November 5, 2025 • 26 mins
Three years. Three Seasons. Countless questions. In this final episode, the Idaho Massacre team reflect on this case of loss and resilience—and the listeners who have followed every development.
Check us out online:
www.tiktok.com/@officialktstudios
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Bombshell development Brian Koberger appearing set to accept a plea
deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was
set to start. Brian Coberger was simply out of options
and out of time. Why did the prosecution take this?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
They were holding.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
All the cards.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
He essentially gets to live rent free, no expenses for
the rest of his life, and we call that justice.
It's insane.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode twelve, listener questions. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at Kat's Studios, along with Stephanie Leidecker, Body Movin,
and Alison Bankston, who you'll hear reading the questions. We're
(00:58):
starting off with Jack from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
So the first one we have here. I mean, I
know you guys have had a chance to go through
all of these recently released selfies that came out a
few weeks ago. I think, oh man, there's got to
be around sixty or more. They're quite bizarre, and Jack
is wondering, you know, when you look at these selfies,
how do you feel about them? And what do you
think they say about Brian Coberger's mindset before and after
(01:22):
the murders.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Yeah, there is a noticeable difference between the selfies Brian
Coberger took prior to November thirteenth, twenty twenty two and
after November thirteenth, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
And in the.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
Selfies pre murder, he seems like he's hiking, he's out,
he's doing things. He's taking pictures of himself that seem
kind of normal, you know, he's eating dinner. And then
in the selfies after the murder, he's posing, he's looking
at his body, he's flexing, he's pulling his hair back,
he's making faces. It's almost as if he's seeing himself
(02:00):
for the first time. And I don't know what to
make of That's almost as if doing this was something
he was like, Yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do,
I'm supposed to be this this murderer, and it gave
him confidence in something and the idea that he was
getting away with it.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I was just going to say, because of the randomness
of this case or this again, there doesn't appear to
be any logical motive in any way. It was just
an attempt for him to actually feel something. I think
you say it so correctly, like it almost appeared. Not
that I would ever really understand what Brian Koberger was
thinking when he took the selfies after the murder, but
(02:38):
maybe he was looking to see do I feel something
for the first time? And this is so extreme, what
a pathological way to attempt to feel something? Again, we
don't really have the answers, but do you recognize yourself
for the first time? That to me kind of tracks
(02:59):
and maybe scary is do you feel something for the
first time?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
So the next one we have here is from Kate
and Portland, Maine. She was wondering about some of the
headlines that came out last week. It was revealed last
week that Amanda Coburger, Brian Coberger's sister, was you know it,
she was going to be on the witness list and
people were wondering if this is maybe one of the
reasons that Brian Coberger decided to plead guilty. Kate is wondering,
(03:24):
what are your thoughts on this. Do you think Amanda's
possible presence at trial had anything to do with him
deciding to plea and if not, why do you think
he decided to plea?
Speaker 5 (03:34):
The court filings recently revealed that Amanda Coberger was listed
as a potential witness for the prosecution, right and you know,
according to all these reports, this list occurred just a
few days before Brian accepted this plea deal that avoided
this full trial that would have brought her to the stand.
I personally don't think it had anything to do with
him pleading guilty at all. I don't think Brian Coberger
(03:56):
has the emotional ability to put family's comfort level above
his own. I think that it was more of saving
his life because the judge had been denying motion after
motion after motion that the defense was presenting. The defense
had presented the alibi defense, the third party culpability defense.
(04:20):
They kept asking for continuances because of the media, and
it just kept getting denied. And at the last motion
hearing that got denied, the judge said, the last best
offer is due at the end of the month, and
that's when Brian plug guilty. I don't think it had
anything to do with a manicoburger. I completely concur I
think that's exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Right to that extent. We've spoken to so many legal
experts who have really weighed in on this throughout the years,
and many have said, including Stephen Greenberg, who was a
contributor in this podcast season one and two, who recently
passed away and our Hearts go out, they called it
from day one that the alibi wouldn't have held up
(05:00):
and that there was enough damning information, maybe not for
the death penalty, but for penalty in general. So it's unknowable.
I guess that's the stuff we all kind of still
want to know, right What was that alibi all about?
Where was that concocted? Was that concocted? Is that something
that he actually used to do?
Speaker 5 (05:20):
I think Brian Coberger has gotten away with a lot
of crap his whole life that I think he thought
he was going to be able to get away with this,
and that the judge was just going to believe, Okay,
this was his alibi. I'm going to accept this as
his defense, and he's going to be able to present
in court.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Which is technically their job. I have to sell up
whatever the alibi is that's given. It's not the defense
attorney's job to be able to concoct an alibi. If
someone's giving the alibi and they're shaking their heads, yes,
that this is what the alibi is there's no journey
back from that.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Here's all the photos I've taken hiking, and remember the dateline.
