
this and they say, oh, they you know, they cared
more about the mountain line who attacked the lady than

(42:52):
they heard about the lady who was attacked. There's an
element of truth, but there's another layer of thinking that
by that and say, well, isn't that extraordinary that we
can kind of relate to the lion equally as we
can to our primate friend here, the human. That's not
to belittle the restiveness of the dangerous that nature. You know,

(43:15):
these things, these things are in us. They're not put
there by some book we read or some professor at
university or some calling down the road. These are these
are in us. And sometimes it takes a little more
to bring them out. Sometimes it takes a little less.

(43:36):
But I'll tell you it is in every single human being.
This tendency, this this this this empathy, this connection with
all of the others, and so it should be because
we're all connected. They always have absolutely How do you

(43:56):
and this is we've talked as we were mentioning before
we record again, we've talked a lot about animal rights
and veganism on this program. We've kind of explored how
similar are our thought processes are with them as hunters.
But taking a step back from that, for even for
a moment, when we talk about our connectedness with nature

(44:17):
and the animals that inhabited and that are part of it.
And then you become a hunter, can you describe, you know,
from your view, what are the possible pitfalls of as
you become a hunter and you start to hunt, pursue
and then kill um wild animals, how that might change
the way that you see them in a positive or

(44:38):
negative way, because I think for me it's been been
decidedly positive. But when you start with that connection you mentioned,
and then you insert the pursuit and killing of of
those wild animals, it's bound to change, um, how one
might perceive those those that connectedness itself. Mhm, Well it

(44:59):
does the heavily because UM human beings have obviously great
abhorrence of the killing garb species. We we have terms
like murders and so on, which are reputed as anious

(45:20):
acts UM, and so we understand at some level of
the killing of a sentient being it is to cross
the threshold very significant, UM. I think for those of
us who grew up with animals, of course, we always

(45:41):
knew they They were so very similar to us in
so many looks. You know. They could easily be started
and fearful, They could feel a lone um, they could
become confused in circumstances, they could run out of fear,
they could freeze and fear. But they could also do
amazing things like rescue people like we're famously from my dogs,

(46:02):
you know, which were notorious for rescuing people who were drowning,
and so on and so forth. So we came to
understand that the animals had these kinds of shared capacities
with us, and we understood that it was possible for
love to flow between human being and another animal. And
humans knew that they loved them, that their horse, for example,

(46:24):
or their but if you but deep down, they also
felt and believed directly that there was an element of
love that came back to them from annibal to them.
And we have seen too many examples of this for
it to be bated whether it's true or not. It
is true. And so when one becomes a hunter um

(46:49):
and one of it takes that act of killing, you
now see another extraordinary, very tense example of the great
similarities between the animals and ourselves. They feel pain, they react,

(47:11):
and fear, they can go into shop. There are natural
systems behave the same way to the impact of the
bullet of the arrow as ours would, How they bleed,
how they eventually die, and the entire reaction that they
show at our hands reinforces I think in many people

(47:39):
this very idea that they are the same as us
that doesn't change the natural equation of life. The fleshy
is flesh, and that we are all interconnected with food web.
But I think for for a lot of hunters, um,
and maybe for a lot of hunters, particularly as they

(48:02):
get a bit more experienced and mikes this and think
about this more, I think what hunting does actually is
reinforce the that they are the same as us, which
of course places enormous burdens on us in terms of
you know, how we hunt and how we try to
make as you may and as quick as it possibly

(48:27):
can be. Um, there is of course always you know,
radiation scale of variability and the reactions of any group
of people where it's hunting, hunters, or missionaries or political
leaders or whatever it be, and not everybody feels as

(48:47):
deeply about those things. And of course there will be
some people who will reject thinking because if you hold
onto this thinking, realizing similar they are, but they feel
the book the same as you are I would. It
can be very you know, it can disenfranchise you from

(49:09):
the action altogether. We can sort of prevent you from
doing perhaps thinking too in some cases. And we all know,
well I can speak for myself, We all know that
at that moment that then after the stock is over
and there's the point which you feel you can shoot,

(49:30):
and you raise your rifle and settled across there as
its own. At some point you do have to drift
into a kind of special space where you keep all
of that out of your mind. You have to, you
have to enter a clean space. And having taken the

(49:52):
life of the animal, um, you're immediately brought back the
same if you get to it before it has a
we perished. We see it asking for air, see bleading
the CD, see first the environment its eyes, and then
you see the length about of its eyes. And it

(50:14):
is one of the most profound reconnections with nature, of course,
that it's possible for anyone to have. And it should
as well make us understanding more of the complex dynamics
that are necessary in nature, not just the role of prey,

(50:35):
but the role of predator and then the entire role
of habitats. It's necessary to of course support those natural
systems which can provide for human beings and provide for
species all at the same time. It's um. Even the
act of gutting their exposes you. If you were if

(50:55):
you're curious, you know too, the different sizes of the
organs and the body of different species. Why the liver
may be so big at one the hearts so big
in another. If you open the stomach you see what
they feed on, and suddenly realize that, you know, they've
been covering all this ground searching out for these different
kinds of plants. So it's in the case of a predator,

(51:18):
is different kinds of prey. And then you realize again
that all of that has to be taught in some
way and learned by juvenile animals in the same way
that that little humans have to learn from older units.
I mean, at so many levels it it makes you profoundly,

(51:40):
you know, just kind of kind of an awe of
the fact that that we can all be related to
such a kind of kind of absolutely critical way, an
immutable way. And and that's why, of course, at some level,

(52:02):
the thinking of people who are very much in favor of,
you know, use of animals, sustainably use people who hunt,
fish and gather, and oh kind of at some in
some way, not in a straight line, but kind of
in an arc, come to share a lot of the

(52:23):
emotional emotional attachments, the emotional aspects thinking for people who
are more in a non use mode rights or welfare
termind of you know, there's there seems to be a
lot of space in between those two groups, between the hunter,

(52:45):
let's say, the classic hunter, classic animal rights activists. But
you know, it always seems to me that if we
both of us were on trampolines, we just gave a
little bounce to our own beliefs, in our own ideas,
you know, we would probably eventually see a great deal
in common between ourselves. Certainly, that's my whole because, as

(53:10):
I have always said, if I have to choose between
a world in which there are you know, some people
care about wildlife and and believe in being part of
the ecological relationship hunting, gatherer and fish and so on,
and a group of people on the other side who

(53:31):
say that's wrong. These animals are too precious, and they're
too much like us, You cannot do this kind of
thing rights whatever. I have to choose between that and
the world where there are people who hunt and fish
and gather someone and believe that we can sustainably utilize,
respectfully utilize wild things, and and another part of the

(53:54):
world doesn't care at all, I would much have sooner
have the first work. Where are people who are deep
association with with wild things and with other life forms
and practice the use of them in a traditional way,
and those people who say, no, you should not be

(54:17):
doing this at all. I prefer that world of of
values and debate rather than a world where there is
significant difference towards animals and wild things. In difference will
lead us nowhere except into this debate. Debate leads two places. Yeah,

