June 27, 2024 • 29 mins
Jennifer Sey, a former elite gymnast, author, and business executive, discusses her journey from exposing abuse in gymnastics to advocating for the reopening of schools during the pandemic and launching her own brand, XXXY Athletics. She emphasizes the importance of speaking truth, standing up for children, and living a life of integrity. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Show on iHeartRadio. Last episode, I suggested that single people
do a digital detox for the summer and cut off
all online dating, go the analog route, meet people in
real life. But it's funny because all the emails I've
gotten about that monologue are from non single people saying
(00:32):
they too, are thinking of taking a digital break this summer.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I've talked about this on the show before.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Because for so many people, just being online is such
a problem, and they know that they are on too
much and they know that they would be happier if
they weren't.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I am one of those.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
People for sure, And every summer I take a few
weeks off from Twitter, and it's very hard.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I struggle with it a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I take the app off my phone, and I've told
the story on here because I can't have the icon
on my phone because I'll be clicking it, and in fact,
my finger clicks the blank space for many days before
it gets used to the.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
App not being there.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Having said all that, I love my Twitter break and
I look forward to it every summer, and it's Twitter
that I take a break from because Twitter is my
problem app. I just don't have that same kind of addictive.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Behavior with other apps.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
If you're thinking of a phone break or a specific
app break.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Do it.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Summer is a really good time to do that, as
things slow down a little bit. I can also assure
you that the big stories that I miss when I'm
on my Twitter break have mostly disappeared by the time
I get back online. It's actually amazing to watch how
a news cycle happens.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
And then just I feel like.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
People are hungry for a break from being online. I
think some people maybe just need permission to take one.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So this is it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
This is your signal to make a serious break with
your phone.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
It can be an.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
App you're addicted to, or texting or all of it.
Give yourself a set time. I like to do two weeks,
nothing crazy. You can do shorter, you can do longer.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Again.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
For single people, I would suggest a whole summer of
no dating apps, just to see if the sensation of
being off them will lead you to meet somebody offline.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
We don't have to ditch the internet forever.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I love the Internet, but we all know we overuse
and abuse it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So let's take a break together and see how it goes.
Coming up next and interview with Jennifer Say. Join us
after the break. Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show
on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Jennifer Say. This is
going to be a longer intro than I normally give you, guys,
(03:05):
because I really want to sum up.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Who Jennifer Say is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Jennifer's an American author, filmmaker, business executive, and retired artistic gymnast.
She was a seven time member of the US women's
national team and was the nineteen eighty six US women's
all around national champion. Her first memoir, Chalked Up, was
released in two thousand and eight and detailed abuse in
the sport of gymnastics. Say also produced the twenty twenty
(03:31):
Emmy Award winning documentary film athlet Athlete a on Netflix,
which connected the crimes of Larry Nasser to the broader
abuses in the Olympic movement. Say began working at Levi
Straussen Coe in nineteen ninety nine, rising to Chief Marketing
Officer and then brand president. She was named one of
Billboard's Most Powerful People in Music and Fashion in twenty sixteen,
(03:55):
and was twice named to Forbes' Most Influential CMO List
in twenty nineteen eight twenty twenty. Starting in twenty twenty,
she risked her reputation, community and friendships to speak up
against the harm being done to children due to the
extended closure of San Francisco, Cisco's public schools. She resigned
from Levi's in twenty twenty two very publicly, and has
(04:17):
been focused on her own writing and filmmaking projects. She
has a documentary film in post production called Jennifer Sorry,
Generate Jennifer Covid Generation Covid about the harms Yeah, about
the harms to children from prolonged school closures, And now
she is starting her own brand, xx Xy Athletics. She's
(04:37):
the mother of four and lives in Denver with her family. Jennifer,
So nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Thank you for having me, Carol, It's so great to
talk to you.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I have to start off by telling you that a
lot of non political or maybe like mildly political people
in my life really love you. And that's really why
I wanted to give your full intro, because I wanted
people to like get you know your I interview a
lot of different kinds of people on this show, but
I think you're sort of a unique person. I've had
friends in New York who would say to me, you
(05:07):
know who, I like that, Jennifer say, and so what's
interesting to me about that is you have all this
crossover appeal. You could have picked a completely safe political
issue to engage in. You could have gone into, you know,
climate change activism. Nobody would have ever sent you any
hate mail. But you famously fought to open schools during
(05:28):
the pandemic, something that everyone now believes was the right
thing to do, obviously, And now you have xxxy athletics
and you're fighting for girls sports.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Why woo. That's a great question, Carol. And when I
ask myself all the time, because I certainly could have
made my life much easier, much easier. Yeah, I think
you know, I'm sort of like this reluctant activist now,
I guess. And I would say it probably started all
the way back in two thousand and eight when I
wrote my book about exposing the abuses in the sport
(06:00):
of gymnastics, which sounds sort of like not controversial now, right,
Everybody's like, oh God, Larry Nassar.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Has that terrible abuse, right, Yeah, no one's probus.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Although I will tell you. You know, when I wrote these
things back in two thousand and eight, it was incredibly controversial.
You have to remember this is before me too, and
for all its excesses, I think that movement did some
good until it probably jumped the shark, and we can
we can talk about that. But you know, the idea
(06:30):
that you could come forward and say this is unacceptable,
this happened to me, that wasn't true in two thousand
and eight, you know, And I because I had continued
to suffer from the abuse over twenty years after I
left the sport, it just felt really important to me
to tell that story in order to help protect young
girls who were still competing. No idea at the time
(06:52):
that NASA was happening, although of course not surprising. The
national team coach in the eighties who I wrote about
was a serial rapist. Essentially, we traveled underage girls around
the world with this man, and everybody whispered about it,
and it was very clear you were not supposed to
talk about it. We were to protect the reputations of
the sport, the federation, as well as these well regarded coaches.
