October 1, 2025 • 25 mins
Exploring the questions and separating fact from speculation around Bryan Kohberger's actions and any potential connection to the incel community. Sociologist Michael Kimmel and other experts examine factors—like isolation, frustration, and online influence—that can shape young men, offering insight into a troubling but important topic.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
He spent a lot of time by himself, isolated and online.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Elliott Rogers, he was good looking, and smart and interesting,
he had a good personality and all of these things,
and yet he couldn't get a date. And he decided
at some point to blaming all women for his problems.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode seven, The in Cell Theory
Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideker,
Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. On July twenty third, twenty
(00:49):
twenty five, Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life
sentences for the brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Killy Gonsalvez,
Xana Kernodle, and eth Than Shapin. For many, his guilty
plea felt like a long awaited end to a nightmare
chapter in Moscow, Idaho. But for others the closure was bittersweet.
(01:13):
They still carry unanswered questions and anger. One of the
most striking omissions was that Brian Coberger was never required
to explain himself. Prosecutor Bill Thompson did not demand an allocution,
meaning Coburger never stood in court and stated why he
committed these unspeakable crimes. He offered no insight, no apology,
(01:36):
and no explanation. And so the question of why still
looms large. What could have driven him to do something
so heinous? What was the motive? One theory that is
circulated is that Brian Coberger may have been an insult
an involuntary celibate, that someone who feels rejected, especially by women,
(01:59):
and and who sometimes channels that rejection into rage and violence.
Could Coberger have targeted one of the young women he
murdered because of this mindset? Is there real weight to
this theory or is it a label that's too easily applied?
And perhaps the biggest question of all, what does it
(02:20):
actually mean to be an in cel? Dell bunpack these questions.
We turned to sociologist doctor Michael Kimmel. He's a leading
expert on men's studies and masculinities. He joins us to
explain what the in cell community is, what it isn't,
and how it fits into the larger conversation around Brian Coberger.
(02:42):
He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
If you can just tell me a little bit about
your career and your background.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
How did you find kind of your niche in gender studies?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, my PhD is in sociology, and I was a
sociology professor for many years, and swirling around the academy
was you know, feminism was women's studies, and it was just,
you know, it was too compelling and too important, I
think to ignore. Then I realized early on that there
really weren't very good studies research done on men as men.
(03:17):
You know, there was a lot of stuff happening for
people which by which they interviewed men, and then there
were work on women, but there wasn't anything that really
addressed masculinity or gender and how it affected men. So
in early nineteen ninety I decided I was going to
write a history of the idea of masculinity in America,
which had never been written. That was my first book,
(03:37):
Man Who in America? And then from then I've worked
on young men ages sixteen to twenty six in a
book called Guyland, And most recently my work has been
on what I called angry white men. Why are white
men so angry? Why are they so resentful? Why do
they feel like they're such victims? My book angry white
Men came out in twenty thirteen, and the word in
(03:58):
cell hadn't been invented it.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
What is the manosphere for people who don't know or
never heard of it before?
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Can you tell me exactly what that is?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, the manosphere is a general term for that part
of the Internet that has been appropriated by and colonized
by a large number of men who use it as
a platform for exploring some things that are you know,
good things like how do you be a good father?
To a place where they can air their grievances about
(04:30):
their own victimization. The manosphere tends to be very white,
somewhat middle and working class, and it tends to be
on the whole angry. Now the manosphere in general begins,
I think the real the beginning of the manosphere as
a place where men will come to air these kinds
of grievances begin with what was called gamergate in the
(04:52):
mid to late nineteen nineties. And Gamergate was basically an
effort by young male gamers to keep women out of
the gaming environment because there were suddenly all of these
multiplayer games. They were these online games, people were gaming live,
and the guys thought that this was like part of
their life. And when all these girls started, you know,
(05:14):
becoming gamers, they really resented it. They felt it was
like an invasion of their space. So the Man of
Sphere was an attempt to sort of say, Okay, we're
gonna build border boundaries. What the word in cell stands for?
Involuntary celibacy in cell, and it means that you haven't
had a date, you haven't had sex in perhaps a
(05:36):
long time or ever. And that's not by your choice.
It's not like you're saving it for marriage. It's not
like you are waiting for miss right. You want to
get laid and you can't. Now, whose fault is that?
When you listen to guys who claim to be in cells,
it's not their fault, it's the fault of women.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Here.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
You have all these women, thanks to feminism, thanks to
women's liberation, all these girls wearing really tight clothes, really hot,
really beautiful, throwing it out there and just inviting you
to come on to them, and then they turn you down.
Whose fault is that? It's their fault? Because you see,
men don't see. So the involuntary celibacy is I want,
(06:20):
I'm not getting Whose fault is that and they blame
the women. Women are you know, sexually aegentic. They have
their own voice, they know what they want. They just
don't want it with me, and clearly that's their fault.