(54:37):
one of Yeah, one of the things that I've discovered
over my time having these discussions is that you know,
this analogy that I believe that when it comes to
animal rights and venus, we as hunters stand, you know,
at the beginning, when we're looking at a value system
for wildlife, we stand or animals as a whole, We

(54:59):
stand back to back, and then we slowly over time
have walked away from each other and we forgot where
we started. We're yelling across this void at each other,
you know, using our disagreements as a as a way
to stay apart. When we forget that we start at
generally the same idea as you just describe there, that
we both value animals. We just have a different way

(55:21):
of expressing it in a different way of of seeing
it in in both you know, the personal sense, the
more tangible sense, and the intangible sense of the word.
So I've just I've discovered in and as I said,
through talking to a lot of vegans and animal rights folks,
that we can come together. It takes almost one conversation
to take the most ardent animal rights activists and bring

(55:42):
them ten steps back from where they are to to
to better understanding of where you and I, you know,
I think equally sit. But I do want to return
to to a point you just made there about that
clear space when you're hunting, about that time, the flow state,
if you will, when you have to, you know, make
that final act of hunting, which is to kill. I

(56:06):
just got back from I am on now a turkey
hunt that's two weeks long, and I often get lost
in the game like qualities of hunting, right, I get lost.
I get lost in the learning the animals, habits, overcoming
my own obstacles, overcoming weather changes, overcoming the things in

(56:26):
hunting that feel like a game. There's conflict and resolution. Um,
there is an ultimate goal that I'm trying to achieve.
And as I think about those game like qualities. I
wonder when is it okay to get lost in just
the pursuit? You started to answer that question, I think
you said it well, but do you see across the

(56:49):
landscape of hunters that that we get lost in the
pursuit too much and we we never do return to
that moment you said, when an animal is dead and
we get to to engender that respect and think critically
about our own interaction with that animal. Um. That was
really the basis for this show is to explore what's
the difference between being a hunter, you know, and and

(57:13):
being a conservationist or being a hunter and understanding ecosystems, um.
And I think the core of that might lie at
how entrenched do we get at playing the game, the
pursuit game of hunting. M hm, well, there's a lot
in that question too, But let me start by saying this.

(57:39):
I think there is the individual experience that has in
which he may share with his son or daughter, or
with his best friends, or with his wife or the
wife with a husband. There is that story, There is

(57:59):
that there is that memory, that history. Then there is
a kind of a collective image that is portrayed by
you know, journalists or people who write articles, magazines, television shows, podcasts, etcetera, etcetera,
which um, which often of course, particularly things are the podcasts,

(58:24):
which are very personalized. They tend to kind of represent
the activity kind of UM. And as we both know,
there are many dimensions to that which are sometimes commercial
and so on and so forth, And therefore we can
create for the viewer of all of this very very

(58:50):
different stories. This this oldest way of life, which is hunt.
And in many cases, as you well know, an individual
hunter will say he or she will say to you

(59:10):
or to me or to other friends. You know, I
really don't like the way they talk about what I do.
So the first thing I would say is that, um,
there is a there's a lot of ways in which
the story gets the story UM. But I also do

(59:32):
believe that um um, and the importance of that distortion,
by the way, is that people who can be brought
into hunting and hearing that distorted story can develop certain
kinds of cultural expectations of how they perform and when

(59:52):
they are. But the second point I make is that
we you know, the the one of the great objectives
of hunting course is to is to secure the animal.
The ultimate drive, the ultimate psychological drive of hunting is

(01:00:16):
about possession m hmm. And while there are many other
physical drivers, and many other cultural drivers, and so on
and so forth, the idea of hunting is to possess
that animal that you see there. Of course, the only

(01:00:36):
way to possess to killing those otherwise it will simply
be with you. That's the only way you can possess it.
And to some extent, therefore, a threshold is reached in
hunting in the human mind, the human emotion and intellect um,
where once the animal is possessed, when it is dead,

(01:00:59):
there and you can walk up to it, touch its antis,
and touch its body and know that it will not
leap away. Again, that's a really important threshold of the world.
Too few people go to what is the next level,

(01:01:21):
the next threshold, which is to spend time honoring. As
I said in one of my sports of field are
three or four or five years ago. We do a
great job of honoring those people who seem to have
success with hunting awards and trophies and titans and all

(01:01:43):
this kind of thing. But how often do we honor
without which none of this is possible. Well, there are
traditions in the world from them. In traditions are putting
the last piece of food in the animal's mouth and
doing various small things to honor. I think these need

(01:02:09):
to be brought into the culture of hunting all over
the world, and in fact the European expression which a
lot of people know about, particularly the German and Austrian
traditions and so on. Um this is really only modernized

(01:02:30):
expression of what was the traditional feeling amongst hunters when
they pursued wildlife, of course for the very purpose of survival.
I have seen films oh black, grainy jumping films of
kom bushman and the Calahari pursue big animals like giraffes

(01:02:57):
for example, um and eland and pierce them with their
tiny little arrows, poisonous arrows, until they bring the animal
to the standstill by running in the blistering hot sun
over the sand to eight hours. And in one of
the films there was a translation where these these these

(01:03:19):
small black men were running after the animal they had
chasing a kudu, big animal, as you know, very impressive,
wonderful example of the spiral point. And they said for
the first eight hours running in the blistering sun. We
chase the kudu, but after that we entered the dream

(01:03:41):
space and the are we no longer look for a sign,
no longer look for tracks, because we are running with him.
The end of that kind of hunt is a spear
thrust into the lungs and hearts of the animal which
cannot run any further. But then there are the quiet moments.

(01:04:10):
There were three men in this particular case talking in
their own amazing click language about the end, about its
beauty and its side, how well it ran, and all
of these kinds of things. And this is something that
needs to be emphasized more for young hunters. It needs

(01:04:31):
to be part of what we emphasize. We ought to
be moving in hunting experience and training and education backwards
from that moment that should be the beginning moment of
their training, and go all the way back from there
to learning about you know, wildlife management, and learning about

(01:04:51):
a rifle, and learning about cartridges and ballistics and all
these kinds of things. And I think it's u some
people have it to some extent greater than others, but
I think it is possible to make it part of
the hunting culture to a much much greater extent, And

(01:05:13):
I think it would be impossible for even someone deeply
opposed to the hunting of animals to witness those kinds
of moments between still living human who will one day die,
of course, just as the animal itself has died and
returned to the earth exactly the same way, who looks
down upon this life form, and as I have expressed

(01:05:34):
myself many times, in a sense wishes that he could
possess and consume and give life back to that animal
all over. Yeah, but of course the ecology of life
does not work. Now, that's a that's a powerful message.
I have have recently been thinking about and discussing kind

(01:05:57):
of the practical version of my hunting life, the emotional
version of my hunting life, and kind of the crossroads
of both and and so I can very much appreciate
that possession and honor and kind of balancing those two
and setting them against each other in some ways, I
imagine that you'll have to do. Do you have a
do you have a personal story of of a moment