(07:16):
So that was my first experience being you know, really,
I guess dragged across the internet, and it strengthened my
resolve because it just made me feel like, what are
they hiding? This is a true thing that really needs
to be spoken about in order to protect children. I
think that I guess at the end of the day,
I've realized, after however many years, that I can't stand
(07:38):
to see children put in harm's way. And I really
wish somebody had stood up for me when I was
competing and no one did. Everybody accepted the narrative that
we were these like shiny, happy little gymnists bouncing around,
but what was happening is, then.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
How does that happen? How do people ignore saying there
were whispers? And you know, there was a lot of
that in the me too thing. Also, like every time
somebody would get kind of me tooed, there'd be this
chorus of people saying like, oh, everybody knew about him, Like.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
If everybody knew, why didn't anybody do anything? Because at
the time, and again I'll go sort of pre me too,
you knew what would happen to you if you spoke
about it, you would be you know, demonized. The way
I was as a grifter and a liar and a bitter,
angry ex gymnast just trying to make a bug I mean,
never mind the fact I was already a vice president
at Levi's. I was a very successful corporate executive. I
(08:30):
didn't need whatever pittance you make from writing a book,
which ends up being about a dollar an hour, maybe
if you, if you, you know, when all is said
and done, I really did it with the best intentions
to expose these coaches and help protect young girls. And
you know, if USA Gymnastics at the time had taken
some of my claims seriously instead of spending all their
(08:52):
time trying to you know, vilify me and make me
into some sort of a liar, then told numbers of
young athletes would have been saved, not just from Nasar
but from many others. But that's not what they spent
their time doing. They spent their time, you know, questioning
my credibility. And the interesting thing, Carol, was none of
(09:15):
the young women, none of the women we weren't young
even at the time, came to my defense. The women
piled on too because they were sort of, I don't know,
indoctrinated into this kind of coat like environment that was gymnastics,
and they wanted to protect. They wanted to still be
part of it, right, you know, they wanted to be
in good standing. They still were chasing the approval of
(09:37):
these coaches at forty years old. And it's crazy, and
I guess you live in this really microcosmic world and
it becomes normalized. And so what was said was, Oh,
that's not abuse, it's tough coaching. Oh, it's a fuzzy line.
It's not a fuzzy line. I trained on a broken
ankle for two years. Yeah, you know, my weight was
(09:57):
announced in a loud speaker. Food was take can out
of our hands. Our body fat was tested regularly. We're
all in the sort of one to two percent range.
I didn't even get my period till I was nineteen. Wow.
You know, so this is not fuzzy. This is abuse.
This is emotional and physical abuse. And the case that
I make in the book and we then reinforce an
(10:17):
athlete A is that this culture of physical and emotional
abuse lays the groundwork for sexual abuse to occur because
you become so disoriented as a child. You know, I
think you're hungry, you're told you're a fat pig, you
think you're in pain and you know, you're told you're
a lazy piece of garbage, and so you know, imagine
what that's like walking in them to NASCAR's office that disoriented.
(10:40):
And I never did. I was never treated by the man.
Imagine you already questioned your own perception of the.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
World, right, I think you know the whole thing about
kind of training girls and I mean all kids really,
but girls specifically not to speak up in their own defense.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
You see that a lot and the trans movement.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
You're not allowed to say, I don't feel comfortable with
this biological boy sleeping in my room if that boy
says that he's a girl. So it becomes like girls
are told to quiet that voice that kind of makes
them safe, usually that keeps them safe.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
They're told to say, ignore that voice and do what
we tell you.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Be a good little girl, be quiet, sit down. And
within gymnastics, it's this subjective sport. And so if you
speak up and you make yourself a problem, you might
not be chosen for the team. You might not be
even if you make the team, you might not be
picked for the lineup. And so you know, I had
this bizarre childhood where obedience was just drilled into me.
(11:42):
You were to be seen and you were to perform,
and you were not to be heard. And I carried
that with me into adulthood. But I finally got to
the point where I couldn't take it anymore. You know,
I was still suffering, even as this sort of successful
corporate executive. I had. You know, the word trauma is
so overused, but I had terrible nightmares and anxiety and
(12:06):
just terrible imposter syndrome. I thought I was worthless, and
so I wrote the book to kind of sit down
and make sense of it all. And then, of course
it didn't immediately open the floodgates, but eventually people did
come forward. I mean, the Nasar case, you know, blew
the whole thing wide open, and so I think that
sort of laid the groundwork for me to say I
(12:28):
will not abide a lie. The lie in that case was,
you know, these were good, upstanding coaches who wanted what
was best for these children. And so when COVID came around,
and I was at this point considered a lead leader
in this, in the Olympic movement and exposing abuse in
sports from day one, and I think you and I
encountered each other pretty early on I was like, this
(12:51):
is not good for children. And of all the things
that were happening, and of all the liberalism and just
terrible policies, it was what the harm being done to
children then bothered me the most, and the hypocrisy because
in a place like San Francisco, and I believe you
were in still New York. You were still in New
York at the time, you had private schools opening and
(13:11):
published school kids went to school, you know they did.
