March 5, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, Joseph Braude, president of the Center for Peace Communications, discusses the organization's mission to amplify the voices of those in Gaza and the Middle East who seek freedom from oppressive regimes. Braude shares insights from his extensive experience in the region, highlighting the hope for change and the importance of soft power in addressing extremism. He emphasizes the need for a nuanced understanding of the situation in Gaza, where many residents express a desire for relocation due to the harsh realities of life under Hamas. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Wednesday & Friday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
A lot of you agreed with the advice I gave
the couple who wrote in last week to recap.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
A woman wrote in saying she's thirty two and her
boyfriend is thirty six. They've been dating for six years,
and she wrote in with the concern that despite the
fact that they've voted similarly, they're both Republicans who voted
for Trump, she's moving rightward and he's moving leftward. I
told them that politics wasn't actually their problem. It's that
(00:35):
they've been together for six years and are not engaged,
not moving forward, and a lot of you agreed with that.
I had lunch with a new friend this week and
we talked relationships and how I think it's the moving
forward together that really keeps a relationship going. I'm married
for nearly sixteen years, but we're constantly thinking about our future.
(00:57):
What are our summer plans, not just this summer, but
also summer twenty twenty six. Our youngest child is nine,
but what are we thinking for when the kids are
out of the house. How long will we stay in
our current house? It'll be too big for us, But
We also love the idea of them having a comfortable
home to come back to whenever they want and bring
(01:19):
our grandkids back too. I know, life happens, and the
future you picture doesn't always work out the way you
think it will. It's a common story. I'm not saying
that moving forward immediately inoculates you from that. Plenty of
people have been married twenty years, thirty years, pictured their
future lives together and had it end abruptly. It happens,
(01:43):
I know. But it helps when you're looking outward in
the same direction. It helps sustain your current relationship to
think about the future together. I would say that while
building toward a future together doesn't one hundred percent mean
that the future will will work out the way you intend.
If you're not building together, then that is probably a problem.
(02:06):
You should be a team. You're a unit. And so
many people, you know, I've heard this over the years
say things like they love the whole. Oh but Woody
Allen and Mia Farrow waved at each other from their
own individual apartments across Central Park. You don't have to
live together, you don't have to tie your lives to
each other, and you could still be together. Sure, but
we know how their story ends. And while not every
(02:29):
relationship like that will end up with the guy marrying
his girlfriend's daughter, I've never heard of a relationship that
isn't moving forward that ends up working out. And yes,
I do mean moving forward with all the traditional markers
of marriage, living together, tying your lives together. Officially I
gave them advice last episode, but if the couple who
(02:51):
wrote in are listening, I would add that you shouldn't
try to rewrite how relationships work. This thing has been
working the way it has. This plan has existed for
hundreds of years. Keep moving forward together. Thanks for listening.
Coming up my interview with Joseph Browdie. But first, after
more than a year of war, terror and pain in Israel,
(03:15):
all of Israel is broken hearted after learning of the
tragic deaths of the Beavers children who were held hostage
in Gaza, and so many are still herding throughout the
Holy Land, where the need for aid continues to grow.
The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has supported and
continues to support the families of hostages and other victims
(03:38):
of the October seventh terror attacks. With your help. IFCJ
has provided financial and emotional help to hostages and their families,
and to those healing and rebuilding their broken homes and
broken bodies. But the real work is just beginning. Your
gift will help provide critically needed support to families in
(03:58):
Israel whose lives continue to be destroyed by terror and
uncertainty as Israel remains surrounded by enemies. Give a gift
to bless Israel and her people by visiting SUPPORTIFCJ dot org.
One word support IFCJ dot org or call eight eight
eight four eight eight IFCJ. That's eight eight eight four
(04:23):
eight eight IFCJ.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
And welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is Joseph Browdie. Joseph is president and
founder of Center for Peace Communications, a nonprofit group who
partners with Gaza and countries across the Middle East to
help tell the stories of the people who want to
be free from brutal conditions of terrorist control. So nice
(04:50):
to have you on, Joseph.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Thank you so much, Carol, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I have to tell you that your group has some
big goals. Those are some wide ranging achievements that you
guys are hoping to get to. What made you start
this group.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
Well, my background is in the study of the Middle East,
and I've been living and working in Arab countries and
Iran for the past thirty years. And one of the
things that one learns very quickly is that despite the
projections and coverage of extremism, violence and terror, there are
(05:30):
so many people who just want a different future and
have the courage to press for it, but they've been
denied the opportunity. They've been denied a platform, organizational tools,
and other things that are essential while they're Islamist and
militant rivals are funded and armed to the chiefs. So
(05:51):
what we try to do is fill that gap a
little bit by providing our moral support, but also are
helping amplifying their voices, helping them organize and grow their
numbers so that they can begin to rectify the imbalance
in these societies.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Do you feel hopeful about that? It's just it sounds
so unachievable right now. It seems further away than ever.