(01:06:20):
like this where you particularly call back to when when
for context of how this, how that honoring and that
emotion plays into the end of a hunt, something that
has happened in your life, or maybe a story that
you've heard from someone you respect along the way. I mean,
I think for me then, and you know, I speak

(01:06:42):
very emotionally about this active, speak personally and be honest,
I think it's probably true that I started to first
speak publicly, emotionally and honestly about this activity. Um. This
this this natural engagement. It made, It certainly made some

(01:07:06):
audience is uncomfortable. And but I guess for me, um,
it's not so much a single hunt or a single event.
It's a series of events that are completely independent but

(01:07:27):
are very often the same, and which taught me that
all of hunting is about possession. You don't hear that
people don't talk. Yeah, I've never I haven't heard outside
of of our conversations and what you said today. And
I want all listeners to remember why you're you know
that that word it's important. But that's so when I

(01:07:51):
was a very small boy, UM, living in a very
isolated community. Um, of course, I started out by catching
insects and bumble bees and jars and visual kinds of things.
And I I was, I mean, I did it relentlessly.
I was always, always, always, acts um and I had

(01:08:17):
from even that experience. First, I can see them in
the jars now, with the small, the small flowers. I
would put there in anything I thought that i'd keep
them alive and keep well, so that I could keep
them in my possession for longer and longer. And then,
of course, eventually what would happen to some of them?
They would grow weak, and then it would start to

(01:08:39):
crawl around in the jar instead of flying and buzzing
trying to get out of the lid, so on and
so forth. And I'd make sure there were holes in
the lid for air to get in, and you know,
all the things to try to keep this little ancle alive,
this this insect. I didn't didn't want him to the
last thing. Of course, eventually I would possess him until
he died, and then maybe when he was weak, I'd

(01:09:01):
lay them out on the ground and wait for him
to spend the life do And of course then I
would be able to look at him very carefully and
see the hairs on his legs and all but his
eyes looked like in his jaws, and his stinger and
all these kinds of things which I couldn't really see
when he was buzzing around in my jump. And then

(01:09:21):
we used to have things like snowbirds which would come
in under winter ice, and you we try to catch them.
I remember we used to hide under the wharf and
and get a small piece of wood like pie wood,
just something we would find on the beach, and we
would put a stick under it with a little piece
of rope, you know, and then crawled back underneath the

(01:09:42):
the wharf, the frozen ice. There's no water under the
wharf any just pure ice. It's a very poor community.
We put little pieces of fat pork or rolled out
anything we could get thin with enticeees in the snowbirds,
and when they come in under the board, of course,
we pulled the spring. And the hope was that you

(01:10:05):
would you would not kill one, but the hope was
that you sort of capture. And I remember doing that
and and killing one, take time, and and holding that
that little bird in my hand. I was a small boy,
four maybe certainly all of them. And and this is

(01:10:30):
this is a freezing cold place, you know, this is
this is this is this is a place. You can't travel.
You can't you can't travel by boat from us because
it was I so much ice there. And I can
still remember taking off by mead and and having that
little bird and the warmth from its body, which of
course it was a complete surprise to me. I did.

(01:10:54):
I didn't think about them being warm as they flew around,
and and and so on and so forth, and then
and then feeling of course the heat leave. It's it's
it's it's body. And so this these experiences gets get
translated over and over and over and over again in
my life to the times when I finally began to

(01:11:15):
hunt them. I didn't begin to hunt till life was,
you know, my early twenties. I hadn't been around it
to do it myself. And of course, uh, first memorable
animal was a was a monstrous pool moose. It's like
it's a long way the long way of a bumble
bee and a snowbird. And ah. But what I remember

(01:11:40):
then about that that this one shot we floated to
the ground like a beef. Shot him in the back
of the spine. Was instant, instant, instantly, And I still
remember as you got closer to him. First of all,

(01:12:00):
this year's size, this is a big bluddy things. Uh,
at the size of his holes, you know, and then
leaning against him and again feeling that incredible amount of
heat being renovative generated from his body. And then I
can also remember finally touching those antlers I had collected.

(01:12:25):
I had collected I don't know how many animals in
my time. I was field researching all the time. I
was fascinated my ads, my own son, my little boy.
He had a collection of apps that you know, I mean,
most people never see a collection of apt uh. And
but I was now touching the antlers on the head

(01:12:47):
of an animal that had just and that was completely
totally different feeling to me. And I remember those things
as they're far more important than anything in terms of
you know, the shooting or that even the tracking, any

(01:13:12):
of those kinds of things. It was I possessed and
now I could, surely I could. I could see and
learn and feel things about these animals which I I
just could not when I watched them and they were
far away from me, and they were living the lives
that they ordinarily. And you know one far more recently,

(01:13:37):
you know the cow elp that I took in in
New Mexico two years ago. I remember we had filmed this,
of course, but I remember she had died. It was
a very good shot, went right through one along and
took a part. She just it was only once and
she went a short distance and died. But of course

(01:14:00):
it was enough power missile. Some bloods push back out
through and you know, touch the grass as we were
as we walked towards her. There wasn't much blood, but
there was enough that you could see it on the grass.
And this is again, you know, kind of an expression
of of her similarity to me. And therefore, of course

(01:14:26):
there was never any questions. I would send all of
them all the way back from New Mexico to where
I live on the island of Newfoundland, eastern most piece
of ground on the North American content. And I'm not
going to tell you or any listener about what it
costs me to get that meat back from Mexico, but

(01:14:49):
I can tell you that I was very careful about
using every ounce of that meat. Believe so um. For me,
it's just part of the it's part of the ritual.
And I often regret even fishing. You know, I was
a fanatical trout fishing, especially as a little boy. Certain

(01:15:12):
we lived that. I mean, I still get emotional in
the spring the snow starts to a blade. The water
runs heavy in small brooks, and it's black. The water
is black and springs with the snow covering it. It
looks black, and it's not like any other time of
the year. And you know, but you know, sometimes when

(01:15:34):
I would get home and talking again five six seven
years of age, often the woods fishing, because that's the
lifestyle we had. Um Sometimes when I would get home
and I take my trout off, my little skiverer, which
was only a little piece of tree that I caught
leaves on on, I still, you know, wish that they

(01:15:58):
would simply come to life in and of course they couldn't.
And and I was adamant even then that they had
to be eaten. Of course my mother, my mother was
Irish from Ireland, every citizen to consequence, and you know,
she she sometimes helped us clean them. Of course, if

(01:16:19):
she saw worms and then their stomach like tape or
something like that, well that was it neat. And this
was always a terrible row, because h the idea of
throwing them out was just terrible. Uh. And but you know,

(01:16:43):
so I suppose for me the leanings were there, for
you know, not many children at five years of age.
When I was turned six when this happened. Actually, when
I turned six, my father and mother asked me what
I would like to have my birthday. And I was
living another small community at that time, and I told

