The Knife: Off Record – 102

On the very first episode of The Knife: Off Record, hosts Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton bring you a behind-the-scenes conversation about making a true crime podcast. Plus, Patia tells Hannah about a missing persons case in Tennessee. 

Show Notes: 

SOLVED 21 Year Old Missing Persons Case (Erin Foster & Jeremy Bechtel) 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. Hi, Pasha,

(00:21):
Hey Anna, how's it going. It's good. I am excited
to be here in studio. Can you believe it? I
mean I can hardly believe it. We're recording our very
first episode of The Knife off record, which we also
understand is technically there's a record of it because we
are recording it, sol of it. It's all here for
you to hear, keep a record of.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, we're calling this episode format of our show off
record because we have our interview episodes where we speak
with people who have lived through a crime, and many,
many times we come across stories where something really interesting
has happened, something we want to explore further, but nobody

(01:02):
wants to talk with us about it, and we still
want to talk about it, so we find out everything
we can, and we're here to bring you those stories.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah. I actually just talked to someone yesterday and I
found the timing appropriate since I knew we were coming
in to record today. I was like, Yes, I got
a hold of him. I've been trying to call him.
We got to talk to this guy. He is intimately
connected to the story that we're researching, and this type
of thing happens to us all the time, where you
get a hold of someone they start talking to you

(01:31):
and you're just like, oh, yes, like everything you're saying
is gold. I'm so thrilled that you're talking to me.
And then they get to the end and they're like,
but I don't want to do an interview, and also
don't use my name off the record.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
This is off the record, and you're like, Okay, how
am I going to tell this story and also keep
this person's trust. So that's something we're always looking to do. Recently,
I called someone about a story and it was a
situation where the same thing. She answered my call, she
was excited to hear from me, excited to tell me

(02:07):
about what she had been through. I asked her if
she would schedule a recorded interview. She agreed, and just
before the call ended, she said, you know, actually I
had a question and I said what is it?

Speaker 1 (02:18):
And she said, what is a podcast? And what a
great question? A great question. It did stump me for
a moment.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
So at that point I have to take a step
back and say, Okay, this person may not totally understand
what they're signing. Up for and I need to make
sure that they know that before they do the interview.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, sometimes those conversations end up turning into an interview.
Sometimes they don't. They just end up as being informative
background conversations for a story we are researching. And then
sometimes it means we can't turn the story into an
interview episode. And that's okay too. But you and I
have been and we'll get into our intros here in
a second for people who don't know us, But we've

(02:58):
been producing podcasts for a while together now, and one
of the things that we've learned is that there are
stories that you and I feel passionate about, we fall
in love with, we think are important stories to tell
that we for a variety of reasons, have not been
able to tell on a podcast. So we are going
to bring you listeners those stories as well on the

(03:18):
Knife Off Record episodes. And we're excited to be able
to tell you some stories that we find interesting and important.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Right and really put you guys in the room with
us during conversations we're having about these stories.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Anyway.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
I mean, when we can't find the right person to
interview for whatever reason about a story, usually doesn't stop
us from sitting on zoom for an extra half hour
of being like, but guess what I learned? And that
is why I'm so excited to be doing these episodes
me too. These are going to be conversational episodes. Along
with bringing listeners a true crime story, we are going
to do a variety of things. We'll talk about conversations

(03:53):
that you and I find important or intriguing. As we
produce a true crime podcast, will sometimes answer listener questions,
but it gives us an opportunity to invite listeners into
the things that you and I talk about that we
are fascinated by. This episode, this is our first the
Knife off Record episode. We are going to answer a

(04:14):
few questions from listeners and then we're going to get
into a story that Patia is going to tell us
about a missing person's case that you were going to
want to stick around for. Yeah, and that missing person's
case and the research I did on that actually helped
me get a job working with you, Hannah, So why
don't you tell people a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 1 (04:36):
So I'm Hannah Smith, and I've been working in podcasting
since twenty seventeen. Like many many people listen to the
first season of Cereal when it came out, and really
was just blown away. I have always liked writing and storytelling,
and I remember just feeling so amazed that you could

(04:58):
tell a story, a true true story, a crime story,
in this format, in this way, and I just felt like,
I want to try to tell stories like that. I
want to do something like that. So I started working
in podcasting. I worked on a bunch of different shows
in different genres, editing, producing, writing, and then in twenty twenty,
I got a job lead, producing, hosting, and writing a

(05:20):
true crime podcast called The Opportunist. We covered crimes of opportunity,
mostly fraud, as well as some cults. And even though
I was a true crime fan before that, it was
my first time working on a true crime podcast, and
I fell in love with true crime all over again.
From this different perspective of what it's like to be

(05:40):
on the other side of it, to make a podcast
like this, I found out that I love making this
type of podcast. I love researching stories, I love speaking
and interviewing people who were there, who lived it. I
knew that this is what I wanted to do, so
I kept doing it edit it for three years and
was throw to do it. And if you've never heard

(06:02):
of the show, no worries. You're here now, and I'm
so glad that you're here with us. If you did
hear the show and we're a fan, then I have
to tell you that I was, by no means the
only person that made that show. There were a lot
of great people that made that happen. And one of
those great people is sitting here with me today, Paytia Eton.
So if you were a fan of the show, you
should know her as well, because Paytia came and worked

(06:24):
on the show from season two on and we just
immediately became friends and found out that we have a
lot in common as far as the stories that we
are interested in and the way that we want to
tell them. Long ago, we dreamed about doing a new show,
a different show together. So I'll throw it over to
you now, Patia, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
So when I moved to Los Angeles, I wanted to
work in scripted television, and I pursued that for a
really long time, and I ended up working at a
production company. Loved the people I worked with and the
shows I was working on, but a lot of stars
have to align for a TV show to get made,
and I was becoming sort of disenchanted by that. And
the pandemic came along, and I was one day away

(07:08):
from flying to North Carolina for a pilot shoot. Everything
got shut down, and I was just so disappointed. I
was out on my deck listening to a podcast and
I'm like, you know, I wonder if I could do this,
but I don't have any podcasting experience. I don't have
any nonfiction storytelling experience. I've only ever worked in scripted.
So I was like, Okay, how can I do this.

