June 22, 2022 • 32 mins
With George Wagner’s trial looming, key evidence against the man accused of helping to plot and kill 8 members of the Rhoden family is coming into focus. Outside of the courtroom, we’ve learned that for those closest to him, coming to terms with who George was and what he’s now being accused of is nearly impossible to reconcile.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
George was pretty much my brother. I mean, if I
was ever going to have anybody I considered brother, it
would have been him. How would you describe him? Hard working,
down to hers boy, do anything in the world for anybody.
If I was broke down three states over at two
o'clock in the morning, I could call him. He's about
the only one that I miss is George Trump. I'm sorry.
(00:24):
So how did George get wrapped up into this? Well,
since they was young, they was beat into his head
that he always had to take care of his little brother,
no matter what. Can't let nobody heard his little brother
always had to take his little brother's side, no matter what.
And I think I'd had something to do with it.
(00:46):
This is the Piketon Massacre. Returned to Pike County season three,
episode five, One Eyed Wolf. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television
producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Ledeger and Jeff Shane.
George Wagner is a waiting trial in Pike County for
his involvement in the murders of the Roden family. He's
(01:08):
pleaded not guilty after two seasons of reporting details of
what allegedly went down on the night of April twenty first,
twenty sixteen have slowly come into focus, but we still
know little about the eldest son of the Wagner clan,
George Wagner. In this episode, we talked to the people
who knew George the best and delve into why many
(01:29):
are still trying to comprehend his potential involvement in the
piked of Nassacre. In May of twenty seventeen, thirteen months
after the murders, investigators sent a swat team to the
Wagner's property to search for evidence. Around that time, George
changed his social media profile picture and an online group
picked it up immediately, screenshot at it and posted it.
(01:53):
Here's an anonymous Wagner and Roden family source. It's crazy.
I don't know what all is out. It's not out.
But when all this went down, he had posted what
is it called your profile picture of a wolf that
had a chart in one eye. And if you get
on there and read that Angela is on there and
tell him he needs to delete it, you know you
(02:15):
shouldn't be doing that. And then everybody in this group
that I'm in was like, oh, that's like pointing to
him having shot Kenny, and Angela commented on it really
questioned you Mark. Everybody in his Facebook group was like,
oh my gosh, he's the one who shot Kenny. Kenneth Roden,
brother of patriarch Chris Roden Senior, was the eighth and
(02:37):
final victim to be discovered. This was five hours after
Bobby Joe Manley discovered the first bodies and called nine
one one, I need it's been about to close to
seven nine nine. Okay. This is family member Donald Stone
calling from Kenneth's home, seven miles away from the other
(02:58):
crime scenes all this stuff. It's going to news. I
just found just found Martezans was again shot and I
don't know what his address is. Hanting out of the house.
I'm out of the house right now. Is just winning
or nighting Stone found Kenneth lying in his bed, face up,
covered in blood. He had dollar bills strewn over the
(03:21):
lower half of his body. He was the only victim
killed with a single gunshot wound to the head, specifically
through his right eye. This is like the picture of
the wolf and George's profile that piqued people's interest online.
Here's Stephanie and Jeff. It came to our attention that
in October of twenty eighteen, about a month before the
(03:44):
Wagners were arrested, George Wagner changed his profile picture to
a cartoon wolf that has a scar over its right eye,
and on that picture, his mother, Angela Wagner, commented, really,
we can only assume this picture represents Kenneth Roden, who
was shot in the right eye, and that George Wagner
(04:06):
was somehow bragging or making a callback to the way
Kenneth Rodan was murdered. We do also know that Kenneth
Roden was really the only victim who was shot just
once in their right eye, and the significance of that
(04:28):
might be tied to this photo. It feels like a
stretch a little bit, to be honest. So he posted
this on October fourth, twenty eighteen, and a few weeks
prior to that, on September nineteenth, twenty eighteen, is when
the autopsy notes were released and everyone found out that
Kenneth was shot in the right eye. And so it
(04:49):
seems like a bit of a coincidence that we as
the public, find out that Kenneth Roden was shot in
the right eye, and then George Wagner posts this photo
of a wolf scar over its right eye, and that
maybe wouldn't be connected. But then if it wasn't, why
would Angela make that comment? Because if it's just a
(05:10):
picture of a wolf, like, what does his mom care
what he posts on Facebook? And it doesn't have this
kind of deeper meaning. So much has been made about
this online and in various different Facebook groups. It could
really just be a complete coincidence. It could, but we
can only assume what the Wagners did. I think it's
fair to scrutinize all of their behavior prior to the
(05:33):
arrests and following the murders. What would be the significance
of that. Either he's bragging or is he giving a
signal to someone else? What is the connective tissue there?
The way I read into it is that he's bragging
about the murders. Why would he do that? We do
(05:53):
know they get arrested one month later. Many people in
the area were saying that the Wagoners were expecting to
be arrested at any moment, And it really does make
you wonder why they were so busy on social media
in the first place. If you feared that you were
going to be arrested, why would you possibly go on
(06:13):
social media? Period. The way it was presented to me
was that it was more of a matter of fact
that the police think we're tied up in this, we're
going to get arrested, but we're going to get out
because we're innocent. It's just a formality. And so the
way I think, at least they were portraying themselves to
(06:35):
their friends and family was that they were very confident
about their innocence and all of this, and that they
would not be roped into it too much. Jake was
the one that literally said he shot five people or
killed five people in shot six and I don't know,
(06:58):
I mean, who was the other person? Well anything, I
think Billy, you know, would have been the crazy one
to do something, because Billy has always come up with
these crazy schemes. Billy I would not put past to
do anything. I feel like he would be at a
gas station and shoot somebody. I probably George would throw
up if he shot somebody, but I don't know. I
(07:20):
don't know. Last season, it seems like the only thing
we heard about George Wagner was that he was an
abusive husband and all around a pretty bad guy. But
as the court proceedings have kind of continued, we've talked
to more and more people who were close with George
Wagner and have kind of told us the opposite of
(07:41):
what we've always heard. Everyone we've spoken to as of
late has said nothing but nice things about him, basically
that he was this great guy and they are shocked
that he was involved in this murder. No one seems
to have a hard time imagining that Billy, Jake, or
even Angela could have planned, murdered and covered up crime.
