January 18, 2023 • 30 mins
In this episode, we’re given the stunning opportunity to hear from accused father, Billy Wagner. But just how do these shocking recordings play into the case against his son, George Wagner IV?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
And I know a a bunch of you know, Billy sees
something like that, never compasioning satisfaction in sealteen to six,
When are they going to point to George being part
of this conspiracy? Hannah replies, I won't sign papers. Ever,
it won't happen. They will have to kill me first.
(00:27):
This is the piked and massacre Return to Pike County
season four, episode twelve, Closing in on the Wagners. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kati's Studios with Stephanie
Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's the middle of George Wagner
the Fourth trial. It's important to note that George Wagner
(00:47):
the Fourth, along with his father Billy Wagner, whose trial
is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and have pleaded not guilty
to all charges. So far, there's been hours of testimony
by investigators relatives that have painted a very real portrait
of what the crime scenes look like. But while prosecutors
have laid out the grisly details of the murderers, they
(01:09):
have yet to connect George Wagner the Fourth to the killings.
Stake cidifications to state ready to call another witnesses special
Prosecutor an Jacineppa call special Agent John Jenkins of the
Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigations more commonly known as the BCI.
Jenkins sports a trimmed goatee and looks every bit the
(01:31):
veteran investigator he is. In twenty sixteen, just four months
after the brutal murders, Jenkins interviewed the Wagner family's father, Billy.
You can find Billy Wagner's raw audio of his conversation
with special agents on our Apple Plus True Crime subscription page.
A link to that page is included in this episode's description.
(01:56):
Today's attention turned to a police interview with the defendant's father, Billy.
He was best friends with one of the victims, Chris Rodin.
I mean his interview, he provides some insights that could
not only help the prosecution, but could also be useful
for the defense. BCI agents had spent months trying to
speak to Billy Wagner. Jenkins testified that Wagner seemed to
(02:17):
be avoiding them. We want to talk to him because
of the fact of his relationship with and Hannah, but
also weird started to at this time get tips and
leads that there might have been some issues with some
custody references, and that task became difficult due to the
fact that when we stopped by the house, Billy wasn't
(02:40):
always there. In September of twenty sixteen, BCI agents finally
tracked down Billy Wagner outside a grocery store and was
this interview with Billy Wagner recorded. Yes, it was audio recorded.
It's this time you run. I would like to play
that recording for the jury. I just want to talk
(03:01):
with you about the road and murders, okay, And so
you know, we've been out talking with people, you know,
all kinds of you know, tips get called in our
office and all that, and so your name has come
up and you know, and tips and things like that.
So we just want to tie I find whatever you
want to. Just be honest with us. I'll tell you
(03:22):
whatever I can do to help get out. As the
audio recordings began, Jenkins, wearing a blue blazer and white shirt,
lowered his head and sat listening to the conversation. Billy
Wagner was first asked about his relationship with Chris Rodin. Sr.
Wagner insisted he and victim Chris Rodin were very close.
(03:42):
You know, Chris was my best friend, all right, manaham,
you know we run around all the time. But I
want to talk about Chris. Chris, don't tell her. He
didn't tell nobody. Nothing can kenviy the business to yourself.
And I want to tell you straight up, I don't
care what he done. He was my friend. He done
everything for me, you know. And Chris rodup I mean
scribes for everything. He had worked his ass off and
(04:03):
he worked every day, you know, his ship. They're making
him out like some damn big gangsters, a bunch of shit, okay, okay,
and how I want to talk with me and other thing.
You know, he wasn't a thing, okay, But Chris never
hurt nobody. I'll tell you whatever I can do to
help get out. And we're not concerned about anything other
than the murders. So you know, we've talked with different people.
(04:24):
Different people have different involvement. You know. You know you've
you've read the paper, you know you've seen the news.
I'm not worried about all that. I'll tell you whatever
you need to know, Okay. I'm just saying, you know,
there was gross dare I'm I'll tell you something right
off the bat. Okay, you didn't know Chris all right,
most of the the ship they're talking about it was a
bunch of bullshit life, Okay, I mean Chris, he'd give
(04:48):
you the shirt off his back. Well, we've heard that.
You know, he's he you know, he was absolutely you know,
wasn't nobody else like him? Oh, Chris, Like I said,
he's my best friend. Also said he and Chris Rodin
had spoken the night he was killed. Last time I
talked came and he seemed all right, was the night
before all happened, and I said, hey man, I'll talk
(05:11):
you more. And then next morning, you know, all hell
broke loose DCI agents s Wagner, who he thought committed
the murderers. Billy Wagner floated the possibility that Chris Rudin
Senior might have vowed money to drug dealers. I ain't
a bunch of hell Billy's do something like that. And well,
you know, sorry, I never convinced me. You know, has
(05:34):
like some Seal Team six. Okay, but you're bottom feeding
suns and pitches right, Well, yeah, you know your bottom feeders.
I mean every dawn one of them. I mean they're
on that freaking ship and I mean at kilber Dan
Graham off for five hours and you know, I told
Kre you know, got the fucking you know, shoot fuck
around fact ship and you know, because it just and
(05:57):
it ain't so much, you know, who cares? You know
what happens to the dumbass is doing it. But you
know it's a ship that they did. Investigators again pressed
Billy Wagner about his relationship with victim Chris Roden Sr.
