June 8, 2022 • 30 mins
There are two other members of the Wagner family that haven’t received as much attention but play integral parts in the complex case. This week we explore the Wagner patriarch and the woman Jake Wagner married while in Alaska. Could uncovering truths about both of them lead us closer to what really happened?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I've been receiving a lot of questions lately since God
told me to put my account public. I had been hiding,
specifically from all of the issues that were surrounding my
life in Ohio. And the most common question that keep
being asked is did you know Jake Wagner was a
murderer before you married him? This is The Piped and Massacre,
(00:31):
a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode three.
The Alaska Wife and the Father figure Courtney Armstrong, a
television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Laidecker and Jeff Shane.
Elizabeth Wagner, whose voice we just heard taken from one
(00:53):
of her public social media posts, has been something of
an elusive figure in this case. After the massacre, we
know the Wagner family liquidated all their assets and moved
from Pike County to Alaska to start a new life.
For two years, father Billy Wagner, mother Angela Wagner, eldest
son George, and youngest son Jake, along with the daughter
(01:17):
he shared with victim, Hanname Rodin, lived a quiet and
unremarkable life. They attended a local church regularly, and it
was through the church that admitted murderer youngest son, Jake Wagner,
met his soon to be young wife, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, often
referred to as Beth, as a wide eyed, slim woman
(01:38):
in her twenties with light blonde hair and blue eyes.
She paints and was a Sunday school teacher. Elizabeth would
become the third young woman to step into the Wagner's web.
Here Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa speaking recently to Judge Deering
and the Defense about the significance of Elizabeth Wagner and
(01:59):
her whereabouts. It appears she's been in hiding. Judge, we
would like to interview Beth, who is Jake's ex wife,
and we've not been provided her address. She's a key
States witness, we believe, and we have tried to locate her.
(02:19):
The State says people are in danger, but they have
not filed anything to preserve or present that issue. Elizabeth
Wagner basically fled for her life when she left to
Wagner home. I personally wrote a letter to the Social
Security Administration to her social Security number changed so that
she could change her identity and not the aggress of
(02:39):
potential harm. Understandably so the homicides had been committed by then,
and she was very much afraid for her life. So
that is the reason. It is because of potential danger
to this witness. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Elizabeth serves as
a very big piece to this puzzle. She's appeared on
(03:00):
several lists as a potential witness. It also speaks to
the fact that there is a pattern here. We were
able to track on Elizabeth on social media, and because
she's made her post public, were able to play you
some clips from those. The most common questions I keep
being asked is did you know Jake Wagner was a
(03:21):
murderer before you married him? And the answer is not really.
Because he came to our church in Alaska, which was
pastored by Caleb Cinerewski at the time, who was a
very young preacher. He had vouched for the Wagner family
and told the congregation that it was his understanding that
(03:43):
they had been troubled by news reporters, but that it
had been a slander and that the things were not true.
So that being the case, I was not exactly set up,
but in a way horridged to believe that Jake Wagner
was innocent, So I got to know him. I spent
(04:07):
a fair amount of time with him and his family,
saw him every week at church for several months, spend
a fair amount of time with his daughter, and it
just came to be that he and his family needed
to move south from Alaska back to the Lower forty eight.
I did not know the reasons for this at the time.
(04:29):
In retrospect, I have some personal opinions as to why
that may have been, But the main thing I just
wanted to communicate to people is that no, I was
not aware that Jake Wagner was involved so intimately with
these horrible, horrible killings, and that if I had known,
(04:50):
there's no way in a million years that I ever
would have married him. I was very, very, very upset
after all of these things went south so quickly. I mean,
I'd only just got married and then I find out
that my husband is not only not who I thought
he was, but literally a person's worst nightmare. So I
(05:15):
had to move three times since then, and I am
not allowed to speak publicly or in private about the
murders or I would face personal consequences from the legal
system of Ohio. This was a woman who was by
all accounts, fearing for her life. Can you imagine being
(05:36):
a young girl living in Alaska you meet a guy
through your pastor marry into the family who you now
know to be a family of killers. There was one
thing that always struck us, and we weren't really able
to talk about it too deeply in season two, is
that on August fifteenth, twenty eighteen, three months before the
Wagner family was in fact arrested, Elizabeth went to the
(06:00):
Lace and Pike County and filed a report of threats
and harassment and that her address at that time was homeless.
So that just offers a little insight into the life
that Elizabeth was living. Special Prosecutor Angie Caneppo was recently
in court detailing the horrific situation Elizabeth Wagner was in
(06:23):
when she lived with her husband, murderer Jake Wagner, Jake's
brother George, and their parents, Angela and Billie. It's a
story that might sound chillingly familiar given what we now
know about the Wagner's mistreatment of George's ex wife and victim,
Hanname Rodin, Jake's ex girlfriend. In regards to Elizabeth Wagner,
(06:46):
she ultimately knew in Bastill, Ohio with them and lived
with the defendant and his entire family. Again, they'll see
this same thing happening over and over again, defending his family,
controlling every movement of the list at Wagner, including anat
limited to demanding all of her personal identifying information, her passwords,
et cetera, and downloading tracking applications on the police one
(07:09):
of her devices, specifically her phone, so when she would
leave the residents to go to library to apply for
a job. And this all this information we have on
the wire conversation between George and Jay on the night
of their wedding, Jake asked for all of her identifying information,
including passwords to any emails, social media, etc. I would
(07:32):
note that was before they consummated their marriage, So that
is how pervasive this amount of control is. There's a
few important things to note in what Angie Kneppa just
laid out. The first is how Elizabeth is the third
woman who entered the inner circle of the Wagner family
(07:52):
to end up under their complete control and running for
her life. The second is a reference Kneppa makes to
the courted wire conversations. The prosecution is obtained between George
and Jake Wagner. It begs the question of what else
will be revealed in soon approaching court proceedings. The accusations
(08:15):
of Elizabeth again, they accused her of being mildly physically
abusive with the child and accused her of poisoning them
with food. And basically it was when miss Wagner accused
her of poisoning them with food that is when the
alarms went off in her head because she was privy
to conversations that they were having about how Tabitha had
(08:38):
done that. As a reminder, Tabitha is George Wagner's ex
wife who lived with the family before they took custody
of her son away. You know, she was led to
leave that Tabitha was this terrible accusan. But when she
started being accused of things that they had told her
they accused Tabitha of, she became very concerned for her
well being. Jake and Angela Wagner confronted her in the kitchen.
