August 19, 2024 • 29 mins
Caroline Downey, staff writer at National Review, discusses her journey in conservative media and the importance of preserving freedom and patriotism. Karol also talks to Caroline about the cultural challenges of today, such as the neglect of children, the lack of strong communities, and the difficulties of dating. Caroline emphasizes the need to consume uplifting and soul-improving content. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
I was looking for something else and I came across
this pupil from February the kind of thing that I'm
totally into that I found very interesting. Among adults ages
eighteen to thirty four, sixty nine percent of those who
(00:27):
have never been married say they want to get married
one day. Only about eight percent say a definitive they
don't want to get married. Sorry, I'm still a little
under the weather. My voice is just not recovering. Men
and women are about equally likely to say they want
to get married, which that sounds great. At least they're
sort of aligned on that issue. But when it comes
(00:50):
to having kids, the numbers skew. When asked about having
children again, fifty one percent of young adults who are
not parents say they want to have children one day,
three and ten say they're not sure, and eighteen percent
say they don't want to have children. But here's the
interesting part. While fifty seven percent of young men say
(01:10):
they want children one day, a smaller share of young
women forty five percent say the same. This is a
real shift. Think about it. It was always women dragging
men along. To the altar and moving along on the
baby making. That was always the picture that we had
of how relationships worked. Something has really changed now. The
(01:34):
usual explanation we hear for this is that women know
they'll have to do the bulk of the work when
there's a kid, and so they don't want to do it.
And this is seen as some kind of like anti man.
You know, they just don't put in the kind of
effort that women do. But what did men put in
more effort in the past? No, they do more today
than ever before. And did women in history not know
(01:58):
that they were going to be the primary caregivers, that
they were going to be the ones sort of doing
most of the parenting, Probably more in the past than
right now. So is that really the truth? Is it
that women are afraid of subsuming their lives to a child?
I say not exactly. I think it's the Sex and
(02:20):
the City effect. Childlessness is portrayed as sexy and fun,
while women with children, even Charlotte, a character on the
show who wanted kids so badly, are shown as struggling
through their lives. And I know, Sex and the City
it's an old reference. At this point, Maybe things have changed,
(02:41):
but they really haven't. It's not like newer shows have
shown something else. The show Girls from a few years
ago had one of the girls have a kid on
her own and show how impossibly difficult it was, and look,
it is hard to have kids, but the image we
get of it in popular media is just nowhere near
(03:02):
the truth. I don't know how we change it. It's
hard to portray the happiness of family and happy families
that don't come off as smug marrieds, as Bridget Jones
called it all those years ago. It almost seems like
you're bragging if you show happiness in your family life.
I also think an underrated point is that there's been
(03:25):
a lot of writing and talking over the years about
how loneliness is so deadly for men. I've written years ago,
I think it was twenty eighteen, about how deadly loneliness
can be, especially for men, and there were so many
articles around it at that time, just constant articles about
(03:45):
how even when men do find love and have a family,
some simply don't have friends, and that loneliness is really
bad for their health. Take out the relationship piece and
that problem gets far more severe. On the other hand,
haven't been told, hey, you're going to be lonely if
you don't find a life partner. They're led to believe
(04:07):
that they don't need a spouse at all, that their
girls will always be there for them to have brunch
or go to clubs, and kids are boring and ruin
the good time. I mean, I get believing that in
your twenties and maybe even into your thirties, but anyone
over forty can tell them how rare those outings will
be and how desperately you'll be watching the clock ready
(04:31):
to go to bed by ten pm. Happily, that's actually
me right now, eight forty four pm. Women don't get
a real picture of what life will be like. I
can't think of a single show or movie that portrays
a legitimately happy marriage or family. Yes, the book Anna
Karenna opens with the line, happy families are all alike.
(04:53):
Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. And
maybe people want to hear the unhappy unique story, but
the happy ones they're just as true. Coming up next,
an interview with Caroline Downey. Join us after the break.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Caroline Downey, staff writer at National Review
and visiting fellow at the Independent Women's Forum. Hi, Caroline,
so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
So great to be with you. Carol. So did you get.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Your start at National Review? I feel like that's what
I associate you with so closely.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yes, in the journalism world, I did. I got in
through the ground floor basically as a newswriter. But it
was a really abrupt pivot from finance. Actually that you
know isn't very common, I don't think in conservative media,
but you know, essentially a senior editor at the time
in National Review, Charlie Cook vouched for me because he, yeah,
(05:58):
he moderated this debate I did way back when at
the Heritage Foundation. I was an intern and it was
like the classic libertarian versus conservatism debate that used to
be televised on c SPAN, and it was like defunct
for multiple years because of COVID. Then they brought it back,
but he moderated that, so, you know, I kind of
kept the connection and then I was like, Hey, I'd
(06:19):
love to come to National Review.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Which kind of that debate did you take?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Oh? I was Heritage, it wasn't CATO, but it was
very intense rivalry, though I remember at the time my
internship job description was like, I think I was helping
out with a development office, and I didn't do any
of that because they were giving me coaches and trainers.
I mean, it was a very serious like project between
(06:47):
the two bank tanks. They treated it kind of like
this because it was televised and it had been had
this long standing tradition, so we wanted to be as
prepared as possible. And it was me and this other
debater from a Gettysburg college, and the Cato kids that
were interning and doing the debate were ivy leaguers, so
I kind of felt you out of my league.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
But you know, I'm sure that's not true.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
But it was fine. It was I mean, it is
a very classic debate. I always wondered if they would
stop doing it, partially because now there's so much conflict
within the right that it's almost become moot to almost
spar with libertarians because now we're trying to suss out
the new right and the old right fact right.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So that's sort of why I was like, which side
of that were you want? Because I see heritage just
representing kind of all those sides. There's definitely libertarians at Heritage,
even though it is a kind of more classical conservative institution.
