April 22, 2024 • 27 mins
In this conversation, Karol interviews Nick Gillespie, editor at large at Reason magazine and host of the Reason Interview. They discuss Gillespie's background, his career path, and his libertarian views. Gillespie shares that he was always drawn to libertarianism and individualism, and he believes in limited government and personal responsibility. They also discuss the shift in the libertarian movement and the challenges of living in a world with abundant freedom and options. Gillespie emphasizes the importance of staying open-minded, taking responsibility for one's life, and remaining optimistic about the future. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have a fourteen year old daughter.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
So it's Taylor Swift Mania in our house. It's been
the background music to our entire lives for a bit,
but right now it's really in overdrive. A line from
a Taylor song that was released last year has been
in my mind. The song is now that we don't talk,
and the line is I called my mom.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
She said to get it off my chest.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
And I always jokingly point out to my daughter like, look,
Taylor calls her mom. You know, when you grow up,
maybe you should call your mom and they talk about stuff,
and maybe we should talk about stuff. So I'm planting
the seeds. But I think about things like this, like
getting things off your chest a lot, because I'm someone
who holds everything in. Every once in a while, I'll
(00:56):
surprise my husband with like a bunch of bad news
that I've been holding inside. I mean, nothing too bad,
maybe in argument with someone or worries I have, but
the kind of bad that burns and turns into something
far worse than it is when you don't let it out.
Last week, I talked about knowing what will make you
(01:17):
feel better and still not doing it. You know, the
whole reading fiction before bed. I know that makes me
feel better than scrolling, and yet I still don't do it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And that's really the hardest part to overcome. When you
don't know what's wrong, that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
It's when you know something is good for you, but
you just don't do it anyway. I mean, it makes
me feel kind of dumb. There's this meme going around
where a girl says she's not feeling well and another
voice asks her a bunch of questions about what it
could be.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Let's play the clip.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
It's feeling only down these days. I don't know. Why
have you exercised today?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Did you go outside?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Did you talk to anyone?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Did you eat well?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Did you limit your scrolling time? No? Do you make
any plans?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Did you drink enough water? Did you get enough sleep?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Now? Wait?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yes, yes to that one.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
No, it's what a mystery? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I mean I find myself asking those questions of myself
a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It gets very.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Easy to stay in my own head and just do
about things and then wonder why I'm not sleeping at
three am? And all of these things. You know, eating,
going outside. It's just better living through doing really simple things.
What a concept. I don't have the answer on how
to get yourself to do the things that will improve
your life, but the easy ones like going outside or eating,
(02:35):
or talking to someone if something is bothering you should
be where we all start again. I'm far from perfect
on this, but it's something I'm working on and maybe
we can do it together. I love your emails. I've
gotten so many good ones about things that you guys
do to improve your lives. Please keep them coming. It's
(02:56):
Carol marco It Show at gmail dot com and I'll
read some in the next few episodes. Coming up next
an interview with Nick Gillespie. Join us after the break.
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Nick Gillespie, Editor at Large at Reason,
(03:16):
the libertarian magazine of free minds and free markets, and
host of the Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Hi, Nick, Hey, how are you doing. Carol? Nice to
talk with you.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So nice to have you on.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
When I was thinking about how to introduce you and
I was looking up your bio, I was thinking, you know,
Nick Gillespie, the libertarian, you know, the icon of the libertarian.
You're an icon in the libertarian movement for sure. Man
about town in New York, and just I think I
really do think of you when I think of libertarians
(03:49):
in general.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Would explain why we, you know, aren't better known. But
I appreciate the sentiment.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
What would you be doing if you weren't doing this? Like,
what would be a plan be for you?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
So it would have been probably it would most conceivably
one of two different outcomes. One is that when I
graduated from college, I'm sixty. I graduated college in nineteen
eighty eight.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's crazy, by the way, you are, like just.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Really young looking.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I did not inherit any money literally from my parents,
but I inherited something, you know, and so I thank
them for.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
That great hair.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Yeah, and it's all natural, Like none of this is
you know. I love human ingenuity and kind of staving
off aging and increasing what we can do. But I
haven't done any of that, but the two things. So
I graduated college. I was an English and psychology major
at Rutgers University. I was born in Brooklyn, grew up
(04:51):
in New Jersey, went to Rutgers, and I ended up writing.
I became a journalist because I wrote. When I was
in college, I worked on our daily newspaper with which
had a paying gig and everything, so it was very nice.
And I worked for a bunch of teen magazines and
music magazines in the late eighties. And I think, if
I was not doing what I'm doing now, I would
(05:12):
be an entertainment journalist. So I would be staking out
you know, Kardashian hideaways and things like that.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
That sounds great. Why aren't you doing that?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I think about that on an almost hourly basis. But
then you know what happened towards After a few years
of doing that in New York and for you know,
kind of third rate magazines, which were a lot of
fun and whatnot. But I decided to go to grad
school for English, for creative writing and literary studies, and
I was going to be a professor. Wow, and what happened.
(05:43):
So I got a master's in English and creative writing
at a Temple University in Philly. Then I moved to Buffalo.
I met my future wife and ex wife, mother of
my children, where on very good terms, we spend Christmas
and holidays together. But we went to Buffalo to get
PhDs in English, and I was an American, so I
(06:03):
studied American literature. I was going to become an English professor.
And then Reason magazine, which I had been reading since
I was in high school, had a job opening that
they advertised in their pages. This was in nineteen ninety three,
and I applied for it and I got the job,
and then I've been there ever since. So the short
version is I would be running a teen magazine if
(06:26):
they even still exist, or a heavy metal magazine, or
i'd be a college profess.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
What teen magazines did you write for?