I'm plenty nice, good looking, I dress well, I'm trying
really hard, you know, and they still turn me down.
What's wrong with them? Now? Once upon a time you
(06:42):
would answer that question not with what's wrong with them,
but what's wrong with me? One of the great things
about the Internet is it provides instant community for people
who feel isolated, lonely, etc. And so you might have been,
you know, just sat in your bedroom and you know,
be grumpy. But with the Internet, there are other guys going, yeah,
(07:03):
I get you, bro, I completely understand man, I know
what you're feeling. That that happened to me too, and
you have a bond. You have a community of self
perceived victims.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
One of the most persistent questions that has surfaced is
whether or not Brian Koeberger could have been an inceel.
Does his background and behavior fit the profile of someone
drawn to this community, and if so, what would that
mean about his mindset, his motivations, and the way he
saw the world. To help us break this down here
(07:35):
Stephanie Leidecker, joined by crime analyst Body Movin.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
We know that he belittled women. He treated female students
worse than male students. He called one woman a bitch
at Seven Sirens Brewing Company after she rejected his advances,
and if I remember correctly, he got booted from that
bar for that.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
We don't know of him having many girlfriends. We also
know that in high school there were reports made on
him from fellow female students basically saying that they were
uncomfortable in some way. And again we've tried to find
more information about that. Those files are sealed, and respectfully
we move on. But look, this is somebody who tracks.
(08:18):
He was spending a ton of time online for an
extended period of time, obviously COVID adding to this. But
here he goes off to university and again seems to
have a chip on his shoulders when it comes to
actually dealing with any women at any time.
Speaker 6 (08:34):
Specifically, the Idaho State Police reports about his interactions with
female students at WSU, he was dismissive. He'd said things
like he wouldn't date broken women, and.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
To that end, once he had gotten too university where
he was studying to become a criminology doctor. He was
getting his PhD in criminology, and during that time, students reported,
specifically female students reported that they did not even want
to go to office hours to deal with him on
any level because they felt frankly unsafe, even so far
(09:06):
as to say they would walk to their cars accompanied
by somebody because they were afraid Brian Coburger might start
walking out with them and they wouldn't know how to
get rid of them. Listen, he lacked social cues. We
can cough that up to a lot of things.
Speaker 7 (09:20):
Either.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
He was just always the odd kid who was bullied
and left out of the club and learned to resent
that because look, ultimately, Brian Coberger, by his own admission,
killed four extremely loved and popular students who seemingly had
it all. They had fun lives, they had many friends,
they were going big places, and Brian Coburger didn't like it.
(09:41):
There doesn't seem to be any real known connection between
the Idaho massacre victims and Brian Coburger. Their light was
so bright that he had to dim it himself.
Speaker 6 (09:52):
Like I said before, he in talking with that other
female WSU student she said that he said he would
not date broke it women.
Speaker 7 (10:00):
He idolized women.
Speaker 6 (10:03):
That he held in beautiful standards, right, like the Kayley's
and the Maddies and the Zanas of this world, who
are literally beautiful, right, wouldn't if there was some kind
of defect with you, he didn't want a thing to
do with you. Right, That's kind of the impression I
got from reading those ISP reports. And that's very in
cell white, Okay. And he would say things like what
(10:24):
did he say about procreation?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Like whether there was that handicapped girl, that there was
somebody who was handicapped, you know, air quote, or somebody
who was disabled, and he straight up asked, would you
even consider pro creating because your condition?
Speaker 7 (10:38):
And just think about that? Who says that out loud?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And we know now that many reports were made against
him and that he gave people a really bad feeling.
And I think that's the takeaway Number one. We know
for a fact that Brian Coberger, who seemingly was obsessed
with the notion of crime, he was literally studying what
he has now been convicted of, but he didn't see
to get on with women. He spent a lot of
(11:02):
time by himself isolated and online. And that's I think
the important piece of this. One person could be both
things at the exact same time. Somebody could present very
smart and articulate and clever, as he must have, and
then on the flip of that, you know full well
that there is hate brewing within him, and that hate
(11:22):
turned to murder. And the reason that we're even discussing
this is that we need to better understand where this
dark web can take you and how a person can
actually be radicalized.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
Yeah, and you know, the definition of in cells is
involuntarily sulibate, and I do believe that Brian Coberger was
involuntarily sulibate. Okay, so by definition alone, he is an inceel.
But the in cells that we're talking about congregate online
and they talk to one another and they get deeper
and deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of self
(11:53):
loathing and self pity. And I just don't see Brian
Koberger being online, being able to effectively communicate with other people,
and being radicalized in that manner.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Just because Brian Coberger may not have been
radicalized online doesn't mean he couldn't have picked up this
information about in cells.