(07:30):
I'm trapped in my apartment and I found a missing
person's case in Tennessee and I started researching it and
as I was in the process of doing that, I
applied to work with you on Opportunists.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Did not get the job. Applied again, Well, it wasn't
my fault that you didn't get the job. I just
want to say it was someone else's.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
But yeah, I was Okay, I'm going to just take
this extra time to continue teaching myself how to do
this kind of work. And that was the best thing
that could have happened, because I really fell in love
with speaking with people that I would have otherwise never
met and hearing their stories, and you know, it's amazing.
You think of it as this work you're doing, but

(08:12):
it's actually incredible how many of them you end up
keeping in touch with. And I also, as a true
crime listener, started thinking, Okay, these are the kinds of
podcasts I like listening to.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
But why.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
One thing that I think you and I really connected
on is that there's a wide spectrum in true crime storytelling.
But why it's so meaningful to us is because at
the end of the day, some of these stories are
really fascinating, but why do we tell them.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Well, I think that people want.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
To know that what they went through mattered, and it
does matter and we can all learn from it. And
so I was just really enamored with that and by
the ability to just make something from home, and that
was really cool to.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Me, especially probably coming from television. Yeah, there's so much
that goes into making something.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, and you know, we were able to make the
show that we were working on remotely, and it was
just about working really hard and trying really hard and
getting better every day. And now we're here, and I
just couldn't be more excited.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, me too. You're going to tell the story later
about this case that you ended up doing a lot
of research into and reporting on. I'm really excited for that.
Even though you should have gotten the job in the beginning,
you know, it gave you time to look into this case.
It gave me time to look into the case, and
also really solidified that this was something I wanted to

(09:34):
be doing. It wasn't just like a hail Mary attempt
to get a job when no one knew the future
of television. Yeah, and now we're here, and I'm just
so excited to be working together and Exactly Right Media.
What a dream? What a dream? Truly. Another thing we're

(09:57):
excited about is hearing from you. We would love to
talk to you about past episodes and answer any questions
you had about it, or provide case updates if we
have them. So you can write to us at the
Knife at Exactlyrightmedia dot com, and we can't wait to
hear from you. Since this is the first time we're
doing this, we asked the producers and staff if they

(10:18):
had any questions for us that would help you get
to know us and learn about what we do, and
I think we got some good ones say did have
a questions. The first question we're going to answer today
has to do with last week's episode, our interview with
Darun Henry. The question is, how did you first come
across Darun's story and how did you go about reaching
out to her? Paysha, do you want to take this one? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I actually saw Darun's story playing out in the media
in real time shortly after she released the viral video,
and the story just really stuck with me. And as
soon as we had a platform where I felt like
we could bring her on to tell her.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
A story, I suggested that we reach out.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
I had just had a moment taken in Instagram off
my phone and actually asked you to reach out, and
that's how we were connected to Durun.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah. Always a good idea, you know, to take a
break from social media and don't make sure that great. Yes,
we take turns so that one of us can always
reach out to sources. This is what friends are for,
That's right, And Durun was really gracious when I reached out,
and we are so glad that she came on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Our next question is what types of stories or motivations
are you drawn to most a crime of passion, random
opportunistic crime, greed motivated crimes, or other.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Hmm, great question. Great question. I find myself drawn to
stories that are less straightforward. I'm less interested in like
a crime of passion where someone like murdered someone else
without forethought. I love to dig into a story where

(11:55):
there are a lot of layers. This is one of
the reasons I love cult stories. I feel really passionate
about telling cult stories. I really love interviewing people who
have been a part of a cult and left a cult.
I just think that those stories are so complicated and
there's so many layers. There's so much psychology involved as well,

(12:17):
you know. I find myself drawn to like really complex,
difficult to understand crimes, really like why did someone do it?
If the answer is not clear, then I'm like, Okay,
let's dig in and try to figure out why. Oftentimes
there's not like an easy answer, right. But I remember
when we were on The Opportunist, we would try to

(12:39):
find cases where the motivation was not always money, and
it was so hard. When you're just researching stories all
the time and having to tell stories all the time,
you start to see all these patterns and it was
also because we were making stories that were within a lens, right,
there had to be crimes of opportunity. There was a

(12:59):
lot of odd that we covered and cults and scams,
and a lot of times people are motivated by money,
so we were always like looking for stories where the
motivation was not money and was different or more unclear.
And I think that with cult stories, money is oftentimes
very much a factor, but there's also this factor of

(13:21):
just like psychological control that sometimes people want to wield
over other people. So that's a long answer, but I
am really interested in scams and cults, particularly what about you. Yeah,
I think in researching investigating the cults we looked into
on opportunities were fascinating. I think the patterning cults that

(13:43):
intrigues me is this idea that you become someone you
don't know. It's this like, you know, when someone commits
a crime and you know that person, maybe you now
they're a stranger to you, But when you become the
stranger to yourself, it's like, well, can I even trust
my own brain?

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes? And that is a really wild thing for people
to sort of unpack and pull themselves out of. And
it's also this slow burn kind of story where you know,
it doesn't start with like, hey, come join my cult.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, it never starts like ever would not be.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Good for that cult, And so that is I think
something that really resonates with me is you never think
it's going to be you, and then it is and
you don't even know it for a long time. I'm
also really interested in missing persons cases. I think what
draws me into those is maybe a sense of possibility,

(14:37):
but also like a hope that always you hope for
the best. I think in any case like that, but
this sort of how can we come together to maybe
bring some answers or clarity here? I think whenever we
can do good, we want to do that. And so
those cases I do find really end up intriguing me.

