Jenkins and Jonez - Hanif Abdurraqib On His Latest Bestseller, Watching LeBron James Blow Up

New York Times bestselling author joins the show again to discuss his new book ‘There’s Always This Year’ (5:00), watching LeBron as a kid in Ohio, the Kendrick Lamar - J Cole beef (48:00), Timberwolves basketball (61:00), and more. #volume

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(01:15):
terms and responsible gaming resources. Welcome to Jenkison Jones on
the Volume podcast Network. It is Saturday, April sixth, and
we are very excited to be joined by frequent guest
friend of the pod nif Abduah Kieb whose new book

(01:36):
There's Always This Year on basketball and ascension to the
New York Times bestseller It is brilliant.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
All three of us were very happy to.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Get an advanced reader copy and get to check it out.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
Anif, thanks for hopping on the show.

Speaker 5 (01:48):
We really appreciate you man as always, Man, thanks for
having me. It's a real pleasure. This is like a
real exciting thing for me. You know, when I was
like nudging my tr people like I gotta get back
on Jankings Jones, I gotta get back on Jenks the Jones.
So I'm glad to be here for real.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
They were dragging their feet a little bit. I was like,
I'm ab to hoping on and eaves the ends. We
gotta get this lined up, Tyler, I'm gonna have to
go over the business heads here doing.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
Honey.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
My first question about the book is because I'm just
curious about your process, Like it's set around the around,
not about, but around the Bron Calves Championship. How much
How long has this book in this format kind of
been rattling around in your head and what crystallized into

(02:40):
the decision to tell this story and in this.

Speaker 5 (02:43):
Way the book itself has been in my head since
twenty eighteen. But you know what, Like in twenty eighteen,
I told myself, you know, Bron and I are around
the same age up in Ohio at the same time,
two different Ohios. It's still Ohio, and we were kind
of witnessed to the same movements of Ohio and all that.
And so in twenty and I had this thought, like
I want to write a book about Ohio and the

(03:03):
era of Lebron James. But that actually doesn't mean anything,
you know what I mean? Like, that's not a it's
not like a functional or material idea. It's just a
thought and so I kind of sat on it for
a while, and then I started to think about this
idea of immortality which sometimes gets projected upon Lebron James
because he is still playing at like a you know,

(03:23):
like that shit he did the other night against a Nett.
So I was like, what the fuck is? You know
what I mean? Like it was another one with moments
where I was like, this nigga could play forever, you know,
he just wonder that motherfucker. And as much as I
was trying to operate against this idea of the immortality
of like who would want to live forever? I also
began to realize, like, within myself, I'm at a point

(03:43):
in my life where I would like to live for
longer than I thought I would want to when I
was like twenty, right, And so then the book took
on some kind of material shit that just wasn't like
Ohio basketball Lebron. It had an actual engine to it
in the shape and form of the book. You know,
I went into this book understand that I could if
I wanted to write they Can't Kill Until They Kill

(04:04):
Us Part two, three, four, five, six, and people would
buy it. Random House to be cool with it, but
I wanted to make a book that looked like nothing
that ever seen before. You know, I was kind of like,
what will it take for me to make something that
just doesn't exist in the form and shape of the book,
the structure of the book, this concept of the book's
major thesis point being around beginning with something and watching
it slowly diminish. It made sense for me to have

(04:26):
a countdown clock in a way, and I tested it
out in the pregame. You know. I wrote the first
draft of the pregame first, and it was like, it
was just if this shit don't work, then I'll just
aband it and write a normal ass book. But it
felt good, like you know what I mean, like it
kind of you I got into a rhythm, much like
my actual basketball game, where you know, the first the
first like ten pages, I was like, this shit is
not working, and then I kind of hit a rhythm,
you know, I started hitting them, hitting them and hit them.

(04:47):
So yeah, it kind of came alive in that way.
But I really wanted to make something that didn't look
like anything else in the world. What's the block meant
to be disruptive? Were it disruptive to write that way? No?

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Was it meant because I know at times you put
it in like in between a sentence, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 5 (05:06):
Was it meant to be done that way? For sure?
Yeah it was. It was intentional. So like I was
like fucking around with syntax in sound and line breaks
so that people could would have to kind of hop
over it if they wanted to. I wanted to make
it feel in some ways like a basketball game can feel.
At times, the pace can feel very frantic, and there's
sometimes like the last three minutes of the game taken hour,
you know what I mean. And so there's parts of

(05:27):
the book that feels slower than they're supposed to feel,
I think because of not just the countdown clock, but
all those longer stretches. What I'm trying to do with
language and pace and storytelling stretches out the time to
make it feel even longer than it actually is. And
then sometimes the pace is really quick. The pace is
like five words you're moving, five words you're moving, But
that is supposed to mirror the feeling of a basketball game.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, it's you know, like you said, you wanted to
write something in a way that had never been written before.
You for sure did that I want to kind of
dive in on the title a bit because I came
into reading the title and you know, there's always this
year on basketball and ascension, and I thought, you know,
beautiful fucking title, right. I did not know it was
going to be so literal, right, Like, I didn't know

(06:08):
ascension was going to be such a integral part of
the book. And what I mean by that is, you know,
you have mentioned, you know, ascension is such a multi
layered thing. It's an abstract thing, it's a concrete thing,
it's a literal thing, it's a figurative thing. You talked
about it in a literal sense, like when you mentioned
Michael Jordan's dunk contest his rookie year, one of the
first moments where he really like infiltrated the pop culture zeitgeist,

(06:31):
became bigger than a basketball player. When you were like,
he left the free throw line and he landed. When
he landed, he had created a whole new world for himself,
and how incredible that must have felt. And you talked
about how when Lebron came to Columbus and played Brookhaven
and Drew Lavender there where you were like, we all
know Lebron is the one we all know he's going
to ascend to unbelievable heights. But us Columbus kids, we

(06:52):
can our good can be just as good as anyone's
good on any given night, right, And that was kind
of the theme there, And so you know, I'm just wondering,
like what what was the light bulb that kind of
went off when you said that, you know, you wanted
to kind of have ascension be like a theme here,
because you also mentioned that, you know, a theme of
it is kind of this thing that's diminishing, you know,
with with with the taking clock, and it feels like,

(07:14):
you know, once once you said that, a light bulb
kind of went off for me where you were where
a common theme is in this book is like favoring fair.
There are some people who are just destined, you know,
to a sin, and there's some of us who, no
matter how hard we try, we're just not going to
you know, the their circumstances that are going to prevent that.
So I'm just curious on like, like what was the
light bulb or the aha moment that went off that

(07:34):
made you want to incorporate that.

Speaker 5 (07:36):
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about the guys. I mean,
we all have these these folks from our hoods or
whatever who quote unquote didn't make it right or didn't
make it in the material sense that they didn't make
the league or they didn't release a platinum record, that
type shit. But my thought about ascension was sometimes ascension
is not only on an upward trajectory. It is anything
that takes you from the place you were to another

(07:58):
place where you did not think you could go, even
if that other place is like mythological. And so I
was thinking a lot about Estebon Weaver. I don't know
if y'all know Estebon Weaver or even know the name,
but he was like yeah for us yo book for sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean I feel like now people might know. But
in Central Ohio he was like Jordan, you know, like
he was like yeah, him and Kenny Gregory there was like,
you know, they both were kind of Michael Jordan's in

(08:19):
a way. And an interesting thing about that era of
Central Ohio basketball was like Kenny Gregory was truly like
Michael Jordan. I mean, this motherfuck it was like six
six forty whatever inch vertical, you know, Super Superstar went
to Kansas to play. Estebon Weaver was like the number
one ninth grader in the country and then kind of
went on a different route and never finished after high school.

