March 14, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode, Karol interviews Liel Leibovitz, editor-at-large at Tablet Magazine and co-host of the Unorthodox Podcast, about his journey as a writer and the themes that drive his work. They discuss the concept of redemption, the societal problem of prestige addiction, and the need for alternative paths to college. Leibovitz shares his advice on being present and extreme in one's pursuits, and emphasizes the importance of courage and joy in living a fulfilling life. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
The Economist magazine had a review of three books recently,
all on the subject of talking to strangers. The three
books are Hello Stranger by Will Buckingham, The Power of
Strangers by Joe Kean, and Fractured by John Gates. This
(00:27):
is a topic I'm obviously interested in, how we meet people,
how we make friends. The Economist's review. It's unsigned, so
I don't know who wrote it. Notes quote. All three
authors make sweeping generalizations about the evolution of human society,
from hunter gatherers to the age of Homer and beyond.
They are more interesting when they reflect using personal experience
(00:50):
or scientific research on how people live and communicate now
in different ways. They all make two separate but related points. First,
interacting meaningfully with new person can bring huge rewords, but
it is a skill that must be cultivated and can
easily be lost. Second, the self segregation of modern Western
societies means that for many people, conversing with some fellow
(01:13):
citizens seems pointless, undesirable, or outlandish. The second problem exacerbates
the first. If you consider others beyond the pale, why
make the effort to get to know them, as mister
Kohane and mister Yates emphasize. In Britain and America, political
divisions have ossified into tribal ones. Supporters and opponents of
Brexit live in discreete clusters. Republicans and Democrats see each
(01:37):
other as bad people, not fellow Americans whose opinions happen
to differ. These opposing sides have become strangers to one another.
Mister Buckingham focuses on the pleasures and pitfalls of encounters
in remote places, where the stakes are lower because the
acquaintance ships are bound to be temporary in a holiday
flat share in Helsinki or while traveling through the Balkans.
(01:57):
But like the other two, he notes that the where
fariness of unfamiliar people is neither new nor insuper bowl
end quote. I have a lot of friends who I
disagree with politically, and they are good, rich friendships. But
I don't think there's anything crazy at all about seeking
out or living among people with whom you agree on
(02:18):
kind of the big issues of life. I lived in
a neighborhood in Brooklyn where I disagreed pretty much with
all of my neighbors and pretty strongly too. They were
very far left. I'm obviously a conservative now. My husband
and I we made amazing friends there with varying degrees
of political differences. Some people just aren't that into politics,
(02:38):
and some people are very into politics, and we don't agree,
and it's absolutely possible to still have close friendships. But
I should note that most of the people who we
became close with in that neighborhood, who maybe we politically
disagreed with, were Jewish like us. So even if we
didn't have politics in common, we had something else, something big.
(03:00):
That's what gets lost in the conversations about people lining
up with their political tribes. There's nothing weird about looking
for commonality. There's an Irish bar in so many random
places I visited, from Lisbon to Buenos Aires. Is it
weird that Irish people would seek each other out when
they're far from home. I don't think it is. Of course,
(03:22):
take chances and talk to strangers and make friends with
people who are different from you. It's possible. But also
don't be surprised if the people you're most drawn to
are actually quite similar to you. That's the way the
world has always worked, and there's really nothing weird about that.
Coming up next, an interview with Leelle Leibowitz. Hi, and
(03:46):
welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Leelle Leovitz. Leelle is editor at Large
at Tablet Magazine and co host of Unorthodox, the world's
most popular Jewish podcast. Leelle is also you know, no
pressure here, Leel, but my favorite writer, Hi, Leel. So
nice to have you on, Carol.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I cannot tell you what a pleasure this is.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
So I ask people how they would want to be introduced,
and you included a word that not only I didn't
know but also couldn't pronounce. And I kind of practiced,
and I was like, forget it, I'm not doing it.
But a tinerant drinker.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Iterant tinerant drunk. Okay, yes, I got very committed to
being drunk just on occasion.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Oh okay, because I thought it was somebody who travels
to get drunk based on definition. Also, yes, I couldn't
even claim immigrant, you know here whenever I don't know
a word, I'm like, well, I'm an immigrant, you know,
even though I came when I was like one and
a half. But because you're an immigrant too, and you
know you knew what it meant.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Very much an immigrant, and yes, also someone who travels
from location to location based mainly in the availability of gin.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Well, we have a lot of gin for you in
South Florida, should you feel like making the track, you know,
visiting or you know, moving whatever whatever works for you, Really.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Carol, why would I when I could open my door
here in New York City, smell the great smell of
you know, illegal weed stores everywhere, enjoy interaction with my
you know, fellow mentally unhinged citizens, be shoved on the
subway as part of my daily routine workout. There's so
much fun here. It really does functioning American City like fun.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And I don't know why you would leave it. So,
you know, whenever you're ready to leave that wonderland, you
just let me know.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You're touching a very sore spot. But yes, you are
the best ambassador for the Sunshine State. Then eventually you'll convert.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Us to you know, I used to be the best
ambassador for New York City. I used to be such
a fan and we tell people about how amazing it was,
and then you know, I couldn't do that anymore. So
it was time to go. But okay, I'm not going
to keep poking at it. Tell us about yourself. How
did you become a writer?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
How did I become a writer? Simply? I didn't know
how to do anything else. I'm being sincere. I still
don't know how to do anything else. If I did,
there's so many professions I would much rather choose. But
from a very young age, it was very apparent that
my very limited skill set was basically reading things and
(06:22):
writing things and talking about things. It occupied, you know,
every three hour and every cell of my imagination. It
was really never a question. I mean, I honestly remember
myself at six or seven sort of sitting on the
couch and me like, well, you know, when I published
my first book, which is, of course what every adult
wants to hear, which parents, of course are like, well
(06:44):
when I'm unemployed. But it was completely obvious it's all
I ever wanted to and it's still all I want
to do. I mean, I don't, I'm just I mean,
look at the grain in my beard right now, I've
aged into it. It was more of a problem my twenties.