Speaker 8 (12:27):
Elsewhere was Brian Coberger's brutal murder of four college roommates
inspired by this monster.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Oll slaughter every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut.
Speaker 8 (12:42):
Elliott Roger murdered six University of California Santa Barbara students
in twenty fourteen with his arsenal of knives, pistols, and
his car as a weapon. Twenty two year old Roger
was an in cell, an involuntary celibate, and as scene
as an icon by other cells.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
You never showed me any mercy, and so I will
show you none.
Speaker 8 (13:05):
Coberger studied Rogers' rampage for his criminology course at the
Sales University in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Here again, sociologist and masculinities expert, doctor Michael Kimmel.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Elliott Rogers is sort of a touchstone figure among in cells.
He felt like he had done everything right. He was
good looking and smart and interesting, and he had a
good personality and all of these things, and yet he
couldn't get a date, and he began to blame women.
He went down that kind of very very dark path
(13:41):
to blaming all women for his problems, and he decided
at some point that he was either going to have
to kill himself and take as many of them with
him as he could. His suicide note was all filled
with his entitlement, like you don't give me what I
want kind of stuff. But he didn't call himself an insul.
He was just angry. He took it out on women.
He blamed women, But in cell culture embraced him as
(14:04):
a kind of Oh that's you know, he did what
we all think about, right, And what he thought of
what he did was he got even. That's I think
a key here is that in cel there may be
a motive in some cases to get even. I don't
just you know, get mad. I get even they hurt me,
(14:25):
I will hurt them.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
At the Sales University, Brian Coberger and his classmates study
the case of Elliott Roger. Roger is the twenty two
year old who in twenty fourteen murdered six people and
injured dozens more near UC Santa Barbara. Some classmates remember
Coburger seeming strangely indifferent to the horror of the rampage.
(14:49):
Roger was later embraced by the in cell community and
That connection has led some to question whether Coberger's studies
of Roger may have played a role in his own crimes.
Here again, Stephanie Leideker in crime analyst Body movin to
break this down.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Brian Coburger participated in learning about Elliott Roger, and by
some accounts, he seemed extremely unphased. So does that mean
he was discounting this in cell ideology or was it
just something embedded in him and he didn't give it
too much thought. We do know that Brian Coberger had
a hard time meeting girls, had multiple women file reports
(15:30):
against him, both in high school and at university.
Speaker 7 (15:33):
This seems to be a pattern in the in cell community.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
I do know they claimed Elliott Roger, so he is
their hero. He is their saint, you know, Saint Elliot,
et cetera, et cetera. His his manifesto included ideologies that
he agreed with. But we don't know if Coburger was
actually inspired by Elliott Rodgers, if he followed them closely
even after learning about him at the sales. Just because
he seemed like unphased by his crimes doesn't really prove anything.
(16:00):
We don't know if he was on any insull websites
like four chan, or like incel I or any of
those radicalization pipeline websites. So even though it's an interesting
theory that he could have been inspired by insel idol
Elliott Rodgers, we just don't have any concrete proof.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I mean, listen, it's in the conversation Brian Coberger his arrest,
this lone wolf. Why would he possibly want to hurt
the lives of people who had so much ahead of
them because he was radicalized potentially online. Now again that's
wildly debated. We are not labeling him an inceel, but
that conversation only continued further once he was arrested in
(16:37):
awaiting trial, once he confessed, and he didn't even have
to allocate, We're left kind of putting our hands in
the air, not knowing the final outcome.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
We as sociologist and masculinities expert doctor Michael Kimmel for
his thoughts on whether Brian Coberger could be considered an
in cell and whether the in cell community might claim
him much like they did with Elliott Roger. He's joined
by KAT Studio's producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
A lot of people have suspected he could be an inceell.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
You know, he didn't have to when he pled guilty,
he didn't have to give an allocution. So people may
never know why he did what he did and were
forced to kind of come up with theories about what
his motive could be. And he was known to be
a sexist. A lot of people think why target for
innocent people he had no connection to. You know, a
lot of people are thinking he had to be an
insul that's why he killed these people, because it doesn't
(17:31):
make sense. You know, why else would it make sense
that he'd target four innocent people, you know, a really
popular guy and then three beautiful girls. What do you
make of this theory that you know, Brian Coberger could
have been an in cell? How do you respond to
this theory that's kind of been floating around for the
past few years.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
It could have nothing to do with being an insult or,
it could have everything to do with it. We don't know,
and in the absence of any kind of information from him,
I take to develop a kind of theory about it.
And there's no evidence that he ever visited any of
their websites, participated in any of their jack rooms, none.