But I absolutely have you know, known libertarians that passed
through there. But do they still do that debate? That's
(07:55):
interesting because I also would think that that sort of defunct.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
So they actually just resurrected it this year, and maybe
that was because of some like intern lobbying. But the
girl who I mean, there's there's two debaters on each side.
So the girl who's representing Heritage this year is actually
a friend of mine from Canada. So she's she's was
born in the US. She's a US citizen, but she
like grew up in Canada, so she has seen the
(08:21):
worst of the Trudeau you know, beame, and I mean
she's extremely articulate and enlightened, and I mean she loves
political philosophy, which was always what the debate was supposed
to be about, was about the philosophies of conservatism versus libertarianism,
which I remember at the time they told me, you know,
it's an ideology, it's not a not a philosophy. You
(08:43):
need to say that it's it's it's very axiomatic and
one size fits all and what you know that was
that was what we were told argue at the time.
But her name is Leanna, and she I kind of
consider her my protege, so I'm like, wow, okay, well
circle great next generation and she probably is a better
wrap for I think the American cause than a lot
(09:04):
of Americans. So, I mean, it's the Canadian thing is
actually a cool characteristic.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So funny. So Leanna, what's her last name?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Gordon?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Okay, yeah, we'll look her up.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Yeah, it's just interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I do think that the people who survive, like you know,
places like Canada as a conservative, they do end up
having kind of the better arguments because they they've had
to fight for it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's like conservatives in liberal colleges or in institutions where
they have to make their arguments really pointed and strong,
and I think that they end up really do end
up representing a far better, stronger view of conservativism than
you know, maybe those of us who had it easier.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yes, no, absolutely, that's sort of what she says. I mean,
just it is it's like a surveillance ish state from
what she tells me. And I forget what region of
the country she lives. In but she's I mean a
lot of people here protests for various reasons. I think
of like billboard Chris very amazing, you know mission he
(10:09):
has there to just like to evade you know, restrictions
on posting billboards that are you know, decrying gender ideology.
He'll literally wear them, which is a great hack and loophole.
When Leanna goes to all of these Canadian protests and
it's definitely way riskier there, I mean, it feels riskier.
(10:29):
I don't know if the the what the penalties are
compared to you know, for protesting in the US, if
things get out of hand or whatever. But I mean,
just to be in that spotlight in Canada, she strikes
me as particularly courageous and Carol, you your background, you know,
like your family, you know, Soviet Union, Like what was
(10:50):
how does what do you think about?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
That's you know, that's sort of what I was thinking of,
is that if you end up being a freedom loving
person in a place where freedom is hard to come by,
you end up having the better arguments for why freedom
is necessary. We take a lot of stuff for granted here,
we just think it's all going to be okay, and
(11:13):
we think that we don't need to preserve some of
the really amazing things about us, just the fact that
so many Americans aren't impressed with the American system. We
have this incredible system that has lasted so long. And
you know, you have these French people, you know, France
will make fun of us for something, and I'll be like,
you've been through five republics in the time that we've
had our one, So you know, relax a little bit
(11:34):
over there, France.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But that's that's what I was thinking of.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And in Britain, you know, in places like Britain where protesters,
you know, if you have a pro British protester, they
could be arrested for racism. And it's like, what, no,
you know, so we take a lot of things for
granted here that I think people freedom loving people around
the world see and appreciate.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yes, And it's nice when you come from another country
and you do have this like you treat our freedom,
it's particularly precious. And so there isn't this like self
hating impulse that a lot of these kind of coddled
westernized nations have, like France. The opening ceremony of the Olympics,
like obviously it was very tragic, very sad. Regardless of
whether it was technically blaspheming or not. Whatever they were
(12:20):
trying to you know, interpret, God knows, but it's just
like it shows that they are like kind of a
self flagellating country that's like deeply ashamed of their tradition
in history. And I mean, yeah, France is a national embarrassment,
not because just because it just debases itself, like it
(12:40):
almost enjoys doing that. And I mean a lot of
Western countries do that.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Right, We're going to take a quick break and be
right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I was in
Vietnam and Thailand and Singapore over the summer, and it
was so interesting to me. I mean, like high it
has tons of problems, lots of issues, lots of you know,
kind of questionable history, but when they talk about their culture,
(13:09):
they're very proud of it, and they're very proud of
their country, and they're very proud of everything. Even you know,
they'll talk about like wars that they lost, but it'll
just be from a point of but you know, we're
trying to rebuild and this is this is where we
are now. And they tell you the stories of their
various kings and just a pride in a country that
(13:31):
you're not allowed to have openly here. And I've always
said this, but I feel like I am allowed to
have it because it's like, oh, you're an immigrant, like whatever,
you could do whatever, you know, But people who were
born here and are so lucky and so blessed, I
don't think that they are allowed to openly be patriotic
lest people think there's something wrong with them.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
No, especially among my generation. If you're not going on
an apology tour all the time for our country, you're
you're weird. Like you know, there's so many things to
be ashamed of, even though it's just unbelievable, like the
programming like from a young age of you know, kids
in K through twelve, Yeah, they grew up just I mean,
curriculum it's so like it wasn't for DeSantis and you know,
(14:12):
kind of restricting that type of curriculum that is like
just again blatantly self hating and just just not accurate. Like,
you know, it's so no wonder that most I think
it's most Americans would would have no interest in defending
their country, you know, or like fighting for their country, right,
(14:34):
I know that's kind of that's also the contentious within
the right today because there's the interventionist or the non interventionist.