(08:41):
Just after Independence lost in the state turn, they didn't
even finish high school. But the other player who was
playing in Central Ohio at that point was Michael Redd.
And Michael Redd was seen as a dude who was
kind of like, you know, he went to He wasn't
as highly recruited. He went to Ohio State. People didn't think,
you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one of those
things where it's like, well, Michael Redd is kind of like,

(09:01):
you know, Kenny's the guy who's going to be the
All Star at the NBA. Michael Red will be fine.
But it didn't shake out. You know. Kenny was like
a six to six power forward and played well at Kansas,
was like All League at Cancel, all big twelve, but
was undersized. Right. The thing is, if you are someone
like Esteban or like Kenny, if you go out on
a basketball court in Columbus right now, you'll find kids

(09:22):
who weren't even alive when Esteban and Kenny were playing.
But they revere those names. They know those names. And
they respect those names. To me, that's making it like
if your name rings out in the city where you
made your name, if your name rings out through generations.
That is a type of assent. That's the type of
making it that isn't exactly tied to being in the league.
Although of course I'm sure some of these guys would

(09:43):
love MBA money or whatever, you know what I mean,
like the NBA pension. I'm sure they wouldn't mind that.
But there's a way to redefine making it that I
think plays into this role of expanding the definition of
what a cent is.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I for sure
wanted to read the passes that you wrote on that,
you know, for the listeners to kind of give them
an idea here.

Speaker 5 (10:01):
So okay.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
The other thing about mythology is that there is no
blueprint for what to make of an entire life. When
you're a legend by twelve thirteen years old, when you
are good enough at something anything that someone might throw
some money at. You might slip a white envelope with
some bills into your back pocket during a hug and
tell you to get something nice for your mom's put.

Speaker 5 (10:20):
A little food on the table.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
It is more frightening when everything said about you is true,
when you are as good as the street said you were,
or even better when you are a child but also
not a child, also a phenom also impossible to fathom.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
Yes, I swear to you.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Before Lebron James, we had Estebon Weaver right on the
east side of Columbus, and so it takes a little
bit more to impress us. We built all the myths already,
and we've seen someone breeze past them and then vanish.
What else is there to do but walk away while
the scent of magic still hangs over you, at least
for a little bit more, walk away while your president
is already being talked about like a distant past, one
that no one would believe even if you told it
to them yourself. And you know, like you mentioned, that

(10:55):
was a passes that hit me really hard because like
you mentioned, you know, success doesn't necessarily have to be
making it big, making it pro Success is when you
have like immortalized yourself and the way that you've mentioned,
when you become a legend, you know in your city
or in your state.

Speaker 5 (11:10):
So yeah, that for sure hit me hard. There thank
you man, and no doubt like some of the ways
I was thinking, this isn't about ball, but I was
thinking about the other day the first time, and I
feel like a lot of us were all of the
same era or at least similar ages. First time I
heard about fifty cent, like it wasn't even about as
music really, or I heard maybe power of the Dollar
the mixtape, But mostly what you heard is like this

(11:31):
monthfuckers survive getting shot like ninety times. You know what
I mean? Is that before And He's right, that was
like the secondary and so by the time we got
introduced to him, there was like a mythology that entered
the room before he did. And to me, that's actually
in some ways more interesting than the person itself, right,
Like if you can survive off of the mythology or
the myth that is made out of out of your living,

(11:53):
that is kind of interesting, maybe more interesting than what
you actually produce.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
And also you speak to like how difficult like that
expectations are being in ninth grade and being you know,
deemed the king or you know what I mean, and
making it and still not letting that crush you.

Speaker 5 (12:09):
You know, maybe you don't make it.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
To the league or whatever, but you still survive it.
I think that's interesting. But anyway, like I told you
before we got hopped on, like reading this has been, like,
you know, really emotional, bro. Like you know, there are
times when I put the book down, like you know,
because of like what you said has been so profound,
you know, and I just got to like walk away.
Or there's times where like it brings about things that

(12:32):
maybe I'm like hidden in the recesses of my mind
and don't want to think about and have to think
about in a moment, you know what I mean. And
like one of those things is how you talk about
like Columbus and how like it's there's a lot of
sadness there, but it's also beauty there. And like, you know,
my favorite thing about me is I'm from Saint Louis, GI,
you know what I mean. Like it's my favorite city
and I miss it every fucking day. But it's also

(12:54):
the city where like my existence was the most difficult.
How have you reconciled with that? Maybe I'm projecting being
but it seems like it's, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:05):
That's real. I think you like you earn you earn,
or at least I have earned a renewed relationship with
the city because I've had to fight through it, you know,
I had to fight my way through survival in it.
And I think also in my case, like when you
don't have a house to go to, when you are
like straight up living on the streets of a city,
the city feels like yours in a way that it

(13:27):
doesn't perhaps if you're protective from the literal elements of
it by being sheltered. Now I'm not saying like everyone
who is unhoused has a joyful outlook on the places
they live. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that for
me because you have quote unquote nowhere to go. You
have everywhere to go, and that means the city by definition,
the out the layout of it, a landscape of or

(13:49):
particularly at night, like I remember sometimes it's like wandering
at night because I couldn't go to like the library
or wherever else I can get, like to sheltered during
the day. At night and at night, nobody's fucking with
you, you know, I mean, you could just straight up wander.
I remember, just like walking around the city and feeling
like this city feels more like mine now than it
ever has before. And through both that awareness and then

(14:10):
fighting to say, even with knowing that this city feels
more like mine than ever before, it certainly isn't and
I have to get out of this space I'm in.
It feels like it's earned. I've earned some real affection
for it, having a fight through it. I've gotten to
see it from many need different angles, and I think now,
especially seeing it from the you know, my life is
definitely not what it was, and my life in Columbus

(14:31):
is definitely not what it was, and I think I
have to have gratitude for that. By saying like I've
seen every angle of this city, and by seeing every
angle of it, I think I love it more. I've
perhaps been at my worst in this city. In the city,
I think I've seen it hopefully at its worst, though
it certainly can't get worse than it is, and I
think my desire, both for myself and for the city

(14:52):
is to fight away from the potential for it being
worse than me going back to where I was.

Speaker 4 (14:58):
It's interesting.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
It is in so many ways like it's a book
about being from somewhere right and Tyler, I'm from Long Beach.
Tyler's from Richmond, we're both in our hometown still, and
I know we both had opportunities or thoughts of going
other places, and where we've chosen to be where we are.
John professionally, I think was in a place where he
sort of didn't really necessarily even have a choice, you

(15:20):
know that that he's ended up in LA. But what
you hit on that was what really I was walking
around thinking about was that feeling of like like if
I were in Chicago, I would not like gentrification, but
it would not bother me to the extent that watching
stuff like that happen to my places or to my

(15:43):
friend's house bothers me. And I think like you did
a great job of balancing, you know, like there's an
Onion headline that's like, you know, everyone's making fun of
the happy, fulfilled person who still lives in their hometown
or whatever, because it's like it's a it's such a
like a stereotypical thing. But there is this balance, And
I don't know that I've read anyone hit that balance.

(16:04):
Because my wife and my wife from Long Beach, wo
we went to high school together at Long Beach Polly And,
which is where she teaches, and like we've seen so
much change, and that change hurts us in like a
different way. And you fighting for things to stay good
for kids, fighting for stuff, it's you're more invested in it.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
And I think about that.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
A lot about like if we just went somewhere else,
we could still fight for those things, but maybe I'd
be able to like sleep at night on a day
where we lost.

Speaker 5 (16:31):
You know what I mean different? The stakes are different, right.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
But we always come back to. I think where you
came back to, which is like like our version of you.
You you know, you mentioned that you moved You actually
moved out of out of your hometown for a little bit.
Our version that was after we got married, we took
a road trip around the country looking for a place
to live.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
Basically, we got married where twenty three and every.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
Pros list we made was like, we just like Memphis
because of what reminds us about Long Beach. We just
like locally because their reminds us, well, you know, so
like what are we fucking doing? Like it's cheaper to
just stay here, But I don't know, I'm curious for
I think I read an interview with you where you
were talking about how your relationship to the hometown has
changed even from what's in the book about we're sort
of the same way. I run a local sports website

(17:13):
that's very myth making for our local kids, Like we're
sort of boosters of Long Beach and the older we get.
I guess it feels like we're less that and it's
more like someone's handed you the responsibility of fighting for
stuff and hurting and trying to figure it out. I'm
curious for how your relationship to Columbus has changed, maybe
even since you wrote the book.