Whatever my feeling about this is that is that within
(18:11):
the culture. Now, let's be really clear about this. Ninety
nine percent of people who might consider themselves in cells
never act on it around women. They go to these
places in the manosphere in some ways, I'll put this
in quotation marks harmlessly to seek support and comradeship and
community with others. But it's they're not going to act
(18:32):
on it. And I don't think there's any reason to
suspect that Brian Koberger acted on those feelings for those reasons.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Do you think in cells will try to claim Brian
Coberger like they did with Elliott Rodgers? They see this
guy who is sexist. Reports a come out that he
treated women horribly, that he had a hard time getting
a girlfriend, that he just kind of seemed like that
in cell type, you know, reclusive, frustrated with women, created
his female students much harder than male students. Just all
kinds of reports like this. Do you think that the
(19:00):
in cell community could see Brian Colberger as their next
Elliott Rodgers?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Or if I were part of the in cell community,
I would be very wary of people assuming that he
was an insult just because he was a man and
he killed women. And he killed young attractive women. It
wasn't just that he killed women, you know, randomly, So
I don't know. I think I would be Remember that
the overwhelming majority of in cels, people who would even
(19:26):
describe themselves as in cels, would never even remotely think
of acting on it like that, never, you know, would
not cross their mind. They're very content to be in
their internet, in their online community, you know, talking to
each other, supporting each other, and basically and supporting each
other with this misguided idea that it's women's fault. But
so if I were in the in cell community, I
would not claim him, especially in the absence of any
(19:48):
evidence that he was one of us. And secondly, I
wouldn't want him to be imposed on us simply because
he was a guy who killed women. So I would
be very wary of it. I don't think that they're
going to embrace him the way that Elliott Roger was
very clear, very you know, very descriptive about is who
he blamed and.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Why and how can we stop in cells? How can
we intervene before someone decides to join a community like this.
Can people who see someone who they think, you know,
could adapt to these ideologies how can they jump in
and stop them from joining this community.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, there's some data that connects a lot of these
different issues because one of the things that psychologists have
found that basically courages resilience among young people is especially
this is for young men. What would predict their resilience,
what would predict their ability to navigate these kinds of
(20:43):
lows in their lives? This the depression, unhappiness, this loneliness,
this feeling like you're not getting what you want. And
two of the things that they that they suggest one
is a good male friend, not a bro, but a friend,
someone you can talk to about your feeling someone you
can talk to who validates you that you you know,
you know, I get you, bro, you're still you know
(21:05):
you're you're really a man and it's okay, it's you'll
be fine, it'll happen. And also a good female friend.
I would be willing to suggest that large numbers of
in cels have very few female friends who they can
really talk to about their feelings. The world that they
live in is largely a fantasy about what women's lives
(21:25):
are like, that all these women are so hot and
they're so sexy, and they're so available, but just not
for me. I think that's pretty much a fantasy. And
they don't really get to know girls as friends and
and other guys as real friends. So real contact, real
friendship may be a one of the therapeutic antidote to
(21:47):
the kind of despair and loneliness that many in cells feel.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Here again. Stephanie Leiedeger and crime analyst Body Movin.
Speaker 7 (22:12):
I've talked about this a lot.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
I've talked about why we continue to look for explanations
and the behavior of Brian Coberger because I believe it's
too scary to face reality. And the reality is, he's
the literal boogeyman. Okay, we can't control him, we can't
put him in a category.
Speaker 7 (22:30):
Right.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
If we can put him in a category like say Incel,
then we can explain it and we can monitor that
and we can stay on top of it and stay safe. Right,
Brian Coberger isn't fitting any of these categories we're trying
to put him in, and that's scary. He's the literal boogeyman.
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And by the way, without having this conversation in a
meaningful way. We don't know what to look for and
how to prevent another Elliott Roger or another Brian Coburger
from causing mass destruction. Yet again, and listen, not all
white men are murderers in.
Speaker 7 (23:01):
Serial killers, obviously.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
However, the in cell community is really it's the young
white man who's spending way too much time online and
they're getting radicalized online without anybody knowing. Coburger sure does
check a lout of the right boxes, and yeah, for
sure there are some that he does not, But again
we have to be looking at what could be a
(23:24):
very scary reality. The new Boogeyman is the young, disenfranchised
white boy living at home with add a job, with
too much time on his hands. The question of whether
Brian Coberger was an in cel still looms large. Some
believe his treatment of women and his obsession with power
(23:45):
and control fit the pattern, Yet without any direct evidence
that he identified with the community, were left with a
haunting void, still wondering why he committed the brutal murders
of Madison, Mogen, Callie Gonzalvez, Xanna Kern, and Ethan Chapin.
To learn more about the in cell movement, check out
our new podcast in Cells on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
(24:08):
podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and join us
next week, when Idaho State Police Detective Hugh Powell shares
an inside look at what it was like to investigate
one of the most shocking mass murders in recent memory.