But I just say, this is like the daughter of
a Vietnam veteran, who I mean that was like a
conflict that was very you know, I guess it's stale
made and decisive, like didn't go super well, doesn't isn't
tame as a victory. My my dad was one of
(14:54):
those people that came back, and you know, the veterans
did not get a welcome home at all because it
was they felt like they been lied to by the
government and all that. But even with all that clouding
you know, or should be clouding, like my dad's a
view of kind of American foreign policy. Like he he
was fiercely patriotic and could not understand why the young
generation wasn't and why they just don't have this kind
(15:17):
of dedication to country the way all their generations did.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, definitely, And when I was in Vietnam, I had
this thought in my head where no one is worse
off than a country that has won a war against America,
Like you know, Soul for example, is just in a
completely different place than Hanoi, and it's it's really interesting
to me of Iraq, you know, like they if they won,
(15:44):
they're not in a particularly amazing spot. But if you're
a country that has won a war against the United States,
you're you're probably worse off for it. So and it
was also interesting. I didn't I've never thought about it.
But they call it the American War and no, it's
the wow American War.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's wild, like there's a lot
of Vietnam War buffs. Now you know, what's the movie?
I guess it was just the Post. It was about
the Pentagon Papers. I liked that one a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
To check it out. I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I think I think that's what it's called. I think
it was about the the I think it was like
Meryl Street anyway. Yeah, no, foreign policy is like a
can of worms.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But as your what's your beat at National Review.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Well, it's actually not that at all. A lot of
culture culture war. It was education for a long time,
but now it's kind of morphed into you know, more
generalist stuff. And yeah, I think anything relating to cultures,
So I guess that's general ideology. Uh, you know, during COVID.
It was it was critical race theory. It was the
(16:56):
the teachers union, you know, conspiring with the government. It
was the I mean basically your your book, like that
was your book absolutely encapsulated every everything about the corruption
of that time with regards to children, you know, how
children were forsaken. And I think that's a very common
(17:17):
societal trend. We're just you know, neglecting children, you know,
just more and more, whether it's through you know, curriculum,
or locking them out of the classroom, or exposing them
to mature concepts that they are like not cognitively prepared for.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think about when I was growing up and we
were my mom was ridiculed for this, but and maybe
maybe she was sheltering. I don't know. I'm very grateful
she sheltered me. If that's that's the case. She would
not show us certain entertainment content that was adult.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It was to be just a given, like you don't
show kids adult content, yes, because I mean, you are
what you consume.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
It rewires the brain, you know. I think I've interviewed
so many detransitioners at this point, and there's a lot
of kind of common threads I've identified and many others have. Okay,
first of all, they're misdiagnosing autism, that's for sure. Second
of all, these kids probably found something online at a
(18:19):
young age because their parents were not that involved. There
wasn't enough supervision or you know, printal authority, and they
just got lost in a rabbit hole online that was
very perverse or degenerate, and it basically disoriented them to
such a degree where they developed body dysmorphia. And you know,
there's many many things social media, like the comparison trap there.
(18:42):
You know, that's hard enough for adults. It's hard enough
for adults to kind of what's the word, take themselves
out of the social media, you know, kind of dopamine
spikes for validation among your peers. Kids, they have no
idea how to do that. And that's before you even
get to sexual content, which is just you know, when
(19:02):
you're an innocent child and you're still your brain is
so forming, it's just like throws an absolute monkey wrench
into that process.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So, what would you say is our largest cultural problem of.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
All of those?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I mean, okay, so I guess in the in the
vein of kind of we're forsaking the most vulnerable or
those who need our protection, like children. And I think
the reason maybe we're doing that is because there's kind
of an addiction to like convenience, addiction to like we're
just not paying attention to what's important, because I think
we're we're literally addicted to chasing highs and convenience, and
(19:44):
convenience I think was always the purpose of our of
our capitalistic system, or rather like comfort, like we should
be striving to create a prosperous nation where everybody can
enjoy its fruits or or can have the chance to
enjoy its fruits. Sure, but you know, like I think
too much decadence has has led us to we've abandoned
(20:07):
a lot a lot of things. In the process, we've
become like soft, I would say, And yeah, and now
it's all about kind of my immediate needs and wants.
And you know, I always thought that conservatism, what I
was taught, was like the Edmund Burke definition, that it
is about connecting the former generations with the future generations
(20:32):
and the present. So you always have this mind for posterity,
like what would help posterity, Like not what would create
comfort for me right now? But like how am I
going to you know, advance civilization in the future. How
am I going to set them up for success? And
that just isn't at all the mindset now, like not
(20:53):
at all. So yeah, I would say I delayed gratification.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
We don't really know how to do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
No, No, we don't. We definitely, we definitely don't. It's
very immediate, and like I said, it's because we're inundated
with like stimuli that basically teaches us we can have
it all right now, like or you know, I think
it's partially because of online but yeah, no, that's and
my parents are older. They're my dad was you know,
(21:21):
like he passed away, you know, a couple of years ago,
but he, uh like was almost the greatest generation. And
my mom is almost seventy and I'm I mean they
they were grand grandparents as well. So I had kind
of a weird family structure. And I never like loved
that because all my friend's parents had young, like young
parents that were you know, doing activities with them. But
(21:42):
I'm so grateful now because they were so wise and
I felt like I kind of had a grandparent and
a parent like in one Yeah, and just to be
raised by someone who saw a different, like a drastically
different time. I mean, you know, your your parents, I think,
were also from from that air.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Although I'm a lot older than you.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, yeah, no, I know. I mean my dad was
eighty three when he passed, and it's I wouldn't have
traded that for anything, because I have an immense gratitude
for kind of the morals of a different era. Of course,
there were problems, but there were huge There were huge
(22:22):
problems in those you know decades, fifties, sixty seventies, but
they my parents always talked about how like you talk
about the dating landscape today, and how how awful it
is for my generation. And the question is why. I
remember when I started navigating that world, my mom had
no idea what I was talking about. She's like, what
do you what do you mean? It's like that challenging
(22:43):
you know, you just find a nice man and then
you just settle down. I'm like, you don't understand, mom.