Leak mentioned that the friends saw him out there, and
he made it a point to run up to them
and be like, hey, remember I'm Brian Coberger. He was
preparing for this the entire time.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Do you think he was panicked the entire time after
the murders, when he was walking around Costco with coffee,
when he was returning to the crime scene, in the
hours after the murders, when he went home to Mom
and Dad. Is he looking over his shoulder the entire time,
petrified knowing that at any moment the doorbell was about
to ring and he was a had man.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
You're all not in your head. I don't know no
more in his head than you guys are. But I
could go fifty to fifty on that. He could have
been cool as a cucumber and I did what I
set out to do. I am so much smarter than
anyone around. There's no universe there gonna find me. And
he may have been in a state of peace and bliss.
(06:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
I think once he realized he left the sheath, there
was a moment of panic. But I think he probably thought, oh,
I cleaned it so well, I not realizing the knooks
and cran he's in that snap, right. I think initially
he was like, yeah, I'm good, even all about the sheath,
I'm good. As time went on, and now they've got
the Hyundai, right, I think as time went on he
(07:11):
started getting panickdea right.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
And next we have an email from Jerry in Carmel, California.
He's wondering, you know, back in July when the victim
impact statements were made, which ones to this day still
stand out to you? Which ones really left a lasting
impact on you today?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Olivia Gonzalvez unbelievable, a master class. Olivia Gonzalvez is victim
impact statement. That's Kaylee's older sister. Was a master class
in how to deal with a narcissist or how to
deal with, frankly, anyone who's not giving back the decency
(07:51):
and kindness and reciprocity of just answers, basic answers. I
think Olivia Gonzalvez knocked it out of the park.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
I think a beautiful woman, smartmouthing Brian Koberger is exactly
what he needed. But I think a lot of people
are going to say that Olivia Gonsalves's was the best one,
because it really was the best one. But I'm going
to say Kim Karnodle, and she was the aunt of
Xana Cernodle, and she said, you know, the loss of
her niece, you know, at first it's burred anger within
their family, but recently it's brought them closer. And she
(08:25):
said something along the lines of you united us with
your actions, and we have a family and friends now
that we never even knew we had, and I have
forgiven you. And I thought that was so graceful. I
would I don't know if I would have been able
to do that, and I took it. I think it
took a lot of guts to be different, and I
think Kim Karnodle was very different. They were all very impactful.
(08:46):
In fact, Steve Gonsalez has kind of said the same thing, like,
you know, we are all united in thinking you are
the biggest loser in the world. This theme of uniting
in being united against him, I thought was impact.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
One of the victim's aunts actually said to Brian Cooberger,
if you need an ear to listen, I will be
there and I will be a fair listener and I
welcome that, and you are forgiven in my heart or
that's all paraphrasing, but that was sprising and that is
(09:22):
an evolved woman who knows how to make her own
peace with what is, and that was very generous.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
The next question we have here is from Kayla in
New York, New York. So in episode ten, we interviewed
independent journalist Olivia Batally and Kyla Gonsalvus's brother, Stephen Gonsalves
about their love story, and they credit Katie Studio's documentary
The Idaho Student Murders was bringing them together. Kayla is
wondering how does it feel to have played a small
part in their love story.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
We made the documentary The Idaho Student Murders, which is
also airing now on Peacock, and that's where we first
met Stephen and Olivia. In some ways, we like to
believe in our hearts that Catherine Park, the director, kind
of brought them together and was a bit of an
unknowing matchmaker. But I can tell you, you know, he was
a very different guy even during that interview and now
(10:15):
listening to him post all this excessive amounts of trauma
and how he's speaking about the future and you can
hear a lightness in his voice. It's really touching and
it's really important.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
I think about this all the time. I'm calling it
Kaylee's gift. Kaylee Gonsalves is responsible for her brother's happiness.
Look at this. I mean, obviously he would never want
this to happen, right, but he never would have met
the love of his life had it not happened. And
maybe that is Kaylee's gift to him.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I would say just the documentary says it all. Frankly,
it is the darkest topic that could possibly be discussed,
the darkest time in the Gonzalvez family, and I find
it incredibly inspiring and frankly, having seen all of it
from beginning, middle and end, I eat it up and
(11:10):
I wish them so much happiness.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. You're listening to the Idaho Massacre. I'm Courtney,
joined by Stephanie and Body, and we're diving into some
of the biggest listener questions you've sent in this season.
Our producer Alison Bankston from Katie Studios is here to
(11:39):
read them. This next one comes in from Jake in Lubbock, Texas.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
So Jake is saying, you know, obviously the DNA and
on the knife sheath was the biggest thing by far
evidence wise, But throughout this investigation, what was for you
some other big things that make you think there's no
way this guy's going to get off.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Oh well, I thought he was going to get off
time and time again. We debated this to nauseum. I
was the last man standing. I could explain away everything.
It was also circumstantial, although the totality of the evidence
was not great, and the sheath was real hard to explain.