More on that next time. For more information on the
(24:28):
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leideker,
Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and
sound design by Jeff Tooi music by Jared Aston. The
Idaho Masacre is a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio.
(24:52):
For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
He spent a lot of time by himself, isolated and online.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Elliott Rogers, he was good looking, and smart and interesting,
he had a good personality and all of these things,
and yet he couldn't get a date. And he decided
at some point to blaming all women for his problems.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode seven, The in Cell Theory
Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideker,
Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. On July twenty third, twenty
(00:49):
twenty five, Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life
sentences for the brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Killy Gonsalvez,
Xana Kernodle, and eth Than Shapin. For many, his guilty
plea felt like a long awaited end to a nightmare
chapter in Moscow, Idaho. But for others the closure was bittersweet.
(01:13):
They still carry unanswered questions and anger. One of the
most striking omissions was that Brian Coberger was never required
to explain himself. Prosecutor Bill Thompson did not demand an allocution,
meaning Coburger never stood in court and stated why he
committed these unspeakable crimes. He offered no insight, no apology,
(01:36):
and no explanation. And so the question of why still
looms large. What could have driven him to do something
so heinous? What was the motive? One theory that is
circulated is that Brian Coberger may have been an insult
an involuntary celibate, that someone who feels rejected, especially by women,
(01:59):
and and who sometimes channels that rejection into rage and violence.
Could Coberger have targeted one of the young women he
murdered because of this mindset? Is there real weight to
this theory or is it a label that's too easily applied?
And perhaps the biggest question of all, what does it
(02:20):
actually mean to be an in cel? Dell bunpack these questions.
We turned to sociologist doctor Michael Kimmel. He's a leading
expert on men's studies and masculinities. He joins us to
explain what the in cell community is, what it isn't,
and how it fits into the larger conversation around Brian Coberger.
(02:42):
He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
If you can just tell me a little bit about
your career and your background.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
How did you find kind of your niche in gender studies?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, my PhD is in sociology, and I was a
sociology professor for many years, and swirling around the academy
was you know, feminism was women's studies, and it was just,
you know, it was too compelling and too important, I
think to ignore. Then I realized early on that there
really weren't very good studies research done on men as men.
(03:17):
You know, there was a lot of stuff happening for
people which by which they interviewed men, and then there
were work on women, but there wasn't anything that really
addressed masculinity or gender and how it affected men. So
in early nineteen ninety I decided I was going to
write a history of the idea of masculinity in America,
which had never been written. That was my first book,
(03:37):
Man Who in America? And then from then I've worked
on young men ages sixteen to twenty six in a
book called Guyland, And most recently my work has been
on what I called angry white men. Why are white
men so angry? Why are they so resentful? Why do
they feel like they're such victims? My book angry white
Men came out in twenty thirteen, and the word in
(03:58):
cell hadn't been invented it.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
What is the manosphere for people who don't know or
never heard of it before?
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Can you tell me exactly what that is?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, the manosphere is a general term for that part
of the Internet that has been appropriated by and colonized
by a large number of men who use it as
a platform for exploring some things that are you know,
good things like how do you be a good father?
To a place where they can air their grievances about
(04:30):
their own victimization. The manosphere tends to be very white,
somewhat middle and working class, and it tends to be
on the whole angry. Now the manosphere in general begins,
I think the real the beginning of the manosphere as
a place where men will come to air these kinds
of grievances begin with what was called gamergate in the
(04:52):
mid to late nineteen nineties. And Gamergate was basically an
effort by young male gamers to keep women out of
the gaming environment because there were suddenly all of these
multiplayer games. They were these online games, people were gaming live,
and the guys thought that this was like part of
their life. And when all these girls started, you know,
(05:14):
becoming gamers, they really resented it. They felt it was
like an invasion of their space. So the Man of
Sphere was an attempt to sort of say, Okay, we're
gonna build border boundaries. What the word in cell stands for?
Involuntary celibacy in cell, and it means that you haven't
had a date, you haven't had sex in perhaps a
(05:36):
long time or ever. And that's not by your choice.
It's not like you're saving it for marriage. It's not
like you are waiting for miss right. You want to
get laid and you can't. Now, whose fault is that?
When you listen to guys who claim to be in cells,
it's not their fault, it's the fault of women.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Here.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
You have all these women, thanks to feminism, thanks to
women's liberation, all these girls wearing really tight clothes, really hot,
really beautiful, throwing it out there and just inviting you
to come on to them, and then they turn you down.
Whose fault is that? It's their fault? Because you see,
men don't see. So the involuntary celibacy is I want,
(06:20):
I'm not getting Whose fault is that and they blame
the women. Women are you know, sexually aegentic. They have
their own voice, they know what they want. They just
don't want it with me, and clearly that's their fault.
I'm plenty nice, good looking, I dress well, I'm trying
really hard, you know, and they still turn me down.