(14:59):
I think that when you when you work in true crime,
you know, you find yourself reading all of these really
heavy headlines and it doesn't always make sense to tell
a crime story. You know, it doesn't always make sense.
It's not just because someone will talk to us and
tell it. Yeah, I totally agree. You've really hit on
something that we think about a lot when we're choosing

(15:20):
a story. I think it's such a great point when
it comes to missing persons cases, because there is that
hope and as you'll talk about later too, just that
like need for answers, that it's hard to not have
those answers for loved ones who have someone go missing, right,
And then it makes me think of for stories that
are involved victims of cults or like a romance scam

(15:43):
or something like that. I always find great value in
speaking to someone and letting them tell their story and
trying to understand that because there's so much victim blaming
that happens. Right, people are oftentimes considered to be dumb
or whatever, and it's just that's not been the case
and what I've found talking with so many people, So
I like the chance to try to communicate that to

(16:06):
listeners and understand the complexities of these type of situations
and how it could happen to anyone. And that feels
meaningful to me. Yeah, absolutely, Okay. The next question, true
crime often remains open ended with cases unresolved or unsolved.
Do you like that aspect of it or is it
frustrating anytime a victim or their family wants the case

(16:30):
solved and it's not, it's frustrating. It's hard to talk
to them, and you know the reality is that in
a lot of cases, as time goes on, resources are
allocated to something that is more maybe current or solvable.
You know, I find it frustrating on their behalf whenever
that happens. I know, law enforcement also finds it frustrating.

(16:51):
You know, they might not have the manpower or the
resources to put as much into an unsolved case as
they would like. It's also really exciting to see the
developments and technology and how that's been able to bring
resolution to cold cases. And you know, that's something that
I think has been interesting to watch play out. People
being convicted of crimes decades earlier and families so really sting. Yeah,

(17:16):
finally getting that resolution.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, especially with well obviously DNA developments and then the
DNA testing and you hear about like crimes being solved
because of.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
That genetic genealogy. I mean, I guess from the standpoint
of a producer, the unsolved unresolved cases, you know, I
think everyone wants to play a part in helping solve something,
but ultimately those stories can be harder to tell because

(17:47):
how do you end a story that doesn't have resolution?

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, but we can go back to Cereal season one. Yeah,
everyone discovered the difficulty of it listening. Oh wow, there's
no easy way to wrap up this true story, right
someone in prison? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, So last listener question for today is actually one
I love talking about, which is how do you get
people to agree to speak with you?

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah? This is a huge part of the job. How
do you get someone to agree to speak with you?
I think it's really tricky. We do a lot of
cold calling. You know. There's so many times where I
will call someone on the phone who I don't know,
who have never spoken with before, and talk with them
about the project that I'm doing and what my approach is,

(18:32):
and try to build that trust with them so that
they will feel comfortable enough to give me their time
and energy and talk to me about an experience they
had that was probably a really bad experience. So even
them revisiting that and telling me that takes a lot
of trust. So I think ultimately it's building trust and

(18:52):
being authentic. It does.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
And a lot of times when you first called someone,
their question is how did you get this number? Totally
and then you have to tell them, well, I was
just you know, lurking around the internet. And I actually
found a bunch of stuff in addition to that. But yeah,
I did just call your cell phone. And I try
to sometimes send a text like, hey, this is who

(19:14):
I am. I'm going to give you a call. I'd
love to speak with you, but I do sometimes I
never do that. If I feel like they might be
unsettled by an unknown number and someone asking about it.
Sometimes I'll do that, not always, but it depends. If
I know that someone has given a statement to like
a local newspaper already about what happened to them, you know,

(19:37):
it gives us a sense of okay, they might be
open to hearing from me, or it's someone whose name
has maybe never been published and you don't know how
they're going to respond to being contacted. I think it
also plays into it how much time has passed since
whatever the incident was, if it's been you know, a
year or ten years. I think if it's something that

(19:59):
is more recent, they might be more expecting your call.
If it's not, they might be put off by it
at first. And you know, talking about ethical storytelling and
sort of what we look for when we're sourcing new stories,
is this why why are we going to tell the story,
and I think it's really important on that first phone
call that you're able to answer that question absolutely. Yeah, yeah,

(20:22):
because you know, understandably, why would someone talk to us
and retell us this traumatic story just because And I
think it's also just a good measure a guidepost for
yourself as you're looking into stories. If you can't answer
that question, maybe don't make that phone call.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, that is that's a really good guide post, because
you need a compelling why for someone to care to
talk to you. Because a lot of people have said
this comes at a cost for me, I'm going to
have to revisit something that was horrible, so I need
to know that there's a reason I'm doing it, which
is totally fair.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
And oftentimes, you know, in these stories, everyone's not on
the same page about how things happened, and you know,
was someone's sentence fair, were they guilty at all? Did
you play a role in it that you're not disclosing
in your interview. These are things people are concerned with
when they're going to be recorded. And I get that.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
I've interviewed someone in the past who I thought was
a victim and then over the course of speaking with him,
multiple times, it sort of became I started to question, like,
I don't think what you're telling me is true. I
have court documents, and you know, I have all this
research that shows what happened, and it doesn't line up
with what you're saying. And now I'm wondering if you
were like part of the crime in some way. So

(21:41):
it can get a little bit tricky. And when you
call someone out of the blue, Patia, if you have
like fifteen seconds before the hang up on you and
think you're like a spam caller, what words are you
trying to get out quickly?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
I usually see something along the lines of like, if
I'm calling you, I'm going to say, Hi, is this Hannah.
My name is Patia Eton. I'm a producer based in
Los Angeles, and I'm calling to ask you about whatever,
just so that you know they immediately know who I'm
calling for.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
BEU.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
You don't always have the right number. And I've said
my name, and then I just sort of wait, and
then probably they say, what is your name exactly? Yeah,
I get that all the time, which I get it
Patia Patia, Yeah, that is my quick shpiel. And then
you know, a surprising amount of people do take that call,
whether they agree to interview or not. Occasionally you get

(22:32):
hung up on and that's just part of the job.
And when people do that, we don't call them back.
We just leave them alone. But yeah, it also varies
a lot. Are you calling a victim, are you calling
law enforcement? Are you calling the perpetrator of the crime,
because those are people that we have a duty to call,
whether or not we think the interview is relevant to
the story. You know, a lot of times when we're
calling the person who has been convicted of a crime,