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I wrote for. This was a company called Sterling's Magazines.
I believe it's out of business. I wrote for two
magazines there. One was called Teen Machine and the other
that Super Teen. And yeah, so that's what I was
doing in the in the late eighties.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Interesting, I was going to guess, do you remember the
teen magazine Sase?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yes, like it was really.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Key, Yeah I was. I was. I was not Sassy material.
Sassy was like the New Yorker of teen magazine.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I used to wait at the like newstand to get
my Sassy. I didn't understand the whole concept of subscribing
I just know, I knew the day it came out,
and I'd wait by the news dand and I was
so like, I loved it so much, and it was
very you know, looking back, it was definitely left of center,
but it was very be yourself, think whatever you want
(07:30):
to think, don't let anybody tell you what to think.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
And I don't think you could do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
I don't think you could have a sassy magazine for
teenagers that you know, courages them to be themselves and
think whatever they want. Now.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, it's that's interesting, and I'd be curious to think
about Sassy versus something like teen Vogue right where Sassy
was sexually forward, especially for the day. It was talking
about you know, kind of you know, harder issues than
most teen magazines, So you know, how do you win
a dream day with Turk Cameron or something? Right, But yeah,
(08:04):
it's it's fascinating to think about celebrity culture and the
way that that is a venue for kind of talking
about larger issues.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
And you could be making a difference in your backup career.
You could be changing things.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
You know, It's true. I could be at getting in
early right and making the anxious generation as John High
would call it, Yes, super anxious because I'd be like, hey,
you know what, everything the government is telling you is
li lie.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
But are you always a libertarian, like even back then
when you're writing for those teen magazines?
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Yeah, I would say so. I, Like I said, I
started reading Reason in high school. My brother, who's older
than me, was the first person in our family to
go to college, and he discovered Reason when he was
at college, and he brought it home for me, or
started sending me his old issues, and I was just
kind of like, I was much more into literature and
kind of movies and TV, but I was reading and
(08:59):
I was like, oh, this makes a lot of sense.
This makes a lot of sense. I stumbled across Milton
Friedman's Free to Choose Milton Rose Friedman's book, which had
been also made into a PBS series, and I started,
you know, what I liked about libertarianism was the idea
that it was individualistic, you know. And it's not that
(09:19):
being a libertarian doesn't mean you don't build communities, but
it's you know, you recognize you are responsible for yourself,
you know, and you need to do things. Nobody's going
to do things for you. And that really appealed to me.
I was also a teenage existentialist. I came across people
like Albert Camu and John Paul Sart and whatnot, and
(09:42):
and so libertarianism resonated with me. But in a lot
of ways, what resonated the most was that the Reason magazine,
and back then it was talking more about probably more
about economics than cultural issues, but also political issues. But
it was saying, you know what, like the truth is
much more complicated than what you're being told. It was,
(10:02):
you know, and I was like, wow, this is amazing.
It was like a secret history of reality that accorded
with my sense of things. You know that certain people
were always trying to tell you this is good for you.
You know, you have to do this, not like you
should do this, but like you have to. And so
that resonated. And by the time I got to college,
and certainly after college, I would call I called myself libertarian,
(10:27):
but you know, it was not front and center in
a sense. I mean, one of the things that I
think is really negative about the past, you know, forty
or fifty years, is that politics has moved from a
place where it's part of our identity to where it
is almost always or not always, but often the first
part of our identity. We call ourselves conservatives, progressives, libertarians,
(10:50):
you know, liberals, whatever, you know, right out of the bat.
And I think we'd be in a better world if
we were like, you know what, like I'm a human first,
and you know, whatever your political or ideological you know,
kind of commitments are, it's maybe fourth or fifth.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Interesting, Yeah, I definitely. I mean, I admit that my
political affiliation is very much front and center of who
I am. I consider myself libertarian adjacent. I think that
there were periods in my life where I thought I.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Was more libertarian than maybe I do today.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
My fourteen year old daughter is like clearly going to
be a libertarian.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I don't know how to veer her off that path.
And I just kidding, you know what, it's great, it's great,
it's great.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
It's really hard. But the best way to do it,
I think, And I said, you know, I have two
grown children now, but the best way is to let
them be responsible, you know. And obviously there's gradations in this.
You know, a fourteen year old can't make decisions that
a twenty eight year old is going to make, or
a set, you know, but they make more than a
seven year old or something. But let them make decisions
(11:53):
and let them live with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Right. She's just always very like, no matter what anybody says,
she's always like, how's that.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
The government's role?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And I'm like, God, oh yeah, how did I have
one of you? You know?
Speaker 4 (12:06):
What's funny about that is, weirdly, over my time at Reason,
which has now been I've been here, I'm in my
thirty first year at Reason. Reason was founded in nineteen
sixty eight, so I've been around for a long time.
But even over the time I've been at Reason, I'd
say the libertarian movement has moved from being kind of
about limited government, like smaller government, and kind of a
(12:27):
classical liberal view where government is not necessarily a criminal organization,
but it should be small, and it should be targeted
and it should be held to high standards. To a
lot of libertarians now really are anarchists, and they think
any government action at any level is not just likely
to be inefficient or incompetent, but it's actually like immoral
(12:51):
or evil. I don't subscribe to that, but it's kind
of fascinating to see why has that happened, and in
a weird way, I think a lot of Republicans and Democrats,
a lot of liberals and progressives or conservatives to leave
that too. And I wrote a piece a couple of
years ago for Reason talking about how what happens, you know,
when you move from being a high trust society to
(13:13):
a low trust society. In America has been doing that. Oddly,
people call for more government even though they know the
government is going to be bad a right doing, and
what we really need is a government that does fewer
things but does them competently and efficiently.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Right. So, yeah, I mean I have to say that
that's I feel that shift in myself. Like I used
to be very the government should just not do anything.