Specifically if they had gotten into a fight a few
weeks prior to the murders. We'd heard someone had called
(06:20):
and said and then listen, I'm not trying to I
don't understand. I don't care. What you heard on ODAVE
is that you and Chris actually got into a fight
about a week or two prior to the murders. No,
and said that you'd pulled a gun on him. No, okay,
absolutely not. Didn't happen, good nappy, Well, no, it's just
saying that you got into an argument with that and
(06:41):
then you sort then you pulled a gun on him
now and you said you've bet now. I don't care
how about Craig. Throughout the nearly two hour conversation, Wagner
tried repeatedly to shift the investigator's attention away from himself
and his family. You're looking in the wrong damn direction
to be going, he ever, why. At one point, Billy
(07:03):
Wagner even mentioned he'd heard Hannah Rodin was seeing a
sheriff and said someone had seen a sheriff's car parked
on Union Hill Road. Somebody said that she was seeing
a deputy sheriff up here in Waverley. I don't know
who he is, and you everything. I heard that there
was a sheriff sitting at the end of Union Hill
all night, So I don't know if that's I don't know,
(07:25):
but that's just what I heard. Later, when agents mentioned
the marijuana growing on Chris Rodin's property, Billy Wagner denied
any involvement in the drug business. Now, other people have
told us that they thought that you and Chris were
business partners. No, now, if Chris, you know, I don't know,
I'm bullshit, Chris. I don't care what Chris asked me
(07:47):
to do. You know, if he asked me to do something,
I'd do it for him, because he do anything for me.
But you know, you just you just don't. There's no
way you can understand that. I understand me, Christens. You know,
like I said, with daylight dark all right, but we
you know pretty much. You know, if he wanted to
(08:08):
go do something, we go. If I want to go
do something, he go with may you know, and didn't
minterr so. But so you never hold any weed for no. No,
I hold a lot of cars for him. I hold
a lot of cars. Would you hold him? La Roug
go down dreer down their code parks and get them
for him and bring him up. Investigator's return to rumors
of illegal drugs and a possible drug deal that Chris
(08:30):
Roden was potentially involved with, and who Billy Wagner alleged
might have had a reason to kill Chris Roden. It's
important to note that George Wagner's allegations against Skid Montgomery
are not substantiated. Here's Special Prosecutor Angiekneppa picking up her
questioning of Agrian Jenkins. There's talk in during that conversation
(08:54):
between you and mister Wagner, and he keeps referring to
a person named Yes, that's correct, and can you tell
us who Latham is? Sure? So during that during that interview,
mister Wagner, as you've heard it, would keep referring to
an individual named Lath Latham and basically who he was
(09:15):
referring to as an individual named Skid Montgomery. Skid Montgomery
lives in around the Latham area, owns a lot of
property in the in the Pike County area, and we'd
learned through the investigation that there was always rumor that
Skid Montgomery was a big, large scale marijuana dealer and
that he would put hits out on people and especially
(09:40):
Agen Jenkins. Obviously, Billy talk to you about an alleged
business deal where Chris was expected to get a large
a large chunk of marijuana and indicated that it would
represent a lot of money and they would put people
out of business. Correct, that's correct, Okay, and specifically indicated
(10:03):
that he felt that that would be upsetting to Latham
slash Skid mcgomery. That's correct. Yes, Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
It's very compelling to hear the voice of accused father
Billy Wagner. Hearing this interview that has been spoken about
so often was fascinating. Some people say that he was
(10:26):
rambling in this interview, and trying to lead investigators in
a different direction and throw some tidbits at them to
get them off his track. But frankly, in listening to it,
I thought he felt pretty calm and cooperative. He was
just being stopped outside of a grocery store and cut
to he's in a two hour interview. Well, Steph, Based
(10:49):
on what we've heard about the Wagner's movements after the murders,
I think it stands to reason that they probably were
anticipating talking to law enforcement at some point and probably
had a bit of a script or a plan for
when that did happen. I mean, because Billy very quickly
was throwing out unsubstantiated rumors about nineteen year old victim
Hannah may Or pointing away from himself towards the grow operation,
(11:12):
and even bringing up Skid Montgomery like he already had
a litany of things that he was going to kind
of try to throw at the police to get the
scent off of him and his family. Interesting that you
should say that, because yes, you're right. On the one hand,
he's saying that Chris Senior was his very best friend
and he would do anything for him, and that Chris
(11:34):
would do anything for him, And to your point, on
the other hand, he's essentially throwing him under the bus
by pointing to the grow operation and denying that there
was ever a big fight between them regarding custody and
kind of bringing him again back to Skid Montgomery. Even
just hearing the name Latham aka Skid Montgomery, and it
(11:57):
legitimately makes the hairs in the back of my next
stand because we've been given this name so many times,
both from listeners and people in and around the area.
And again, Skid Montgomery is a very prominent landowner in
Pike County and now here's Billy basically accusing him. Is
this just Billy getting him off his tracks? Or is
(12:20):
it possible that there is some truth to that. I
have to assume that we're going to hear from Skid
Montgomery at some point, and that he'll be a witness.
I also thought it was interesting that Billy says there
was a sheriff at the bottom of the road that
whole night that he had heard rumors of. That is
he referring to Sheriff Reader, And if so, I also
(12:41):
have to assume that Sheriff Reader at some point will
testify at this trial. Because his name comes up all
the time, and as we know, he's currently serving time
for unrelated charges for taking drug money illegally and using
it for gambling, again completely unrelated. Nobody has associated him
(13:03):
with these murders, but again these names keep coming up. Well, Steph,
this is certainly an interesting preview of the trial to come.
As we know Billy Wagner has pled not guilty and
as a waiting trial, and so this is maybe just
a little bit of a sneak peek at his upcoming
legal proceedings. Also, even just him saying that me and
(13:23):
Chris were best friends and that we were like daylight
and dark. I thought that was such a curious statement,
which one does he see himself as. Despite efforts to
shift the focus away from himself and his family, investigators
walked away from their conversation with Billy Wagner with more
(13:45):
questions than answers. Here's legal analyst Mike allon he didn't
help himself listening to it. I really don't know what
he was trying to do. I mean, obviously he was
trying to shift the focus away from him and his family.
I don't I don't think he was very successful with it.
