Queen of the Con: Johnathan Walton’s Story

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
The con artist's job is to get you to love
them or love the thing they're creating, because once you're
making decisions on that love, you're not thinking straight. You're
going to get.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Con Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith.
So we had a conversation this week that was so

(00:36):
compelling we decided to release it without as much editing
as we normally do. It's with Jonathan Walton, who talks
about con artists in a way that you might not
have heard before. I certainly hadn't. His perspective is personal.
He was conned by someone he considered to be a
best friend, practically family. You may know Jonathan's story from
his podcast Queen of the Con. In his interview with us,

(00:58):
he shares both his own experience and the stories of
other con artists that he's now investigated for context. In
twenty thirteen, Jonathan met a woman in his apartment complex
who introduced herself as Mayor Smith. Their building had just
lost access to its beloved pool, and when Jonathan organized
his neighbors to fight the decision, Mayor claimed she could
help after all, she was dating a powerful la mayor.

(01:22):
She soon became inseparable from both Jonathan and his husband.
She weaved herself into their lives for four years before
ever asking for money, and by the time she revealed
her true nature, her lives were so elaborate and their
bond was so strong that it was really hard for
Jonathan to see the truth at first, But once he did,
he fought back. His case has made international headlines and

(01:45):
ultimately inspired his book, which we talk about in this episode,
Anatomy of a con Artist. One note toward the end
of this interview is Jonathan quotes someone using a derogatory
term for gay people. We chose to leave it in
because it was integral to his story, but we wanted
to flag that for listeners. Let's get into the interview. Jonathan,

(02:08):
Welcome to the Knife Podcast. We're so happy to have you.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Thank you so much for inviting me on. I'm excited
to talk to you both.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, we're so happy about it. So we've been lucky
to get copies of your book, Anatomy of a con Artist,
and we can't say enough good things about it. We're
going to talk about this book. You wrote it a
lot of it is how you were personally conned and
sort of the wealth of knowledge that you've accumulated since

(02:36):
that time. You also weave in stories of other con artists,
and I really love the way you structure the book.
You begin by outlining fourteen red flags that are common
with con artists, and then you use those, you weave
them throughout the book, and you give readers like concrete
examples of how those red flags play out. And we're
going to talk more about those red flags because I

(02:57):
love that you do that. It's so clear and concise.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
The backbone of the book is your personal story about
being conned, and we want to talk about that as well.
But before we get into any of this, we just
have to say Patie and I are aligned on this,
Like your perspective on con artists and victims is so
refreshing to us because it's so in line with what
we've been always been saying on our podcast as well,

(03:23):
that anyone can be conned, and what we've encountered over
the years speaking with victims of scams is that there
is this shame factor where they feel really bad about
the fact that this has happened to them and you
talk about that in the book, so I'm hoping that
we can just start off with you sort of addressing
that and talking about your perspective on that.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, thank you. It pleases me to no end that
you guys get what I'm trying to put in the
book and you understand what I'm about. Yeah, the structure
was tricky. It was a lot of back and forth
with my editor, you know, because we're trying to make
it as compelling and as intro as possible and also
make it like a handbook for people. And you're right,
a lot of people think they can never get conn.

(04:06):
I used to think that too, you know, and that'll
set you up to get con because what people don't
realize is my con artist, the Irish Heiress aka Mayor
Smith aka she had twenty other aliases. She was not
an anomaly. There are thousands, if not millions of hers
in male form and female form running around and the

(04:27):
majority of victims, I would say upwards of ninety percent
they never report what happened because of the shame, but
also because of a red flag I write about in
the book. It is red flag number thirteen TMI too
much information because you meet this new person in your life,
new boyfriend, new girlfriend, a new coworker, a new neighbor

(04:47):
in my case, and they get close to you real quick.
Con Artists don't outsmart you. Con Artists outfeel you. They
figure out what your buttons are and they use your emotions.
So a con artist starts revealing their deep dark secrets,
and that does two things. Number one, it makes you think, wow,
this person must really trust me. This person must think

(05:09):
so highly of me to take me in their confidence
and reveal all their secrets. And number two, you think
I can reveal my secrets because you know I we're
human beings. Someone waves, You're gonna wave. Someone says, hi,
how are you? You're gonna say it good? How are you?
We have cues, we automatically respond to. Someone starts over
sharing TMI. You start doing the same thing. But here's
the trick. Con artists are making up their deep dark secrets.

(05:32):
They're not real, they're just fantastical stories. But your deep
dark secrets are real. That is a very powerful way
to keep victims quiet. You know. Con artists learn about
their deep dark secrets. Do this trick in my case,
and I want to punch myself in the face when
I say this out loud. I was helping an Irish
heiress get her inheritance. You know, she sucked me in.

(05:55):
And the way she did it looking back was, you know, evil,
maniacal and brill She was a new neighbor, moved into
my building. We had a huge problem in our building
with our swimming pool. It got taken away because of
a legal fight with another building. And it was a
really nice pool. It's like twenty swimming pools in one.
It's like part of the amenities the reason we moved
into this building. And she immediately enters my life offering

(06:18):
to help. That is red flag number one. Most con
artists get into the victims' lives offering to help. Who
doesn't like a helper exactly, because when someone's helping you,
you immediately like or love them, you know, and then
they wave a lot of red flag number two, which
my con artist did too kind, too quick. She's whining
and dining my husband and me at fancy restaurants. She's

(06:40):
taken us on vacations to Palm Springs. She seems like
she has all this money. You know.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, I want to slow down a little bit because
you're getting into the details that I think are so
helpful on One of the things I loved about your
book and also the podcast is that you take us
through those steps. Because when you just started and you said,
you know, I was trying to help an Irish heiress
get her into Maiton's back. If that's all you know,
I think most people will be like, eye roll, what
are we talking about here?

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Right, But the thing is is you really walk us
through how you got to this point four years later
where it was like so believable, and I think that
that's so important to understand. And so you mentioned like, okay,
she came into your life to help with the swimming
pool issue, which was a legal issue. Suddenly you're building
no one could use this beautiful, amazing swimming pool which

(07:28):
everyone loved using. And she comes sweeps in and says,
I'd love to help talk to us a little bit
about like what that feeling is of that meeting whenever
you have that neighborhood meeting in your apartment and you
watch her, you're watching her like work the room. Tell
us a little bit about that moment and how that
felt to you.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
I mean, I have a you know, conflicting perspectives now,
because I remember what I thought when it was happening,
and now, looking back, I know what the truth was.
While it's happening, she appears to be this guardian angel,
this savior. She's dating a married politician. He was the
mayor of an affluent city here in Los Angeles. He
sued our building before. She says, you know, she says,

(08:12):
but none of that was true, but we don't know that.
So she kind of captures the room and they're thirty
or forty residents gathered in my living room. And again
this hurts me to admit, you know, I took it
upon myself when we lost the pool. I posted flyers
everywhere I went and distributed them to four hundred and
forty four units in our apartment building. I took it

(08:33):
upon myself. That's who I am. That's who I've always been,
you know. And now I can only imagine when she
saw that flyer in our lobby, she must have been
licking her chops, thinking to herself, Ah, this guy's a
do gooder. I'm going to get him to do good
for me. Because that's exactly what she went about doing.