But there was a moment that I thought, well, maybe
(12:20):
somebody just went to a knife store like a swap meet,
and they purchased a knife, and that knife just happened
to be one that Brian Coburger had many years ago.
And I know that sounds so silly retrospectively, but I
can say for myself, the day we found out that
he had ordered that particular knife on Amazon was kind
(12:43):
of a jaw dropper and hard to come back from.
And I was devastated to find that out.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
You really hung your hat on the knife store scenario
and I would try so hard to fight with logic
or numbers, like you know, it seemed so implausible. Aside
from the knife sheath, you know, that is paramount. It
was all of the multiple GPS that he was driving
by the house so many times again without need or reason.
(13:14):
That was explained, I think.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
In order of importance, Setting aside the knife sheath, right,
setting aside the DNA, I'm going to go with the
cell phone data and the pings and the delocation data.
You know, his phone was pinging near the home. It
was turned off, and we learned that it was physically
turned off. It wasn't like, you know, the battery didn't die.
(13:38):
He turned off the phone. In combination with the vehicle surveillance,
he was traveling in that direction based on his phone
and surveillance video. And then after those things, I think
probably the behavioral aspect of things, you know, his search queries,
his Reddit posts, his searches for or sleeping an unconscious
(14:02):
female rape. Combining that with cleaning his car thoroughly and
disposing trash throughout the neighborhood, and the totality of the
evidence to me, even without the sheath, is pretty compelling.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
This next one we actually got a DM from Tara
on Instagram. Her locations unknown, but she wants to know
if any listener feedback has surprised you. Throughout the production
of all three seasons of this.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Podcast, the pro Burgers very much surprised me. The people
who are thinking that Brian Coberger is innocent very much
surprised me because they're looking at really absurd and crazy
theories to replace reality, and you know, like this underground
fight club, and that there were these tunnels that led
(14:49):
to the house that the killer snuck out of, and
insane things that Steve Consalvez was running a crypto scam
and had his daughter killed, like just insane things. To me,
those things very much surprise me.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And by the way, to that end, it's not as
though I didn't personally want Brian Coberger to be guilty.
I just wanted to make sure that we didn't have
tunnel vision. It seemed as though the whole world had
decided he was guilty and the media had decided it
was him, and frankly, we used to say sometimes behind
the scenes, man, what if it's not Though I don't
(15:25):
see any active search for anybody else right now, is
it possible that there is some level of tunnel vision here.
And while this circumstantial evidence is really hard to explain
again in its totality and when I look at it now,
in its totality, it's frankly impossible to explain. But we
were getting those in breadcrumbs, and at some point it
(15:46):
felt like, well, if it is this guy, then surely
he may have struck prior. There does not appear to
be any evidence of that, although likely that he was
in and out of people's homes. I mean that in
and of itself is extremely scary. And again we have
to really thank law enforcement because based on what we
know today, he would have struck again, and that is
(16:08):
a sure thing.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
One hundred percent. Yeah, I completely agree. And this next
one we have here is from Shirley and Fargo, North Dakota.
She is wondering, do you think Brian Koberger got a
fair shake leading up to his trial? How do you
think this case was handled in the press throughout these
past three years.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
It's easy to Monday Morning quarterback and to say that
it was done righteously. Listen, the science were fact and
stuck with me that Unlike Stephanie, I'll be honest, I
really always thought this was the guy. How is the
touch DNA otherwise going to be there? Why is he
(16:46):
on this called de sac of a street many multiple
times when he has no right or business to be there.
So that was evidence that came out, and I think
a lot of the media coverage was based upon those facts,
and I feel just fine about that.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
I think the combination of this small town dynamic plus
the high emotion combined into kind of an unwinnable battle.
The case took place in a really small community in Moscow, Idaho.
This deeply affected the students and neighbors and surrounding cities.
There was this ripple effect that we talk about, and
(17:25):
I do think that given all the media and the
coverage from podcast creators to YouTube creators to mainstream media,
I think that there could be a case that, you know,
a pretty strong case actually that the media environment made
it a lot harder for Brian Coberger to receive the
ideal conditions. However, all these things were presented to the judge,
(17:46):
but to judges in this case, it did get moved
to a bigger jurisdiction and the motions that were supplied
to these judges, you know, he did get a fair shake.
The judge was able to move it. He agreed and
he moved it, and you know, also said that the
media coverage was fair and also said that they were
going to look into the investor, you know, who leaked
all these things to the media. So all in all,
(18:08):
I think he did get a fair shake, but I
think there could be an argument that he didn't.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
And listen, we hear this a lot in true crime
in general. There is this frenzy from the media that
people want answers right away when the crime immediately happens.
