March 22, 2023 • 30 mins
We’ve heard from experts, family members, and other insiders, but now for the first time ever we hear directly from accused murderer George Wager IV. Will his testimony sway the jury?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Were you aware at any time that Jake and your
dad and your mom weren't planning to kill the Rose?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
No?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Was that ever discussed with you?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
No?
Speaker 4 (00:11):
He said straight up, we don't get along. He said
there were times he wanted to leave, and I wondered
if that was really true, and maybe he did want.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
To leave, but he didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Describe your relationship name I looked hand as a baby sister.
Speaker 5 (00:29):
I personally was surprised that the sent specifically said were
you there? Did you do anything you know about it?
Any time? When did you find out that they were
guilty or that they had actually participated?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I never would have believed my family would be capable
of doing something of this magnitude.
Speaker 6 (00:50):
This is the Pike Did Massacre Returned to Pike County
Season four, episode twenty one, George Wagner takes the stand.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kat's Studios with
Stephanie Leidecer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that
George Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he
did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial
(01:14):
is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges.
Facing a mountain of evidence and testimony placing George Wagner
the Fourth at the center of the plot to kill
the Rodent family, his lawyers made a surprising decision to
call him to the stand. The unexpected move was described
as a quote Hail Mary by many trial watchers. During
(01:36):
his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers painted him as the black
sheep of the family. During the first day of his testimony,
George calmly disputed nearly everything that had been said about
him by other witnesses, and while describing his criminal upbringing,
George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting to escape from his
own family. Today.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It was a bombshell day, if you will, of testimony.
Speaker 6 (01:58):
For nine weeks, George Wagner the Fourth has sat quietly
as a parade of witnesses, from police investigators to his
own brother and mother picked apart his claim of innocence
and ignorance.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
George, let me adjust this microphone for you. Just keep
your voice up real loud so hear you. Please stage
your full name for the.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Record, George washing King Wagner the Fourth.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
You've been sitting in this trial for any weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Right, yes.
Speaker 6 (02:25):
But on the forty second day of the trial, wearing
a white collar dress shirt, dark tie, and a gray vest,
George Wagner took the stands in his own defense. His
attorney began by asking George to describe the troubled environment
he grew up in.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Let's talk about your education first. Okay, did you ever
go to a public school.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
For a very short period of time?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So how did you get your education?
Speaker 6 (02:51):
My mother homeschooled, but George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long.
By the age of fourteen, his official education was over.
It was replaced by a different type of education.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
When did you quit?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I felt that I didn't need anymore and I just
wanted to do my own thing. My father quit in
the sixth grade.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And so what did you want to do? Qu school?
What did you do with your life? Did you have
any or aspiration?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
When I was a young kid, I wanted to be
either a game warden or a forester. And when I
got older, my father pushed me more towards being a
decent mechanic and a truck driver. Was that my father
didn't want nobody in the family that wore a badge?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Why was that?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
He thought all law enforcement was crooked?
Speaker 6 (03:37):
George Wagner said when he was young, he and his
father had a great relationship and that the pair spent
many days hunting and fishing together. But his father, Billy Wagner,
was also responsible for George Wagner's other education.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
In your youth, did he teach you other things?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
My father taught me how to open a lock, how
to steal fuel, how the steel loads or break into loads?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
How did he actually do it? Did he set you
down and explain.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
How he bought uh, like a lock pick set in
terms of like a whole bunch of different locks and picks,
And then you sit us down for hours until we
could figure out how to open it?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
And what would what would he do? If anything? Would
you want you learn how to do that?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
After my brother and I learned how to do it,
he would go from my hotel to hotel in different
counties and open the vending machines in them.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Would he do it?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Usually you'd have my brother do it. Why your brother,
My brother can open the lock in a matter of seconds, right, well.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
What about your three four minutes? So your brother was
a little better picking locks? To me, Yes that your
dad took both in and around to pick one. Yes,
what kind of locks would you have? Your pick?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Pad locks? Vending machine locks was the most common door
locks on trucks. Ignition, which is all right? And what
would be the purpose vending machines? Yeah, he would take
the coin box and the cash box out of it.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
And did he teach you anything else around that age?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Just how to break in the trailers and drive off
his loads.
Speaker 7 (05:13):
And with the loads, you go around, take the padlock
and the hinges off so you don't break the seal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's it's the seal is broken. It's instantly. Somebody's been
in it. So you got to take a hinge off
and open it without it. But you see what's in
the trailer. If it's something you wanted, then you'd unload it.
If it's not, you put the handback on the way.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Ever knows it was opened, right and your was with you?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And he would pick out the truck. Yes, did he
have any like methods or codes or anything like that
as far as how would he pick out truck?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Usually it had to end up being a company truck.
But Walmart was like the one he went after more
than anything.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
And why was that you do?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
He despises Walmart. I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Now did your mother know about these activities?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yes? She was there ninety nine percent of the time.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yes, and she knew your father was teaching.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Were there other things that your father taught you around
how the steel fuel steal fuel? Yes, so your dad
taught you to steel fuel and pick lots. When you
would go out with your father, would he ever teach
you to look out for things or not look out
for things? Is or anything like that?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So the job was you were always supposed to make
sure you could see a top before they seen you,
or to know where every camera was.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
All right, So why did you explain how he touched it? Uh?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
It really goes back to when I was a kid
and he was still around in Pennsylvania a lot for
every cop me or my brother would see, we'd get
a dollar when we were a kid, all right, And
that goes back to like eight years old, even before
he started the theft.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
And how old is that life's weird?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Can eleven? He would go around and start out with
the we'd go down one street or something and if
we missed one that he missed, then we'd lose four
wheeler for a week. Or if he pointed one out,
the wee get and see we get four wheeler taken
for a week.
Speaker 6 (07:26):
Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8 (07:29):
The fact that George Wagner took the stand in his
own defense unexpectedly.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Nobody in the.