(08:55):
I didn't realize, and none of us do as victims
or all of us are partial victims. I guarantee you
we are all potential victims. These people are everywhere. No
one's talking about them, but you know, no one is me,
and I'll tell you why. But looking back, that's all
the information she needed about me to know how to
get into my life. And she did so. That evening,

(09:17):
we have this meeting in the living room, that in
my living room that I organized. You know, my husband
and I but I organized. I give him credit, but no,
he was just saying, okay, let's do it. And at
the end of the meeting, she says, I want to
take you and your husband out for dinner to thank
you for organizing all this. It's amazing. And she took
us to this expensive restaurant that it was like six
seven hundred dollars and I tried to pay our share

(09:37):
and she wouldn't let me. No, no, no, And she
starts unpacking her story. She's very wealthy. She moved here
from Ireland. She had a weird accent, so everything gelled.
When we had dinner at her place one night, she
showed us this framed Irish Constitution on her wall. She
had props and she said that one of the signatories
something something Clark was one of her great great grands father,

(10:00):
the founder of Ireland. You know. She started confiding, like,
you know, I'm Irish Royalty. Whatever you do, don't tell
the Irish embassy I'm here. They would be so upset
that no one alerted them to my presence. Please. So
we're like, oh no, no, we're not going to tell anyone.
You know, she asks us to do something. You know.
So none of that was true, but it made me

(10:22):
feel and again I want to punch myself in the face.
It made me feel special that this woman, this wealthy
Irish heiress royalty from Ireland, is trusting me and inviting
me to her home and I'm a part of Irish history.
Now it's like stupid, stupid, stupid, But that's how I
felt at the time.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
And that's such a universal desire, is like this human
connection and to be made to feel like important or
seen or trusted, trusted, and for her to have taken
you guys to this like lavish dinner that costs six
seven hundred dollars, Like that is wealth to be able
to spend that much much money on a dinner. I

(11:01):
mean that I've never like that, you know. I think that,
even though in hindsight it's like, oh, how foolish, because
of all of these flags that I'm now aware of.
It's like, if someone spent that kind of money on
me at dinner and I offered to pay my share
and they refused, I would have every reason to believe
what they were telling me. They're wealthy.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, she had all the tricks. Little did I
know the money she used for that dinner and many
dinners was from credit cards she had stolen in other
people's names. She'd taken out credit and she was scamming
a bunch of other people. So all the money that
she was spending on me, on these vacations and dinners
and lavish gifts and stuff, looking back now, I realized

(11:46):
it's an investment for her, and it worked. I paid
off big. While she's whining and dining my husband than me,
she has twenty other scams going at the same time.
This is who she is and these people are everywhere.
So it's good I point out the red flags, because

(12:08):
God knows, she waived every single one of them, and
I had no idea these are a thing. These people
are everywhere but no one's talking about it because you know,
it had to take It took me. It took me
to expose her and stop untold numbers of people from
falling forth and even initially, and this is what angers me.
So I'm going to try not to shout when it

(12:28):
all came crashing down for her and I confronted her
and she denied it, and I recorded the confrontation, thinking
police are going to want this, not knowing they couldn't
give a flying f. She got a lot of people
to believe her. She was telling people, and a lot
of people believed it that I'm this crazy guy in
love in love with her, happily married gay man in

(12:49):
love with her, and I'm just spurned. But she didn't
feel the same way. And now I'm angry and trying
to take my revenge. And a lot of people wouldn't
talk to me, they would hang up lock me. It
took some convincing, but that's how good she is.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Well, it's like for them to believe you and not
her would mean them having to accept that they too
had been duped. Yes, and many of them probably also
been conned out of money or whatever else, And that
is such a difficult part of like the web that
these con artists weave.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, it's human nature. They use our human nature against us.
And I'm glad you brought that point up, because I
do forget to bring it up when I'm talking about
the book. But it's in the book. I've investigated by
now in the past eight years, literally hundreds of different
con artist cases, and I've talked to hundreds of different victims,
and there's a subset of victims like you just described.

(13:42):
They cannot come to terms with what happened. So even
though they're calling for my help and advice, they tell
me things like, well, I knew something was off, but
and I'm like, lady, no, you didn't. You gave her
twenty thousand dollars if you thought something was off, are
you giving her money? Like because of what you just said,

(14:03):
they cannot admit to themselves that they fell for it,
so that when they tell the story to themselves and
to others, well, they knew, Oh I knew something was No,
you didn't. I've got condat a close to one hundred
grand I didn't think anything was off. I fell for it, hard, firm,
like I believed it. Otherwise, why would I part with
my money, you know. But so many people are not

(14:26):
in a place psychologically where they can accept that, so
they create this story that well I knew, I want
to align you. It's so weird human nature delusion.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
It's like too heartbreaking to accept that reality, probably for
some people.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I completely get that because I was in the
closet for thirty years. The first thirty years of my life,
I couldn't accept I was gay, and people are like, well,
you always knew, I'm like, no, I was dating women.
I had this Disney idea of love, like if I
met the right woman, all of this would change. Like
I believe that, even though that's a but it protected
me because by the time I did accept I was gay,

(15:03):
I nearly took my life. I didn't want to live.
I came so close. Oh my gosh, Guardian Angel came
out of nowhere to saved my life. But I'd planned
my suit, I'd planned to leave. I couldn't deal with it. Yeah,
and that's why that delusion was created that I just
need to keep dating women and meet the right woman,
meet the right woman. Well, no one's the right woman
because I'm a home all. Yeah, but I couldn't face

(15:23):
that until I was thirty, so I don't understand delusion
better than most.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Wow, that story hits real home for me. Just sidebar,
because my ex husband is gay and similar thing, and
I think whenever I won't go too deep into this,
but like whenever he came out and we got divorced,
we're still very good friends. By the way, Oh good
people would sort of be like, well, you had to
have known, or he had to have known, or some
people thought, well, he knew and he was doing something

(15:49):
to you, like you know, and I was like, that's
just absolutely not the case. Believe me, I lived through this.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
It's not the case. He loved you. I know he
loved you, and I was in love with a woman who,
thank God would not have me because I would have
wrecked her life because I'm gay. But I guarantee you
he loved you, and he was trying to make it
work and try to not be what he eventually accepted
he was. But it's hard.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, it's interesting that you make that parallel because it
does show how deep those stories that we tell each
other ourselves ye can go into our psyche and really
affect what we actually consciously believe. One of the things
that that was interesting is you talk about Akham's razor
in the book and sort of trying to think about, like,
what is the most simple explanation for what could have

(16:31):
happened here, right, And you think about that when you're
trying to piece together what really had happened and what
were the lies and what were the truths. But what's
interesting about that is that, like thinking about you being
at her house and seeing this like framed antique Irish document,
the mind is not going to go to, well, it's

(16:53):
more plausible that she, this woman who's my neighbor and
seems like normal and charming and wonderful, has been like
secretly like ating this document and put it on her wall.
It's like, no, Like, the most logical explanation is that
this is real and this is from her family exactly. Yeah,
And so it's like believable. Yeah, and like just a
piggyback off of what Hannah saying is when I was

(17:14):
listening to that story for the first time, I was like, yeah,
I could see how someone could fall for that, because
if I went home and say, told my husband, our
neighbor is this Irish heiress who's having trouble getting her inheritance.
He's a lawyer, he'd probably be like, what. But I
would think if she was trying to con me, she'd
come up with something more believable, Yes, more just like

(17:37):
common that you hear about. But instead it's this like
over the top situation that who would come up with
that if they were trying to convince their neighbor in
LA to give them money.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, and that's the paradox of life. On the bigger
the lie, the more believable, and you would think the
opposite would be true. We're suspecially the little lies. Because
someone tells you, oh, I'm from Ireland, You're not going
to doubt that, you just well, now I doubt everything
all the time. But at the time I would okay, like,
who's gonna lie about where they're from? You know, when

(18:10):
I met her, she says she has a loopus. Okay,
she's in surgical stockings. Come to find out she had
just gotten LiPo from a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon who
she tried to scam as well, but he doesn't want
to go on her record. But she knew that telling
me she had lupus A I would believe it, and
B that would evoke a lot of sympathy for me.
And it did, and it did, and she was limping,

(18:31):
but it was LiPo, not Lupas you know, we just
believe when we meet new people, we don't suspect their
con artists, but if they're waving the flags as she was,
Because I have this fantasy now years later that if
I met her today, knowing what I know now about
con artists and having written this book, would I be
able to discern she's a con artist? And the answer

(18:54):
is absolutely. Within the first twenty minutes of talking to
this woman, she was waving nearly every red flag I
ride about. They were all there, but if you don't
know what they look like, you're not going to notice.
It's like if you're standing in Times Square and there
are thousands of people walking by you. You just see

(19:15):
like a sea of people. You don't really notice anything.
But if I tell you, hey, look for the guy
with a bowler hat and glasses, immediately you spot that guy.
One hundred fet there he is. That's the bowler hat.
That's a different kind of hat, I was told. So
the red flags are the same way. Once I point
them out, you can spot them immediately. She was waving
all of it. The way she really got her hooks

(19:37):
into me looking back. And this was the condos for me.
Is at the time I had come out at thirty
and by the time I met her, I hadn't been
home for Christmas in like nearly eight years, because part
of my family disowned me. Part of my family said,
keep that away from us. We never want to see
you again, you know. And as much as I thought

(19:59):
that didn't bother me, I mean, of course it bothered me.
God up such a we're all in various stages of
denial of various times, and then we look back at
wait a minute, that was denial. Of course it bothered
me like I was hadn't been home for Christmas. So
as soon as she finds out that detail of my life,
she matches it. She says, well, my family disowned me too,
because they're trying to get me disinherited. And she would

(20:23):
go on to waive a lot of red flag number
six technology. She would sell me the story of her
family through digital screens, you know, through her cell phone,
through her iPad, through her laptop. I would see texts
from her cousins, Finton and the names Finton, Tristan deer
Mitt and her uncle Patrich Clark, who dies and when

(20:43):
he dies, you know, she is devastated. I find her
bent over, crying and I hold her and her tears
wet my shirt and I'm rocking her, telling her it's okay,
It's going to be okay. But none of that was real.
Like her uncle was invented, her family was invented. She
was not from Ireland, and yet she's such a brilliant actress.