What's wrong with them? Now? Once upon a time you
(06:42):
would answer that question not with what's wrong with them,
but what's wrong with me? One of the great things
about the Internet is it provides instant community for people
who feel isolated, lonely, etc. And so you might have been,
you know, just sat in your bedroom and you know,
be grumpy. But with the Internet, there are other guys going, yeah,
(07:03):
I get you, bro, I completely understand man, I know
what you're feeling. That that happened to me too, and
you have a bond. You have a community of self
perceived victims.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
One of the most persistent questions that has surfaced is
whether or not Brian Koeberger could have been an inceel.
Does his background and behavior fit the profile of someone
drawn to this community, and if so, what would that
mean about his mindset, his motivations, and the way he
saw the world. To help us break this down here
(07:35):
Stephanie Leidecker, joined by crime analyst Body Movin.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
We know that he belittled women. He treated female students
worse than male students. He called one woman a bitch
at Seven Sirens Brewing Company after she rejected his advances,
and if I remember correctly, he got booted from that
bar for that.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
We don't know of him having many girlfriends. We also
know that in high school there were reports made on
him from fellow female students basically saying that they were
uncomfortable in some way. And again we've tried to find
more information about that. Those files are sealed, and respectfully
we move on. But look, this is somebody who tracks.
(08:18):
He was spending a ton of time online for an
extended period of time, obviously COVID adding to this. But
here he goes off to university and again seems to
have a chip on his shoulders when it comes to
actually dealing with any women at any time.
Speaker 6 (08:34):
Specifically, the Idaho State Police reports about his interactions with
female students at WSU, he was dismissive. He'd said things
like he wouldn't date broken women, and.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
To that end, once he had gotten too university where
he was studying to become a criminology doctor. He was
getting his PhD in criminology, and during that time, students reported,
specifically female students reported that they did not even want
to go to office hours to deal with him on
any level because they felt frankly unsafe, even so far
(09:06):
as to say they would walk to their cars accompanied
by somebody because they were afraid Brian Coburger might start
walking out with them and they wouldn't know how to
get rid of them. Listen, he lacked social cues. We
can cough that up to a lot of things.
Speaker 7 (09:20):
Either.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
He was just always the odd kid who was bullied
and left out of the club and learned to resent
that because look, ultimately, Brian Coberger, by his own admission,
killed four extremely loved and popular students who seemingly had
it all. They had fun lives, they had many friends,
they were going big places, and Brian Coburger didn't like it.
(09:41):
There doesn't seem to be any real known connection between
the Idaho massacre victims and Brian Coburger. Their light was
so bright that he had to dim it himself.
Speaker 6 (09:52):
Like I said before, he in talking with that other
female WSU student she said that he said he would
not date broke it women.
Speaker 7 (10:00):
He idolized women.
Speaker 6 (10:03):
That he held in beautiful standards, right, like the Kayley's
and the Maddies and the Zanas of this world, who
are literally beautiful, right, wouldn't if there was some kind
of defect with you, he didn't want a thing to
do with you. Right, That's kind of the impression I
got from reading those ISP reports. And that's very in
cell white, Okay. And he would say things like what
(10:24):
did he say about procreation?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Like whether there was that handicapped girl, that there was
somebody who was handicapped, you know, air quote, or somebody
who was disabled, and he straight up asked, would you
even consider pro creating because your condition?
Speaker 7 (10:38):
And just think about that? Who says that out loud?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And we know now that many reports were made against
him and that he gave people a really bad feeling.
And I think that's the takeaway Number one. We know
for a fact that Brian Coberger, who seemingly was obsessed
with the notion of crime, he was literally studying what
he has now been convicted of, but he didn't see
to get on with women. He spent a lot of
(11:02):
time by himself isolated and online. And that's I think
the important piece of this. One person could be both
things at the exact same time. Somebody could present very
smart and articulate and clever, as he must have, and
then on the flip of that, you know full well
that there is hate brewing within him, and that hate
(11:22):
turned to murder. And the reason that we're even discussing
this is that we need to better understand where this
dark web can take you and how a person can
actually be radicalized.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
Yeah, and you know, the definition of in cells is
involuntarily sulibate, and I do believe that Brian Coberger was
involuntarily sulibate. Okay, so by definition alone, he is an inceel.
But the in cells that we're talking about congregate online
and they talk to one another and they get deeper
and deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of self
(11:53):
loathing and self pity. And I just don't see Brian
Koberger being online, being able to effectively communicate with other people,
and being radicalized in that manner.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Just because Brian Coberger may not have been
radicalized online doesn't mean he couldn't have picked up this
information about in cells.
Speaker 8 (12:27):
Elsewhere was Brian Coberger's brutal murder of four college roommates
inspired by this monster.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Oll slaughter every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut.