That happens all the time. These people, some of them,
(14:07):
they deceived themselves into thinking that, you know, they're the
smartest criminal in the world, and you know they'll say,
well if I if I say this to the police,
or if I say something else to the police, there,
that'll throw them off the trail, doesn't happen. We're going
to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(14:36):
The investigative trail was beginning to point directly to the
Wagner family, though not necessarily to defendant George Wagner. Here's
longtime investigative reporter James Pilcher in Cincinnati now with Local twelve.
When are they going to point to George being part
of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical evidence that
they presented early on had any of the Wagners too,
(15:00):
any of these crime sites. Outside the courtroom, questions were
being asked about the prosecution's ability to link George Wagner
to the murders. That to me is the major issue here, right.
I've been going for days in this trial, lots of evidence,
lots of witnesses, but honestly, we have yet to hear
any connection of George the fourth to these crimes. Following
(15:21):
Special Agent John jenkins testimony, the defense requested for the
third time in the trial there should be a mistrial.
The defense argued the tapes of Special Agent Jenkins's interview
with Billy Wagner should never have been played before the jury.
The defense argued the tapes had nothing to do with
George Wagner and that the interview did not establish any
(15:42):
proof of a conspiracy to commit aggravated murder. Special Prosecutor
Angie Kuneppas said that wasn't why the state played the
interview with Billy Wagner at his son George's trial. Instead,
she wanted the jury to see how BCI investigators ended
up focusing on the Wagner family. Court rude emotions previously
(16:02):
made on the record for miss trial and to exclude
the tape or to strike the tape is defense council
and the state ready to bring the jury up. Judge
During ruled against the motion for a mistrial and the
prosecution called for the second time. BCI analyst Julia Eveslidge,
the agent, has long brown hair and is wearing a
(16:23):
maroon red jacket. Evslage is sworn in and questioned by
Special prosecutor Angie Caneppa, good afternoon. How are you good afternoon?
If you want to go ahead and state your name
again just for the record, Julia Avslidge. Okay, and you
previously testified in this case. Correct, that's correct, okay. And
we've already discussed with you your current role at the
(16:47):
Bureau Criment Investigations and your work in this case, specifically
in analyzing records and other things that came that were
obtained for cervant to both subpoenas an searchwards correct, yes, okay.
And can you tell us when you go through records
(17:07):
and such, is that information that you then share with
the investigative team, Yes, okay. And in your experience, does
that then inform their investigation in people that they are
wulling in or ruling out? Yes, okay. And can you
tell us, miss Evslage in this case, did you guys
obtain Facebook records of the victims? Yes, one of our
(17:32):
cybercrimes agents obtained a search warrant for all of the
Facebook accounts of the victims and we review those once
the responses came in from Facebook. On the screen above
epislaghe prosecutors pull up a spreadsheet of messages taken from
Hannah Rodin's Facebook account. Each entry is labeled with the
(17:53):
time and date of the exchange. During that review of
those Facebook records, did you find information in the Facebook
account belonging to Hannah May Rowden? Yes, and can you
tell us why were they noteworthy to you? When we
(18:13):
first started looking at Hannah's Facebook, we found some statements
in there, in some of her messages that seemed to
be in direct conflict with things that we had heard
and interviews, particularly with Jake Wagner's interview, and we noted
just different different statements about abuse in the relationship, issues
with the Wagner's being controlling, things like that, and then
(18:35):
just her kind of sense of discomfort with the situation
with the custody of Okay and fears that they were
trying to take from her. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff.
Last episode, we heard, among others, Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's
ex wife's testimony and her correspondence between haw To May
(18:57):
Rodin and herself before she was murdered. Well, what's interesting
about this is the messages between Hannah May and Tabitha,
Georgia's ex wife talk about the fears of losing custody
in the Wagner family, making the young woman sign documents
that they don't want to be signed, kind of basically
being coerced into signing. Attempted guardianship fraud was uncovered in
(19:19):
the Pine County murder trial. Take a closer look at
your screen here. I want to show you something that's
on that document. At the bottom of it, you can
see a URL to a website and there's a date
on the paper. It shows someone ripped this document off
a Texas government website in April of twenty sixteen, the
same month someone murdered Hannah May and seven of her
(19:39):
family members. Investigators say they've found that in the Wagner's belongings.
While the Wagners told investigators there are no issues over
custody of Jake and Hannah's daughter, analyst Julia Evslage pointed
to additional Facebook messages that showed Hannah was scared of
the Wagner's attempts to win custody of her daughter. One
(20:00):
Facebook message stood out. It's the often spoken about conversation
from December of twenty fifteen that was between Hannah Mae
Rodin and George Wagner, the fourth's ex mother in law.
It's where Hannah Ma swears she will never sign papers
to give up custody of her daughter. As for those
Facebook messages to Hannah Wagner, one of those exchanges between
(20:21):
Tabitha and Hannah Rodin actually took place on the very
day that Hannah Roden was killed. Billy Wagner's interview and
the Facebook messages showing the brewing custody battle between Hannah
and Jake convinced investigators in late twenty sixteen they needed
to shift their focus to the Wagner family. You need
to investigate that. That's important. That's a lead, that's something
(20:42):
that needs to be ran down. Special Agent Ryan Schiderer
of the BCI led the two year investigation into the
brutal killings. Schiderer testified that he visited the Wagner's home
on Peterson Road in May of twenty seventeen, just before
the Wagners are set to move to Alaska. Here's Angiekineppa
speaking with Agent Schiderer, who is on the stand. When
(21:05):
you arrived, you said Jake and Angela and George were
outside packing along As in the trailer, did all three
of those individuals remain outside. No, they did not. George
excused himself and went inside, and Jake and Angela remained outside. Yes, okay.
And during that time, did you observe anything in the
(21:28):
driveway that was of interest to you? Yes? Why speaking
with Angela and Jake, they were willing to speak with us,
They didn't ask us to leave. I just casually observed
there was numerous fired cartridge casenes lying about the driveway.
