July 31, 2025 • 54 mins
This week we bring you two crime stories in collaboration with Mandy and Melissa from Moms and Mysteries. Hannah and Patia discuss the killing of Richard Challen by his wife, Sally Challen. Then, Mandy and Melissa share the wild true story of the teenage serial thief known as the “Barefoot Bandit.” Plus, Patia and Hannah have recommendations.
Links:
Moms and Mysteries podcast: https://www.momsandmysteries.com/
David Challen’s book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/93021229-the-unthinkable
Recommendations:
There’s Something Wrong with Aunt Diane
Love Has Won
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
(00:21):
Welcome to The Knife off record. I'm Patia Eton, I'm
Hannah Smith. Before we get into this episode real quick,
if you are enjoying the show, first of all, thank
you for listening. But would you do us a favor
and go and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen. It really does help us so much.
We're a new show and we're still trying to get
the word out, so if you like what we're doing,
(00:42):
it would just mean a lot to us. Thank you
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to a friend if you think they would like it.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, and you can also follow us on Instagram where
we post clips and when we can, we respond to
questions and like to update listeners, so make sure you
follo at The Knife podcast on Instagram and Blue Sky.
You can also send us an email at The Knife
at exactlyrightmedia dot com. This week we have a collaboration
with Mandy and Melissa from Moms and Mysteries. Moms and Mysteries,
(01:15):
formerly known as Moms and Murder, is a true crime
podcast hosted by Mandy and Melissa, two friends who do
deep dives into a new case each week. It's conversational
in tone and heavy on levity. You'll really enjoy their
original takes on both well known cases and lesser known
true crime stories.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We had such a good time doing this episode with them.
They are pros. They've been making their podcast for over
eight years now, which is amazing. And Melissa has another
podcast I want to shout out. She launched it in
twenty twenty one. It's called Criminality and they dive into
the true crimes of reality stars, which sounds really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We could definitely get into that.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, So in this episode, we are going to bring
you two crime stories. Patien I brought a crime story
and Mandy and Melissa also brought one. Patia and I
cover the murder of Richard Chalin and Mandy and Melissa
talk about the Barefoot Bandit. They're really different stories, but
both pretty fascinating. And again, we just loved meeting Mandy
(02:19):
and Melissa. So let's get into the episode.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
All right.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So the story that we have today is the story
of Sally Chalin. I'm going to start the story in
twenty ten. Sally, whose real name is Georgina by the way,
but she goes by Sally, and Richard Chalin had been
married for thirty one years. They had two sons who
were both grown, both in their twenties. In twenty ten,
(02:48):
Sally was fifty six years old and Richard was sixty one.
They lived in Surrey, England, which is southwest of London,
and about a year prior, in two thousand and nine,
Sally had actually moved out of their family home. Their
youngest son, David, was living with Sally and their oldest
son was living on his own, so Richard was the
(03:09):
only one living in the house that they had lived
in for years and raised their sons in. And the
reason for this was that they were going to get divorced,
but they actually had They were actually in the midst
of reconciling. So on the morning of August tenth, two
thousand and ten, twenty ten, Sally went over to their
(03:31):
family home where Richard was living, with the idea that
they were going to spend the day cleaning out the
garage getting ready to sell the house. And one of
the ideas they had was they were going to use
some of this money from the house sale to go
on a trip to Australia together, but before they started
cleaning out the house, they wanted to make breakfast, so
Sally actually left went to the store to go buy
(03:54):
bacon and eggs to make breakfast. She would later say
that she had the suspicion that Richard told her to
go to the store to buy these ingredients to try
to get her out of the house, and she was
suspicious about this, so when she got back, she checked
his phone and it showed a phone call between Richard
(04:16):
and this woman, Susan Wilkie. This was a person that
Sally was already suspicious of that she had googled the
day before, and it turns out Richard had met this woman,
Susan Wilkie on a social networking website called Dinner Dates,
and when Sally asked Richard about this, he responded with,
don't question me. So Sally made breakfast. Richard sat down
(04:41):
at the table to eat this breakfast, and when he did,
Sally took a hammer from her purse and hit him
over the head more than twenty times until he was
almost dead. She then stuffed a teatowel into his mouth
to make sure he was dead. She wrapped his body
in some old curtains and wrote a note and left
(05:04):
the note on his body that read I Love you, Sally,
and then she left. She went back to the house
where she was living. The next morning she got up,
she drove her twenty three year old son David to work,
and then she left Surrey and drove seventy five miles
south to Beachy Head in East Sussex, England, which is
(05:26):
on the southern coast and has these massive cliffs that
overlook the ocean. It's beautiful from pictures I looked at online,
but sadly it's also a very common place for people
to go and their life by jumping off the cliffs.