Billion I was never one of these people like, oh
my god, dude, let's go to a poor and get
high and get drunk, and I go to parties or
(07:05):
like people. Now it's like, let's binge like nine Seasons
of the Pink Lotus or whatever people are watching, Like,
I'm gonna sit here, drink something and read.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
How many books have you written?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I'm gonna go with eleven? Wow, dude, I don't know
why I say this. Maybe nine?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
But are you guessing?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I am guessing. I can't. Here's the thing, I think
one great thing slash terrible things. My mind is it's
very small. It's like a groundhog Day situation. As soon
as I finish a problem, I'm so consumed by the
project that I'm working on right now. Then as soon
as I finish it, I have zero recollection of what
(07:50):
I just did two days ago. So if you asked
me about a book I literally finished writing, you know,
four weeks ago, I'd be like, I don't know. Maybe
I don't so I don't remember how many I can.
I just I have to leave them as soon as
Sometimes it's.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Funny because people compare writing books to having children, but
clearly I think you know how many kids you have?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And I'm going to go with two you sure. Yeah,
I'm sure. I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Do you feel like you've made it?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Do I feel like I've made it?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I mean, you have like a million books, it's like,
and two children and you know, a beautiful wife, and
you don't seem like you've got it going on. And
you're my favorite writer, literally, my favorite writer, which has
to count for something in your modification of if you've
made it.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
It counts for so much because I admire you so
much and you're doing such incredible, incredible work, and so
this is like the greatest compliment you could pay. I'm
going to go ahead and say yes. And here's why.
You know, a lot of us who enter this world arts, politics,
(08:59):
these are these are high octane, high emotion pursuits.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
We go into them because we have big feelings and
because we want to achieve big things. And with this
comes bucket loads of absolute sheer. Can we curse on
the show? Yeah, curse away, absolute sheer fucking misery because
you're like, oh my god, my book failed, Oh my god,
this party that I don't like in power, this person
(09:25):
that I hate just want to election. This very big
feelings drive you looney, which is honestly why so much
was all jokes about drinking aside, this is why so
many of us drink, right, this is this is what
we do. What I feel I've achieved in the last
eight or so years is a notion of really really
(09:45):
kind of embodying or at least really grocking to use
a nerdy term, to really kind of internalizing this. This
Talmudic teaching that I love. The Tama teaches us who's
the rich person. It's the person who could be happy
with what he has. That was not me ten years
(10:07):
ago at all. I was one of these people who
woke up every morning He's like, why don't I have
this show? Why is my party not in power? Why
can't I do? Like it was constantly like this great
line in Hamilton, like You're never satisfied, You'll never be satisfied. Yeah,
I'm satisfied. I don't. I don't need to be the
most the biggest. I open my eyes every morning, I
(10:29):
start the day with, you know, prayers to God, giving
thanks for everything that He's given us. And it sounds corny,
but it changes the entire out kind of day, Like
there's no there's no inbox that could contain bad news.
After you came by saying hey, look man, thanks for everything.
And then you see your kids and you see you know,
your ability to have a little bit of a voice
(10:50):
in this world and to talk and spend your days,
you know, talking to people you you you like a
lot and admire and thinking about ideas. I'm I am satisfied.
And to me, that's that's howthing made it.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, I agree. I think that that's really what it's
all about. I also had parents who did not want
me to be a writer. And I remember my parents,
I want to be a writer, and they were like, no,
that's not a thing, like nobody makes it as a writer.
You will not be able to feed yourself. Doctor, you're
going to be a doctor. So if you had to
have a plan B, if you couldn't be a writer,
(11:24):
what would it be, I'll tell you when you can't
be a podcaster. You know nothing in.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Thee of these things. So I actually I was a
pretty good army person. I didn't go very far with it.
I left it. You know, I served for three years
in Israel Defense Forces. But it made perfect tense to me.
There's kind of beautiful order to it and a big
sense of mission. And a big sense of kind of like, okay, well,
(11:51):
you know you're one small part of a big team
I'm going to go with. I would probably have been
in the mill service. The only other thing that I
ever really loved doing enough and was somewhat good at
is boxing, which is again another very dumb skill that
I have because I'm six foot five and two and
(12:13):
fifty pounds and you know, at some point you gotta
go and what God gave you. So I could probably
have done this, but honestly, like something like a barman
again to bring it back to being.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
A drunk tinnerant drinking, any.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Profession that allows you to spend some time and you know,
talk to people, help people out, not in a kind
of prescriptive, hierarchical like power trip kind of way, but
just like, hey man, yeah how can I help you? Gin?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You can help like Jinn.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
And then finally in my kind of list that what
I should have could have look the real family business.
I come from a long line of rabbis. I think
that would have served me.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Justifying Yeah, I could see you being like a rabbi boxer.
That would be your Twitter handle, right like.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Slash astronaut slash billionaire.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I believe in you actually, So what would you say
is like the theme of your writing, like what do
you enjoy? What you know, concepts you enjoy? Hitting the
most easy.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I only say I think there's only one. Uh, it's redemption,
It's it's it's creating to court my my rebe Leonard Cohen,
who I wrote a book about and had the pleasure
and the privilege of getting to know later in life
his life. Also later in my life writing a manual
(13:40):
for living with defeat, you know, understanding again coding one
of his most famous songs that there's a crack in everything,
but that's how life gets in. Uh. You know that
is such a hard kind of bit of wisdom for
us to grasp as we kind of reach for redemption
that looks like like perfection, that sounds like bell's ringing.
(14:03):
That is this moment like oh my God, and all
I have to do is X and then life will
be great. I think so many of us are so
unhappy because we've been sold this vision of what again,
to go back to our last question of conversation topic
of conversation, we've been sold this vision of like what
making it is that is constant waiting right, there's a
doctor Seuss line like the waiting place, like you wait
(14:25):
and wait and wait and wait, Like, Okay, so I
graduate from high school and then I'll go to college,
and then I'll get the internship, and then I'll get
the job, and then i'll get the go to graduate school,
and then I'll get the better job, and then and
then finally I'll be happy. There's a point in which
the door's open, the angels sing, You're like, as Marco Witz,
welcome to the time you are here. And then you're
like that that was it. No, that's not how any
(14:48):
of it works. It's it's it's the small heartbreaks, and
it's learning to live with him. It's it's it's failing
and then learning to fail better and failing upwards as
as you go with it. That's honestly the theme of
I think everything I'm writing about it, and I think
that's the thing that we need right now, because we
are so fucking broken, all of us, our society. I
(15:09):
mean to quote Alana new House, my dear friend and
boss of Capital Magazine, who wrote this glorious piece called
Everything is Broken. Everything is Broken in America, slash the
world slash the cosmos right now, knowing how to live
with it and find meaning in it and repair it.