Speaker 8 (07:35):
Courtroom was anticipating him to take the stand that day,
and I have to say he was very composed. He
seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it. The stakes
could not be higher for him. And when he describes
his childhood, it's almost as though he was born into
a family of con artists. You know, here he is
being taught how to pick padlocks and steal fuel and
(07:56):
steal coins from vending machines. These are crimes. Granted, they
are petty crimes and nowhere equivalent to murder, but it
does paint a picture of what was happening in his
early days.
Speaker 9 (08:07):
It's possible that the defense was feeling the pressure and
decided it can't hurt to have George Wagner take the stand.
And I think he did a pretty good job. He
does not seem emotional to me. He seems more credible
than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now it might be different
because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories line up, she said,
(08:27):
versus he said. I mean, he's extremely prepared for this moment.
You know, we might be surprised, but I imagine this
is something he and his lawyers were working on for
weeks and probably running through potential questions and potential answers.
So for him, this is the culmination of probably a
lot of practice.
Speaker 8 (08:45):
And remember accused killer Dad Billy Wagner, he's very anti government,
anti law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him
preparing for the end of days. So the other side
of this is, you know, in a very rural area
in the event of a disaster, Billy Wagner wanted to
(09:05):
make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive
in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it.
But the truth was they were stealing, and they were
stealing on a very high level at a very young age.
Speaker 9 (09:19):
If I'm the Rodent family, I'm thinking, I don't care.
There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me,
you know, you got your ATV taken.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Away as a kid.
Speaker 9 (09:29):
I don't know how that equates to being a part
of an eight person homicide. But again, I mean this
whole case. You know, we've heard a lot of things
that we don't think are relevant, and what the jury
is thinking and what the judge's thinking, we can't say.
Speaker 8 (09:41):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's
attorneys are really painting a picture of a guy who
was considered maybe second best to his brother. Much has
been made about perhaps Jake was favored by his parents
and that George was always the outcast and trying to
step away from the family and maybe look away from
(10:03):
their scams and cons and just try to get out
to make a better life for himself. It matters, maybe
because it offers some insight into how he just has
always been used to ignoring them, and maybe that's how
he was able to ignore the fact that his family
was commiserating to murder eight people. Or is that just
(10:26):
wildly far fetched now decades later? Does that excuse you
of what you're being accused of? On the other hand,
it also does paint a picture of how people are
potentially indocrinated into really dangerous behavior.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
By the time George Wagner was a teenager. He said
he was growing apart from his own family and that
he was growing closer to his uncle Chris Nucom. The
two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs around the farm.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Let's talk about chrispher More. Explain your relationship with Chris.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Chris is more like a brother to me than an uncle.
That we were almost identical, and everything we like and do.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
And what type of things would you do to you go.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Mudd and hunting, fishing, Just see how far we could
go on four wheeler in a day.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
And would Jake be part of.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
This in his own way? Sometimes?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yes? All right?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
He was always left behind?
Speaker 3 (11:27):
And what was he left hunt?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
He didn't want to get his four wheeler as dirt Michael, ever,
he had dirty and he'd run like two mile an hour?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
And how were you and kristin?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Kind of like a bad out help.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
George Wagner said his brother Jake preferred to play video
games and to play with action figures.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
He had hundreds of them. Every time he got as
a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would
set them up on the shelf and stare at them
for hours.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
And did you play with him as well?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
No? But I would go in and move them when
he was there, just to see if he'd knows it,
and you could move with like a centimeter he'd know.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And did that ever cause any products?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Many many of fights?
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Would you do that just to kind of double your brother?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Just to antagonizing this?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Antagonize him? Did he have any particular video games he liked?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Marvel Universe, Resident Evil left for Dad? That's another one.
I can't remember what it was.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
What other type of things would you and Chris as.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
You got over right? Party run girls?
Speaker 6 (12:30):
Wagner testified he started drinking alcohol at age thirteen and
was partying regularly around the time he was eighteen years old.
George met Frankie Rodin the pair became quick friends.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Did you consider it a good friend or I can
said you one of my best friends?
Speaker 6 (12:45):
George said his life changed once he got his driver's license.
He made new friends and was able to get away
from his mother Angela and brother Jake.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Because I have freedom. Freedom I could leave when I wanted,
hang out for my uncle or Frankie or John and
Nathan Walls Garrett Leaf all right?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And did that cause any problems?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Back home on Bethel Hood, my mom was never happy
about it.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
She always said that I was leaving my brother to
do all the work, and I needed to be more
like him to stay home.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
Around the time George got his driver's license, his father,
Billy Wagner, bought him a huge Chevy pickup truck for
about twenty five hundred dollars. But even that purchase created
lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought more expensive pickup
for Jake.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
He got his three or four months before mine. My
mother made my father buy it for him, all right.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Was it a cheap truck and expensive truck?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It was sixteen thousand dollars, So he.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Got this sixteen thousand dollars truck before you got any truck?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes? And how did that make you feel considering the
one I wanted? Was I was told no for? And
then a couple of weeks later they bought my brother's
truck that was the same price. It not a good
feeling for a fifteen year old.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Did you express your feelings?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I brought it up many times my entire life.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
A little bit bitter about that.
Speaker 6 (14:06):
Yes, Still there, with freedom and new friends, George Wagner
spent most of his free time partying with Frankie roodin
at nearby Big Bear Lake.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Describe the drinking parties or whatever that you did.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
You played drinking games and drink until one of us
fell out, which was usually me.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Right, Did you enjoy that?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Did that cause any problems back at the home?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah? My mother didn't let me being down there.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Why.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
She said it was a bad environment and a bad
influences and I was basically going to end up sending
myself to hell from it.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
And how would she tell you that or when would
she tell you that?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Almost daily?