I think a lot of people that used to have
peace as a goal in the Middle East are kind
of like, I don't think this will ever happen, and
now we should just prepare for not war, necessarily not
hot war, but just to constantly be on guard and
(06:36):
that the piece goal is completely off the table.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, there's reason to be helpful if you take a
longer look at what's happened in the past few decades.
One sterling example is the UAE, and I bring it
up because when I first lived there in nineteen ninety
nine as a graduate student, the Muslim Brotherhood was the
dominant cultural force in the country, and over a twenty
(07:06):
year period, that government set out to systematically change the
culture of the UAE to empower elements within the society
they didn't want what the brother had had to sell,
changed the schools, the nature of religious indoctrination and media
(07:27):
incitement into something much more constructive, and over time it
really has changed the fabric of the society and paved
the way to a more peaceful environment for people all
over the world. So these kinds of changes are possible.
They take top down efforts and grassroots support from the
(07:47):
bottom up, and you have to try because what is
after all the alternatives? You know, military solutions alone don't
fix the problem.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So the Center for Peace Communications recently we had these
videos showing that Gazens support Trump's relocation plan, and that
was a surprise to me. Was it a surprise to
you or did you expect to find that?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
So those videos are a little piece of a much
longer series of testimony that we've been releasing going back
to the beginning of twenty twenty three, and we've platformed
Gosins to share since long before October seventh, to share
what it's like to live under Hamas rule and talk
(08:32):
about their ideas for a different future. And we've platformed
the very brave people who took to the streets in
twenty nineteen and July of twenty twenty three to protest
Hamas rule at great cost to themselves and their families.
So these recent videos were an effort to understand what
(08:54):
Gosins thought of the statements that President Trump made about
the idea of resettlement, voluntary relocation to other countries, perhaps
in the region. And what we found wasn't that surprising. Actually,
the fact that a lot of people, it would seem
the majority of Gaza's today want to take up President
(09:20):
Trump on the opportunity to live elsewhere is a natural
reaction to the terrible conditions of Gaza today. It's the
same human instinct that has led millions of Syrians and
Ukrainians to flee their countries during war. Now in Syria
(09:40):
we see some number of them beginning to come back
under changed conditions. But even before October seventh, there was
a Palestinian poll that showed about a third of the
population of Gaza wanting to migrate in response to corruption
and brute under Hama's rule. And that was when there
(10:04):
was still a semblance of continuity in daily life. And
obviously as the war took its human toll, and there's
some indication that Hamas remains a force to be reckoned
with in the strip. Those are two pieces of really
bad news that makes the desire to find safe haven
(10:25):
even more strong and more broad.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Countries that have taken in Ukrainians or Syrians haven't taken
in Palestinians and anywhere near the same numbers.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
I think that the countries that are pondering this and
setting policies about and toward Gaza need to choose between
helping between the cause of helping Palestinians and alleviating the
suffering in Gaza versus feeding a very militant and ultimately
(10:59):
self destructive definition of a cause as defined by Hamas
that puts the cause and Hamas maintaining power ahead of
the interests of the population. So there's talk of forced migration,
but it's actually a red herring. The real force these
(11:21):
people want safe haven. The force that's being applied is
by Hamas. They're threatening to shoot people if they would
if they try to emigrate, and the reason is the
same reason that they actually did shoot people in northern
Gaza fleeing fighting in the south, because they wanted to
keep them there as human shields. So that's not a
(11:44):
cause anybody should want to serve. But when a majority
of Gazans are saying, President Trump, are you serious? Because
if we had an opportunity to live safely in perhaps
another Arab country or beyond, we would do it. That's
something that the world needs.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
To listen to. Do you think you serious?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Well, I mean, we don't know. There's a lot of
speculation as to whether the purpose of those statements was
to affect negotiations and other discussions about the future of Gaza,
to prompt Arab countries to innovate remedies of their own,
So it's not clear. But what is clear to me
(12:32):
based on hundreds of interviews that we continue to do
every day in Gaza. Is that if these people had
the opportunity, if that border opened, it would look like
the fall of the Berlin Wall. It would be a
human deluge of people seeking a better life. And as
one person put it, if so much as a crack
(12:54):
opened in that wall, Gazans would rush to break it down.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Did you always want to be in this kind of space,
like when you were a kid, what did you want
to be?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I've always been interested in two things, which are the
use of media and communications to change things for the
better as a cultural driver, and a love of the
Middle East, of the peoples and cultures of the Middle East,
and that dates back to family heritage. My mother was
(13:25):
born in Baghdad to the remnants of the Jewish community
in Iraq that goes back to twenty six hundred years
in the country. And I've been studying the music of
the Middle East which I play, and the history the
culture and really kind of living it all this time.