Not in this kind of dumb, you know, revolutionary Hey,
(15:30):
let me let me wave a Kama's flag and you know,
block access to a cancer hospital because that's what I believe.
But but in a real kind of generative, emotional, human, helpful,
beautiful way. Boy, that's a tough skill to master.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
What would you say is our largest societal problem.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
It's it is eminently solvable, and it's it's a great
public health crisis that we don't talk about enough. It's
prestige addiction. It's this notion that so many of us
have was like, oh my god, I would have made
it once I have the degree from Columbia University or
(16:10):
Harvard or Pane. Yeah, I would have made it once
I'm published by the New York Times. Oh I would
have made it once I'm a partner at this prestigious
law firm. We set so much store by these you know, validations.
But one of my favorite things about being in Los Angeles,
everyone drives everywhere and everything is valet and they ask
every ye do need validation, which, of course they made
(16:31):
for the parking but I take it cosmically like, yes,
we all need validation, except we seek it in the
absolute wrong places. We seek it in you know, these institutions,
and not just these institutions, but institutions that have already
collapsed and crumbled into kind of like you know, fetid
swamps of mutually accrediting mediocrites pursuing their power for evil.
(16:53):
I think we could stop. I think we should absolutely
stop and kind of get back to first principles. And
here here's the thing. This is the source of great optimism.
It's happening everywhere. You could see it in a what
twenty thirty percent drop of advanced application admissions application to Harvard.
You could see it in like more and more people
just opting out of these corrupted structures. And you write
(17:15):
about this so well, and so beautifully and so frequently.
It's happening everywhere. It's a great coalition of normal Americans.
It defies left and right, religious and secular. We're curing
ourselves of this prestige addiction, one person at one American
at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
How do we move that process along? How do we
help that you know, ending.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Two words courage and joy, both lacking tremendously. The first
is rather obvious, right, just to have the courage to say, like,
I'm sorry, this is here's something that I say to
my children, who are twelve and ten three times a week.
I'm not exaggerating, like maybe four times a week. Look,
(17:58):
I have a PhD from Columbia University. I taught at
Columbia for some years. I taught at NYU for almost
a decade. I'm a recovered academic. So maybe easy for
me to say, but I say to my twelve and
ten year old three times a week, you are never
going to college. You're never going to college because I'm
not paying, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
(18:18):
and spending four years of your life for someone to
basically train you to be a Nazi. Like that's not
happening in our household. That's the courage part, the bigger part,
and some people have that, although not enough, but they're optimistic.
The bigger part, and the more troublesome part, is the
joy part. Right, it's not enough just to say, well,
(18:39):
we hate universities, the campus woke ideology, like eighty five
percent of what I hear, and like, you know, the
media that I consume is all this. The joy part
is say, like, guys, actually, we have amazing ideas and
we have better you know, attitudes and views in life,
and we love them and we're very proud of them.
(18:59):
We're out of our faith traditions. We're proud of our communities.
We're proud of our solutions to these problems that are
much more ancient and sustainable than anything you know, college
professors have designed two and a half minutes ago, historically speaking, right,
I think this building and building with with grit and
happiness is what makes this country great. I believe in
(19:20):
it wholeheartedly. I think the next couple of years are
going to be very tough, but in the long run, Look,
this is a covenantal nation. We renew the covenant every
couple of years, and it doesn't look the same for
any generation that renews the covenant. It didn't look the
same for the people in eighteen sixty one as it
did for the people in seventeen seventy six, and it
didn't look the same in nineteen sixty four as it
(19:41):
did in eighteen sixty one. It's our turnout and it's
going to be amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So what does that look like practically, because you know
you have a twelve and a ten year old, you're
saying they're never going to college. You're you're you're going
to hit up again. So what happens when they graduate
high school? They just they go to work? Is it?
I mean, I'm in I'm into like send my kids
to college. I'm just afraid that they're going to want
to go to college.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
First of all, they could go to college. What I say,
to be very precise is I'm never paying for your
college once you're eighteen. If you wish to take and
make mistakes, I mean, legally I can't stop you. But
I do have a four I have a four pronged plan,
and it sounds very Soviet apologies, but I have been
thinking about this a lot. My four prong plan is simple.
(20:29):
I want to take the four years they would have
spent on college and to say, two hundred and thousand
dollars or so, all all things you know, considered, and
spend them the following way. I want about a quarter
of that time and money spent on them actually reading
books and learning, something which as we all know, necessarily
(20:54):
happen in college. It is not too difficult to put
together a very good kind of yees, set of readings
and kind of essential core competencies that replaces and surpasses
everything you would have learned at the Liberal It's four
years called. I want a quarter of the time and
money spent on traveling, because I think it is eminently
(21:17):
important for these kids to actually see the world and
know what it's like, which again does not happen in
the mirthless, airless type quarters of college. I want a
quarter of this time spent picking up a skill, like
a real life skill, and it could be anything from
very high end skills like oh my god, now you
(21:37):
can program Python, and you could get a high beating
job to learn how to be a plumber, which is
something that humanity will always need as long as we
have indoor plumbing, which hopefully is a long while.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, well see right.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And then the fourth and then the fourth part of it,
which I think is probably the most important, I want
them to volunteer. I want them to give back to
their community, which is something that you do not emphasize
at all. We do it kind of to check a
box in the college application, but not in a real
way of like, look, this community has given you so much.
Life has given you so much time, time for you
(22:10):
to go and give back, and if possible in between,
if I get out a fifth, I want them to
fuck around. I want him to wander because I think
so much of the way that you know, life is
set up for a young person. You never get a
moment to just say like, Okay, I am now going
to just figure myself out, which is Lord knows, most
of us do it when we're forties. And then we
(22:32):
have terrible midlife crises and we have divorces, and we
buy dumb sports cars, and we do things that we
really would regret, you know. We have affairs, we like
destroy our lives, we develop addictions. Let's do it when
we're nineteen, shall we. Let's just take a bunch of
time being like, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm just
gonna you know, live for a little. Yeah, all that
(22:53):
could be done on a much more pleasurable and much
more affordable calendar and budget than sending your kid to Oberlin.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marco It Show. I feel like
I know that this is not your point, and I
know you're not going to do this, but this could
actually be an extremely successful money maker. This program, this
four four to five prong program. You can fuck around,
you know, leave that in, kick it out, whichever way
(23:24):
you want to go could be you know, because because
parents don't, I think a lot of parents send their
kids to college. I definitely have in my head that
my kids are going to college, even though I know
all the risks and all the problems with colleges and
all the negatives, just because I don't have the plan B.