All four of his kids went to school. And yet
you had everybody screaming at you that you were a
murderer if you advocated for the most vulnerable children. Because
in San Francisco, I think sixty percent of the kids
in public school are on free and reduced lunch. They're living,
you know, either you know, at or below the poverty
(13:33):
line or just above it. These kids did not have
viable conditions at home for this to work.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Not that it worked for anyone, not right, right, right,
But people with means had more opportunities. You know, I
say this all the time that you know, I lived
in a very far left part of Brooklyn, and those
parents either got their kids that's a private tutor, and
they formed a pod, or they moved to their beach house.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And sent them to the open school there, or they
sent them to private schools.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
I mean, they had options, that's right, And so it's
sort of you know, mid milder the impact, although in
the film that I'm making, you'll see that no one
was really spared because the isolation came for everyone. And so,
you know, you and I come from opposite side of
the aisle, I suppose, because I was this good lefty
who had lived in San Francisco my whole life.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Never a good lefty, good, I say, But.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
You know, I look, I don't know what I am now,
but you know, I sort of occupied that kind of
space on the spectrum because what I believed in I
still believe in.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I thought the left believed in, you know, protecting the
vulnerable from greedy corporate interests. I thought the left believed
in protecting children, especially those who are most vulnerable. Free speech,
like all these things I still believe.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
In, right, Right, I don't, at least the public school system, Like,
how does the left not defend the public school system?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
That makes no sense?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
You know, it made no sense. And you know, small
business owners, right, all of it, the left, you know,
it was such a violation of their own stated valleys, right,
And at the end of the day, I just care
about the truth and I care about children, And you know,
I entered into that debate a little bit naively, just
(15:23):
like I answered into the conversation about abuse in sports, thinking, well,
it's it's true, that it's true ad for children, and so
everybody will come around and see it now in gymnastics.
That took ten years from when I first talked about it,
and so I, you know, I underestimated the time that
it would take. And we're still, you know, as you mentioned,
we're starting to see it now, this reckoning. But you know,
(15:45):
I would argue that the most committed true believers on
the activists left still won't acknowledge that, oh, yeah, school
closures were not only ineffective, but incredibly harmful to children.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Right, some of them, I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
And then you have Randy Winegarden, who has rewritten her
role completely. Although she wanted schools open the whole time,
it turns out we just otedgi yeah, fac.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
She also wanted schools open all the time.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
So then you go born in San Francisco, which basically
was recalled in twenty twenty two, and so I guess
I just you know, the brand if we kind of
come back to that which I just launched called XXXY
Athletics again, it feels sort of to me like the
culmination of everything I've ever done in my life, you know,
as a former elite athlete, certainly a beneficiary of Title nine,
(16:34):
started gymnastics just two years after the Title nine passed.
I seem not to mind too much saying controversial things.
I have the patience to kind of keep saying them
until people join the fight. And I'm a seasoned business
executive with a ton of experience in fashion. So you know,
when I thought about how can I contribute to this
conversation and this bizarre cultural conflict is happening about, you know,
(17:00):
essentially the erasure of girls and women and the elimination
of Title nine, I thought this is the way for
me to do it, To start a brand that normalizes
speaking up and standing up for girls, because I think
brands can have significant cultural impact. And unfortunately on the
right or center right, or even sort of the non
far left, they've sort of seeded this territory to the
(17:22):
far left activists. And I'm good at this. I know
how to do it. I'll make great product, really resonant marketing,
and hopefully over time kind of make it okay to
put on the shirt and stand up and say wait
a minute, because you know what, most people agree with
us on this issue, right absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I think when you talk to any kind of normy
person who doesn't spend their lives on Twitter or being
an activist, they'll say, of course.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Biological boys shouldn't be in girls' sports.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
That's so obvious.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcoit Show. You talk about the
brand and making a statement, but I think that your
other point is really important, that you're making a quality product.
I don't think people will buy a brand just to
make a statement for very long. Maybe they'll buy the originals,
(18:13):
you know, but I think your product is so good
that you're going to have kind of a longer, you know, potential,
because you don't you don't want to just be a
statement piece, you know, because that's that's one.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
T shirt and that's it. I think it's a gimmick. Yeah,
it's a gimmick. It's not the way you build a
brand for the long term. People need to love the
product to come back again and again. And so my
goal from the outset was to make world class product
that competes with Nike and Lulu and is just as good,
(18:47):
you know, performs just as well and fits just as well,
and it's flattering and moisture waking in all of those
amazing things, and super cute, so you feel great and
you look great when you're when you're wearing it, because yeah,
of the day, people might buy a cute T shirt
one time, but you're not going to build a brand
for the long term. And you know, we're also unapologetic
(19:08):
about the fact that we're in this to run a
really disciplined business and make money, which doesn't mean that
the point of view isn't heartfelt. And it's a sort
of opening in the marketplace. No one's willing to do this.
I looked around at all the athletic brands, everything from
Nike to Lulu to you know everything in between. They
(19:29):
all claim to stand up for women. Not one has
stood up for women in this case, so it's a lie.
They don't care about women and girls, And in fact,
Nike in particular is notorious for treating actual women and
girls in their ecosystem like garbage, with just utter disregard.
And so you know, when I saw last year Nike
(19:51):
did their little social campaign with Dylan mulvaney in support
of their sports bras, they hired a non athlete, which
they never do, a trans person with no boobs. As
far as I can tell, at least, there's some points
to market a really functional product that we all need
in order to participate in sports. And I went, no, way,
(20:12):
this is not okay. We need to we need to
get back to normalcy. And you know, I still have
a lot of friends who are sort of war on
the left. Everyone to your point is like, yeah, of
course that doesn't make any sense. It's not there. It's
not safe, and you know, we deserve privacy, safety and fairness.
It's really that simple. And so I just want to
encourage people to kind of come out of the shadows
(20:35):
and say the thing they're all thinking. Give them the
confidence to do that.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
So your activism sort of across you know, protecting girls
from predators and then about you know, COVID kind of
overreactions and helping kids recover from that, and now protecting
girls in sports.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Does it have a common theme.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Like a question I ask on the show, is you know,
what do you think is our largest cultural problem? Is
there like a thread that ties those together?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I think so. I think the thread is standing up
for children and speaking truth. It's kind of that simple.
None of these things should be political, not right, This
is not politics. This is about what is true. And
up until about five minutes ago, we all knew that
it was true that male and female bodies are different,
and that's why we created this category of women's sports.
(21:29):
Suddenly we've lost our minds that we don't know that anymore.