So it's been a natural and continual development of ideas
(13:51):
and efforts.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Do you get support for your work from the Jewish community?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Is it so? We are funded nonprofit organization that is
funded entirely by American private philanthropy. There's no government support
and there's no foreign funding. And the religion of our
donors actually they're all religious backgrounds, certainly including members of
(14:19):
the Jewish community. And also it's a bipartisan bunch that
straddles Democrats and Republicans.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Really that's interesting, any like, is it fifty to fifty
or is it more of one or the other.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I mean, I'd have to think about that breakdown is
I think the reason why we attract, you know, different
people with different ideas is that the issues that we
bring forward don't divide between right and left. And you know,
(14:55):
these are human causes. I mean, when we're speaking about
the specific issue of the question of resettlement, one of
the other things that these gosins are saying is this
should not be politicized, right, and we were really try
to take that to heart ourselves in the nature of
what we do as well.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
It's interesting. And the reason I ask that is I
think some of my listeners are going to be surprised
that I'm interviewing somebody like you. I just think that
a lot of people again today hear peace or you
know committee, you know, a group that is committed to peace,
and they think, oh, that just means Israel is going
to have to surrender, or oh that just means you know,
a pro Hamas really take And you're not like that.
(15:46):
You're not that at all. So I think it's interesting.
I was just wondering, like who you appeal to initially
or in general. That's that's why I was asking that,
like if it's left or right.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
So it's a good question. Let me give you an
example of how we see this. There are a lot
of people in the US who have been concerned about
a rising protest movement on college campuses that, while ostensibly
concerned about the Palestinians, has been in effect pro Hamas.
(16:25):
So the voices that we bring out from the region
are presenting a challenge to those people and urging them
to choose between supporting Hamas and supporting the people who
are suffering under the rule of Hamas in Gaza. And
that is you know, it's a nuance. It's not really
(16:46):
a nuance. It's a crucial distinction that makes all of
the difference. You know, where are your humanitarian instincts being directed?
And Hamas works to manipulate people into serving them when
they're really the most inhumane actor in the area.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
What do you worry about, Well.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
I worry that the opportunity to empower people who want
a different future will be missed. And the reason is that,
you know, democratic countries in the West tend to pursue
a very militarized foreign policy. That is, they do hard
power very well. They know how to develop armies, and
(17:35):
these are essential tools for tools of state craft. But
when it comes to the strategic use of soft power, right,
there's an issue. There's a little bit of a problem
because a lot of the aid organizations and endowments for
(17:56):
democratic development have supported undemocratic forces in many countries, and
there hasn't really been a strategic use of American soft
power to actually strengthen the forces that want to confront
these horrible militias on the ground themselves. And yet these
(18:21):
people are there. They're an essential part of the larger
puzzle of how to defeat these destructive ideologies. And the
opportunity I worry about people missing is engaging these people
figuring out how to strengthen their hand, level the playing field,
(18:42):
and actually win this competition against an ideology that has
brought only death and destruction.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Do you think there's an example of a country that
does use soft power? Well, is there anybody we should
be emulating?
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I think the example, the example that I'd be most
proud of, is the United States at crucial moments in
the Cold War, when we were supporting opponents of Soviet
communism and Stalinism behind the Iron Curtain. We were helping
them by broadcasting the truth into their countries via radio liberty.
(19:21):
We were empowering labor unions to challenge Soviet domination from within.
We were helping public intellectuals, getting them platforms to express
themselves and challenge these ideologies on the basis of rational argumentation,
(19:43):
while we were also employing economic and military tools at
the same time, and that combination, I think is a
big part of what won.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
The Cold War.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
And you know, in advocating for competitive of soft power,
I'm not suggesting something new. I'm suggesting a revival of
a tradition that America once embraced and did very well.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
What advice would you give your sixteen year old self,
What have you learned along the way that he needs
to know.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I guess when I was sixteen and I wanted.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
To where were you age?