Speaker 8 (12:42):
Elliott Roger murdered six University of California Santa Barbara students
in twenty fourteen with his arsenal of knives, pistols, and
his car as a weapon. Twenty two year old Roger
was an in cell, an involuntary celibate, and as scene
as an icon by other cells.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
You never showed me any mercy, and so I will
show you none.
Speaker 8 (13:05):
Coberger studied Rogers' rampage for his criminology course at the
Sales University in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Here again, sociologist and masculinities expert, doctor Michael Kimmel.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Elliott Rogers is sort of a touchstone figure among in cells.
He felt like he had done everything right. He was
good looking and smart and interesting, and he had a
good personality and all of these things, and yet he
couldn't get a date, and he began to blame women.
He went down that kind of very very dark path
(13:41):
to blaming all women for his problems, and he decided
at some point that he was either going to have
to kill himself and take as many of them with
him as he could. His suicide note was all filled
with his entitlement, like you don't give me what I
want kind of stuff. But he didn't call himself an insul.
He was just angry. He took it out on women.
He blamed women, But in cell culture embraced him as
(14:04):
a kind of Oh that's you know, he did what
we all think about, right, And what he thought of
what he did was he got even. That's I think
a key here is that in cel there may be
a motive in some cases to get even. I don't
just you know, get mad. I get even they hurt me,
(14:25):
I will hurt them.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
At the Sales University, Brian Coberger and his classmates study
the case of Elliott Roger. Roger is the twenty two
year old who in twenty fourteen murdered six people and
injured dozens more near UC Santa Barbara. Some classmates remember
Coburger seeming strangely indifferent to the horror of the rampage.
(14:49):
Roger was later embraced by the in cell community and
That connection has led some to question whether Coberger's studies
of Roger may have played a role in his own crimes.
Here again, Stephanie Leideker in crime analyst Body movin to
break this down.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Brian Coburger participated in learning about Elliott Roger, and by
some accounts, he seemed extremely unphased. So does that mean
he was discounting this in cell ideology or was it
just something embedded in him and he didn't give it
too much thought. We do know that Brian Coberger had
a hard time meeting girls, had multiple women file reports
(15:30):
against him, both in high school and at university.
Speaker 7 (15:33):
This seems to be a pattern in the in cell community.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
I do know they claimed Elliott Roger, so he is
their hero. He is their saint, you know, Saint Elliot,
et cetera, et cetera. His his manifesto included ideologies that
he agreed with. But we don't know if Coburger was
actually inspired by Elliott Rodgers, if he followed them closely
even after learning about him at the sales. Just because
he seemed like unphased by his crimes doesn't really prove anything.
(16:00):
We don't know if he was on any insull websites
like four chan, or like incel I or any of
those radicalization pipeline websites. So even though it's an interesting
theory that he could have been inspired by insel idol
Elliott Rodgers, we just don't have any concrete proof.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I mean, listen, it's in the conversation Brian Coberger his arrest,
this lone wolf. Why would he possibly want to hurt
the lives of people who had so much ahead of
them because he was radicalized potentially online. Now again that's
wildly debated. We are not labeling him an inceel, but
that conversation only continued further once he was arrested in
(16:37):
awaiting trial, once he confessed, and he didn't even have
to allocate, We're left kind of putting our hands in
the air, not knowing the final outcome.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
We as sociologist and masculinities expert doctor Michael Kimmel for
his thoughts on whether Brian Coberger could be considered an
in cell and whether the in cell community might claim
him much like they did with Elliott Roger. He's joined
by KAT Studio's producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
A lot of people have suspected he could be an inceell.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
You know, he didn't have to when he pled guilty,
he didn't have to give an allocution. So people may
never know why he did what he did and were
forced to kind of come up with theories about what
his motive could be. And he was known to be
a sexist. A lot of people think why target for
innocent people he had no connection to. You know, a
lot of people are thinking he had to be an
insul that's why he killed these people, because it doesn't
(17:31):
make sense. You know, why else would it make sense
that he'd target four innocent people, you know, a really
popular guy and then three beautiful girls. What do you
make of this theory that you know, Brian Coberger could
have been an in cell? How do you respond to
this theory that's kind of been floating around for the
past few years.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
It could have nothing to do with being an insult or,
it could have everything to do with it. We don't know,
and in the absence of any kind of information from him,
I take to develop a kind of theory about it.
And there's no evidence that he ever visited any of
their websites, participated in any of their jack rooms, none.