Now your sex is what you say it is, and
it's a lie. And I will not carry a lie forward,
not through me. I will not abide it. The thing
that terrifies me is if we can all be forced
to say a lie, anything is possible, right, any terrible
(21:53):
destructive practice is possible, and so I won't. I won't
do it. You know, think about the lie that was
furthered in gymnastics. To go back to a sort of
non controversial now issue, it was that these coaches were all,
you know, well intentioned, and they wanted to develop young
girls and strong young women. That was a lie. They
(22:14):
were harming them. Some of them have been harmed in
ways that are you know, just incredibly lasting. You know,
I know people who were sexually abused in the sport
that really have not recovered yet. They're grown women, so
you know, furthering this lie which we're told is benign,
(22:35):
it's not benign. It's incredibly harmful. And so I think
that's the commonality if it relates to children and the
protection of children, and if it's not grounded in truth,
if there is an ideology or a practice that is
utterly ungrounded in truth, I can't really sit by and
be quiet. And now I'm not afraid anymore, because you know,
(22:58):
after you go through it couple times and you realize
you can survive, Yeah, you realize you can survive, then
you know you're less afraid, and you do realize that
people will join you over time. Most people would rather
stand with the crowd than stand apart and do the
right thing. But slowly but surely you can bring them
over when you speak true, slowly but surely.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
So you've survived and you're not afraid. Do you feel
like you've made it?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Well, I mean, it still stinks, you know, as you know,
and it's like escalated to a new level with this issue.
I actually get voicemails now, which is sort of crazy
and incredibly intrusive, you know, because it's not on social media.
It's like in your ear on the phone. So you know,
at first that was a little upsetting. Now it makes
(23:47):
me laugh. So, you know, I'm starting this new journey.
I'm in my mid fifties. That's a scary thing to do.
I never wanted to be great things. I never wanted
to be a founder, but I believe I have the
constitution for it, and so it's you know, it's going
to be a tough, long journey, but I'm having the
time of my life. I mean, it is so much fun.
(24:08):
But I think the thing about Type A people like
me is you never feel like you've made it. You
just keep striving.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah, I get that. I feel like sometimes I feel
like I've made it and other times less.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah. Yeah, I have my moments. I mean I feel
like I've made it in that I have an amazing family.
I have a great husband who is supportive of me
no matter what. He's a stay at home dad. So
it enables me to kind of really commit myself to
this he loves being a stay at home dad. We
moved to Denver, which was tough. You know, you had
(24:43):
been a lifelong New Yorker. I'd been a lifelong almost
San Franciscan, and I lived there over thirty years. I
loved that place, started over, made new friends. I mean,
this is it. Yeah, this is as good as it gets.
And I get to do my own thing with this
amazing group of talented people and we're having a blast,
and you know, we'll live or die in our own merits.
(25:04):
I think we're going to make it because I think
there's demand for a brand that really stands up for women.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
I think that that's a unique space to occupy, which.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Is sad but true.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
And you know, I see you as a defender of
women and children.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Really. I think that's fair because you know, if we
go back to COVID, that was one of the other
things that I found really upsetting is it was women
that were driven out of the workforce.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I remember all those articles like women say that they're
not you know, working, and that's a problem, Like, really,
what was that that led them to not work?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Could it be schools being closed?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You know? Yeah, I mean, can I know what it
was like trying to work at home. I had four
kids at home. You can imagine what it was like
to work in a corporate environment. When your business goes
like this to this overnight, it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I mean she's pointing out high to low therese people
listening on audio so here.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I mean like we were looking at numbers that were
like down seventy percent versus you know, prior year in
a week. Now, I get this is nuts. And a
lot of women, you know, I think women still haven't
come back to the workforce in the same numbers that
men have, and so it absolutely impacted not only children
but women, and that that was really important to me
(26:26):
as well. So I don't know, We'll see. It's like
it's really weird to start something new at this point
in your life. You know, I thought I would retire,
if not at Levi's, then you know, at some other
fashion apparel company as ideally the CEO the big established company.
I didn't ever have the desire to do a startup.
I didn't want to do all this stuff like, you know,
(26:48):
figure out benefits and find an office, right Yeah, But
I realized I'm pretty good at that, and I'm I
think an exception in that. You know, I came from
having had a team of over a thousand, and I
can work with a team of four and do everything myself.
I like doing it. You know, you get if you
work in corporate America, you get very removed from the
(27:10):
work that you actually love doing, which is making products
and you know great content. You spend a lot of
time in a boardroom deciding you know, who's getting laid
off next, and making PowerPoint presentations and that was no fun.
So I can't really think of anywhere i'd rather be
right now. And we're off to an amazing start, so
(27:30):
I've got I've got really high hopes. So we'll see.