I feel like I'm in a silo and I have
to find this exact kind of recipe, not recipe like
these like these check boxes, not of superficial qual but
like internal qualities. I have to make sure like that
(23:03):
they have similar ideas, like similar worldview, you know, reverence
or respect for their family. I mean there's a lot
of things that are not givens today. To me, are
no negotiable, no negotiables, and they used to be just
accepted as fact. My mom said, like, you know, neighbors
would often like get along or maybe you date, like
within the town, because people were much more closely tied together.
(23:26):
There was something uniting a lot of people. And maybe
maybe she's exaggerating, but I think I.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Think she's probably not, and I think that that's something
that we're definitely missing.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I I kind of I mean, you know, not ta.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Vera's too off check. But I always wonder about why
people don't date, you know, more within their own communities,
like why it has to be somebody far away or
outside of their universe. Of course, there are obviously still
enclaves or people do date within the communities. But that's
also why I think it's so important to forge those
(23:58):
communities for your kids, like maybe that they'll meet somebody
like that and you'll have similar values and it'll be
an easier process.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yeah, no, there have to. I think there has to
be stronger communities. I mean those are like those mediating
institutions that I mean, like Toauqueville talked about, and those
are those are the bulwarks first of all against many
you know, societal ills like yeah, whether that's you know
that social media influence or that's government you know, intervention
(24:28):
like strong community just is a repellent to all of
that because you're not your recourse is within your inner circle,
like that's where you go for help and assistance. And yeah,
I mean there's like no such thing today in dating
among my generation, or I don't see it. A lot
of like referrals or what's the word, like.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Like setting people up. I think that that's lacking for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
You know, I don't see that. I mean, it's all
apps because nobody is saying and nobody is bridging that gap.
And there also isn't really that third space between work
and leisure or working home rather yeah, working home. There's
really not really a third place where people can go.
And the bar is not exactly substitute for that. I'm
talking about a nice dinner party or you know, it's
(25:12):
maybe like a pickleball outing on a rooftop. I don't know,
you know what I mean, Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
You have kind of a very interesting career. I feel
like you are definitely going places. Do you feel like
you've made it?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
No, not at all, but you're very grateful for the journey.
I am just I think the how I can't say
I've made it because I don't think you know, does
anyone really feel like they've made it?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Well? Well, I ask all my guests that question, and
I get a very large range of answers. But yeah, absolutely,
some people say, yes, I've made it, I'm done, I'm good,
Oh wow, this is where I want to be well,
and it's never there's no rhyme or reason to it.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
So I think I have the privilege of working with
extremely brilliant minds that I'm constantly learning from. And I
know I haven't made it because I haven't stopped learning. Uh,
and I there's a lot more I have to learn,
and so that is not finished product at all. So
professionally no, But I mean I wear a lot of
(26:18):
hats like you know, TV, punditry now and investigative journalism,
and I'm kind of dabbling in all these areas and
I haven't like perfected or mastered any of them. And
I guess the question going forward is whether I should
just kind of double down in one area and just
stick with it, or or or keep exploring all the
different sides of you know, of media and are I
(26:42):
guess whatever whatever corner, whatever industry you would call this,
I'm not. Actually, I think it's this thing we do,
this thing we do, but you know, like socially and
like romantically, spiritually, i'd say it like almost well almost
made it. You know. I feel like I'm blessed with
you know, wonderful significant other, wonderful wonderful friends that are
(27:04):
like a culmination of a lot of like soul searching
and figuring out, you know, who I am. In college,
there were a lot of friends of convenience. Didn't have
really any any any strong compatibility with I guess you
could say, because it was all just you know, friends
of the friends, friends of utility or their sunshine.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Very typical of college. Yes, yeah, right is on your
dorm floor, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yes, Then as you get older, you start to look
for friends who share your values, and that's that's really important.
And you know, shout out to Hillsdale College. I didn't
go to Hillsdale College, but pretty much all my friends
are from there I Hillsdale.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I know, they're just amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Hillsdale gave me pretty much. I mean not only my
my boyfriend, but all my like all my friends because
they're just on the same wavelength. And yeah, pretty cool.