And I look, if everybody subscribed to that point of view,
I'm in. I'm in for smaller, smaller government. But it
turns out that it's like the left doesn't want smaller government.
So when they get controlled, they grow the government and
(13:50):
they and they have more power.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So but COVID years are really my example of this.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's like in New York, it was like the governor's
going to have control over whether school's open, But in Florida,
the left push to have local control, not the governor control.
So it's always I felt like I was losing no
matter where, no matter what I mean. It definitely made
me more pro individual pro you know. So I don't know,
(14:16):
so maybe I am a libertarian somewhere in there. I
just know. It's like the labels don't matter, but they
kind of matter.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Yeah, And you know, I tend to use libertarian now
as an adjective rather than a noun, because I think
I think libertarian. Being libertarian is a kind of pre
political sensibility. It's kind of a temperament and it's you know,
it's a direction. It's not a set of dogma. And
you can be a libertarian Democrat or a libertarian Republican.
(14:44):
You can be a libertarian libertarian, you know, with capital
l or something. And I you know, for me, I
think government policies tend to work best when they're smaller
in scale, you know, because then the stakes are lower.
But also they can be more targeted and things work
batter when when decisions get devolved down to the individual
or as close to the individual as top that's it, yeah,
(15:06):
not utopia, but you know, so for instance, like I'm
not against a social safety net. But I think rather
than having food stamps, you know, where the government gives
you a plastic card and said you can buy you know,
you can buy whole milk, but not skim milk or
something like that. You know, it should just be for
a small number of people who need help. Give them
cash grants and trust them and give them the autonomy
(15:29):
to make decisions with that.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
You know, and if you you could just see where
the problem is going to happen, right you know, it's
not going to stay small, It's going to grow.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
It's like that, this is where the issues all come up.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Yeah, and this is also part of it, though, is
you know, if we become you know, more cognizant of
the problems. You know, right now, I used to write
a lot about this, but about old age entitlements and
you know, things like Social Security and medicare. At the
federal level, that is what's driving federal spend, which keeps
going up and up. You know, when Bill Clinton left office,
(16:03):
his final budget was about two trillion dollars. We are
now spending over six trillion dollars and it's never going
to come down again, you know, we don't we don't
need to have tripled you know, spending over the past
twenty years, right, and it's gone up under Republicans and Democrats,
et cetera. But when you realize it's old age entitlements,
(16:24):
we need to start holding you know, holding ourselves accountable.
Where when Social Security and Medicare were passed, and Social
Security was passed in nineteen thirty five, nobody retired. Basically
you died at sixty five, which was the age you
could you know, take it, and it has expanded vastly.
Older people are wealthy. Now, we can't have the same
(16:45):
kind of policy that just gives people money regardless of
you know, because of age. Medicare was passed in sixty six,
you know, immediately started outstripping its cost estimates and things
like that. And it's like, you know, if you're wealthy
in America, you should be paying your own way. And
then we should agree that there's a small portion of
(17:06):
people who need temporary help and sometimes long term helping
if they're not capable of taking care of themselves, and
the government can do that, but it should be you know,
ten percent of what we're spending now, rather than sending
out most stuff to middle class and upper middle class
people under the guise of helping poor people. You know,
we need to be more honest and realistic about where
(17:29):
government spending is going. And it's almost never to help
the poor.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
But that's the demographic that boats. You're never going to
be pregnant with this attitude.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
I know, I know, but well, you know what I
this is one of my dreams is to do kind
of like you know, go back to by interest in
literature and art. I almost want to do like an
art project where I find wealthy you know, when you
turn sixty five, you have to enroll in Medicare, otherwise
breaking the.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Law bill game.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I want to find it. I want to find wealthy
seniors who refuse to sign up for Medicare and and
ask the government to put them in jail. Like run
a kind of nonviolent resistance campaign against Medicare from people
who don't need it, people who can afford to pay
for their healthcare and retirement, and let's force this issue.
(18:16):
I wish young people are freaking out over climate change,
and you know, I think there's no question that human
activity affects the climate, you know, affects the environment. We're
going to do fine living with fluctuations and temperature. We're
so good at innovating, you know, we have places like
you know, the Netherlands and whatnot, Like we we know
how to deal with climate change. Right. What young people
(18:37):
really need to get exercised about is the fact that
you know, they are there, we're taking money from them
every paycheck. They are relatively poor, and we're giving it
to relatively wealthy old people. Like that's where generational outrage
should be. And you know, I would love to see like,
you know, you know, content class warfare.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Nike is starting age warfare.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Generational generational generational warfare, and you know, and I'm willing
to be the quizzling of old people. You know, I'll
be medicare age in five years, so like, let's do this.
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So I normally ask, what do you think is our
largest cultural or societal problem?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Is this? It? No, I do what I think it is.
I think it's much bigger than that, and it's ironically
it is a result of how much better the world
is now. The biggest problem facing us is that we
live in a world of massive existential angst. And we
see this as a problem. It's actually the result of
(19:37):
having created an economy, particularly in America, but throughout Europe
and increasingly throughout the world where people no longer you know,
when you are struggling merely to get ahead or to
give your children opportunities you didn't have, your focus is different.
We now live in a world where almost everybody has
the ability to kind of create the world that they
(19:59):
want to live in. That you know, everybody can dream
now in a way that when you know, my parents
were born in the twenties, they were the children of immigrants.