All over the place. There was hundreds of thousands of
(21:49):
cartridges laying around caseinges. And can you tell us, special
Agent Chider, did you were you able to pick those
items up and examine them close? No? Okay? And were
you able to tell from your vantage point not bending
over and picking them up or examining them closely? Did
(22:09):
any of them appear to be of interest? Yes? So
the crime scenes, we were aware that there was a
forty caliber used. A forty cartridge casing was found at
one of the crime scenes. You guys heard about that.
We also knew that there was potentially a thirty caliber
rifle that was used and twenty two long rifle. What
I observed that day, I saw cartridge casings that appeared
(22:32):
to be from a rifle. They weren't like at twenty
two caliber rifle, so they weren't twenty two rim fires,
but they definitely weren't like two two threes or five
five six's. I just couldn't tell what caliber they were.
And then I also saw cartridge cases that or casings
that were consistent with pistol calibers. Specifically to me, it
(22:52):
looked like they were nine milimeters or forty caliber. I
couldn't tell from my vantage point. Obviously, I'm standing up
and I did not examine them. And can you tell us?
Was there also a conversation with Jake regarding various punishments
for this kind of a crime. Yes. One of the
things that I like to do when I'm talking to
somebody that I suspect is involved in a crime i'm investigating,
(23:16):
as oftentimes, I will ask that person, what do you
think the appropriate punishment is for somebody that's accused of
this crime? To elicit their response, so I did ask
him that, okay, and what was his response? It depended
on whether or not they were a trigger person. Following
the visit, investigators got a warrant to search the Wagner
(23:37):
property and their cell phones. Among the many communications they
found were text messages between George Wagner and his father Billy.
One message was sent while BCI investigators were at the
Wagner's home. Can you tell us if you saw anything
of interest on Billy's phone? There was interesting text messages
(23:58):
from George. Message or four is an nbox, which means
it's a message to Billy and it is from George,
his son, and it says, don't calm down till I
text you got company. Here's Stephanie. None of this ties
(24:18):
George Wagner to the crimes. I also thought it was
interesting that when police arrived to their home and George
went inside, and they later took Billy's phone and he
had texted to George to stay inside. Was he protecting
him from police? Was Jake protecting his brother when he
(24:39):
said what should happen to the people who committed this crime?
And he said depends on who the trigger puller was?
But again a strange answer retrospectively, since he's now taken
a play agreement saying that he was in fact a
trigger puller, Is that a way of protecting George? Because
so far compelling as all of this is none of
(25:02):
it really does tie George to the crime, but Jake
Wagner's phone included far more incriminating evidence. Once again, the
messages were displayed on a large TV screen above the
witness box. Did you also look at Jake's phone and
did you find anything of interest on that phone? Yes?
(25:25):
And can you tell us what you found. One of
the most interesting things that we found on Jake's phone
at that time was under the note section, and it
was a list of guns owned by the Wagners were
purported to be. So basically, there's a list with each
Wagner's name and then a list of guns underneath each
of those names. Jurors and Wagner's murder trial learned his
(25:48):
brother Jake kept a list of guns that investigators think
both men, along with their parents Billy and Angela owned
On that list an SKX seven six two thirty nine
and a cult nineteen eleven twenty two pistols. The search
of the Wagner property also produced valuable evidence linking the
Wagner's weapons to the murders. This included hundreds of shellcasings
(26:10):
from the Wagner family farm. BCI firearms expert Matthew White
delivered what could turn out to be damning testimony in
the State of Ohio's case against George Wagner. Today, let's
stop here for another break. During Special Prosecutor Andy Wilson's
(26:37):
questioning of BCI agent Matthew White, prosecutors showed hundreds of
photos of shellcasings on the overhead screen. Jurors were seen
taking notes and at times sketching doodle drawings during the
long and often technical testimony. Were you able, based on
your knowledge or training, your experience, and the work that
(26:57):
you had done in this case examining book the shellcasings
and the projectiles, were you able to wring your an
opinion as to whether or not any guns listed on
that list could have been responsible for that the evidence
recovered from the scenes. I did, okay, and could you
tell the jury what that opinion was. I felt the
(27:19):
most likely candidates for firearms that could have been used
for the SKS seven sixty two by thirty nine and
the COLT nineteen eleven twenty two pistol. Well, based on
your review of this, you determined that the SKS seven
sixty two by thirty nine and the COLT nineteen eleven
(27:42):
twenty two could be contributors to the guns that were used,
could be the guns that were used in this case? Yes,
that are that is correct. Matthew White was also asked
if any of the shell casings found on the Wagner's
property matched any of the cartridge casings elected at the
crime scenes. And when you did those comparisons, were you
(28:06):
able to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to reach
a conclusion as to whether or not those exhibits that
were recovered from Peterson Road were fired from the same
firearm that fired the shell casings recovered from scene two
and see three. I was, and can you tell the
jury what that opinion was. I saw my microsoftic comparison
(28:27):
of the two fired twenty two long rifle cartridge cases
compared to the other fired twenty two long rifle cartridge cases.
I was able to conclude that all of the fired
twenty two long rifle cartridge cases had been fired in
the same firearm. The defense, however, tried to blunt the
testimony linking the Wagner's family's weapons to the murder scenes.
(28:50):
The cross examination lasted less than ten seconds after direction,
good after night, sir, to see it again, you too, sir.
You don't know fire weapon nice Sure I cannot say that.
Thank you, Jack. More on that next time. For more
information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on
(29:13):
Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is produced
by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel
Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by
Jeff toa music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Masker is
a production of iHeart Radio and KAT Studios. For more
(29:36):
podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome
mar Fight County, Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord. I just thank
you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay,
(29:58):
hook on? Well Dad all over the house? Who could
have killed eight family members in one mile? I lost
my best friends and I will never be the same
because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses.
The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood.
(30:21):
The word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was
the master mind, I'm telling you is a crimer. I'm
not pitty in prison. One thing our lard. The smaller
the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch
our upcoming documentary The Pike County Murders, a family massacre,
(30:43):
premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on
Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November
twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts
are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.