So yeah, well I love.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Talking to Caroline. This has been so awesome. And here
with your best tip for my listeners on how they
can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
So I'll tie it a bow on this. I would
just say, consume content that uplifts and energizes and improves
your soul, not garbage that is going to like corrode
your soul. And I think we need to be It
sounds like a juvenile piece of advice because it's like,
you know, what are we iPad kids? You know, we
(28:26):
can't we can't pull away from a screen. It's like no,
you know, whether it's reading or watching that you just
have to be very very careful about what you're consuming
because I mean you can get really lost on Twitter
doom scrolling, thinking everything's apocalyptic. Yeah, and you just have
to be able to withdraw and you know, realize what's
important and yeah, only like just try to try to
(28:49):
avoid things that are gonna, don't know, be toxic to you,
bump you out, Yeah yeah, Thank.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
You, Caroline, Caroline Downey read her at National Review. Thanks
so much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Thank you, Carol, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So much for joining us on The Carol Markowitz Show.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
I was looking for something else and I came across
this pupil from February the kind of thing that I'm
totally into that I found very interesting. Among adults ages
eighteen to thirty four, sixty nine percent of those who
(00:27):
have never been married say they want to get married
one day. Only about eight percent say a definitive they
don't want to get married. Sorry, I'm still a little
under the weather. My voice is just not recovering. Men
and women are about equally likely to say they want
to get married, which that sounds great. At least they're
sort of aligned on that issue. But when it comes
(00:50):
to having kids, the numbers skew. When asked about having
children again, fifty one percent of young adults who are
not parents say they want to have children one day,
three and ten say they're not sure, and eighteen percent
say they don't want to have children. But here's the
interesting part. While fifty seven percent of young men say
(01:10):
they want children one day, a smaller share of young
women forty five percent say the same. This is a
real shift. Think about it. It was always women dragging
men along. To the altar and moving along on the
baby making. That was always the picture that we had
of how relationships worked. Something has really changed now. The
(01:34):
usual explanation we hear for this is that women know
they'll have to do the bulk of the work when
there's a kid, and so they don't want to do it.
And this is seen as some kind of like anti man.
You know, they just don't put in the kind of
effort that women do. But what did men put in
more effort in the past? No, they do more today
than ever before. And did women in history not know
(01:58):
that they were going to be the primary caregivers, that
they were going to be the ones sort of doing
most of the parenting, Probably more in the past than
right now. So is that really the truth? Is it
that women are afraid of subsuming their lives to a child?
I say not exactly. I think it's the Sex and
(02:20):
the City effect. Childlessness is portrayed as sexy and fun,
while women with children, even Charlotte, a character on the
show who wanted kids so badly, are shown as struggling
through their lives. And I know, Sex and the City
it's an old reference. At this point, Maybe things have changed,
(02:41):
but they really haven't. It's not like newer shows have
shown something else. The show Girls from a few years
ago had one of the girls have a kid on
her own and show how impossibly difficult it was, and look,
it is hard to have kids, but the image we
get of it in popular media is just nowhere near
(03:02):
the truth. I don't know how we change it. It's
hard to portray the happiness of family and happy families
that don't come off as smug marrieds, as Bridget Jones
called it all those years ago. It almost seems like
you're bragging if you show happiness in your family life.
I also think an underrated point is that there's been
(03:25):
a lot of writing and talking over the years about
how loneliness is so deadly for men. I've written years ago,
I think it was twenty eighteen, about how deadly loneliness
can be, especially for men, and there were so many
articles around it at that time, just constant articles about
(03:45):
how even when men do find love and have a family,
some simply don't have friends, and that loneliness is really
bad for their health. Take out the relationship piece and
that problem gets far more severe. On the other hand,
haven't been told, hey, you're going to be lonely if
you don't find a life partner. They're led to believe
(04:07):
that they don't need a spouse at all, that their
girls will always be there for them to have brunch
or go to clubs, and kids are boring and ruin
the good time. I mean, I get believing that in
your twenties and maybe even into your thirties, but anyone
over forty can tell them how rare those outings will
be and how desperately you'll be watching the clock ready
(04:31):
to go to bed by ten pm. Happily, that's actually
me right now, eight forty four pm. Women don't get
a real picture of what life will be like. I
can't think of a single show or movie that portrays
a legitimately happy marriage or family. Yes, the book Anna
Karenna opens with the line, happy families are all alike.
(04:53):
Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. And
maybe people want to hear the unhappy unique story, but
the happy ones they're just as true. Coming up next,
an interview with Caroline Downey. Join us after the break.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Caroline Downey, staff writer at National Review
and visiting fellow at the Independent Women's Forum. Hi, Caroline,
so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
So great to be with you. Carol. So did you get.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Your start at National Review? I feel like that's what
I associate you with so closely.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yes, in the journalism world, I did. I got in
through the ground floor basically as a newswriter. But it
was a really abrupt pivot from finance. Actually that you
know isn't very common, I don't think in conservative media,
but you know, essentially a senior editor at the time
in National Review, Charlie Cook vouched for me because he, yeah,
(05:58):
he moderated this debate I did way back when at
the Heritage Foundation. I was an intern and it was
like the classic libertarian versus conservatism debate that used to
be televised on c SPAN, and it was like defunct
for multiple years because of COVID. Then they brought it back,
but he moderated that, so, you know, I kind of
kept the connection and then I was like, Hey, I'd
(06:19):
love to come to National Review.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Which kind of that debate did you take?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Oh? I was Heritage, it wasn't CATO, but it was
very intense rivalry, though I remember at the time my
internship job description was like, I think I was helping
out with a development office, and I didn't do any
of that because they were giving me coaches and trainers.
I mean, it was a very serious like project between
(06:47):
the two bank tanks. They treated it kind of like
this because it was televised and it had been had
this long standing tradition, so we wanted to be as
prepared as possible. And it was me and this other
debater from a Gettysburg college, and the Cato kids that
were interning and doing the debate were ivy leaguers, so
I kind of felt you out of my league.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
But you know, I'm sure that's not true.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
But it was fine. It was I mean, it is
a very classic debate. I always wondered if they would
stop doing it, partially because now there's so much conflict
within the right that it's almost become moot to almost
spar with libertarians because now we're trying to suss out
the new right and the old right fact right.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So that's sort of why I was like, which side
of that were you want? Because I see heritage just
representing kind of all those sides. There's definitely libertarians at Heritage,
even though it is a kind of more classical conservative institution.