(21:04):
She's crying, and even though I'm a gay guy, I
still a woman. Crying has such power over me, like
I will do anything to help her, you know. So
at that point, we weren't just two friends in La.
We were like two discarded souls with our families on
the other side of the world who didn't want us.
She became like my sister. You know. We would end

(21:26):
phone calls I love you, I love you, like she
was family. That's how she got in, you know, That's
when I started to really care about her, And that's
when I was so incensed. God, the family is trying
to destroy her. It's wrong, and I'm gonna do good
or I'm gonna help her. I'm so angry when I
think about it, because she knew all that, Like she
knew exactly how to manipulate me with the tears and

(21:49):
the you know, the family discarded her and yeah, and
it worked, it worked great, It worked great until it didn't.
So the short version is I start helping her. Her
family makes up these you know, they pay off a
dirty distant attorney. And this is around the time one
of the former das was like charged with a crime,
so like it was newsy, you know, like, oh, like

(22:10):
another one. Okay, so I read about this one who's
going to jail, and now your family paid off another
DA to invent a case on her so they could
get her disinherited because there's a clause and then will
in her uncle's will that if any heir is convicted
of a felony, day four to fifty inheritance. So it
made sense to me, and she was standing to inherit
close to ten million US dollars the equivalent. The part
of the estate was a twenty five million euro estate,

(22:32):
and at the time she was going to get like
five or seven million, which in American dollars at the
time was like close to ten million. So I was
a news reporter for ten years. I would see stories
all the time about husbands who killed their wives from
a million dollars insurance policies. And here we're talking about
close to ten million dollars, Like, what wouldn't someone do
to get that money. Of course they're going to try
to make up charges and get her arrested and get

(22:53):
her whatever. So red flog number three drama, drama, drama.
The minute all this drama started happening, I rallied to
her side to help her, and the family paid off
for a DA to freeze her bank account. I started
loading her money to live on, you know. And I
didn't think anything of it. I was so confident she'd
pay me back because another red flag I write about

(23:15):
in the book Red Flag number eight be wedding. And
I see this again and again. A lot of romance scams,
a lot of investment scams. The con artists will give
you a little money up front, you know, if it's
an investment scam, they'll give you a little return on
the investment. In this case, with my con artist, she
gets arrested. I bail her out of jail, cost almost

(23:35):
five thousand dollars cash and she pays me back the
next day. So immediately I felt confident loading her more
money down the line. And while you know she's bleeding
me dry, I have no doubt she's going to pay
me back. I have no doubt this inheritance is coming.
I have no doubt everything's going to be fine. I'm
helping this woman. I feel justified, and I keep doubling down.

(23:58):
Never four seconds I think I was getting scammed until
the second I realized I was. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
And also, like you said, you were like family at
this point where you felt like family, And I think
that puts things in perspective because I think a lot
of people would do anything for their like there's someone
at least someone in their life where they think, like
I would literally do anything for them, you know, because
the trust is so deep and the bond is so deep,
and she was such a craftswoman at being able to

(24:33):
create that with you, And so what did it take
for you to start questioning it? Because it just seems
like the bond was so strong and she had really
like I mean, she was crying like that is just
so sick. I know, what did it take for you
to finally be like, wait a minute, this might not
be what she says.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
So her last ask for money came when she hired
a good lawyer in LA and he was working this
case that her family made up against her. And I'm
believing everything because she's showing me emails and texts, never
for a second that I think she invented created Google

(25:13):
accounts to email and text herself to show me, Like,
who does that? Yeah, professional con artists do that too,
So yeah, that's the red flag of technology. If someone
is using technology digital screens to back up what they're saying,
be suspicious. That's weird. Regular people don't do that. So
I believed. You know that she needed the last fifty

(25:34):
thousand dollars to make this case go away, and court
costs and lawyer's fees and lawyers are expensive. Like that
didn't strike me as odd, So I let her charge
my credit cards fifty thousand dollars. Wasn't worrying at all
because now she's going to get the inheritance. It's coming,
she wins. We had a champagne dinner to celebrate, like
good times ahead. And then I go to pick her

(25:54):
up for brunch one day and she's crying real tears,
so I knew it was real. She tells me the
judge is angry at her because he considers her charging
my credit cards to pay her lawyer and court thing
money laundering. I'm like, money laundering? Is that? What money
is it? At that point, I haven't been to court
in like twenty something years, and when I was there

(26:17):
it was to fight a traffic ticket. Like, I don't
know anything about the criminal court system. I'm a TV producer.
I don't know. I'm not involved in that world, so
I don't know. So I accepted what she said, and
she said the judge's going to punish her with thirty
days in jail to teach her a lesson. It's not
a felony to stop on the risk to teach her
lesson thirty days in jail, you know. I'm like, wow, okay,
well you'll be out in thirty days and you'll get

(26:39):
your inheritance. Yes, everything's great. Yes, So she goes to jail.
She calls me collect from jail every day. Two weeks in.
I'm like, I'm gonna come see you. She's like, no, no, no,
I don't even see me like this. I'm so embarrassed. Well,
she's like my sister. Of course I'm going to go
see her. So I don't know if you've ever visited
anyone in jail, but in La County, you have to

(26:59):
log onto the website. You have to create like a
Facebook profile. You have to upload your driver's license and
create a name and a picture. And then after you
do all of that and they approve, you have to
click on the inmate you want to visit. And when
I clicked on her name, that's when what she was
in jail for came up in black and white. It
said felony, grand theft.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Not money wondering exactly, and.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
It was a felony. And she assured me it wasn't
a felony because if it's a felony, she doesn't get
her inheritance. So I would still stupidly believe there's inheritance.
At this point, I'm like, oh, no, she's not gonna
get inheritance. But I'm like, grand theft, that's not what
she told me. What you know, I get like a
heat washes over me. At the time, I was producing
a show called Booze Traveler for the Travel Channel, and
when I find all this out, on my computer screen

(27:46):
and that's all it says, felony, grand theft. I don't
know what is it. So I printed out and I
tell my boss. I'm like, I got to go. I
have an emergency. He's like, go. So I go to
the courthouse and I go to the clerk and I
hand them the paper. I need all the case files
on this and they're like all of them. I'm like yeah,
And it costs like one hundred dollars because they got

(28:07):
to make copies of everything. And it took a while,
but I got it. And I sat there in the
corner of the courtroom, hands trembling, just reading everything.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Just unraveling everything.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah. Well everything about this case, right, everything I was
reading was brand new to me.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
So in going over all those court records, I realized
she lied about everything. Like she pled guilty to stealing
two hundred thousand dollars from the travel agency she worked for,
and she scammed the money from me to pay restitution
in that case, to convince the judge that she's good
for it and she's going to pay the rest back.