And I know a a bunch of you know, Billy sees
something like that, never compasioning satisfaction in sealteen to six,
When are they going to point to George being part
of this conspiracy? Hannah replies, I won't sign papers. Ever,
it won't happen. They will have to kill me first.
(00:27):
This is the piked and massacre Return to Pike County
season four, episode twelve, Closing in on the Wagners. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kati's Studios with Stephanie
Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's the middle of George Wagner
the Fourth trial. It's important to note that George Wagner
(00:47):
the Fourth, along with his father Billy Wagner, whose trial
is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and have pleaded not guilty
to all charges. So far, there's been hours of testimony
by investigators relatives that have painted a very real portrait
of what the crime scenes look like. But while prosecutors
have laid out the grisly details of the murderers, they
(01:09):
have yet to connect George Wagner the Fourth to the killings.
Stake cidifications to state ready to call another witnesses special
Prosecutor an Jacineppa call special Agent John Jenkins of the
Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigations more commonly known as the BCI.
Jenkins sports a trimmed goatee and looks every bit the
(01:31):
veteran investigator he is. In twenty sixteen, just four months
after the brutal murders, Jenkins interviewed the Wagner family's father, Billy.
You can find Billy Wagner's raw audio of his conversation
with special agents on our Apple Plus True Crime subscription page.
A link to that page is included in this episode's description.
(01:56):
Today's attention turned to a police interview with the defendant's father, Billy.
He was best friends with one of the victims, Chris Rodin.
I mean his interview, he provides some insights that could
not only help the prosecution, but could also be useful
for the defense. BCI agents had spent months trying to
speak to Billy Wagner. Jenkins testified that Wagner seemed to
(02:17):
be avoiding them. We want to talk to him because
of the fact of his relationship with and Hannah, but
also weird started to at this time get tips and
leads that there might have been some issues with some
custody references, and that task became difficult due to the
fact that when we stopped by the house, Billy wasn't
(02:40):
always there. In September of twenty sixteen, BCI agents finally
tracked down Billy Wagner outside a grocery store and was
this interview with Billy Wagner recorded. Yes, it was audio recorded.
It's this time you run. I would like to play
that recording for the jury. I just want to talk
(03:01):
with you about the road and murders, okay, And so
you know, we've been out talking with people, you know,
all kinds of you know, tips get called in our
office and all that, and so your name has come
up and you know, and tips and things like that.
So we just want to tie I find whatever you
want to. Just be honest with us. I'll tell you
(03:22):
whatever I can do to help get out. As the
audio recordings began, Jenkins, wearing a blue blazer and white shirt,
lowered his head and sat listening to the conversation. Billy
Wagner was first asked about his relationship with Chris Rodin. Sr.
Wagner insisted he and victim Chris Rodin were very close.
(03:42):
You know, Chris was my best friend, all right, manaham,
you know we run around all the time. But I
want to talk about Chris. Chris, don't tell her. He
didn't tell nobody. Nothing can kenviy the business to yourself.
And I want to tell you straight up, I don't
care what he done. He was my friend. He done
everything for me, you know. And Chris rodup I mean
scribes for everything. He had worked his ass off and
(04:03):
he worked every day, you know, his ship. They're making
him out like some damn big gangsters, a bunch of shit, okay, okay,
and how I want to talk with me and other thing.
You know, he wasn't a thing, okay, But Chris never
hurt nobody. I'll tell you whatever I can do to
help get out. And we're not concerned about anything other
than the murders. So you know, we've talked with different people.
(04:24):
Different people have different involvement. You know. You know you've
you've read the paper, you know you've seen the news.
I'm not worried about all that. I'll tell you whatever
you need to know, Okay. I'm just saying, you know,
there was gross dare I'm I'll tell you something right
off the bat. Okay, you didn't know Chris all right,
most of the the ship they're talking about it was a
bunch of bullshit life, Okay, I mean Chris, he'd give
(04:48):
you the shirt off his back. Well, we've heard that.
You know, he's he you know, he was absolutely you know,
wasn't nobody else like him? Oh, Chris, Like I said,
he's my best friend. Also said he and Chris Rodin
had spoken the night he was killed. Last time I
talked came and he seemed all right, was the night
before all happened, and I said, hey man, I'll talk
(05:11):
you more. And then next morning, you know, all hell
broke loose DCI agents s Wagner, who he thought committed
the murderers. Billy Wagner floated the possibility that Chris Rudin
Senior might have vowed money to drug dealers. I ain't
a bunch of hell Billy's do something like that. And well,
you know, sorry, I never convinced me. You know, has
(05:34):
like some Seal Team six. Okay, but you're bottom feeding
suns and pitches right, Well, yeah, you know your bottom feeders.
I mean every dawn one of them. I mean they're
on that freaking ship and I mean at kilber Dan
Graham off for five hours and you know, I told
Kre you know, got the fucking you know, shoot fuck
around fact ship and you know, because it just and
(05:57):
it ain't so much, you know, who cares? You know
what happens to the dumbass is doing it. But you
know it's a ship that they did. Investigators again pressed
Billy Wagner about his relationship with victim Chris Roden Sr.