And actually in twenty ten, the Wall Street Journal listed
it as one of the among the top three most
(05:48):
common suicide spots in the world. And if you go there,
there are signs with phone number. With the phone number
too the Samaritans, which is a charity aimed at providing
emotional support to people, and they're available twenty four to seven,
and the local community and the police are also aware
of this, so they're sort of on the lookout for
people that might be trying to do this. Reportedly, Sally
(06:11):
called her cousin and confessed to killing Richard and said
she planned to jump from the cliffs, but the police
were called and it took three hours of them talking
to her to convince her to come away from the ledge,
and she was taking into custody and charge with the
murder of Richard Chalen. The police discovered his body around
(06:31):
one pm on Sunday, which was the next day, and
a post mortem exam that was conducted determined his cause
of death to be severe blunt trauma to the head.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So Sally immediately admits to having killed Richard, and so
she's taken into custody at that point, and this is
August of twenty ten, and so during her time in custody,
she is assessed by two different psychologists forensic psychologists, and
(07:03):
the first one of those he will get into her trial,
but he said that he did not conclude that Sally
had been suffering from any mental disorders or personality disorders.
Then a second forensic psychologist also assessed Sally and his
conclusion was different. He said that he believed she was
(07:26):
suffering from a depressive disorder. He also noted that Sally
told him about sexual and physical abuse by Richard that
included that Richard would rape her as a form of punishment,
and that she hoped that when he did this it
would sort of make him happy and make him love her.
(07:46):
And she's a woman in distress. So this trial takes
place in June of twenty eleven, and the trial takes
place over seven days, and during her trial, Sally is
portrayed by the Crown as constantly checking Richard's phone and email,
being jealous and possessive, and having said at one point,
if I can't have him, then no one can. And
(08:09):
the jury was also told that Sally had been stalking
Richard online, spying on him, listening to his voicemails. It
was really a picture of a scorned lover, a woman
who refused to move on from her failed marriage. And
Sally's defense relied partially on something called diminished responsibility, which means, yes,
(08:33):
she's saying that she killed him, but her responsibility for
killing him cannot be murder because she was experiencing things
in the marriage that were taking away her capacity to
think clearly. So Sally's defense during her trial is saying,
you know, is introducing this concept of diminished responsibility. They're
(08:55):
basically asserting that although Sally broke the law by killing Richard,
her mental capacity was impaired and this ought to protect
her from full criminal responsibility. And the goal here is
that Sally doesn't end up with a murder conviction, but
instead manslaughter, because manslaughter carries a much lighter sentence and
(09:17):
they felt it was appropriate given what she experienced during
her marriage to Richard. Unfortunately, Sally is convicted by a
unanimous jury in June twenty eleven after only eleven hours,
and they convict her of murder. So she appeals her conviction,
but it was upheld. The only thing that comes her
way is that her sentence is reduced from a minimum
(09:40):
of twenty two years to a minimum of nineteen years served.
And the entire time that this is going on, ever
since Sally is charged at all, she has the support
of her family and other people who are standing in
solidarity with Sally as a victim of domestic abuse. You know,
(10:00):
we've learned so much about domestic abuse since twenty ten
and have so much more language around what that can
really mean. And so as her legal team is preparing
for another appeal, this whole other picture of Sally's marriage
begins to emerge.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Through interviews with her attorney. She starts to sort of
open up and we learn about like what was actually
going on inside their marriage, and you know, it goes
all the way back to the beginning. And actually Sally
was only fifteen years old when they first met and
(10:40):
Richard was twenty two, you know, so she was still
basically a child baby. Yeah, yeah, and there basically there's
accounts that you know, he was controlling, like pretty much
right off the bat. He would control like how she
acted and wanted to control sort of like who she
(11:02):
talked to. And she was still in school, but she
would stop by his apartment after school to clean and
cook for him.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
You know, this was like I think this was like
nineteen seventy or something, so definitely different times, but still
pretty alarming. And she got pregnant at seventeen and ended
up having a late term abortion. Her older brothers brought
her to have this done, and they then confronted Richard
(11:34):
about this. You know, it's like protective older brothers, and
he supposedly said like kind of like shrugged it off
and said it could have been anybody's like baby, Oh gosh.
She also told her attorney that around this time, like
around like age seventeen ish, she confronted Richard because she
found out that he was still like sleeping with other women,
(11:55):
and he dragged her down the stairs and threw her
out of the apartment. Said that she was basically afraid
from them to throughout their whole relationship of like confronting
him or pushing too hard in case he might react
physically again like that, they ended up getting married. Her
mom Sally's mom never liked him, didn't want them to
get married, but people say, like she just really like
(12:16):
seemed to love him and always hoped that things would
get better. He was really into cars. He would it
end up going on to start a car dealership and
was very successful and like made pretty good money. Their home,
their family home in Surrey in twenty ten, was estimated
to be worth about one million pounds. But you know,
(12:37):
things didn't quite you know, things didn't get better. Neighbors
and friends would later say that he would often criticize
her in public and like in social settings, often commenting
on her weight. You know that she was she did
all the cooking, all the cleaning, took care of all
the household stuff for them while he worked, so she
was mostly a homemaker while the kids were little. But
(12:58):
then when their youngest turned thirteen, she went and got
an admin job. But then her husband, Richard, then required
her to use her salary that she got from her
job to pay for all of the household expenses, and
he kind of kept his money for himself and he
would buy himself expensive cars and watches and go to
Grand Prix events. Their youngest son, David, ever since his mom,
(13:22):
you know, was arrested and charged, has become an advocate
for his mother's release, and he recently wrote a book
called The Unthinkable, A Story of control, Violence and My Mother,
and he talks a lot about what he observed of
his parents growing up. You know. He talked about his
dad being this sort of like looming presence, and he
(13:45):
really he watched as his dad would criticize his mother
and come home and just criticize the food that she cooked.