Speaker 5 (17:33):
I guess, yeah, I mean it's different. I mean the
I'm having I'm currently in the midst of like a
real you know, I didn't tot her my last book.
We did it all virtual and twenty twenty one when
Little Devil in America came out, and my life kind
of changed then, but I wasn't aware of how it
was changing to the outside world until like now, I
feel like I've been The last two weeks has been
a real like uh, the light, but it's been a

(17:56):
kind of like fucked up realization of like, oh, my
life is different now because in Columbus I feels kind
of insulated in a way from that because people here
like they don't they love me? But not for what
I make, you know what I mean? So, like, the
book came out about a week and a half ago, Tuesday,
the twenty sixth of March, and that day, that Monday,

(18:18):
I was in Columbus. Monday of twenty fifth, I was
in Columbus because the release party was in Columbus at night,
and I was at my barber. My barber just been
my barber for like seven years. They talk about everything.
I was at my barber getting a cut on Monday
the twenty fifth, but as I got up to get out,
he was like, yo, man, you got anything going on tonight?
And I was like, I mean, yeah, man, you know,
a little that little thing popping off, No big deal.

(18:39):
And then I was at the bakery. I've been going
to this bakery I've been going to since I moved
home in twenty seventeen. And as I was getting stuff
to get out the door, my baker was like, yo, man,
you got anything going on this week? I was like, yeah,
you know, it's like it kind of a big week,
you know what I mean? But that wasn't It's not
on some dismissive shit. It's on some shit where it's
like they see me as the person first and as
the author or maker of things second, and that aligns

(19:00):
me with that makes me feel a real desire to
protect myself in this place, which means I have to
protect this place and I have to protect the architecture
of this place, which are the people I'm always I
missed in love. I don't know if y'all know a
new or new of Sponto who did born and raised
out there passed away last year, late last year, but
I think about him all the time, and I have

(19:21):
so much love for the blueprint he set for people
because the way he operated against the gentrification of Venice,
in the preservation of the Venice that he knew and understood.
There's a message in that and a lesson in that,
where it's like, we have to save what we know
and love one block at a time. That's it, right,
because eventually you're gonna lose some You're gonna that's just

(19:41):
the way gentrification works. You're gonna lose some and you're
gonna lose some people in the process. But if you
can preserve the people and places you love for as
long as you can, you'll outlive the worst ambitions. Of
city planners or governments or whoever else. And so I
take that to heart. But yeah, I mean my life
has changed a lot in Columbus in a way. I know,
there's like a real talk there's like a fucking like

(20:02):
mural of my face four blocks from my house, you
know what I mean. So there's stuff like this's like
that kind of thing. But my actual like day to
day living, thankfully feels like pretty normal here.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Speaking about gentrification while you're running from the cops in
the apartment complex is different. And you're stealing a sandwich
from a place just to eat. That was you know,
that was a different way of speaking about it that
I never heard. So yeah, I just wanted to speak
to that.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
It was.

Speaker 5 (20:29):
That was that was. It was jarring and beautiful at
the same time. You know, thank you man. And that's
really the real thing is anyone who like grew up
in the hood running from cops on any level, like
with any regularity, the one thing you do find out
is that you're like, you know the terrain better than
the cops ever, will you know what I mean? Like right,
you know, it doesn't matter if they're faster or whatever else.
You know that you love the hood, so you know,

(20:49):
the terrain of the hood, they're just visiting.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
But when the terrain changes in the hood, you know
what I mean, it kind of fucks your odds a
little bit, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, well, I think I don't know. I think the
other thing that I thought was beautiful was how on
the edges. And first of all, I love your honesty
about like, you're not from Cleveland, and I'm sure that
like for the same way that I'm not from Los Angeles,
I'm sure that for you, Like you know, as a

(21:21):
kid growing up in Columbus, the idea that you would
write a book and people would say it's about Cleveland,
it probably like would have disgusted you to some extent, right,
But I love your honesty about the Brown Championship in Cleveland,
and also how much you did not let it become
a book about that. But it is also a book

(21:42):
that I thought was a really eloquent refutation of the
preposterous idea that sports can be untangled from politics or
like bigger social issues. Is like, that's why any of
us care about any of this shit, is that it's
not just like a new critical approach to there's five
people here and five people here, it's of course, it's

(22:03):
like what it represents.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
How did you did you pull back.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
Intentionally at places where you're like, oh no, I could
go on a little too long about basketball here, Like
how did you kind of balance that?

Speaker 5 (22:13):
Yeah, I mean, first draft was the first draft was
way fucking different. I will and I will say this too, like,
you know, sports, if sports weren't meant to be some
kind of at least even if we don't want to
talk about obviously obvious like larger social issues that are
attached sports, the politics of place are deeply intertwined in sports,
and if they weren't, then sports teams would just be
like roaming circuses. They would just play wherever. You know

(22:35):
what I mean. There would be no Cleveland Cavaliers. It
would just be America's Cavaliers roaming from city to city
playing America's Mavericks or whatever the fuck. But you know
what I mean, Like, yeah, the first draft was Wow.
The first draft my editors was the brilliant Maya Millet.
And this was the first time in my life in
my career as a writer where I've worked with the
same editor on two books and like not two books

(22:55):
in a row and not to get like sports metaphor
heavy or whatever, but it is that continuity. It is real,
like there's a reason why teams are successful when they
just run it back, you know what I mean, Like
when you have a core and you run it back
and run it back. This was the first book where
I had the exact same team going into the book,
and that changed everything. So the first draft was a
lot of me really just describing sports moments in great

(23:18):
detail without any aim. You know, it'd be like and
a very like also like Mike Breen shit like very
play by play wher It's like Kyrie dribbled up the
court and then he and my editor Maya was like,
you're doing this thing and she called it authoritative sports
voice and she was like you're doing it and she's
like and she's so nice, you know what I mean,
Like she wouldn't you know, she was essentially saying like
this shit is whack. But she was like, oh, well,

(23:39):
you're doing it here and also here, and she was
just like circling hell of places.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
You know.

Speaker 5 (23:43):
It was like in here and also here. And I
realized that I was doing it to try to prevent
myself from getting into these deeper emotional places that I
was trying to go in the book. And once I
realized what it looked like and how I was doing it,
I was like, oh shit, this is actually bad, you
know what I mean. And there's a point in the book.
There is a point in the book where I use
it to my advantage, which is the talking about that

(24:04):
Dick Snyder shot in nineteen seventy six where he like
the floater in the lane that looks like the sunset.
That was an opportunity to kind of use that to
my advantage, to get that image off of like a
Game seven is like a sunset. But in order to
make that work, I have to make you visualize the
ball against this blue background as a sunset. But yeah,
the first draft was a lot of me just being
like Kyrie dribbled the ball up the court Steph Curry

(24:25):
shot a step back three, you know, and to get
out of that to work to like in Maya was like,
that's not how you would talk in real life, Like
you wouldn't talk to anyone about Game seven like that
in real life. So talk about this shit as you
would talk about it if you were talking, like if
you were telling this story to a child, like if
you were telling the story of the twenty sixteen Game
seven to someone who has never seen it, tell it

(24:46):
to them like that, And that's kind of that flipped
the switch for me.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, so, you know, digging down deep on how like
Lebron is kind of the central figure here that all
things kind of springboard off of. You know, of course
you wouldn't have pick Lebron if he wasn't from Ohio, right,
because you know there's that correlation there, right, right, So
so you know, I'm curious because there's a certain type

(25:12):
of there's a very unique type of affection that we
have for athletes from our home states, from our home cities, right,
like Alan Overson, Like Lebron is my goat, but Alan
Overson is my favorite basketball player ever, and it's solely
because he's from Virginia.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
Right.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
So you know, you you you made it very clear
how you know you're you revere Bron, You're in all
of him at at times in this book.