Specifically if they had gotten into a fight a few
weeks prior to the murders. We'd heard someone had called
(06:20):
and said and then listen, I'm not trying to I
don't understand. I don't care. What you heard on ODAVE
is that you and Chris actually got into a fight
about a week or two prior to the murders. No,
and said that you'd pulled a gun on him. No, okay,
absolutely not. Didn't happen, good nappy, Well, no, it's just
saying that you got into an argument with that and
(06:41):
then you sort then you pulled a gun on him
now and you said you've bet now. I don't care
how about Craig. Throughout the nearly two hour conversation, Wagner
tried repeatedly to shift the investigator's attention away from himself
and his family. You're looking in the wrong damn direction
to be going, he ever, why. At one point, Billy
(07:03):
Wagner even mentioned he'd heard Hannah Rodin was seeing a
sheriff and said someone had seen a sheriff's car parked
on Union Hill Road. Somebody said that she was seeing
a deputy sheriff up here in Waverley. I don't know
who he is, and you everything. I heard that there
was a sheriff sitting at the end of Union Hill
all night, So I don't know if that's I don't know,
(07:25):
but that's just what I heard. Later, when agents mentioned
the marijuana growing on Chris Rodin's property, Billy Wagner denied
any involvement in the drug business. Now, other people have
told us that they thought that you and Chris were
business partners. No, now, if Chris, you know, I don't know,
I'm bullshit, Chris. I don't care what Chris asked me
(07:47):
to do. You know, if he asked me to do something,
I'd do it for him, because he do anything for me.
But you know, you just you just don't. There's no
way you can understand that. I understand me, Christens. You know,
like I said, with daylight dark all right, but we
you know pretty much. You know, if he wanted to
(08:08):
go do something, we go. If I want to go
do something, he go with may you know, and didn't
minterr so. But so you never hold any weed for no. No,
I hold a lot of cars for him. I hold
a lot of cars. Would you hold him? La Roug
go down dreer down their code parks and get them
for him and bring him up. Investigator's return to rumors
of illegal drugs and a possible drug deal that Chris
(08:30):
Roden was potentially involved with, and who Billy Wagner alleged
might have had a reason to kill Chris Roden. It's
important to note that George Wagner's allegations against Skid Montgomery
are not substantiated. Here's Special Prosecutor Angiekneppa picking up her
questioning of Agrian Jenkins. There's talk in during that conversation
(08:54):
between you and mister Wagner, and he keeps referring to
a person named Yes, that's correct, and can you tell
us who Latham is? Sure? So during that during that interview,
mister Wagner, as you've heard it, would keep referring to
an individual named Lath Latham and basically who he was
(09:15):
referring to as an individual named Skid Montgomery. Skid Montgomery
lives in around the Latham area, owns a lot of
property in the in the Pike County area, and we'd
learned through the investigation that there was always rumor that
Skid Montgomery was a big, large scale marijuana dealer and
that he would put hits out on people and especially
(09:40):
Agen Jenkins. Obviously, Billy talk to you about an alleged
business deal where Chris was expected to get a large
a large chunk of marijuana and indicated that it would
represent a lot of money and they would put people
out of business. Correct, that's correct, Okay, and specifically indicated
(10:03):
that he felt that that would be upsetting to Latham
slash Skid mcgomery. That's correct. Yes, Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
It's very compelling to hear the voice of accused father
Billy Wagner. Hearing this interview that has been spoken about
so often was fascinating. Some people say that he was
(10:26):
rambling in this interview, and trying to lead investigators in
a different direction and throw some tidbits at them to
get them off his track. But frankly, in listening to it,
I thought he felt pretty calm and cooperative. He was
just being stopped outside of a grocery store and cut
to he's in a two hour interview. Well, Steph, Based
(10:49):
on what we've heard about the Wagner's movements after the murders,
I think it stands to reason that they probably were
anticipating talking to law enforcement at some point and probably
had a bit of a script or a plan for
when that did happen. I mean, because Billy very quickly
was throwing out unsubstantiated rumors about nineteen year old victim
Hannah may Or pointing away from himself towards the grow operation,
(11:12):
and even bringing up Skid Montgomery like he already had
a litany of things that he was going to kind
of try to throw at the police to get the
scent off of him and his family. Interesting that you
should say that, because yes, you're right. On the one hand,
he's saying that Chris Senior was his very best friend
and he would do anything for him, and that Chris
(11:34):
would do anything for him, And to your point, on
the other hand, he's essentially throwing him under the bus
by pointing to the grow operation and denying that there
was ever a big fight between them regarding custody and
kind of bringing him again back to Skid Montgomery. Even
just hearing the name Latham aka Skid Montgomery, and it
(11:57):
legitimately makes the hairs in the back of my next
stand because we've been given this name so many times,
both from listeners and people in and around the area.
And again, Skid Montgomery is a very prominent landowner in
Pike County and now here's Billy basically accusing him. Is
this just Billy getting him off his tracks? Or is
(12:20):
it possible that there is some truth to that. I
have to assume that we're going to hear from Skid
Montgomery at some point, and that he'll be a witness.
I also thought it was interesting that Billy says there
was a sheriff at the bottom of the road that
whole night that he had heard rumors of. That is
he referring to Sheriff Reader, And if so, I also
(12:41):
have to assume that Sheriff Reader at some point will
testify at this trial. Because his name comes up all
the time, and as we know, he's currently serving time
for unrelated charges for taking drug money illegally and using
it for gambling, again completely unrelated. Nobody has associated him
(13:03):
with these murders, but again these names keep coming up. Well, Steph,
this is certainly an interesting preview of the trial to come.
As we know Billy Wagner has pled not guilty and
as a waiting trial, and so this is maybe just
a little bit of a sneak peek at his upcoming
legal proceedings. Also, even just him saying that me and
(13:23):
Chris were best friends and that we were like daylight
and dark. I thought that was such a curious statement,
which one does he see himself as. Despite efforts to
shift the focus away from himself and his family, investigators
walked away from their conversation with Billy Wagner with more
(13:45):
questions than answers. Here's legal analyst Mike allon he didn't
help himself listening to it. I really don't know what
he was trying to do. I mean, obviously he was
trying to shift the focus away from him and his family.
I don't I don't think he was very successful with it.
That happens all the time. These people, some of them,
(14:07):
they deceived themselves into thinking that, you know, they're the
smartest criminal in the world, and you know they'll say,
well if I if I say this to the police,
or if I say something else to the police, there,
that'll throw them off the trail, doesn't happen. We're going
to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(14:36):
The investigative trail was beginning to point directly to the
Wagner family, though not necessarily to defendant George Wagner. Here's
longtime investigative reporter James Pilcher in Cincinnati now with Local twelve.