He said that beyond that, his dad was very controlling,
like very controlling of things like the television, even when
he was gone all day at work. He didn't want
his mom or the boys watching TV because he said
it would like diminish the life of the television.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Oh my gosh, what that's like taking You know, you
always hear about like dad things, you know, like they
always wanted to shut off the lights or they always
want you to do this, but like not watching TV
because you're scared that it's going to diminish the life
of the TV is a new extreme of just dadism.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Totally yeah, totally different than like shut the door, don't
air condition the whole neighborhood, right, I've heard that before, clastic,
but yeah, it was just like this like pattern of
him being incredibly controlling. And he also controlled who Sally
could be friends with. So one time she was like
cooking in the kitchen. She was going to host a
(14:47):
new friend that she'd met, and Richard didn't like this,
so he just like threw the food across the room
and said, well, I guess you can't have her over anymore.
So there's definitely a pattern of him controlling her, isolation her,
not wanting her to have friends. And then it sounds
like he also was continually having affairs like that happened
(15:07):
when they first met, and it sounds like it never
really stopped. Certain times Sally seemed to sort of be
believing him, and other times she would question him. Their son, David,
remembers when he was around eighteen that he found out
about some affairs his dad was having, and he even
confronted his dad and he said his dad just would
never hear any of it. He wasn't receptive to anyone
(15:30):
else's feedback. And over and over, anytime Sally would question
him about something in their marriage, he would say the
same thing. He would say, don't question me, which was
interesting because that's like the last thing he said to her,
you know, before she killed him. In two thousand and four,
Richard and Sally they went to Australia for a family's wedding.
Richard brother lived there with his sister in law, and
(15:53):
even his family remembers seeing him interact with Sally and
thinking that something was wrong. They didn't like the way
he was treating her. Reportedly, he just only wanted to
dance with all the young women at the wedding and
wouldn't dance with Sally. Seemed to be like just to
embarrass her or something, and Richard's sister in law spoke
with her at that time and asked her how things
(16:16):
were going, and she said she told her if I
left Richard, he would make my life hell. He was
also charged with fraud in two thousand and six. He
owned a Ferrari which cost him ninety two thousand pounds,
and he had taken it to an F one track
in Belgium and wrecked it, and instead of reporting it,
(16:36):
he shipped it back to Surrey and tried to make
an insurance claim saying that it was hit by a truck.
So that's wild, but they figured out what was going on.
He was charged with fraud by two thousand and nine. Sally,
you know, her sons were older, and her son David specifically,
was very like supportive of her trying to get out
(16:58):
of this marriage. She had finally left Richard. She had
a small amount of family inheritance which she used to
buy a small house a few blocks away, and you know,
she had finally done it. I mean she was in
her fifties at this point, and she had started dating
him when she was fifteen years old, So that's like,
you know, her whole life basically. Yeah, And according to
(17:21):
her friends and family, it just was really difficult. She
couldn't really figure out how to do things without him.
She was distraught, and soon she was hoping to get
back together with him. Richard, on the other hand, I
think used this as a way to manipulate her further
and said that he would start to reconcile with her
only under the circumstances that she agreed to get legally divorced.
(17:46):
He wanted to give her two hundred thousand pounds, which
would be far less than she would actually be entitled to,
and she had to agree in writing that when they
went out in public, she wouldn't talk with strangers and
she would never interrupt him when he.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Talked I hate this guy.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, So she, you know, agreed to it, but she
was also suspicious that maybe he was just using this
as an excuse to get legally divorced from her and
keep most of their assets under the guys that they
were going to reconcile. So that was sort of the
situation leading up to that day. In August of twenty ten,
her divorce attorney said that she had started and then
(18:25):
stopped divorce proceedings thirteen times, so there was a lot
of just like indecision, and she had become obsessed with
trying to find out if he was still cheating on her.
You know, sounds like she was hoping that he had changed,
but also wondering if he was just still doing the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
As Sally dives deeper into what was going on in
her marriage with her legal team, through this appeals process,
it becomes clear the extent of the abuse that she
was experiencing. And so in February twenty nineteen, which you know,
she was convicted a murder back in June of twenty eleven,
she's been imprisoned this entire time. In February of twenty nineteen,
(19:13):
she has a new legal team and it consists of
her solicitor, whose name is Harriet Wistrick, and she's actually
the director of the Center for Women's Justice in the UK.