Speaker 5 (25:32):
But I'm curious on.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Too, what would be your you would say, is your
unique way that you feel about Bron that is that
is you know, distinct to you being from Ohio.

Speaker 5 (25:44):
Well, the thing at least saw him so much earlier
than everybody else, you know people I mean before actress,
Saint Vincent, Saint Mary, you know, before perhaps his junior
year when they got big and the game started moving
to bigger places. To see him in those first couple
of years, to see him as like a you know,
fourteen fifteen year old, and to see him as a
football player, like to see him he was like an
All state wide receiver the one year he played, you

(26:06):
know what I mean. And to see that there was like,
you know it, It was this kind of feeling of
we got to hear the album before the rest of
the world did you know what I mean? Or we
got we got access to this brilliance before the rest
of the world did. And that was I had never
seen anything like that. I had never seen a phenomenon.
You know, Yes, Kenny Gregory was an All Star, but

(26:27):
also Kenny Gregory played in the era before we knew
what like national rankings were. There wasn't like a there
wasn't an industry around that. There wasn't an industry around
putting these kids on the cover of magazines like Brahn
was on Sports illustrated that type shit, and so to
have the entire focus of a player be up an
Acron specifically, which I think is an interesting city and

(26:49):
in battled city sometimes with a really rich history that
sometimes I think people tend to fix a kind of
deadness to it, like this city was once great and
now it's dead, which is not true, but that's how it.
That's how the and these like factory towns or towns
of industry that are no longer that no longer rely
on that industry, but they have that to feel like
Akron for a while was like the center of the world,

(27:09):
even before the rest of the world turned towards it.
That was cool. And to see that Across Saint Vincent team,
the whole team was wild. You know, outside of I mean,
Ohio's has some great high school basketball teams. Those Brooke
Caven teams were great. The Jared Sullinger Trey Burke Northland
team was great. But that that Acrossaint Vincent team that
was like Bron and Romeo Travis and Drew Joyce and

(27:29):
Hian Cotton. That team was great. They had I always
forget this kid's name, but that like one white kid
who is exactly at what you would imagine, you know
what I means? Like at that time, I feel like
every white kid who was on one of these all
black like super teams is like that motherfucker's coming in
to shoot threes and that is it, you know what
I mean? Three point line? Yeah, that's like that motherfuckers

(27:51):
shoot for real. I gotta remember his name because someone
else asked me about this. That motherfucker could shoot for real,
for real, and he was maybe like the eighth, sixth
or seventh best player on that you know what I mean.
So to see a team like that too felt really
really miraculous. They felt like awesome. It felt like a
very he got game kind of shit where it was like,
you know, the rail splitters in real life.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
I also, I think we're all within like two years
of age of each other, and Braun is kind of
like in the in the middle there. The other thing
that is so different now is you don't get famous
in your town first anymore.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
If you're an.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Elite athlete, you get famous nationally sort of simultaneously.

Speaker 5 (28:29):
Right.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah, that's changed quite a bit in my life as
a sportswriters. We used to get a year or two
with kids where you could develop relationship and see them
grow into that as opposed to John and Tyler and
I have talked a lot about Mikey Williams in San Diego,
which is like, hey, you're fifteen. Everyone in the country
who's a basketball fan knows who you are. You now,
instead of two ways to fuck up your life, here's

(28:51):
ten million ways you can fuck your life up.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
You know, like it.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
It's so different now, and you can't go watch YouTube
videos of Braun the way that now, like a kid
who's the one hundred and fiftieth best player in the
country has.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
Got ten thousand.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
I think that's what was special about that that too,
is he's really the last athlete of his caliber who
got to be locally famous, then regionally famous, and then
to have word of him, like you said about fifty cent,
like kind of spread ahead of before you actually saw
him and everything, and before you followed him on Instagram
or whatever else. I think, Yeah, I mean that he's

(29:30):
the end of this era. I think in a lot
of ways to that kind of athlete.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
I sometimes think I had the did maybe I had
that experience with Austin Rivers to some degree, not the
same certainly not the same. But I remember seeing the
Austin Rivers high school mixtape and being like, what the
fuck is this? You know what I mean? I mean
that is though to be fair, that's like a uniquely
elite high school. His mixtape is like unique in that

(29:54):
era of like you know him, and but even that too, yeah, yeah,
I mean John Wall, Mike State. Yeah, it's like but
even those guys were not They weren't on my radar
in the same way. You know. It was kind of
just like, oh cool, you know what I mean, like
a high school star going on like a big college.

Speaker 6 (30:09):
You know.

Speaker 5 (30:09):
That's and that's kind of the vibe now where it's
like you can watch these tapes and that's it, you know.
And for Lebron, it was like a whole thing. The
Hummer thing was big, and to see that on the
ground in Ohio was interesting because that came you know,
I mean, there was a lot of This isn't surprising,
but there was a lot of racism around Lebron by
the time he was a senior, you know what I mean,
Like a lot because Aker Saint Vincent, because of the

(30:34):
region and the conference they played in, because of the
division they were playing, in Ohio. They were just smoking
a lot of white schools from like a lot of
rural areas, and I was beating the fuck out of
these schools, and a lot of parents and a lot
of like fans of these schools were tired of seeing
it happen. And when that Hummer shit jumped off, and
when the Jersey shit jumped off, it was a real
opportunity to kind of be like, oh, he's always what

(30:55):
we thought he was, you know what I mean, that
kind of thing, And so I think about that a lot.
You know, I never felt when bron left Cleveland, when
Brown left the Calves to go to Miami, I feel
like what people don't remember about that time is yet
the Calves lost that Celtic series, and Klavs fans were
talking wild. Cavs fans were on some shit where it's like, oh,
he can go, we don't need him, we don't you
know what I mean. It was on that type of

(31:15):
shit until he was like, all right, I'm probably gonna go,
and then it was like, well, well, you know, we
don't really mean it, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yeah, they were thinking in the comic Sanspot, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (31:27):
For sure, it's wild and I think about I have
a lot of grace for Lebron in a way because
I feel like Ohio has been at times really hostile
to him, like when he was a high school student,
and it was really hostile to him. It was really
hostile to him after that Celtics series, and to me,
it made sense for him to leave for a little
bit and now they'll never be hostile to him again.

(31:48):
I mean, twenty sixteen cemented h that's like a legacy
defining thing, you don't, you know. But before that, I
thought he was met with a lot of unfairness in
some realms of his life.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Here can we pause and just appreciate because I had
not thought about it in probably a decade until reading
the passage in your book. Is there a funnier controversy
than the Hummer loan? Like like like like Gloria James
took out a fifty thousand dollars loan or whatever it
was against your son's future earnings, which are now you know,
in the multiple billions of times a billion dollar with

(32:23):
one Nike alone lifetime forever.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
But at the time, I mean that ship was on
Sports Center.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
That was like absolutely an H two and what you
said was it's fifty k. Like, like I remember when
it was talked about. I didn't. I wasn't rich enough
to even know how much of that Age two costs.

Speaker 7 (32:42):
I thought it was one hundred thousand dollars car. And
I thought, you know what I'm saying, anybody well be
the Lamborghini. The white motherfuckers was talking about this shit.
You know what I'm saying, Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's
now you going.

Speaker 5 (32:56):
I wasn say. It's also a very strange car for
a high school to have, like that was I think
the the funny thing for me was that he was
like pulling up to school in this large, unwieldy war
machine almost.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
But you know, the same car that in the wakes
the video. Like you know what I'm saying, Yeah, yeah,
it's so strange.