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Well, I was in a high school in Providence, Rhode
Island Public High School. I was playing jazz piano. I
was publishing a newspaper, little neighborhood newspaper, and I was
thinking about how to develop a relationship with the peoples
and cultures of the Middle East that would be about
(20:43):
bringing change. And I guess the thing that I worried
about the most was how do you connect with these
distant places and developed sustained relationships while living a balanced
life at the same time, I mean the jet setting
that would be necessary, extensive of travel and so on.
How do you build and maintain bonds of trust with
(21:05):
people all over the Middle East? And to some degree
those problems I don't want to say they solved themselves,
but the availability of WhatsApp and Zoom and so many
tools that we have today enable one to build organizational
relationships and virtual workplaces and things that were inconceivable when
(21:30):
I was sixteen. So I guess I would have told
myself to relax, because sometimes solutions present themselves over time
to things that seem insurmountable in the moment.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Did you feel a connection to Iraq because of your heritage?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Like absolutely feel you, Yeah, deeply connected. And one of
the things that I'm most proud of that we did
as an organization back in September of twenty twenty one
was to go to a to organize a fleet of
sixty cars to bring three hundred and twelve Iraqis from
(22:07):
across the country from Baghdad, Abil Salahadin Dyala from six
governorates to an event hall in northern Iraq where they
collectively and publicly called for peace with Israel and an
end to Iranian domination. And they did this in open
defiance of Iranian militias. And I was one of the
(22:32):
people who gave a speech in Arabic at the event,
but joined by some of the bravest people I've ever met,
including a single mother of five who risked everything to
give what turned out to be the most stirring speech
of the evening. Hesbila declared war on the conference. Hassan
Nasralla himself made a speech calling for an all out
(22:55):
assault on the people who had stood up to do this.
We had a plan in place to protect them. It succeeded,
and it just was a public display of this trend.
I'm talking about the fact that three hundred people stood
up and called for normalization with Israel in a place
like Iraq surrounded by militias. Speaks to the vast number
(23:19):
of people who share their aspirations if they don't have
quite as much courage.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
It's actually amazing to me that you feel that connection
to Iraq. I was born in the former Soviet Union.
I was born in Russia, but my father's from Ukraine.
I mean, just the way that they treated Jews, it
makes me not feel that warm towards either country. And
you know, I wonder about the fact that you still
want to help a country that wasn't great to your family.
(23:49):
I'm sure it's kind of amazing to me. And what
do you think, where do you think it comes from?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Well, it's a mixed historical legacy. Well, it's a very
long history. It dates back twenty six hundred years to
the destruction of the Temple of Solomon and the Babylonian exile.
And so although it ended very badly, the Farahud of
nineteen forty one was a terrible massacre of Jews, and
(24:17):
that accelerated the end of twenty six hundred years of
Iraqi Jewish history. You know, there were many long periods
of coexistence. Iraqi Jews helped build the Iraqi state. The
first Treasury Minister of Iraq, who persuaded the British to
(24:41):
compensate Iraq for its oil in gold, was an Iraqi Jew.
Most of the players of the Iraqi National Orchestra were Jews.
They migrated with one hundred and fifty thousand others to
Israel and became the voice of Israel Arabic Orchestra, which
enjoyed it very large audience in the Middle East into
(25:02):
the sixties and seventies. So there are these lingering friendships
and positive memories in addition to the virulent strand of
Jew hatred that was always there and that spiked considerably
in the twentieth century when powerful forces began to bankroll them,
(25:25):
beginning with the Nazis, who were in some ways orchestrating
through proxies, that terrible massacre. So, you know, the kind
of support that we want to provide to Iraqis is
a support that is based on peace and partnership between
(25:47):
the Israeli and the Iraqi people. We believe that that
is in the interest of both countries. We believe that
those who oppose co development, regional integration and so on
are the ones who harmed Iraq, and the ones who
stand for peace and development, those are the ones who
need to be helped. So it's a kind of a
(26:08):
specific kind of aspiration and it's something I believe in
very deeply.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Well, this has been super interesting. I had no idea
where this was going to go, so I really enjoyed
our conversation. And here with your best tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Well, I mean my experience has been to focus. I mean,
I have a sense of who I am, and I've
given a lot of thought to my place in the world,
but overwhelmingly I focus outward on listening to people, on
understanding others on their own terms, rather than projecting my
(26:51):
own identity and sensibilities onto them. So I would stress
the importance of looking outward at least as much as
we as we think inward.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I love that he is Joseph Browdie. His group is
Center for Peace Communications. Check out their work. It's super interesting.