Speaker 6 (14:53):
George testified that his mother, Angela, regularly berated him for
his amoral lifestyle, also that she viewed Jake is an angel.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
When my mother had him paranoid that he was going
to go to hell, and she kept beating into everybody's
head if you do anything that you're making Jesus cry
and you're going to end up going to hell. She
would say that all the time. If you say one
curse word, or if you do anything which she thought
was that appropriate. What would she say that you're in,
you know, going down entirely bad road, or you're making
(15:24):
Jesus cry for this or that or depending on the situation.
What was your reaction, I really didn't have one. I
did what I wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
What about Jake?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Jake was always terrified of going to help.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
How would you describe Jake as compared to you at
this point?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
At this point, yeah, we are nothing alike.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
And how would you describe your relationship as you went
through your teams.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I spend as much time away from Jake as I
possibly could.
Speaker 6 (15:56):
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. George described his brother Jake as rude and
lacking a filter.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
He goes with somebody's house and he thinks he's dirty.
He's gonna tell him your house is filthy. If he
thinks you stink, he'll tell you go take a shower.
He has no filter.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Did that cause a problem.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yes. He insults people, and a lot of my friends
and stuff didn't like him being around. Did that cause
you yes, because then they didn't want to hang out
with me. My brother thinks that he's a satan, can
do no wrong, and he's better than everybody. And he
thinks that him being honest with people is what people
wants to hear about his opinion of their self, and did.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
That cause a problem with your relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yes, my mother thinks that I should be like him.
She's always said that, what do you mean. She thinks
that he's a satan, does no wrong, and she thinks
that I'm basically going to help.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
Here's investigative journalists and lawn crime reporter Anjeanette Levy.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
He made it sound like, you know, angela favorite Jake.
He always got in trouble for what Jake did. Jake
would blame him for things when they were kids. But
I mean, he said, straight up, we don't get along.
We'd fight all the time, and sometimes we get along,
and then most of the times we didn't. I can't
imagine existing like that. He said there were times he
(17:24):
wanted to leave, and I wondered if that was really true,
and maybe he did want to leave, but he didn't
do it.
Speaker 6 (17:30):
Later, George told the jury that his younger brother Jake,
was also regular at Big Bear Lake, but instead of partying,
Jake would hang out with his new thirteen year old girlfriend,
Hannah Mee Rodin.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
He would sit in the tan or around the campfire,
back and ark where he was with Hannah all night.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
He wouldn't join in with the Drew.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
No, he wouldn't let Hannah either.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Did Anna try to join sometimes?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yes, Jake wouldn't let her go. What he getting more
in Hannah having bad influences dranking her party.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
At this point in George's testimony, Having set up the
tensions between George and his mother and brother, defense attorney
John Parker pivoted back to the Wagner's life on Bethel
Hill and began to unpack the Wagner's history of criminal activity.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
The first house was a single white trailer. When six
years old, my mother tried to burn the house down.
That failed because she didn't know what she was doing
in the beginning, all right, explain the if there was
no heir, it's mother's out. And she had everything closed
up in the beginning, so just a kitchen, living room.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Mary barn all right, and your mother set that on fire.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
She had my father set it on fire. But it
was her plan, and she's the one taught my father
how to do it right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And you remember this when you were six or seven
years old? And what did you think about that when
you were a kid.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Really had no improt on it, George said, after his
parents remodeled their first trailer. They added a second one,
but once again, his parents set fire to their newly
remodeled home.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
In two thousand. You were about nine years old roughly,
all right? And what do you mean they.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Burned hy burned that one down and succeeded with that one.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Who's dead?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
My father and my mother?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And how did they burned?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Same MESSI there's always a whole batch of newspapers stuck
underneath the fusebox.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So at this point in time, when you're nine years old,
approximately your first two homes have been burned by your
mom and dad.
Speaker 6 (19:26):
Yes, later, the Wagoners built a more permanent home on
their property. It was nicknamed the quote Kentucky Wonder Mansion,
and George said he was fond of this house because
he had his own area that allowed him to leave
whenever he wanted. George said he often did this to
avoid working with his mother in her dog breeding business.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
She expected me and my brother to put in eight
to ten hour days and basically not get paid for it. Okay,
So every time she'd turn her back, I'd be gone.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And so what did your mom played?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
She'd always throw a fit for me leaving my brother.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And did she sell a lot of dogs? Lots of
them made money at it? A lot, right? And what
type of dogs.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
At that point? English bulldogs and laborator treads?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yes, were they always pure bread?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
She would well start with the labs. The English bulldogs
were legit because it's hard to find something that looks
like them. But the labs. If one of the females
had eight puffs, she would go to the pound and
get four or five more if it look like them.
And if she sold the eight, she'd just say she
(20:40):
didn't sell the eight, and then she'd resell the ones
that she got from the pound that may or may
not be a lab. Occasionally, if it had a white
spot on a black dog that looked identical to a lab,
she'd just dye the hair. Who was she would dye
the hair so it would turn it black and you
wouldn't have had a white spot on it. And how
long did the dog business go on until it burned?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
We came home from Columbus one night, late at night,
and it was laying in ashes, all four a dog
cannels And how many dogs close to one hundred?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Did you ever find out how that dog kill or burn?
Speaker 6 (21:18):
But the fires didn't stop. George said his parents burnt
the Kentucky Wonder Mansion in two thousand and seven. When
his parents considered moving to Alaska, however, they decided to
stay in Ohio and built a new house, which contained
a special room in the basement for a new business
opportunity with Chris Roden Sr.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
All Right, what was ever used?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It was used for growing marijuana.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Explain that it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Was ten foot wide by forty foot long.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
All right? And were you ever in that room?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
No?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I don't agree with drugs.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
George also testified that his family once stole a truckload
of boots.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
From the beginning, my father and other people that he
drove with had choices. Basically, they were either going to
take a load of diapers or a load of rocky boots.