(22:55):
we know they're not gonna call us up and sort
of dive into their own psych We know they're going
to say it didn't happen like that, you read something wrong.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
That's generally the case.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
But you have a duty to make those phone calls anyway,
if you're going to talk about a crime that's been committed.
So it also depends who you're calling, and generally those
people are less interested in speaking with you. Okay, let's

(23:27):
move on to Producers Cut, which is a segment where
we let you peek behind the curtain of what it
is like for us as producers on a true crime
podcast and kind of give you an insider look to
the conversations that we have with each other. You know, Pasha,
the last question that we took from listeners about cold calling.
It's really interesting because I think it leads right into

(23:48):
the case that you first investigated. Before you had ever
made a podcast or were a producer on a podcast
or anything. You just took it upon yourself to investigate
a case, which I think is a really interesting case.
How did you find out about it? Yeah, so this
is all happening back in twenty twenty, during the pandemic.

(24:09):
I'm deciding I'm really interested in working on a podcast,
and so I have no podcasting experience at that point,
and after not getting the associate producer role on the
opportunities that first time magic, Yeah tragic, I decided I
should try to make one. And I had a lot
of time at that point. My job was not taking

(24:30):
up very much of it. And I started looking into
a missing person's case in Sparta, Tennessee. And I started
doing that in August of twenty twenty, so I didn't
exactly know where to start. I thought maybe I would
look on Reddit and see if there was anything locals
were saying about the case, and I really didn't find anything,

(24:51):
except for one person on the Sparta Tennessee reddit had
maybe commented on a true crime Reddit post about it, saying, yeah,
I'm from there, this happened. We don't know where they are.
It wasn't like they didn't have any sort of like
explosive information. But I reached out to that person and
he didn't want me to use his names. I'm not

(25:11):
going to use it now, but he grew up in
that town and was the same age as the kids
who went missing. And those kids who went missing were
Aaron Foster, female age eighteen, and Jeremy Bechdel male, age seventeen,
and they went missing on April third of two thousand.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Tell us a little bit about the case. What you
knew at that time, I guess was that basically all
that you knew.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, So all that had been written about the case
at that point was that Aaron Foster and Jeremy Bechtel
had gone missing, And what was generally known about the
case was that they had been last seen at a
party and they had left that party in Aaron's car together,
and that would be around ten pm that night. So initially,
this is all I knew about the case, and the

(25:58):
party had taken place at a person named Bubba Cole's house.
Bubba's actual name is Brian Cole. He's actually since passed away,
passed away in twenty fourteen, so I was never able
to speak with Bubba.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
But Bubba's house was a location that was.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Known to local law enforcement as a place where people,
you know, there was partying, there was alcohol and some
drug use. And that's pretty much what was out there
is that they had left this party and never been
seen again. And so the speculation in the beginning was
really at this party, well what happened at the party?

(26:31):
That's kind of where I started. I tried to figure
out who was there, and I started actually by calling
Jeremy's parents. Now I learned that over the course of
looking for his parents, his mother, Ronda, had passed away.
She passed away from a battle with cancer in twenty eighteen.
So I reached out to Jeremy's father, Ronnie Bechdel, and

(26:53):
Ronnie took my call and I just said, hey, you know,
this is my name, and I'm working on a story
about this. Sometimes I didn't even say podcast. I would
say like, I'm not sure what I want this to be.
I think I want it to be a podcast, but
I'm just interested in learning more about this case and
seeing if there's anything we can find out. It's been

(27:15):
a lot of years. At this point, they had been
missing twenty years. So Ronnie, you know, he's the nicest person,
and he was like, yeah, what do you want to know?
And he told me that he was like, well, I
actually spoke with Jeremy while he was at the party.
I spoke to him an hour before he left the party,
and he said, can you pick me up from school tomorrow?

Speaker 1 (27:36):
And I said sure.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
So I learned Jeremy was getting sged, which you know,
I'm not in a professional investigator, but it tells me
he had some sort of plan for the future. You know,
he was planning to attend classes that next day, coordinating
a ride home with his dad. And Ronnie said, when
he went the next day, Jeremy didn't show up, and
he said that was unusual, So, okay, we know that's

(27:59):
out of character. Jeremy and I started with that, and
I was like, okay, so they had plans the next day.
They probably didn't just run off somewhere. But as I
continued making calls that theory kept presenting itself that Aaron
and Jeremy had run off. The idea was that they
were in Florida, in Pensacola, Florida. It was a place that.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Maybe one of them had a family member, and they
were always really, you know, intrigued by the idea of
going there. Did Jeremy's dad, Ronnie think that was a
possibility as well? Did he mention that or no, Yeah,
we talked about it. He said no.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
He said it would be very unlike Jeremy to be
gone this long. I mean at this point twenty years, right.
He didn't say I think that Jeremy's passed away, but he,
you know, optimism had faded over the years, two decades.
And he was just so kind and willing to share
with me who you know, I'd never met him, and

(28:57):
it really kind of motivated me to continue on with
this project. And so I continued calling people. I was like,
can you tell me the names of any of his friends?
And he could, and so I started off that list,
and I called a woman named Rosa, who at the
time was actually living in southern California, And so I

(29:18):
live in Los Angeles, and I drove out to see her,
and we had lunch, and Rosa had told me, yes,
they had gone to this party and were never seen again.
And she was not at the party, but she was
supposed to be there, and so she had all of
the survivor's guilt. Rosa's just like she's a person you
want as your friend. And I mean, she's bubbly, she's kind,

(29:39):
she's warm, she's smart, she's funny, and she's so close
with Aaron Foster and carrying this with her all of
these years. And you know, I had listened to a
lot of true crime podcasts, I'd read a lot of
true crime stories, but speaking to Rosa really showed me
how long someone carries this. You know, it doesn't go away,

(30:01):
you don't stop wondering. And she also was just so
welcoming that I was like, Okay, I'm going to continue
making these phone calls.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Did she tell you anything about Aaron in that meeting,
like her relationship with Aaron, Like who is Aaron Foster?