Their mission is to hold the state accountable and challenge
discrimination in the justice system around male violence against women
and girls. She also has a woman named Claire Waite
(19:36):
on her side who is her trial attorney, and her
practice really dives into murder, manslaughter, sexual offenses, and serious
violence in the context of domestic homicide. So these two
attorneys team up for Sally's defense and they get her
appeal seen by a three judge panel and part of
(19:58):
What comes out during that appeal is that there's this
new term called coercive control that has come to light,
and it really speaks to honing in on why Sally
had that diminished responsibility that her defense said she had
way back in twenty eleven. And there's an American professor
named Evan Stark who never assessed Sally personally, but can
(20:21):
really speak to this term of course of control. So
he actually spoke during her appeal and he is quoted
as saying that course of control was designed to subjucate
and dominate, not merely to hurt. It achieves compliance by
making victims afraid, depriving them of their rights, resources and
liberties without which they cannot defend themselves, escape refused demands,
(20:44):
or resist. It produces a hostage like condition of entrapment.
And at the time of her trial, he says it
was not widely understood. So these judges, you know, are
going to determine if she's going to spend another ten
plus years in prison. And outside the courthouse there's people
holding signs Free Sally. Her sons are still there standing
(21:06):
by her side. You know, as Hannah mentioned, people who
were on Richard's side of the family had even witnessed
the abuse. After this appeals process, Sally Wins and the
crown that had initially convicted her wanted a retrial. They
didn't get it is her charge was reduced from murder
to manslaughter, and so she was released because she had
(21:28):
already served that time. Her manslaughter sentence would have been
over nine years, which she had already then served, and
so she was released. And her son, who Hannah mentioned,
said it was just an incredible experience to watch his
mom walk out a free woman and for people to
understand that she wasn't this, you know, cruel murderer. She
(21:51):
was a woman who was experiencing course of control and
didn't know way out. And I think also learning so
much about her history and this being her first relationship
from when she's fifteen, it's like that, I mean, you
don't know anything else. I can see why she filed
so many times and then trying to reconcile. It's like
(22:12):
your whole self worth is tied up in this person
because you don't know anything different.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
She's only been an adult with him, that's her whole
adult life. But it makes me think of like you
do hear those relationships like twenty something fifteen, and you
have to wonder, like how much of that is because
I mean, obviously there's laws against it, but how much
of that is because they are just looking for someone
to be able to control and manipulate, even if that
(22:39):
doesn't seem like their intention, Like there's really no reason
a twenty two year old and a fifteen year old
should be getting together. That's again a baby, Like that's
just a person starting their life, so.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Totally real and it's unreal. And in the wake of
her appeal, this term coercive control, they're realizing, Okay, this
applies to the case of these other women who are
imprisoned on these murder charges because we didn't have an
understanding of domestic abuse and course of control like you know,
at the time of their trial, like we do right now.
(23:12):
And so there were successful appeals following Sally's successful appeal
because of this sort of ability to convey to the
judges what she was actually experiencing.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Oh wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
That is such a wild story, not one that I
can personally relate to. I only can relate to the
part of the story of meeting your spouse very young.
I was seventeen when I met my husband. We're actually
about to celebrate our twenty year together in this anniversary
next week. But I relate to the feeling of just
like not knowing any other anything different. You know, whenever
(23:47):
you don't know, you don't know. Even if you know
that you don't want to be in the situation you're in,
it's really scary to think about leaving that situation and
going off into something that you don't even know. You know,
at least the devil you know is better than the
one you don't or whatever the phrase is. You know,
you kind of know what you're into with what you've
been used to, but if you leave and go off
on your own, you don't know really what you're getting into.
(24:09):
So you can see how that would be really scary
for someone who got into that type of relationship when
they were only fifteen years old.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
It's just really hard, especially like living under this threat
like he's going to make her life hell if she
divorces him, and it's like, okay, well what does that
mean because my life was already so terrible with you,
right right, so scary?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
How could it be worse?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Yeah, So this week's story feels a little like a movie.
Like if we told you this was a Netflix plot line,
you'd probably believe us, but you'd still be like, well,
maybe maybe not. I'm not sure. So we're talking about
this lanky teenager from a small island town who escapes
from a halfway house and goes on the run. But
(24:50):
not just any run. This kid steals cars, he breaks
into homes, he hacks computers, he flies actual airplanes that
he taught himself how to fly, and he learned all
of this on you Tube and he does it all.
This part is unfortunate. Barefoot have you.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Guys, Melissa hate that part.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I don't care how good his feet are, anybody's feet,
I don't want to see them. But have you guys
heard of Colton Harris Moore, the Barefoot Bandit?