(01:17:05):
him hands. So for my birthday, my father and small
hand built. I had my own hands and m h
and they were incredibly important to me collect the reggs.
And of course it was a common practice that we
take hands and we killed them to eat those particulars

(01:17:28):
that I possessed, that I own. Ah, no one was
allowed to take. So it's a you know, at what
point then, did my my inclinations, my Irish Celtic genetics
and my Newfoundland mixtures, uh, my mother's fantastic storytelling the

(01:17:57):
fairies and banshees and what him in the darkness and
so on and so forth, and the deep Catholicism of
my opening, all of that kind of religious mystery and
so on. At what point all of that came together?
Lifestyle essentially a young ape free to do whatever they

(01:18:17):
wanted in the natural world. How did that all come together?
I don't know, let's come together. It did. Pieces of
the ultimate puzzle, you know, that that make each one
of us that, Yeah, I think that's it's good to hear.
I I've heard you, you know, talk personally about your
own experiences some but um, it's it's nice to hear

(01:18:41):
you relate those things. And I'm sure everyone listening has
those moments that they remember as a child. But also
I would I would be very unashamed to say that
I have a four year old son and I watched
closely how he deals with fishing. He's not yet gone hunting,
but we we have fished quite a lot, and he
I always ask him when we catch a fish, would

(01:19:01):
you like to throw it back? Or would you like
to eat it? And he never says throw it back.
He never once has said let's throw this fish back.
He wants to possess it, and he's very proud of
that possession. And then ultimately that leads us to something

(01:19:22):
I know we we all quite often talked about, but
I want to cover here, of course, is to this
idea of how we then translate that possession to food.
And I think it food becomes kind of the intersection
of many of the topics that we've already talked about
and we'll go on to talk about because it because
there is an element of ceremonial nature of eating an

(01:19:43):
animal that you've killed, right. There is honor there, there
is possession. There, there's many of the things we've talked about.
There's the practical elements of cooking it and making it
taste good and transforming it. From our friend Ryan Callahan
Offense says, the transformation from a living animal to what's
on your plate, it's in and of itself. Watching and

(01:20:04):
being part of that transformation in and of itself changes
how you think of food because you understand where that
thing came from and what it where it lived, and
how it made it and what it ate. HM. Take
us to the to the moment where now you have

(01:20:25):
this food, we've we've kind of gone from the possession
to the honor, and now we're we're consuming the flesh
of these animals. How do you conceptualize that? Um, that
part of it and how it plays into what we
already talked about. Well, UM, I think all of human
beings have some level of understanding of what the higher

(01:20:51):
order uses of things are UM, and this translates to
many aspects of the human condition. And while the taking
of animal's life can be done for other reasons and

(01:21:15):
ceremonial reasons are the reasons of you know, it's part
of an experience, and people wish to have memorability of that,
such as ants on the wall. B. Meanwhile, there may
be a variety of of of any products if you
will form the counting experience. I don't think anyone in

(01:21:40):
the world would be able to argue that the consumption
of that animal possessed is the most profound and the
most justified and the most justifiable reason for lethal possession.

(01:22:08):
If you can capture an animal without killing, all these
dynamics change. But if you possess an animal through its
death mediated by your own hand, then the idea of
consuming that animal, Yes, is this has this kind of

(01:22:33):
profound beauty for two reasons. At least One is that
food is a very unique thing in a lot of species.
In a lot of species, food is used in ceremonial fashion,
for example, helping feed a mate in a wide variety

(01:22:58):
of species c bird carnivals, etcetera. Expa um. In our
particular species, this is taken to a whole other level,
and you know, we turn it into family gathers. We
talked about it in terms that are usually reserved for

(01:23:20):
our feelings to one another. You know, I think I
love food and the way we talk about tastes and
how we travel the world to look for ingredients that
can be part of foods, foods that are alien to
our own cultures but which we wish to experience. Um.
They are part of our ceremonies of death at funerals
and funeral rights. They are part of the origins of

(01:23:43):
life and births and so on and so forth, and
any number of religious ceremonies in any number of religions
around the world. They are the family dinners that you
make people. They are the special dinners that take on
special days like New Year's Day or or or or
any particular one you might choose from a particular culture.

(01:24:06):
They even make football games greater because you know, you
you cook on your tailgate and you have is these
massive parts all around food, all around food. You know,
so so food is it is? It is? It in
incredibly important thing to human beings and the someone wants
said to be Shane. If you want to be famous,
write a book, read a cookbook. You know, then that's

(01:24:29):
that's the way to fame. It really is an extraordinarily
powerful psychological and physical reality. No. Originally, the only way
we acquired fired food was through hunting and gathering and scavenged.
And of course, the most most nutritious of all the

(01:24:51):
things we get, the thing that we give us the
biggest nutritional bang for our box, or to speak, it
was the hunted apple. The animal rotea were broken and
set free by fire and giving us an explosion of
nutrition that nothing else would really equal at the time
per unit um. And of course we came to understand,

(01:25:18):
because we knew the importance of food to our own bodies,
that when we consumed things, when we consumed living things,
we killed they were what they were giving us the
most precious thing any human pain can possess. They were
giving us life. And so now there was this inseparability

(01:25:43):
between the lives and the landscapes, the behaviors and the
knowledge and the way of life of the animal and
our own way of life. This is an intimacy that
brings everything together. It brings our relationship to them, their

(01:26:07):
relationship to us, and the understanding amongst us of all
of the interrelationships between all animals. The consumption of a
wild thing is uniquely positioned in this pantheon of cultural considerations, because,

(01:26:28):
as we have shared before, I am certain the value
that is placed on the harvest of the wild thing
is always in so many, so many important dimensions, is
always different, more nuanced, more enhanced, more more sophisticated than

(01:26:53):
if we are dealing with something that is not violent.
And this goes to our traditions of sharing the things
we take from the wild with one another, which completely
totally recapitulates the original lifestyle beings Santer gathers and brings
it forward into century where you know, machines are crawling

(01:27:18):
over Mars at our direction and sending images back to us.
And yet that original power of our relationship towards wild
things as the sources of our own sustenance is carried
forward with a profound, profound importance today. And you may

(01:27:43):
be a banker working in Philadelphia, or you may be
a business owner operating in Zula, Montana. Who might be
a medical doctor working in uh San Francisco. But something
about things taken from the wild and turned into food,

(01:28:06):
but always bring something unique and special to your experience.
You give people the choice between a pen raise salmon
and one taken at some point in his journey through
the cold wide expanses of the ocean, and they will

(01:28:26):
take the letter very good reasons, many reasons, and ultimately
for cultural and evolutionary reasons that they know, uh, they
take the best when they take from the wild. Yeah,
and that's as you mentioned there, it sparked something in

(01:28:48):
you when you take part in that. For sure, it
sparked something in you that's very biological. It feels that
feels like it reaches back in time and in many ways.
And I know because of your passion for for wild
food and you're under and your I know, you're broader
pursuit of understanding of how it affects our world and
how it affects you know, every part of not only

(01:29:10):
our culture and society, but the economics of of some
of the food systems that we have. That you've you
started the wild Harvest initiative. And it's been sometime since
you you began that journey years to three years or
has it been longer than that? Longer than that, it's
almost almost four Can you explain kind of you know,

(01:29:31):
the wild Harvest initiative I think is you I know,
for a fact, looking at the landscape and hunting especially
but in conservation more holy that the Wild Harvest Initiatives
is very unique in what it's trying to do. There's
not much out there like it. And hence, I think
for for many reasons, but for that one, because it
is so unique and what it what it's trying to achieve,

(01:29:52):
it's important for us for listeners of this show to
understand and to hear you articulate kind of the origin
story of of the Wild Harvest Initiative. There can you
give folks just the background there and then and then
I want to discuss some of the some of the developments,
and then the future of of the initiative. Yeah, it's um.