(28:43):
So that fifty grand she got from me was to
pay restitution. And that's why she only got a thirty
day sentence. She was looking at five years otherwise.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
But at the time that you're going through all of
these court records, she's still in jail.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
She's in jail, right, So you're.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Like, okay, now I'm understanding that things are not adding
up right.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
And by this point I went home and just collapsed
in my husband's arms, crying. I didn't know she was
a professional con artist on the running from authorities in
the UK, but I did know she lied to me
to get this money. Now we're screwed. How could I
let this happen? But at the same time, I have
this naive belief that I'm going to start gathering evidence

(29:23):
police are going to do something. I was the baker
and into the woods in college. I can act, so
I'm going to act like everything's fine. So when she
would call me collect she's still in jail. Oh, yeah,
everything's fine. I'm coming to pick you up. So she
gets out to her word. You know, in thirty days.
Two weeks later, she's out and I pick her up.
But I'm recording the whole thing because I think, ooh,

(29:43):
I'm going to get a confession. But you know, when
I confront her she denies it, and she starts tearing up.
But that's not true, Jonathan. I'm like, you've been lying
to us the whole time. That's not true. Like that
court thing you were paying rest that you that's the true, Jonathan.
That's look, I have the records here. She looked away.
I'm like, I'm going to go to police. She's like,

(30:03):
you do what you need to do. But that's not true,
that's you know. And I'm like, well, why are you
going to pass back? I'll pay you back, but you know,
it's like and then I realized I'm never going to
get paid back. You know. In the confrontation, I thought
if I threatened to go to the police, she'll pay
me back. She said she would. But then at that
point I'm like, no, you're not. This is a scam.
Like I didn't know there were so many other victims

(30:24):
out there. I just knew this, you know, based on
your past actions. You were just scamming me the whole time.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
What did it feel like to be sitting in the
car with her, this person who the last time you
physically saw her, she was your friend, someone you trusted
enough to loan all of this money too. And then
to be sitting next to her and seeing someone totally different.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
I was in a space where I immediately understood murder.
I understood it. I wanted to kill her. I wanted
to bash her head in a wall. So here's the
thing about me. I'm a vegetarian, the let live. I
take the spider and release them outside. I get a
cup and a piece of paper, like, I don't kill anything.

(31:06):
But in the months after realizing what happened, I would
have these detailed murder fantasies of me strangling her to
death and watching the life drift out of her eyes
and enjoying it. Of me throwing her off the top
of our building. These are daydreams I'm having and they're
bringing me joy. And when I told my best friend

(31:29):
Evan about this, the look on his face was like
what the He's like, dude, you need help, Like you
need to talk to someone, and I'm like, I am
talking to someone you like. So but I started looking
into getting help because this is not the person I knew.
And the frightening thing was I enjoyed it. It brought
me relief, you know. So I was going to see

(31:50):
a shrink and I start researching and I come to
find out this is a normal reaction for victims to
fantasize about hurting their perpetrate. It happens to most victims
of every kind of crime, attempted, murder, rape, whatever. There's
a period victims go through. Mine lasted three or four
months where you have routine fantasies of hurting them or

(32:13):
killing them, and they eventually went away. I'm not a murderer,
but in that moment when I picked her up, I
was enraged, enraged. I'm still I'm a human. I'm not
going to do anything that I'm going to go to
jail for, so I held back. But it's weird we
so often judge people, well, how could you do that?
How could you? You know, when you're in a position

(32:33):
when you get royally fed over and the emotions takeover.
I get it. I get how I could have killed
her and I would have felt justified in the moment.
I would have felt justified. You deserve this, what you
did to me. But no murder is wrong. Someone scams,
you don't kill them because you want to believe me.
I know, I know the feeling.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
I mean, I appreciate the honesty though, because that's like
as you said, what a lot of people go through.
And that's like sounds like a very intense thing to
feel an experience. And I mean that tape that you
have of her, you know, dodging, it's not true, it's
not true. No, no, no, it feels so in line with
con artists. It feels I mean, I've spoken with a

(33:12):
few people jailhouse calls of people who have scammed people,
and that feels very similar. Not admitting anything, always trying
to say no, I'm the victim. No, it's you're misunderstanding.
I don't know if it would have mattered, because she's
already done the horrible thing to you. But I imagine
that maybe in your you were hoping for a different reaction,
Like if she had just been like, oh my gosh,

(33:34):
you're so right, so I did do this. I did it,
and actually just admitted to what she did. Would that
have changed anything for you?

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I mean, you're very perceptive. Yeah, you hit it on
the head. Absolutely, That's what I wanted. I wanted an apology.
It frightens me to say this out loud. Had she
have apologized and tried to make good or whatever, I
would not have gone to police. I wouldn't have. I
would have foolishly thought, she'll pay us back and we'll
try to work on it whatever, And that would have

(34:03):
really deluded my criminal case because the time it takes
for you to go to police after something happens, if
it's a long the longer that time is they hold
it against you. Well, why did you report this? It happened,
you know, and there's a statute of limitations. So thank
god in the moment, Yeah, I was expecting an apology.
I would have loved an apology, an admission of what
she did, you know, anyone who's wronged does. But thank

(34:27):
god she didn't, because yeah, that gave me the embetist
to go to police. Who I go to police and
after I explain everything, they tell me, well, there's nothing
we can do. It's not a crime. And I'm like, squat, now,
well it's not a crime. You gave her the money,
And I'm like, really, so it's not a crime. No,

(34:49):
it's not a crime. You know, good luck in civil
court you can hire a lawyer and sue her, but
there's nothing criminal here. Good luck. And as I'm walking away,
I'm just staggering, like in a post war haze, like,
and I put my hands on the glass door of
the LAPD Downtown office. As I'm pushing it open, I
call it my guardian Angel. Something welled up and shouted

(35:11):
in my brain. No, no, no, no, this cannot be true.
No no. And I turn back around and I go
back to that cop at the desk, and I'm like,
this makes no sense. It's not a crime because I
gave her the money. What about Bernie Madoff? They gave
him the money, but he's convicted, he's in jail at
the time he was in jail, he sits dide, what
about the scams? Were they pretend to be from the

(35:33):
irs and scam the elderly out of thousands? That's a crime, right, yes?
So what about when a guy with a gun holds
up for seven to eleven the cashier gives them the money.
How is giving the money means it's not a crime.
That makes no sense. No no, And I start dumping out
all the evidence I have at a satchel, and I'm like,
phone records, emails, text messages, bank records, credit cards, like
these are lies, she told me, you know. And immediately

(35:57):
in that moment, the officer seems pressed and he pauses
and looks at me, and he's like, what do you
do for a living? And I snap back, I'm a
TV producer. He's like, any shows I would have heard of?
Oh God, So I pulled out the big one. I'm like, yeah,
I did Shark Tank season four, and immediately his eyes

(36:19):
light up. He's like Shark Tank and he's like, I've
been trying to pitch something to the Sharks for years.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
This is like the most Los Angeles twist of all time.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes. Yes, And in that moment, even though I'm violating
all the paperwork I signed to work on Shark Tank,
in that moment, I'm like, I can help you, help me,
I'll help you. He's like, Okay, here's what you got
to do. He's like, I'll take a police report, but
you got to call about your case every single day.
And I'm like, what do you mean. He's like, you know,

(36:50):
because I was of the mind you follow police report.
It's in their hands. They're gonna handle it. No, that's
not how it works, he said. After you leave, by
the end of the day, eight five hundred other police
reports will be on top of yours in this pile.
Every time you call about your case, it gets taken
from the bottom and placed on the top, and there's
some discussion about you and your case with other officers, like, oh,

(37:12):
Jonathan Wallon's calling again. So that was the best advice
I could have ever received from anyone. He never called
me to help get him on Shark ten.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
I wonder what his idea was.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
I don't know, but I would have helped them. Yeah, listen,
I'm a man of my word. I would have absolutely
helped them, because you know, you scratch my back out,
scratch yours. And I called about my case every day,
and by the third week it got assigned to a detective.
And then I get a call from the detective and
I make an appointment to come down and interview with him,
and then he calls me. He's like, I can't do
the interview because I got reassigned. Now your case is

(37:48):
being assigned to an officer who's trying to make detective
like I inferred, it's the dunce of the police station.
I'm like great, So then I go and talk to
the officer use me for hours. I didn't know he's
recording it, but he did. And then he calls me
days later. It's like I watched your video of the
interview with my sergeant and we believe you.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
You like, there was a video.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah. So at that point, I'm like, you know what,
I can't. You guys are useless. Like I started my
own investigation. I started a blog telling my story, warning people.
I didn't know other victims are out there, but I
knew she's probably, you know, trying to shake down other people.
So I just said, whatever she tells you, don't give
her money. You know, this is what she looks like,
this is her name, blah blah. And I start getting

(38:34):
contacted by tons of other people she scammed, and some
with different names. So every time I find a new
name she used, she's like Maryann Clark, Marianne Welch, Like
I would put it on the blog so it's findable
in a search, you know, a keyword. So I start
hearing from all these victims. Every time I hear from
a victim, I call the office. I'm like, here's another victim,
here's ano victim, here's another victim, here's another victim. At

(38:56):
one point and god, you know, I feel bad bashing
the LAPD. But then I don't feel bad because I
live through this. At one point, the sergeant calls me, hey,
stop giving out our number. These aren't helping, and I'm like,
what do you mean, Like there are other victims of
the woman who scamed me, they have nothing to do
with your case. Like, tell them to go follow their

(39:16):
own police report. So cut to we're a month away
from the trial and the DA that's handling the trial
asked me, are there any other victims? And I'm like, yeah, tons.
He's like, well, why didn't the police investigate them? I'm like,
I know. The sergeant said, they have nothing to do
with my case.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Now that's infuriating, and.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
The DA took his glasses off and it's like, they
have everything to do with your case. I'm like, I know,
that's what I said. It's like, but I was just
a victim of the system. A guy with the badge
is telling you this is how it works. You just
accept it. But now I know better, and it's in
the book what you got to do. So when police
turn you away, which nine out of ten victims who
call me for help, it's because police have turned them away.