I don't have the le alibivis you know, for prong
plan in mind. And I feel like people would buy
(23:46):
your program, which.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Is why I'm announcing right here and right now in
the Carrol Marco itself.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I think you could charge way more than that, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I think that's why I didn't say businessman when you
ask me what I should have been, because obviously, right.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I think you're gonna need a businessman partner for this,
So which.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Is why you're announcing right now in the camera. So no,
no I am.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I too, am bad at business like most writers are.
So I think we're gonna we're gonna need some sort
of other person who knows what they're doing to make
this plan happen. But I you know, I again, I
know that this isn't your intention, But I think you
can provide parents in a plan B and a different
path to college, and I think a lot of people
would take that plan.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I would love to do something even better, sorry, mom,
if you're listening, than making a lot of money off
of it, I'd like to give it away for free because,
for example, look the sort of liberal arts curriculum you
could design a very good especially with the vast amount
of you know, genuinely terrific lectures that exist online right now.
You can design a very good kind of liberal arts
(24:53):
education that the kid can consume a year for I'm
going to go in and say, maybe three hundred dollars
all things, like, all all books included done because a
lot of that stuff could be found for free online.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, I mean that would be And this is why
writers don't make money. I just gave you a brilliant
million dollar idea and you're life.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I just told you. I'm giving it right back away
for free. It's really a shame to be probably the
two Jews in the world whore like the worst with
like money.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, it sucks. So I love talking to Yuliel, and
here with your best tip for my listeners on how
they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
This is an incredible question because I've been thinking about
it so much, and I realized that anything and everything
anyone says sounds like those, you know, incredibly hokey and corny,
you know, graduation speeches in which you say, well, you know,
take time to like look around you and smell the
(25:50):
flowers or whatever. So I'll give two pieces of advice,
and one of them is a little bit more serious
and the other is a little bit not.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
And I think I'll just interject for one second that
I've heard from listeners who have told me that they've
changed like different parts of their lives based on that question.
I know it sounds hokey, but it works. It's like
people need to hear the words, so tell us, tell
us what they need to do.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I will give three three and you and you decided.
You decide which is which is serious and which is not.
My first is to never ever order a vodka martini,
which is an abomination and a crime against civilization. And
also never to even use a shaker in your martini.
Just basically pour some gin into into your class.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I'm a Manhattan drinker.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
General direction of a vermutha. Now, on a serious note,
I have I have two pieces of advice and they're
kind of inter interlocking. The first is to be very
rude and the second is to be very extreme. And
here's what I mean by that. We live in a
(26:55):
very hyper connected world. Just since the beginning of this interview,
three devices, you know, cling, pinged and dingd trying to
kind of get my attention to it. I still never
figured out that do not disturb thing. Most of us,
you know, get up every morning and be like, oh,
this is what I have to do today, and seventeen email,
(27:16):
three hundred text messages, twenty WhatsApp threads, you know, signal notifications,
checking Twitter, going on Facebook, posting and Instagram. Later like
whatever happened to that email? I was supposed to write
the worst person in the world, as I think, you know,
I think this, I think I've done this to you.
I can sometimes not return calls or emails four months,
(27:39):
by the way, including to my wife. I could tell
you what sure she really enjoys that she is an
absolute amazing moment because she understands about me when I
have a project that really engrosses me, I'm one hundred
percent present in this project. So the message I suppose is,
you know, be here now, be complete present in what
(28:01):
you do. Do not return that call, do not return
that email. It's okay. Let people kind of seethe and
then just say I'm sorry, but let me tell you
about what i was doing. And I think they'll appreciate
that much more because they know that you're not just
being a dick, but you're actually completely present. And the
same goes for you know, your children. I never ever
have my phone on me ever, even in the vicinity
(28:23):
of me when I'm in you know, a dinner with
friends or with my kids. Never my kids know that
I will tell them rudely again, I'm sorry, I don't
have time for you today. I'm not gonna talk to
you because I'm not gonna do this. Spolshy think like,
oh honey, how is dinner? Click click click, phone front
phone thing. They think, Yeah, I'm not gonna do it.
If I'm here with you, you know that I'm one
(28:43):
hundred percent here with you, and if not, just be like,
I'm sorry, I can't do it today or this week.
Or sometimes even this month, I will say to my kids, look,
i'm a dad line, I'm finishing a book. I'm sorry,
you're not gonna see me in you know, until May
or whatever. I think they appreciate it much more so.
My first advice don't be afraid to be rude, if
that is what it takes to really be present in
what you do. And the second thing, which I think
(29:03):
goes hand in hand with is which is wonderful, is
be extreme. Look, we are all taught by this kind
of devascinated, effeckless, spineless, bloodless educational system that the best
view is always from the fifty yards line, that you
always have to see all points of every available thing,
(29:24):
that you always have to be very reasonable and you know,
negotiate calmly and rationally, and you know what, eighty five
percent of the time it's great advice except for the
fifteen percent of the time that it's and that fifteen
percent of the time counts for everything, because if you
do not have at least four things in your life
that you are willing to go completely all out, zero compromises,
(29:49):
zero fucks given over, then I don't think you're doing
this right. And it includes by the way, to so
many of US Jews, the ability to say I'm sorry.
I don't need to see the other side of this question.
I'm seeing my side. Do I care about what's going
on in Gaza, Sure, it's terrible, you know what. I
care much more about the one hundred and thirty something
Israelies that are kidnapped. That's my top priority. I'm not
(30:11):
gonna worry about this. This is what a normal person does.