(01:30:12):
You know a lot of people know me for my
work in carnival research, or they know me for my
work on the North American model, and um, but I
really do believe that the Wild Harvest Initiative is probably
for me at least the most important thing that I've
ever taken, because it actually brings together all of these

(01:30:34):
things we have been discussing them. Yeah, that's more. Besides,
I want people to care about nature, and I want
them to care about nature and some personal kind of
not not not in something that's fine too. But you
know that's sort of smaller. I want the average citizens,

(01:30:55):
so to speak, you know, whatever that means. But you
know what, I want the average citizen and all walks
of life, all creeds and colors, to care about the
natural world. And we have to find some way to
make it more important to more people because right now,

(01:31:17):
of all the distance between us and nature that has occurred,
too few people care. Too few people care in order
for us to keep what everyone should care. And we
have to change that equation. And I've published in probably
twenty five review journals, published book chapters and edited books

(01:31:41):
and monographs, written seventy five articles or something for Sports
and Field and many other outlets and so on. So
but my personal belief is that we have to find
some way for people to come to nature naturally. Um.

(01:32:01):
You know a lot of people place a great store
on you know, scientific knowledge and academic pursuits and so
on and so forth. You know, Jonathan Jonathan Swift told
us centuries ago that that you cannot reason the human
being into something, or you you and you certainly cannot

(01:32:21):
reason them out of something unless first they have been
reasoned into it, if you know what I mean. They
this idea that empirical knowledge will just fix it all
is very simplistic. And so I started to think about
what could this be and what could it be that

(01:32:41):
could transcend everything, all the divide and all the social
stratis and all these kinds of things. And I landed
on this idea of food. And I was aware, of
course that in our world today, the idea of human health,
the idea of healthy food, understanding the origins of our food,

(01:33:02):
the idea of fitness and long jevit, living law and
living healthy was it was a real social phenomenal. M
So I said, well, what about we started to really
think about wildlfe food once again. And yes, there were
the arguments against it. You know, this is modern North America,

(01:33:22):
you know, not living any longer in the such and
such time, and you know it's a it's a recreational
pastime and all these kinds of things. And well, well,
hold on, let's take a look at this. Let's see
how big this is, and see how big it is
for the forty five million people hunting fish recreationally in
Canada the United States each year. Let's let's just see

(01:33:43):
if this is such an insignificant So my idea was
to compile all of the data existing on the harvest
of wildlife and fish by recreational users only in Canada
and the United States, and to therefore the number of
animals we harvest off the land in both countries, of

(01:34:06):
all species, and the amount of food that is generated
by all of that harvesting. And of course this had
never been done before. It had never been done in
the history of North America, never been done in the
history of the United States or Canada, and it had
never been done anywhere in the world. I came to
eventually realized, and my idea is to show people the

(01:34:32):
number of incredibly healthy meals that we currently are sustainably
harvesting from the private and public lands of Canada and
the States, and to ask them to think about what
we might be able to produce if we started to

(01:34:55):
think about natural systems and natural habitants as food reservoirs,
as health reservoirs for people, and of course that not
only provide food, but also provide running, clear clean water,
clean air, and so on and so forth. So I
have amassed the largest database in the world, and this
um for four years and with great support a lot

(01:35:18):
of state agencies and NGOs and industry leaders, so on
and so forth, and there is absolutely nothing like it.
We have lots of efforts out there to talk about
game meat and have game dinners and all those ands
and so on and so forth, and that's all good
and it's all needed, but at some point in time

(01:35:39):
we need powerful data to influence policy and political decisions
about the lands that support the wildlife of our countries.
And if we can make people understand that these are
reservo hours of health, these lands, and that we are

(01:36:04):
all entitled to powers in a sustainable way products from
those lands, then I think we can make a real
difference in how people think about the importance of nature.
So we also, of course, in providing this information, we're

(01:36:26):
going to say how much it's worth. So if we
have billions and pounds we do billions and billions of
pounds is incredibly healthy food and kicking around through our
home economies, how much is that worth if people had
to go and buy that. Because people like to have
a price tag, they want to know how much it's worth.

(01:36:48):
So we are going to tell them exactly how much
be worth in terms of domestic equivalents such as beef
for chicken, you know, hogs and so on, and in
fact much it would be worth as especially food item
if you had to go buy it at a store
or at a mark something in this nature. And then

(01:37:09):
we're going to take that value, which is in the many,
many billions of dollars, and we're going to add that
to the other values of these activities in terms of employment,
in terms of sales tax revenues, you know, in terms
of all those other benefits, employment generation and so on
and so forth that has been associated with the hunting

(01:37:31):
an angelic world. And we're going to add this massive
food value, which again no one has ever conceived of doing.
And finally we're going to give the counter factual, which
is to say, to be okay, let's say we stop
these activities now today, including the new activities that have

(01:37:55):
started both our countries as a result of covide, where
people are desperately on fish and spend time on the outdoors.
Let's say we stop these activities. What is it going
to cost in terms of the land that must be taken,
The wild life habitat must be taken further to provide
both ranging space for domestic animals and also to raise

(01:38:20):
the crops that we use, of course largely to feed them,
the wheats and the corns and someone and so forth.
And how much fossil fuel will that require, and how
much fertilizer and how much insecticide, etcetera, etcetera, etc. And
let me add beIN that that's not to condemn what's
going on in agriculture. We need industrial agriculture, of course
we do. And that's getting better and better and better

(01:38:42):
in a lot of ways all the time, particularly for cattle.
People are doing great things with cattle and with sheep um.
But I want people to know that there is actually
a source of wild flood and of what and not
only the meat and the fish, but while beares, while fruits,

(01:39:03):
while fungi or mushrooms, while rices, medicinal plants shed, antlers, firewood,
all these kinds of things. And so the wild harvest
initiative is this expansive idea void up by data. But
we can tell you what it's worth in Nebraska, where
we can tell you what it's worth in Alberta, where

(01:39:23):
we can tell you what elk are, how much elk
is generating, how much food and wild turkeys that you're
hunting now how much that how much they are providing
to the world. And so we now have this database, um,
and we are working on equivalence. We've come out with
certain amounts of information from this this this activity already.