I guess I've made it. If being happy is making it,
then that's it. Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've loved talking to and here.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
With your best tip for my listeners on how they
can improve their lives. Maybe, you know, make changes to
themselves or to the world around them like you do.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I think you have to be able to look yourself
in the mirror, and I think you have to be
able to speak truth when it is necessary. I just
you know, at the end of the day I started
my COVID dissenting, sort of naively thinking, well, this is
so obvious. Everyone's as I you know, as I progress,
I realize, okay, people aren't coming around. But I persisted
(28:15):
because it was important and I feel like I live
a life of integrity, and that's part of why I
feel happy. And I think I would be rotting on
the inside if I hadn't. And I, you know, shut
up just to maintain a reputation that was built on
falsehoods and me staying quiet, How could I call myself,
(28:37):
you know, a woman that is confident and says true things,
and even a feminists, which I do consider myself. If
feminism is you know, women deserve equality of opportunity, well
you got to live that. You gotta fight for it absolutely. So,
you know, I think if you surround yourself with great
people who support you and you live in the truth
(29:02):
this is good things will happen. It might be hard,
but good things will happen, and you'll feel whole as
a person. That's the thing. I couldn't live any other way.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
She is Jennifer Say check out her brand XXXY.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Really love talking to you, Jennifer, Thank.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
You, thank you. For having me. Carol, it's great to
see you.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitz Show.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Show on iHeartRadio. Last episode, I suggested that single people
do a digital detox for the summer and cut off
all online dating, go the analog route, meet people in
real life. But it's funny because all the emails I've
gotten about that monologue are from non single people saying
(00:32):
they too, are thinking of taking a digital break this summer.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I've talked about this on the show before.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Because for so many people, just being online is such
a problem, and they know that they are on too
much and they know that they would be happier if
they weren't.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I am one of those.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
People for sure, And every summer I take a few
weeks off from Twitter, and it's very hard.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I struggle with it a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I take the app off my phone, and I've told
the story on here because I can't have the icon
on my phone because I'll be clicking it, and in fact,
my finger clicks the blank space for many days before
it gets used to the.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
App not being there.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Having said all that, I love my Twitter break and
I look forward to it every summer, and it's Twitter
that I take a break from because Twitter is my
problem app. I just don't have that same kind of addictive.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Behavior with other apps.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
If you're thinking of a phone break or a specific
app break.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Do it.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Summer is a really good time to do that, as
things slow down a little bit. I can also assure
you that the big stories that I miss when I'm
on my Twitter break have mostly disappeared by the time
I get back online. It's actually amazing to watch how
a news cycle happens.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
And then just I feel like.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
People are hungry for a break from being online. I
think some people maybe just need permission to take one.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So this is it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
This is your signal to make a serious break with
your phone.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
It can be an.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
App you're addicted to, or texting or all of it.
Give yourself a set time. I like to do two weeks,
nothing crazy. You can do shorter, you can do longer.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Again.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
For single people, I would suggest a whole summer of
no dating apps, just to see if the sensation of
being off them will lead you to meet somebody offline.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
We don't have to ditch the internet forever.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I love the Internet, but we all know we overuse
and abuse it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So let's take a break together and see how it goes.
Coming up next and interview with Jennifer Say. Join us
after the break. Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show
on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Jennifer Say. This is
going to be a longer intro than I normally give you, guys,
(03:05):
because I really want to sum up.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Who Jennifer Say is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Jennifer's an American author, filmmaker, business executive, and retired artistic gymnast.
She was a seven time member of the US women's
national team and was the nineteen eighty six US women's
all around national champion. Her first memoir, Chalked Up, was
released in two thousand and eight and detailed abuse in
the sport of gymnastics. Say also produced the twenty twenty
(03:31):
Emmy Award winning documentary film athlet Athlete a on Netflix,
which connected the crimes of Larry Nasser to the broader
abuses in the Olympic movement. Say began working at Levi
Straussen Coe in nineteen ninety nine, rising to Chief Marketing
Officer and then brand president. She was named one of
Billboard's Most Powerful People in Music and Fashion in twenty sixteen,
(03:55):
and was twice named to Forbes' Most Influential CMO List
in twenty nineteen eight twenty twenty. Starting in twenty twenty,
she risked her reputation, community and friendships to speak up
against the harm being done to children due to the
extended closure of San Francisco, Cisco's public schools. She resigned
from Levi's in twenty twenty two very publicly, and has
(04:17):
been focused on her own writing and filmmaking projects. She
has a documentary film in post production called Jennifer Sorry,
Generate Jennifer Covid Generation Covid about the harms Yeah, about
the harms to children from prolonged school closures, And now
she is starting her own brand, xx Xy Athletics. She's
(04:37):
the mother of four and lives in Denver with her family. Jennifer,
So nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Thank you for having me, Carol, It's so great to
talk to you.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I have to start off by telling you that a
lot of non political or maybe like mildly political people
in my life really love you. And that's really why
I wanted to give your full intro, because I wanted
people to like get you know your I interview a
lot of different kinds of people on this show, but
I think you're sort of a unique person. I've had
friends in New York who would say to me, you
(05:07):
know who, I like that, Jennifer say, and so what's
interesting to me about that is you have all this
crossover appeal. You could have picked a completely safe political
issue to engage in. You could have gone into, you know,
climate change activism. Nobody would have ever sent you any
hate mail. But you famously fought to open schools during
(05:28):
the pandemic, something that everyone now believes was the right
thing to do, obviously, And now you have xxxy athletics
and you're fighting for girls sports.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Why woo. That's a great question, Carol. And when I
ask myself all the time, because I certainly could have
made my life much easier, much easier. Yeah, I think
you know, I'm sort of like this reluctant activist now,
I guess. And I would say it probably started all
the way back in two thousand and eight when I
wrote my book about exposing the abuses in the sport
(06:00):
of gymnastics, which sounds sort of like not controversial now, right,
Everybody's like, oh God, Larry Nassar.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Has that terrible abuse, right, Yeah, no one's probus.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Although I will tell you. You know, when I wrote these
things back in two thousand and eight, it was incredibly controversial.
You have to remember this is before me too, and
for all its excesses, I think that movement did some
good until it probably jumped the shark, and we can
we can talk about that. But you know, the idea
(06:30):
that you could come forward and say this is unacceptable,
this happened to me, that wasn't true in two thousand
and eight, you know, And I because I had continued
to suffer from the abuse over twenty years after I
left the sport, it just felt really important to me
to tell that story in order to help protect young
girls who were still competing. No idea at the time
(06:52):
that NASA was happening, although of course not surprising. The
national team coach in the eighties who I wrote about
was a serial rapist. Essentially, we traveled underage girls around
the world with this man, and everybody whispered about it,
and it was very clear you were not supposed to
talk about it. We were to protect the reputations of
the sport, the federation, as well as these well regarded coaches.