Thank you so much for coming on Joseph.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Thank you, Carol, Thanks so much for joining us on
The Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
A lot of you agreed with the advice I gave
the couple who wrote in last week to recap.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
A woman wrote in saying she's thirty two and her
boyfriend is thirty six. They've been dating for six years,
and she wrote in with the concern that despite the
fact that they've voted similarly, they're both Republicans who voted
for Trump, she's moving rightward and he's moving leftward. I
told them that politics wasn't actually their problem. It's that
(00:35):
they've been together for six years and are not engaged,
not moving forward, and a lot of you agreed with that.
I had lunch with a new friend this week and
we talked relationships and how I think it's the moving
forward together that really keeps a relationship going. I'm married
for nearly sixteen years, but we're constantly thinking about our future.
(00:57):
What are our summer plans, not just this summer, but
also summer twenty twenty six. Our youngest child is nine,
but what are we thinking for when the kids are
out of the house. How long will we stay in
our current house? It'll be too big for us, But
We also love the idea of them having a comfortable
home to come back to whenever they want and bring
(01:19):
our grandkids back too. I know, life happens, and the
future you picture doesn't always work out the way you
think it will. It's a common story. I'm not saying
that moving forward immediately inoculates you from that. Plenty of
people have been married twenty years, thirty years, pictured their
future lives together and had it end abruptly. It happens,
(01:43):
I know. But it helps when you're looking outward in
the same direction. It helps sustain your current relationship to
think about the future together. I would say that while
building toward a future together doesn't one hundred percent mean
that the future will will work out the way you intend.
If you're not building together, then that is probably a problem.
(02:06):
You should be a team. You're a unit. And so
many people, you know, I've heard this over the years
say things like they love the whole. Oh but Woody
Allen and Mia Farrow waved at each other from their
own individual apartments across Central Park. You don't have to
live together, you don't have to tie your lives to
each other, and you could still be together. Sure, but
we know how their story ends. And while not every
(02:29):
relationship like that will end up with the guy marrying
his girlfriend's daughter, I've never heard of a relationship that
isn't moving forward that ends up working out. And yes,
I do mean moving forward with all the traditional markers
of marriage, living together, tying your lives together. Officially I
gave them advice last episode, but if the couple who
(02:51):
wrote in are listening, I would add that you shouldn't
try to rewrite how relationships work. This thing has been
working the way it has. This plan has existed for
hundreds of years. Keep moving forward together. Thanks for listening.
Coming up my interview with Joseph Browdie. But first, after
more than a year of war, terror and pain in Israel,
(03:15):
all of Israel is broken hearted after learning of the
tragic deaths of the Beavers children who were held hostage
in Gaza, and so many are still herding throughout the
Holy Land, where the need for aid continues to grow.
The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has supported and
continues to support the families of hostages and other victims
(03:38):
of the October seventh terror attacks. With your help. IFCJ
has provided financial and emotional help to hostages and their families,
and to those healing and rebuilding their broken homes and
broken bodies. But the real work is just beginning. Your
gift will help provide critically needed support to families in
(03:58):
Israel whose lives continue to be destroyed by terror and
uncertainty as Israel remains surrounded by enemies. Give a gift
to bless Israel and her people by visiting SUPPORTIFCJ dot org.
One word support IFCJ dot org or call eight eight
eight four eight eight IFCJ. That's eight eight eight four
(04:23):
eight eight IFCJ.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
And welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is Joseph Browdie. Joseph is president and
founder of Center for Peace Communications, a nonprofit group who
partners with Gaza and countries across the Middle East to
help tell the stories of the people who want to
be free from brutal conditions of terrorist control. So nice
(04:50):
to have you on, Joseph.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Thank you so much, Carol, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I have to tell you that your group has some
big goals. Those are some wide ranging achievements that you
guys are hoping to get to. What made you start
this group.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
Well, my background is in the study of the Middle East,
and I've been living and working in Arab countries and
Iran for the past thirty years. And one of the
things that one learns very quickly is that despite the
projections and coverage of extremism, violence and terror, there are
(05:30):
so many people who just want a different future and
have the courage to press for it, but they've been
denied the opportunity. They've been denied a platform, organizational tools,
and other things that are essential while they're Islamist and
militant rivals are funded and armed to the chiefs. So
(05:51):
what we try to do is fill that gap a
little bit by providing our moral support, but also are
helping amplifying their voices, helping them organize and grow their
numbers so that they can begin to rectify the imbalance
in these societies.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Do you feel hopeful about that? It's just it sounds
so unachievable right now. It seems further away than ever.