But people have a really hard time wrapping their head
(08:03):
around George Wagner being involved, which is surprising to me
because we did hear about how terribly he treated his
wife when they all lived with his mother, Angela Wagner,
and the whole accused family mistreated her. This season, yeah,
we've heard quite the opposite. All we really have so
(08:24):
far is Jake's plea deal, where he has testified that
that George was only their last minute and really was
only there to protect Jake from their father, which you know,
we're still trying to unpack what that actually means. So
let's play that out really quickly. Just this scenario, as
we maybe know it right now, according to all of
(08:44):
these plea agreements, Jake, who has admitted to five killings,
and Dad Billy Wagner they were the ones that were
going to go out and do all of the killings.
So that's five that Jake was going to do or
has admitted to, leaving the remaining three maybe done by Billy.
(09:05):
Yet at the very last minute, George, the oldest brother,
to protect his younger brother, decides to go along with them,
even though he's been a part of the planning, he
wasn't intending ongoing And now, according to Angela Wagner, she
stayed behind to babysit. So now George tags along. What
does that mean? Is he equally responsible? Is he not
(09:28):
responsible at all? He was a part of all the planning,
so maybe he wasn't one of the trigger pullers. But
it also speaks to the larger question of why would
George Wagner think their father was going to kill or
harm Jake Wagner. It's certainly a good question, and I
(09:49):
wonder if George's defense will bring that up, because I
think in the eyes of the law, if you plan
a murder and you're at the murder, you're pretty culpable
in the crime, and so whether you're there to protect
someone else or not, we'll see if that matters and
how much that will play out in his upcoming trial.
If we're just going to play along with this version
(10:10):
of a tale, if George Wagner was just tagging along
to protect Jake Wagner from their father, Billy Wagner, go
with me here for one quick second, that would imply
that Billy Wagner dad was allegedly going to kill or
harm Jake Wagner. Why would he do that? Like, why
would George have to protect Jake from their dad? And
(10:33):
I guess the only thing that would sort of make
sense is because maybe Billy Wagner was going to kill
Jake Wagner just so there was nobody left to tournament. Yeah,
there would have been one less witness. And as we
know the kind of how the dynamics of the family were,
(10:53):
Jake and Angela Wagner were very close, and Billy and
George Wagner were very close. So perhaps George felt that
if he went he could maybe talk some sense for
lack of a better term, into his dad and protect
Jake at the same time. It's certainly complicated. It's important
to note that both George and Billy Wagner have pleaded
(11:14):
not guilty on all counts and have not yet had
their day in court. So everything we're talking about is
just Jake and Angela Wagner's version of events. Otherwise the
prosecution would not allow their version of events to be, frankly,
the foundation of their upcoming trials. Yeah, certainly the prosecution
believes Jake and Angela's version of how things went down
(11:34):
that night. But it's just important to note that Billy
and George are disputing all this, and it's not just
us stuff who are trying to unpack this. The people
who were close with the Wagner family are still kind
of wrapping their head around all of this, particularly Chris Newcome, who,
(11:55):
as we know as Angela Wagner's half brother, was very
close with George and in talking to him numerous times.
He's still really grappling with this whole situation and still
trying to come to terms with George Wagner's possible involvement.
And it's been six years since this whole thing happened.
Chris was born when his older half sister, Angela was
twenty the age gap kept the two from growing close,
(12:18):
but Chris was drawn to her boys, specifically to George.
I mean, help me in my nephews. We grew up
more like brothers than we did in huncle and nephews.
I'm two and a half years older than Jake, in
a year and a half older than George. I was
always closer to George than I was with Jake. Man George,
we'd always go hunting, fishing, camping. He always wanted to
have his own hunting show. Do you know you wanted
(12:39):
to go on TV Hunti's monster deer and turkey and
elk and stuff like it. I mean he loved hunting
that much. Sammy Joe spoke with us earlier in the
season about both the Rodin and Wagner families. She dated
Frankie Rodin from seventh to ninth grade and was involved
with Jake Wagner at times, but she also had a
(13:02):
crush on George. I probably shouldn't say this, but Jake
we pretty much stopped talking because I think Angela thought
I was trying to get Jake to break up with Hannah,
and that's not what it was. Because I didn't want Jake.
I wanted George. What did you like A bad George?
Just his goofiness. Honestly, George, he's a big teddy bear. Really.
(13:27):
I remember a time I got a hold of George
and I told him I was like, I can't afford Christmas.
I don't know what to do. And he goes meet
me at the gas station. He gave me money to
pay my electric bill and bought my daughter present. Wow,
so he was like your Santa Claus. Yeah, Like you
broke my heart when I found out he was married
the first time. And did you ever confess to George
(13:48):
that you kind of liked him? Nope, Now he'll never know.
He was just a nice guy, good to be around,
you know, didn't really talk too much, but he was
definitely a nice person. Howard grew up with the Wagners
and lived near them in both Ohio and Alaska. I
just remember my sister. I'll keep her name out of him,
(14:09):
but she kind of had a crush on George and
she would always talking to him on Facebook and things
like that. It's very funny because you're the second person
today who has made mention of a family member, specifically
his sister who kind of loved George. From a distance
and still have the nicest, kindest things to say of him.
If I had a daughter and he were hurried, that's
(14:30):
who I would want my daughter nating. He was just
a great guy. He was super nice, like very friendly.
Jake cab the other hair was kind of secluded, kind
of recluse, but George was just nice, like all around
a nice guy. We've been able to speak with a
whole host of new family members and friends this season. Patricia,
you may recall, is one of them. I think God
(14:53):
was no longer with them. Patricia is the mother of
George's ex wife, Tabitha. Tabitha was bullied into relinquishing control
of her child with George by Angela Wagner. The situation
was eerily similar to the custody battle between Hanname Rodin
and Jake Wagner that was happening before the massacre. I
(15:15):
think the only reason that save taps Us from going
through this same thing was the fact that she didn't
fight for custody of honor. They had him already, so
cause him harm to Dabby with them done him any good.