(07:16):
So that was my first experience being you know, really,
I guess dragged across the internet, and it strengthened my
resolve because it just made me feel like, what are
they hiding? This is a true thing that really needs
to be spoken about in order to protect children. I
think that I guess at the end of the day,
I've realized, after however many years, that I can't stand
(07:38):
to see children put in harm's way. And I really
wish somebody had stood up for me when I was
competing and no one did. Everybody accepted the narrative that
we were these like shiny, happy little gymnists bouncing around,
but what was happening is, then.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
How does that happen? How do people ignore saying there
were whispers? And you know, there was a lot of
that in the me too thing. Also, like every time
somebody would get kind of me tooed, there'd be this
chorus of people saying like, oh, everybody knew about him, Like.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
If everybody knew, why didn't anybody do anything? Because at
the time, and again I'll go sort of pre me too,
you knew what would happen to you if you spoke
about it, you would be you know, demonized. The way
I was as a grifter and a liar and a bitter,
angry ex gymnast just trying to make a bug I mean,
never mind the fact I was already a vice president
at Levi's. I was a very successful corporate executive. I
(08:30):
didn't need whatever pittance you make from writing a book,
which ends up being about a dollar an hour, maybe
if you, if you, you know, when all is said
and done, I really did it with the best intentions
to expose these coaches and help protect young girls. And
you know, if USA Gymnastics at the time had taken
some of my claims seriously instead of spending all their
(08:52):
time trying to you know, vilify me and make me
into some sort of a liar, then told numbers of
young athletes would have been saved, not just from Nasar
but from many others. But that's not what they spent
their time doing. They spent their time, you know, questioning
my credibility. And the interesting thing, Carol, was none of
(09:15):
the young women, none of the women we weren't young
even at the time, came to my defense. The women
piled on too because they were sort of, I don't know,
indoctrinated into this kind of coat like environment that was gymnastics,
and they wanted to protect. They wanted to still be
part of it, right, you know, they wanted to be
in good standing. They still were chasing the approval of
(09:37):
these coaches at forty years old. And it's crazy, and
I guess you live in this really microcosmic world and
it becomes normalized. And so what was said was, Oh,
that's not abuse, it's tough coaching. Oh, it's a fuzzy line.
It's not a fuzzy line. I trained on a broken
ankle for two years. Yeah, you know, my weight was
(09:57):
announced in a loud speaker. Food was take can out
of our hands. Our body fat was tested regularly. We're
all in the sort of one to two percent range.
I didn't even get my period till I was nineteen. Wow.
You know, so this is not fuzzy. This is abuse.
This is emotional and physical abuse. And the case that
I make in the book and we then reinforce an
(10:17):
athlete A is that this culture of physical and emotional
abuse lays the groundwork for sexual abuse to occur because
you become so disoriented as a child. You know, I
think you're hungry, you're told you're a fat pig, you
think you're in pain and you know, you're told you're
a lazy piece of garbage, and so you know, imagine
what that's like walking in them to NASCAR's office that disoriented.
(10:40):
And I never did. I was never treated by the man.
Imagine you already questioned your own perception of the.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
World, right, I think you know the whole thing about
kind of training girls and I mean all kids really,
but girls specifically not to speak up in their own defense.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
You see that a lot and the trans movement.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
You're not allowed to say, I don't feel comfortable with
this biological boy sleeping in my room if that boy
says that he's a girl. So it becomes like girls
are told to quiet that voice that kind of makes
them safe, usually that keeps them safe.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
They're told to say, ignore that voice and do what
we tell you.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Be a good little girl, be quiet, sit down. And
within gymnastics, it's this subjective sport. And so if you
speak up and you make yourself a problem, you might
not be chosen for the team. You might not be
even if you make the team, you might not be
picked for the lineup. And so you know, I had
this bizarre childhood where obedience was just drilled into me.
(11:42):
You were to be seen and you were to perform,
and you were not to be heard. And I carried
that with me into adulthood. But I finally got to
the point where I couldn't take it anymore. You know,
I was still suffering, even as this sort of successful
corporate executive. I had. You know, the word trauma is
so overused, but I had terrible nightmares and anxiety and
(12:06):
just terrible imposter syndrome. I thought I was worthless, and
so I wrote the book to kind of sit down
and make sense of it all. And then, of course
it didn't immediately open the floodgates, but eventually people did
come forward. I mean, the Nasar case, you know, blew
the whole thing wide open, and so I think that
sort of laid the groundwork for me to say I
(12:28):
will not abide a lie. The lie in that case was,
you know, these were good, upstanding coaches who wanted what
was best for these children. And so when COVID came around,
and I was at this point considered a lead leader
in this, in the Olympic movement and exposing abuse in
sports from day one, and I think you and I
encountered each other pretty early on I was like, this
(12:51):
is not good for children. And of all the things
that were happening, and of all the liberalism and just
terrible policies, it was what the harm being done to
children then bothered me the most, and the hypocrisy because
in a place like San Francisco, and I believe you
were in still New York. You were still in New
York at the time, you had private schools opening and
(13:11):
published school kids went to school, you know they did.
All four of his kids went to school. And yet
you had everybody screaming at you that you were a
murderer if you advocated for the most vulnerable children. Because
in San Francisco, I think sixty percent of the kids
in public school are on free and reduced lunch. They're living,
you know, either you know, at or below the poverty
(13:33):
line or just above it. These kids did not have
viable conditions at home for this to work.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Not that it worked for anyone, not right, right, right,
But people with means had more opportunities. You know, I
say this all the time that you know, I lived
in a very far left part of Brooklyn, and those
parents either got their kids that's a private tutor, and
they formed a pod, or they moved to their beach house.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And sent them to the open school there, or they
sent them to private schools.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
I mean, they had options, that's right, And so it's
sort of you know, mid milder the impact, although in
the film that I'm making, you'll see that no one
was really spared because the isolation came for everyone. And so,
you know, you and I come from opposite side of
the aisle, I suppose, because I was this good lefty
who had lived in San Francisco my whole life.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Never a good lefty, good, I say, But.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
You know, I look, I don't know what I am now,
but you know, I sort of occupied that kind of
space on the spectrum because what I believed in I
still believe in.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I thought the left believed in, you know, protecting the
vulnerable from greedy corporate interests. I thought the left believed
in protecting children, especially those who are most vulnerable. Free speech,
like all these things I still believe.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
In, right, Right, I don't, at least the public school system, Like,
how does the left not defend the public school system?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
That makes no sense?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
You know, it made no sense. And you know, small
business owners, right, all of it, the left, you know,
it was such a violation of their own stated valleys, right,
And at the end of the day, I just care
about the truth and I care about children, And you know,
I entered into that debate a little bit naively, just
(15:23):
like I answered into the conversation about abuse in sports, thinking, well,
it's it's true, that it's true ad for children, and so
everybody will come around and see it now in gymnastics.