Or to feel actual, real hatred of your enemies because
they're evil people. To see the world in terms of
good and evil that really do exist. If you do
not believe in that, and if you do not have
the passion to want to root out evil, and if
you're not willing to be extreme about saying I'm sorry,
I'm not compromising with these people. I don't care about
(30:33):
the root causes or the you know, the reasons, or
the justifications or their narrative. Fuck the root causes. I
want them gone. That to me is a quality that
is much lacking. And if you could find a little bit,
a little bit of that burning intensity in your heart,
I think you'll do much better.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I love that be extreme. Thank you so much. Leelle
read them and table read one of his twenty eight books,
Love to have you on. Thank you so much, What
a pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us on The
Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
The Economist magazine had a review of three books recently,
all on the subject of talking to strangers. The three
books are Hello Stranger by Will Buckingham, The Power of
Strangers by Joe Kean, and Fractured by John Gates. This
(00:27):
is a topic I'm obviously interested in, how we meet people,
how we make friends. The Economist's review. It's unsigned, so
I don't know who wrote it. Notes quote. All three
authors make sweeping generalizations about the evolution of human society,
from hunter gatherers to the age of Homer and beyond.
They are more interesting when they reflect using personal experience
(00:50):
or scientific research on how people live and communicate now
in different ways. They all make two separate but related points. First,
interacting meaningfully with new person can bring huge rewords, but
it is a skill that must be cultivated and can
easily be lost. Second, the self segregation of modern Western
societies means that for many people, conversing with some fellow
(01:13):
citizens seems pointless, undesirable, or outlandish. The second problem exacerbates
the first. If you consider others beyond the pale, why
make the effort to get to know them, as mister
Kohane and mister Yates emphasize. In Britain and America, political
divisions have ossified into tribal ones. Supporters and opponents of
Brexit live in discreete clusters. Republicans and Democrats see each
(01:37):
other as bad people, not fellow Americans whose opinions happen
to differ. These opposing sides have become strangers to one another.
Mister Buckingham focuses on the pleasures and pitfalls of encounters
in remote places, where the stakes are lower because the
acquaintance ships are bound to be temporary in a holiday
flat share in Helsinki or while traveling through the Balkans.
(01:57):
But like the other two, he notes that the where
fariness of unfamiliar people is neither new nor insuper bowl
end quote. I have a lot of friends who I
disagree with politically, and they are good, rich friendships. But
I don't think there's anything crazy at all about seeking
out or living among people with whom you agree on
(02:18):
kind of the big issues of life. I lived in
a neighborhood in Brooklyn where I disagreed pretty much with
all of my neighbors and pretty strongly too. They were
very far left. I'm obviously a conservative now. My husband
and I we made amazing friends there with varying degrees
of political differences. Some people just aren't that into politics,
(02:38):
and some people are very into politics, and we don't agree,
and it's absolutely possible to still have close friendships. But
I should note that most of the people who we
became close with in that neighborhood, who maybe we politically
disagreed with, were Jewish like us. So even if we
didn't have politics in common, we had something else, something big.
(03:00):
That's what gets lost in the conversations about people lining
up with their political tribes. There's nothing weird about looking
for commonality. There's an Irish bar in so many random
places I visited, from Lisbon to Buenos Aires. Is it
weird that Irish people would seek each other out when
they're far from home. I don't think it is. Of course,
(03:22):
take chances and talk to strangers and make friends with
people who are different from you. It's possible. But also
don't be surprised if the people you're most drawn to
are actually quite similar to you. That's the way the
world has always worked, and there's really nothing weird about that.
Coming up next, an interview with Leelle Leibowitz. Hi, and
(03:46):
welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Leelle Leovitz. Leelle is editor at Large
at Tablet Magazine and co host of Unorthodox, the world's
most popular Jewish podcast. Leelle is also you know, no
pressure here, Leel, but my favorite writer, Hi, Leel. So
nice to have you on, Carol.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I cannot tell you what a pleasure this is.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
So I ask people how they would want to be introduced,
and you included a word that not only I didn't
know but also couldn't pronounce. And I kind of practiced,
and I was like, forget it, I'm not doing it.
But a tinerant drinker.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Iterant tinerant drunk. Okay, yes, I got very committed to
being drunk just on occasion.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Oh okay, because I thought it was somebody who travels
to get drunk based on definition. Also, yes, I couldn't
even claim immigrant, you know here whenever I don't know
a word, I'm like, well, I'm an immigrant, you know,
even though I came when I was like one and
a half. But because you're an immigrant too, and you
know you knew what it meant.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Very much an immigrant, and yes, also someone who travels
from location to location based mainly in the availability of gin.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Well, we have a lot of gin for you in
South Florida, should you feel like making the track, you know,
visiting or you know, moving whatever whatever works for you, Really.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Carol, why would I when I could open my door
here in New York City, smell the great smell of
you know, illegal weed stores everywhere, enjoy interaction with my
you know, fellow mentally unhinged citizens, be shoved on the
subway as part of my daily routine workout. There's so
much fun here. It really does functioning American City like fun.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And I don't know why you would leave it. So,
you know, whenever you're ready to leave that wonderland, you
just let me know.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You're touching a very sore spot. But yes, you are
the best ambassador for the Sunshine State. Then eventually you'll convert.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Us to you know, I used to be the best
ambassador for New York City. I used to be such
a fan and we tell people about how amazing it was,
and then you know, I couldn't do that anymore. So
it was time to go. But okay, I'm not going
to keep poking at it. Tell us about yourself. How
did you become a writer?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
How did I become a writer? Simply? I didn't know
how to do anything else. I'm being sincere. I still
don't know how to do anything else. If I did,
there's so many professions I would much rather choose. But
from a very young age, it was very apparent that
my very limited skill set was basically reading things and
(06:22):
writing things and talking about things. It occupied, you know,
every three hour and every cell of my imagination. It
was really never a question. I mean, I honestly remember
myself at six or seven sort of sitting on the
couch and me like, well, you know, when I published
my first book, which is, of course what every adult
wants to hear, which parents, of course are like, well
(06:44):
when I'm unemployed. But it was completely obvious it's all
I ever wanted to and it's still all I want
to do. I mean, I don't, I'm just I mean,
look at the grain in my beard right now, I've
aged into it. It was more of a problem my twenties.
Billion I was never one of these people like, oh
my god, dude, let's go to a poor and get
high and get drunk, and I go to parties or
(07:05):
like people. Now it's like, let's binge like nine Seasons
of the Pink Lotus or whatever people are watching, Like,
I'm gonna sit here, drink something and read.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
How many books have you written?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I'm gonna go with eleven? Wow, dude, I don't know
why I say this. Maybe nine?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
But are you guessing?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I am guessing. I can't. Here's the thing, I think
one great thing slash terrible things. My mind is it's
very small. It's like a groundhog Day situation. As soon
as I finish a problem, I'm so consumed by the
project that I'm working on right now. Then as soon
as I finish it, I have zero recollection of what
(07:50):
I just did two days ago. So if you asked
me about a book I literally finished writing, you know,
four weeks ago, I'd be like, I don't know. Maybe
I don't so I don't remember how many I can.