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I am not.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Oh, this is such a treat. I'm so excited to
be bringing.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
This to you.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
What a big day for us. So Colton Harrismore, he
is six foot five, two hundred pounds by the time
he reaches his full Internet legend status. So he is
someone that lives in the woods. He's slipped through police traps,
He's somehow captured the imagination of thousands of people who
were rooting for him online. Think like Luigi that we
(25:45):
just had going through the news like Mandion like that
kind of a hype though, and people following his story
like when Facebook was still kind of early days and stuff.
But as wild and as me worthy as his cases,
it's also sad and messy because he wasn't some kind
of anti hero or anything. He was just a teenager
who has been failed by really every system in his life.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah. So Colton was born in nineteen ninety one and
he grew up in Camano Island, Washington. So this is
a very tight knit island with only about fifteen hundred residents.
So you're thinking, like it's in Washington, woodsy quiet, this
is the kind of place that you really want to
escape to or get away too now, the kind of
place that you're usually running away from. But as we said,
(26:29):
Colton didn't really have the peaceful small town life that
you know, you would expect a child growing up in
this area to have his dad left when he was
just around two or three years old and was in
and out of his life until he finally disappeared for good,
and his mom struggled with addiction and mental health issues.
She reportedly would let Colton just kind of come and
(26:51):
go as he pleased. And that was even during the
height of his crime spree. You know, she was still
allowing him, you know, free access to her home.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
And she would straight up be like, my son was
hungry and he came over, and what do you want
me to do? Not feed them? When the police are like,
you're aid in a betting, you know, a criminal, She's like, right,
so I'm hungry, I'm going to feed him. So she
did not. She was not to be messed with in
this entire story.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
No, So by the time Colton was seven, he had
already been arrested seven years old, which is heartbreaking and
also like what happened, right, I'm sure that's probably what
everyone's thinking, what would a seven year old possibly do? Well,
he didn't hurt anyone, but he would sneak into vacation
(27:35):
homes literally looking for food and shelter. Though, so like
you have this little kid that's breaking and entering into
vacation homes because he's hungry and he wants a place
to rest. So his behavior, though, did escalate over time,
not necessarily because he was a bad person, but literally
it was a means of survival for him. And eventually
(27:56):
he did end up in a juvenile detention center and
then in a halfway house, and that's where things really
took a sharp turn for him.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
So it was just days before his seventeenth birthday that
Colton escaped the halfway house. Not in like a chaotic
middle of the night, you know, running through in slow
motion kind of thing, but more like a very carefully
planned out route through the woods that he knew all
of the woods like he literally grew up there and
in there he was someone who lived in the woods
(28:25):
a lot, and from there he launched one of the
most bizarre and infamous two year crime spreees we have
ever seen. He knows the woods, like I was saying,
better than anyone. He would build a camp, he would
stash his supplies, he'd even set out little hideouts near
the houses that he was targeting, and police would like
randomly stumble into his camps and think they're close to
(28:47):
getting him, but within hours he realizes they've seen it
and he's off to a new place. One thing I
read was like, during this time he was in the woods,
he was like a mile away from his mom, like
he was in a very small area and they could
not catch this kid at all. But it went further,
not just breaking in, you know, stealing food and stuff.
(29:10):
Locals start noticing strange things like their credit cards are
being used online to buy things like bear spray, or
computer hacking software or GPS tools, and of course porn.
He wasn't just stealing random things. He was literally studying, researching,
and upgrading his gear. In one particularly bold move, he
(29:30):
broke into a police station, disabled their alarm system and
was able to make out with a few things. And
another time he broke into a fire station. Here's where
I say he's kind of pretty smart and still an
infrared camera. That way he could scan houses to make
sure no one was in the house before he would
break in. That way, you know, he's just going in
(29:52):
getting what he needs, and he's leaving.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Smart for thinking of having like thermal imaging before you
break in someone's home, just to make sure they're not there.
I appreciate that very much for his safety and the
homeowner as well, but also not really smart to get
one from a fire station just fine.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
So can only imagine how law enforcement felt like he's
breaking into our facilities and we cannot catch him.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
It's got to be but to use our equipment against
us basically like to use you know, like it's it's
all just completely bizarre to even think that a teenager
like was responsible for this whole.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Can I ask a question real quick?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So you had mentioned like, okay, so he's using credit cards.
I'm guessing that's because he's breaking in people's homes and
maybe like taking their wallet or something. And you had
mentioned that he was also buying porn. Did he have
like what was his connectivity as far as city of
like internet access, study of a phone.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
He had a laptop. I don't remember if he had
a phone, but he did have a laptop. Like as
the story goes on, he literally will post pictures of
himself on face Book laying in the woods, and everyone's
trying to figure out where he is. Where he is
I mean, and you'll hear more about the credit card
thing in a minute. It's probably my favorite part of
the story.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
So eventually, by the time he was, you know, in
his teen years, he now has found a partner in
crime for some of his crime adventures. And this was
a friend of his name Harley. So the two of
them started breaking into vacation homes together, and Harley later
said that he was mostly just in it for the cash,
but Colton was always looking for other things, as Melissa
(31:37):
was saying, laptops, credit cards, anything, any tool or anything
that he could get his hands on that might help
him stay one step ahead of the authorities. They would
even find keys to cars and they would go take
these cars on joy ride, so grand theft auto. Now
they're just all the crime stacking up. But in a
weird twist of conscience or maybe chaos. They would sometimes
(31:59):
return a car full of gas cleaned and park it back.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
And then you imagine coming home and thinking someone's messed
with my car. But I have a full tank of
gas and they cleaned it. I don't know that I
would call the police. I'd be like, this was the
you know, the car Angel.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Car cleaning Ferry visited me.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I'm one of these owners of a vacation home. This
is like the lore of the island, and I want to.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Break in, right, I want to be next no kidding.