Speaker 5 (33:15):
I mean, like that it's a sign of the times
for real, Like every you know, people in my hood
were getting H two, So it was like a sign
of the era. But it's so funny to think of
the poultry amount of money it was. And also if
that were to happen to day, no one would even
I mean with the Nil ship. But even before the
Nil show, I feel like no one would even blink
an eye. You know what I mean. Mikey Williams has
a dollar car.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Bro. Right, Yeah, Mikey Williams drive drove like I think
in the tenth grade a Lamborghini truck.

Speaker 5 (33:42):
He had a baby blue Lamborghini truck. Bro. Wouldn't nobody
trip off? No damn age two? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (33:48):
So for Shure, there's there's, there's there's two things I
always think about when I think about H two and
so of course the lebron scandal and the only Tony
Yayo bars that I ever really liked, where he said
I'm blowing H two Oh and the aach too with
a project chick named Rachel. That ship was so hard,
Bro toyoo ever said that's tough.

Speaker 5 (34:07):
Absolutely, you know what Tonyalo. Okay, So like Tony Yo
is not good, but okay, I say I want to say,
I'm like, let's he needs a great hype man.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
I've always said, I've always said the best I've always
I've always said the best ship Tony Yale has ever said.
I reckon it's yelling Lloyd Banks when Banks ispads and
like that's that's his contribution.

Speaker 5 (34:25):
Great you need it. You need a guy like that. Listen,
Like we all understood the framework at G Unit, Like
Lloyd Banks was the good rapper. Fifty was like the figurehead.
You need a guy like Tony Yo to just kind
of you know, just yell every every wrap crew that
is made up. Whatever a rapper gets big and then
forms like a crew, it always follows this blueprint, you know,

(34:45):
like not to bring Saint Louis and the same lunatics
the same ship. Like Nellie's a figurehead, Murphy leaves a
good rapper at He's just like a guy.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
You know, he just at you, like having a round,
you know what I'm say. With his energy, you feel me.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
That's your that's your that's your one white kid on
the All Black basketball team. Like you have a very
specific role, but it's an important role.

Speaker 5 (35:07):
Like it's important to have good vibes in this in
that kind of scenario, it's important to have a motherfucker
who's just like cool to have around and it won't
start some ship. I love that. I would be that.
I'm sympathetic to those two because I would most likely
be that dude in that sense.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Everybody can't be Lauryn Hill and why Cliff, somebody gotta
be prized.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Bro.

Speaker 5 (35:27):
I feel like, now I don't nobody want to be prized.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
I feel like, yeah, federal charges, Hey, defense putting in work, dog.
These motherfuckers haven't banner years like they about to. They
about to do numbers with Dinny Dog that ship. Hey,
you know we're talking about that twenty sixteen ring Ron
and hey, they about to get their twenty sixteen ring
with that.

Speaker 5 (35:46):
Motherfucker all over that motherfucker. M hm. So I want
to ask a question real quick.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
My gosh, my wife wanted me to ask this too,
because we a lot of times when, like you, I
would read her excerpts from the book, like you got
to hear this shit, Like I talk to them about
this on Friday, Like you could open like in the
way you write, you could basically open up to a
page and find something that'll be like, oh shit, you
feel me like no matter what page you open up to.

(36:16):
So I was like reading a lot of excerpts to
my wife and we were wondering, like, you know, how
did you like you had.

Speaker 5 (36:24):
To see the world in a particular way.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Things had to happen in your life for you to
see the world in the way you see it right
and write to it in the way you write to it.
And it made me wonder, like, like, when did you
become a writer? Like were you a writer at the
workhouse when you were shooting baskets into the abyss?

Speaker 5 (36:38):
You know?

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Like, or like did you become a writer after the
experiences you know that you had, did that it pushed
you into writing?

Speaker 5 (36:45):
And that's a good question. I mean, in some ways
I was a writer in those moments, but I wasn't
putting words on the page, you know what I mean. Like,
I think there's some who believe you live a full
life as a writer and then you just kind of
the material on the page comes when it comes out.
I didn't like start writing writing until like twenty twelve.
I didn't put my first book out until twenty sixteen.

(37:05):
So this is what like six books in eight years.
But I think the reason why this is like my
sixth book in eight years is because I was writing
in the process of those experiences to be in the
workhouse and lay on my back at night and shoot
a ball of white socks into the darkness and watch
the the white socks kind of become like their own
small moon, and then it comes back down to my

(37:26):
own hands, and I'm like holding this moon in my hands.
Even working through and processing that as an image in
real time is a form of writing, you know what
I mean? Now, to think to put that on the page, Yeah,
that doesn't That didn't occur to me until years later.
But I also think a part of my I'm the
youngest of four, you know what I mean, Like, and
I spent a lot of time alone, not off of
like neglect, it's just I don't know if y'all, any

(37:47):
of y'all are the youngest. Well, you're youngest of four
in a house with people got jobs and lives. You know,
you spend a lot of time alone. And you know,
my mom passed when I was young. There's a lot
of time spent with my own imagination, trying to create
a more survivable world for myself, you know what I mean?
And that requires writing like that requires internal wiring that
is always building a story, even if you're not putting

(38:08):
the story on a page, which in some ways makes
the writing now easier for me, or it makes the
things I'm pulling from easier for me, because in a
way that language has been forming itself around my living
for as long as I needed it to survive, you know.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
The So, something I love about your writing is, you know,
it's it's kind of like a tapestry at times where
you're weaving in all these different things into like one
common core, one common theme. Like like with the intro,
you know, you mentioned the Fab Five when they bald
their heads. You mentioned MJ and the dunk contest back
when he had the Dark Caeson before he went to

(38:44):
the trademark ball. You mentioned how you enjoyed watching your
bald head dad eat dinner because he'd get really worked
up and start like wiping the sweat off his head, right,
and you mentioned and you mentioned the flame you had
in high school wounded the shave her head like Michelle
and Decacello and you like wolve all that together. The
common theme was like, you know, fuck the enemies on
the outsiders who don't understand us in our customs, right,
we're doing this and fellowship with ourselves, right, and so

(39:07):
like I don't really have a question here, I just
want to say that I love that aspect of your
writing is how you can just take you know, something
from here and something from here and something from there
and just bring it all together for a comedy and
it's fucking brilliant.

Speaker 5 (39:18):
Dude, Thank you, I appreciate that. And I was like,
so much of that was because I remember being young
at least that section. I love the Fab Five. I
love them so much, and I remember being that was
like the first basketball team that I related to in
any way. You know, I was very young when they
were falling, but we could see all that because I
was in the Midwest. All their games are on TV
all the time, and they just loved each other. These
dudes were like always, even if you look at old

(39:39):
photos of them now, they're always hugging each other, always
got their arms around each other. And to see black
men be that physically affectionate towards each other at a
young age was cool. But then I would hear the
way that like white announcers would talk about them, and
it was so such a stark difference between what I
was witnessing. Yeah, because I was like, oh, these dudes
are like they love each other, they're affectionate, they're joyful.
And then you'd hear like dig Vi Taylor whoever, be like,

(40:00):
oh they're villains or they're scary all this type shit
and that at a very early age of flying for me,
like what an enemy could be, Like, an enemy is
anyone who's acting in opposition to that, you.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Know, right right, Like one of my favorite five five
eclips is that moment when Jalen Rose and Chris Webber
are forehead to forehead and j Jalen Rose is big
in them up and you could tell Jalen Roles is
telling us, She's like, these motherfuckers can't funk with your
Chris fucking Webber, you know, go out here and work,
you could tell. And Chris Webber is just like soaking
it in and that shit scared white people, you know
what I'm saying, that type of affirmation. Yeah, yeah, so

(40:34):
it's yeah, you know, you know, you know, like I said,
fuck your theme of you know, fuck the outsiders who
don't understand our customs.