When are they going to point to George being part
of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical evidence that
they presented early on had any of the Wagners too,
(15:00):
any of these crime sites. Outside the courtroom, questions were
being asked about the prosecution's ability to link George Wagner
to the murders. That to me is the major issue here, right.
I've been going for days in this trial, lots of evidence,
lots of witnesses, but honestly, we have yet to hear
any connection of George the fourth to these crimes. Following
(15:21):
Special Agent John jenkins testimony, the defense requested for the
third time in the trial there should be a mistrial.
The defense argued the tapes of Special Agent Jenkins's interview
with Billy Wagner should never have been played before the jury.
The defense argued the tapes had nothing to do with
George Wagner and that the interview did not establish any
(15:42):
proof of a conspiracy to commit aggravated murder. Special Prosecutor
Angie Kuneppas said that wasn't why the state played the
interview with Billy Wagner at his son George's trial. Instead,
she wanted the jury to see how BCI investigators ended
up focusing on the Wagner family. Court rude emotions previously
(16:02):
made on the record for miss trial and to exclude
the tape or to strike the tape is defense council
and the state ready to bring the jury up. Judge
During ruled against the motion for a mistrial and the
prosecution called for the second time. BCI analyst Julia Eveslidge,
the agent, has long brown hair and is wearing a
(16:23):
maroon red jacket. Evslage is sworn in and questioned by
Special prosecutor Angie Caneppa, good afternoon. How are you good afternoon?
If you want to go ahead and state your name
again just for the record, Julia Avslidge. Okay, and you
previously testified in this case. Correct, that's correct, okay. And
we've already discussed with you your current role at the
(16:47):
Bureau Criment Investigations and your work in this case, specifically
in analyzing records and other things that came that were
obtained for cervant to both subpoenas an searchwards correct, yes, okay.
And can you tell us when you go through records
(17:07):
and such, is that information that you then share with
the investigative team, Yes, okay. And in your experience, does
that then inform their investigation in people that they are
wulling in or ruling out? Yes, okay. And can you
tell us, miss Evslage in this case, did you guys
obtain Facebook records of the victims? Yes, one of our
(17:32):
cybercrimes agents obtained a search warrant for all of the
Facebook accounts of the victims and we review those once
the responses came in from Facebook. On the screen above
epislaghe prosecutors pull up a spreadsheet of messages taken from
Hannah Rodin's Facebook account. Each entry is labeled with the
(17:53):
time and date of the exchange. During that review of
those Facebook records, did you find information in the Facebook
account belonging to Hannah May Rowden? Yes, and can you
tell us why were they noteworthy to you? When we
(18:13):
first started looking at Hannah's Facebook, we found some statements
in there, in some of her messages that seemed to
be in direct conflict with things that we had heard
and interviews, particularly with Jake Wagner's interview, and we noted
just different different statements about abuse in the relationship, issues
with the Wagner's being controlling, things like that, and then
(18:35):
just her kind of sense of discomfort with the situation
with the custody of Okay and fears that they were
trying to take from her. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff.
Last episode, we heard, among others, Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's
ex wife's testimony and her correspondence between haw To May
(18:57):
Rodin and herself before she was murdered. Well, what's interesting
about this is the messages between Hannah May and Tabitha,
Georgia's ex wife talk about the fears of losing custody
in the Wagner family, making the young woman sign documents
that they don't want to be signed, kind of basically
being coerced into signing. Attempted guardianship fraud was uncovered in
(19:19):
the Pine County murder trial. Take a closer look at
your screen here. I want to show you something that's
on that document. At the bottom of it, you can
see a URL to a website and there's a date
on the paper. It shows someone ripped this document off
a Texas government website in April of twenty sixteen, the
same month someone murdered Hannah May and seven of her
(19:39):
family members. Investigators say they've found that in the Wagner's belongings.
While the Wagners told investigators there are no issues over
custody of Jake and Hannah's daughter, analyst Julia Evslage pointed
to additional Facebook messages that showed Hannah was scared of
the Wagner's attempts to win custody of her daughter. One
(20:00):
Facebook message stood out. It's the often spoken about conversation
from December of twenty fifteen that was between Hannah Mae
Rodin and George Wagner, the fourth's ex mother in law.
It's where Hannah Ma swears she will never sign papers
to give up custody of her daughter. As for those
Facebook messages to Hannah Wagner, one of those exchanges between
(20:21):
Tabitha and Hannah Rodin actually took place on the very
day that Hannah Roden was killed. Billy Wagner's interview and
the Facebook messages showing the brewing custody battle between Hannah
and Jake convinced investigators in late twenty sixteen they needed
to shift their focus to the Wagner family. You need
to investigate that. That's important. That's a lead, that's something
(20:42):
that needs to be ran down. Special Agent Ryan Schiderer
of the BCI led the two year investigation into the
brutal killings. Schiderer testified that he visited the Wagner's home
on Peterson Road in May of twenty seventeen, just before
the Wagners are set to move to Alaska. Here's Angiekineppa
speaking with Agent Schiderer, who is on the stand. When
(21:05):
you arrived, you said Jake and Angela and George were
outside packing along As in the trailer, did all three
of those individuals remain outside. No, they did not. George
excused himself and went inside, and Jake and Angela remained outside. Yes, okay.
And during that time, did you observe anything in the
(21:28):
driveway that was of interest to you? Yes? Why speaking
with Angela and Jake, they were willing to speak with us,
They didn't ask us to leave. I just casually observed
there was numerous fired cartridge casenes lying about the driveway.