So it was around this time that residents started calling
Colton teen Houdini, which I feel like is very apt
considering that they really could not find him, and he
would appear and disappear and just continue to confuse law
enforcement every step of the way. So as words spread
(32:44):
about this barefoot bandit teen genius that was just slipping
through the cracks and you know, was not able to
be captured. That was how kind of this legend was born.
And there were really early YouTube videos about it. Facebook
fan group started popping up. There were even people making
and selling t shirts with his name or you know,
(33:05):
barefoot bandit like some funny like it was just a
big joke, but it really wasn't a joke. So that's
where it's like very ironic.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
So the barefoot thing, though, he was doing this all
the time in the woods everywhere. I don't know that
it was necessarily he didn't like shoes, or he liked
his feet, or he had a thing with me, I
don't know, but it was very like obvious everywhere he
went because they would see his footprints. One time, he
even pours I think flower somewhere like on the ground
and walks through it so they could see it. Like
he was leaving his calling card everywhere, and unfortunately his
(33:37):
calling card his feet.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I can't yuck.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I know it's about after all of the links that
he went to.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
I know, I know, but he really he The thing
with him is he really does think he's smarter than everyone,
and in some ways he is smarter than a lot
of people. He has like a will, a determination, like
he's doing this for himself, and he hasn't had a
lot even education, He really hasn't had a.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Whole lot hurting anyone. And that's the other part about this.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Yes and no, and you know there's no victims, but
they're kind of if you think about it, if somebody
brothers in my house and just like that sense of security,
you lose that sense of security. So in that sense, like,
oh well, I absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I mean he's not physically like going out and looking
for people to like assault her anything. So I feel like,
of course, of course this is still wrong and these
are still crimes. Absolutely. I just mean he's not out
he's not no basically hurting harming people, right, He's not
out there like looking to like actually hurt people.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
And you know, unless you have in a physical way,
then he's going to keep it from you.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Unless his feet get all over yourself.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Gross burn it down. So at one point police find
one of his recent camps and they spotted something unusual.
They found his dog, and so he very much loved
this dog. The police decide we're going to take the
dog in, and they hoped that it would lure Colton in,
and it did sort of instead of turning himself in. Though,
would you like to guess what I anyone, he stole
(35:01):
the dog, thank you? He broke in, stole the car dog.
I mean it was his dog. I don't know if
it but we don't know the original place that he
got his dog from, to be honest, So he stole
someone's dog out of the out of there. This was
kind of funny to me. They called his mom, who
he had like a relationship with, but it was obviously
(35:22):
very rocky. She was like, let me get his dog,
and they were like, absolutely not. This dog is part
of evidence. She's like, what, it's not evidence, but come on,
she would have been like, hey, Colton, here's some eggs
and here's your dog. She was not going to stop
him or you know, not give him his dog. So,
and then there are the planes. Colton was obsessed with aviation.
He could actually identify aircrafts by the sound of their
(35:45):
engines as they went over him. He would sit by
the airfields and watch them take off and land. He
would steal credit cards and use him to buy flight
manuals online. And if you're like, wait a minute, why
is he using credit cards? How is this getting to him?
He doesn't have an address, right right, good question. One
(36:05):
time he stole a credit card from a restaurant, got
the tracking number, had it sent to the restaurant. When
he saw that the tracking number said delivered, he broke
in and got the book and got back out. So
he needed the Internet as part of this. For sure.
He taught himself everything. As I said, he has this manual,
(36:26):
these books, he's reading them. He's watching thousands of hours
on YouTube, which I can't remember how much was even
on YouTube at the time. He's doing everything he can
to learn about flying, literally anything to become a pilot.
He wasn't really interested in becoming a pilot at some
point in his life. He was literally studying for the
moment he could try it for real.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Which is a great way to great attitude to have
towards flying.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
I mean, really, why do it later when we could
do it now not great, right.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
And lucky for Colton, he didn't have to wait very long.
The opportunity came a lot sooner than he or anyone
ever expected. In the midst of all these news reports
about this kid, he stole his first airplane and promptly
crashed it, but somehow did survive and he got away.