They grew up in immigrant ghettos. My father was born
in Hell's Kitchen, grew up in Manhattan and Brooklyn, very poor,
fought in World War two, never expected, you know, to
have extra money. My mother, who was an Italian, the
(20:22):
daughter of Italian immigrants, was similar. And you know, when
I look at what my kids are living in, like
everything is in front of you and that that is
we are not equipped for that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
We have to.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Be given the shot at like living the life that
you imagine and you dream. And I think that that's
actually why people are going so crazy now about all
sorts of bizarre culture war issues like.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Too many options or what.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
What is we have so many options, and it's like, okay,
here's you know, I you know, Easter h Eastern you know,
just was just and I think a lot. There was
a novel by par Lagervis, who was a Swedish Nobel
Prize winning author in the early fifties, called Barrabas, and
it's what he does is he follows the story of Barabbas,
(21:12):
the thief who's ransomed in place of Jesus, you know,
my punctious pilot. The crowd says, let Barabas, who's a
killer and a rapist and a thief, go free, and
we want you to CHRISTI fight Jesus instead. And this
book follows Barabis, you know, on he suddenly he was
condemned to death and then suddenly he's given a free
life where he can do whatever he wants, and it
(21:34):
follows his journey. Very it's a great book. It's really
wonderful and it speaks you know, it's a Christian existentialist novel,
but it really speaks to our current predicament, if we
want to call it that, where it's like we have
been given, you know, unbelievable freedom and opportunity in the US,
in Europe, in more and more parts of the world
where more than half of the people on the planet now,
(21:57):
according to the UN and to the Brookingstitution, live at
a middle class or higher lifestyle. We can dream and
we can work towards accomplishing our goals. And that is
terrified to a lot of people, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
It's like I could it sounds so optimistic.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Well, it's very optimistic. But you have to take responsibility,
and you have to work, and you have and also
you have to realize, like you know, and I think
about this with myself, what I wanted at thirty or
twenty five is not what I want now. And how
do you continue to grow? How do you continue to
take responsibility for your life and help build the community
you want. That's an awesome task, and I think we
(22:33):
have not, you know, we haven't educated ourselves as a
society to to kind of create people who can flourish
in that. There's a lot of people who are terrified
of freedom in a lot of ways. In the you know,
in the sixties, there were oftentimes on the left, there
were people like Eric from who you know, wrote a
book called Escape from Freedom. But as people became you know,
(22:56):
as things loosened up, and you could do you could
live the life that you dream. A lot of people
are terrified by that, and that's actually what I think
is going on now. People want to control other people
rather than live their lives the way they want to.
There's that to me is the biggest top so interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I really never thought about that concept.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Like, just because things are so good and we have
so much freedom and so much space to do whatever
you want, it causes existential angst because, yeah, we're so
used to being sort of funneled into what we're supposed
to be doing, and when you have all the options,
that does make it more complicated. It's just like choosing
between all the many things.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You can be.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
It's hard. It's hard, you know, And it's like that's
what I think, that's what education should be about. I
think that's in a lot of ways what community, uh,
you know, religion changes all the time and things like that.
But it's like, you know, you know, we need to
adapt to a world in which much more is possible
than that of our parents or grandparents or anything like that,
(23:57):
and that requires you know, letting people have more options
and more autonomy and then you know.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Also making more mistakes.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, We're going to take a quick break and
be right back on the Carol Marcowitz Show.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Do you feel like you've made it?
Speaker 4 (24:16):
No? No, I you know, way to go. Yeah, I
mean I certainly have not achieved what I want to
in life. I'm happy, you know. I I uh inherited
from my parents and people around me a heart, like
a big worth work ethic, you know where I you know,
I get up every morning and I want to accomplish
(24:37):
a bunch of things. I am a big fan of
kind of practice and iteration. You know, writing is certainly
an iterative process. Like you you know, you have to
keep doing it. That's true of journalism in general, and
I think it's true of almost everything. So I'm you know,
I'm happy, relatively speaking. I'm getting married and for the
(25:00):
second time, for the last time, I should say, And
you know, I have two children whom I love. I
had a great relationship and a great marriage with my
first wife. I've achieved a fair degree of professional success,
and I'm happy about that. But I don't take any
of it for granted, and it doesn't slow me down
from like, okay, well what you know, that's all you know,
(25:23):
you don't want to sit on that. You want to
figure out what do you do next and what is interesting,
what's exciting. So I don't really feel like I've made
it whatever.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
That all right, Well, looking forward to seeing where you
go then, because I feel like, you know, that's that's
a good answer. You still have a lot to do.
I love talking to you. This is really great. And
here with your best tip for my listeners on how
they can improve their lives.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Oh, I think you know the you know Stuart Brand,
the guy who founded the Whole Earth catalog. He said
the line stay hung grace, stay foolish, which Steve Jobs
use that a famous college commencement addressed and I think
thinking like that, Stuart Brand is a fascinating character. But
(26:11):
you know, the important thing is to remain open and
honest with yourself, you know, and continue to develop new
interests and new ideas, and to look at the future
not as dangerous or scary, but it's you know, it's different.
It's going to be challenging, but it's like God, the
you know, I the only thing I envy about my
(26:32):
children is the fact that they're going to live longer
and longer. And I want to be in that future
because I am a long term optimist and even kind
of a middle term optimist, and you know, there are
a lot of things to be concerned about in the
world today. But it's like, you know, I know that
I live in a world that was much better than
the one my parents were born in. And I know,
I you know, the world is better than the one
(26:53):
I was born in in nineteen sixty three, and I
would love to see you know what, I don't know
twenty one, twenty four is going to look like there's
something like that. So getting better, keep looking forward and
keep moving.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah. Absolutely, Thank you so much, Nick, This is really great.