Speaker 2 (30:16):
She said, Aarin was so much fun, just the nicest person.
She said that she wasn't sure if Aaron and Jeremy
were dating at the time, they were very close friends.
But exactly what their relationship was was sort of unknown
at the time, and so Rosa told me that they
had all talked about running away to Florida. That was
something they talked about all the time.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Including Rosa.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
She is talking Abourosa, so the three of them. Wow, yeah,
and so I'm like, okay, that is something to think about.
So these kids have actually talked about this a lot,
this idea of running away. She said, You know, I
really did think that they were in Florida for a
long time. But I also couldn't imagine Aaron leaving without me.
That didn't seem like something Aarin would do. But we

(30:58):
had been talking about it, talked about it really recently
before they disappeared, So I just sort of assumed that
that's what happened.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
It's just such an interesting thing to talk about with
your friends. And I'm curious if that speaks to something
about living in Sparta, Tennessee. As a teenager. Did you
get any clarity of like, why were they all wanting
to leave and go to Florida? What was that fantasy
or dream about? Yeah, I think it was.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
It was youth, and you know, you're naive at that age.
I think about a lot of things. But Sparta's a
beautiful place, and it's a small town, and almost all
of the people I met there were so warm and welcoming.
It's not as if like, who could live in Sparta.
It's more just that, you know, if you're a high
school kid or high school aged, you've been born and

(31:43):
raised in this small town of the same people. You
have this curiosity about other places. And I think that
this rumor that they had run off to Florida was
pretty widely accepted by their peers in the beginning, because
you're almost rooting for them. You're like, oh, they went,
they left, they did something different, that's an adventure. They're
on an adventure. Something that stuck out to me about

(32:06):
this is that when Aaron and Jeremy went missing, so
they're lasting April third, there's not this sort of April fourth,
April fifth, call to action in the community. There's not
this moment of Aaron and Jeremy are missing, we need
to find them.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
It was a.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Much slower process than that. They were sort of accepted
to maybe have run away, but then the parents concern
was pretty evident, and then they're sort of calling friends
and trying to see what's happening. But there was not
this like immediate sense of Okay, we need to have
people working on this case. And so that was a

(32:42):
really hard thing for me to understand looking back, But
after having worked on the case, you realize, you know,
this is a small town. They don't have a ton
of resources to be working with. And it was at
a time before people having cell phones. You know, in
Sparta they talked about some of the kids.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Had pagers, wow in two thousand.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
In two thousand and the police department, the sheriff's office
at that point I believe had one computer.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
So it wasn't like they were not working on it.
I think it was just a very different time in
sort of the expectation of what happens when a kid
doesn't come home from a party. There's also if these
are kids who maybe have done that once before. Aaron
had run away before for I don't even know how
long it lasted. I think she drove to Nashville or something.

(33:29):
I don't quite remember, but you kind of accepted in
the beginning, and so Rosa remembers getting a call from
Aaron's mother saying have you seen her? And she doesn't
remember when that was. She thinks it was within maybe
a week of Aaron Oka and Jeremy going missing. And
she said when she got that call was the first
time she thought maybe something is wrong. And I think

(33:51):
that really points sort of to where things start to
go south in this investigation. And it's not one person's fault.
I think it was many facts. But Rosa says, no,
she hasn't seen Aaron. She hasn't seen her since. I
think it was the day before the party, because Rosa
didn't go to the party. But you know, we know
that that they were there because Ronnie Bechchel, Jeremy's dad,

(34:12):
spoke with him and at the party.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
He was at the party. Did he know that he
was with Aaron? He knew he was with Aaron. Okay.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
And so I ended up speaking with an investigator by
the name of Chris Isam who had moved on from
the Sheriff's office, but told me what he could tell
me about the case, and I eventually learned another few
names of people who were at the party, and one
of those names is Becky. Becky did not agree to
record a conversation, but she did agree to speak with
me and she said, yeah, they were there, and you're

(34:40):
going to hear a lot about Bubba Cole's house and
how it was this place where people were drinking and
using drugs, but actually we were just hanging out. Maybe
there was some alcohol, shouldn't have been doing that and driving,
for sure, but this was not this sort of like dark,
maybe shady scene that I had been hearing about. It
was just a place people were hanging out and you know,

(35:01):
being teenagers. And so she said, yeah, they did. They
left around ten and we didn't see him again. And
so I'm like, okay, so I know they left it ten,
but I know they were there at nine. And I
said where were they going? And she didn't really know.
She thought maybe they were going to pick up Aaron's
brother in town somewhere. So Aaron had a little brother,

(35:21):
has a little brother, And I had called Aaron's family
members over the course of this process and they were
unwilling to speak with me. And that's okay, I totally
get it. It goes back to that moment of yeah, this
is like, what could be more painful than not knowing
where your daughter is? Yeah, and you don't know me,
and I have no prior work to show for myself,

(35:44):
so of course accepted that. But something that I found
really tricky to sort of work through during this project
was that Ronda Bechdel was her married name, rondal Ledbetter.
Once she and Ronnie divorce, so Jeremy's mother, she was
frequently pressing law enforcement for answers, frequently reaching out to
Aaron's family to sort of join forces, and her perception,

(36:08):
based off of what her friends and family told me,
was that Aaron's family was not operating the same way.
They really didn't want to talk to her about it.
And I don't know why that is to this day,
because they didn't speak with me. And again, I just
that's what I was told from those who were really
close to Ronda. But Ronda never believed Jeremy ran away.
Ronda always believed something happened gotcha.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
And was there some kind of suspicion put on perhaps
Aaron's parents because of this, like unwillingness to discuss it
or talk or collaborate or Yeah, I wouldn't call it suspicion.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
I think it was more of just a you know,
it's an intimidating thing to ask someone about something that's
so painful when they don't want to talk about it.
And you know, they certainly spoke with law enforcement about it.
It's not like they were uncooperative in those terms. But
their response was very different than Jeremy's family when I