He slipped away. The authorities actually didn't even suspect Colton
(37:18):
was behind this plane theft and crashing, because literally, why
would you think that this kid barefoot bandit. You wouldn't
put that together and think, well, maybe he not has
stolen an airplane. They actually assumed that the plane was
stolen and crashed by a drug runner who crashed the
plane and took off. But one little plane crash, though,
was not going to stop our friend Colton. He just
(37:39):
really kept right going. From that point. He broke into
six different airports just trying to find the right plane.
I don't know how he was like any media miney
mowing this or something.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
I don't know how he was choosing, and he was
like looking for a very specific one. I guess he
didn't learn to fly a lot of them, so it
should have been millions of hours on YouTube, and maybe
he could have just had his pick of the litter.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I wonder if it's like, you know, when you're learning
how to drive a car, or even when you're purchasing
a new vehicle, Like I know that I look at
driving smaller car differently than driving like a big thing.
Sometimes I get freaked out if I think about, like
could I drive a semi truck? Like I couldn't do that.
Maybe it was the same with the plane. Maybe he
was like, I can't take a passenger. I can't take
a seven thirty seven, right, like I can't drive. He
(38:25):
at least knew that much. He had to find like
a small enough plane that he thought he could could
handle right.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
Know your limits, you know, Yeah, I imagine these you
have to know your lines, not commercial cesmas and stuff. Yeah,
but wouldn't it be great?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
He did pretty wild, which there's so many of those
little planes up there getting to the islands.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Right exactly, so he really could discuss that's true.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
So over the course of this spree he did find
a few different airplanes that suited his fancy. He actually
stole several and crashed at least four of them, but
somehow walked away on skates every single time. Either he's
like got nine lives or he's just not flying very
high and is a very lucky person. But by now
the Internet was bought in. Everybody was in on this story.
(39:11):
Everybody wanted to know more. He had thousands of Facebook friends,
and as Melissa was saying, he's loving it. He loves
the attention. He's posting pictures of himself just laying in
the wood, just taunting the police and the authorities that
are looking for him, enjoying the fact that people are
literally writing songs about him. They're using his mugshot and
putting it on merch. They're calling him a modern day
(39:33):
Robin Hood. At one point, a veterinary clinic employee in Raymond,
Washington found one hundred dollars bill and a handwritten note
that read, I had some extra cash, please use it
for the animals, and it was signed Colton Harris More
aka the Barefoot Bandit. I don't know. He did seem
like he was an animal person, so maybe it was him.
(39:53):
But you know, sometimes I'm like, people, do weirds some
extra cash? Strangers do weird? No, oh body, you still
you need the cash? It is very Robinhood. I guess
to have done.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Yeah, it is so some people are of course rooting
for him, but others are exhausted, especially the local police department.
I can't imagine having to stand up there and say
we still can't find him, and they're like, his feet
are on the windows, who still don't know where he is?
Like that has to get old really quick. But of
course Colton's actions weren't completely harmless. He did leave people
(40:27):
afraid in their own homes, as I was saying, before
he broke into government vehicles, he stole guns. Law enforcement
across multiple states spent countless hours and resources trying to
find him, and he would just keep moving. He'd steal
a car, drive it until it ran out of gas,
and then ditch it and find another one. He actually
started hopping islands by boat, avoiding capture again and again. Eventually, though,
(40:52):
he has an idea. He wants to get to the Bahamas,
so he is going to drive across the US, stealing cars,
abandoning them as he runs out of gas, and then
grabbing a new one. But finally, in July twenty ten,
it all comes crashing down. Literally, Colton stole one plane.
This one is in Indiana. And flew it all the
(41:14):
way down to the Bahamas, which right there, How did
you how? I wouldn't even know how if I was
up or down, if I was flying a plane.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I want to know. How come no air Traffic Control
picked this up and was like, why is this random
plane not flying at all correctly? Going all the way
from Washington to Indiana? It's much better. It's just Indiana.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
No, It's also like you hear the ones you've become
a parent, you never sleep through the night again because
you just wear about your kids. I mean, this mom
is operating on another planet.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Absolutely, can you imagine? Oh my gosh, So this time
his flight, believe it or not, he crash lands once again.
These are smaller planes. It's got to be him running
out of gas. I know at least a few times,
and like pretty low to the ground. But still I
many knows I would die if I just fell out
of a plane. All my bones would break. I would
(42:07):
be a medical emergency, like I can barely survive the day.
And he's just getting out of crashes over and over again.
But of course he's not done. He gets to the Bahamas,
he's crashed. Now he's going to get a boat. So
he takes a boat and he leads the Behaman authorities
on a high speed water chase before they finally catch
up to him, and they're like, if you try to
(42:29):
drive off, we're going to shoot your boat, and so
when he tries to do that, they shoot up his boat.
He's alive, he's fine, but he was scared obviously at
that point, and police were finally able to capture him.