I think a lot of people that used to have
peace as a goal in the Middle East are kind
of like, I don't think this will ever happen, and
now we should just prepare for not war, necessarily not
hot war, but just to constantly be on guard and
(06:36):
that the piece goal is completely off the table.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, there's reason to be helpful if you take a
longer look at what's happened in the past few decades.
One sterling example is the UAE, and I bring it
up because when I first lived there in nineteen ninety
nine as a graduate student, the Muslim Brotherhood was the
dominant cultural force in the country, and over a twenty
(07:06):
year period, that government set out to systematically change the
culture of the UAE to empower elements within the society
they didn't want what the brother had had to sell,
changed the schools, the nature of religious indoctrination and media
(07:27):
incitement into something much more constructive, and over time it
really has changed the fabric of the society and paved
the way to a more peaceful environment for people all
over the world. So these kinds of changes are possible.
They take top down efforts and grassroots support from the
(07:47):
bottom up, and you have to try because what is
after all the alternatives? You know, military solutions alone don't
fix the problem.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So the Center for Peace Communications recently we had these
videos showing that Gazens support Trump's relocation plan, and that
was a surprise to me. Was it a surprise to
you or did you expect to find that?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
So those videos are a little piece of a much
longer series of testimony that we've been releasing going back
to the beginning of twenty twenty three, and we've platformed
Gosins to share since long before October seventh, to share
what it's like to live under Hamas rule and talk
(08:32):
about their ideas for a different future. And we've platformed
the very brave people who took to the streets in
twenty nineteen and July of twenty twenty three to protest
Hamas rule at great cost to themselves and their families.
So these recent videos were an effort to understand what
(08:54):
Gosins thought of the statements that President Trump made about
the idea of resettlement, voluntary relocation to other countries, perhaps
in the region. And what we found wasn't that surprising. Actually,
the fact that a lot of people, it would seem
the majority of Gaza's today want to take up President
(09:20):
Trump on the opportunity to live elsewhere is a natural
reaction to the terrible conditions of Gaza today. It's the
same human instinct that has led millions of Syrians and
Ukrainians to flee their countries during war. Now in Syria
(09:40):
we see some number of them beginning to come back
under changed conditions. But even before October seventh, there was
a Palestinian poll that showed about a third of the
population of Gaza wanting to migrate in response to corruption
and brute under Hama's rule. And that was when there
(10:04):
was still a semblance of continuity in daily life. And
obviously as the war took its human toll, and there's
some indication that Hamas remains a force to be reckoned
with in the strip. Those are two pieces of really
bad news that makes the desire to find safe haven
(10:25):
even more strong and more broad.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Countries that have taken in Ukrainians or Syrians haven't taken
in Palestinians and anywhere near the same numbers.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
I think that the countries that are pondering this and
setting policies about and toward Gaza need to choose between
helping between the cause of helping Palestinians and alleviating the
suffering in Gaza versus feeding a very militant and ultimately
(10:59):
self destructive definition of a cause as defined by Hamas
that puts the cause and Hamas maintaining power ahead of
the interests of the population. So there's talk of forced migration,
but it's actually a red herring. The real force these
(11:21):
people want safe haven. The force that's being applied is
by Hamas. They're threatening to shoot people if they would
if they try to emigrate, and the reason is the
same reason that they actually did shoot people in northern
Gaza fleeing fighting in the south, because they wanted to
keep them there as human shields. So that's not a
(11:44):
cause anybody should want to serve. But when a majority
of Gazans are saying, President Trump, are you serious? Because
if we had an opportunity to live safely in perhaps
another Arab country or beyond, we would do it. That's
something that the world needs.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
To listen to. Do you think you serious?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Well, I mean, we don't know. There's a lot of
speculation as to whether the purpose of those statements was
to affect negotiations and other discussions about the future of Gaza,
to prompt Arab countries to innovate remedies of their own,
So it's not clear. But what is clear to me
(12:32):
based on hundreds of interviews that we continue to do
every day in Gaza. Is that if these people had
the opportunity, if that border opened, it would look like
the fall of the Berlin Wall. It would be a
human deluge of people seeking a better life. And as
one person put it, if so much as a crack
(12:54):
opened in that wall, Gazans would rush to break it down.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Did you always want to be in this kind of space,
like when you were a kid, what did you want
to be?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I've always been interested in two things, which are the
use of media and communications to change things for the
better as a cultural driver, and a love of the
Middle East, of the peoples and cultures of the Middle East,
and that dates back to family heritage. My mother was
(13:25):
born in Baghdad to the remnants of the Jewish community
in Iraq that goes back to twenty six hundred years
in the country. And I've been studying the music of
the Middle East which I play, and the history the
culture and really kind of living it all this time.