Speaker 5 (40:39):
You know. So yeah, SOE and that with Andel Reese,
you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely, I mean I
like and I think I think all the time about
I mean, Angel Reese is a very specific kind of
player from a very specific kind of basketball ecosystem. Like
people who have not played street ball in Baltimore or
the like in Baltimore or the DMV and gen like

(41:01):
I've played street while out there. That's a very unique
basketball climate. To come out of there, takes a certain
to come out of a lot of place, takes a
certain type, but you are a very specific type of
player to come out of there. Angel Reese is the
kind of embodiment of that, and the fact that she
is brash and talented. And I don't actually think Angel

(41:23):
Reese is on court. I think it's more funny than anything,
like I think, And that is also like I've had
some of the funniest shit talk to me when I
played ball, when I've hooped in like the DMV area.
Think there's a lot of comedy of you know what
I mean.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, we have never seen her loser cool while she's
talking like she calm and told someone in the handshake
line watch your mouth and kept the moving and dam right,
like she's funny with it.

Speaker 5 (41:43):
There's that clip on her at the free throw line
where the person was talking shit age she turns her
like we're talking to you, And it's because she's fearless, right,
It's because she's not afraid of these motherfuckers, you know,
And to be that light and quick on your feet
when it comes to trash talk, be it fab five,
I be Angel Reese, be it even like to some extent,

(42:03):
I know he's not black, but being like Luka doncics
right like you that that requires a level of fearlessness
that even if it where like, even if it isn't
your day, it's still your day. You know that clip
of Angel Reese talking to a girl from Tennessee that
game she shot like six for nineteen or something, but
it didn't matter because she's Angel Reese. You know she's done.

(42:24):
It's her day. She's done the work already. And you know,
I think tuning people to what that what that is
like is maybe not our job. I like, I'm not
If you don't understand, you just have to sit on
the outside. You know.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Do you guys have more book questions? Or can we
talk NBA for a couple of minutes.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Let's let's let's talk NBA, Let's talk rap. I'm curious
on whereas at with the J Cole Kendrick.

Speaker 5 (42:49):
I want to get let's talk about let's talk about
the Kendrick ship because I just heard the J Cole
thing like on my way, I just I land in
Columbus a couple hours ago and I listened to him.
I got off the plane and I thought, well, this
isn't the Simpsons line was bad, I thought. But also
I'm having I'm having a hard time. I know that

(43:10):
people is like clowning online because what are the rat
blogs posted, like here's Kendrick's first album and second. But
I actually don't know how J Cole is assessing this,
Like is he saying section eighty? Is he starting a
section eighty or is he's starting a good Kid inn
at City because that's a different conversation. I would like
to have a different conversation about the with the J
Cole metric, if that's what we're talking. But uh, I

(43:30):
think it's.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
He got to be starting with with good King Massie.
No way he'd say was born. Yeah, yeah, that.

Speaker 5 (43:37):
Was my that's my like, that's my logical take. I
will say it felt like JA Cole actually did not
want to do this, and it kind of felt a
little bit like Kendrick was mostly just trying to poke
Drake and J Cole just happened to be there, you
know what I mean, Like one of those things where
like you know, somebody punches your homie and then they
fall into you and now you're in the fight too.

(44:00):
It feels like Kendrick like really just wanted wanted Drake,
and then j Cole was just kind of because of
the whole first person shoot a thing, Jake Cole was
just in the orbit. But the problem is Drake isn't
gonna rap. We all know Drake is gonna do his
little motivational speeches on stage, He's gonna dose little funny
memes on Instagram. He's not gonna rap. It's but Jake
Cole will. And so my hope is that we find

(44:21):
we have some like prolonged responses. I think in focused
responses too, like not just hopping on a on a
verse or hopping or dropping. So have a song. I
miss an era of battle where full on songs were
dedicated to this ship. Say what you will about the
last time Drake was in some some shit like this,
But at least him and push A T gave us
a couple songs, like a couple of full songs where

(44:44):
they dedicated Well that's not true. Drake gave us a
full song for Meek Mill, push a treat. Push a
T gave us a full song for Drake. That's kind
of what it should be. I feel like and I
miss that, and I hope that this leads to that
because I do. I'm I'm I'm an optimist on the
abilities of both Jake Cole and Kendrick. I think they
both can rap. I think it would be good for
mainstream rap if they spent some time, some real focused

(45:06):
time pushing each other around a bit and don't even
consider it, like move Drake from the orbit of this conversation,
because that motherfucker is not gonna get in the studio.
He's not built for this kind of thing anymore. I
think I think there was a point where he was honestly,
I really I you know what. I think charged Up
is a good song. I was in the on the
camp where it's like, I think charged Up was like
a good dis sack, a good disc track. I think

(45:27):
he did his thing on that. The problem is, I
think the push a t thing has a I think
that's like forever stunted Drake. Yeah, it's a point where
like it's scarred him. He's still mad about it. He's
still very emotional about it on that like stupid ass
Travis Scott song. He had that emotional lass verse about
melting down for L's jewelry and shit like that. It's like, man,

(45:48):
nobody actually cares about that if you're not going to rap,
you know what I mean, like nobody cares about your
We'll say, I feel like it's a it's an Earl
sweatshirt of Inn Staples thing. It's like, nigga, we don't
care how we how you feel alone, just rap you
feel me and so yeah, but I love I mean,
I think Jake Cole's went on an incredible run. Uh

(46:09):
and I'm I'm eager. I'm eager to hear him like
dedicate an actual full song to this ship and Kendrick
as well.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
These have just been jabs. It just it just felt
like these are just jabs. They're feeling each other out,
you know what I mean, You're seeing how somebody reacts
and then we go and get what we really get.

Speaker 5 (46:26):
I don't think I I think, I don't.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Think I think j Cole truly respects Kendrick. I don't
think he really thinks Kendrick's.

Speaker 5 (46:35):
Albums are garbage.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
I think he I think this was more like Nigga,
you ain't who they say you are. I'm really like
that you feel me and I'm not the one to
fuck with That's what he's saying. And I can respect
that as a nigga who's seen that and maybe even
said that a couple of times, you.

Speaker 5 (46:51):
Know what I mean. Sometimes I believe it.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Sometimes I didn't, but I've said it, you know what
I'm saying. So like, but uh, but yeah, I feel
like that, and I think that's Hey, that's what we
want in rap, whether you know what I mean. And
so I'm cool with what was said on both sides.
Like you said, though, I would like a whole like,
let's let's let's drop an album if you have, if
you can, or just or just at least a song.
We're like, hey, you know what I mean, I'm going

(47:16):
straight at you. Ain't no, ain't no playing around about it.
I'm not pretending like I'm saying this. I'm going straight
at you about the ship and we're going and let's
let's see who's better.

Speaker 5 (47:25):
And and I think between the two of them, if
one is better, they're so good. Nobody loses.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
I think Drake, I think Drake really lost to push
your t because he's a bitch.

Speaker 5 (47:36):
You know what.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
I mean not because not because push it just destroyed him.
Just he just he didn't swing back. You got pushing
the face and you walked away. You know what I mean.
I've seen niggas get they ass beat, but if you
fight back.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
You ain't. You ain't. You ain't a bitch to me.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Niggas lose fights, you feel me, but if you can
face you walked away with me no more, you know
what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
The whole, the whole, like he won't let me release this,
like you know, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Was worse than not reading by That's embarrassing.

Speaker 5 (48:08):
That was embarrassed, absolutely embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Yeah, and Lebron, you heard it before you heard this,
you wouldn't you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (48:14):
On the on the shop, you heard this. I shouldn't
drop this, should I?

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (48:19):
Man?

Speaker 1 (48:21):
When I went on Joe put a team on Joe
Buddieshill was like somebody telling me I can't release musical.