Whatever my feeling about this is that is that within
(18:11):
the culture. Now, let's be really clear about this. Ninety
nine percent of people who might consider themselves in cells
never act on it around women. They go to these
places in the manosphere in some ways, I'll put this
in quotation marks harmlessly to seek support and comradeship and
community with others. But it's they're not going to act
(18:32):
on it. And I don't think there's any reason to
suspect that Brian Koberger acted on those feelings for those reasons.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Do you think in cells will try to claim Brian
Coberger like they did with Elliott Rodgers? They see this
guy who is sexist. Reports a come out that he
treated women horribly, that he had a hard time getting
a girlfriend, that he just kind of seemed like that
in cell type, you know, reclusive, frustrated with women, created
his female students much harder than male students. Just all
kinds of reports like this. Do you think that the
(19:00):
in cell community could see Brian Colberger as their next
Elliott Rodgers?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Or if I were part of the in cell community,
I would be very wary of people assuming that he
was an insult just because he was a man and
he killed women. And he killed young attractive women. It
wasn't just that he killed women, you know, randomly, So
I don't know. I think I would be Remember that
the overwhelming majority of in cels, people who would even
(19:26):
describe themselves as in cels, would never even remotely think
of acting on it like that, never, you know, would
not cross their mind. They're very content to be in
their internet, in their online community, you know, talking to
each other, supporting each other, and basically and supporting each
other with this misguided idea that it's women's fault. But
so if I were in the in cell community, I
would not claim him, especially in the absence of any
(19:48):
evidence that he was one of us. And secondly, I
wouldn't want him to be imposed on us simply because
he was a guy who killed women. So I would
be very wary of it. I don't think that they're
going to embrace him the way that Elliott Roger was
very clear, very you know, very descriptive about is who
he blamed and.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Why and how can we stop in cells? How can
we intervene before someone decides to join a community like this.
Can people who see someone who they think, you know,
could adapt to these ideologies how can they jump in
and stop them from joining this community.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, there's some data that connects a lot of these
different issues because one of the things that psychologists have
found that basically courages resilience among young people is especially
this is for young men. What would predict their resilience,
what would predict their ability to navigate these kinds of
(20:43):
lows in their lives? This the depression, unhappiness, this loneliness,
this feeling like you're not getting what you want. And
two of the things that they that they suggest one
is a good male friend, not a bro, but a friend,
someone you can talk to about your feeling someone you
can talk to who validates you that you you know,
you know, I get you, bro, you're still you know
(21:05):
you're you're really a man and it's okay, it's you'll
be fine, it'll happen. And also a good female friend.
I would be willing to suggest that large numbers of
in cels have very few female friends who they can
really talk to about their feelings. The world that they
live in is largely a fantasy about what women's lives
(21:25):
are like, that all these women are so hot and
they're so sexy, and they're so available, but just not
for me. I think that's pretty much a fantasy. And
they don't really get to know girls as friends and
and other guys as real friends. So real contact, real
friendship may be a one of the therapeutic antidote to
(21:47):
the kind of despair and loneliness that many in cells feel.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Here again. Stephanie Leiedeger and crime analyst Body Movin.
Speaker 7 (22:12):
I've talked about this a lot.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
I've talked about why we continue to look for explanations
and the behavior of Brian Coberger because I believe it's
too scary to face reality. And the reality is, he's
the literal boogeyman. Okay, we can't control him, we can't
put him in a category.
Speaker 7 (22:30):
Right.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
If we can put him in a category like say Incel,
then we can explain it and we can monitor that
and we can stay on top of it and stay safe. Right,
Brian Coberger isn't fitting any of these categories we're trying
to put him in, and that's scary. He's the literal boogeyman.
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And by the way, without having this conversation in a
meaningful way. We don't know what to look for and
how to prevent another Elliott Roger or another Brian Coburger
from causing mass destruction. Yet again, and listen, not all
white men are murderers in.
Speaker 7 (23:01):
Serial killers, obviously.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
However, the in cell community is really it's the young
white man who's spending way too much time online and
they're getting radicalized online without anybody knowing. Coburger sure does
check a lout of the right boxes, and yeah, for
sure there are some that he does not, But again
we have to be looking at what could be a
(23:24):
very scary reality. The new Boogeyman is the young, disenfranchised
white boy living at home with add a job, with
too much time on his hands. The question of whether
Brian Coberger was an in cel still looms large. Some
believe his treatment of women and his obsession with power
(23:45):
and control fit the pattern, Yet without any direct evidence
that he identified with the community, were left with a
haunting void, still wondering why he committed the brutal murders
of Madison, Mogen, Callie Gonzalvez, Xanna Kern, and Ethan Chapin.
To learn more about the in cell movement, check out
our new podcast in Cells on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
(24:08):
podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and join us
next week, when Idaho State Police Detective Hugh Powell shares
an inside look at what it was like to investigate
one of the most shocking mass murders in recent memory.
More on that next time. For more information on the
(24:28):
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leideker,
Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and
sound design by Jeff Tooi music by Jared Aston. The
Idaho Masacre is a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio.
(24:52):
For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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