But I absolutely have you know, known libertarians that passed
through there. But do they still do that debate? That's
(07:55):
interesting because I also would think that that sort of defunct.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
So they actually just resurrected it this year, and maybe
that was because of some like intern lobbying. But the
girl who I mean, there's there's two debaters on each side.
So the girl who's representing Heritage this year is actually
a friend of mine from Canada. So she's she's was
born in the US. She's a US citizen, but she
like grew up in Canada, so she has seen the
(08:21):
worst of the Trudeau you know, beame, and I mean
she's extremely articulate and enlightened, and I mean she loves
political philosophy, which was always what the debate was supposed
to be about, was about the philosophies of conservatism versus libertarianism,
which I remember at the time they told me, you know,
it's an ideology, it's not a not a philosophy. You
(08:43):
need to say that it's it's it's very axiomatic and
one size fits all and what you know that was
that was what we were told argue at the time.
But her name is Leanna, and she I kind of
consider her my protege, so I'm like, wow, okay, well
circle great next generation and she probably is a better
wrap for I think the American cause than a lot
(09:04):
of Americans. So, I mean, it's the Canadian thing is
actually a cool characteristic.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So funny. So Leanna, what's her last name?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Gordon?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Okay, yeah, we'll look her up.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Yeah, it's just interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I do think that the people who survive, like you know,
places like Canada as a conservative, they do end up
having kind of the better arguments because they they've had
to fight for it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's like conservatives in liberal colleges or in institutions where
they have to make their arguments really pointed and strong,
and I think that they end up really do end
up representing a far better, stronger view of conservativism than
you know, maybe those of us who had it easier.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yes, no, absolutely, that's sort of what she says. I mean,
just it is it's like a surveillance ish state from
what she tells me. And I forget what region of
the country she lives. In but she's I mean a
lot of people here protests for various reasons. I think
of like billboard Chris very amazing, you know mission he
(10:09):
has there to just like to evade you know, restrictions
on posting billboards that are you know, decrying gender ideology.
He'll literally wear them, which is a great hack and loophole.
When Leanna goes to all of these Canadian protests and
it's definitely way riskier there, I mean, it feels riskier.
(10:29):
I don't know if the the what the penalties are
compared to you know, for protesting in the US, if
things get out of hand or whatever. But I mean,
just to be in that spotlight in Canada, she strikes
me as particularly courageous and Carol, you your background, you know,
like your family, you know, Soviet Union, Like what was
(10:50):
how does what do you think about?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
That's you know, that's sort of what I was thinking of,
is that if you end up being a freedom loving
person in a place where freedom is hard to come by,
you end up having the better arguments for why freedom
is necessary. We take a lot of stuff for granted here,
we just think it's all going to be okay, and
(11:13):
we think that we don't need to preserve some of
the really amazing things about us, just the fact that
so many Americans aren't impressed with the American system. We
have this incredible system that has lasted so long. And
you know, you have these French people, you know, France
will make fun of us for something, and I'll be like,
you've been through five republics in the time that we've
had our one, So you know, relax a little bit
(11:34):
over there, France.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But that's that's what I was thinking of.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And in Britain, you know, in places like Britain where protesters,
you know, if you have a pro British protester, they
could be arrested for racism. And it's like, what, no,
you know, so we take a lot of things for
granted here that I think people freedom loving people around
the world see and appreciate.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yes, And it's nice when you come from another country
and you do have this like you treat our freedom,
it's particularly precious. And so there isn't this like self
hating impulse that a lot of these kind of coddled
westernized nations have, like France. The opening ceremony of the Olympics,
like obviously it was very tragic, very sad. Regardless of
whether it was technically blaspheming or not. Whatever they were
(12:20):
trying to you know, interpret, God knows, but it's just
like it shows that they are like kind of a
self flagellating country that's like deeply ashamed of their tradition
in history. And I mean, yeah, France is a national embarrassment,
not because just because it just debases itself, like it
(12:40):
almost enjoys doing that. And I mean a lot of
Western countries do that.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Right, We're going to take a quick break and be
right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I was in
Vietnam and Thailand and Singapore over the summer, and it
was so interesting to me. I mean, like high it
has tons of problems, lots of issues, lots of you know,
kind of questionable history, but when they talk about their culture,
(13:09):
they're very proud of it, and they're very proud of
their country, and they're very proud of everything. Even you know,
they'll talk about like wars that they lost, but it'll
just be from a point of but you know, we're
trying to rebuild and this is this is where we
are now. And they tell you the stories of their
various kings and just a pride in a country that
(13:31):
you're not allowed to have openly here. And I've always
said this, but I feel like I am allowed to
have it because it's like, oh, you're an immigrant, like whatever,
you could do whatever, you know, But people who were
born here and are so lucky and so blessed, I
don't think that they are allowed to openly be patriotic
lest people think there's something wrong with them.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
No, especially among my generation. If you're not going on
an apology tour all the time for our country, you're
you're weird. Like you know, there's so many things to
be ashamed of, even though it's just unbelievable, like the
programming like from a young age of you know, kids
in K through twelve, Yeah, they grew up just I mean,
curriculum it's so like it wasn't for DeSantis and you know,
(14:12):
kind of restricting that type of curriculum that is like
just again blatantly self hating and just just not accurate. Like,
you know, it's so no wonder that most I think
it's most Americans would would have no interest in defending
their country, you know, or like fighting for their country, right,
(14:34):
I know that's kind of that's also the contentious within
the right today because there's the interventionist or the non interventionist.