(09:01):
This was the kitchen is the source of family meetings
typically amongst the Wagners, and they confronted her because Angela
had reported to Jake that the child in question had
claimed used by Beth Wagner, and Beth adamantly denied this,
And I would note the record that the child never
(09:22):
repeated that to anybody else, including Jake. But Jade didn't
tell miss Wagner that if he ever learned that she
hadn't in fact abused this child, that he would beat
her with a bat, and that if he didn't do it,
then his brother George Wood, and if his brother George didn't,
then Billy Wood, and that would be the right thing
(09:43):
to do. You want to talk about gas lighting in
a situation. So Elizabeth, living now with the Wagners, is
hearing accusations from the Wagners about previous women, about them
being bad and that they were poisoning the children. Now
(10:04):
with her, they create these allegations saying that Elizabeth is
poisoning the children. They're creating these stories and rumors amongst
each other and then threatening her. If it's true me,
Jake Wagner, your husband is going to beat you with
a bat. And if not me, my older brother George,
he's going to beat you with a bat. Oh wait,
(10:24):
if not him, my dad, Billy Wagner is going to
beat you with a bat over a rumor that they're
starting within their own little weird bubble. I mean, we're
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(10:48):
These alleged threats against Elizabeth Wagner did not only extend
to her, but to her family as well. Tabitha, George
Wagner's ex wife and mother of his child, cut ties
with the Wagners. She ran in the night from their property,
afraid for her life. We sadly know what happened to
Hannah may Roden. Finally, Jake's now ex wife, Elizabeth was
(11:12):
caught living the same nightmare. While Elizabeth was only with
Jake Wagner for a short time, she met several relatives
and friends in the Wagner's in a circle. Here's Jeff
speaking with an anonymous Wagner friend and Angela's half brother, Chris.
What do you make of Elizabeth? She's a little bit
out there. I think she was indullible. I don't know.
(11:33):
She was easy for Jake to target, I think. And
what about in Alaska Jake's wife, Elizabeth? Did you ever
hear of her or meet her or talk to her?
That girl was weird, just strange. Did she come back
to Ohio with them from Alaska. Yeah, do you know
what happened to that relationship? Oh Ny split up. I
don't know exactly why. This is our anonymous Wagner source
(11:57):
on what she thought about Elizabeth, specifically how living with
the entire Wagner family might have impacted her. Did you
know Elizabeth Jake's wife. I didn't know her super well.
I met her, I think three times, and she was
a little odd. If you ever watch her things she
has on like what's that thing called TikTok? Stuff that
(12:19):
she said on there and by all means like said
I was against it, saying that they didn't kill no
one and then supposed me they didn't like Angela was
a bit you know, and told her what to do
and you know, stuff like I Yes, I definitely think
Angela would rule stuff like that with her, especially living
under her house, especially with the kids. And I definitely
think whenever Elizabeth started saying that Sudds was calling her
(12:42):
mom and stuff like that, I think Angela is the
one that took that way to heart. She didn't like that. No.
SuDS is the nickname those close to the child used
for Angela's granddaughter. Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden's daughter. Angela
obviously was a grandma, But I think she played it
off more if that she wanted people to think that
(13:03):
sudden was her kids. Also, if you ever was around them,
that's just the way it put off. And what was
your first impression of Elizabeth The first time we met her,
she was like happy, go lucky and talked and played
with the kids and everything seemed cool. And then the
next time it was like she was just set in
the truck and they was here for like three or
four hours working on trucks, and she just sent in
(13:25):
the truck the whole time and didn't want to talk
to nobody. It was like she didn't want to be here,
you know, she didn't want to be in Ohio. You know,
she would have rather not came down here. And then
when she did, she knew she made the mistake of
coming here. I don't know why or what. Besides, like
I said, I think Angela rolled her like one of
her kids, you know, That's what I think it was.
(13:47):
I think it was more Angela on her than Jake
would have been anything like that. Jeff recently spoke with Wendy,
an old family friend of the web Wagner's about being
invited to Jake and Elizabeth's wedding. According to Wendy, before
his arrest, Killer's son Jake Wagner was out and about
(14:08):
in public, seemingly unbothered. They have this little place called
the Nail Chick here, and they did this little cute
fair that had animals and pig races and just a
few small rides and stuff, and we just kind of
all ran into each other and sat down and started
talking about how everybody was, how everybody's been, because we
haven't seen each other really since we were kids. Wow.
(14:29):
And so you're up in Alaska. Yes, Like we all
just kind of like sit back and think, like it's
kind of weird that you moved to Alaska. I didn't
expect to run into them there because the Nail Chick
from where they lived was kind of like an hour
and a half or so, So I wasn't expecting to
run into them there. So when we did, I was nice.
I said hello, you know, we talked a few minutes.
But I mean that's really the only interaction I've had
(14:50):
with them that in him inviting us to the wedding.
Is Elizabeth there with him? If I remember correctly, she
was with him and George and their mom. That's who
all was there. While they're speaking to me. I never
really met his girlfriend, so I'm assuming that's who that was,
the female that was with him. Can you seem normal?