(37:04):
called them got it, and I get it, but it
was it was hard. They were people who I really
wanted to speak with and couldn't, and so it took many,
many months, And eventually Aaron's brother and I exchanged a
few text messages and he told me in those text messages,
he said, around ten o'clock, Aaron came and picked me
up from the pool hall in town and took me

(37:26):
home and Jeremy was in the car with her. I'm like, okay,
So they left the party, they went to the pool hall,
then they go to Aaron's house, and this was the
first I had ever placed them anywhere outside of Bubba's
house after ten pm. Now, mind you, at this point
I hadn't seen the police report, and I had spoken
with numerous members of law enforcement about it, and one

(37:47):
of them went to Florida literally looking for them twice.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Wow. They fully were exploring that theory.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
So yeah, that was kind of where their head was at.
So you hadn't seen the police report at this time.
But if I'm remembering what you said, this is different
from like the information that was in the news article
that you had read, because that information had said they
were last seen at the party, right right, And so
they were not last seed at the party at that point.
I know their last scene at Aaron's house. Okay, their
lasting at Aaron's house by her little brother who she's

(38:17):
dropping off there, and Jeremy's in the car with her.
So I asked him, I said, did they go inside?
You know?

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Did they turn around and leave? He's like, I don't know.
I got out of the car and I went inside,
and that was what I knew. So Becky, who had
been at the party, had told me their plan was
to come back.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Their plan was to come back to the party. So
then I'm sitting there thinking, well, maybe they were last
see to the party, because maybe they went back and
left again. And I'm trying to piece that together, and
it's so many years ago, and people just really didn't
know did I watch them leave a first time? Or
was I watching them leave a second time? But the
person who did know at ten pm they were at

(38:57):
his parents' house was her brother, and so I just
kind of started back from that point and the Florida theory.
To me, it felt very unlikely.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
I'm not a professional investigator by any means, but it's
hard to leave with no money. And Jeremy had a
paycheck waiting for him at Burger King, where he was
working at the time. His parents both agreed would be
very unlikely for him to not pick up his paycheck. So,
if they're not in Florida and they were lasting at

(39:29):
Aaron's house, did something happen at Aaron's house? What's going on?
I actually went to Sparta. I flew there in October
of twenty twenty, and I met up with the guy
that I met on Reddit, who's just.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
The nicest person I know. A small town in Tennessee
to meet up with someone who I met on Reddit, okay, great.
He was actually a producer. He was the nicest person ever.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Drove me all around and I asked him, I said,
can you take me from Bubba Cole's house to Aaron's.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
House where the party was back to Aaron's house where
they were last seen. Yes, and we did.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
And he's like, I think these are the roads you
would take if you lived here in their back roads.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
And how far was it?

Speaker 2 (40:09):
It was miles. It was like a I think a
twenty minute drive. I don't know, okay, of break.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Like it was three houses down or something. Okay, No,
And you know it's dark. Sparta is not a big city.
There's not as much light pollution, so it's pitch black
at the time. We're driving.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
And this sort of eerie moment happens where I'm in
the car with him and a buck comes right down
into the road and he comes to the screeching halt
and I mean, I swear to you this is the
strangest thing. But at that point, because his headlights, you know,
we're on this buck that was like looking right at us.
Just first, well, second, I noticed the water and we're

(40:44):
right by the calf Killer River. So the road is
running alongside the calf Killer River and I'm like, oh,
the calf Killer River. Like he's telling me about it,
and I recalled a moment that law enforcement told me
they searched the river.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
They said, you know, we drugged that river from end
to end. And wow, I'm not discounting it, but I'm like, wow,
this is a really dark road and that it's winding,
and if they were drinking. I don't know, but the
law enforcement said that they looked in the river, right,
They told me they looked in the river, Okay. And
this is where things get murky is that the case

(41:21):
was handed off to different investigators at different times. They
had maybe a different process for record keeping than they
would today, limited ability to use a computer, handwriting things,
It's not as easy to transfer information from one place
to another. So I don't know if maybe someone talked

(41:41):
about looking in the river and didn't or if they
did and didn't find anything. But what ends up happening
is I go back to law enforcement after all of
my research because I want them to go in the
record and talk to me. So I'm like, well, here's
what I found. And I said, I don't think they
were lasting at the party. I think they were lasting
at Aaron's house. At this I'm working on The Opportunist.

(42:01):
I'm very busy, and I'm trying really hard to like
make the most of that job, and I'm dedicating way
less to this project, but I'm still keeping tabs on it.
And all of a sudden I get a call from
that first guy I met on Reddit, and he's like,
you'll never believe it. They're pulling up a car from
the Calfkiller River and it's in nineteen ninety eight Pontiat Grandam,

(42:23):
which is the car Aaron was driving.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Wow. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so I
call the sheriff and he's like, yeah, I'm here right now.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
They're pulling up the car. We haven't looked inside, but
they are pulling up the car. And they were always
very sort of kept me arms length. They never told
me anything. They shouldn't have told me. They were careful
about that. But he did tell me he knew how
hard I had been working on it.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
So Aaron and Jeremy's remains were found in the car.
The sort of suspected what happened in the case is
that she probably lost control of the vehicle while driving
and there were no guardrails at that time in certain
areas and the car went into the water.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Wow. So they found the remains and it was it
was basically no foul play.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
No foul play suspected. The headlights were on, the key
was in the ignition. I believe the radio was on.
I think the windows were I don't remember if the
windows were up or down, but nothing led them to
anything other than this was just an accident.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
So as of twenty twenty two, the last thing I've
seen published about it, and I think still to this
day it's an unsolved case.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
But there's no foul play suspected. Okay. Wow. And what
was people's reactions that you had talked to and looked
into this and how did they feel about having this
finally answered?