Patricia claims Angela pulled all the strings within the Wagner
clan I know the demeanor of Angelis. She tries to
be the loving, cheering mother. But if you've seen the
(15:38):
side of Angelis that I've seen, and the way she
holds your demeanor around me, you could tell that she
was all fake. Dabby wasn't afraid of George, Danna wasn't
afraid of Jake. They were only afraid of Angelas Sammy
Joe saw firsthand how Angela exerted control over her. She
(16:01):
was just really intimidating. Normally growing up, I was always
with Jake, and then as I got older, the contact
changed from Jake to George because Jake became a struck up.
I'm trying to think of nice, not so hateful words,
(16:21):
but he became Angela. Angela took over Tabitha's life as well.
For two years, she lived with them and was not
allowed to have any contact with me once whoever, because
Angela didn't want her to. They even went as far
as taken tabtha cell phone from her because she was
texting me. Angela knows that Tabeth has always been close
(16:44):
to every one of her sisters, and every one of
them could have talked to her out it. Every one
of them could have talked Tabbie out of there, and
Angela knew that we're going to take a break. We'll
be back in a moment. Six years after the murderers,
(17:07):
Chris Nukeam still finds George's potential involvement in the piked
and massacre very hard to grasp. I mean, I'd have
trusted Georgia was my life and that's the guy's down
the streets on the matter. So how do you wrap
your head around that feeling like someone who you trust
your life with is allegedly being a part of something
where eight people are dad. So you ask me how
(17:28):
I deal with it? I guess yeah, I get up,
I do my Chorge, I'll do the work I gotta do.
I spend time with my family, and I go to bed.
I get up the next day and do it again.
I mean I fought for him. I would have never
in a million years believe they'd ever done anything like it,
And when it came out, I mean I just they
made me look like the biggest damn fool were ever
up there. I kid you not, I don't see him
(17:52):
doing anything of the sort like, but of course I
was not there. I don't know what happened. Sammy Joe
spent time with George after the murders. I asked him.
I was like, I can't believe this happened. But George
(18:13):
like shut me out, like he goes, how could we
do it? There's just something wrong, like he tully shut
me out, Like I knew sometime was wrong that day
when we were talking about it, like our Frision trip
was going good and it got wrong real fuck. We
spoke to a close friend of George's, who, after the
(18:34):
interview was done, decided it hit a little too close
to home and requested their voice not be used at all.
Here's Stephanie and Jeff recounting the conversation. This young woman,
who was very close with the Wagner family, recounted to
us that the morning of November twenty eighteen, the day
all of the Wagners were arrested, she had actually been
(18:56):
communicating with both George and Angela, and to her, the
conversations were rather mundane. They were talking about how their
days were going, what kind of errands they were running.
And we know that Jake and George were together at
the time of their arrests, and they were in their
truck running errands and that Angela Wagner was dropping her
(19:17):
grandkids off at school. They also talked about things like Thanksgiving,
which was coming up in a couple of weeks, and
within minutes on ending the conversations, this young woman saw
the news of the arrests, and after the shock of
the news, her first thoughts were, it had to have
been Billy and Jake. Angela and George must have been
(19:40):
covering for them. And again that doesn't make it a
matter of fact, but she was incredibly surprised and steadfast
that George and Angela must have been covering for Billy
and Jake. Yeah, it paints a picture of what that
day was like, which is very bizarre because you see
the news footage of Billy getting caught and the bodycam
(20:01):
footage minutes before that. They were just living their lives,
helping to get away with murder. Or they were just
expecting to go through the formality of being arrested, being booked,
being released on bail, and that this would all go away.
I think that's what they really believed at this point.
(20:21):
It doesn't explain why they came back though, So they
came back to care for Billy, Wagner's ailing father. But
they didn't really move back. They just came back and
we're staying in that small house that we ultimately saw recently.
But they weren't settled in. Were they just coming back
with the understanding that they were going to get arrested
and that would blow over really quickly and then they
(20:43):
could pick up life and go back to normal. According
to everyone who knew them, that seemed to be their
frame of mind. Court just wrapped up in Pike County.
Michelle was there as George Wagner the fourth made an appearance.
He's been covering the Pike County massacres since it happened
in twenty sixteen. This spring, George Wagner appeared in court
(21:05):
as part of his pre child hearings. He walked into
the courtroom unrestrained and dressed in civilian clothes. He's tall,
so he had to bow his head to hear the
hush direction of his lawyers before he's at for the hearing.
So like what happened in court today, Chris, this was
a revealing day here in the Pike County Courthouse. Captain
(21:26):
Seth Hegeman, now with the Westchester Police Department, was a
special agent with the Bureau of Criminal Investigations back in
twenty sixteen, and he was one of the lead investigators
on the Pike County murders. Now Hegeman spent about two
and a half hours on the stand testifying. Here's the
police captain's interpretation of a tattoo that George Wagner got
(21:50):
just a few months after the murders. Obviously, a skulls
often used to be associated with death immortality, and then
eight balls is sometimes thought it a symbol of chance.
But there also should be noted there were eight victims
in the Roden homicides, and then he had tattoos of
aces and eights that are commonly considered the dead man's
hand and represent death and murder. Here again is Stephanie
(22:15):
and Jeff. So let's break this down a bit. And
it's a bit confusing because we were not able to
obtain the entire hearing courtroom footage and instead have to
fall back on reporting. And different sources have said different
things about when George Wagner got this tattoo. Some news
sources have said it was before the murders and some
have said after, So it's not totally clear to us,
(22:37):
which is true. What we do know is that at
some point George Wagner got a tattoo of a dead
man's hand. And for those of you who are not
familiar with poker, a dead man's hand is composed of
eights and aces. It's called the dead man's hand because
it's rumored to be the hand of a man named
wild Bill Hickcock who was holding it when he was
(22:58):
shot in the back by arrival and because of that
the hand is now cursed forever. Which again we don't
know the link. But if we're going to analyze all
of the behavior of the Wagner's pre and post murder,
it certainly seems like it's possible that George Wagner knows
this folklore story and decided to get a tattoo because
(23:20):
he himself shot the Rodents. Much has been made online
about their various tattoos and Facebook postings, and yes, you
can read into them for sure. For example, it's speculated
that the eight ball connects the eight members of the
Rodent family. That's possible, it also could be a big stretch.