(01:39:46):
We're now working with a public relations firm to come
out with a fairly sophisticated slow release of this data
so that it's you know, doesn't come out in one
big arm, so that people can digest it. And the
hope wills that we are going to build an alliance
of people who harvest from nature, fishermen, the hunter, the

(01:40:09):
berry the fruit gathering, the mushroom gathering. It isn't apply
all these people who take things from the wild and
bring them together and have them represent a component of
our societies, and then also encourage them to speak with
one voice, because these lands that provide these products are

(01:40:31):
the same lands in all cases. And the final thing
that we are doing each of these is among numantal
tasks you might be aware. Um. The other thing we're
doing is we're running surveys in states where we are
asking the hunter's first, and we will do but the
hunters first, how much of their food they share, who

(01:40:56):
they share it? With why they share it with people,
because we want to also demonstrate that the people who
live this lifestyle today do exactly the same thing that
we did as hunter gatherers through the long arc of
our evolutionary history. We shared. Not everyone hunted their own food,

(01:41:22):
we did it together and we shared it with those
who were not with us at And you and I
both know that that is a phenomenon of the hunting
anglic world that we share. But it's also true of
the berry picker and the fruit picker, and the fungi
gatherer and so on. We are condemned to share, but

(01:41:43):
we harvest from the wild, and this also unites us
is wide consortium with people who are harvesting. We are
united and only by the knowledge we gain, the talents
we have, the things we sue in that same space
of land. We are also united by this desire to

(01:42:06):
share what we have. When your grandmother bakes pie made
from wild berries gathered by her rancho, that pie hasn't
that so far beyond one that is bought in a
store that it is immeasurable? Yeah? Yeah, the power in

(01:42:30):
that man, it's it's an aid. And I feel, I
feel your passion for it when you speak as always
with everything that you say, and um man, I really
I really appreciate it. I've been thinking that's one of
the reasons I reached out to you. One. I enjoy
our conversations, but I wanted to get an update about
the data that you've been compiling. Um I may go

(01:42:53):
so far as to ask you if there's anything in it.
You don't want to break any news on this podcast
and share some data that maybe you haven't. But beyond yeah,
I mean, what I can what I can tell you
is that even if you look at I mean, we
obviously have a strategy for coming out with this information,
and we continue to build the database. As a matter

(01:43:13):
of fact, we had a series of meetings with a
big database company today. This has become a very big thing.
Um it's and it may well soon take root in
Africa and discussions about that. Um so. But anyway, it
has become a very big thing. But even if you

(01:43:34):
look at you know, some of the some of the
statistics that we have, I mean, you look at a
species like white tailed deer that in and of itself
is providing between maybe one and a half and two
billion meals billion the b you know, you look at
a circumstance where you look at a circumstance where turkeys

(01:43:58):
which you are which would you are pursuing now that
that that are contributing somewhere around twenty million meals based
on you know, six our servings of that animal, I mean,
and you add that up across all the species that
we are hunting, and all the fish that we are fishing,
and and then all the other natural foods that we
are gathering. This is no side show. This is this

(01:44:21):
is not parochial, you know, throwback. This is not this
is not immaterial. And for the individual families that are
harvesting this, it's absolutely vital to their home economy, to
the small communities in which they live. It is vital
to those communities. And obviously it has enormous implications for
the sustainability of of rural people that rural local livelihoods

(01:44:44):
and so on and so forth. And this is this
is the lifeblood of nations, the character of the people
who live in those circumstances, and and and therefore, you know,
we have to look at this as not just oh,
you know, there's been oh yeah, he's unto you know,
he's a bit of a black. Oh, he goes out,
you know, he likes to hunt turkey expense two weeks,
run around South Dakota, you know, chasing, chasing these these

(01:45:06):
these gobbly birds. It's it's much more, it's much, much,
much more than that. And of course eventually, eventually, you know,
you look at something like in Texas where we did
the sharing survey, and you find out, you know, that
nine of the hunters in that state share their food.

(01:45:28):
But then you begin to ask, well, well, how much
of their harvest do they share? They share about forty
three percent of it, and they actually share it with
more people outside their homes three point seven million people
outside their homes than they do inside their homes, which
accounts for another two point one million people like these

(01:45:49):
are These are big numbers. Now you multiply them across
every state in the United States of America, and you
multiply that across every province in Canada. I am on
a mission to convince American policy and political leaders that
we ought to be looking at landscapes as food and
health reservoirs, and whether it's public or private land, we

(01:46:11):
should be looking at this to the best of our
abilities with the most sensible and sensitive policies that we
can come up with instead of only looking at land
as something undeveloped, you know, something that we need to
do something else with. And furthermore, because of the science
of wildlife management is so sophisticated today compared to what
it was, let's say, turn of the twentieth century or

(01:46:33):
the turn of the nineteenth century. Just imagine if we
applied our wildlife management science and our forestry science two
managing landscapes for food production wild food production? How much
do you think we could It would be absolutely annoyst
So if there is a new mission for Shane Mahoney,

(01:46:54):
it is to get our two countries, and our political
leaderships and our NGEO is in our state governments and
our whoever the hell we can find, to actually start
advocating for an entirely new management system for landscapes, one
that ultimately is based on human health and food provisioning. Well,

(01:47:19):
that's a as you well know, it's a very ambitious endeavor.
But I think this is you are the exact person
to take on such a broad challenge. Um, and I
know that there are challenges in exploring something so vast
across our even just our continent. So what challenges have
you run into and what things do you you know,

(01:47:40):
what hurdles are you overcoming, and how do you feel
like you push forward into the future to get to
this this moment where you all to have this case
that you can state, um what they think that I
think there are practical challenges, you know, there's challenges of
the resources that Conservation Visions has to mobile. As this
monster's activity, we could use ten times the money and

(01:48:03):
support that's that's out there. God knows if any industry
or NGOs or other people are listening and they what
they believe in this kind of a cause, you know,
we can use that because of course accuses more people
and more more materials, more social profile, more all the
things that are out there. Uh. I think the other
thing that's a that's a real challenge, of course, is

(01:48:24):
we have to find a way. It's it's it's long term, right.
You cannot been just come out with something and throw
it out there in press release or write in one
article in magazine and hey, that's great, you know that's
done that stating walk away. It's this is this is
a matter just like the North American Model concept. It
has to be continuously dripped out as have to find

(01:48:48):
new audiences, new venues, new spokespeople's new supporters for this
kind of activity, you know, and they have to come
from all walks of life. As I said, they have
to be businessman and they have to be you know,
observation NGOs, and they have to be hunting organizations. They
had to be have to be everything the medical profession
and so on and so forth which should be more
involved in this than they are. So you know that

(01:49:11):
that's that's a that's a challenge how to how to
keep people committed to understanding that I have to give
it over the long term. If the discussions on the
North American Model had in two years after we first
started to talk about it, after Dr Geist you know,
came up the concept. If I started speaking about that
in the United States for a year and then said, Okay,