Who actually hooked the trailer? I can't say. I was
not there. I don't live who hooked it. But the
plan was either the diapers or the boots. My mother
was pushing for the diapers, and my father and his
(22:14):
friends all wanted the boots, so my mother sided with
them and they went with the boots.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Okay, So what happened then?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
The boots showed up, and my dad's friends and hit
their family. My dad, my brother, and I my mom
unloaded the trailer, all right.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
And so what what happened next?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
We unloaded it and he got divided three ways, and
then they hauled the trailer out. Why everybody hauled their
boots to whoever's house they were going to?
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And how many boots are we talking about it?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Fifty three one oh two load thousands.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Thousands of boots? Yes, and your mom.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Was involved in that, Yes, she helped plant, She helped plant.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yes, and so did you guys get some of the boots.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Everybody in Pike County was wearing Rocky boots at that point.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Are you aware of any other deaths between two thousand
and five twenty fourteen, bomb or dad or family?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
How many do you want me to go into, because
I can go for days.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
George Wagner detailed many other crimes his family committed, from
stealing Dell computers to copper wiring after the items were sold.
George said his father, Billy Wagner, would hide money around
the country.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Did your dad ever tell you something about a pension
plant he had?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
My father used to say that he buried money across
the US in different spots. When he gets big, big
loads of stuff that he would take in all to
Mexico and sell. He would take the money and bury it.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Where would he bury it?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I can't say that, just know somewhere between here and Texas,
That's what he told. He said, multiple places.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
So if your standard, he would take a load.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Of what copper, aluminum, and he would come back.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yes, what would he come back with?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Brown paper bags full of money?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
How much money?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Anywhere? One hundred and two hundred thousand, depending on what
the price of scrap was at that time.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
How do you know it?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Because my brother and I would count it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
That was your job, Yes, to count that one.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
Yes, here again, Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8 (24:17):
This is pretty shocking. It's a pretty wild detail. Two
hundred thousand dollars in a little brown bag is a
lot of cash. So you're buying scraps, You're stealing scraps
of aluminum and copper, and then hiding the money in
various places throughout the country.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It's a big plan.
Speaker 8 (24:36):
It shows a lot of thinking. By the way, if
any of the wagoners were using some of these clever
ways of making money legally, imagine how successful they would be.
It takes a lot of thought and preparation and care
to even come up with the plan to be able
to hide money in various parts of the country, And
(24:57):
all of the stealing and the thieving and the oursin
and the receipts, it's just all used for bad. Does
that mean it's not such a leap to imagine them
as murderers? Maybe not.
Speaker 9 (25:10):
Where I think George Wagner's testimony goes a little off
the rails is this section about bearing money and all
of the things, because to me, it just makes the
whole family only seem more out of their minds, and
they looked at themselves as this criminal enterprise who everyone
was out to get them, and they were being trailed
and tracked at all the moments of the day, so
much so that they had to hide money across the
country and brown paper bags. It only to me adds
(25:32):
to the level of depravity and true lunacy that was
going on inside this home that, by all accounts, George
Wagner the fourth was very much a part of.
Speaker 6 (25:43):
Let's stop here for another break. Despite being close to
his father as a young boy, the pair grew apart
when George was a teenager and after his father Billy,
began driving long haul truck.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Routes after the dog kennels burned the last one, my
father started driving the truck.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
And did you notice any changes in your father after
he started driving.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yes, my father has a habit of wanting to be
identical to whoever he takes to the father figure at
the time.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
He has daddy issues?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Okay? And so when he started driving truck, did you
notice a change?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
What did you know?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
The guy he was driving with took multiple different things
to stay awake, and my father couldn't keep up with him,
so he started doing the same thing.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
What do you mean he started doing the thing.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
He would take? What's that guy he was driving with
was taking, like taking multiple handfuls of ad effects and
pain pills.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
And did you notice any changes in his.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Behaf It made him very irritable, hard to be around.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Did that cause any problems in your relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
With I loved it, He said he had a tumultuous
relationship with his father, Billy ever called three fist fights
they got into over the years.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
My brother ran me over with my own truck when
he was trying to look up a trailer and I
was yelling at my brother, and for some reason my
father went off on me, right, and.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
He said, your brother, Randy Lowe, was a a purpose.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Or an accident. He was not paying attention.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Were you injured?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Not really? Just a little black and blue, all right?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
And so what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
My father thought I was just yelling at my brother
for no reason and pushed me up against my truck
and dared me to hit him.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Okay, and you were sixteen, yes, and so what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I was just fed up with it, so I hit him.
What do you mean I hauled off and hit.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Him with your fist? Yes, And what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Then he hit the ground and he got back up
and we went into a fist fight.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
How long did that?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
A few minutes till my mother broke it up?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
And so did that first fist fight affect your relationship
with your death?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We didn't speak for a few weeks after that.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And so were there other instances or other times you
got into a fight.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
With your dad?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yes? Three more. I remember two more fist fights. In
one that was just like a massive verbal argument. He
called me dumb, say I wouldn't listen. Call me ignorant
all the time I worry about in my late teens.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
So what happened?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Then I hit him again?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Did he hit your back?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
We got into another fist fight for four or five
minutes until it endedn't.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Did that affect your relationship?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Another three or four weeks and they're talking to each other.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
In early twenty sixteen, there was another fight between George
and Billy. This one nearly turned deadly.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
My father got upset and while I was leaving and
broke the passenger's side window out of the truck and
shattered me a glass.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
How did he do that?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
He punched the window and then then my aari always
kept on my dash, He grabbed it and threw it
across the yard into the dog pin.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Fift.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
That's a gun, yes, and so you broke out the
passenger side window and grabbed your gun that was on
the dash.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And so what happened after?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I got upset because he just threw my arm But
I just recently bought a few months prior, and me
and my father went to another fist fight. Not to
really go into a lot of detail, but my father lost.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So did that affect your relationship?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yes, we went over two months without speaking. I want to.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
Say more on that next time. For more information on
the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at
katie Underscore Studios. The piked In Maskers produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me
(29:51):
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta Music
by Jared Aston. The piked In Masker is a production
of iHeartRadio on Katie's Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Were you aware at any time that Jake and your
dad and your mom weren't planning to kill the Rose?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
No?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Was that ever discussed with you?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
No?