Imagine people are banging on your door and looking for
answers and needing content. And I think we hear often
in many of the cases that we work on how
(18:33):
traumatic that is as well, and it's something we're all
navigating and always trying to do better with. And you know,
hopefully that's scene as people caring, but that also can
be kind of a double punch when you're already trying
to navigate a really harrowing time.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Perfect, Thank you all. The next one we have is
from Eliana in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She is wondering what
do you think it has been like for Brian's family?
To go through this whole ordeal.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I can't imagine what it would be like to be
related to Brian Coberger, certainly if you're not in any
way anticipating that somebody that you love so deeply is
now the guy. This person has now pled So what
does that mean? Honestly, I don't know the answer to that.
It is so layered and complicated and nuanced, but I
(19:25):
can only imagine it's extraordinarily painful and confusing. It's hopefully
a position that many of us will never have to understand.
But my heart is with them. I feel a lot
of compassion for them, and they're grieving too and just
trying to piece things together as well.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
I imagine that Brian Coberger's family has been in this
prolonged sense of limbo, but their's is like a what if, right,
because I imagine they're probably sitting at home going there's
no way our son are in A beloved brother or
cousin did this right, and I'm sure that's going to
be with them for the rest of their lives. Being
related to somebody causing such harm to so many people
(20:07):
probably means dealing with vicarious trauma too, right and Shane
By association and the sense that their story is now
part of this big public narrative they've had no control
over and no pardon.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Right, absolutely nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
So that's got to be I just hope that their
family is getting therapy.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. I'm Courtney here with Stephanie and Body. We're
answering a few of the listener questions that have come
in throughout the season. KG Studio producer Alison Bankston is
reading the questions for us.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
Our next question comes from Brian and Jacksonville, Florida. He
wants to know what are some key takeaways you have
from this case as a whole.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
I don't have a solid takeaway just yet. Right now.
It's just such a tragic loss, the whole thing. Just
what a waste that this guy set this tragedy into motion.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Same, Honestly, it's so senseless. All I could think is
what would Ethan and Xana and Kaylee and Madison be
doing today? How happy would their lives be, and where
would they be off to? And again, another thing we'll
never know because one person decided their life mattered more.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
For me, this case underscored how microscopic and digital and
behavioral data can converge and build this can you know,
really convincing and compelling evidentiary web. And my big takeaway
from this case is that, you know, the totality of
(21:59):
evidence is going to matter in cases moving forward, and
IgG is going to be involved in more cases moving forward. Now,
I know that's not a big emotional takeaway, but it
might help with future convictions and stop this from happening
in the future. And the ripple effect is one of
my big takeaways. You know, there were so many people
(22:21):
that weren't related to the victims, that weren't in close
proximity to the victims, that were deeply affected by this,
deeply affected, And often I think about, you know, I've
watched the surveillance, the vehicle surveillance of Brian Colberger circling
the King Roadhouse hundreds of times, and I often pause
when he makes this three point turn and he's driving
(22:44):
past the King Roadhouse and it's almost like he says,
I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna I'm not gonna do this,
and he makes his three point turn. He almost like
he like he's making U turn because he's talking himself
into it. I think in that one moment where he
could have just gone home. Anybody makes this three point
turn in it's it changes everyone's life.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
I often watch that and say, just don't turn around,
don't turn around, just go, just go.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And I guess that turning point, that inflection point, is
one that we're always trying to understand. And maybe that's
the spirit of kind of evaluating these cases, right. We
want to better understand why that moment and again I
don't know that we ever will.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
And our last one is from Sherry in Chicago, Illinois.
She wants to know what comes after this? How do
you begin to move on after covering a case like
this for three years.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I think it's important to have some sort of like
closing ritual, right and I think that right now this
moment is my closing ritual. A lot of the times,
you know, some detective friends that I have made over
the years, they have a case closure meeting and you know,
in our case, you know, we're not investigators, but we've
been talking about this case for three years, and this
is my meeting. And maybe I know, even a symbolic
(24:01):
act like lighting a candle or even deleting my spreadsheets
is part of maybe this closing ritual that I need
to go through. And I need to replace this cognitive loop,
checking for case updates every day, checking for new case
documents that have been released on the Idaho website. I
need to replace those with healthier alternatives. And you know,
maybe I'll move on to looking at like wrongful convictions
(24:23):
or maybe forensic breakthroughs or historical mysteries. I don't know,
but I need to replace this cognitive loop. And right now,
this is my closure and talking about it is important too,
and I think being able to talk to you guys
about this has been therapeutic. And I'm going to miss
this as well.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I guess that's the closure here, right Sometimes the loop
has to be closed even if it's still open, because
there is no closure, there is no motive. And I
would hope that those families are all piecing together some
semblance of sanity post that I feel like we could
have gone to high school with any of the girls,
(25:04):
or with Ethan, and frankly even with Brian. And I
guess that's the intersection that will never quite make sense.
There is an intersection between what could have been great
that is now forever tarnish. This case ripped our hearts
out and that whole will remain and I am just
(25:24):
sending love and prayers to the families of the victims.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre
is produced by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo, and
me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Toois,
Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacer is a production
(25:51):
of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
into your favorite shows.