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Well, people were really confused about my role in the
carving found which is really limited. Actually, you know, I
placed Aarin and Jeremy at her parents' house, but that
actually had turned out to be something that was in
the place support the whole time, so I wasn't the
only person to know that. I think it was sort

(44:05):
of this game of telephone of they were lasting and
leaving the party, but they had said they would come
back to the party. Did they go back to the
party and leave again? You know, it's confusing, and I
think law enforcement did the best they could, and I
have to give them credit because they were much more
interested in finding Aaron and Jeremy than they were any
perception of like them having ever missed something. They didn't

(44:29):
care about that they wanted them to be found, and
that's not always the case when you're reaching out to
law enforcement. They were so kind to me and were
so professional and answered all my questions. So I did
not find Aaron and Jeremy by any means. The person
who found them is actually a YouTuber and he has
a channel called Exploring with nug and he is a

(44:53):
diver who looks for people who are missing in cars
near bodies of water.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
So he found the case on his own.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
He contacted the sheriff's office, and the sheriff's office then said, actually,
maybe look closer to Aaron's house in the Calfkiller River.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Wow. Okay, So that's just what he does, is he
dives into bodies of water looking for cars and missing
people or people that might be.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, there's a whole host of people doing this now
on YouTube and binding people who have been missing for decades. Wow,
because there's just no trace of them, my gosh.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
And so he went out to Sparta and he took
his boat into the river and used sonar and then
dove down and matched the license plate to Aaron's car.
And it looks like it's parked at the bottom of
the river, which we can watch the video.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, how I found out is.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
When they were pulling the car up, people were calling
me because they thought I had something to do with that,
which I didn't. And then it was so strange to
watch this case that no one had heard of or
been working on in the media, at least in the
New York Times the next day or the next few days.
It happened so quickly, and then it was like it
was international news. Wow, probably more national news, but it

(46:11):
was published everywhere, and it was just amazing to see
so their remains were found and they were buried. I
think in twenty twenty two. It's a tragedy. It's a
huge loss in Rhonda, Jeremy's mother. She didn't get the
answers before she passed. We'll put a link to that
video of them pulling up the car in the show notes.
I never had any contact with this person who operates

(46:32):
this YouTube channel. He did this all on his own,
but I'm just amazed and grateful he was able to
find them.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah, seriously, I'm so glad that it was answered for
the people who had been wandering what happened to them
for twenty years. It's such a long time.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, by the time they were discovered, it was almost
twenty one years. And you know, I met so many
great people in Sparta. I met this guy Jordan and
this other guy Chet, who were so close with Jeremy.
Jeremy was an aspiring rapper. They had this music group.
I think it was called the Little Town Lokstas. I'm
not really I don't exactly remember, but just the most
like kind people. And I went out to Jordan's house

(47:11):
and it was this really kind of somber moment because
he had built this like beautiful, picturesque white country farmhouse
on this stunning piece of land in Sparta. His daughter's there,
his dogs, his wife, you know, he's a grown man
at this point, and we're talking about Jeremy, who was seventeen,
and it's just sort of in everyone's memory, just always seventeen.
And I think it hit me in that moment how

(47:32):
much time had passed. And it just solidified my interest
in doing this kind of work, because even though I
didn't solve the case, someone feeling heard goes a long way.
In podcasting, I think it's really helpful. I think you
get more authentic storytelling, and it also just really connects
you to people. And these people's friend had been missing

(47:54):
over twenty years, and I think it mattered to them
that someone cared to look into it.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Absolutely, And it's also I think with like missing persons
cases and unsolved cases, sometimes just having attention back on it,
you never know what peace led to, what peace you
were minding. Law enforcement. Again, I really think that they
were last seen at Aaron's parents' house. You know, could
haven't you know, been fresh in his mind when this

(48:21):
other guy calls, Like, it's just I think people, I
mean not everybody, of course, but I know that there's
people that really appreciate having that attention on a case
because they're looking for answers and it's great when they
can actually get them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Absolutely, I mean I spoke with Sheriff Steve Page and
Sparta and he was like just so kind and wanting
anyone who was interested to look into it. He was
obviously not the sheriff when this all took place, and
you know, really understood the challenges that his department was
facing back then. And just like he took my call,

(48:58):
he took this YouTuber's call and accepted help. And they
were found and that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you were able to tell
us about this on this podcast because you had worked
on this for so long and it had been a
case that was so close to you and important to you.
You know, was solved and you had moved on with
your life and didn't end up putting any episodes out
about it. But you've heard some of them. I have,
and they're really good. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm glad

(49:26):
that you were able to talk about it on the show. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
It was an incredible learning experience for me, and ultimately,
I think it made me a better producer. We're going
to wrap up today's episode by telling you what we're
listening to or reading right now. It could be a book,
a podcast, or a show, just something that has captured

(49:50):
our attention.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Great. So, the thing that I want to talk about
is this book that I actually read last year. I
came out twenty twenty four. I actually listen to it.
It's a good book to listen to, and it's called Sociopath,
a memoir by Patrick Gagney. I think that's how you
say her name. And it was an easy listen, super fascinating,

(50:17):
easy to get through. I have thought about this book
so many times since I read it. I love to read,
but like a lot of times I read a book,
i'll think about it a little bit. This book I've
thought about so often, and part of it is the
work that we do in true crime. But I cannot
recommend it enough. It is written by a sociopath, So Patrick.

(50:40):
She's a clinical psychologist with a PhD and also a
diagnosed sociopath. Wow. The memoir is just her life story.
It helped me understand sociopaths or what it would mean
to be a sociopath so much more. I still don't
understand it. It's very difficult to really understand what that
would be like. It's such a different experience than what

(51:02):
I experience. But sociopath is a word that's thrown around
so often, right in true crime. So and so's a sociopath,
So and so's a sociopath. We've had conversations around this
of like, how do we use this word? Maybe let's
not try to use it unless someone has actually been diagnosed,
because we actually don't know if they are they aren't.
I want there to be so much more research done
about sociopaths, and I suspect there will be, but there

(51:25):
really hasn't been a ton. So Patrick talks in this
book about her upbringing. She grew up in a loving,
healthy family who was well resourced. She was you know,
went to really good schools, did really well in school,
was really smart, and had parents who like listened to
her and really tried to help her. Like she had
a really good upbringing. You know. I think sometimes there's