Everything with the whole family was kind of like talking
(15:10):
to normal people. Nothing ever came up about the situation,
nothing crazy ever came from it. And you didn't go
to the wedding. I did not. Why not? I don't
know when they moved here, And like I said, in
the back of my head, I kind of like was like,
I wonder if they're involved. I don't involved myself with that.
I stayed away as far as possible to. Whenever they
invited me, I was like, oh, you know, that's cool, congratulations,
(15:32):
but then like hung up the phone, was like, no,
not going to that. Angela Wagner's role has centered on
the narrative that she was one pulling the strings, the
overbearing mother, obsessed with being the ultimate matriarch. But what
if everyone has it wrong and Billy was calling the shots.
We last saw fifty one year old Billy Wagner in
(15:53):
court in February of twenty twenty two. He's facing twenty
two criminal charges and connection to the killings. At six
foot six and two hundred and seventy four pounds, Billy
is an imposing figure, but his hulking stature wasn't the
only thing that got our attention. In November of twenty eighteen,
this was his first court appearance regarding the murders, and
(16:15):
he entered the room with a scowl on his face
and several noticeable tattoos. The first is on his left arm,
and this tattoo is described by the Anti Defamation League
as three interlocking triangles, known as the Knot of the Slain.
It's of Norse origin. On his right hand, between his
(16:36):
point of finger and thumb was also a scorpion tattoo.
Some think the eight segmented scorpion on Billy's trigger finger
represents the eight rodent victims. It's important to note that
George and Billy have pleaded not guilty and have not
yet stood trial for the killings. Here's Katie Studios producer
(16:56):
Chris Graves speaking with death investigator Joseph's Got Morgan, Stephanie
and Jeff. Now. I think that people look at Billy
and my gosh, you know when you see him walking
into a courtroom. I think that he certainly makes lesser
men shake. I mean, he is an imposing presence that
folks have not seen this guy on camera. Do yourself
(17:17):
a favor and take a look at this guy's just
physical dimensions, lumbering forth into that courtroom, massive hands, these
kind of odd tattoos that he's got on his body.
You know, he's just a big, big man, imposing. You know,
he is the kind of guy you would not want
angry at you. So does that hulk that he presents us?
(17:41):
Does that mean that he's not capable of planning something
like this? Is it the reverse? Everybody's money has been
on Angela? How do we know? You know, we have
heard now from multiple people about how Billy Wagner would
grind his teeth and it's such a scary visual. Actually
thought about this when I drove out by the Wagner
(18:02):
home place. You know, there was a story that came
up that every time Billy would get angry, his way
of apologizing to angel was a golden buy her a basket.
That her walls in her kitchen were decorated with these baskets.
And wow, isn't that something when you think about that,
you know, And can you imagine being a family member,
even a peripheral family member, that walks into the place
(18:24):
and the first thing you're gonna do is to look
up on the wall and see if Angel has added
another basket, you know, because anything that she says or
does you know the billy's gonna fly out with the handle,
makes it gonna break something. I don't know. I don't
know what the family dynamic is, but I tell you this,
you've kind of got this material representation of it in
these things. He would buy and she'd put him up
(18:45):
on the wall. Sure, but you also look at him
and you know he's only had a seventh grade education,
and would someone like that be capable of executing a
plan of this difficulty? Just to play Devil's Advocate, I'll
play that game. And you know, we can talk about
this being nuanced intellectually, I guess on one level. But
(19:08):
when you see the savagery and the brutality that was
exacted from a rodent family, I don't know is that
a possibility could he be controlled at that level? Or
did he sit down and he had a few lucid
moments and he put this master plan together and he's
telling everybody what to do. I don't know. Hopefully that's
(19:28):
going to come out of court. And that's what's so
compelling about this, because we've got the brutality that's well documented.
Things are hidden from us at this point in time
for a good reason. It brings me back to the
overarching theme here, and that is who's calling the shots.
Didn't surprise you that it happened to be Jake and
(19:48):
Angela that took the pleas out of the four of them.
It's not surprising to me that those two would kind
of meld together, if you will. And it's going to
be Billy and George against the world at this point time.
I hope that they've got sufficient defense counsel because it's
going to be a hard hill for them to climb.
(20:10):
Let's stop here for another break. In speaking with people
who knew the Wagner family, we learned about the dynamics
in the family, and George and Billy seemed to butt
heads quite a bit. We also learned that there were
(20:34):
sort of alliances within this cult like family. Angela and
Jake were described to us as very close and often together,
and on the other side of that George and Billy
were often very close and together, and people went out
of their way to say that Angela and George did
not spend a lot of time together, and Jake and
Billy did not spend a lot of time together. So
(20:54):
it's interesting to hear that despite being on the outside
a very tight for some, there were some cracks in
that and some kind of power dynamics going on behind
closed doors. And to that end, there had also been
rumors that accused dad Billy Wagner was possibly not the
(21:16):
father of youngest son, Jake Wagner. We did, in fact
go down that rabbit hole and pulled records and in
fact pulled Jake Wagner's birth certificate and both Billy Wagner
and Angela Wagner are in fact listed as his parents,
So we put that rumor to rest. But again in
the town it spoke to sort of an alliance between
(21:39):
Angela Wagner and her youngest son, Jake Wagner, and maybe
how Billy Wagner and George Wagner the eldest son, that
they were a fractured family. Here again is Angela Wagner's
have brother Chris, speaking to Jeff about what he thought
of Billy Wagner and Angelo Wagner's relationship. How would you
(21:59):
describe Angela and Billy's relationship from when I was around it?