Bombshell development Brian Koberger appearing set to accept a plea
deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was
set to start. Brian Coberger was simply out of options
and out of time. Why did the prosecution take this?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
They were holding.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
All the cards.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
He essentially gets to live rent free, no expenses for
the rest of his life, and we call that justice.
It's insane.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode twelve, listener questions. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at Kat's Studios, along with Stephanie Leidecker, Body Movin,
and Alison Bankston, who you'll hear reading the questions. We're
(00:58):
starting off with Jack from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
So the first one we have here. I mean, I
know you guys have had a chance to go through
all of these recently released selfies that came out a
few weeks ago. I think, oh man, there's got to
be around sixty or more. They're quite bizarre, and Jack
is wondering, you know, when you look at these selfies,
how do you feel about them? And what do you
think they say about Brian Coberger's mindset before and after
(01:22):
the murders.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Yeah, there is a noticeable difference between the selfies Brian
Coberger took prior to November thirteenth, twenty twenty two and
after November thirteenth, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
And in the.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
Selfies pre murder, he seems like he's hiking, he's out,
he's doing things. He's taking pictures of himself that seem
kind of normal, you know, he's eating dinner. And then
in the selfies after the murder, he's posing, he's looking
at his body, he's flexing, he's pulling his hair back,
he's making faces. It's almost as if he's seeing himself
(02:00):
for the first time. And I don't know what to
make of That's almost as if doing this was something
he was like, Yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do,
I'm supposed to be this this murderer, and it gave
him confidence in something and the idea that he was
getting away with it.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I was just going to say, because of the randomness
of this case or this again, there doesn't appear to
be any logical motive in any way. It was just
an attempt for him to actually feel something. I think
you say it so correctly, like it almost appeared. Not
that I would ever really understand what Brian Koberger was
thinking when he took the selfies after the murder, but
(02:38):
maybe he was looking to see do I feel something
for the first time? And this is so extreme, what
a pathological way to attempt to feel something? Again, we
don't really have the answers, but do you recognize yourself
for the first time? That to me kind of tracks
(02:59):
and maybe scary is do you feel something for the
first time?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
So the next one we have here is from Kate
and Portland, Maine. She was wondering about some of the
headlines that came out last week. It was revealed last
week that Amanda Coburger, Brian Coberger's sister, was you know it,
she was going to be on the witness list and
people were wondering if this is maybe one of the
reasons that Brian Coberger decided to plead guilty. Kate is wondering,
(03:24):
what are your thoughts on this. Do you think Amanda's
possible presence at trial had anything to do with him
deciding to plea and if not, why do you think
he decided to plea?
Speaker 5 (03:34):
The court filings recently revealed that Amanda Coberger was listed
as a potential witness for the prosecution, right and you know,
according to all these reports, this list occurred just a
few days before Brian accepted this plea deal that avoided
this full trial that would have brought her to the stand.
I personally don't think it had anything to do with
him pleading guilty at all. I don't think Brian Coberger
(03:56):
has the emotional ability to put family's comfort level above
his own. I think that it was more of saving
his life because the judge had been denying motion after
motion after motion that the defense was presenting. The defense
had presented the alibi defense, the third party culpability defense.
(04:20):
They kept asking for continuances because of the media, and
it just kept getting denied. And at the last motion
hearing that got denied, the judge said, the last best
offer is due at the end of the month, and
that's when Brian plug guilty. I don't think it had
anything to do with a manicoburger. I completely concur I
think that's exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Right to that extent. We've spoken to so many legal
experts who have really weighed in on this throughout the years,
and many have said, including Stephen Greenberg, who was a
contributor in this podcast season one and two, who recently
passed away and our Hearts go out, they called it
from day one that the alibi wouldn't have held up
(05:00):
and that there was enough damning information, maybe not for
the death penalty, but for penalty in general. So it's unknowable.
I guess that's the stuff we all kind of still
want to know, right What was that alibi all about?
Where was that concocted? Was that concocted? Is that something
that he actually used to do?
Speaker 5 (05:20):
I think Brian Coberger has gotten away with a lot
of crap his whole life that I think he thought
he was going to be able to get away with this,
and that the judge was just going to believe, Okay,
this was his alibi. I'm going to accept this as
his defense, and he's going to be able to present
in court.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Which is technically their job. I have to sell up
whatever the alibi is that's given. It's not the defense
attorney's job to be able to concoct an alibi. If
someone's giving the alibi and they're shaking their heads, yes,
that this is what the alibi is there's no journey
back from that.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Here's all the photos I've taken hiking, and remember the dateline.