(23:45):
George Wagner's trial is tentatively set to begin two months
from now, based on a recent hearing, the prosecution's case
is pushing forward with the fundamental argument that the murders
were a family affair, with George being complicit in the crimes.
They functioned as one unit at all times. Like I said,
they worked together, they homeschooled together. This is demonstrated by factors,
(24:10):
including that limited two that are residing together in a varying,
insular manner in their entire lives, even while married as adults.
It establishes this conspiracy, It establishes the enterprise. The all
of this information goes together to show the they were
again that group think, the group action. Not one of
(24:32):
them turned back from these crimes. They all knew what
was going to happen that night. They all had their
own roles. The possible depths of George's allegiance to his
family was on full display. On April twenty eight, twenty sixteen,
on a warm day in South Shore, Kentucky. We received
(24:53):
a picture from a listener that was used in the
Cincinnati Enquirer, and while we can't be a hundred percent cer,
it appears to have Billy, George and Jake Wagner in it.
It was taken at the funeral of Gary Rowden. Also,
I think it's worth noting, Jeff that we actually were
tipped off to this photograph by a listener. We hadn't
(25:14):
seen it before, And when you look at it, it's
pretty staggering because it's all three Wagner accused men, and
you can't really see their expressions too too closely, but
you can just see they're clearly speaking to somebody, and
it just makes you wonder what could they possibly be
talking about, what could possibly be going on in their heads. Collectively,
(25:35):
they also have to look the people in the eye,
and the family members in the eye of the people
that they allegedly murdered. You know, everyone is there grieving.
The whole town is there grieving, and you know full
well that you're at the exact same place that you
caused all of that pain for everyone. Yeah. What's so
(25:58):
striking to me that is, if indeed these are the
Wagner men attending Gary Roden's funeral, just how performative the
whole thing must have been. They went there as this
grieving family supporting their friends and sort of in laws.
I mean, the Wagners and the Rodents were sort of
in laws to one another, and so to have to
go there and put on this show of a grieving
(26:19):
family is pretty hard to wrap your head around. Kind
of relevant here too. George Wagner's whole defense is that
he had nothing to do with this. Yet here we
see the family as they stand together at the funeral
of a man that was allegedly murdered by at least
(26:39):
some of them. So George was in the mix, and
we've heard some very checkered things about him, certainly how
he handled his own ex wife and the custody of
their child. But this season we also started to hear
things that are also quite different. That he was really
loving and kind, and that he could never pull this off.
(27:00):
And then you look at a picture like this, and
it does make you wonder. My sister always kept him
on a short lease. I mean she wouldn't let him
do anything, wouldn't let him get away from anybody, you know.
I mean that she just kept him on a short lease.
They had to stay there, had to take care of
the family. George wanted to leave. He wanted his own place,
but never got it. If you're raised your entire life
(27:23):
a certain way, it's hard to change. If you've had
something pounding like they was homeschooled all their life. I
think it was just the fact that he was, like
I said, had a pounding in his head that you
always have to take care of the family, always help
the family, whatever they do. You got to be a
part of the help or whatever. And I think it
(27:44):
just pounded in his head so much that he started
believing it because I know that he was raised up
to always take care of Jake always, no matter what,
he has to protect Jack. Don't matter if Jake does
wrong to somebody else and they want to pay back
on it, don't matter. You've got to take care of
your brother. And so what Angela is like this Hannah
a girl in his trouble, she's trying to take away
Jake's daughter. What's he gonna do protect his brother? Yeah,
(28:07):
that's the way he was raised up. After Jake confessed
it or whatever he did, he I just said, Hey,
I ain't got metham for him anymore. I defended him
tooth and nail to everybody that had anything bad to
say about him. I defended because I had thought to
myself there said, there's no way my family could have
had anything doing this. I said, I've known George and Jake.
You know all their life. I said, there's no way
(28:29):
possible that they could have done this. I've always been
so curious to know more about life behind bars. For
the individual Wagner family members, we know that they've been
separated and haven't seen each other since their arrests. We've
been in contact with one of Angela Wagner's cell mates.
(28:49):
We know that George Wagner requested solitary confinement in the Bible,
and that he was originally in Ross County Jail but
is currently in the Montgomery County Jail in Ohio. And
that's for angel and Billy Wagner. They have both been
in the same jails since they were arrested. Billy is
in Hamilton, Ohio, and Angela Wagner is in Delaware County.
The youngest Wagner's son, Jake, is currently being held in
(29:12):
the Franklin County Jail in Columbus, Ohio. And all of
these jails aren't about one hundred and seventy five mile
radius of each other. In a little under three hours,
but for a family who will probably never see each
other again except for when they're testifying against each other
in court, those three hours probably feel like a lifetime
(29:35):
and stuff. You know a little bit more about Jake's
time in jail, right. Somebody who has access to Jake
Wagner on a daily basis came and saw us at
a work event and said that Jake is very busy
working on a manifesto. So whether that's something he's putting
(29:55):
together as a book or as a final statement, don't know.
You hear the term manifesto a lot when it comes
to shooters. Often people who go and shoot public places
write these manifestos prior to their murders. I hate to
say this out loud, but what a shake up that
would be to the remaining trials. Let's stop here for
(30:18):
another break. George's ties to his family will be put
to the test at this trial. In light of Jake's
admission of guilt and Angela's plea, the eldest son of
the Wagner clan is in a tight spot. Was George's
(30:38):
a legend involvement in the murders as a passive participant
or could he be a cold blooded killer? Here again,
Sammy Joe, the family for the Romans cannot have closure
until they know the truth. They'll never know the truth.
If we keep doing a pre trial trial, we're going
to move it, so on, so forth. The way I feel,
(31:02):
if you have all the evidence to say you have
move on, move on so people can have closure and
move on with their life. But again they're just going
to drag their feet and eventually the truth will come
out and then the people that's the way it's so
long to find the truth is no longer going to
be here, and then they never had closure in our life.
(31:25):
More on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes
and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy and Love.