He treated her like shit and I mean just talked
to her like she less. And Third, Billy continues to
proclaim his innocence and his attorneys have requested the death
penalty be dismissed before the trial. This request has been
denied in that hearing Judge Randy During ruled that Billy
(22:23):
Wagner's trial will start no later than October thirty first,
twenty twenty two. Based on our research, Billy Wagner has
been in trouble with the law before. Charges include more
serious ones like tampering with evidence and receiving stolen property
in two thousand and nine. There are also some minor
(22:44):
offenses such as speeding, driving without mud flaps on his truck,
and voting without flotation devices. It should be noted that
the last charge happened in Alaska, so post Road and murders.
Billy Wagner was enjoying some time on the lake. Frederica
Wagner is Billy Wagner's mother. Patricia worked for many years
(23:06):
for Frederica Patricia was also accused murderer George Wagner's former
mother in law. All that to say, Patricia has many
in roads to the Wagner's Frederick again staying Angela, she
always believed that Angela married Billy for the money. She
thinks Angela got bregnant just to trap Billy so she
could get to Wagner money. Do you think Angela felt that?
(23:28):
And Angela could tell that Frederica did not like her
and not approve of her. Oh yeah, they never did
get along, I know you. One time she worked for
freder Quinn. I don't know what all that was over.
Patricia's relationship with Frederica was a working one, but the
two were very close and Patricia got intimate insights into
(23:48):
the Wagner family's life, especially Frederica and her late husband,
Bob Wagner Billy's parents. What was Frederica's husband like? He
was a sweetheart. He didn't cause no trouble for nobody.
He stayed on the farm except for him, Govid Cracker's
a good grocery shopping. He stayed on the farm and
(24:09):
worked with him horses until past dark, and Frederica would
get on to him all time, but working too long
and too hard, especially the older he got. And we're
sitting there and they run one day and he said
the sweetest thing, and I'll never forget it. But sitting
there watching the horse races, and Frederica came in. She said,
talk to Bob, and Jesus, oh, you don't want to
seem old. What I can say. He looked her, and
(24:30):
he's a sweetheart. When I look at you, I see
you the day I met you. Jesus gettable. And she's
been down to give him a big old kids And
that was the sweetest thing I'd ever seen in my life.
I'm thankful that Bob had Alzheimer's there when all this happened,
so he didn't really know what was going on. And
it kills me that Frederick has to go through it.
(24:55):
Frederica and Bob Wagner had a long marriage and worked
on a horse farm. They owned the Flying w In
addition to raising prize ponies, the Wagner's also bred dogs.
It seems a wholesome living, but there have been some
rumors of Wagner's misdeeds. Turns out that Frederica Wagner, often
known as the pious head of the hard working Wagner
(25:17):
family was umbrelled with some questionable dealings on behalf of
her son, Billy. We know that Billy and Angela Wagner
were convicted of receiving stolen property in twenty twelve. The
specifics of the following story are Patricia's recollection of events.
Here again Patricia speaking with Stephanie and Jeff. A lot
(25:38):
of Billy's pads. Billy's gotten in trouble and gone to
jail board do you know for what? Yeah, they would
pull up to stop and look Billy's rig up to
a drailer and take off with it in whatever goods
we're inside. They would sail and I got bust to
board a couple of times Billy had the rig and
(25:59):
what got him god is but they sold a truckload
of boots and they took them to the slea market
sell them. And the police said they would them gotten
caught if they just sold the boots by themselves. That
they sold the boots in the box which has tracking
numbers on them. To what got them caught. Billie Wagner
and Angela went to jail over that, and a couple
of other people had gone to jail with them because
(26:21):
they were in on it too. We've heard versions of
this story. The only reason I know is because I
was sent to the jail house in Pike County to
put money on their books. That's the only reason I know.
So it's not here say for me put money on
their books. That means like for commissary and phone calls
(26:43):
and stuff. Yeah, who called you and asked you to
do that? My boss? Oh Frederica, okay, got it. And
if money wasn't really an issue, because we've always heard
too that, oh, well, the Waxman's family's prestigious and they
have money, they have money, and yes, Frederick it does
have some old money. But most of the money that
Fredericka has she worked herself to the bone, her and
(27:04):
her husband boat. But Billy was spoilt. He got everything,
and Bob would get so mad that Frederica would hand
Billy money like you wouldn't believe it, just handed to
it because if she didn't get threw a fit. So
she's builty. It's just one faure after another with him.
But it breaks my heart to see her and her
(27:25):
daughter and her other son go thruthian. And my honest
opinion is, yeah, part of it may have been behind
but there's something greater behind it. They've drug other family
members in, cousins and girlfriends and brothers. To me, it
maybe have something to do with that one little girl,
(27:47):
But to me, there's a bigger reason. You can't tell
me that they walked in and killed eight people over
one child. I'm never gonna believe that. I don't know
why they did it, or if they did it for
somebody else. I don't know that Between man God, whoever
they did it for. Who that may be is not
clear to us. As we await upcoming child dates, more
(28:11):
evidence continues pouring out. According to this document, if it's true,
George only goes along at the last minute to protect
Jake from his own father. The document Anjeanette is referring
to is Motion eighty filed by George Wagner's defense attorneys.
What's going on when big brother thinks I gotta go
(28:32):
along to protect my little brother because dad might kill him,
it doesn't really kind of make you think who is
calling the shots in this operation. The state made a
deal with the devil basically anyway says we made a
deal with the devil. Unfortunate in this case, well, it
seems that mister Wagner drives semitruck for a living and
(28:54):
the government put a bug in it. They're saying, basically,
the cops were doing things to try to egg these
people on so that they would say things on wiretaps.
It's called tickling the wire. It's very common they put
information out and then see if anything's come of it.
I think they use this in mob cases and stuff
like that. I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself,
(29:16):
what on earth could be so damning in these recordings.