I just I have to leave them as soon as
Sometimes it's.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Funny because people compare writing books to having children, but
clearly I think you know how many kids you have?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
And I'm going to go with two you sure. Yeah,
I'm sure. I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Do you feel like you've made it?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Do I feel like I've made it?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I mean, you have like a million books, it's like,
and two children and you know, a beautiful wife, and
you don't seem like you've got it going on. And
you're my favorite writer, literally, my favorite writer, which has
to count for something in your modification of if you've
made it.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
It counts for so much because I admire you so
much and you're doing such incredible, incredible work, and so
this is like the greatest compliment you could pay. I'm
going to go ahead and say yes. And here's why.
You know, a lot of us who enter this world arts, politics,
(08:59):
these are these are high octane, high emotion pursuits.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
We go into them because we have big feelings and
because we want to achieve big things. And with this
comes bucket loads of absolute sheer. Can we curse on
the show? Yeah, curse away, absolute sheer fucking misery because
you're like, oh my god, my book failed, Oh my god,
this party that I don't like in power, this person
(09:25):
that I hate just want to election. This very big
feelings drive you looney, which is honestly why so much
was all jokes about drinking aside, this is why so
many of us drink, right, this is this is what
we do. What I feel I've achieved in the last
eight or so years is a notion of really really
(09:45):
kind of embodying or at least really grocking to use
a nerdy term, to really kind of internalizing this. This
Talmudic teaching that I love. The Tama teaches us who's
the rich person. It's the person who could be happy
with what he has. That was not me ten years
(10:07):
ago at all. I was one of these people who
woke up every morning He's like, why don't I have
this show? Why is my party not in power? Why
can't I do? Like it was constantly like this great
line in Hamilton, like You're never satisfied, You'll never be satisfied. Yeah,
I'm satisfied. I don't. I don't need to be the
most the biggest. I open my eyes every morning, I
(10:29):
start the day with, you know, prayers to God, giving
thanks for everything that He's given us. And it sounds corny,
but it changes the entire out kind of day, Like
there's no there's no inbox that could contain bad news.
After you came by saying hey, look man, thanks for everything.
And then you see your kids and you see you know,
your ability to have a little bit of a voice
(10:50):
in this world and to talk and spend your days,
you know, talking to people you you you like a
lot and admire and thinking about ideas. I'm I am satisfied.
And to me, that's that's howthing made it.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, I agree. I think that that's really what it's
all about. I also had parents who did not want
me to be a writer. And I remember my parents,
I want to be a writer, and they were like, no,
that's not a thing, like nobody makes it as a writer.
You will not be able to feed yourself. Doctor, you're
going to be a doctor. So if you had to
have a plan B, if you couldn't be a writer,
(11:24):
what would it be, I'll tell you when you can't
be a podcaster. You know nothing in.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Thee of these things. So I actually I was a
pretty good army person. I didn't go very far with it.
I left it. You know, I served for three years
in Israel Defense Forces. But it made perfect tense to me.
There's kind of beautiful order to it and a big
sense of mission. And a big sense of kind of like, okay, well,
(11:51):
you know you're one small part of a big team
I'm going to go with. I would probably have been
in the mill service. The only other thing that I
ever really loved doing enough and was somewhat good at
is boxing, which is again another very dumb skill that
I have because I'm six foot five and two and
(12:13):
fifty pounds and you know, at some point you gotta
go and what God gave you. So I could probably
have done this, but honestly, like something like a barman
again to bring it back to being.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
A drunk tinnerant drinking, any.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Profession that allows you to spend some time and you know,
talk to people, help people out, not in a kind
of prescriptive, hierarchical like power trip kind of way, but
just like, hey man, yeah how can I help you? Gin?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You can help like Jinn.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
And then finally in my kind of list that what
I should have could have look the real family business.
I come from a long line of rabbis. I think
that would have served me.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Justifying Yeah, I could see you being like a rabbi boxer.
That would be your Twitter handle, right like.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Slash astronaut slash billionaire.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I believe in you actually, So what would you say
is like the theme of your writing, like what do
you enjoy? What you know, concepts you enjoy? Hitting the
most easy.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I only say I think there's only one. Uh, it's redemption,
It's it's it's creating to court my my rebe Leonard Cohen,
who I wrote a book about and had the pleasure
and the privilege of getting to know later in life
his life. Also later in my life writing a manual
(13:40):
for living with defeat, you know, understanding again coding one
of his most famous songs that there's a crack in everything,
but that's how life gets in. Uh. You know that
is such a hard kind of bit of wisdom for
us to grasp as we kind of reach for redemption
that looks like like perfection, that sounds like bell's ringing.
(14:03):
That is this moment like oh my God, and all
I have to do is X and then life will
be great. I think so many of us are so
unhappy because we've been sold this vision of what again,
to go back to our last question of conversation topic
of conversation, we've been sold this vision of like what
making it is that is constant waiting right, there's a
doctor Seuss line like the waiting place, like you wait
(14:25):
and wait and wait and wait, Like, Okay, so I
graduate from high school and then I'll go to college,
and then I'll get the internship, and then I'll get
the job, and then i'll get the go to graduate school,
and then I'll get the better job, and then and
then finally I'll be happy. There's a point in which
the door's open, the angels sing, You're like, as Marco Witz,
welcome to the time you are here. And then you're
like that that was it. No, that's not how any
(14:48):
of it works. It's it's it's the small heartbreaks, and
it's learning to live with him. It's it's it's failing
and then learning to fail better and failing upwards as
as you go with it. That's honestly the theme of
I think everything I'm writing about it, and I think
that's the thing that we need right now, because we
are so fucking broken, all of us, our society. I
(15:09):
mean to quote Alana new House, my dear friend and
boss of Capital Magazine, who wrote this glorious piece called
Everything is Broken. Everything is Broken in America, slash the
world slash the cosmos right now, knowing how to live
with it and find meaning in it and repair it.
Not in this kind of dumb, you know, revolutionary Hey,
(15:30):
let me let me wave a Kama's flag and you know,
block access to a cancer hospital because that's what I believe.