(01:49:32):
but that's it, I'm gonna talk about that. Do you
really think that that would be invented in our systems? Yeah?
Do do you think this is an evolution of the
North American model or or a bolt on an addition
to it? How would you describe it in relation to
the model. That's a really that's a really good question.
That's a lot of questions, but that's a really cool

(01:49:53):
because what I see this being is the discovery of
a pround of a profound truth within myself and within
all people who engage with nature and particularly engage with
nature in the food acquisition way all over the world,

(01:50:14):
not just in word, and in a way it is
not so much an evolution of the model, although it
has deep direct implications and relevancies to the model, as
you won't clearly see um because it deals with hunting
and angling and all those things of course, evaluations of

(01:50:36):
the resource and so forth management. But in a way
I would look at it in reverse. I think to
some extent, this issue is the start of the model
in a way interesting. You know, we we wanted to

(01:50:56):
protect wildlife that was disappearing, and we wanted to find
ways to to be really effective in doing that. And
part of the motivation, of course for keeping wildlife with
us was of course to be able to harvest it
and to and to hunt it and to fish, and
of course there was always a huge component of that

(01:51:19):
that was about food. We didn't talk about it so
much that way, but that's what it was about. I mean,
we didn't we didn't create the model and all its
policies and laws and then say we'll go out, out,
out and out and then just leave the animals in
every single state and province development in the model rules, regulations,
laws that said you cannot waste that animal. You know,

(01:51:41):
you take that meat out and you use it in
some form of fashion. So in a way, this was
this was the in some ways, it was at the
very origins of the moment. But we never talked about
you know, we talked about game laws, we talked about regulations,
and we talked about hunting clubs, and we talked about habitats,

(01:52:02):
we talked all around it, but we never talked about
this idea of food. And of course the North American
model itself is in a way just a modern part
of the long history of humanity's engagement with the natural
world for consumption, for the gathering food, capture of animals,

(01:52:29):
the possession of animals, and so on and so forth,
and so in some ways it goes way way back
before the model. Mhm um. So I don't see it
as so much an outcome of the model, although I
know why you asked that question. I almost see it
as something that was at the origin of the model,

(01:52:53):
but we had to go back to the beginnings to
really think about Yeah, and it will as profound questions
as it gains more and more influence. But and as
we do the surveys in Arizona and in Texas and
in Wisconsin and in Nevada, which boys to do now, uh,

(01:53:15):
you know, we will have so much information to bring
to people. I think it is going to raise issues
around the model, like, well, how how do we gain
access to all this great meat? If I'm not a hunter?
Should I be able to buy that? Not everybody's going

(01:53:36):
to hunter and angler and things of that nature. So
it will it will challenge certain principles of the model
in certain ways. And of course that's a good thing.
That's a that's a really good thing. The most important
things that the model is about value wildlife. That's ultimately
what it was about. Sprang from that. We will not
lose it. We had to give it a value. And

(01:53:57):
this whole wild Harvest admission is about talking about giving
wildlife of value that no one has ever quantified before, ever,
ever in the history of the model. I love that
you say it that way with value, you know, because
there is as we've talked about, there's political like this
would add a political value to to wildlife and wild
places that they don't currently have. It would add to

(01:54:20):
and butcher's the cultural value that that wildlife and hunting
and wild food share. I mean, just you can add
you know, economical value. Obviously you're really just kind of
codifying and packaging up what's what's already there. Um. But
I really do appreciate as as as I tell a
lot of people that listen to this show and that
are um that participate actively in what we do. The

(01:54:44):
North American model has become, you know, the the guardrails
for how I think about many things within our space.
And uh, I've tried to describe it in many ways,
Shane and I used to think it kind of I
used to look at it as kind of a bit
of the Bible, like the Acre Text, and then I
didn't think that was giving it the credit it deserved,
because it's not meant to be a sacred text, right

(01:55:06):
It's it's meant to be it's meant to be a
value system and explanation of value system and the practical
application of said value system, you know, and and um man,
I've I've learned a lot over our time, folks that
you can go back and listen to Shane and I
did I believe it was a two part podcast. It
might have been years ago now, um on in the
North American model, Uh, we'd probably go more two or

(01:55:28):
three more hours just talking about that. But what we have,
what I know you mentioned to me a while back,
like the seminal conversation or or Shane's explanation of the model,
all encapsulated in those earlier podcasts, So you can always
go even when the show ends, you can always return
back to those um to me, Shane, These these conversations
become you know, time capsules for for where we were

(01:55:51):
over these last three years, both personally and professionally, and
then where our community has has has gone. So, um,
where can people we can find the wild Harvest initiative
through conservation visions? But specifically, what would you ask people
to do if they're interested in neither learning about it,
participating giving I mean, I think they should just really

(01:56:12):
get in touch with us, because we are welcoming new
partners all the time, even in this COVID year. Um,
you know, the State of Alaska, the Alastaficient Game Department,
the State of Wyoming, um New Mexico Wildlife Federation. And
now we have a number of conversations going on with

(01:56:32):
very interesting new businesses that had nothing to do with
the hunting space at all, which is really encouraging. And
with some international funders now have expressed discovered us and
expecially interested in doing something. Um. You know, we are
welcoming new partners, new supporters, and we want them to

(01:56:53):
be diverse. So if there's a medical doctor who we
know the medical benefits of course of time outdoors and
wat foods and so on and so forth, anyone can
simply reach out to us and it can be just
for a conversation, h or it can be to figure
out how they can uh, you know, personally get involved.

(01:57:16):
And I think I'll turn this this this back on
you a little bit man. Uh. You know, you have
a lot of connections, you know, a lot of organizations
and a lot of individuals. I'd ask you to encourage
them to reach out to us too and talk to
us about you know, and see there's many ways to
get involved at many different levels. And if this is

(01:57:38):
going to succeed. You know it's going to succeed, largely
because the alliance that we've built around is so new,
intriguing and inclusive that no political aisle is going to
be too wide for it to jump. Yeah, well I can.
I can leave this conversation, um our last on on

(01:58:00):
the Hunting Collective, promising you that I will put you know,
the powers that I have limited or as broad as
they may be, into into not only having this conversation
and letting people know about it, but but pushing people
to contact you and ask you questions and and look
at the results when they start to roll out. UM.
I know that I've been happy to see back Hunt

(01:58:21):
your hunters and anglers getting involved with you as I
sit on the board there. That's been something that's been
super important to me, and I'm glad. I am glad
that they have have stepped up in the way that
they have and that allowed you a voice and also
been a partner of yours. So we'll continue to to
push where we can. Um But Shane, as always, we

(01:58:42):
could go hours more, but um, I have to actually
go and kill a turkey if if, if you allow
me that absolutely I wouldn't keep any mad from that,
and just remember to honor that fine bird when he stops.
I have absolutely will. Yeah, it's it's funny. I'll leave