New episodes there every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.
For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram
(31:45):
at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced
by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston.
The Piked and Massacre is a production of Kati Studios
and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
(32:09):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
George was pretty much my brother. I mean, if I
was ever going to have anybody I considered brother, it
would have been him. How would you describe him? Hard working,
down to hers boy, do anything in the world for anybody.
If I was broke down three states over at two
o'clock in the morning, I could call him. He's about
the only one that I miss is George Trump. I'm sorry.
(00:24):
So how did George get wrapped up into this? Well,
since they was young, they was beat into his head
that he always had to take care of his little brother,
no matter what. Can't let nobody heard his little brother
always had to take his little brother's side, no matter what.
And I think I'd had something to do with it.
(00:46):
This is the Piketon Massacre. Returned to Pike County season three,
episode five, One Eyed Wolf. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television
producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Ledeger and Jeff Shane.
George Wagner is a waiting trial in Pike County for
his involvement in the murders of the Roden family. He's
(01:08):
pleaded not guilty after two seasons of reporting details of
what allegedly went down on the night of April twenty first,
twenty sixteen have slowly come into focus, but we still
know little about the eldest son of the Wagner clan,
George Wagner. In this episode, we talked to the people
who knew George the best and delve into why many
(01:29):
are still trying to comprehend his potential involvement in the
piked of Nassacre. In May of twenty seventeen, thirteen months
after the murders, investigators sent a swat team to the
Wagner's property to search for evidence. Around that time, George
changed his social media profile picture and an online group
picked it up immediately, screenshot at it and posted it.
(01:53):
Here's an anonymous Wagner and Roden family source. It's crazy.
I don't know what all is out. It's not out.
But when all this went down, he had posted what
is it called your profile picture of a wolf that
had a chart in one eye. And if you get
on there and read that Angela is on there and
tell him he needs to delete it, you know you
(02:15):
shouldn't be doing that. And then everybody in this group
that I'm in was like, oh, that's like pointing to
him having shot Kenny, and Angela commented on it really
questioned you Mark. Everybody in his Facebook group was like,
oh my gosh, he's the one who shot Kenny. Kenneth Roden,
brother of patriarch Chris Roden Senior, was the eighth and
(02:37):
final victim to be discovered. This was five hours after
Bobby Joe Manley discovered the first bodies and called nine
one one, I need it's been about to close to
seven nine nine. Okay. This is family member Donald Stone
calling from Kenneth's home, seven miles away from the other
(02:58):
crime scenes all this stuff. It's going to news. I
just found just found Martezans was again shot and I
don't know what his address is. Hanting out of the house.
I'm out of the house right now. Is just winning
or nighting Stone found Kenneth lying in his bed, face up,
covered in blood. He had dollar bills strewn over the
(03:21):
lower half of his body. He was the only victim
killed with a single gunshot wound to the head, specifically
through his right eye. This is like the picture of
the wolf and George's profile that piqued people's interest online.
Here's Stephanie and Jeff. It came to our attention that
in October of twenty eighteen, about a month before the
(03:44):
Wagners were arrested, George Wagner changed his profile picture to
a cartoon wolf that has a scar over its right eye,
and on that picture, his mother, Angela Wagner, commented, really,
we can only assume this picture represents Kenneth Roden, who
was shot in the right eye, and that George Wagner
(04:06):
was somehow bragging or making a callback to the way
Kenneth Rodan was murdered. We do also know that Kenneth
Roden was really the only victim who was shot just
once in their right eye, and the significance of that
(04:28):
might be tied to this photo. It feels like a
stretch a little bit, to be honest. So he posted
this on October fourth, twenty eighteen, and a few weeks
prior to that, on September nineteenth, twenty eighteen, is when
the autopsy notes were released and everyone found out that
Kenneth was shot in the right eye. And so it
(04:49):
seems like a bit of a coincidence that we as
the public, find out that Kenneth Roden was shot in
the right eye, and then George Wagner posts this photo
of a wolf scar over its right eye, and that
maybe wouldn't be connected. But then if it wasn't, why
would Angela make that comment? Because if it's just a
(05:10):
picture of a wolf, like, what does his mom care
what he posts on Facebook? And it doesn't have this
kind of deeper meaning. So much has been made about
this online and in various different Facebook groups. It could
really just be a complete coincidence. It could, but we
can only assume what the Wagners did. I think it's
fair to scrutinize all of their behavior prior to the
(05:33):
arrests and following the murders. What would be the significance
of that. Either he's bragging or is he giving a
signal to someone else? What is the connective tissue there?
The way I read into it is that he's bragging
about the murders. Why would he do that? We do
(05:53):
know they get arrested one month later. Many people in
the area were saying that the Wagoners were expecting to
be arrested at any moment, And it really does make
you wonder why they were so busy on social media
in the first place. If you feared that you were
going to be arrested, why would you possibly go on
(06:13):
social media? Period. The way it was presented to me
was that it was more of a matter of fact
that the police think we're tied up in this, we're
going to get arrested, but we're going to get out
because we're innocent. It's just a formality. And so the
way I think, at least they were portraying themselves to
(06:35):
their friends and family was that they were very confident
about their innocence and all of this, and that they
would not be roped into it too much. Jake was
the one that literally said he shot five people or
killed five people in shot six and I don't know,
(06:58):
I mean, who was the other person? Well anything, I
think Billy, you know, would have been the crazy one
to do something, because Billy has always come up with
these crazy schemes. Billy I would not put past to
do anything. I feel like he would be at a
gas station and shoot somebody. I probably George would throw
up if he shot somebody, but I don't know. I
(07:20):
don't know. Last season, it seems like the only thing
we heard about George Wagner was that he was an
abusive husband and all around a pretty bad guy. But
as the court proceedings have kind of continued, we've talked
to more and more people who were close with George
Wagner and have kind of told us the opposite of
(07:41):
what we've always heard. Everyone we've spoken to as of
late has said nothing but nice things about him, basically
that he was this great guy and they are shocked
that he was involved in this murder. No one seems
to have a hard time imagining that Billy, Jake, or
even Angela could have planned, murdered and covered up crime.