That took ten years from when I first talked about it,
and so I, you know, I underestimated the time that
it would take. And we're still, you know, as you mentioned,
we're starting to see it now, this reckoning. But you know,
(15:45):
I would argue that the most committed true believers on
the activists left still won't acknowledge that, oh, yeah, school
closures were not only ineffective, but incredibly harmful to children.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Right, some of them, I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
And then you have Randy Winegarden, who has rewritten her
role completely. Although she wanted schools open the whole time,
it turns out we just otedgi yeah, fac.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
She also wanted schools open all the time.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
So then you go born in San Francisco, which basically
was recalled in twenty twenty two, and so I guess
I just you know, the brand if we kind of
come back to that which I just launched called XXXY
Athletics again, it feels sort of to me like the
culmination of everything I've ever done in my life, you know,
as a former elite athlete, certainly a beneficiary of Title nine,
(16:34):
started gymnastics just two years after the Title nine passed.
I seem not to mind too much saying controversial things.
I have the patience to kind of keep saying them
until people join the fight. And I'm a seasoned business
executive with a ton of experience in fashion. So you know,
when I thought about how can I contribute to this
conversation and this bizarre cultural conflict is happening about, you know,
(17:00):
essentially the erasure of girls and women and the elimination
of Title nine, I thought this is the way for
me to do it, To start a brand that normalizes
speaking up and standing up for girls, because I think
brands can have significant cultural impact. And unfortunately on the
right or center right, or even sort of the non
far left, they've sort of seeded this territory to the
(17:22):
far left activists. And I'm good at this. I know
how to do it. I'll make great product, really resonant marketing,
and hopefully over time kind of make it okay to
put on the shirt and stand up and say wait
a minute, because you know what, most people agree with
us on this issue, right absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I think when you talk to any kind of normy
person who doesn't spend their lives on Twitter or being
an activist, they'll say, of course.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Biological boys shouldn't be in girls' sports.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
That's so obvious.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcoit Show. You talk about the
brand and making a statement, but I think that your
other point is really important, that you're making a quality product.
I don't think people will buy a brand just to
make a statement for very long. Maybe they'll buy the originals,
(18:13):
you know, but I think your product is so good
that you're going to have kind of a longer, you know, potential,
because you don't you don't want to just be a
statement piece, you know, because that's that's one.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
T shirt and that's it. I think it's a gimmick. Yeah,
it's a gimmick. It's not the way you build a
brand for the long term. People need to love the
product to come back again and again. And so my
goal from the outset was to make world class product
that competes with Nike and Lulu and is just as good,
(18:47):
you know, performs just as well and fits just as well,
and it's flattering and moisture waking in all of those
amazing things, and super cute, so you feel great and
you look great when you're when you're wearing it, because yeah,
of the day, people might buy a cute T shirt
one time, but you're not going to build a brand
for the long term. And you know, we're also unapologetic
(19:08):
about the fact that we're in this to run a
really disciplined business and make money, which doesn't mean that
the point of view isn't heartfelt. And it's a sort
of opening in the marketplace. No one's willing to do this.
I looked around at all the athletic brands, everything from
Nike to Lulu to you know everything in between. They
(19:29):
all claim to stand up for women. Not one has
stood up for women in this case, so it's a lie.
They don't care about women and girls, And in fact,
Nike in particular is notorious for treating actual women and
girls in their ecosystem like garbage, with just utter disregard.
And so you know, when I saw last year Nike
(19:51):
did their little social campaign with Dylan mulvaney in support
of their sports bras, they hired a non athlete, which
they never do, a trans person with no boobs. As
far as I can tell, at least, there's some points
to market a really functional product that we all need
in order to participate in sports. And I went, no, way,
(20:12):
this is not okay. We need to we need to
get back to normalcy. And you know, I still have
a lot of friends who are sort of war on
the left. Everyone to your point is like, yeah, of
course that doesn't make any sense. It's not there. It's
not safe, and you know, we deserve privacy, safety and fairness.
It's really that simple. And so I just want to
encourage people to kind of come out of the shadows
(20:35):
and say the thing they're all thinking. Give them the
confidence to do that.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
So your activism sort of across you know, protecting girls
from predators and then about you know, COVID kind of
overreactions and helping kids recover from that, and now protecting
girls in sports.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Does it have a common theme.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Like a question I ask on the show, is you know,
what do you think is our largest cultural problem? Is
there like a thread that ties those together?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I think so. I think the thread is standing up
for children and speaking truth. It's kind of that simple.
None of these things should be political, not right, This
is not politics. This is about what is true. And
up until about five minutes ago, we all knew that
it was true that male and female bodies are different,
and that's why we created this category of women's sports.
(21:29):
Suddenly we've lost our minds that we don't know that anymore.