So it's been a natural and continual development of ideas
(13:51):
and efforts.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Do you get support for your work from the Jewish community?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Is it so? We are funded nonprofit organization that is
funded entirely by American private philanthropy. There's no government support
and there's no foreign funding. And the religion of our
donors actually they're all religious backgrounds, certainly including members of
(14:19):
the Jewish community. And also it's a bipartisan bunch that
straddles Democrats and Republicans.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Really that's interesting, any like, is it fifty to fifty
or is it more of one or the other.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I mean, I'd have to think about that breakdown is
I think the reason why we attract, you know, different
people with different ideas is that the issues that we
bring forward don't divide between right and left. And you know,
(14:55):
these are human causes. I mean, when we're speaking about
the specific issue of the question of resettlement, one of
the other things that these gosins are saying is this
should not be politicized, right, and we were really try
to take that to heart ourselves in the nature of
what we do as well.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
It's interesting. And the reason I ask that is I
think some of my listeners are going to be surprised
that I'm interviewing somebody like you. I just think that
a lot of people again today hear peace or you
know committee, you know, a group that is committed to peace,
and they think, oh, that just means Israel is going
to have to surrender, or oh that just means you know,
a pro Hamas really take And you're not like that.
(15:46):
You're not that at all. So I think it's interesting.
I was just wondering, like who you appeal to initially
or in general. That's that's why I was asking that,
like if it's left or right.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
So it's a good question. Let me give you an
example of how we see this. There are a lot
of people in the US who have been concerned about
a rising protest movement on college campuses that, while ostensibly
concerned about the Palestinians, has been in effect pro Hamas.
(16:25):
So the voices that we bring out from the region
are presenting a challenge to those people and urging them
to choose between supporting Hamas and supporting the people who
are suffering under the rule of Hamas in Gaza. And
that is you know, it's a nuance. It's not really
(16:46):
a nuance. It's a crucial distinction that makes all of
the difference. You know, where are your humanitarian instincts being directed?
And Hamas works to manipulate people into serving them when
they're really the most inhumane actor in the area.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
What do you worry about, Well.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
I worry that the opportunity to empower people who want
a different future will be missed. And the reason is that,
you know, democratic countries in the West tend to pursue
a very militarized foreign policy. That is, they do hard
power very well. They know how to develop armies, and
(17:35):
these are essential tools for tools of state craft. But
when it comes to the strategic use of soft power, right,
there's an issue. There's a little bit of a problem
because a lot of the aid organizations and endowments for
(17:56):
democratic development have supported undemocratic forces in many countries, and
there hasn't really been a strategic use of American soft
power to actually strengthen the forces that want to confront
these horrible militias on the ground themselves. And yet these
(18:21):
people are there. They're an essential part of the larger
puzzle of how to defeat these destructive ideologies. And the
opportunity I worry about people missing is engaging these people
figuring out how to strengthen their hand, level the playing field,
(18:42):
and actually win this competition against an ideology that has
brought only death and destruction.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Do you think there's an example of a country that
does use soft power? Well, is there anybody we should
be emulating?
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I think the example, the example that I'd be most
proud of, is the United States at crucial moments in
the Cold War, when we were supporting opponents of Soviet
communism and Stalinism behind the Iron Curtain. We were helping
them by broadcasting the truth into their countries via radio liberty.
(19:21):
We were empowering labor unions to challenge Soviet domination from within.
We were helping public intellectuals, getting them platforms to express
themselves and challenge these ideologies on the basis of rational argumentation,
(19:43):
while we were also employing economic and military tools at
the same time, and that combination, I think is a
big part of what won.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
The Cold War.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
And you know, in advocating for competitive of soft power,
I'm not suggesting something new. I'm suggesting a revival of
a tradition that America once embraced and did very well.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
What advice would you give your sixteen year old self,
What have you learned along the way that he needs
to know.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I guess when I was sixteen and I wanted.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
To where were you age?