But people have a really hard time wrapping their head
(08:03):
around George Wagner being involved, which is surprising to me
because we did hear about how terribly he treated his
wife when they all lived with his mother, Angela Wagner,
and the whole accused family mistreated her. This season, yeah,
we've heard quite the opposite. All we really have so
(08:24):
far is Jake's plea deal, where he has testified that
that George was only their last minute and really was
only there to protect Jake from their father, which you know,
we're still trying to unpack what that actually means. So
let's play that out really quickly. Just this scenario, as
we maybe know it right now, according to all of
(08:44):
these plea agreements, Jake, who has admitted to five killings,
and Dad Billy Wagner they were the ones that were
going to go out and do all of the killings.
So that's five that Jake was going to do or
has admitted to, leaving the remaining three maybe done by Billy.
(09:05):
Yet at the very last minute, George, the oldest brother,
to protect his younger brother, decides to go along with them,
even though he's been a part of the planning, he
wasn't intending ongoing And now, according to Angela Wagner, she
stayed behind to babysit. So now George tags along. What
does that mean? Is he equally responsible? Is he not
(09:28):
responsible at all? He was a part of all the planning,
so maybe he wasn't one of the trigger pullers. But
it also speaks to the larger question of why would
George Wagner think their father was going to kill or
harm Jake Wagner. It's certainly a good question, and I
(09:49):
wonder if George's defense will bring that up, because I
think in the eyes of the law, if you plan
a murder and you're at the murder, you're pretty culpable
in the crime, and so whether you're there to protect
someone else or not, we'll see if that matters and
how much that will play out in his upcoming trial.
If we're just going to play along with this version
(10:10):
of a tale, if George Wagner was just tagging along
to protect Jake Wagner from their father, Billy Wagner, go
with me here for one quick second, that would imply
that Billy Wagner dad was allegedly going to kill or
harm Jake Wagner. Why would he do that? Like, why
would George have to protect Jake from their dad? And
(10:33):
I guess the only thing that would sort of make
sense is because maybe Billy Wagner was going to kill
Jake Wagner just so there was nobody left to tournament. Yeah,
there would have been one less witness. And as we
know the kind of how the dynamics of the family were,
(10:53):
Jake and Angela Wagner were very close, and Billy and
George Wagner were very close. So perhaps George felt that
if he went he could maybe talk some sense for
lack of a better term, into his dad and protect
Jake at the same time. It's certainly complicated. It's important
to note that both George and Billy Wagner have pleaded
(11:14):
not guilty on all counts and have not yet had
their day in court. So everything we're talking about is
just Jake and Angela Wagner's version of events. Otherwise the
prosecution would not allow their version of events to be, frankly,
the foundation of their upcoming trials. Yeah, certainly the prosecution
believes Jake and Angela's version of how things went down
(11:34):
that night. But it's just important to note that Billy
and George are disputing all this, and it's not just
us stuff who are trying to unpack this. The people
who were close with the Wagner family are still kind
of wrapping their head around all of this, particularly Chris Newcome, who,
(11:55):
as we know as Angela Wagner's half brother, was very
close with George and in talking to him numerous times.
He's still really grappling with this whole situation and still
trying to come to terms with George Wagner's possible involvement.
And it's been six years since this whole thing happened.
Chris was born when his older half sister, Angela was
twenty the age gap kept the two from growing close,
(12:18):
but Chris was drawn to her boys, specifically to George.
I mean, help me in my nephews. We grew up
more like brothers than we did in huncle and nephews.
I'm two and a half years older than Jake, in
a year and a half older than George. I was
always closer to George than I was with Jake. Man George,
we'd always go hunting, fishing, camping. He always wanted to
have his own hunting show. Do you know you wanted
(12:39):
to go on TV Hunti's monster deer and turkey and
elk and stuff like it. I mean he loved hunting
that much. Sammy Joe spoke with us earlier in the
season about both the Rodin and Wagner families. She dated
Frankie Rodin from seventh to ninth grade and was involved
with Jake Wagner at times, but she also had a
(13:02):
crush on George. I probably shouldn't say this, but Jake
we pretty much stopped talking because I think Angela thought
I was trying to get Jake to break up with Hannah,
and that's not what it was. Because I didn't want Jake.
I wanted George. What did you like A bad George?
Just his goofiness. Honestly, George, he's a big teddy bear. Really.
(13:27):
I remember a time I got a hold of George
and I told him I was like, I can't afford Christmas.
I don't know what to do. And he goes meet
me at the gas station. He gave me money to
pay my electric bill and bought my daughter present. Wow,
so he was like your Santa Claus. Yeah, Like you
broke my heart when I found out he was married
the first time. And did you ever confess to George
(13:48):
that you kind of liked him? Nope, Now he'll never know.
He was just a nice guy, good to be around,
you know, didn't really talk too much, but he was
definitely a nice person. Howard grew up with the Wagners
and lived near them in both Ohio and Alaska. I
just remember my sister. I'll keep her name out of him,
(14:09):
but she kind of had a crush on George and
she would always talking to him on Facebook and things
like that. It's very funny because you're the second person
today who has made mention of a family member, specifically
his sister who kind of loved George. From a distance
and still have the nicest, kindest things to say of him.
If I had a daughter and he were hurried, that's
(14:30):
who I would want my daughter nating. He was just
a great guy. He was super nice, like very friendly.
Jake cab the other hair was kind of secluded, kind
of recluse, but George was just nice, like all around
a nice guy. We've been able to speak with a
whole host of new family members and friends this season. Patricia,
you may recall, is one of them. I think God
(14:53):
was no longer with them. Patricia is the mother of
George's ex wife, Tabitha. Tabitha was bullied into relinquishing control
of her child with George by Angela Wagner. The situation
was eerily similar to the custody battle between Hanname Rodin
and Jake Wagner that was happening before the massacre. I
(15:15):
think the only reason that save taps Us from going
through this same thing was the fact that she didn't
fight for custody of honor. They had him already, so
cause him harm to Dabby with them done him any good.