(51:47):
misconceptions of someone's a sociopath because they had this horrible
thing happened to them or whatnot, Like it's this result
of trauma, right, and her whole sort of the thing
that she poses in the book book is that it's not.
It is more like a neurodivergency. And she walks through

(52:08):
being a young kid and watching her mom like try
to teach her and her sister like life lessons and
teach them empathy, and she remembers from a young age
feeling like she really did not get it. She didn't understand.
She could observe people around her understanding this, and from
a young age was very clear that she was different,

(52:30):
and so started to feel really isolated and like no
one understood her. And when she was honest about her
you know, feelings or thoughts. She often got the response
from her parent, teacher classmates that there was something wrong
with the way that she was thinking and feeling and
interacting with the world. So she talks about that feeling

(52:50):
of being perceived as problematic even from a very young age,
sort of played with and intensified some of the behavioral
problems that she then went on to display for much
of her life. I mean, she talks about wanting to
cause other people pain as a release from these feelings

(53:11):
that she's having, or lack of feelings or like distance.
And it's interesting, though, this desire to sort of cause
someone pain if you can't feel for them. I know,
it's so hard to wrap my mind around, which is
why I loved this book because some of the concepts

(53:31):
they're so abstract. Okay, sociopaths don't feel empathy, they don't
feel learned emotions. A lot of our emotions are learned emotions,
like empathy. She still feels happy, sad, you know, emotions
that you're born with, but like, what does that actually
look like in a life? How does that play out?
And so she through the book takes the reader on
a journey where she's talking about this struggle where she

(53:54):
wants to be a good person. She wants to be
a contributing member of society, she wants to get married
and have children and all of these things, but it's
so difficult for her because she sees the world and
experiences the world so completely differently from the people around her.
I think it's such a fascinating read. Since I've read it,

(54:14):
I think about it so often when consuming other true
crime podcasts or books or documentaries. I'm always like, is
that person a sociopath? And then it kind of gives
you this different lens. It doesn't justify anything that someone
is doing, especially when they're committing crimes or hurting other people.
But I'll wrap it up by saying, you know, Patrick

(54:35):
says in the book that she wrote this book for
other sociopaths because from her perspective, and she became a
PhD and studied this because she was looking for answers
to understand herself and there were none. The answer was like, well,
sociopaths should be in prison, and she's like, so that's
the only option for my life. I don't believe that,

(54:55):
And so she wrote this sort of like for other sociopaths.
To offer them ideas about how you could exist in
a different kind of way. And if you think about it,
if we all thought about it or approached it as
this is a neurodivergency, how would we as a society
try to help integrate those people into society in a

(55:16):
healthy way as opposed to just not understanding them isolating them,
Maybe we would have fewer serial killers. You know, I
don't know, it's interesting to think about. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
And also, like you said, so mind mending because she
has this emotional pull to help other sociopaths.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
Yeah, it's like a purpose for her. And it's really
interesting the way she talks about emotions and feeling And
it's so hard to sort of understand that because she
is married now, but like she doesn't feel love in
the same way that non sociopaths feel love. But that
doesn't mean she doesn't care about her husband. Wow, isn't

(55:55):
that wild to think about her husband? Must just be
such an emotionally grounded person. Yeah, no, that's great. I'm
going to check that out. Patia, what have you been
listening to or reading? Uh, I've been watching or watching,
I've been watching watching, I have been rewatching. Actually a
show called Accused, Guilty or Innocent. That is an an

(56:16):
E show that I've watched on a streaming platform. It's
a really incredible show because of the unique perspective, which
is that they're taking you through a criminal trial from
the perspective of the defendant, and that defendant, you know,
is saying that they are innocent in some way, shape
or form. Maybe it's that it was a vehicular accident

(56:38):
that caused death. But they're fighting for their freedom, is
what they're doing. And it really sheds light on something
you don't really see in a lot of headlines. You know,
for example, if someone dies in a car accident, there's
understandably not a lot of sympathy in that article to
the driver who is thought to have caused the accident.
But you really see these people for so much more, like,

(57:01):
you know, what are they going to have to leave
behind if they go to jail for what happened? And
do they really deserve that? And are they really a
danger to society? And you're really asking all these questions
as you're watching it, like, Wow, everyone wants justice when
something terrible happens, but what is also the cost of
that and what does justice bring to the victim's family,

(57:25):
and what additional destruction does someone going to jail, Cause,
you know, someone could be facing their family being displaced
because they no longer have that income, or someone could
be watching their son who thought they were doing the
right thing now spending his adult life in jail. It's

(57:46):
a hard show to watch in moments, but it is
a really well done, I think, docu series. So it's
people who have been accused of a crime. What kind
of crimes? Are they? Heavy crimes?

Speaker 2 (57:59):
You know? Okay is one that you'll see in a
few episodes. There's a mother on the first season who
is accused of purposefully causing harm to her son having
Munchausens by proxy.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
Wow. And when you're hearing her defense, you know they're
saying things like, well, there's a doctor at this Texas
hospital who is a specialist in Munchausens, and so what
does that mean for the amount of people who are
being diagnosed with it there?

Speaker 2 (58:26):
And how does why is it geographically a higher percentage
you know in this area? Well, because they're specialists, and
you're really you really start thinking about that. One thing
I wish we had with this show is follow up episodes.
You know, I was particularly interested in her episode because
I want to know, like, after her trial happens, what

(58:49):
is the result for her child? Does he become healthier?
You know, I didn't. I haven't seen any follow up
to it. But it's an interesting show, and I think
a perspective you don't often get.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
I love that. That sounds really good. I also love
shows that take you through a case or a trial
in detail. I think that's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Yeah, it's like it happens slow, but it happens fast
aause you're watching the clock on your own freedom while
it can sometimes be years, your life is sort of
in the balance.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
And yeah, go watch it. I will. What a great recommendation. Well,
that concludes our first episode of The Knife off Record.
Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
We'll be back next week. If you have a story
for us, we would love to hear it. Our email
is The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com, or you
can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or
a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
by me Hannah Smith and me Patia Eaton.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
the Airport Artwork five and sl Black. Executive produced by
Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.