Now your sex is what you say it is, and
it's a lie. And I will not carry a lie forward,
not through me. I will not abide it. The thing
that terrifies me is if we can all be forced
to say a lie, anything is possible, right, any terrible
(21:53):
destructive practice is possible, and so I won't. I won't
do it. You know, think about the lie that was
furthered in gymnastics. To go back to a sort of
non controversial now issue, it was that these coaches were all,
you know, well intentioned, and they wanted to develop young
girls and strong young women. That was a lie. They
(22:14):
were harming them. Some of them have been harmed in
ways that are you know, just incredibly lasting. You know,
I know people who were sexually abused in the sport
that really have not recovered yet. They're grown women, so
you know, furthering this lie which we're told is benign,
(22:35):
it's not benign. It's incredibly harmful. And so I think
that's the commonality if it relates to children and the
protection of children, and if it's not grounded in truth,
if there is an ideology or a practice that is
utterly ungrounded in truth, I can't really sit by and
be quiet. And now I'm not afraid anymore, because you know,
(22:58):
after you go through it couple times and you realize
you can survive, Yeah, you realize you can survive, then
you know you're less afraid, and you do realize that
people will join you over time. Most people would rather
stand with the crowd than stand apart and do the
right thing. But slowly but surely you can bring them
over when you speak true, slowly but surely.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
So you've survived and you're not afraid. Do you feel
like you've made it?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Well, I mean, it still stinks, you know, as you know,
and it's like escalated to a new level with this issue.
I actually get voicemails now, which is sort of crazy
and incredibly intrusive, you know, because it's not on social media.
It's like in your ear on the phone. So you know,
at first that was a little upsetting. Now it makes
(23:47):
me laugh. So, you know, I'm starting this new journey.
I'm in my mid fifties. That's a scary thing to do.
I never wanted to be great things. I never wanted
to be a founder, but I believe I have the
constitution for it, and so it's you know, it's going
to be a tough, long journey, but I'm having the
time of my life. I mean, it is so much fun.
(24:08):
But I think the thing about Type A people like
me is you never feel like you've made it. You
just keep striving.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah, I get that. I feel like sometimes I feel
like I've made it and other times less.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah. Yeah, I have my moments. I mean I feel
like I've made it in that I have an amazing family.
I have a great husband who is supportive of me
no matter what. He's a stay at home dad. So
it enables me to kind of really commit myself to
this he loves being a stay at home dad. We
moved to Denver, which was tough. You know, you had
(24:43):
been a lifelong New Yorker. I'd been a lifelong almost
San Franciscan, and I lived there over thirty years. I
loved that place, started over, made new friends. I mean,
this is it. Yeah, this is as good as it gets.
And I get to do my own thing with this
amazing group of talented people and we're having a blast,
and you know, we'll live or die in our own merits.
(25:04):
I think we're going to make it because I think
there's demand for a brand that really stands up for women.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
I think that that's a unique space to occupy, which.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Is sad but true.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
And you know, I see you as a defender of
women and children.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Really. I think that's fair because you know, if we
go back to COVID, that was one of the other
things that I found really upsetting is it was women
that were driven out of the workforce.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I remember all those articles like women say that they're
not you know, working, and that's a problem, Like, really,
what was that that led them to not work?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Could it be schools being closed?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You know? Yeah, I mean, can I know what it
was like trying to work at home. I had four
kids at home. You can imagine what it was like
to work in a corporate environment. When your business goes
like this to this overnight, it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I mean she's pointing out high to low therese people
listening on audio so here.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I mean like we were looking at numbers that were
like down seventy percent versus you know, prior year in
a week. Now, I get this is nuts. And a
lot of women, you know, I think women still haven't
come back to the workforce in the same numbers that
men have, and so it absolutely impacted not only children
but women, and that that was really important to me
(26:26):
as well. So I don't know, We'll see. It's like
it's really weird to start something new at this point
in your life. You know, I thought I would retire,
if not at Levi's, then you know, at some other
fashion apparel company as ideally the CEO the big established company.
I didn't ever have the desire to do a startup.
I didn't want to do all this stuff like, you know,
(26:48):
figure out benefits and find an office, right Yeah, But
I realized I'm pretty good at that, and I'm I
think an exception in that. You know, I came from
having had a team of over a thousand, and I
can work with a team of four and do everything myself.
I like doing it. You know, you get if you
work in corporate America, you get very removed from the
(27:10):
work that you actually love doing, which is making products
and you know great content. You spend a lot of
time in a boardroom deciding you know, who's getting laid
off next, and making PowerPoint presentations and that was no fun.
So I can't really think of anywhere i'd rather be
right now. And we're off to an amazing start, so
(27:30):
I've got I've got really high hopes. So we'll see.
I guess I've made it. If being happy is making it,
then that's it. Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've loved talking to and here.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
With your best tip for my listeners on how they
can improve their lives. Maybe, you know, make changes to
themselves or to the world around them like you do.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I think you have to be able to look yourself
in the mirror, and I think you have to be
able to speak truth when it is necessary. I just
you know, at the end of the day I started
my COVID dissenting, sort of naively thinking, well, this is
so obvious. Everyone's as I you know, as I progress,
I realize, okay, people aren't coming around. But I persisted
(28:15):
because it was important and I feel like I live
a life of integrity, and that's part of why I
feel happy. And I think I would be rotting on
the inside if I hadn't. And I, you know, shut
up just to maintain a reputation that was built on
falsehoods and me staying quiet, How could I call myself,
(28:37):
you know, a woman that is confident and says true things,
and even a feminists, which I do consider myself. If
feminism is you know, women deserve equality of opportunity, well
you got to live that. You gotta fight for it absolutely. So,
you know, I think if you surround yourself with great
people who support you and you live in the truth
(29:02):
this is good things will happen. It might be hard,
but good things will happen, and you'll feel whole as
a person. That's the thing. I couldn't live any other way.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
She is Jennifer Say check out her brand XXXY.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Really love talking to you, Jennifer, Thank.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
You, thank you. For having me. Carol, it's great to
see you.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitz Show.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Karol Markowicz
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