Speaker 5 (48:26):
You fucking crazy like Joe, Like exactly what it is
is more than just like him being seeming. You're a
grown man and you're an more than that. More than that,
you're an artist. That's you have a responsibility as an
artist to yourself awesome, even if someone this is you
or if someone If you've created something that you believe

(48:46):
in and you're letting someone else tell you can't put
that ship out, you failed as an artist. Fuck it,
failing as like a man, or failing as someone who
needs to fire back. You failed as an artist. If
you've created something that you actually feel powerful about and
you feel like it has could have an impact on
the culture in any way, and you have decided that
someone else can be the arbiter of whether or not

(49:07):
you put that shit out, you're failing as an artist.
And I think also you're losing. I mean, at this point,
Drake is so big that it doesn't actually matter if
he loses a respect of certain audiences because he has
like a built in fan base. But that also is
how complacency is built. And the thing that we're seeing
I think with Kendrick and j Cole that I'm interested in,
is that they're not complacent. They have built in fan bases.

(49:29):
They certainly are built in fan bases that will continue
to feed them, but they're they're not. They might be
and they might be satisfied by that, but they're not
letting that govern how they move. And if someone takes
a jab at you, if someone effectively says I wish
a nigga would, then you gotta be you might be like, hey,
I might fulfill that wish, you know, I mean, like

(49:51):
to sit back and let that fly past you and
do nothing is treason us to the art form. It's
not just treason us to whatever like machismo you're rocking
with or whatever the it's treats in this to the
art form that you purport to love. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
there's no way you convinced me.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Drake just wasn't shook too, because you know what I'm saying,
like like you know, at the end of Story of Ada,
don put your t you know, hinted, bro, I'm waiting
on you to come back cause I got some more
I got some more singers for your ass. But as
far as the j Cole response to to Kendrick, that
just dropped. I feel like the approach that Ja Cole
took was he was going to parrot all of the

(50:28):
criticisms that Kendrick got on social media, and he was like,
I'm telling you this as an artist, that these criticisms
are valid, you know what I'm saying, And I feel
like I feel like the the the wrinkle there is
people try to hurt people in ways that would hurt them.
And you know, Ja Cole is a fucking online punchline,
right like like he knows he might know for he
knows first saying how much you know, the little social
media jokes thing and shit, like we heard the bar

(50:50):
he had. You know, some niggas make money, some niggas
make means where he was like, you know, he's very
well aware of how he's like kind of a you know,
a joke of being a boring rapper on on online
and he came right back with that to Kendrick and
called Kendrick boring because I know that boring shit stings him.
And the funny shit is, if you're calling to Pipper
Butterfly boring, Bro, that is the most j Cole esque
album in Kendrick's desography, Like Jake Cole could have made

(51:13):
that album, Bro.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
J Cole listened to and fell to his knees in prayer,
like I just want to make one thing like this.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, so but but yeah, you know, you know, like
John said, these are just jabs. I don't think anyone's
gonna be crazy enough to hop out there first and
give Kendrick a whole fucking track, right, that's a fucking
death wish. And honestly, I think Kendrick is just on
some shit, Like I don't think he needs to prove
himself and hop our fan and drop a whole track
like I think this is probably the deepest it's gonna get.

Speaker 5 (51:41):
Bro. Also, Kendrick maybe was getting a little annoyed with
being lumped in with Drake and j Cole and because
it didn't seem like he was it didn't seem like
he was ever that interested or at least not recently
that interested in being in their company, you know what
I mean. And so it was it's like that shit
where like, you know, these people aren't my friend, these

(52:01):
people aren't the homies, you know, like Drake and J
cold a homely sure, but or at least it seems
like that is the case. But these aren't the homies
and they're just out here acting like we're it equals.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
But but but we've talked about this. Kendrick did not
grow up as a fucking child actor in Canada. Like,
of course, he doesn't want to be lumped in with
those people. He's not doing research on Wikipedia to write
about this shit he's writing about. If I was Kendrick,
I wouldn't want to be lumped in with them either.

Speaker 5 (52:26):
Yeah, yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
I mean but also I think I think Kendrick doesn't
see himself as like just a rapper. He sees himself
as a fucking artist. I'm different from y'all niggas, y'all
here just rapping. The way he makes music and he
approaches it is so fucking different, you feel me? Like,
So I just feel like, even look what he's doing
with PG Lane, you know what I mean, the amount
of creative creativity he puts, and he's a true artist.

Speaker 5 (52:49):
So I'm just like, Yo, what y'all doing is cool.
You make good bars, but I'm way bigger than that nigga.
You feel me? So I think like, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
I'm not.

Speaker 5 (52:55):
I'm not. And also like.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
With the with the drag shit, I do think j
Cole takes very very seriously right, you know what I mean,
It's very important to him.

Speaker 5 (53:03):
He's not complacent. Drake is Drake's last joint. I said
it could be AI music.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
AI could write what he does you know, I feel
like you could put the ship and you know, in
in a in a in Ai joined and and it
would have made that album, you feel me. But I
feel like, uh, you know, Kendricks like Kendrick, you know,
just thinks about the game totally different it thinks about
his approach to the music is so different. I don't
compare me to fucking nobody. And I think he's on
that type of shit. You feel me, Yeah, It's it's like,

(53:30):
you know something interesting. Here is a track I really
really fucking loved was Kendrick and Baby King's Beverly Hill Billy.

Speaker 5 (53:36):
Shit and yeah a heater right.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
And the thing is that was low key a shot
at Drake's sticky track off of Honestly Nevermind right, Like,
like Keem used kind of the same flow that that
that Drake is on that track. And for one, I
fucking love how Baby Keen has has thrown shots at
Drake because there was a time where where Drake went
on rap Radar with Ellie Wilson. He was like, yo,

(54:01):
I love this Baby Keem album down for a bitch,
and Baby King just like after that, Baby Keem just
started throwing shots at Drake like nah, big because don't
fuck with you.

Speaker 5 (54:08):
So it's fuck it, you know, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
And I love that about baby Key right right, Yeah,
that's that's little cousin energy right there for sure. And
it's just like like on that Beverly Hill Billy strack,
it feels like they're having fun and they're like, bro,
we're just clowning and this is the music this dude
makes for real, you know what I'm saying. I feel
like that was kind of the subtext on that, you
know what I'm saying. So, so, Kendrick for sure thinks
he's the better artist. I think Kendrick takes takes, you know,

(54:32):
of fence when people try to lump him with Drake
because you know, like you said, John, I think Kendrick
wholeheartedly believes he's by far the better artists.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
And he's right. Yeah, I would say he's correct then yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yeah, Drake's the better hit maker, but you know, yeah, yeah,
he's the biggest star.

Speaker 5 (54:50):
Kendrick's the better artist. Is not even close to me,
you know.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
What I'm saying. So, uh, honey, do you have a
couple of minutes to talk basketball?

Speaker 5 (54:57):
Well, it's always got a couple minute tuck basketball. It's
a good time for me to talk basketball. It's a good,
you know, good time.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
I was gonna say yes as we're recording this, because
it's going to come out after you guys play the Suns,
and who knows where the standings will.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
Be at that point.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
But at the moment on Friday, April fifth, as we're
recording this, the Timberwolves are the one seed in the West.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
How do you feel about that?

Speaker 3 (55:20):
And how are you How are you someone who came
on this podcast and said that hope is not a
part of your process, it's being a sports fan. How
are you dealing with this season as a Timberwolves fan?

Speaker 5 (55:31):
Now, I'm hopeful, you know, I sit, I mean now,
I got no choice but to be able hopeful, I
will say, I mean, apparently cats, I had a schedule
and so catt'ill be back, like right at the beginning
of the playoffs, or maybe even right before. I loved
hearing that I'm a little bit the West. This year
feels tougher than maybe it has been in a long time.

(55:54):
Like if you look at the standings, the Sun's I
think once the Sun's getting the playoffs that's gonna be
a different team, and so I really would like to
avoid playing the Suns in the playoffs. But I would
like to avoid playing most of these motherfuckers in the playoffs, honestly.
Like I think the Timberwls match up against the Kings, well,
I think it could beat the Kings in the first round.
I think they could beat the Warriors in the first round.