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Well, I was in a high school in Providence, Rhode
Island Public High School. I was playing jazz piano. I
was publishing a newspaper, little neighborhood newspaper, and I was
thinking about how to develop a relationship with the peoples
and cultures of the Middle East that would be about
(20:43):
bringing change. And I guess the thing that I worried
about the most was how do you connect with these
distant places and developed sustained relationships while living a balanced
life at the same time, I mean the jet setting
that would be necessary, extensive of travel and so on.
How do you build and maintain bonds of trust with
(21:05):
people all over the Middle East? And to some degree
those problems I don't want to say they solved themselves,
but the availability of WhatsApp and Zoom and so many
tools that we have today enable one to build organizational
relationships and virtual workplaces and things that were inconceivable when
(21:30):
I was sixteen. So I guess I would have told
myself to relax, because sometimes solutions present themselves over time
to things that seem insurmountable in the moment.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Did you feel a connection to Iraq because of your heritage?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Like absolutely feel you, Yeah, deeply connected. And one of
the things that I'm most proud of that we did
as an organization back in September of twenty twenty one
was to go to a to organize a fleet of
sixty cars to bring three hundred and twelve Iraqis from
(22:07):
across the country from Baghdad, Abil Salahadin Dyala from six
governorates to an event hall in northern Iraq where they
collectively and publicly called for peace with Israel and an
end to Iranian domination. And they did this in open
defiance of Iranian militias. And I was one of the
(22:32):
people who gave a speech in Arabic at the event,
but joined by some of the bravest people I've ever met,
including a single mother of five who risked everything to
give what turned out to be the most stirring speech
of the evening. Hesbila declared war on the conference. Hassan
Nasralla himself made a speech calling for an all out
(22:55):
assault on the people who had stood up to do this.
We had a plan in place to protect them. It succeeded,
and it just was a public display of this trend.
I'm talking about the fact that three hundred people stood
up and called for normalization with Israel in a place
like Iraq surrounded by militias. Speaks to the vast number
(23:19):
of people who share their aspirations if they don't have
quite as much courage.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
It's actually amazing to me that you feel that connection
to Iraq. I was born in the former Soviet Union.
I was born in Russia, but my father's from Ukraine.
I mean, just the way that they treated Jews, it
makes me not feel that warm towards either country. And
you know, I wonder about the fact that you still
want to help a country that wasn't great to your family.
(23:49):
I'm sure it's kind of amazing to me. And what
do you think, where do you think it comes from?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Well, it's a mixed historical legacy. Well, it's a very
long history. It dates back twenty six hundred years to
the destruction of the Temple of Solomon and the Babylonian exile.
And so although it ended very badly, the Farahud of
nineteen forty one was a terrible massacre of Jews, and
(24:17):
that accelerated the end of twenty six hundred years of
Iraqi Jewish history. You know, there were many long periods
of coexistence. Iraqi Jews helped build the Iraqi state. The
first Treasury Minister of Iraq, who persuaded the British to
(24:41):
compensate Iraq for its oil in gold, was an Iraqi Jew.
Most of the players of the Iraqi National Orchestra were Jews.
They migrated with one hundred and fifty thousand others to
Israel and became the voice of Israel Arabic Orchestra, which
enjoyed it very large audience in the Middle East into
(25:02):
the sixties and seventies. So there are these lingering friendships
and positive memories in addition to the virulent strand of
Jew hatred that was always there and that spiked considerably
in the twentieth century when powerful forces began to bankroll them,
(25:25):
beginning with the Nazis, who were in some ways orchestrating
through proxies, that terrible massacre. So, you know, the kind
of support that we want to provide to Iraqis is
a support that is based on peace and partnership between
(25:47):
the Israeli and the Iraqi people. We believe that that
is in the interest of both countries. We believe that
those who oppose co development, regional integration and so on
are the ones who harmed Iraq, and the ones who
stand for peace and development, those are the ones who
need to be helped. So it's a kind of a
(26:08):
specific kind of aspiration and it's something I believe in
very deeply.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Well, this has been super interesting. I had no idea
where this was going to go, so I really enjoyed
our conversation. And here with your best tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Well, I mean my experience has been to focus. I mean,
I have a sense of who I am, and I've
given a lot of thought to my place in the world,
but overwhelmingly I focus outward on listening to people, on
understanding others on their own terms, rather than projecting my
(26:51):
own identity and sensibilities onto them. So I would stress
the importance of looking outward at least as much as
we as we think inward.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I love that he is Joseph Browdie. His group is
Center for Peace Communications. Check out their work. It's super interesting.
Thank you so much for coming on Joseph.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Thank you, Carol, Thanks so much for joining us on
The Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Karol Markowicz
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