But I just say, this is like the daughter of
a Vietnam veteran, who I mean that was like a
conflict that was very you know, I guess it's stale
made and decisive, like didn't go super well, doesn't isn't
tame as a victory. My my dad was one of
(14:54):
those people that came back, and you know, the veterans
did not get a welcome home at all because it
was they felt like they been lied to by the
government and all that. But even with all that clouding
you know, or should be clouding, like my dad's a
view of kind of American foreign policy. Like he he
was fiercely patriotic and could not understand why the young
generation wasn't and why they just don't have this kind
(15:17):
of dedication to country the way all their generations did.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, definitely, And when I was in Vietnam, I had
this thought in my head where no one is worse
off than a country that has won a war against America,
Like you know, Soul for example, is just in a
completely different place than Hanoi, and it's it's really interesting
to me of Iraq, you know, like they if they won,
(15:44):
they're not in a particularly amazing spot. But if you're
a country that has won a war against the United States,
you're you're probably worse off for it. So and it
was also interesting. I didn't I've never thought about it.
But they call it the American War and no, it's
the wow American War.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's wild, like there's a lot
of Vietnam War buffs. Now you know, what's the movie?
I guess it was just the Post. It was about
the Pentagon Papers. I liked that one a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
To check it out. I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I think I think that's what it's called. I think
it was about the the I think it was like
Meryl Street anyway. Yeah, no, foreign policy is like a
can of worms.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But as your what's your beat at National Review.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Well, it's actually not that at all. A lot of
culture culture war. It was education for a long time,
but now it's kind of morphed into you know, more
generalist stuff. And yeah, I think anything relating to cultures,
So I guess that's general ideology. Uh, you know, during COVID.
It was it was critical race theory. It was the
(16:56):
the teachers union, you know, conspiring with the government. It
was the I mean basically your your book, like that
was your book absolutely encapsulated every everything about the corruption
of that time with regards to children, you know, how
children were forsaken. And I think that's a very common
(17:17):
societal trend. We're just you know, neglecting children, you know,
just more and more, whether it's through you know, curriculum,
or locking them out of the classroom, or exposing them
to mature concepts that they are like not cognitively prepared for.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I think about when I was growing up and we
were my mom was ridiculed for this, but and maybe
maybe she was sheltering. I don't know. I'm very grateful
she sheltered me. If that's that's the case. She would
not show us certain entertainment content that was adult.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It was to be just a given, like you don't
show kids adult content, yes, because I mean, you are
what you consume.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
It rewires the brain, you know. I think I've interviewed
so many detransitioners at this point, and there's a lot
of kind of common threads I've identified and many others have. Okay,
first of all, they're misdiagnosing autism, that's for sure. Second
of all, these kids probably found something online at a
(18:19):
young age because their parents were not that involved. There
wasn't enough supervision or you know, printal authority, and they
just got lost in a rabbit hole online that was
very perverse or degenerate, and it basically disoriented them to
such a degree where they developed body dysmorphia. And you know,
there's many many things social media, like the comparison trap there.
(18:42):
You know, that's hard enough for adults. It's hard enough
for adults to kind of what's the word, take themselves
out of the social media, you know, kind of dopamine
spikes for validation among your peers. Kids, they have no
idea how to do that. And that's before you even
get to sexual content, which is just you know, when
(19:02):
you're an innocent child and you're still your brain is
so forming, it's just like throws an absolute monkey wrench
into that process.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So, what would you say is our largest cultural problem of.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
All of those?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I mean, okay, so I guess in the in the
vein of kind of we're forsaking the most vulnerable or
those who need our protection, like children. And I think
the reason maybe we're doing that is because there's kind
of an addiction to like convenience, addiction to like we're
just not paying attention to what's important, because I think
we're we're literally addicted to chasing highs and convenience, and
(19:44):
convenience I think was always the purpose of our of
our capitalistic system, or rather like comfort, like we should
be striving to create a prosperous nation where everybody can
enjoy its fruits or or can have the chance to
enjoy its fruits. Sure, but you know, like I think
too much decadence has has led us to we've abandoned
(20:07):
a lot a lot of things. In the process, we've
become like soft, I would say, And yeah, and now
it's all about kind of my immediate needs and wants.
And you know, I always thought that conservatism, what I
was taught, was like the Edmund Burke definition, that it
is about connecting the former generations with the future generations
(20:32):
and the present. So you always have this mind for posterity,
like what would help posterity, Like not what would create
comfort for me right now? But like how am I
going to you know, advance civilization in the future. How
am I going to set them up for success? And
that just isn't at all the mindset now, like not
(20:53):
at all. So yeah, I would say I delayed gratification.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
We don't really know how to do that anymore.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
No, No, we don't. We definitely, we definitely don't. It's
very immediate, and like I said, it's because we're inundated
with like stimuli that basically teaches us we can have
it all right now, like or you know, I think
it's partially because of online but yeah, no, that's and
my parents are older. They're my dad was you know,
(21:21):
like he passed away, you know, a couple of years ago,
but he, uh like was almost the greatest generation. And
my mom is almost seventy and I'm I mean they
they were grand grandparents as well. So I had kind
of a weird family structure. And I never like loved
that because all my friend's parents had young, like young
parents that were you know, doing activities with them. But
(21:42):
I'm so grateful now because they were so wise and
I felt like I kind of had a grandparent and
a parent like in one Yeah, and just to be
raised by someone who saw a different, like a drastically
different time. I mean, you know, your your parents, I think,
were also from from that air.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Although I'm a lot older than you.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, yeah, no, I know. I mean my dad was
eighty three when he passed, and it's I wouldn't have
traded that for anything, because I have an immense gratitude
for kind of the morals of a different era. Of course,
there were problems, but there were huge There were huge
(22:22):
problems in those you know decades, fifties, sixty seventies, but
they my parents always talked about how like you talk
about the dating landscape today, and how how awful it
is for my generation. And the question is why. I
remember when I started navigating that world, my mom had
no idea what I was talking about. She's like, what
do you what do you mean? It's like that challenging
(22:43):
you know, you just find a nice man and then
you just settle down. I'm like, you don't understand, mom.