I guess George in the scenario was ready to die
for his brother. That would be one hell of a
car ride, wouldn't it. More on that next time. If
(29:37):
you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other
hit series Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday
wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos,
follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes
and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves,
(29:59):
and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis,
Music by Jared Aston, Audio mixing by Ken Novak, The
Piked and Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
I've been receiving a lot of questions lately since God
told me to put my account public. I had been hiding,
specifically from all of the issues that were surrounding my
life in Ohio. And the most common question that keep
being asked is did you know Jake Wagner was a
murderer before you married him? This is The Piped and Massacre,
(00:31):
a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode three.
The Alaska Wife and the Father figure Courtney Armstrong, a
television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Laidecker and Jeff Shane.
Elizabeth Wagner, whose voice we just heard taken from one
(00:53):
of her public social media posts, has been something of
an elusive figure in this case. After the massacre, we
know the Wagner family liquidated all their assets and moved
from Pike County to Alaska to start a new life.
For two years, father Billy Wagner, mother Angela Wagner, eldest
son George, and youngest son Jake, along with the daughter
(01:17):
he shared with victim, Hanname Rodin, lived a quiet and
unremarkable life. They attended a local church regularly, and it
was through the church that admitted murderer youngest son, Jake Wagner,
met his soon to be young wife, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, often
referred to as Beth, as a wide eyed, slim woman
(01:38):
in her twenties with light blonde hair and blue eyes.
She paints and was a Sunday school teacher. Elizabeth would
become the third young woman to step into the Wagner's web.
Here Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa speaking recently to Judge Deering
and the Defense about the significance of Elizabeth Wagner and
(01:59):
her whereabouts. It appears she's been in hiding. Judge, we
would like to interview Beth, who is Jake's ex wife,
and we've not been provided her address. She's a key
States witness, we believe, and we have tried to locate her.
(02:19):
The State says people are in danger, but they have
not filed anything to preserve or present that issue. Elizabeth
Wagner basically fled for her life when she left to
Wagner home. I personally wrote a letter to the Social
Security Administration to her social Security number changed so that
she could change her identity and not the aggress of
(02:39):
potential harm. Understandably so the homicides had been committed by then,
and she was very much afraid for her life. So
that is the reason. It is because of potential danger
to this witness. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Elizabeth serves as
a very big piece to this puzzle. She's appeared on
(03:00):
several lists as a potential witness. It also speaks to
the fact that there is a pattern here. We were
able to track on Elizabeth on social media, and because
she's made her post public, were able to play you
some clips from those. The most common questions I keep
being asked is did you know Jake Wagner was a
(03:21):
murderer before you married him? And the answer is not really.
Because he came to our church in Alaska, which was
pastored by Caleb Cinerewski at the time, who was a
very young preacher. He had vouched for the Wagner family
and told the congregation that it was his understanding that
(03:43):
they had been troubled by news reporters, but that it
had been a slander and that the things were not true.
So that being the case, I was not exactly set up,
but in a way horridged to believe that Jake Wagner
was innocent, So I got to know him. I spent
(04:07):
a fair amount of time with him and his family,
saw him every week at church for several months, spend
a fair amount of time with his daughter, and it
just came to be that he and his family needed
to move south from Alaska back to the Lower forty eight.
I did not know the reasons for this at the time.
(04:29):
In retrospect, I have some personal opinions as to why
that may have been, But the main thing I just
wanted to communicate to people is that no, I was
not aware that Jake Wagner was involved so intimately with
these horrible, horrible killings, and that if I had known,
(04:50):
there's no way in a million years that I ever
would have married him. I was very, very, very upset
after all of these things went south so quickly. I mean,
I'd only just got married and then I find out
that my husband is not only not who I thought
he was, but literally a person's worst nightmare. So I
(05:15):
had to move three times since then, and I am
not allowed to speak publicly or in private about the
murders or I would face personal consequences from the legal
system of Ohio. This was a woman who was by
all accounts, fearing for her life. Can you imagine being
(05:36):
a young girl living in Alaska you meet a guy
through your pastor marry into the family who you now
know to be a family of killers. There was one
thing that always struck us, and we weren't really able
to talk about it too deeply in season two, is
that on August fifteenth, twenty eighteen, three months before the
Wagner family was in fact arrested, Elizabeth went to the
(06:00):
Lace and Pike County and filed a report of threats
and harassment and that her address at that time was homeless.
So that just offers a little insight into the life
that Elizabeth was living. Special Prosecutor Angie Caneppo was recently
in court detailing the horrific situation Elizabeth Wagner was in
(06:23):
when she lived with her husband, murderer Jake Wagner, Jake's
brother George, and their parents, Angela and Billie. It's a
story that might sound chillingly familiar given what we now
know about the Wagner's mistreatment of George's ex wife and victim,
Hanname Rodin, Jake's ex girlfriend. In regards to Elizabeth Wagner,
(06:46):
she ultimately knew in Bastill, Ohio with them and lived
with the defendant and his entire family. Again, they'll see
this same thing happening over and over again, defending his family,
controlling every movement of the list at Wagner, including anat
limited to demanding all of her personal identifying information, her passwords,
et cetera, and downloading tracking applications on the police one
(07:09):
of her devices, specifically her phone, so when she would
leave the residents to go to library to apply for
a job. And this all this information we have on
the wire conversation between George and Jay on the night
of their wedding, Jake asked for all of her identifying information,
including passwords to any emails, social media, etc. I would
(07:32):
note that was before they consummated their marriage, So that
is how pervasive this amount of control is. There's a
few important things to note in what Angie Kneppa just
laid out. The first is how Elizabeth is the third
woman who entered the inner circle of the Wagner family
(07:52):
to end up under their complete control and running for
her life. The second is a reference Kneppa makes to
the courted wire conversations. The prosecution is obtained between George
and Jake Wagner. It begs the question of what else
will be revealed in soon approaching court proceedings. The accusations
(08:15):
of Elizabeth again, they accused her of being mildly physically
abusive with the child and accused her of poisoning them
with food. And basically it was when miss Wagner accused
her of poisoning them with food that is when the
alarms went off in her head because she was privy
to conversations that they were having about how Tabitha had
(08:38):
done that. As a reminder, Tabitha is George Wagner's ex
wife who lived with the family before they took custody
of her son away. You know, she was led to
leave that Tabitha was this terrible accusan. But when she
started being accused of things that they had told her
they accused Tabitha of, she became very concerned for her
well being. Jake and Angela Wagner confronted her in the kitchen.