All over the place. There was hundreds of thousands of
(21:49):
cartridges laying around caseinges. And can you tell us, special
Agent Chider, did you were you able to pick those
items up and examine them close? No? Okay? And were
you able to tell from your vantage point not bending
over and picking them up or examining them closely? Did
(22:09):
any of them appear to be of interest? Yes? So
the crime scenes, we were aware that there was a
forty caliber used. A forty cartridge casing was found at
one of the crime scenes. You guys heard about that.
We also knew that there was potentially a thirty caliber
rifle that was used and twenty two long rifle. What
I observed that day, I saw cartridge casings that appeared
(22:32):
to be from a rifle. They weren't like at twenty
two caliber rifle, so they weren't twenty two rim fires,
but they definitely weren't like two two threes or five
five six's. I just couldn't tell what caliber they were.
And then I also saw cartridge cases that or casings
that were consistent with pistol calibers. Specifically to me, it
(22:52):
looked like they were nine milimeters or forty caliber. I
couldn't tell from my vantage point. Obviously, I'm standing up
and I did not examine them. And can you tell us?
Was there also a conversation with Jake regarding various punishments
for this kind of a crime. Yes. One of the
things that I like to do when I'm talking to
somebody that I suspect is involved in a crime i'm investigating,
(23:16):
as oftentimes, I will ask that person, what do you
think the appropriate punishment is for somebody that's accused of
this crime? To elicit their response, so I did ask
him that, okay, and what was his response? It depended
on whether or not they were a trigger person. Following
the visit, investigators got a warrant to search the Wagner
(23:37):
property and their cell phones. Among the many communications they
found were text messages between George Wagner and his father Billy.
One message was sent while BCI investigators were at the
Wagner's home. Can you tell us if you saw anything
of interest on Billy's phone? There was interesting text messages
(23:58):
from George. Message or four is an nbox, which means
it's a message to Billy and it is from George,
his son, and it says, don't calm down till I
text you got company. Here's Stephanie. None of this ties
(24:18):
George Wagner to the crimes. I also thought it was
interesting that when police arrived to their home and George
went inside, and they later took Billy's phone and he
had texted to George to stay inside. Was he protecting
him from police? Was Jake protecting his brother when he
(24:39):
said what should happen to the people who committed this crime?
And he said depends on who the trigger puller was?
But again a strange answer retrospectively, since he's now taken
a play agreement saying that he was in fact a
trigger puller, Is that a way of protecting George? Because
so far compelling as all of this is none of
(25:02):
it really does tie George to the crime, but Jake
Wagner's phone included far more incriminating evidence. Once again, the
messages were displayed on a large TV screen above the
witness box. Did you also look at Jake's phone and
did you find anything of interest on that phone? Yes?
(25:25):
And can you tell us what you found. One of
the most interesting things that we found on Jake's phone
at that time was under the note section, and it
was a list of guns owned by the Wagners were
purported to be. So basically, there's a list with each
Wagner's name and then a list of guns underneath each
of those names. Jurors and Wagner's murder trial learned his
(25:48):
brother Jake kept a list of guns that investigators think
both men, along with their parents Billy and Angela owned
On that list an SKX seven six two thirty nine
and a cult nineteen eleven twenty two pistols. The search
of the Wagner property also produced valuable evidence linking the
Wagner's weapons to the murders. This included hundreds of shellcasings
(26:10):
from the Wagner family farm. BCI firearms expert Matthew White
delivered what could turn out to be damning testimony in
the State of Ohio's case against George Wagner. Today, let's
stop here for another break. During Special Prosecutor Andy Wilson's
(26:37):
questioning of BCI agent Matthew White, prosecutors showed hundreds of
photos of shellcasings on the overhead screen. Jurors were seen
taking notes and at times sketching doodle drawings during the
long and often technical testimony. Were you able, based on
your knowledge or training, your experience, and the work that
(26:57):
you had done in this case examining book the shellcasings
and the projectiles, were you able to wring your an
opinion as to whether or not any guns listed on
that list could have been responsible for that the evidence
recovered from the scenes. I did, okay, and could you
tell the jury what that opinion was. I felt the
(27:19):
most likely candidates for firearms that could have been used
for the SKS seven sixty two by thirty nine and
the COLT nineteen eleven twenty two pistol. Well, based on
your review of this, you determined that the SKS seven
sixty two by thirty nine and the COLT nineteen eleven
(27:42):
twenty two could be contributors to the guns that were used,
could be the guns that were used in this case? Yes,
that are that is correct. Matthew White was also asked
if any of the shell casings found on the Wagner's
property matched any of the cartridge casings elected at the
crime scenes. And when you did those comparisons, were you
(28:06):
able to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to reach
a conclusion as to whether or not those exhibits that
were recovered from Peterson Road were fired from the same
firearm that fired the shell casings recovered from scene two
and see three. I was, and can you tell the
jury what that opinion was. I saw my microsoftic comparison
(28:27):
of the two fired twenty two long rifle cartridge cases
compared to the other fired twenty two long rifle cartridge cases.
I was able to conclude that all of the fired
twenty two long rifle cartridge cases had been fired in
the same firearm. The defense, however, tried to blunt the
testimony linking the Wagner's family's weapons to the murder scenes.
(28:50):
The cross examination lasted less than ten seconds after direction,
good after night, sir, to see it again, you too, sir.
You don't know fire weapon nice Sure I cannot say that.
Thank you, Jack. More on that next time. For more
information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on
(29:13):
Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Masker is produced
by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel
Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by
Jeff toa music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Masker is
a production of iHeart Radio and KAT Studios. For more
(29:36):
podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome
mar Fight County, Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord. I just thank
you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay,
(29:58):
hook on? Well Dad all over the house? Who could
have killed eight family members in one mile? I lost
my best friends and I will never be the same
because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses.
The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood.
(30:21):
The word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was
the master mind, I'm telling you is a crimer. I'm
not pitty in prison. One thing our lard. The smaller
the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch
our upcoming documentary The Pike County Murders, a family massacre,
(30:43):
premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on
Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November
twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts
are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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