Thanks for coming on. Thank you, thanks so much for
joining us on the Carol Marco Witch Show. Subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I have a fourteen year old daughter.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
So it's Taylor Swift Mania in our house. It's been
the background music to our entire lives for a bit,
but right now it's really in overdrive. A line from
a Taylor song that was released last year has been
in my mind. The song is now that we don't talk,
and the line is I called my mom.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
She said to get it off my chest.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
And I always jokingly point out to my daughter like, look,
Taylor calls her mom. You know, when you grow up,
maybe you should call your mom and they talk about stuff,
and maybe we should talk about stuff. So I'm planting
the seeds. But I think about things like this, like
getting things off your chest a lot, because I'm someone
who holds everything in. Every once in a while, I'll
(00:56):
surprise my husband with like a bunch of bad news
that I've been holding inside. I mean, nothing too bad,
maybe in argument with someone or worries I have, but
the kind of bad that burns and turns into something
far worse than it is when you don't let it out.
Last week, I talked about knowing what will make you
(01:17):
feel better and still not doing it. You know, the
whole reading fiction before bed. I know that makes me
feel better than scrolling, and yet I still don't do it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And that's really the hardest part to overcome. When you
don't know what's wrong, that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
It's when you know something is good for you, but
you just don't do it anyway. I mean, it makes
me feel kind of dumb. There's this meme going around
where a girl says she's not feeling well and another
voice asks her a bunch of questions about what it
could be.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Let's play the clip.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
It's feeling only down these days. I don't know. Why
have you exercised today?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Did you go outside?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Did you talk to anyone?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Did you eat well?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Did you limit your scrolling time? No? Do you make
any plans?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
No?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Did you drink enough water? Did you get enough sleep?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Now? Wait?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yes, yes to that one.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
No, it's what a mystery? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I mean I find myself asking those questions of myself
a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It gets very.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Easy to stay in my own head and just do
about things and then wonder why I'm not sleeping at
three am? And all of these things. You know, eating,
going outside. It's just better living through doing really simple things.
What a concept. I don't have the answer on how
to get yourself to do the things that will improve
your life, but the easy ones like going outside or eating,
(02:35):
or talking to someone if something is bothering you should
be where we all start again. I'm far from perfect
on this, but it's something I'm working on and maybe
we can do it together. I love your emails. I've
gotten so many good ones about things that you guys
do to improve your lives. Please keep them coming. It's
(02:56):
Carol marco It Show at gmail dot com and I'll
read some in the next few episodes. Coming up next
an interview with Nick Gillespie. Join us after the break.
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Nick Gillespie, Editor at Large at Reason,
(03:16):
the libertarian magazine of free minds and free markets, and
host of the Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Hi, Nick, Hey, how are you doing. Carol? Nice to
talk with you.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So nice to have you on.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
When I was thinking about how to introduce you and
I was looking up your bio, I was thinking, you know,
Nick Gillespie, the libertarian, you know, the icon of the libertarian.
You're an icon in the libertarian movement for sure. Man
about town in New York, and just I think I
really do think of you when I think of libertarians
(03:49):
in general.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Would explain why we, you know, aren't better known. But
I appreciate the sentiment.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
What would you be doing if you weren't doing this? Like,
what would be a plan be for you?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
So it would have been probably it would most conceivably
one of two different outcomes. One is that when I
graduated from college, I'm sixty. I graduated college in nineteen
eighty eight.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's crazy, by the way, you are, like just.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Really young looking.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I did not inherit any money literally from my parents,
but I inherited something, you know, and so I thank
them for.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
That great hair.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Yeah, and it's all natural, Like none of this is
you know. I love human ingenuity and kind of staving
off aging and increasing what we can do. But I
haven't done any of that, but the two things. So
I graduated college. I was an English and psychology major
at Rutgers University. I was born in Brooklyn, grew up
(04:51):
in New Jersey, went to Rutgers, and I ended up writing.
I became a journalist because I wrote. When I was
in college, I worked on our daily newspaper with which
had a paying gig and everything, so it was very nice.
And I worked for a bunch of teen magazines and
music magazines in the late eighties. And I think, if
I was not doing what I'm doing now, I would
(05:12):
be an entertainment journalist. So I would be staking out
you know, Kardashian hideaways and things like that.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
That sounds great. Why aren't you doing that?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I think about that on an almost hourly basis. But
then you know what happened towards After a few years
of doing that in New York and for you know,
kind of third rate magazines, which were a lot of
fun and whatnot. But I decided to go to grad
school for English, for creative writing and literary studies, and
I was going to be a professor. Wow, and what happened.
(05:43):
So I got a master's in English and creative writing
at a Temple University in Philly. Then I moved to Buffalo.
I met my future wife and ex wife, mother of
my children, where on very good terms, we spend Christmas
and holidays together. But we went to Buffalo to get
PhDs in English, and I was an American, so I
(06:03):
studied American literature. I was going to become an English professor.
And then Reason magazine, which I had been reading since
I was in high school, had a job opening that
they advertised in their pages. This was in nineteen ninety three,
and I applied for it and I got the job,
and then I've been there ever since. So the short
version is I would be running a teen magazine if
(06:26):
they even still exist, or a heavy metal magazine, or
i'd be a college profess.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
What teen magazines did you write for?
Speaker 4 (06:33):
I wrote for. This was a company called Sterling's Magazines.
I believe it's out of business. I wrote for two
magazines there. One was called Teen Machine and the other
that Super Teen. And yeah, so that's what I was
doing in the in the late eighties.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Interesting, I was going to guess, do you remember the
teen magazine Sase?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yes, like it was really.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Key, Yeah I was. I was. I was not Sassy material.