Leak mentioned that the friends saw him out there, and
he made it a point to run up to them
and be like, hey, remember I'm Brian Coberger. He was
preparing for this the entire time.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Do you think he was panicked the entire time after
the murders, when he was walking around Costco with coffee,
when he was returning to the crime scene, in the
hours after the murders, when he went home to Mom
and Dad. Is he looking over his shoulder the entire time,
petrified knowing that at any moment the doorbell was about
to ring and he was a had man.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
You're all not in your head. I don't know no
more in his head than you guys are. But I
could go fifty to fifty on that. He could have
been cool as a cucumber and I did what I
set out to do. I am so much smarter than
anyone around. There's no universe there gonna find me. And
he may have been in a state of peace and bliss.
(06:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
I think once he realized he left the sheath, there
was a moment of panic. But I think he probably thought, oh,
I cleaned it so well, I not realizing the knooks
and cran he's in that snap, right. I think initially
he was like, yeah, I'm good, even all about the sheath,
I'm good. As time went on, and now they've got
the Hyundai, right, I think as time went on he
(07:11):
started getting panickdea right.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
And next we have an email from Jerry in Carmel, California.
He's wondering, you know, back in July when the victim
impact statements were made, which ones to this day still
stand out to you? Which ones really left a lasting
impact on you today?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Olivia Gonzalvez unbelievable, a master class. Olivia Gonzalvez is victim
impact statement. That's Kaylee's older sister. Was a master class
in how to deal with a narcissist or how to
deal with, frankly, anyone who's not giving back the decency
(07:51):
and kindness and reciprocity of just answers, basic answers. I
think Olivia Gonzalvez knocked it out of the park.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
I think a beautiful woman, smartmouthing Brian Koberger is exactly
what he needed. But I think a lot of people
are going to say that Olivia Gonsalves's was the best one,
because it really was the best one. But I'm going
to say Kim Karnodle, and she was the aunt of
Xana Cernodle, and she said, you know, the loss of
her niece, you know, at first it's burred anger within
their family, but recently it's brought them closer. And she
(08:25):
said something along the lines of you united us with
your actions, and we have a family and friends now
that we never even knew we had, and I have
forgiven you. And I thought that was so graceful. I
would I don't know if I would have been able
to do that, and I took it. I think it
took a lot of guts to be different, and I
think Kim Karnodle was very different. They were all very impactful.
(08:46):
In fact, Steve Gonsalez has kind of said the same thing, like,
you know, we are all united in thinking you are
the biggest loser in the world. This theme of uniting
in being united against him, I thought was impact.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
One of the victim's aunts actually said to Brian Cooberger,
if you need an ear to listen, I will be
there and I will be a fair listener and I
welcome that, and you are forgiven in my heart or
that's all paraphrasing, but that was sprising and that is
(09:22):
an evolved woman who knows how to make her own
peace with what is, and that was very generous.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
The next question we have here is from Kayla in
New York, New York. So in episode ten, we interviewed
independent journalist Olivia Batally and Kyla Gonsalvus's brother, Stephen Gonsalves
about their love story, and they credit Katie Studio's documentary
The Idaho Student Murders was bringing them together. Kayla is
wondering how does it feel to have played a small
part in their love story.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
We made the documentary The Idaho Student Murders, which is
also airing now on Peacock, and that's where we first
met Stephen and Olivia. In some ways, we like to
believe in our hearts that Catherine Park, the director, kind
of brought them together and was a bit of an
unknowing matchmaker. But I can tell you, you know, he was
a very different guy even during that interview and now
(10:15):
listening to him post all this excessive amounts of trauma
and how he's speaking about the future and you can
hear a lightness in his voice. It's really touching and
it's really important.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
I think about this all the time. I'm calling it
Kaylee's gift. Kaylee Gonsalves is responsible for her brother's happiness.
Look at this. I mean, obviously he would never want
this to happen, right, but he never would have met
the love of his life had it not happened. And
maybe that is Kaylee's gift to him.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I would say just the documentary says it all. Frankly,
it is the darkest topic that could possibly be discussed,
the darkest time in the Gonzalvez family, and I find
it incredibly inspiring and frankly, having seen all of it
from beginning, middle and end, I eat it up and
(11:10):
I wish them so much happiness.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. You're listening to the Idaho Massacre. I'm Courtney,
joined by Stephanie and Body, and we're diving into some
of the biggest listener questions you've sent in this season.
Our producer Alison Bankston from Katie Studios is here to
(11:39):
read them. This next one comes in from Jake in Lubbock, Texas.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
So Jake is saying, you know, obviously the DNA and
on the knife sheath was the biggest thing by far
evidence wise, But throughout this investigation, what was for you
some other big things that make you think there's no
way this guy's going to get off.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Oh well, I thought he was going to get off
time and time again. We debated this to nauseum. I
was the last man standing. I could explain away everything.
It was also circumstantial, although the totality of the evidence
was not great, and the sheath was real hard to explain.