(39:55):
You can't just go show up, boohoo, cry you got scanned.
You have to think of as a college speech class
presentation you're going to make. You've got to have props.
You got to have evidence. You've got to have witness statement,
you've got to write up affidavit. You got to have
you know, And I say this in the book, Pitching
a criminal case to police is like pitching a television
show to a network executive. You got to make it

(40:16):
sexy and fun and intriguing, and you've got to be
the protagonist. And you've got to have a beginning, middle,
and end. You got to rehearse it before you go.
You got to put on a show for the cop.
And then he'll take a report. And I see this
again and again in the cases I've worked on. They
turn the victim away. I help the victim create a
good case. They go back and they take a report.

(40:37):
But nobody's telling victims this. I am, but this is
not well known. You think you go and tell what happened,
they'll take a report. No, if it's a scam, nine
out of ten times they tell you go to civil court.
And that's not because they don't care. They do care,
they're just overwhelmed. They got murders and rapes, and especially
in a big city like La they're overwhelmed. So if
they can send you to another place that helps them

(41:00):
in their job, that's one less thing they have to
do there.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
You know, I love that you focus so much on
that in this book and that you like really go
through a plan of how you could put something like
this together, how you could take it. I mean the
amount of people that even Patient I have had email
us saying I was scammed? What do I do? I
need help? The police? They told me it's a civil matter.
And we've talked with people who do take it to

(41:25):
civil courts. They win the suit, well they're not getting
that restitution, and then that person is still romping around
the world scamming other people and they feel so hopeless.
And you've had I'm sure so many people reach out
to you. You talk about that in the book, like
after you have come out public with your story and
the podcast, do you have people reaching out to you
all the time? And I just love that you get

(41:47):
involved and that you've created this resource to help people
because it does seem so difficult. And also, you know,
people are at varying degrees of heartbroken and financially broken
when they're having to take these steps. Was that one
of the reasons you wrote the book, or what was
the impetus of creating this sort of handbook for people.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
That's another great question. Yeah, so I had never planned
to write a book. I'm not an author. I'm a
TV producer. So my story goes public. My con artist
gets convicted. You know, there's a trial and she's convicted,
and it was such a healing experience for me watching
all that go down, being a part of that testifying

(42:30):
against her. As she sat there in court wondering, I'm
wondering to myself, I'm looking. I didn't want to eyeball
the jury to make them uncomfortable, but in my peripheral
I'm looking. All right, it's mostly young men, young women,
a couple of older people. Okay, are they believing me?
Because she never testified, and looking back, her lawyer brought

(42:51):
up a lot of reasonable doubt. It brilliantly hats off,
you know, he really defended her. Well, he said, ladies
and gentlemen of the jury, John the wall, And there's
a TV producer. I am a TV producer. That's true.
You notice the camera in the courtroom. The camera is
recording everything. Because Jonathan got permission Jonathan's recording everything. That's true.

(43:11):
I applied to get a camera in the courtroom. Thank
god the judge allowed at fifty to fifty. Sometimes I do,
sometimes you don't. Thank god they did. Because Jonathan's making
a documentary. Jonathan's making a movie. That's true. I am,
so those three things are true. Here's the lie. Well,
Jonathan's making up all this stuff because he wants a
good movie. He's in Hollywood and he wants a good movie.

(43:34):
And I'm like, that's not true. I'm not making up anything.
But if you're a jury and you're like, that's true,
that's true, that's true, maybe he is making everything up.
So that was a real concern of mine that the
jury might believe that, because a reasonable doubt is a
hell of a space you can drive a truck through.
Like what's reasonable doubt? It could be so many things,
and he was raising a lot of reasonable doubt. But

(43:56):
the thing that I believe sunk Mary Anne Smith in
court was she couldn't find a single solitary person, not
a family member, not a friend, not a coworker, no
one to get up on that stand and testify on
her behalf to say good things about her not one,
and if you're the jury, you got to be asking yourself.

(44:19):
No one wanted to put their reputation on the line
to say she's no one, So evidence be damned. In
my mind, looking back at how it all went down,
it was a three day trial. I think that did
it because at least in other instances, when you see
the criminal their mother, Oh my daughter's a good their father,
their friend, their their husband, their boyfriend, whatever, she's a

(44:39):
really good person, she tries to There was none of
that for her. So that's very telling, you know. And
it wasn't for lack of trying. She tried. You know,
people would call me like, hey, they asked me if
I could testify Maryanne's behalf today because they don't know
that this person's been in touch with me and know
she's a con. You know. But yeah, that did her in.

(45:00):
So what happened was my case exploded. I did a podcast,
Queen of the Con. I was in the Hollywood Reporter,
I was in the New York Times, Like my story
kind of went viral, and all of a sudden, hundreds
and hundreds of victims of other cons start reaching out
to me for help, asking, you know, you've inspired me.
I want to go after my con artists. Now what
do I do? Can you help me? What do I do?
Can you help me? What do I do? Can you

(45:21):
help me? So not knowing any better and feeling like
I want to put to use all this stuff I've
learned in dealing with the system. It took me two
years to get that conviction. Two years, and it was
an obsession. A few months in. I had to hide
it from my husband because he would get mad when
he saw me online like working the case, you know,
and I had to hide it from my friend. Everyone
thought I was crazy, and everyone told me, you need

(45:42):
to let this go, you need to let us go.
And I pretended to let it go. I had to
pretend to let it go to have peace in my home.
But I didn't. I never let it go. I was obsessed,
and that's what it takes. And I was obsessed. So
my story exploded. People start calling me for help, and
I start helping. You know, some people play golf on

(46:03):
the weekends. I started hunting con artists and I start
looking into these cases, and after like I don't know,
a few dozen, it begins to dawn on me, like
wait a minute, wait, a minute. All of these techniques
in all these disparate cases that all these disparate con
men and con women are using on their victims are

(46:24):
identical to what mine did to me. Like they're identical.
So I just started making notes. Oh, offer to help,
Oh too kind, too quick. Oh drama, drama. Oh they
isolated them. Oh they pretended they were better than them.
Oh they use technology a lot. Oh they had a
good day job. A lot of con artists have a
good day job. And that's to make you think, oh,
there's no way this is a scam. They have a

(46:45):
good day job, Like there must be real. There's one
case I write about the book, The con artists worked
in the mayor's office.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
That was wild.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
How could she be a con arnist? She's in the
mayor's office. That case is still ongoing. I've spent like
close to ten grand of my own money on that
case so far. I'm not letting that woman get away
if it's the last thing I do. But anyway, I
wrote an article for the huff Post. I wrote something
that eventually became an article for the huff Post. You know,
at that point, I only had eight of the red flags,

(47:13):
and I got a call from a big time literary agent,
Jenna land Free with folio and she's like, hey, I
loved your article. I think it would make a great book.
She's like, I bet you I could sell a book
like this if I sell it, can you write it?
So I'm like sure, not thinking she could sell it,

(47:34):
but then she sold them like she's so good, you know,
she's amazing.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
And one thing I want to touch on that's one
of your red flags is drama. Drama drama, which is
such a catchy way of putting it, but it's something
you know, Hannah, and I see this all the time
where the con artist creates this something is always wrong,
something is always happening, and the person that they're conning.
The purpose of this is you're just preoccupying, so they