(56:14):
I just don't believe the Warriors are Like hate to
say this because Steph is still generational, like playing at
a generational level, but I don't believe in them. I
just don't believe in that team. I know they looked
good last night, but I don't believe in that team.
But outside of that, it's like I don't want to
play any of these teams in the first round, Like,
you know, definitely want to avoid the Nuggets and Thunder
for as long as you can. But outside of that,

(56:36):
like the Clippers, I don't like that matchup with the
Clippers either. I don't really like, you know, none of
these teams. All of them kind of make me a
little bit nervous. But I'm just amazed that the Timberwolves,
they're almost certainly going to finish in the top three.
I think they're I gotta look at standis, but I
think they're guaranteed to finish top three. This is maybe
the best Timberwolves team. I know this is not the

(57:00):
MVP year team. Most tim Rowles fans will say that's
the best tim Rules team. I think this is maybe
the best tim Rules team we've ever had, and playoff
success will determine that. Like that KG team got to
the Western Conference finals, but I think it was a
I don't know, I'm gonna be careful here, but I
think it was a I don't want to say it
was the worse West, but it was a different West.
I think if this Timberwles team even wins like a

(57:21):
couple series in this Western Conference, that's that's They're the
best ten roles team of all time for me. Yeah.
But nonetheless, it's been a fun regular season. It's been
like an impossibly fun regular season. This team is who
knows next year. It feels like this team maybe has
one more year together, if even that, and then you
kind of got to start picking it the part. But uh,

(57:42):
what a run. Yeah, it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Yeah, they're saying Kat might be back for the playoffs.
Man that would be huge, bro.

Speaker 5 (57:50):
It'll be huge, Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, because
the offense, I mean one thing that's that's going under
the radar because they have been still winning without him.
With the offense without him is is pretty pretty bad.
I mean it's some of these games is like, I
don't know how they're winning. Some of these games are
winning like nine, putting up ninety points. Still, well, it's
a testament to the defense. But like they need they
need Cat back. That offense is really a struggle because

(58:13):
you know what I love about Ann Edwards is what
a lot of people love about him is that he
on any given night can go off for forty, but
on any given night he can also shoot like six
for twenty one. And what was great about having Cat
in the lineup is that he's just you know, cats
are guaranteed like twenty to twenty five points on over
fifty percent shooting like every night, you know what I mean.
So if you need a guy who can just get
you a pretty consistent sixty percent chance you're gonna make

(58:36):
a kind of bucket, you need that guy in the
lineup because no one else is that. But you know
what I mean, no one else on that lineup, is that.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
Guy John Tyler, your feelings if it's Lakers Timberwolves in
the first round, which could.

Speaker 5 (58:49):
Which is right now it's a possibility.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Yeah, oh, come on now, it's it's Brown all day
on this.

Speaker 6 (58:56):
We're smacking the niggas up. Sorry, my boy, I must
respect to tune that thing up. My boy, you hear me.
It was a great year. There's always next year.

Speaker 5 (59:08):
Always that's a matchup that I don't want either, because
because I mean healthy a D. You know, he'd be
putting Go Bear in hell, you know, like we've seen
it enough, and Go Beart has had a season like
Go Beart is like certainly defense player of the Year
has had I think maybe the best season of his career.
But a D gives him I mean, a D just

(59:28):
gives him fit, you know what I mean. So I'm
not trying to see that ship for seven games or
however many games it takes. I'm just not trying to
see it. But I will say, I don't you know
Brian and a D or Brian and a D. I
think I don't know the rest of that Lakers roster
is It's a little tricky for me, a little tricky
for me, but I.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Mean, yeah, it's hell for Darvin Ham, I'll tell you that, motherfucker.

Speaker 5 (59:55):
So. But my building on that, bro, like, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I think I'm still drinking the kool a because bron
is still so fucking good. I still think, you know,
you know, right, I still thinking in the seven game series,
I think they've got a shot against any fucking body. Dude,
I think they are just a fucking player's mute and
me away and telling Darvin Ham, give us the motherfucking
clay board. You know, give us the mother fucking clipboard.
We're gonna figure shit out. You know, I really think

(01:00:22):
that that that, Like I said, we've seen fucking how
incredible Bron is, We've seen how incredible ideas. I still
think they've got as good a shot against anybody and
a man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Particularly young teams that aren't you know what I'm saying,
Like the Nuggets, I wouldn't like like like Mike said,
that's a.

Speaker 5 (01:00:37):
Professional basketball team. I don't know about that capital be professional.
But like, okay, see, you know what I'm saying. The Timbos,
where like you know, they're kind of young, tested, I
think we could pull that off for sure, I do
think the coaching. You know, it's funny. All early in
the season, I wasn't watching as many Laker games just
because it's time zone shit, and so I was seeing
everybody be like, man, Dart, even Ham don't know what

(01:00:59):
the fuck he's doing. I was seeing and that was
growing to like a fever pitch, and I was like,
I mean, how bad can it be? And I watched
one of them games out, Oh, buddy, is bad? What's
the rotations don't make sense sometimes, like in late game situations,
I'm like, what is this monthfucker even drawn on the
clip Like is he's just drawing stick figures? Like what
is he doing on the clipboard? It's baffling to me

(01:01:22):
that he is employed, you know what I mean? And
I know that it is what it is. We all know,
like you know, you know, bron in some ways is
the coach on the court and off the court, I'm sure,
but iron Ham like he is stealing checks for at
this point, He's just like, man, it's just stealing money.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
I mean, I mean, since Braun basically led a player
mutiny to put Ruey in the starting lineup, take Tory
and Prince out of it, I.

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
Believe since then.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
I think D'Angelo Russell is in the top three in
the league in three point shooting, and I believe the
Lakers are twenty.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
Two and ten.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
But it took Lebron James to go to the coach
and say, suggestion, what if we played our best basketball players.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
I feel like I feel like Tory and Prince got
it the worst of everybody, because when they picked Tory
Prince up, I was like, that's a great pick up,
great piece right there.

Speaker 5 (01:02:07):
Dalburnham was like, I've got a franchise player, no nor,
no bro six three seven threes a game. That's what
we need, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's rough,
it's rough. You know, I don't know if he'll be
there next season, but I do also think that, uh,
you know, it's I imagine coaching any Lebron team has

(01:02:31):
its challenges because Lebron is, oftentimes I think, thinking so
far ahead of the coach, the smartest mine on the fence, right,
He's like, so we've seen this Lebron before, where like
sometimes teams are like, let's just bring in a game manager,
but the rest of the players don't need a game that,
you know what I mean? Like the rest of the
players actually need structure or need it. Sometimes it's like,

(01:02:51):
I think what Mike Brown has done as Sacramento is
really admirable, and like, you know, he's really revived that team.
He couldn't really coach Lebron that well, certainly not as
well as he's doing in Sacramount. And so you know,
sometimes it's just a fit thing. And I don't know
if Darvin Ham will be there next season, but I
hope that he hoped that his career as a head
coach is not over, because I think he could be
a good fit just somewhere else a couple of years

(01:03:13):
down the road. Yeah, I love to spot black man winning,
but just not over here.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
I don't want to. I want to voice a black
man out of a job. It's hard enough out here.
I get it, bro, Hey, get you a job somewhere else,
would you.

Speaker 5 (01:03:27):
I was feeling like that about I was feeling like
that about Money Williams earlier season. I was like, damn,
I don't want to. I don't want to wish a
black man out of employment. But this this motherfucker might
have to go. You know, he'll be just fine, dude,
will be all right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
Well, uh, if you love the podcast, please we are
begging you.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
Go by. There's always this year on basketball and essentially.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
So so so such a great good and we always
appreciate you, you nudging your PR team to make sure
that we're part of your your plans.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
Has been great having you on.

Speaker 5 (01:03:59):
Thank you. Always appreciate Charles always man, it's always God
to jump to my boy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
M hm.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
The volume

Speaker 6 (01:04:10):
M hm.