I feel like I'm in a silo and I have
to find this exact kind of recipe, not recipe like
these like these check boxes, not of superficial qual but
like internal qualities. I have to make sure like that
(23:03):
they have similar ideas, like similar worldview, you know, reverence
or respect for their family. I mean there's a lot
of things that are not givens today. To me, are
no negotiable, no negotiables, and they used to be just
accepted as fact. My mom said, like, you know, neighbors
would often like get along or maybe you date, like
within the town, because people were much more closely tied together.
(23:26):
There was something uniting a lot of people. And maybe
maybe she's exaggerating, but I think I.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Think she's probably not, and I think that that's something
that we're definitely missing.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I I kind of I mean, you know, not ta.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Vera's too off check. But I always wonder about why
people don't date, you know, more within their own communities,
like why it has to be somebody far away or
outside of their universe. Of course, there are obviously still
enclaves or people do date within the communities. But that's
also why I think it's so important to forge those
(23:58):
communities for your kids, like maybe that they'll meet somebody
like that and you'll have similar values and it'll be
an easier process.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yeah, no, there have to. I think there has to
be stronger communities. I mean those are like those mediating
institutions that I mean, like Toauqueville talked about, and those
are those are the bulwarks first of all against many
you know, societal ills like yeah, whether that's you know
that social media influence or that's government you know, intervention
(24:28):
like strong community just is a repellent to all of
that because you're not your recourse is within your inner circle,
like that's where you go for help and assistance. And yeah,
I mean there's like no such thing today in dating
among my generation, or I don't see it. A lot
of like referrals or what's the word, like.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Like setting people up. I think that that's lacking for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
You know, I don't see that. I mean, it's all
apps because nobody is saying and nobody is bridging that gap.
And there also isn't really that third space between work
and leisure or working home rather yeah, working home. There's
really not really a third place where people can go.
And the bar is not exactly substitute for that. I'm
talking about a nice dinner party or you know, it's
(25:12):
maybe like a pickleball outing on a rooftop. I don't know,
you know what I mean, Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
You have kind of a very interesting career. I feel
like you are definitely going places. Do you feel like
you've made it?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
No, not at all, but you're very grateful for the journey.
I am just I think the how I can't say
I've made it because I don't think you know, does
anyone really feel like they've made it?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Well? Well, I ask all my guests that question, and
I get a very large range of answers. But yeah, absolutely,
some people say, yes, I've made it, I'm done, I'm good,
Oh wow, this is where I want to be well,
and it's never there's no rhyme or reason to it.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
So I think I have the privilege of working with
extremely brilliant minds that I'm constantly learning from. And I
know I haven't made it because I haven't stopped learning. Uh,
and I there's a lot more I have to learn,
and so that is not finished product at all. So
professionally no, But I mean I wear a lot of
(26:18):
hats like you know, TV, punditry now and investigative journalism,
and I'm kind of dabbling in all these areas and
I haven't like perfected or mastered any of them. And
I guess the question going forward is whether I should
just kind of double down in one area and just
stick with it, or or or keep exploring all the
different sides of you know, of media and are I
(26:42):
guess whatever whatever corner, whatever industry you would call this,
I'm not. Actually, I think it's this thing we do,
this thing we do, but you know, like socially and
like romantically, spiritually, i'd say it like almost well almost
made it. You know. I feel like I'm blessed with
you know, wonderful significant other, wonderful wonderful friends that are
(27:04):
like a culmination of a lot of like soul searching
and figuring out, you know, who I am. In college,
there were a lot of friends of convenience. Didn't have
really any any any strong compatibility with I guess you
could say, because it was all just you know, friends
of the friends, friends of utility or their sunshine.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Very typical of college. Yes, yeah, right is on your
dorm floor, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yes, Then as you get older, you start to look
for friends who share your values, and that's that's really important.
And you know, shout out to Hillsdale College. I didn't
go to Hillsdale College, but pretty much all my friends
are from there I Hillsdale.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I know, they're just amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Hillsdale gave me pretty much. I mean not only my
my boyfriend, but all my like all my friends because
they're just on the same wavelength. And yeah, pretty cool.
So yeah, well I love.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Talking to Caroline. This has been so awesome. And here
with your best tip for my listeners on how they
can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
So I'll tie it a bow on this. I would
just say, consume content that uplifts and energizes and improves
your soul, not garbage that is going to like corrode
your soul. And I think we need to be It
sounds like a juvenile piece of advice because it's like,
you know, what are we iPad kids? You know, we
(28:26):
can't we can't pull away from a screen. It's like no,
you know, whether it's reading or watching that you just
have to be very very careful about what you're consuming
because I mean you can get really lost on Twitter
doom scrolling, thinking everything's apocalyptic. Yeah, and you just have
to be able to withdraw and you know, realize what's
important and yeah, only like just try to try to
(28:49):
avoid things that are gonna, don't know, be toxic to you,
bump you out, Yeah yeah, Thank.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
You, Caroline, Caroline Downey read her at National Review. Thanks
so much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Thank you, Carol, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So much for joining us on The Carol Markowitz Show.
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Host
Karol Markowicz
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