(48:00):
don't know up from down. They can't assess whether or
not you're even telling the truth because they're too busy
trying to save you from some chaotic situation exactly.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
And what they also do, and it's so easy to do,
but regular people never think of doing this. This con
artist who's now your new friend. If they find out
you had a bad breakup, you know, they'll say, hey,
I saw your boyfriend parked upside of your place last night,
like for two hours. Like I was going to call you,
but I didn't want to frighten you. But yeah, what's
going on? So that's not true, but you have no

(48:31):
way of knowing that's not true. So now you're scared
of the boyfriend. And again, con artists don't outsmart you,
they outfeel you. And fear is a powerful feeling. And
if you're busy being scared, you're not thinking with your intellect.
You know you're going to get scammed. This is how
they manipulate you. Yeah, they drama, drama, and the way
I read it when I recorded the audiobook is red

(48:51):
Flag number three drama, drama, drama, perfect, get the audiobooks. Yeah,
it's so powerful, and I'm glad you both have experienced
talking to victims and you concur it's a powerful, powerful
trap that kind of gets you off kilter and you
don't know up from down, go in or come in,

(49:11):
and you're that much more likely to believe the next thing.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, So that's why I wrote the book. It was
an article. Now it's a book, and I am very
proud of it. I've read it eight million times because
God the process of editing, and after the publisher has
their way with it, they want me to read in
the final time. It takes a village, you know, because
we're still catching typos up until prints. But I'm very
proud of it. I think. Yes, the last two chapters

(49:38):
I explain what to do if you've been conned, but
the whole book is how to not get caught. These
are the red flags, and when I point them out,
they're easy to spot, you know, the TMI technique. Oh,
red flag number twelve, Stories from far Away Places. This
is what my con artist was waving immediately. You know.

(49:58):
Con artists like to snow you with story raised from
far away places because they're hard to validate. They're hard
to prove false. Like I was on the Olympic team
in nineteen eighty eight when I was a kid in France.
I was like a junior on the on the Olympic
team in France. Can you prove that's fake? No? They
use human nature against us, human nature being what it is.
If we can't prove something is false, we just accept

(50:20):
it as true. And that's how they live and breathe
life into their stories. Stories from far away places, so
you know, if they're offering to help you, they're too kind,
too quick. There's a lot of drama. They're isolating you
from people. They're telling you, oh, this person said this
about you, and don't talk to them. They're getting you
not to talk to people. That's a huge red flag.
You know, they're using digital screens technology to sell their stories.

(50:42):
You know, there's an element of scarcity in a lot
of these cons You got to act quick. I need
it by this date. The IPO is going public on Friday,
so if you want in, I need that twenty thousand
by Friday. Like scarcity. You know, they're all very effective tools,
but once I point them out, God are they easy
to spot. And I enjoy spotting them. In every case.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Your book it's like if someone has someone in their
life that they feel like is being conned and they're
not seeing it, your book is a really safe space
for that person to come to their own conclusion. Yes,
and I also really appreciate how digestible it is. You know,
so many books that analyze human behavior through anyone lens

(51:22):
can be you know, maybe a little more complicated or
disorder to get through. But yours, I think by way
of great storytelling also makes it a really rivoting read
along with being super informative, and I was so happy
to have read it.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
That means so much to me. Thank you so much.
You know. The more I go along on this journey,
I feel like I was in the perfect position to
do this work. Why. I mean, when I got conned,
it felt like the end of the world. I was
so angry at everything and everyone and God. I was
angry at God. I would ask, how could you let
this have to me? I was just trying to help her,

(52:03):
you know, like I felt forsaken. And I'm not religious
like everyone in LA. I'm spiritual, but I believe in God,
and I felt forsaken. But as time has passed and
what I've been able to do with it, I realized
what a tremendous blessing it's been. I was the chosen one.
I was neo. I was meant to stop her. No

(52:25):
one had stopped her until I came along. No one
everyone limps away quietly into the night, no one says anything,
no one does anything. I'm the guy to do it.
In the same way, I was the guy to help
this woman get her inheritance. I'm the guy to stop her,
and not only stop her, expose her and avoid other
people from getting cont One of the most thrilling days
of my life still to this day. One of the

(52:47):
first victims I found, who found me before the conviction,
before she was charged. She got evicted because she had
convinced our landlord she had cancer and couldn't pay rent
and was in the high spittle getting surgery and treatments,
and she had skated by not paying rent for six months.
And once I exposed her, I went to the landlord said, hey,

(53:09):
this woman scammed me. And she's like, oh, but she
has cancer. I'm like, no, she doesn't. She don't got
no cancer. No, that's cod. She started evicting her. So
at this point Mayor met someone on Tinder, an engineer
in Newport Beach, a guy named Bob. You know, wealthy
guy owns two homes. And again, once I point this out,

(53:30):
you see how similar the paths are. The first date,
he confides in her that he's not happy with his
child custody arrangement with his kids and his ex wife
and he wishes he had a better arrangement of the custody.
And she says, well, you know, this is meant to
be because I happened to be a child custody investigator
for the courts. Oh my god, and I can help you.

(53:53):
Red Flag number one. They offer to help. And think
of Bob. Those two kids, it was like a seven
and nine year old boy and a girl. They mean
the world to him. So now his intellect is taking
a back seat. His emotion has taken over, and he
invites this con artist into his life. She quickly moves
into his home, she starts spending time with his kids,

(54:16):
and she creates this crazy story. She creates all these
characters similar to me, but it was a private investigator.
It was a local district attorney. She's impersonating all these
people over text and email and showing Bob, your wife,
she says, is running adsm sex club out of her
home while the kids are sleeping. Here's evidence, we've tapped
her phones. Like this is going to help your custody arrangement.

(54:37):
And Bob is terrified but thrilled because now he's going
to get full custody of his kids, or so he thinks. Well,
obviously none of these characters were real. There was no
private investigator, there was no disattorney. Bob's ex wife is
not running adsam sex club out of her home. What
the kids are sleeping, that's all drama, drama, drama to
get Bob to do what she wants. So the scam

(54:59):
from Bob was it was a tweak on the inheritance
scam for me. She loves her family. In this scam,
she's getting twenty five million dollars in an inheritance. It's
coming any day. So she's going to buy a house
with twelve million. So she gets into Bob's land rover.
You know, he's a big successful guy, and they get
a real turn and they start looking at these expensive
homes at Newport Beach and she's going to buy one.

(55:22):
She picks the one she's gonna buy, and she tells Bob,
I'm gonna put your name on it with me, like
I want to own this with you, And Bob's like, no,
I can't let you do that up. If our relationship
goes south, I'll own half your home. That's not right
because Bob's a good guy. So she's like, well, if
you want to make it right, just add my name
to the titles of your two homes and it will
be equal. So she draws up paperwork to add his name.

(55:46):
Bob brings his kids to pick out their bedrooms. She
put in a written offer on the house, like there
is no money, but she's gotten everyone to believe it
this far because she needs to get her name added
to his home. So right around the time this is
all happening, Bob's ex wife suddenly gets curious, who the

(56:09):
hell is this woman, Mayor Smith spending all this time
around my kids. I want to know about her? So
what does she do? She does what we all do,
and we want to know something. She googles. She googles
Mayor Smith and up pops my blog and he is shot.

(56:30):
She prints out the blog. Mayor is like living in
his house. At this point, she calls Bob and she's like, hey,
I need to see you right away. Oh okay, me
and Mayor will come over. No, no, no, let's meet
in the park. Don't bring Mayor. I need you alone. Okay, okay.
So they meet in the park. The ex wife gives
Bob the blog and says, this is the woman who's

(56:50):
around our kids. She's a con artist. Bob's like, there's no, no,
this can't this can't be. So Bob takes the printed
out blog back home. He comes to the door and
Bob hands it to her and says, what's this And
in true con artist fashion, they know, let the gigs up.