But there was a moment that I thought, well, maybe
(12:20):
somebody just went to a knife store like a swap meet,
and they purchased a knife, and that knife just happened
to be one that Brian Coburger had many years ago.
And I know that sounds so silly retrospectively, but I
can say for myself, the day we found out that
he had ordered that particular knife on Amazon was kind
(12:43):
of a jaw dropper and hard to come back from.
And I was devastated to find that out.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
You really hung your hat on the knife store scenario
and I would try so hard to fight with logic
or numbers, like you know, it seemed so implausible. Aside
from the knife sheath, you know, that is paramount. It
was all of the multiple GPS that he was driving
by the house so many times again without need or reason.
(13:14):
That was explained, I think.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
In order of importance, Setting aside the knife sheath, right,
setting aside the DNA, I'm going to go with the
cell phone data and the pings and the delocation data.
You know, his phone was pinging near the home. It
was turned off, and we learned that it was physically
turned off. It wasn't like, you know, the battery didn't die.
(13:38):
He turned off the phone. In combination with the vehicle surveillance,
he was traveling in that direction based on his phone
and surveillance video. And then after those things, I think
probably the behavioral aspect of things, you know, his search queries,
his Reddit posts, his searches for or sleeping an unconscious
(14:02):
female rape. Combining that with cleaning his car thoroughly and
disposing trash throughout the neighborhood, and the totality of the
evidence to me, even without the sheath, is pretty compelling.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
This next one we actually got a DM from Tara
on Instagram. Her locations unknown, but she wants to know
if any listener feedback has surprised you. Throughout the production
of all three seasons of this.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Podcast, the pro Burgers very much surprised me. The people
who are thinking that Brian Coberger is innocent very much
surprised me because they're looking at really absurd and crazy
theories to replace reality, and you know, like this underground
fight club, and that there were these tunnels that led
(14:49):
to the house that the killer snuck out of, and
insane things that Steve Consalvez was running a crypto scam
and had his daughter killed, like just insane things. To me,
those things very much surprise me.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And by the way, to that end, it's not as
though I didn't personally want Brian Coberger to be guilty.
I just wanted to make sure that we didn't have
tunnel vision. It seemed as though the whole world had
decided he was guilty and the media had decided it
was him, and frankly, we used to say sometimes behind
the scenes, man, what if it's not Though I don't
(15:25):
see any active search for anybody else right now, is
it possible that there is some level of tunnel vision here.
And while this circumstantial evidence is really hard to explain
again in its totality and when I look at it now,
in its totality, it's frankly impossible to explain. But we
were getting those in breadcrumbs, and at some point it
(15:46):
felt like, well, if it is this guy, then surely
he may have struck prior. There does not appear to
be any evidence of that, although likely that he was
in and out of people's homes. I mean that in
and of itself is extremely scary. And again we have
to really thank law enforcement because based on what we
know today, he would have struck again, and that is
(16:08):
a sure thing.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
One hundred percent. Yeah, I completely agree. And this next
one we have here is from Shirley and Fargo, North Dakota.
She is wondering, do you think Brian Koberger got a
fair shake leading up to his trial? How do you
think this case was handled in the press throughout these
past three years.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
It's easy to Monday Morning quarterback and to say that
it was done righteously. Listen, the science were fact and
stuck with me that Unlike Stephanie, I'll be honest, I
really always thought this was the guy. How is the
touch DNA otherwise going to be there? Why is he
(16:46):
on this called de sac of a street many multiple
times when he has no right or business to be there.
So that was evidence that came out, and I think
a lot of the media coverage was based upon those facts,
and I feel just fine about that.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
I think the combination of this small town dynamic plus
the high emotion combined into kind of an unwinnable battle.
The case took place in a really small community in Moscow, Idaho.
This deeply affected the students and neighbors and surrounding cities.
There was this ripple effect that we talk about, and
(17:25):
I do think that given all the media and the
coverage from podcast creators to YouTube creators to mainstream media,
I think that there could be a case that, you know,
a pretty strong case actually that the media environment made
it a lot harder for Brian Coberger to receive the
ideal conditions. However, all these things were presented to the judge,
(17:46):
but to judges in this case, it did get moved
to a bigger jurisdiction and the motions that were supplied
to these judges, you know, he did get a fair shake.
The judge was able to move it. He agreed and
he moved it, and you know, also said that the
media coverage was fair and also said that they were
going to look into the investor, you know, who leaked
all these things to the media. So all in all,
(18:08):
I think he did get a fair shake, but I
think there could be an argument that he didn't.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
And listen, we hear this a lot in true crime
in general. There is this frenzy from the media that
people want answers right away when the crime immediately happens.
Imagine people are banging on your door and looking for
answers and needing content. And I think we hear often
in many of the cases that we work on how
(18:33):
traumatic that is as well, and it's something we're all
navigating and always trying to do better with. And you know,
hopefully that's scene as people caring, but that also can
be kind of a double punch when you're already trying
to navigate a really harrowing time.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Perfect, Thank you all. The next one we have is
from Eliana in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She is wondering what
do you think it has been like for Brian's family?