But but in a real kind of generative, emotional, human, helpful,
beautiful way. Boy, that's a tough skill to master.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
What would you say is our largest societal problem.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
It's it is eminently solvable, and it's it's a great
public health crisis that we don't talk about enough. It's
prestige addiction. It's this notion that so many of us
have was like, oh my god, I would have made
it once I have the degree from Columbia University or
(16:10):
Harvard or Pane. Yeah, I would have made it once
I'm published by the New York Times. Oh I would
have made it once I'm a partner at this prestigious
law firm. We set so much store by these you know, validations.
But one of my favorite things about being in Los Angeles,
everyone drives everywhere and everything is valet and they ask
every ye do need validation, which, of course they made
(16:31):
for the parking but I take it cosmically like, yes,
we all need validation, except we seek it in the
absolute wrong places. We seek it in you know, these institutions,
and not just these institutions, but institutions that have already
collapsed and crumbled into kind of like you know, fetid
swamps of mutually accrediting mediocrites pursuing their power for evil.
(16:53):
I think we could stop. I think we should absolutely
stop and kind of get back to first principles. And
here here's the thing. This is the source of great optimism.
It's happening everywhere. You could see it in a what
twenty thirty percent drop of advanced application admissions application to Harvard.
You could see it in like more and more people
just opting out of these corrupted structures. And you write
(17:15):
about this so well, and so beautifully and so frequently.
It's happening everywhere. It's a great coalition of normal Americans.
It defies left and right, religious and secular. We're curing
ourselves of this prestige addiction, one person at one American
at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
How do we move that process along? How do we
help that you know, ending.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Two words courage and joy, both lacking tremendously. The first
is rather obvious, right, just to have the courage to say, like,
I'm sorry, this is here's something that I say to
my children, who are twelve and ten three times a week.
I'm not exaggerating, like maybe four times a week. Look,
(17:58):
I have a PhD from Columbia University. I taught at
Columbia for some years. I taught at NYU for almost
a decade. I'm a recovered academic. So maybe easy for
me to say, but I say to my twelve and
ten year old three times a week, you are never
going to college. You're never going to college because I'm
not paying, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
(18:18):
and spending four years of your life for someone to
basically train you to be a Nazi. Like that's not
happening in our household. That's the courage part, the bigger part,
and some people have that, although not enough, but they're optimistic.
The bigger part, and the more troublesome part, is the
joy part. Right, it's not enough just to say, well,
(18:39):
we hate universities, the campus woke ideology, like eighty five
percent of what I hear, and like, you know, the
media that I consume is all this. The joy part
is say, like, guys, actually, we have amazing ideas and
we have better you know, attitudes and views in life,
and we love them and we're very proud of them.
(18:59):
We're out of our faith traditions. We're proud of our communities.
We're proud of our solutions to these problems that are
much more ancient and sustainable than anything you know, college
professors have designed two and a half minutes ago, historically speaking, right,
I think this building and building with with grit and
happiness is what makes this country great. I believe in
(19:20):
it wholeheartedly. I think the next couple of years are
going to be very tough, but in the long run, Look,
this is a covenantal nation. We renew the covenant every
couple of years, and it doesn't look the same for
any generation that renews the covenant. It didn't look the
same for the people in eighteen sixty one as it
did for the people in seventeen seventy six, and it
didn't look the same in nineteen sixty four as it
(19:41):
did in eighteen sixty one. It's our turnout and it's
going to be amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So what does that look like practically, because you know
you have a twelve and a ten year old, you're
saying they're never going to college. You're you're you're going
to hit up again. So what happens when they graduate
high school? They just they go to work? Is it?
I mean, I'm in I'm into like send my kids
to college. I'm just afraid that they're going to want
to go to college.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
First of all, they could go to college. What I say,
to be very precise is I'm never paying for your
college once you're eighteen. If you wish to take and
make mistakes, I mean, legally I can't stop you. But
I do have a four I have a four pronged plan,
and it sounds very Soviet apologies, but I have been
thinking about this a lot. My four prong plan is simple.
(20:29):
I want to take the four years they would have
spent on college and to say, two hundred and thousand
dollars or so, all all things you know, considered, and
spend them the following way. I want about a quarter
of that time and money spent on them actually reading
books and learning, something which as we all know, necessarily
(20:54):
happen in college. It is not too difficult to put
together a very good kind of yees, set of readings
and kind of essential core competencies that replaces and surpasses
everything you would have learned at the Liberal It's four
years called. I want a quarter of the time and
money spent on traveling, because I think it is eminently
(21:17):
important for these kids to actually see the world and
know what it's like, which again does not happen in
the mirthless, airless type quarters of college. I want a
quarter of this time spent picking up a skill, like
a real life skill, and it could be anything from
very high end skills like oh my god, now you
(21:37):
can program Python, and you could get a high beating
job to learn how to be a plumber, which is
something that humanity will always need as long as we
have indoor plumbing, which hopefully is a long while.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, well see right.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And then the fourth and then the fourth part of it,
which I think is probably the most important, I want
them to volunteer. I want them to give back to
their community, which is something that you do not emphasize
at all. We do it kind of to check a
box in the college application, but not in a real
way of like, look, this community has given you so much.
Life has given you so much time, time for you
(22:10):
to go and give back, and if possible in between,
if I get out a fifth, I want them to
fuck around. I want him to wander because I think
so much of the way that you know, life is
set up for a young person. You never get a
moment to just say like, Okay, I am now going
to just figure myself out, which is Lord knows, most
of us do it when we're forties. And then we
(22:32):
have terrible midlife crises and we have divorces, and we
buy dumb sports cars, and we do things that we
really would regret, you know. We have affairs, we like
destroy our lives, we develop addictions. Let's do it when
we're nineteen, shall we. Let's just take a bunch of
time being like, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm just
gonna you know, live for a little. Yeah, all that
(22:53):
could be done on a much more pleasurable and much
more affordable calendar and budget than sending your kid to Oberlin.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marco It Show. I feel like
I know that this is not your point, and I
know you're not going to do this, but this could
actually be an extremely successful money maker. This program, this
four four to five prong program. You can fuck around,
you know, leave that in, kick it out, whichever way
(23:24):
you want to go could be you know, because because
parents don't, I think a lot of parents send their
kids to college. I definitely have in my head that
my kids are going to college, even though I know
all the risks and all the problems with colleges and
all the negatives, just because I don't have the plan B.