(09:01):
This was the kitchen is the source of family meetings
typically amongst the Wagners, and they confronted her because Angela
had reported to Jake that the child in question had
claimed used by Beth Wagner, and Beth adamantly denied this,
And I would note the record that the child never
(09:22):
repeated that to anybody else, including Jake. But Jade didn't
tell miss Wagner that if he ever learned that she
hadn't in fact abused this child, that he would beat
her with a bat, and that if he didn't do it,
then his brother George Wood, and if his brother George didn't,
then Billy Wood, and that would be the right thing
(09:43):
to do. You want to talk about gas lighting in
a situation. So Elizabeth, living now with the Wagners, is
hearing accusations from the Wagners about previous women, about them
being bad and that they were poisoning the children. Now
(10:04):
with her, they create these allegations saying that Elizabeth is
poisoning the children. They're creating these stories and rumors amongst
each other and then threatening her. If it's true me,
Jake Wagner, your husband is going to beat you with
a bat. And if not me, my older brother George,
he's going to beat you with a bat. Oh wait,
(10:24):
if not him, my dad, Billy Wagner is going to
beat you with a bat over a rumor that they're
starting within their own little weird bubble. I mean, we're
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(10:48):
These alleged threats against Elizabeth Wagner did not only extend
to her, but to her family as well. Tabitha, George
Wagner's ex wife and mother of his child, cut ties
with the Wagners. She ran in the night from their property,
afraid for her life. We sadly know what happened to
Hannah may Roden. Finally, Jake's now ex wife, Elizabeth was
(11:12):
caught living the same nightmare. While Elizabeth was only with
Jake Wagner for a short time, she met several relatives
and friends in the Wagner's in a circle. Here's Jeff
speaking with an anonymous Wagner friend and Angela's half brother, Chris.
What do you make of Elizabeth? She's a little bit
out there. I think she was indullible. I don't know.
(11:33):
She was easy for Jake to target, I think. And
what about in Alaska Jake's wife, Elizabeth? Did you ever
hear of her or meet her or talk to her?
That girl was weird, just strange. Did she come back
to Ohio with them from Alaska. Yeah, do you know
what happened to that relationship? Oh Ny split up. I
don't know exactly why. This is our anonymous Wagner source
(11:57):
on what she thought about Elizabeth, specifically how living with
the entire Wagner family might have impacted her. Did you
know Elizabeth Jake's wife. I didn't know her super well.
I met her, I think three times, and she was
a little odd. If you ever watch her things she
has on like what's that thing called TikTok? Stuff that
(12:19):
she said on there and by all means like said
I was against it, saying that they didn't kill no
one and then supposed me they didn't like Angela was
a bit you know, and told her what to do
and you know, stuff like I Yes, I definitely think
Angela would rule stuff like that with her, especially living
under her house, especially with the kids. And I definitely
think whenever Elizabeth started saying that Sudds was calling her
(12:42):
mom and stuff like that, I think Angela is the
one that took that way to heart. She didn't like that. No.
SuDS is the nickname those close to the child used
for Angela's granddaughter. Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden's daughter. Angela
obviously was a grandma, But I think she played it
off more if that she wanted people to think that
(13:03):
sudden was her kids. Also, if you ever was around them,
that's just the way it put off. And what was
your first impression of Elizabeth The first time we met her,
she was like happy, go lucky and talked and played
with the kids and everything seemed cool. And then the
next time it was like she was just set in
the truck and they was here for like three or
four hours working on trucks, and she just sent in
(13:25):
the truck the whole time and didn't want to talk
to nobody. It was like she didn't want to be here,
you know, she didn't want to be in Ohio. You know,
she would have rather not came down here. And then
when she did, she knew she made the mistake of
coming here. I don't know why or what. Besides, like
I said, I think Angela rolled her like one of
her kids, you know, That's what I think it was.
(13:47):
I think it was more Angela on her than Jake
would have been anything like that. Jeff recently spoke with Wendy,
an old family friend of the web Wagner's about being
invited to Jake and Elizabeth's wedding. According to Wendy, before
his arrest, Killer's son Jake Wagner was out and about
(14:08):
in public, seemingly unbothered. They have this little place called
the Nail Chick here, and they did this little cute
fair that had animals and pig races and just a
few small rides and stuff, and we just kind of
all ran into each other and sat down and started
talking about how everybody was, how everybody's been, because we
haven't seen each other really since we were kids. Wow.
(14:29):
And so you're up in Alaska. Yes, Like we all
just kind of like sit back and think, like it's
kind of weird that you moved to Alaska. I didn't
expect to run into them there because the Nail Chick
from where they lived was kind of like an hour
and a half or so, So I wasn't expecting to
run into them there. So when we did, I was nice.
I said hello, you know, we talked a few minutes.
But I mean that's really the only interaction I've had
(14:50):
with them that in him inviting us to the wedding.
Is Elizabeth there with him? If I remember correctly, she
was with him and George and their mom. That's who
all was there. While they're speaking to me. I never
really met his girlfriend, so I'm assuming that's who that was,
the female that was with him. Can you seem normal?