Speaker 4 (00:11):
He said straight up, we don't get along. He said
there were times he wanted to leave, and I wondered
if that was really true, and maybe he did want.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
To leave, but he didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Describe your relationship name I looked hand as a baby sister.
Speaker 5 (00:29):
I personally was surprised that the sent specifically said were
you there? Did you do anything you know about it?
Any time? When did you find out that they were
guilty or that they had actually participated?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I never would have believed my family would be capable
of doing something of this magnitude.
Speaker 6 (00:50):
This is the Pike Did Massacre Returned to Pike County
Season four, episode twenty one, George Wagner takes the stand.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kat's Studios with
Stephanie Leidecer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that
George Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he
did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial
(01:14):
is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges.
Facing a mountain of evidence and testimony placing George Wagner
the Fourth at the center of the plot to kill
the Rodent family, his lawyers made a surprising decision to
call him to the stand. The unexpected move was described
as a quote Hail Mary by many trial watchers. During
(01:36):
his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers painted him as the black
sheep of the family. During the first day of his testimony,
George calmly disputed nearly everything that had been said about
him by other witnesses, and while describing his criminal upbringing,
George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting to escape from his
own family. Today.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It was a bombshell day, if you will, of testimony.
Speaker 6 (01:58):
For nine weeks, George Wagner the Fourth has sat quietly
as a parade of witnesses, from police investigators to his
own brother and mother picked apart his claim of innocence
and ignorance.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
George, let me adjust this microphone for you. Just keep
your voice up real loud so hear you. Please stage
your full name for the.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Record, George washing King Wagner the Fourth.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
You've been sitting in this trial for any weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Right, yes.
Speaker 6 (02:25):
But on the forty second day of the trial, wearing
a white collar dress shirt, dark tie, and a gray vest,
George Wagner took the stands in his own defense. His
attorney began by asking George to describe the troubled environment
he grew up in.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Let's talk about your education first. Okay, did you ever
go to a public school.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
For a very short period of time?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So how did you get your education?
Speaker 6 (02:51):
My mother homeschooled, but George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long.
By the age of fourteen, his official education was over.
It was replaced by a different type of education.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
When did you quit?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I felt that I didn't need anymore and I just
wanted to do my own thing. My father quit in
the sixth grade.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And so what did you want to do? Qu school?
What did you do with your life? Did you have
any or aspiration?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
When I was a young kid, I wanted to be
either a game warden or a forester. And when I
got older, my father pushed me more towards being a
decent mechanic and a truck driver. Was that my father
didn't want nobody in the family that wore a badge?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Why was that?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
He thought all law enforcement was crooked?
Speaker 6 (03:37):
George Wagner said when he was young, he and his
father had a great relationship and that the pair spent
many days hunting and fishing together. But his father, Billy Wagner,
was also responsible for George Wagner's other education.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
In your youth, did he teach you other things?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
My father taught me how to open a lock, how
to steal fuel, how the steel loads or break into loads?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
How did he actually do it? Did he set you
down and explain.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
How he bought uh, like a lock pick set in
terms of like a whole bunch of different locks and picks,
And then you sit us down for hours until we
could figure out how to open it?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
And what would what would he do? If anything? Would
you want you learn how to do that?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
After my brother and I learned how to do it,
he would go from my hotel to hotel in different
counties and open the vending machines in them.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Would he do it?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Usually you'd have my brother do it. Why your brother,
My brother can open the lock in a matter of seconds, right, well.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
What about your three four minutes? So your brother was
a little better picking locks? To me, Yes that your
dad took both in and around to pick one. Yes,
what kind of locks would you have? Your pick?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Pad locks? Vending machine locks was the most common door
locks on trucks. Ignition, which is all right? And what
would be the purpose vending machines? Yeah, he would take
the coin box and the cash box out of it.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
And did he teach you anything else around that age?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Just how to break in the trailers and drive off
his loads.
Speaker 7 (05:13):
And with the loads, you go around, take the padlock
and the hinges off so you don't break the seal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's it's the seal is broken. It's instantly. Somebody's been
in it. So you got to take a hinge off
and open it without it. But you see what's in
the trailer. If it's something you wanted, then you'd unload it.
If it's not, you put the handback on the way.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Ever knows it was opened, right and your was with you?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And he would pick out the truck. Yes, did he
have any like methods or codes or anything like that
as far as how would he pick out truck?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Usually it had to end up being a company truck.
But Walmart was like the one he went after more
than anything.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
And why was that you do?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
He despises Walmart. I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Now did your mother know about these activities?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yes? She was there ninety nine percent of the time.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yes, and she knew your father was teaching.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Were there other things that your father taught you around
how the steel fuel steal fuel? Yes, so your dad
taught you to steel fuel and pick lots. When you
would go out with your father, would he ever teach
you to look out for things or not look out
for things? Is or anything like that?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So the job was you were always supposed to make
sure you could see a top before they seen you,
or to know where every camera was.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
All right, So why did you explain how he touched it? Uh?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
It really goes back to when I was a kid
and he was still around in Pennsylvania a lot for
every cop me or my brother would see, we'd get
a dollar when we were a kid, all right, And
that goes back to like eight years old, even before
he started the theft.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
And how old is that life's weird?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Can eleven? He would go around and start out with
the we'd go down one street or something and if
we missed one that he missed, then we'd lose four
wheeler for a week. Or if he pointed one out,
the wee get and see we get four wheeler taken
for a week.
Speaker 6 (07:26):
Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8 (07:29):
The fact that George Wagner took the stand in his
own defense unexpectedly.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Nobody in the.