Sassy was like the New Yorker of teen magazine.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I used to wait at the like newstand to get
my Sassy. I didn't understand the whole concept of subscribing
I just know, I knew the day it came out,
and I'd wait by the news dand and I was
so like, I loved it so much, and it was
very you know, looking back, it was definitely left of center,
but it was very be yourself, think whatever you want
(07:30):
to think, don't let anybody tell you what to think.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
And I don't think you could do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
I don't think you could have a sassy magazine for
teenagers that you know, courages them to be themselves and
think whatever they want. Now.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, it's that's interesting, and I'd be curious to think
about Sassy versus something like teen Vogue right where Sassy
was sexually forward, especially for the day. It was talking
about you know, kind of you know, harder issues than
most teen magazines, So you know, how do you win
a dream day with Turk Cameron or something? Right, But yeah,
(08:04):
it's it's fascinating to think about celebrity culture and the
way that that is a venue for kind of talking
about larger issues.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
And you could be making a difference in your backup career.
You could be changing things.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
You know, It's true. I could be at getting in
early right and making the anxious generation as John High
would call it, Yes, super anxious because I'd be like, hey,
you know what, everything the government is telling you is
li lie.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
But are you always a libertarian, like even back then
when you're writing for those teen magazines?
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Yeah, I would say so. I, Like I said, I
started reading Reason in high school. My brother, who's older
than me, was the first person in our family to
go to college, and he discovered Reason when he was
at college, and he brought it home for me, or
started sending me his old issues, and I was just
kind of like, I was much more into literature and
kind of movies and TV, but I was reading and
(08:59):
I was like, oh, this makes a lot of sense.
This makes a lot of sense. I stumbled across Milton
Friedman's Free to Choose Milton Rose Friedman's book, which had
been also made into a PBS series, and I started,
you know, what I liked about libertarianism was the idea
that it was individualistic, you know. And it's not that
(09:19):
being a libertarian doesn't mean you don't build communities, but
it's you know, you recognize you are responsible for yourself,
you know, and you need to do things. Nobody's going
to do things for you. And that really appealed to me.
I was also a teenage existentialist. I came across people
like Albert Camu and John Paul Sart and whatnot, and
(09:42):
and so libertarianism resonated with me. But in a lot
of ways, what resonated the most was that the Reason magazine,
and back then it was talking more about probably more
about economics than cultural issues, but also political issues. But
it was saying, you know what, like the truth is
much more complicated than what you're being told. It was,
(10:02):
you know, and I was like, wow, this is amazing.
It was like a secret history of reality that accorded
with my sense of things. You know that certain people
were always trying to tell you this is good for you.
You know, you have to do this, not like you
should do this, but like you have to. And so
that resonated. And by the time I got to college,
and certainly after college, I would call I called myself libertarian,
(10:27):
but you know, it was not front and center in
a sense. I mean, one of the things that I
think is really negative about the past, you know, forty
or fifty years, is that politics has moved from a
place where it's part of our identity to where it
is almost always or not always, but often the first
part of our identity. We call ourselves conservatives, progressives, libertarians,
(10:50):
you know, liberals, whatever, you know, right out of the bat.
And I think we'd be in a better world if
we were like, you know what, like I'm a human first,
and you know, whatever your political or ideological you know,
kind of commitments are, it's maybe fourth or fifth.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Interesting, Yeah, I definitely. I mean, I admit that my
political affiliation is very much front and center of who
I am. I consider myself libertarian adjacent. I think that
there were periods in my life where I thought I.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Was more libertarian than maybe I do today.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
My fourteen year old daughter is like clearly going to
be a libertarian.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I don't know how to veer her off that path.
And I just kidding, you know what, it's great, it's great,
it's great.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
It's really hard. But the best way to do it,
I think, And I said, you know, I have two
grown children now, but the best way is to let
them be responsible, you know. And obviously there's gradations in this.
You know, a fourteen year old can't make decisions that
a twenty eight year old is going to make, or
a set, you know, but they make more than a
seven year old or something. But let them make decisions
(11:53):
and let them live with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Right. She's just always very like, no matter what anybody says,
she's always like, how's that.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
The government's role?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And I'm like, God, oh yeah, how did I have
one of you? You know?
Speaker 4 (12:06):
What's funny about that is, weirdly, over my time at Reason,
which has now been I've been here, I'm in my
thirty first year at Reason. Reason was founded in nineteen
sixty eight, so I've been around for a long time.
But even over the time I've been at Reason, I'd
say the libertarian movement has moved from being kind of
about limited government, like smaller government, and kind of a
(12:27):
classical liberal view where government is not necessarily a criminal organization,
but it should be small, and it should be targeted
and it should be held to high standards. To a
lot of libertarians now really are anarchists, and they think
any government action at any level is not just likely
to be inefficient or incompetent, but it's actually like immoral
(12:51):
or evil. I don't subscribe to that, but it's kind
of fascinating to see why has that happened, and in
a weird way, I think a lot of Republicans and Democrats,
a lot of liberals and progressives or conservatives to leave
that too. And I wrote a piece a couple of
years ago for Reason talking about how what happens, you know,
when you move from being a high trust society to
(13:13):
a low trust society. In America has been doing that. Oddly,
people call for more government even though they know the
government is going to be bad a right doing, and
what we really need is a government that does fewer
things but does them competently and efficiently.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Right. So, yeah, I mean I have to say that
that's I feel that shift in myself. Like I used
to be very the government should just not do anything.