(57:10):
They know. She didn't say a word. She just walked
right past him, ran over to her car and drove away.
She left her shit there. She was scared.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
It's utterly terrible, but like, oh my god, what a story.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Wow. So the phone call I got from Bob the
first time he called, he was crying like, thank you,
you saved me, You saved me, thank.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
You, because he hadn't put her name on the houses yet.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
No, but the paperwork was drawn up, and he says
he was never going to do it. But I'm like,
but your kids picked out their bedrooms, dude, you brought
your freaking kids. So again it's a little of oh
I knew, No, you didn't. Your kids picked out there,
Like that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
It can be so hard to distant yourself from like believing.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
You know, oh I know. But the love I have
for Bob because he wound up testifying in my case,
he wound up testifying and he helped put her in jail,
and he supported like he was so still to this day.
He sent me the screen grab he pre ordered the book.
He's so excited. He's such a great, amazing guy, and
it just fills me with a sense of purpose, Like

(58:18):
I feel like this is my mission, you know, in
the same way my blog saved him, I want to
save everyone. I want to point out Mayor Smith is
not an anomaly. There are versions of her everywhere. The
problem is there aren't versions of me everywhere. The vast
majority of victims don't say anything. And I've wrestled with

(58:39):
this question because I get asked it all the time,
but why are you different? At first, I thought it
has something to do with me being gay, coming out
at thirty and having to accept that people aren't going
to be happy, like I can't care what people think. Yes,
that's part of it. That's part of my not caring
what people think. That's part of that where that comes from.
But I wish this in the book, but it's not.

(59:01):
But this is the truth that I figured out recently,
So you know. I have a degree in broadcast journalism.
I was a TV reporter for ten years. My first
on air job was in San Antonio. I was hired
at KVB in San Antonio KBBTV, and my job was
to do something fun. I was a feature reporter, so
like fun interesting stories. So my first night on the air,

(59:23):
I've never been on the air. I'm like twenty four
to twenty five years old. I'm a kid. My first
on air job, I go out and shoot this funny
story interview these people I crafted. I edited into a
two minute piece. We call it a package of the
news business. And then I fronted in the studio and
the anchors are laughing and clapping, and I walked back
into the newsroom and all the producers and the guy

(59:45):
who hired me, Alan Little God Rest his soul, and
my executive producer, Greg Kelkin, passed away to God Rest
of Soul, applauding, I'm like king in the world. I'm like, yes,
this is what I'm like. I'm so good, like I
feel like God, I'm like, I've never had a highlight that.
And then a minute later, I get over to my
desk and I sit down and I get my first

(01:00:07):
viewer voicemail. It has rung in my head ever since
I got it. That voicemail. This angry woman, Texas woman,
you ball headed, mother fucking faggot. You so fucking ugly?
How the hell you get on TV? You ball headed,
mother fucking faggot.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
I was devastated. I was devastated, and I had this
crisis of faith, like I can't do this job? What
am I doing here? I went to bed that night,
coiled in the fetal position, crying like I gotta quit.
I can't do I can't do this job. So over
the ensuing weeks, I'm like what am I? Am I
this brilliant new reporter who's funny and gets a standing

(01:00:52):
ovation in the news room? Or am I this guy
too ugly to be on TV? And like what am I? So?
What a blessing that event in my life was because
I quickly figured out the only way I'm going to
be able to function. I can't listen to anyone. I
can't seek anyone's opinion. You'll ask one question and get

(01:01:12):
ten answers. I can't. And I'm a kid, I'm twenty,
I'm in my early twenties learning this, Thank God. And
as I went on in television and I got another
job at the CBS station Houston, I had that mentality
like I don't care what you think. Not only do
I not care what you think. It's not even occurring
to me to care, because people ask me, weren't you

(01:01:33):
scared to go to police? Like, weren't you worried what
they would think? No, it literally never occurred to me.
What are they going to think? I don't care? Never
occurred to me. And the reason that is is because
of these, you know, foundational experiences I had as a kid,
Like that's how I had to be. So that's what
makes me intrinsically different than most other victims. They were
never on the air in San Antonio to get those

(01:01:55):
conflicting what are you the second coming of Christ? Or
you too damn ugly and stupid? Like what are you?
You know? God? So that was such a blessing. And
again I just believe I'm in the perfect place, the
perfect time, doing the perfect thing. I'm meant to be here.
I'm meant to share what I've learned. And I still
can't believe how has there not been a book about

(01:02:15):
these red flags before I got to be the guy
to write it. Yeah, I guess so, because I've read
every con artist book and they're all so victim pejorative,
like some of them outright make fun of victims, and
I'm like, how can you be so stupid? Like, No,
there's a system that they use and this is what
it looks and sounds like, it feels like and until
it's happening to you and they got into your emotion,

(01:02:38):
like with Bob, I can help you get a better
custody arrangement. Who doesn't want that? Like they offer to
help and you love them, They get you to love them.
Love is the most powerful force there is in the universe.
People kill for love, people die for love, and a
con artist's job is to get you to love them
or love the thing they're creating, because once you're making
decisions on that love, you're not the straight you're going

(01:03:00):
to get con.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Yeah, it's so great. It's such a great resource because
I think a lot of people are afraid to go
to the police or just maybe wouldn't even know where
to start, and the idea of trying to figure that
out can feel overwhelming. And so who you are and
your life experiences like all aligned to where you were
able to really take this on and so grateful that

(01:03:22):
you were able to get justice in your case and
then as well like support other people and you know,
it's interesting thinking about you know, you mentioned the same
thing that sort of got you conned in some ways,
is this desire to help her, this Irish heiress is
also the same thing that your desire to help other people,
but not in like a scammy way. And it makes

(01:03:43):
me think about how the thing that makes people susceptible
to being conned is their humanity in so many ways,
it's just like human nature, it's psychology. It's the good
parts of people too, right, the things that like they
don't actually want to erase about themselves. What are they

(01:04:03):
supposed to do? Never love someone again, never trust someone again?
Like what kind of life is that? But I like
the clarity of how you've pointed out these red flags
and you point out that, you know, maybe just one
of them might not be a red flag on its own.
But really think critically about if someone that your meeting
has like three or four or five, and you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Know, yeah, if they're five, it's a scam. Is there five?
If you've identified five of these red flags, yeah, you're
gonna find You're gonna find a bunch more walk away,
get away, ruck away. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
So it's nice that there's these like tools that are
clear and that the answer is not just don't ever
care about anyone again?

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
You know, yeah, because people ask me the all the time. Well,
it's ruined your trusting people. I'm like it has, but
I'm glack. I now I pretend to trust everyone, but
secretly I'm verifying. You know. Yeah, I'm still a nice person.
I still make friends, but I'm suspicious. The other night,
I was dragged this cocktail party in the valley, which

(01:05:00):
in La, it's like, if you live in La, you
gotta go to the valleys over the hill. It's a trek.
So I'm at this cocktail party and this new couple
comes in. They're friends of a friend who came and
it's a very good looking couple, men and woman. They
look like an OnlyFans couple. And you know, they introduced
themselves to us briefly, and they're retired. They're from Arizona.
They came here to retire in La. And that was weird.

(01:05:22):
But okay, you're retiring in LA. But then because of
that weirdness and they were hot, I paid attention. I
tried to eavesdrop. That's just me. No one else did
I did. This is a weird story that you're retiring.
You guys are in you like early thirties or late thirties,
Like retiring, it's possible. Sure. So then as I'm eavesdropping,
I hear them telling three other origin stories some people.

(01:05:46):
They tell he works in security at the mall and
she has as she does hair and makeup, Like, well,
wait a minute, that's not what they told me. So
now I'm obsessed with these people because I'm not very
good at cocktail parties. I only like people I love,
like don't I don't want to meet you people. So
now I have something to do. I start like getting
a drink and hanging around and listening to Yeah. But

(01:06:10):
I didn't have the bandwidth to take on that case.
But I told the person who through the party, I'm like, listen,
these people, how do you know them? Oh, they're friends
and blah blah. Well something's up, Like why would they
tell three different origin stories? Only a scammer does that.
They're hiding something, they're lying about themselves, and they're so
good looking. A lot of scammers are good looking because

(01:06:32):
they learn to use it and work it. So I
don't know what the scam is, but stay away from
these people. And I left, but I guarantee you there
was some kind of con going on.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
I also think, like in your life, when you meet
people and you develop friendships, non con artist people quote
like normal people, they I think are usually pretty comfortable
with like trust is earned and not over asking and
like you said, over sharing. I mean, if you meet

(01:07:03):
someone and they immediately like need something from you or
or want to help the bist problem in your life,
as you've said, immediately with you know yeah TMI, the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Help is fake, you know mayor with Bob. She was
not a child custody investigator with the courts. But it's
easy to lie like, hey, I'm going through you know,
I just my car was impounded. Hey I know someone
at the impound lot. Oh, but you don't need to
know someone. You just need to extend the offer and
now they like you. Yeah, they can get in there.