Speaker 8 (07:35):
Courtroom was anticipating him to take the stand that day,
and I have to say he was very composed. He
seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it. The stakes
could not be higher for him. And when he describes
his childhood, it's almost as though he was born into
a family of con artists. You know, here he is
being taught how to pick padlocks and steal fuel and
(07:56):
steal coins from vending machines. These are crimes. Granted, they
are petty crimes and nowhere equivalent to murder, but it
does paint a picture of what was happening in his
early days.
Speaker 9 (08:07):
It's possible that the defense was feeling the pressure and
decided it can't hurt to have George Wagner take the stand.
And I think he did a pretty good job. He
does not seem emotional to me. He seems more credible
than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now it might be different
because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories line up, she said,
(08:27):
versus he said. I mean, he's extremely prepared for this moment.
You know, we might be surprised, but I imagine this
is something he and his lawyers were working on for
weeks and probably running through potential questions and potential answers.
So for him, this is the culmination of probably a
lot of practice.
Speaker 8 (08:45):
And remember accused killer Dad Billy Wagner, he's very anti government,
anti law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him
preparing for the end of days. So the other side
of this is, you know, in a very rural area
in the event of a disaster, Billy Wagner wanted to
(09:05):
make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive
in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it.
But the truth was they were stealing, and they were
stealing on a very high level at a very young age.
Speaker 9 (09:19):
If I'm the Rodent family, I'm thinking, I don't care.
There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me,
you know, you got your ATV taken.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Away as a kid.
Speaker 9 (09:29):
I don't know how that equates to being a part
of an eight person homicide. But again, I mean this
whole case. You know, we've heard a lot of things
that we don't think are relevant, and what the jury
is thinking and what the judge's thinking, we can't say.
Speaker 8 (09:41):
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's
attorneys are really painting a picture of a guy who
was considered maybe second best to his brother. Much has
been made about perhaps Jake was favored by his parents
and that George was always the outcast and trying to
step away from the family and maybe look away from
(10:03):
their scams and cons and just try to get out
to make a better life for himself. It matters, maybe
because it offers some insight into how he just has
always been used to ignoring them, and maybe that's how
he was able to ignore the fact that his family
was commiserating to murder eight people. Or is that just
(10:26):
wildly far fetched now decades later? Does that excuse you
of what you're being accused of? On the other hand,
it also does paint a picture of how people are
potentially indocrinated into really dangerous behavior.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
By the time George Wagner was a teenager. He said
he was growing apart from his own family and that
he was growing closer to his uncle Chris Nucom. The
two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs around the farm.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Let's talk about chrispher More. Explain your relationship with Chris.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Chris is more like a brother to me than an uncle.
That we were almost identical, and everything we like and do.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
And what type of things would you do to you go.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Mudd and hunting, fishing, Just see how far we could
go on four wheeler in a day.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
And would Jake be part of.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
This in his own way? Sometimes?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yes? All right?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
He was always left behind?
Speaker 3 (11:27):
And what was he left hunt?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
He didn't want to get his four wheeler as dirt Michael, ever,
he had dirty and he'd run like two mile an hour?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
And how were you and kristin?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Kind of like a bad out help.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
George Wagner said his brother Jake preferred to play video
games and to play with action figures.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
He had hundreds of them. Every time he got as
a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would
set them up on the shelf and stare at them
for hours.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
And did you play with him as well?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
No? But I would go in and move them when
he was there, just to see if he'd knows it,
and you could move with like a centimeter he'd know.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And did that ever cause any products?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Many many of fights?
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Would you do that just to kind of double your brother?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Just to antagonizing this?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Antagonize him? Did he have any particular video games he liked?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Marvel Universe, Resident Evil left for Dad? That's another one.
I can't remember what it was.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
What other type of things would you and Chris as.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
You got over right? Party run girls?
Speaker 6 (12:30):
Wagner testified he started drinking alcohol at age thirteen and
was partying regularly around the time he was eighteen years old.
George met Frankie Rodin the pair became quick friends.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Did you consider it a good friend or I can
said you one of my best friends?
Speaker 6 (12:45):
George said his life changed once he got his driver's license.
He made new friends and was able to get away
from his mother Angela and brother Jake.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Because I have freedom. Freedom I could leave when I wanted,
hang out for my uncle or Frankie or John and
Nathan Walls Garrett Leaf all right?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And did that cause any problems?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Back home on Bethel Hood, my mom was never happy
about it.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
She always said that I was leaving my brother to
do all the work, and I needed to be more
like him to stay home.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
Around the time George got his driver's license, his father,
Billy Wagner, bought him a huge Chevy pickup truck for
about twenty five hundred dollars. But even that purchase created
lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought more expensive pickup
for Jake.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
He got his three or four months before mine. My
mother made my father buy it for him, all right.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Was it a cheap truck and expensive truck?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It was sixteen thousand dollars, So he.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Got this sixteen thousand dollars truck before you got any truck?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes? And how did that make you feel considering the
one I wanted? Was I was told no for? And
then a couple of weeks later they bought my brother's
truck that was the same price. It not a good
feeling for a fifteen year old.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Did you express your feelings?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I brought it up many times my entire life.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
A little bit bitter about that.
Speaker 6 (14:06):
Yes, Still there, with freedom and new friends, George Wagner
spent most of his free time partying with Frankie roodin
at nearby Big Bear Lake.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Describe the drinking parties or whatever that you did.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
You played drinking games and drink until one of us
fell out, which was usually me.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Right, Did you enjoy that?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Did that cause any problems back at the home?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah? My mother didn't let me being down there.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Why.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
She said it was a bad environment and a bad
influences and I was basically going to end up sending
myself to hell from it.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
And how would she tell you that or when would
she tell you that?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Almost daily?