And I look, if everybody subscribed to that point of view,
I'm in. I'm in for smaller, smaller government. But it
turns out that it's like the left doesn't want smaller government.
So when they get controlled, they grow the government and
(13:50):
they and they have more power.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So but COVID years are really my example of this.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's like in New York, it was like the governor's
going to have control over whether school's open, But in Florida,
the left push to have local control, not the governor control.
So it's always I felt like I was losing no
matter where, no matter what I mean. It definitely made
me more pro individual pro you know. So I don't know,
(14:16):
so maybe I am a libertarian somewhere in there. I
just know. It's like the labels don't matter, but they
kind of matter.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Yeah, And you know, I tend to use libertarian now
as an adjective rather than a noun, because I think
I think libertarian. Being libertarian is a kind of pre
political sensibility. It's kind of a temperament and it's you know,
it's a direction. It's not a set of dogma. And
you can be a libertarian Democrat or a libertarian Republican.
(14:44):
You can be a libertarian libertarian, you know, with capital
l or something. And I you know, for me, I
think government policies tend to work best when they're smaller
in scale, you know, because then the stakes are lower.
But also they can be more targeted and things work
batter when when decisions get devolved down to the individual
or as close to the individual as top that's it, yeah,
(15:06):
not utopia, but you know, so for instance, like I'm
not against a social safety net. But I think rather
than having food stamps, you know, where the government gives
you a plastic card and said you can buy you know,
you can buy whole milk, but not skim milk or
something like that. You know, it should just be for
a small number of people who need help. Give them
cash grants and trust them and give them the autonomy
(15:29):
to make decisions with that.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
You know, and if you you could just see where
the problem is going to happen, right you know, it's
not going to stay small, It's going to grow.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
It's like that, this is where the issues all come up.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Yeah, and this is also part of it, though, is
you know, if we become you know, more cognizant of
the problems. You know, right now, I used to write
a lot about this, but about old age entitlements and
you know, things like Social Security and medicare. At the
federal level, that is what's driving federal spend, which keeps
going up and up. You know, when Bill Clinton left office,
(16:03):
his final budget was about two trillion dollars. We are
now spending over six trillion dollars and it's never going
to come down again, you know, we don't we don't
need to have tripled you know, spending over the past
twenty years, right, and it's gone up under Republicans and Democrats,
et cetera. But when you realize it's old age entitlements,
(16:24):
we need to start holding you know, holding ourselves accountable.
Where when Social Security and Medicare were passed, and Social
Security was passed in nineteen thirty five, nobody retired. Basically
you died at sixty five, which was the age you
could you know, take it, and it has expanded vastly.
Older people are wealthy. Now, we can't have the same
(16:45):
kind of policy that just gives people money regardless of
you know, because of age. Medicare was passed in sixty six,
you know, immediately started outstripping its cost estimates and things
like that. And it's like, you know, if you're wealthy
in America, you should be paying your own way. And
then we should agree that there's a small portion of
(17:06):
people who need temporary help and sometimes long term helping
if they're not capable of taking care of themselves, and
the government can do that, but it should be you know,
ten percent of what we're spending now, rather than sending
out most stuff to middle class and upper middle class
people under the guise of helping poor people. You know,
we need to be more honest and realistic about where
(17:29):
government spending is going. And it's almost never to help
the poor.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
But that's the demographic that boats. You're never going to
be pregnant with this attitude.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
I know, I know, but well, you know what I
this is one of my dreams is to do kind
of like you know, go back to by interest in
literature and art. I almost want to do like an
art project where I find wealthy you know, when you
turn sixty five, you have to enroll in Medicare, otherwise
breaking the.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Law bill game.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I want to find it. I want to find wealthy
seniors who refuse to sign up for Medicare and and
ask the government to put them in jail. Like run
a kind of nonviolent resistance campaign against Medicare from people
who don't need it, people who can afford to pay
for their healthcare and retirement, and let's force this issue.
(18:16):
I wish young people are freaking out over climate change,
and you know, I think there's no question that human
activity affects the climate, you know, affects the environment. We're
going to do fine living with fluctuations and temperature. We're
so good at innovating, you know, we have places like
you know, the Netherlands and whatnot, Like we we know
how to deal with climate change. Right. What young people
(18:37):
really need to get exercised about is the fact that
you know, they are there, we're taking money from them
every paycheck. They are relatively poor, and we're giving it
to relatively wealthy old people. Like that's where generational outrage
should be. And you know, I would love to see like,
you know, you know, content class warfare.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Nike is starting age warfare.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Generational generational generational warfare, and you know, and I'm willing
to be the quizzling of old people. You know, I'll
be medicare age in five years, so like, let's do this.
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So I normally ask, what do you think is our
largest cultural or societal problem?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Is this? It? No, I do what I think it is.
I think it's much bigger than that, and it's ironically
it is a result of how much better the world
is now. The biggest problem facing us is that we
live in a world of massive existential angst. And we
see this as a problem. It's actually the result of
(19:37):
having created an economy, particularly in America, but throughout Europe
and increasingly throughout the world where people no longer you know,
when you are struggling merely to get ahead or to
give your children opportunities you didn't have, your focus is different.
We now live in a world where almost everybody has
the ability to kind of create the world that they
(19:59):
want to live in. That you know, everybody can dream
now in a way that when you know, my parents
were born in the twenties, they were the children of immigrants.