(01:59:02):
you with that. This isn't something that I've been able
to really self reflect on until recently, that when I
shoot an animal and it's dying, I have, like I
all emotion kind of leaves me. I get into a
state of calm and weird almost sedation that I don't

(01:59:24):
quite understand. I will, I want to celebrate and then
do celebrate, you know, the achievement. Uh, and then and
then go on about the work of honoring the bird
and taking the meat. But even today when I shot
I shot turkey this morning, and even today it was
like there's like a weird sedation to to my own

(01:59:47):
feeling when something dies. And I don't know that it's
overly emotional or it's sad. I'm not sure I really
understand it, to be quite quite honest with you, Um,
but it's but it's interesting that that's my I own, Yeah,
that's my own emotional state when something like that happens. UM,
continue to explore it. Yeah, well, I mean it's a

(02:00:09):
long life. There's lots of more I think the important
thing is to reflect on it too, you know. I
mean there's a there's a basic difference often between you know,
what might be equally sensitive and equally intelligent the ampathetic
human beings. Uh, there's one kind. You know. That sounds

(02:00:32):
terrible because there are certain people who can live through
and experience emotional events and and be very much in
the moment aware of the specialness of But there are
other people who could go through those same events and

(02:00:53):
become really reflective. These are the poets. And uh, not
all poets, right, poet really, some poets simply live poetic life.
So that's what I would wish for you men, that
you go forward to live poetic Yeah. Well, cheers cheers

(02:01:17):
to that, Cheers to a poetic life. Shane Mahoney, thank
you as always for joining us. You're a special person.
You're important not only to me but to our community,
and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you.
And UM will continue to work together hopefully in the
future on many many things, UM. And and congratulations on
how far you've gotten with a wild Harvest initiative. And

(02:01:38):
and UM we'll be working together, I know, to push
that forward. So thank you. Once again. Thank you very
much man, Thank you care of yourself, all of us.
Bye bye bye. That's it. That's all another episode the

(02:02:00):
Hunting Collective in the books. I am always thankful for
guys like Shane Mahoney, for Van Fawsen, anyone out there
who cares about wild places and conservation and the animals
we chase. That is why I'm here, That's why we
are here, presumably, and um, it makes me happy that
we can do it for a few more weeks. Phil,

(02:02:21):
did you get any messages from our our listeners after
the announcement last week? I did. Yeah, I heard from
Luke Reeves. A few other people may be rich. Um,
just yeah, it means a lot. I told him, you know,
I appreciate it. Thanks a time for listening and for
being such vibrant members of the community. Um. And I
also just got one more Instagram post from about five

(02:02:42):
minutes ago saying a comment on your latest Turkey picture,
saying why doesn't Phil have one yet? Well, we've made
him wait quite a long time, but coming up here
in a couple of weeks, you're gonna get it. Me
and Phil are gonna go out in the woods and
we're gonna wrap up this podcas guests, and the only
way that I could figure out how which is to

(02:03:03):
take him turkey hunting and get him a turkey. Uh.
So you know, stick and stay for that. We get
a couple more episodes to go. I'm excited about the
content we're gonna put out. I just wanted to say,
uh me or what Phil said there a little bit
and thank all of you for the well wishes, the
heartfelt gratitude, all the things that came in over the

(02:03:24):
last seven days. I've been Turkey Hunton, so I haven't
been as connected as I would want to be, but
I have seen all the messages, um, all the well
wishes and and felt that. And I really do appreciate
everybody for for sticking with us for a hundred and
seventy some odd episodes. UM. There's no perfect ending for anything,
uh this podcast included UM. But everything has to end,

(02:03:47):
and so we're gonna make it the best we can
for the weeks we have left, and I will I
would extend my gratitude and thanks back to all of
you who have listened for all these years, who have
been a part of these conversations and have continued to
support us, and I'm sure we'll continue to support us
in the years to come as uh as my career
and Fill's career at Meat Eater and likely beyond. What

(02:04:12):
was that Phil's career and then that caused you a career? Well,
because you're gonna become a famous hunter after you kill
a turkey. That's right, Okay, I think your engineer days
could be over. Maybe fill the hunter at the end
of it all. You never really know, um, but yeah,
I really there's there's not much more I can say
other than thank you. Um. It's it's gonna be hard

(02:04:33):
to see this thing in this is as I said
last week, it's a big part of me. It's a
big part of my life. Um. I've I've had I've had,
you know, watch my kids be raised while we were
recording this. Um. And maybe one day they'll they'll listen
back to it and they'll get kind of a time
capsule at these three years and and all of our lives.
My life fills life a little bit to listen back

(02:04:55):
to these episodes and learn about where we were and
what we were thinking during these crazy years. Pandemics and
and my second child being born and all the things
that life events that have happened during this show and
UM and it you know it won't go away. So
if everybody that asks Meat Eater will keep the show up,
all on seventy seven episodes will remain and you can

(02:05:17):
listen to them whenever you like, uh and get and
relive some of the cool conversation we've had over the
last three years. So again, a heartfelt thank you to everybody, UM,
to every listener, and especially you know, I want to
if you'll, you'll let me feel I want to say
thank you to one specific listener. Is that okay? Of course? So, uh,

(02:05:40):
my dad listens to this podcast every week and we
talked about it quite often, and we always talk about
kind of how our dad's, many of us our dad's
got us into hunting, how they kind of shepherd us
into this lifestyle that's pursuits. But I have to just
thank my dad not only for um being you know,
my hero and the person I look up to, but

(02:06:01):
for pushing me to do the best I can with
everything in life and just being in it with me.
I was explaining this to some of the other day.
You know, when you're a parent and you feel like
your parents or you're you're in it with your kids.
You're you're in it for the ups and the downs,
the highs and the lows, the good times and the
bad times. You're just invested in their life. And I

(02:06:24):
feel like my dad is right there with me for
all the things that I've happened to me over the years,
this podcast being one of them, and um, he was
the reason, one of the reasons that got started. And
if I had one listener and it was him, that
would be the happiest I could be. So I want
to say thank you, Dad, I love you, and we'll

(02:06:45):
see you next week. On The Hunting Collective, say Bye Phil,
Goodbye your Gun and turning your Bow, Where the Hunt
clipt Show and calling Hunters New and all the Hunt
Collected Show, Working picking Shuttle or working bening Han. We
congregate nice lovers early la Bibul and we're focused. We're

(02:07:09):
just living for the search and dreaming of the fire
and a salty Gilburn. But we ain't coming back un
till it's colden Lake taking its slow. So week she
straight clean your gun to your bowl, Where the Hunt
Gleggs Show, Calling Hunters New and all, Ain't no cold

(02:07:30):
onime told,

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 174: Trek for Turkeys 2021, Thank You Dad, and the Desire to Possess Animals with Shane Mahoney

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Ep. 174: Trek for Turkeys 2021, Thank You Dad, and the Desire to Possess Animals with Shane Mahoney

On Purpose with Jay Shetty