Speaker 6 (14:53):
George testified that his mother, Angela, regularly berated him for
his amoral lifestyle, also that she viewed Jake is an angel.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
When my mother had him paranoid that he was going
to go to hell, and she kept beating into everybody's
head if you do anything that you're making Jesus cry
and you're going to end up going to hell. She
would say that all the time. If you say one
curse word, or if you do anything which she thought
was that appropriate. What would she say that you're in,
you know, going down entirely bad road, or you're making
(15:24):
Jesus cry for this or that or depending on the situation.
What was your reaction, I really didn't have one. I
did what I wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
What about Jake?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Jake was always terrified of going to help.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
How would you describe Jake as compared to you at
this point?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
At this point, yeah, we are nothing alike.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
And how would you describe your relationship as you went
through your teams.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I spend as much time away from Jake as I
possibly could.
Speaker 6 (15:56):
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. George described his brother Jake as rude and
lacking a filter.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
He goes with somebody's house and he thinks he's dirty.
He's gonna tell him your house is filthy. If he
thinks you stink, he'll tell you go take a shower.
He has no filter.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Did that cause a problem.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yes. He insults people, and a lot of my friends
and stuff didn't like him being around. Did that cause
you yes, because then they didn't want to hang out
with me. My brother thinks that he's a satan, can
do no wrong, and he's better than everybody. And he
thinks that him being honest with people is what people
wants to hear about his opinion of their self, and did.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
That cause a problem with your relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yes, my mother thinks that I should be like him.
She's always said that, what do you mean. She thinks
that he's a satan, does no wrong, and she thinks
that I'm basically going to help.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
Here's investigative journalists and lawn crime reporter Anjeanette Levy.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
He made it sound like, you know, angela favorite Jake.
He always got in trouble for what Jake did. Jake
would blame him for things when they were kids. But
I mean, he said, straight up, we don't get along.
We'd fight all the time, and sometimes we get along,
and then most of the times we didn't. I can't
imagine existing like that. He said there were times he
(17:24):
wanted to leave, and I wondered if that was really true,
and maybe he did want to leave, but he didn't
do it.
Speaker 6 (17:30):
Later, George told the jury that his younger brother Jake,
was also regular at Big Bear Lake, but instead of partying,
Jake would hang out with his new thirteen year old girlfriend,
Hannah Mee Rodin.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
He would sit in the tan or around the campfire,
back and ark where he was with Hannah all night.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
He wouldn't join in with the Drew.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
No, he wouldn't let Hannah either.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Did Anna try to join sometimes?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yes, Jake wouldn't let her go. What he getting more
in Hannah having bad influences dranking her party.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
At this point in George's testimony, Having set up the
tensions between George and his mother and brother, defense attorney
John Parker pivoted back to the Wagner's life on Bethel
Hill and began to unpack the Wagner's history of criminal activity.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
The first house was a single white trailer. When six
years old, my mother tried to burn the house down.
That failed because she didn't know what she was doing
in the beginning, all right, explain the if there was
no heir, it's mother's out. And she had everything closed
up in the beginning, so just a kitchen, living room.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Mary barn all right, and your mother set that on fire.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
She had my father set it on fire. But it
was her plan, and she's the one taught my father
how to do it right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And you remember this when you were six or seven
years old? And what did you think about that when
you were a kid.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Really had no improt on it, George said, after his
parents remodeled their first trailer. They added a second one,
but once again, his parents set fire to their newly
remodeled home.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
In two thousand. You were about nine years old roughly,
all right? And what do you mean they.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Burned hy burned that one down and succeeded with that one.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Who's dead?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
My father and my mother?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And how did they burned?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Same MESSI there's always a whole batch of newspapers stuck
underneath the fusebox.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So at this point in time, when you're nine years old,
approximately your first two homes have been burned by your
mom and dad.
Speaker 6 (19:26):
Yes, later, the Wagoners built a more permanent home on
their property. It was nicknamed the quote Kentucky Wonder Mansion,
and George said he was fond of this house because
he had his own area that allowed him to leave
whenever he wanted. George said he often did this to
avoid working with his mother in her dog breeding business.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
She expected me and my brother to put in eight
to ten hour days and basically not get paid for it. Okay,
So every time she'd turn her back, I'd be gone.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And so what did your mom played?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
She'd always throw a fit for me leaving my brother.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And did she sell a lot of dogs? Lots of
them made money at it? A lot, right? And what
type of dogs.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
At that point? English bulldogs and laborator treads?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yes, were they always pure bread?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
She would well start with the labs. The English bulldogs
were legit because it's hard to find something that looks
like them. But the labs. If one of the females
had eight puffs, she would go to the pound and
get four or five more if it look like them.
And if she sold the eight, she'd just say she
(20:40):
didn't sell the eight, and then she'd resell the ones
that she got from the pound that may or may
not be a lab. Occasionally, if it had a white
spot on a black dog that looked identical to a lab,
she'd just dye the hair. Who was she would dye
the hair so it would turn it black and you
wouldn't have had a white spot on it. And how
long did the dog business go on until it burned?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
We came home from Columbus one night, late at night,
and it was laying in ashes, all four a dog
cannels And how many dogs close to one hundred?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Did you ever find out how that dog kill or burn?
Speaker 6 (21:18):
But the fires didn't stop. George said his parents burnt
the Kentucky Wonder Mansion in two thousand and seven. When
his parents considered moving to Alaska, however, they decided to
stay in Ohio and built a new house, which contained
a special room in the basement for a new business
opportunity with Chris Roden Sr.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
All Right, what was ever used?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It was used for growing marijuana.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Explain that it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Was ten foot wide by forty foot long.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
All right? And were you ever in that room?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
No?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I don't agree with drugs.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
George also testified that his family once stole a truckload
of boots.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
From the beginning, my father and other people that he
drove with had choices. Basically, they were either going to
take a load of diapers or a load of rocky boots.