They grew up in immigrant ghettos. My father was born
in Hell's Kitchen, grew up in Manhattan and Brooklyn, very poor,
fought in World War two, never expected, you know, to
have extra money. My mother, who was an Italian, the
(20:22):
daughter of Italian immigrants, was similar. And you know, when
I look at what my kids are living in, like
everything is in front of you and that that is
we are not equipped for that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
We have to.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Be given the shot at like living the life that
you imagine and you dream. And I think that that's
actually why people are going so crazy now about all
sorts of bizarre culture war issues like.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Too many options or what.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
What is we have so many options, and it's like, okay,
here's you know, I you know, Easter h Eastern you know,
just was just and I think a lot. There was
a novel by par Lagervis, who was a Swedish Nobel
Prize winning author in the early fifties, called Barrabas, and
it's what he does is he follows the story of Barabbas,
(21:12):
the thief who's ransomed in place of Jesus, you know,
my punctious pilot. The crowd says, let Barabas, who's a
killer and a rapist and a thief, go free, and
we want you to CHRISTI fight Jesus instead. And this
book follows Barabis, you know, on he suddenly he was
condemned to death and then suddenly he's given a free
life where he can do whatever he wants, and it
(21:34):
follows his journey. Very it's a great book. It's really
wonderful and it speaks you know, it's a Christian existentialist novel,
but it really speaks to our current predicament, if we
want to call it that, where it's like we have
been given, you know, unbelievable freedom and opportunity in the US,
in Europe, in more and more parts of the world
where more than half of the people on the planet now,
(21:57):
according to the UN and to the Brookingstitution, live at
a middle class or higher lifestyle. We can dream and
we can work towards accomplishing our goals. And that is
terrified to a lot of people, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
It's like I could it sounds so optimistic.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Well, it's very optimistic. But you have to take responsibility,
and you have to work, and you have and also
you have to realize, like you know, and I think
about this with myself, what I wanted at thirty or
twenty five is not what I want now. And how
do you continue to grow? How do you continue to
take responsibility for your life and help build the community
you want. That's an awesome task, and I think we
(22:33):
have not, you know, we haven't educated ourselves as a
society to to kind of create people who can flourish
in that. There's a lot of people who are terrified
of freedom in a lot of ways. In the you know,
in the sixties, there were oftentimes on the left, there
were people like Eric from who you know, wrote a
book called Escape from Freedom. But as people became you know,
(22:56):
as things loosened up, and you could do you could
live the life that you dream. A lot of people
are terrified by that, and that's actually what I think
is going on now. People want to control other people
rather than live their lives the way they want to.
There's that to me is the biggest top so interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I really never thought about that concept.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Like, just because things are so good and we have
so much freedom and so much space to do whatever
you want, it causes existential angst because, yeah, we're so
used to being sort of funneled into what we're supposed
to be doing, and when you have all the options,
that does make it more complicated. It's just like choosing
between all the many things.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You can be.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
It's hard. It's hard, you know, And it's like that's
what I think, that's what education should be about. I
think that's in a lot of ways what community, uh,
you know, religion changes all the time and things like that.
But it's like, you know, you know, we need to
adapt to a world in which much more is possible
than that of our parents or grandparents or anything like that,
(23:57):
and that requires you know, letting people have more options
and more autonomy and then you know.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Also making more mistakes.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, We're going to take a quick break and
be right back on the Carol Marcowitz Show.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Do you feel like you've made it?
Speaker 4 (24:16):
No? No, I you know, way to go. Yeah, I
mean I certainly have not achieved what I want to
in life. I'm happy, you know. I I uh inherited
from my parents and people around me a heart, like
a big worth work ethic, you know where I you know,
I get up every morning and I want to accomplish
(24:37):
a bunch of things. I am a big fan of
kind of practice and iteration. You know, writing is certainly
an iterative process. Like you you know, you have to
keep doing it. That's true of journalism in general, and
I think it's true of almost everything. So I'm you know,
I'm happy, relatively speaking. I'm getting married and for the
(25:00):
second time, for the last time, I should say, And
you know, I have two children whom I love. I
had a great relationship and a great marriage with my
first wife. I've achieved a fair degree of professional success,
and I'm happy about that. But I don't take any
of it for granted, and it doesn't slow me down
from like, okay, well what you know, that's all you know,
(25:23):
you don't want to sit on that. You want to
figure out what do you do next and what is interesting,
what's exciting. So I don't really feel like I've made
it whatever.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
That all right, Well, looking forward to seeing where you
go then, because I feel like, you know, that's that's
a good answer. You still have a lot to do.
I love talking to you. This is really great. And
here with your best tip for my listeners on how
they can improve their lives.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Oh, I think you know the you know Stuart Brand,
the guy who founded the Whole Earth catalog. He said
the line stay hung grace, stay foolish, which Steve Jobs
use that a famous college commencement addressed and I think
thinking like that, Stuart Brand is a fascinating character. But
(26:11):
you know, the important thing is to remain open and
honest with yourself, you know, and continue to develop new
interests and new ideas, and to look at the future
not as dangerous or scary, but it's you know, it's different.
It's going to be challenging, but it's like God, the
you know, I the only thing I envy about my
(26:32):
children is the fact that they're going to live longer
and longer. And I want to be in that future
because I am a long term optimist and even kind
of a middle term optimist, and you know, there are
a lot of things to be concerned about in the
world today. But it's like, you know, I know that
I live in a world that was much better than
the one my parents were born in. And I know,
I you know, the world is better than the one
(26:53):
I was born in in nineteen sixty three, and I
would love to see you know what, I don't know
twenty one, twenty four is going to look like there's
something like that. So getting better, keep looking forward and
keep moving.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah. Absolutely, Thank you so much, Nick, This is really great.
Thanks for coming on. Thank you, thanks so much for
joining us on the Carol Marco Witch Show. Subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts.
Host
Karol Markowicz
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