Patricia claims Angela pulled all the strings within the Wagner
clan I know the demeanor of Angelis. She tries to
be the loving, cheering mother. But if you've seen the
(15:38):
side of Angelis that I've seen, and the way she
holds your demeanor around me, you could tell that she
was all fake. Dabby wasn't afraid of George, Danna wasn't
afraid of Jake. They were only afraid of Angelas Sammy
Joe saw firsthand how Angela exerted control over her. She
(16:01):
was just really intimidating. Normally growing up, I was always
with Jake, and then as I got older, the contact
changed from Jake to George because Jake became a struck up.
I'm trying to think of nice, not so hateful words,
(16:21):
but he became Angela. Angela took over Tabitha's life as well.
For two years, she lived with them and was not
allowed to have any contact with me once whoever, because
Angela didn't want her to. They even went as far
as taken tabtha cell phone from her because she was
texting me. Angela knows that Tabeth has always been close
(16:44):
to every one of her sisters, and every one of
them could have talked to her out it. Every one
of them could have talked Tabbie out of there, and
Angela knew that we're going to take a break. We'll
be back in a moment. Six years after the murderers,
(17:07):
Chris Nukeam still finds George's potential involvement in the piked
and massacre very hard to grasp. I mean, I'd have
trusted Georgia was my life and that's the guy's down
the streets on the matter. So how do you wrap
your head around that feeling like someone who you trust
your life with is allegedly being a part of something
where eight people are dad. So you ask me how
(17:28):
I deal with it? I guess yeah, I get up,
I do my Chorge, I'll do the work I gotta do.
I spend time with my family, and I go to bed.
I get up the next day and do it again.
I mean I fought for him. I would have never
in a million years believe they'd ever done anything like it,
And when it came out, I mean I just they
made me look like the biggest damn fool were ever
up there. I kid you not, I don't see him
(17:52):
doing anything of the sort like, but of course I
was not there. I don't know what happened. Sammy Joe
spent time with George after the murders. I asked him.
I was like, I can't believe this happened. But George
(18:13):
like shut me out, like he goes, how could we
do it? There's just something wrong, like he tully shut
me out, Like I knew sometime was wrong that day
when we were talking about it, like our Frision trip
was going good and it got wrong real fuck. We
spoke to a close friend of George's, who, after the
(18:34):
interview was done, decided it hit a little too close
to home and requested their voice not be used at all.
Here's Stephanie and Jeff recounting the conversation. This young woman,
who was very close with the Wagner family, recounted to
us that the morning of November twenty eighteen, the day
all of the Wagners were arrested, she had actually been
(18:56):
communicating with both George and Angela, and to her, the
conversations were rather mundane. They were talking about how their
days were going, what kind of errands they were running.
And we know that Jake and George were together at
the time of their arrests, and they were in their
truck running errands and that Angela Wagner was dropping her
(19:17):
grandkids off at school. They also talked about things like Thanksgiving,
which was coming up in a couple of weeks, and
within minutes on ending the conversations, this young woman saw
the news of the arrests, and after the shock of
the news, her first thoughts were, it had to have
been Billy and Jake. Angela and George must have been
(19:40):
covering for them. And again that doesn't make it a
matter of fact, but she was incredibly surprised and steadfast
that George and Angela must have been covering for Billy
and Jake. Yeah, it paints a picture of what that
day was like, which is very bizarre because you see
the news footage of Billy getting caught and the bodycam
(20:01):
footage minutes before that. They were just living their lives,
helping to get away with murder. Or they were just
expecting to go through the formality of being arrested, being booked,
being released on bail, and that this would all go away.
I think that's what they really believed at this point.
(20:21):
It doesn't explain why they came back though, So they
came back to care for Billy, Wagner's ailing father. But
they didn't really move back. They just came back and
we're staying in that small house that we ultimately saw recently.
But they weren't settled in. Were they just coming back
with the understanding that they were going to get arrested
and that would blow over really quickly and then they
(20:43):
could pick up life and go back to normal. According
to everyone who knew them, that seemed to be their
frame of mind. Court just wrapped up in Pike County.
Michelle was there as George Wagner the fourth made an appearance.
He's been covering the Pike County massacres since it happened
in twenty sixteen. This spring, George Wagner appeared in court
(21:05):
as part of his pre child hearings. He walked into
the courtroom unrestrained and dressed in civilian clothes. He's tall,
so he had to bow his head to hear the
hush direction of his lawyers before he's at for the hearing.
So like what happened in court today, Chris, this was
a revealing day here in the Pike County Courthouse. Captain
(21:26):
Seth Hegeman, now with the Westchester Police Department, was a
special agent with the Bureau of Criminal Investigations back in
twenty sixteen, and he was one of the lead investigators
on the Pike County murders. Now Hegeman spent about two
and a half hours on the stand testifying. Here's the
police captain's interpretation of a tattoo that George Wagner got
(21:50):
just a few months after the murders. Obviously, a skulls
often used to be associated with death immortality, and then
eight balls is sometimes thought it a symbol of chance.
But there also should be noted there were eight victims
in the Roden homicides, and then he had tattoos of
aces and eights that are commonly considered the dead man's
hand and represent death and murder. Here again is Stephanie
(22:15):
and Jeff. So let's break this down a bit. And
it's a bit confusing because we were not able to
obtain the entire hearing courtroom footage and instead have to
fall back on reporting. And different sources have said different
things about when George Wagner got this tattoo. Some news
sources have said it was before the murders and some
have said after, So it's not totally clear to us,
(22:37):
which is true. What we do know is that at
some point George Wagner got a tattoo of a dead
man's hand. And for those of you who are not
familiar with poker, a dead man's hand is composed of
eights and aces. It's called the dead man's hand because
it's rumored to be the hand of a man named
wild Bill Hickcock who was holding it when he was
(22:58):
shot in the back by arrival and because of that
the hand is now cursed forever. Which again we don't
know the link. But if we're going to analyze all
of the behavior of the Wagner's pre and post murder,
it certainly seems like it's possible that George Wagner knows
this folklore story and decided to get a tattoo because
(23:20):
he himself shot the Rodents. Much has been made online
about their various tattoos and Facebook postings, and yes, you
can read into them for sure. For example, it's speculated
that the eight ball connects the eight members of the
Rodent family. That's possible, it also could be a big stretch.