I don't have the le alibivis you know, for prong
plan in mind. And I feel like people would buy
(23:46):
your program, which.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Is why I'm announcing right here and right now in
the Carrol Marco itself.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I think you could charge way more than that, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I think that's why I didn't say businessman when you
ask me what I should have been, because obviously, right.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I think you're gonna need a businessman partner for this,
So which.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Is why you're announcing right now in the camera. So no,
no I am.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I too, am bad at business like most writers are.
So I think we're gonna we're gonna need some sort
of other person who knows what they're doing to make
this plan happen. But I you know, I again, I
know that this isn't your intention, But I think you
can provide parents in a plan B and a different
path to college, and I think a lot of people
would take that plan.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I would love to do something even better, sorry, mom,
if you're listening, than making a lot of money off
of it, I'd like to give it away for free because,
for example, look the sort of liberal arts curriculum you
could design a very good especially with the vast amount
of you know, genuinely terrific lectures that exist online right now.
You can design a very good kind of liberal arts
(24:53):
education that the kid can consume a year for I'm
going to go in and say, maybe three hundred dollars
all things, like, all all books included done because a
lot of that stuff could be found for free online.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, I mean that would be And this is why
writers don't make money. I just gave you a brilliant
million dollar idea and you're life.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I just told you. I'm giving it right back away
for free. It's really a shame to be probably the
two Jews in the world whore like the worst with
like money.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, it sucks. So I love talking to Yuliel, and
here with your best tip for my listeners on how
they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
This is an incredible question because I've been thinking about
it so much, and I realized that anything and everything
anyone says sounds like those, you know, incredibly hokey and corny,
you know, graduation speeches in which you say, well, you know,
take time to like look around you and smell the
(25:50):
flowers or whatever. So I'll give two pieces of advice,
and one of them is a little bit more serious
and the other is a little bit not.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
And I think I'll just interject for one second that
I've heard from listeners who have told me that they've
changed like different parts of their lives based on that question.
I know it sounds hokey, but it works. It's like
people need to hear the words, so tell us, tell
us what they need to do.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I will give three three and you and you decided.
You decide which is which is serious and which is not.
My first is to never ever order a vodka martini,
which is an abomination and a crime against civilization. And
also never to even use a shaker in your martini.
Just basically pour some gin into into your class.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I'm a Manhattan drinker.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
General direction of a vermutha. Now, on a serious note,
I have I have two pieces of advice and they're
kind of inter interlocking. The first is to be very
rude and the second is to be very extreme. And
here's what I mean by that. We live in a
(26:55):
very hyper connected world. Just since the beginning of this interview,
three devices, you know, cling, pinged and dingd trying to
kind of get my attention to it. I still never
figured out that do not disturb thing. Most of us,
you know, get up every morning and be like, oh,
this is what I have to do today, and seventeen email,
(27:16):
three hundred text messages, twenty WhatsApp threads, you know, signal notifications,
checking Twitter, going on Facebook, posting and Instagram. Later like
whatever happened to that email? I was supposed to write
the worst person in the world, as I think, you know,
I think this, I think I've done this to you.
I can sometimes not return calls or emails four months,
(27:39):
by the way, including to my wife. I could tell
you what sure she really enjoys that she is an
absolute amazing moment because she understands about me when I
have a project that really engrosses me, I'm one hundred
percent present in this project. So the message I suppose is,
you know, be here now, be complete present in what
(28:01):
you do. Do not return that call, do not return
that email. It's okay. Let people kind of seethe and
then just say I'm sorry, but let me tell you
about what i was doing. And I think they'll appreciate
that much more because they know that you're not just
being a dick, but you're actually completely present. And the
same goes for you know, your children. I never ever
have my phone on me ever, even in the vicinity
(28:23):
of me when I'm in you know, a dinner with
friends or with my kids. Never my kids know that
I will tell them rudely again, I'm sorry, I don't
have time for you today. I'm not gonna talk to
you because I'm not gonna do this. Spolshy think like,
oh honey, how is dinner? Click click click, phone front
phone thing. They think, Yeah, I'm not gonna do it.
If I'm here with you, you know that I'm one
(28:43):
hundred percent here with you, and if not, just be like,
I'm sorry, I can't do it today or this week.
Or sometimes even this month, I will say to my kids, look,
i'm a dad line, I'm finishing a book. I'm sorry,
you're not gonna see me in you know, until May
or whatever. I think they appreciate it much more so.
My first advice don't be afraid to be rude, if
that is what it takes to really be present in
what you do. And the second thing, which I think
(29:03):
goes hand in hand with is which is wonderful, is
be extreme. Look, we are all taught by this kind
of devascinated, effeckless, spineless, bloodless educational system that the best
view is always from the fifty yards line, that you
always have to see all points of every available thing,
(29:24):
that you always have to be very reasonable and you know,
negotiate calmly and rationally, and you know what, eighty five
percent of the time it's great advice except for the
fifteen percent of the time that it's and that fifteen
percent of the time counts for everything, because if you
do not have at least four things in your life
that you are willing to go completely all out, zero compromises,
(29:49):
zero fucks given over, then I don't think you're doing
this right. And it includes by the way, to so
many of US Jews, the ability to say I'm sorry.
I don't need to see the other side of this question.
I'm seeing my side. Do I care about what's going
on in Gaza, Sure, it's terrible, you know what. I
care much more about the one hundred and thirty something
Israelies that are kidnapped. That's my top priority. I'm not
(30:11):
gonna worry about this. This is what a normal person does.
Or to feel actual, real hatred of your enemies because
they're evil people. To see the world in terms of
good and evil that really do exist. If you do
not believe in that, and if you do not have
the passion to want to root out evil, and if
you're not willing to be extreme about saying I'm sorry,
I'm not compromising with these people. I don't care about
(30:33):
the root causes or the you know, the reasons, or
the justifications or their narrative. Fuck the root causes. I
want them gone. That to me is a quality that
is much lacking. And if you could find a little bit,
a little bit of that burning intensity in your heart,
I think you'll do much better.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I love that be extreme. Thank you so much. Leelle
read them and table read one of his twenty eight books,
Love to have you on. Thank you so much, What
a pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us on The
Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Karol Markowicz
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