Who actually hooked the trailer? I can't say. I was
not there. I don't live who hooked it. But the
plan was either the diapers or the boots. My mother
was pushing for the diapers, and my father and his
(22:14):
friends all wanted the boots, so my mother sided with
them and they went with the boots.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Okay, So what happened then?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
The boots showed up, and my dad's friends and hit
their family. My dad, my brother, and I my mom
unloaded the trailer, all right.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
And so what what happened next?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
We unloaded it and he got divided three ways, and
then they hauled the trailer out. Why everybody hauled their
boots to whoever's house they were going to?
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And how many boots are we talking about it?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Fifty three one oh two load thousands.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Thousands of boots? Yes, and your mom.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Was involved in that, Yes, she helped plant, She helped plant.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yes, and so did you guys get some of the boots.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Everybody in Pike County was wearing Rocky boots at that point.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Are you aware of any other deaths between two thousand
and five twenty fourteen, bomb or dad or family?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
How many do you want me to go into, because
I can go for days.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
George Wagner detailed many other crimes his family committed, from
stealing Dell computers to copper wiring after the items were sold.
George said his father, Billy Wagner, would hide money around
the country.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Did your dad ever tell you something about a pension
plant he had?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
My father used to say that he buried money across
the US in different spots. When he gets big, big
loads of stuff that he would take in all to
Mexico and sell. He would take the money and bury it.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Where would he bury it?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I can't say that, just know somewhere between here and Texas,
That's what he told. He said, multiple places.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
So if your standard, he would take a load.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Of what copper, aluminum, and he would come back.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yes, what would he come back with?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Brown paper bags full of money?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
How much money?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Anywhere? One hundred and two hundred thousand, depending on what
the price of scrap was at that time.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
How do you know it?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Because my brother and I would count it.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
That was your job, Yes, to count that one.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
Yes, here again, Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8 (24:17):
This is pretty shocking. It's a pretty wild detail. Two
hundred thousand dollars in a little brown bag is a
lot of cash. So you're buying scraps, You're stealing scraps
of aluminum and copper, and then hiding the money in
various places throughout the country.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It's a big plan.
Speaker 8 (24:36):
It shows a lot of thinking. By the way, if
any of the wagoners were using some of these clever
ways of making money legally, imagine how successful they would be.
It takes a lot of thought and preparation and care
to even come up with the plan to be able
to hide money in various parts of the country, And
(24:57):
all of the stealing and the thieving and the oursin
and the receipts, it's just all used for bad. Does
that mean it's not such a leap to imagine them
as murderers? Maybe not.
Speaker 9 (25:10):
Where I think George Wagner's testimony goes a little off
the rails is this section about bearing money and all
of the things, because to me, it just makes the
whole family only seem more out of their minds, and
they looked at themselves as this criminal enterprise who everyone
was out to get them, and they were being trailed
and tracked at all the moments of the day, so
much so that they had to hide money across the
country and brown paper bags. It only to me adds
(25:32):
to the level of depravity and true lunacy that was
going on inside this home that, by all accounts, George
Wagner the fourth was very much a part of.
Speaker 6 (25:43):
Let's stop here for another break. Despite being close to
his father as a young boy, the pair grew apart
when George was a teenager and after his father Billy,
began driving long haul truck.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Routes after the dog kennels burned the last one, my
father started driving the truck.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
And did you notice any changes in your father after
he started driving.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yes, my father has a habit of wanting to be
identical to whoever he takes to the father figure at
the time.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
He has daddy issues?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Okay? And so when he started driving truck, did you
notice a change?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
What did you know?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
The guy he was driving with took multiple different things
to stay awake, and my father couldn't keep up with him,
so he started doing the same thing.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
What do you mean he started doing the thing.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
He would take? What's that guy he was driving with
was taking, like taking multiple handfuls of ad effects and
pain pills.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
And did you notice any changes in his.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Behaf It made him very irritable, hard to be around.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Did that cause any problems in your relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
With I loved it, He said he had a tumultuous
relationship with his father, Billy ever called three fist fights
they got into over the years.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
My brother ran me over with my own truck when
he was trying to look up a trailer and I
was yelling at my brother, and for some reason my
father went off on me, right, and.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
He said, your brother, Randy Lowe, was a a purpose.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Or an accident. He was not paying attention.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Were you injured?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Not really? Just a little black and blue, all right?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
And so what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
My father thought I was just yelling at my brother
for no reason and pushed me up against my truck
and dared me to hit him.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Okay, and you were sixteen, yes, and so what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I was just fed up with it, so I hit him.
What do you mean I hauled off and hit.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Him with your fist? Yes, And what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Then he hit the ground and he got back up
and we went into a fist fight.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
How long did that?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
A few minutes till my mother broke it up?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
And so did that first fist fight affect your relationship
with your death?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We didn't speak for a few weeks after that.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And so were there other instances or other times you
got into a fight.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
With your dad?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yes? Three more. I remember two more fist fights. In
one that was just like a massive verbal argument. He
called me dumb, say I wouldn't listen. Call me ignorant
all the time I worry about in my late teens.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
So what happened?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Then I hit him again?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Did he hit your back?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
We got into another fist fight for four or five
minutes until it endedn't.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Did that affect your relationship?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Another three or four weeks and they're talking to each other.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
In early twenty sixteen, there was another fight between George
and Billy. This one nearly turned deadly.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
My father got upset and while I was leaving and
broke the passenger's side window out of the truck and
shattered me a glass.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
How did he do that?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
He punched the window and then then my aari always
kept on my dash, He grabbed it and threw it
across the yard into the dog pin.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Fift.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
That's a gun, yes, and so you broke out the
passenger side window and grabbed your gun that was on
the dash.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And so what happened after?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I got upset because he just threw my arm But
I just recently bought a few months prior, and me
and my father went to another fist fight. Not to
really go into a lot of detail, but my father lost.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So did that affect your relationship?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yes, we went over two months without speaking. I want to.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
Say more on that next time. For more information on
the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at
katie Underscore Studios. The piked In Maskers produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me
(29:51):
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta Music
by Jared Aston. The piked In Masker is a production
of iHeartRadio on Katie's Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
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