To go through this whole ordeal.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I can't imagine what it would be like to be
related to Brian Coberger, certainly if you're not in any
way anticipating that somebody that you love so deeply is
now the guy. This person has now pled So what
does that mean? Honestly, I don't know the answer to that.
It is so layered and complicated and nuanced, but I
(19:25):
can only imagine it's extraordinarily painful and confusing. It's hopefully
a position that many of us will never have to understand.
But my heart is with them. I feel a lot
of compassion for them, and they're grieving too and just
trying to piece things together as well.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
I imagine that Brian Coberger's family has been in this
prolonged sense of limbo, but their's is like a what if, right,
because I imagine they're probably sitting at home going there's
no way our son are in A beloved brother or
cousin did this right, and I'm sure that's going to
be with them for the rest of their lives. Being
related to somebody causing such harm to so many people
(20:07):
probably means dealing with vicarious trauma too, right and Shane
By association and the sense that their story is now
part of this big public narrative they've had no control
over and no pardon.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Right, absolutely nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
So that's got to be I just hope that their
family is getting therapy.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. I'm Courtney here with Stephanie and Body. We're
answering a few of the listener questions that have come
in throughout the season. KG Studio producer Alison Bankston is
reading the questions for us.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
Our next question comes from Brian and Jacksonville, Florida. He
wants to know what are some key takeaways you have
from this case as a whole.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
I don't have a solid takeaway just yet. Right now.
It's just such a tragic loss, the whole thing. Just
what a waste that this guy set this tragedy into motion.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Same, Honestly, it's so senseless. All I could think is
what would Ethan and Xana and Kaylee and Madison be
doing today? How happy would their lives be, and where
would they be off to? And again, another thing we'll
never know because one person decided their life mattered more.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
For me, this case underscored how microscopic and digital and
behavioral data can converge and build this can you know,
really convincing and compelling evidentiary web. And my big takeaway
from this case is that, you know, the totality of
(21:59):
evidence is going to matter in cases moving forward, and
IgG is going to be involved in more cases moving forward. Now,
I know that's not a big emotional takeaway, but it
might help with future convictions and stop this from happening
in the future. And the ripple effect is one of
my big takeaways. You know, there were so many people
(22:21):
that weren't related to the victims, that weren't in close
proximity to the victims, that were deeply affected by this,
deeply affected, And often I think about, you know, I've
watched the surveillance, the vehicle surveillance of Brian Colberger circling
the King Roadhouse hundreds of times, and I often pause
when he makes this three point turn and he's driving
(22:44):
past the King Roadhouse and it's almost like he says,
I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna I'm not gonna do this,
and he makes his three point turn. He almost like
he like he's making U turn because he's talking himself
into it. I think in that one moment where he
could have just gone home. Anybody makes this three point
turn in it's it changes everyone's life.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
I often watch that and say, just don't turn around,
don't turn around, just go, just go.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And I guess that turning point, that inflection point, is
one that we're always trying to understand. And maybe that's
the spirit of kind of evaluating these cases, right. We
want to better understand why that moment and again I
don't know that we ever will.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
And our last one is from Sherry in Chicago, Illinois.
She wants to know what comes after this? How do
you begin to move on after covering a case like
this for three years.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I think it's important to have some sort of like
closing ritual, right and I think that right now this
moment is my closing ritual. A lot of the times,
you know, some detective friends that I have made over
the years, they have a case closure meeting and you know,
in our case, you know, we're not investigators, but we've
been talking about this case for three years, and this
is my meeting. And maybe I know, even a symbolic
(24:01):
act like lighting a candle or even deleting my spreadsheets
is part of maybe this closing ritual that I need
to go through. And I need to replace this cognitive loop,
checking for case updates every day, checking for new case
documents that have been released on the Idaho website. I
need to replace those with healthier alternatives. And you know,
maybe I'll move on to looking at like wrongful convictions
(24:23):
or maybe forensic breakthroughs or historical mysteries. I don't know,
but I need to replace this cognitive loop. And right now,
this is my closure and talking about it is important too,
and I think being able to talk to you guys
about this has been therapeutic. And I'm going to miss
this as well.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I guess that's the closure here, right Sometimes the loop
has to be closed even if it's still open, because
there is no closure, there is no motive. And I
would hope that those families are all piecing together some
semblance of sanity post that I feel like we could
have gone to high school with any of the girls,
(25:04):
or with Ethan, and frankly even with Brian. And I
guess that's the intersection that will never quite make sense.
There is an intersection between what could have been great
that is now forever tarnish. This case ripped our hearts
out and that whole will remain and I am just
(25:24):
sending love and prayers to the families of the victims.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre
is produced by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo, and
me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Toois,
Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacer is a production
(25:51):
of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
into your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.