(01:07:35):
You know. The help is a lie, but it's powerful.
It makes you like them immediately. What they're trying to
do is get you like them immediately. And who doesn't
like a helper? We all do. Well.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
If I meet anyone that I have questions about, Jonathan,
I will make sure to invite both you and them
to an.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
Event and then I'll let you leaves drop.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Yeah, and we'd also like to do some follow ups
on this couple if you find out anything else serious.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
I regret. I regret. I was just so you know,
writing this book. It took me three years, and I
would write in the morning. I wake up at four
am every day, so from five am to ten am,
I would just write because that's when I'm the quickest, freshest,
most creative, and then I go out with my other job.
I just didn't have the bandwidth to like look into
anything else because I got all these but I can

(01:08:21):
immediately if someone is telling you different origins and you
overhear them, and there's such a good looking couple, and
you know, my story made no sense. They're retired, like
you're way too young to retire. But my friends accepted
that I'm not a regular person anymore. I'm suspicious all
the time, and I want to be that way. Yeah,
because the people I was with are like, yeah, so
they retired like this is la Like they could have

(01:08:42):
a lot of money, they could have a trust fund,
like you don't know, yeah, like yeah, or they could
be scammers, work in the room. You know. Olkham's Razor.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Yeah, it's also so strange to like come in hot
with like this portrayal of wealth.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Yeah, and that's the title of my next booking.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
In Hot, Coming in Hot. Well, this has just been
so delightful. Thank you so much for joining us, Jonathan. Yeah, really,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
And you know, I've been doing a lot of interviews lately,
but this has been the most fun. You you too
are great. Thank you and you you really I'm not
blowing smoke. You've asked the most relevant and insightful questions
and I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Oh, thank so, thank you. That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
You get it. This is your world. You deal with
a lot of scams, so thank you. I think we're
helping people.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
So yeah, I mean we're going to be recommending this
book to a lot of people. I already have people
in my mind where I'm like, they should read this book.
Could really help them in their lives.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Yeah, because so many people who are getting canned don't
know it, and it's hard for others to point it
out because they get defensive, especially if it's a relationship. Yeah,
but if you give them the book, let it, if
they reached the conclusion on their own, it's that much
more powerful. Oh totally, like they're raving all these flags
and I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Well, awesome, it's been a delight. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate taking the time. We'll speak with you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Definitely, thank you, guys, Petia.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
I think one of my favorite things that's ever been
said on a Knife podcast thus far is something Jonathan
said in this interview, and he said, some people golf
on the weekends. I hunt con artists. I love that
it's aspirational. He's a hero. I loved when he said
I'm a vegetarian and then talked about the murder fantasies.

(01:10:31):
I mean that was just such a wild thing to
listen to someone talk about, but like so authentic to
what he was feeling, so authentic, and I think a
lot of people would be afraid to talk about that.
When he said that he understood what it was like
to have the urge to murder someone, I was like, whoa.

(01:10:51):
He said, I appreciate your honesty. Yeah, I mean I do.
That was such a great conversation and just such a
perfect example of how you never think it's going to
be you. Yeah, it's like you're moving through life, you
have no choice, but to live your life kind of
trusting people. Yeah, that's how you build relationships. And then

(01:11:14):
he finds himself at the center of this incredible scheme
and proceeds to completely unravel it. I know, gosh, I
really love his book. I appreciate it so much. It's
not just like a platitude when we say anyone can
be conned, like you really believe that. I do, And

(01:11:35):
I don't know if I always believe that. I think that.
You know, when I started interviewing people that had been
victims of cons it really like changed my understanding of
who is scammed and how like completely. I think that
there's still this prevalent idea in society that people that

(01:11:56):
are victims of scams are somehow less intelligent. It just
is not It's one hundred percent not true. It could
not be further from the truth. And one of the
things that I think this book does so well, and
Jonathan does so well, is that he lays out these
red flags that are so clear and concise, which is
so opposite oftentimes how someone feels when they're being conned.

(01:12:18):
It's like they can feel very murky because so much
of these scams that people pull off are these like
calculated psychological manipulations over time that are really hard to
kind of like pin down in your life, especially when
you're reeling from being conned. And so really it's like
who can be cond humans? Like the people that are

(01:12:41):
susceptible to being conned are people that are human? Yeah, everyone?
I mean I think that you meet your neighbor because
you want to get access to an amenity you pay
for what you're building. That is as innocuous as any
other way of meeting anyone. And yet she set her
sights on him, Yeah, and stole so much and like

(01:13:02):
four years later invested four years.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
That's the other piece of this. It's like there's always
that analogy, like the boiling frog or something. Oh yeah,
the fog and the slowly boiling pot, right, that is
a telltale sign now that we've seen. I mean, I
guess it's not even a sign because it happened so slowly,
but yeah, conardists know what they're doing. Yeah, what is
a light to talk with Jonathan? And so one thing

(01:13:28):
I don't think we talked about this in the episode,
but Jonathan has also covered Peggy Fulford. So we did
a season on Peggy Fulford for the Opportunists back in
twenty twenty two. She was the corrupt money manager who
stole money from her clients, many of whom were professional athletes,
including Dennis Rodman and Ricky Williams. And I actually interviewed
Peggy over a video call while she was in prison.

(01:13:50):
Jonathan let us know she's out of prison now. I
had not kept up with that, but Jonathan said he
referenced that video call in his coverage of Peggy on
Queen of the Con So that was sort of fun.
We discussed that before we hit record, but it was
such a pleasure to talk with someone who also has
spent so much time, you know, researching and investigating con artists. Yeah.

(01:14:13):
I mean, he's very enthusiastic about his work, and I
love that. I don't think this makes it into the
cut of the interview, but Jonathan talked about something that
I think is so important, which is jury duty. He
talked about how before going through this and having to
testify against Mayor Smith for all the money that she'd stolen,

(01:14:37):
how he had always just tried to get out of
jury duty, and then when he was on this side
of it where he wanted justice, how important it felt
to him, and how important it was that these jurors,
you know, take that responsibility really seriously and sort of
see it as this duty and try to find the

(01:14:59):
right outcome. And I've thought a lot about that since
he said it, because, yeah, I too have hoped to
never be called for jury duty, and when I have been,
I've been very relieved not to be chosen. And look,
there are some difficult things with jury duty, like time
away from work and whatnot. But yeah, I think next time,
if I have the opportunity to do it, I'll probably

(01:15:20):
have a different attitude. Yeah, I love that. I don't
know how I missed that, because I'm right there on board.
I actually have wanted to be called for jury duty.
It's like my dream.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
That's nice. No I'm not I'm not going to be picked.
I was called last year and I was thrilled, and
I was like, how do I downplay what I do
for my job, because I feel like they're going to
be like, no, you read court documents all the time,
you're not no, no, no. But I just I think
it's cool. I think it's cool that we get to
be part of a jury. As someone who loves like

(01:15:54):
investigating cases. I would love to sit in a jury
box and be like, Okay, what's going on, what's the evidence.
But I'm totally romanticizing it because I've never done it,
and I know that it is a huge time commitment.
Often it is a public service. But I do think
that Jonathan's right, and I appreciate that he said that
because you know, if you find yourself needing a jury

(01:16:16):
for some reason, like you don't want someone falling asleep
in the jury box. You want peopleho are paying attention
and who are going to do their best right, who
see the job as important. Yeah. Yeah, I've thought a
lot about that. Jonathan's book, Anatomy of a con Artist
is out now and I highly recommend it. It was such
a great read. It was really enthralling, so much amazing
storytelling along with really digestible information about con artists, how

(01:16:42):
they operate, and how to spot the red flags before
it's too late. Yeah, it was such a well written book.
And you know, if you think that there's someone in
your life who's being scammed, it's a great holiday present
for them. We're birthday gift, you know, lean into that
passive aggressive right behavior. Might soften the blow rather than
just hey, listen, I think that you're being taken for

(01:17:04):
a ride. Yeah, that's our episode. Thanks for listening. If
you have a story for us, we would love to
hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com,
or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast. This has
been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by me

(01:17:25):
Hannah Smith and me paysha Ety. Our producers are Tom
Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi. This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is
by Birds in the Airport, artwork by Vanessa Lilac. Executive
produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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