Everything with the whole family was kind of like talking
(15:10):
to normal people. Nothing ever came up about the situation,
nothing crazy ever came from it. And you didn't go
to the wedding. I did not. Why not? I don't
know when they moved here, And like I said, in
the back of my head, I kind of like was like,
I wonder if they're involved. I don't involved myself with that.
I stayed away as far as possible to. Whenever they
invited me, I was like, oh, you know, that's cool, congratulations,
(15:32):
but then like hung up the phone, was like, no,
not going to that. Angela Wagner's role has centered on
the narrative that she was one pulling the strings, the
overbearing mother, obsessed with being the ultimate matriarch. But what
if everyone has it wrong and Billy was calling the shots.
We last saw fifty one year old Billy Wagner in
(15:53):
court in February of twenty twenty two. He's facing twenty
two criminal charges and connection to the killings. At six
foot six and two hundred and seventy four pounds, Billy
is an imposing figure, but his hulking stature wasn't the
only thing that got our attention. In November of twenty eighteen,
this was his first court appearance regarding the murders, and
(16:15):
he entered the room with a scowl on his face
and several noticeable tattoos. The first is on his left arm,
and this tattoo is described by the Anti Defamation League
as three interlocking triangles, known as the Knot of the Slain.
It's of Norse origin. On his right hand, between his
(16:36):
point of finger and thumb was also a scorpion tattoo.
Some think the eight segmented scorpion on Billy's trigger finger
represents the eight rodent victims. It's important to note that
George and Billy have pleaded not guilty and have not
yet stood trial for the killings. Here's Katie Studios producer
(16:56):
Chris Graves speaking with death investigator Joseph's Got Morgan, Stephanie
and Jeff. Now. I think that people look at Billy
and my gosh, you know when you see him walking
into a courtroom. I think that he certainly makes lesser
men shake. I mean, he is an imposing presence that
folks have not seen this guy on camera. Do yourself
(17:17):
a favor and take a look at this guy's just
physical dimensions, lumbering forth into that courtroom, massive hands, these
kind of odd tattoos that he's got on his body.
You know, he's just a big, big man, imposing. You know,
he is the kind of guy you would not want
angry at you. So does that hulk that he presents us?
(17:41):
Does that mean that he's not capable of planning something
like this? Is it the reverse? Everybody's money has been
on Angela? How do we know? You know, we have
heard now from multiple people about how Billy Wagner would
grind his teeth and it's such a scary visual. Actually
thought about this when I drove out by the Wagner
(18:02):
home place. You know, there was a story that came
up that every time Billy would get angry, his way
of apologizing to angel was a golden buy her a basket.
That her walls in her kitchen were decorated with these baskets.
And wow, isn't that something when you think about that,
you know, And can you imagine being a family member,
even a peripheral family member, that walks into the place
(18:24):
and the first thing you're gonna do is to look
up on the wall and see if Angel has added
another basket, you know, because anything that she says or
does you know the billy's gonna fly out with the handle,
makes it gonna break something. I don't know. I don't
know what the family dynamic is, but I tell you this,
you've kind of got this material representation of it in
these things. He would buy and she'd put him up
(18:45):
on the wall. Sure, but you also look at him
and you know he's only had a seventh grade education,
and would someone like that be capable of executing a
plan of this difficulty? Just to play Devil's Advocate, I'll
play that game. And you know, we can talk about
this being nuanced intellectually, I guess on one level. But
(19:08):
when you see the savagery and the brutality that was
exacted from a rodent family, I don't know is that
a possibility could he be controlled at that level? Or
did he sit down and he had a few lucid
moments and he put this master plan together and he's
telling everybody what to do. I don't know. Hopefully that's
(19:28):
going to come out of court. And that's what's so
compelling about this, because we've got the brutality that's well documented.
Things are hidden from us at this point in time
for a good reason. It brings me back to the
overarching theme here, and that is who's calling the shots.
Didn't surprise you that it happened to be Jake and
(19:48):
Angela that took the pleas out of the four of them.
It's not surprising to me that those two would kind
of meld together, if you will. And it's going to
be Billy and George against the world at this point time.
I hope that they've got sufficient defense counsel because it's
going to be a hard hill for them to climb.
(20:10):
Let's stop here for another break. In speaking with people
who knew the Wagner family, we learned about the dynamics
in the family, and George and Billy seemed to butt
heads quite a bit. We also learned that there were
(20:34):
sort of alliances within this cult like family. Angela and
Jake were described to us as very close and often together,
and on the other side of that George and Billy
were often very close and together, and people went out
of their way to say that Angela and George did
not spend a lot of time together, and Jake and
Billy did not spend a lot of time together. So
(20:54):
it's interesting to hear that despite being on the outside
a very tight for some, there were some cracks in
that and some kind of power dynamics going on behind
closed doors. And to that end, there had also been
rumors that accused dad Billy Wagner was possibly not the
(21:16):
father of youngest son, Jake Wagner. We did, in fact
go down that rabbit hole and pulled records and in
fact pulled Jake Wagner's birth certificate and both Billy Wagner
and Angela Wagner are in fact listed as his parents,
So we put that rumor to rest. But again in
the town it spoke to sort of an alliance between
(21:39):
Angela Wagner and her youngest son, Jake Wagner, and maybe
how Billy Wagner and George Wagner the eldest son, that
they were a fractured family. Here again is Angela Wagner's
have brother Chris, speaking to Jeff about what he thought
of Billy Wagner and Angelo Wagner's relationship. How would you
(21:59):
describe Angela and Billy's relationship from when I was around it?
He treated her like shit and I mean just talked
to her like she less. And Third, Billy continues to
proclaim his innocence and his attorneys have requested the death
penalty be dismissed before the trial. This request has been
denied in that hearing Judge Randy During ruled that Billy
(22:23):
Wagner's trial will start no later than October thirty first,
twenty twenty two. Based on our research, Billy Wagner has
been in trouble with the law before. Charges include more
serious ones like tampering with evidence and receiving stolen property
in two thousand and nine. There are also some minor
(22:44):
offenses such as speeding, driving without mud flaps on his truck,
and voting without flotation devices. It should be noted that
the last charge happened in Alaska, so post Road and murders.