(23:45):
George Wagner's trial is tentatively set to begin two months
from now, based on a recent hearing, the prosecution's case
is pushing forward with the fundamental argument that the murders
were a family affair, with George being complicit in the crimes.
They functioned as one unit at all times. Like I said,
they worked together, they homeschooled together. This is demonstrated by factors,
(24:10):
including that limited two that are residing together in a varying,
insular manner in their entire lives, even while married as adults.
It establishes this conspiracy, It establishes the enterprise. The all
of this information goes together to show the they were
again that group think, the group action. Not one of
(24:32):
them turned back from these crimes. They all knew what
was going to happen that night. They all had their
own roles. The possible depths of George's allegiance to his
family was on full display. On April twenty eight, twenty sixteen,
on a warm day in South Shore, Kentucky. We received
(24:53):
a picture from a listener that was used in the
Cincinnati Enquirer, and while we can't be a hundred percent cer,
it appears to have Billy, George and Jake Wagner in it.
It was taken at the funeral of Gary Rowden. Also,
I think it's worth noting, Jeff that we actually were
tipped off to this photograph by a listener. We hadn't
(25:14):
seen it before, And when you look at it, it's
pretty staggering because it's all three Wagner accused men, and
you can't really see their expressions too too closely, but
you can just see they're clearly speaking to somebody, and
it just makes you wonder what could they possibly be
talking about, what could possibly be going on in their heads. Collectively,
(25:35):
they also have to look the people in the eye,
and the family members in the eye of the people
that they allegedly murdered. You know, everyone is there grieving.
The whole town is there grieving, and you know full
well that you're at the exact same place that you
caused all of that pain for everyone. Yeah. What's so
(25:58):
striking to me that is, if indeed these are the
Wagner men attending Gary Roden's funeral, just how performative the
whole thing must have been. They went there as this
grieving family supporting their friends and sort of in laws.
I mean, the Wagners and the Rodents were sort of
in laws to one another, and so to have to
go there and put on this show of a grieving
(26:19):
family is pretty hard to wrap your head around. Kind
of relevant here too. George Wagner's whole defense is that
he had nothing to do with this. Yet here we
see the family as they stand together at the funeral
of a man that was allegedly murdered by at least
(26:39):
some of them. So George was in the mix, and
we've heard some very checkered things about him, certainly how
he handled his own ex wife and the custody of
their child. But this season we also started to hear
things that are also quite different. That he was really
loving and kind, and that he could never pull this off.
(27:00):
And then you look at a picture like this, and
it does make you wonder. My sister always kept him
on a short lease. I mean she wouldn't let him
do anything, wouldn't let him get away from anybody, you know.
I mean that she just kept him on a short lease.
They had to stay there, had to take care of
the family. George wanted to leave. He wanted his own place,
but never got it. If you're raised your entire life
(27:23):
a certain way, it's hard to change. If you've had
something pounding like they was homeschooled all their life. I
think it was just the fact that he was, like
I said, had a pounding in his head that you
always have to take care of the family, always help
the family, whatever they do. You got to be a
part of the help or whatever. And I think it
(27:44):
just pounded in his head so much that he started
believing it because I know that he was raised up
to always take care of Jake always, no matter what,
he has to protect Jack. Don't matter if Jake does
wrong to somebody else and they want to pay back
on it, don't matter. You've got to take care of
your brother. And so what Angela is like this Hannah
a girl in his trouble, she's trying to take away
Jake's daughter. What's he gonna do protect his brother? Yeah,
(28:07):
that's the way he was raised up. After Jake confessed
it or whatever he did, he I just said, Hey,
I ain't got metham for him anymore. I defended him
tooth and nail to everybody that had anything bad to
say about him. I defended because I had thought to
myself there said, there's no way my family could have
had anything doing this. I said, I've known George and Jake.
You know all their life. I said, there's no way
(28:29):
possible that they could have done this. I've always been
so curious to know more about life behind bars. For
the individual Wagner family members, we know that they've been
separated and haven't seen each other since their arrests. We've
been in contact with one of Angela Wagner's cell mates.
(28:49):
We know that George Wagner requested solitary confinement in the Bible,
and that he was originally in Ross County Jail but
is currently in the Montgomery County Jail in Ohio. And
that's for angel and Billy Wagner. They have both been
in the same jails since they were arrested. Billy is
in Hamilton, Ohio, and Angela Wagner is in Delaware County.
The youngest Wagner's son, Jake, is currently being held in
(29:12):
the Franklin County Jail in Columbus, Ohio. And all of
these jails aren't about one hundred and seventy five mile
radius of each other. In a little under three hours,
but for a family who will probably never see each
other again except for when they're testifying against each other
in court, those three hours probably feel like a lifetime
(29:35):
and stuff. You know a little bit more about Jake's
time in jail, right. Somebody who has access to Jake
Wagner on a daily basis came and saw us at
a work event and said that Jake is very busy
working on a manifesto. So whether that's something he's putting
(29:55):
together as a book or as a final statement, don't know.
You hear the term manifesto a lot when it comes
to shooters. Often people who go and shoot public places
write these manifestos prior to their murders. I hate to
say this out loud, but what a shake up that
would be to the remaining trials. Let's stop here for
(30:18):
another break. George's ties to his family will be put
to the test at this trial. In light of Jake's
admission of guilt and Angela's plea, the eldest son of
the Wagner clan is in a tight spot. Was George's
(30:38):
a legend involvement in the murders as a passive participant
or could he be a cold blooded killer? Here again,
Sammy Joe, the family for the Romans cannot have closure
until they know the truth. They'll never know the truth.
If we keep doing a pre trial trial, we're going
to move it, so on, so forth. The way I feel,
(31:02):
if you have all the evidence to say you have
move on, move on so people can have closure and
move on with their life. But again they're just going
to drag their feet and eventually the truth will come
out and then the people that's the way it's so
long to find the truth is no longer going to
be here, and then they never had closure in our life.
(31:25):
More on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes
and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy and Love.
New episodes there every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.
For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram
(31:45):
at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced
by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston.
The Piked and Massacre is a production of Kati Studios
and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
(32:09):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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