Billy Wagner was enjoying some time on the lake. Frederica
Wagner is Billy Wagner's mother. Patricia worked for many years
(23:06):
for Frederica Patricia was also accused murderer George Wagner's former
mother in law. All that to say, Patricia has many
in roads to the Wagner's Frederick again staying Angela, she
always believed that Angela married Billy for the money. She
thinks Angela got bregnant just to trap Billy so she
could get to Wagner money. Do you think Angela felt that?
(23:28):
And Angela could tell that Frederica did not like her
and not approve of her. Oh yeah, they never did
get along, I know you. One time she worked for
freder Quinn. I don't know what all that was over.
Patricia's relationship with Frederica was a working one, but the
two were very close and Patricia got intimate insights into
(23:48):
the Wagner family's life, especially Frederica and her late husband,
Bob Wagner Billy's parents. What was Frederica's husband like? He
was a sweetheart. He didn't cause no trouble for nobody.
He stayed on the farm except for him, Govid Cracker's
a good grocery shopping. He stayed on the farm and
(24:09):
worked with him horses until past dark, and Frederica would
get on to him all time, but working too long
and too hard, especially the older he got. And we're
sitting there and they run one day and he said
the sweetest thing, and I'll never forget it. But sitting
there watching the horse races, and Frederica came in. She said,
talk to Bob, and Jesus, oh, you don't want to
seem old. What I can say. He looked her, and
(24:30):
he's a sweetheart. When I look at you, I see
you the day I met you. Jesus gettable. And she's
been down to give him a big old kids And
that was the sweetest thing I'd ever seen in my life.
I'm thankful that Bob had Alzheimer's there when all this happened,
so he didn't really know what was going on. And
it kills me that Frederick has to go through it.
(24:55):
Frederica and Bob Wagner had a long marriage and worked
on a horse farm. They owned the Flying w In
addition to raising prize ponies, the Wagner's also bred dogs.
It seems a wholesome living, but there have been some
rumors of Wagner's misdeeds. Turns out that Frederica Wagner, often
known as the pious head of the hard working Wagner
(25:17):
family was umbrelled with some questionable dealings on behalf of
her son, Billy. We know that Billy and Angela Wagner
were convicted of receiving stolen property in twenty twelve. The
specifics of the following story are Patricia's recollection of events.
Here again Patricia speaking with Stephanie and Jeff. A lot
(25:38):
of Billy's pads. Billy's gotten in trouble and gone to
jail board do you know for what? Yeah, they would
pull up to stop and look Billy's rig up to
a drailer and take off with it in whatever goods
we're inside. They would sail and I got bust to
board a couple of times Billy had the rig and
(25:59):
what got him god is but they sold a truckload
of boots and they took them to the slea market
sell them. And the police said they would them gotten
caught if they just sold the boots by themselves. That
they sold the boots in the box which has tracking
numbers on them. To what got them caught. Billie Wagner
and Angela went to jail over that, and a couple
of other people had gone to jail with them because
(26:21):
they were in on it too. We've heard versions of
this story. The only reason I know is because I
was sent to the jail house in Pike County to
put money on their books. That's the only reason I know.
So it's not here say for me put money on
their books. That means like for commissary and phone calls
(26:43):
and stuff. Yeah, who called you and asked you to
do that? My boss? Oh Frederica, okay, got it. And
if money wasn't really an issue, because we've always heard
too that, oh, well, the Waxman's family's prestigious and they
have money, they have money, and yes, Frederick it does
have some old money. But most of the money that
Fredericka has she worked herself to the bone, her and
(27:04):
her husband boat. But Billy was spoilt. He got everything,
and Bob would get so mad that Frederica would hand
Billy money like you wouldn't believe it, just handed to
it because if she didn't get threw a fit. So
she's builty. It's just one faure after another with him.
But it breaks my heart to see her and her
(27:25):
daughter and her other son go thruthian. And my honest
opinion is, yeah, part of it may have been behind
but there's something greater behind it. They've drug other family
members in, cousins and girlfriends and brothers. To me, it
maybe have something to do with that one little girl,
(27:47):
But to me, there's a bigger reason. You can't tell
me that they walked in and killed eight people over
one child. I'm never gonna believe that. I don't know
why they did it, or if they did it for
somebody else. I don't know that Between man God, whoever
they did it for. Who that may be is not
clear to us. As we await upcoming child dates, more
(28:11):
evidence continues pouring out. According to this document, if it's true,
George only goes along at the last minute to protect
Jake from his own father. The document Anjeanette is referring
to is Motion eighty filed by George Wagner's defense attorneys.
What's going on when big brother thinks I gotta go
(28:32):
along to protect my little brother because dad might kill him,
it doesn't really kind of make you think who is
calling the shots in this operation. The state made a
deal with the devil basically anyway says we made a
deal with the devil. Unfortunate in this case, well, it
seems that mister Wagner drives semitruck for a living and
(28:54):
the government put a bug in it. They're saying, basically,
the cops were doing things to try to egg these
people on so that they would say things on wiretaps.
It's called tickling the wire. It's very common they put
information out and then see if anything's come of it.
I think they use this in mob cases and stuff
like that. I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself,
(29:16):
what on earth could be so damning in these recordings.
I guess George in the scenario was ready to die
for his brother. That would be one hell of a
car ride, wouldn't it. More on that next time. If
(29:37):
you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other
hit series Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday
wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos,
follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes
and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves,
(29:59):
and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis,
Music by Jared Aston, Audio mixing by Ken Novak, The
Piked and Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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