And just like that, the barefoot banded was grounded. Wow,
ground it, You're grounded. He needed to be grounded a
few more times he did, starting at seven.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
To the Bohemian authorities extradited him back to the US,
and once he was back in the US, he faced
over thirty charges. They ranged from everything including burglary to
aircraft theft, which apparently is its own separate crime. I
didn't know that, but he was facing multiple years of incarceration,
and that is, of course, unless he could get himself
(43:10):
a great defense attorney, and you bet he did. So
you might know this guy. His name is John Henry Brown,
and it is the same John Henry Brown who once
defended Ted Bundy. So in twenty twelve, Colton pleaded guilty
to multiple federal charges, and he was sentenced to six
and a half years in prison. He went on to
service time really without any incident, surprisingly because you would
(43:34):
think that the Barefoot Bandit would like Barefoot band It
his way right out of prison as his last act
of just like completely expanding about it. But absolutely, he
definitely thought about it. He definitely thought about it. But
after his release, his legitimate release in twenty sixteen, Colton
reportedly went to a halfway house and worked in construction
(43:57):
and expressed interest in becoming an aviation mechanic, which definitely
makes sense might be a great career path for him.
He definitely was persistent and he had at least a
little bit of knowledge already going into it, so maybe
that would be a good thing for him. But now
that the media circus has moved on his story, of course,
lingers as one of the weirdest true crime rabbit holes
that we've ever been down. We actually years ago talked
(44:20):
about this story for our Patreon listeners. It's been such
a long time ago. They did a documentary about this.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
It's on Amazon Prime. It's not great, but there's like
forty eight hours. I thought, it's like a weirdly animated
thing in part so many feet. One time he's just
sitting in the plane. I rewatched it and just his
foot is up there in the most odd way you
could ever put your foot. But I'm like, we get it,
he's barefoot. They just couldn't stop have a very hard
(44:47):
time with the barefoot thing. You gotta be honest, too much, I.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Mean, boy bare feet, Like yeah, okay, yeah, you you
really brought too much.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
That is way too much. But of course we know
Colton wasn't actually violent unless you count the aggressiveness he
portrayed his feet. The amount of times I've seen this
kid's feet is upsetting and unsettling. But of course it
wasn't exactly harmless. He was failed by all the adults
in his life, really, by the system and by the
structures that were supposed to protect him, and he learned
(45:20):
to survive on his own, and somewhere along the way,
survival turns into a spectacle, and thanks to internet hype
and media fascination, that spectacle turns into legend. Really, but
behind all the headlines and memes is a boy who
really never had a fair shot. Of course, you know,
there's a ripple effect of his actions, and it stretches far.
(45:40):
It's in people's homes, it's in their communities, and in
the lives of people who are still dealing with the consequences.
I will say from that documentary, this is kind of
peeling back what I just said. But there's a lady
who I guess Colton had ran through her yard and
she took the footprints made like casings and tried. I
saw them on eBay and I want to know if
(46:02):
she sold them, but she was like standing up in
the documentary with two feet and I was like, lady,
this is too far. We've gone way too far. So yeah,
So that's really the story of Colton and his barefoot
banded bandit badness.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Wow, what a great story. And I'm from Washington State
and i'd never heard of it.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Really.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yeah, I didn't know this one in real time. I
will say, I'm normally like pretty good on those things.
I didn't know this and one in real time, but
I've been fascinated by it ever since.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Wow, it's so interesting, and you know you're right, like
he's breaking in people's home, he is causing some level
of damage and fear, but you can really also feel
for him, like he was this kid that really never
fit into society and maybe didn't really have a chance.
So then he was like, I'm just going to make
my own way and do whatever I want, and was clearly,
(46:52):
you know, it is clearly intelligent in some way, and.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
He is resourceful. You cannot say that he's not resourceful.
He paid attention and kind of he was always one
step ahead. Obviously he knew what he was doing. I mean,
and I don't I genuinely don't believe that he was
trying to like harm or scare anyone. For sure. I
think it was just him just trying to take care
of himself and to get by. For sure.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I don't know what the job is, but there's a
very specific job out there for Colton.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
Can you even imagine. And when you were saying Mandy
earlier about the planes being stolen and how that's like
a federal offense or whatever, it's so funny because you
know there is somebody in the FBI whose job is
like plane recovery or something. We always run into that.
You'll be like some FBI agent in charge of art theft.
I'm like, really, but I mean, I guess it does
make sense. So there's a job for Colton, and there's
(47:43):
a job for everyone.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
I had never heard of the Barefoot bandit that I
hadn't either, and I was good and I'm from the Northwest.
Yeah I know, and you had somehow that slipped by.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
They did such a good job of telling the story.
They're so delightful. I loved how much he loved his dog.
I know, like anytime someone loves dogs, I have to
have a little bit of a soft spot for them totally.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
I actually remember when I was adopting my last dog, Bunker,
who you you know, rip iip. I was at the
Lacity shelter and there was this beautiful dog there. This
was before we found Bunker, and I asked if I
could like meet this dog. And so my husband and
I go in to meet with this dog and the
(48:28):
person who is in there from the shelter is like, oh,
don't get attached. His owner is going to be back
for him. Like the dog gets out all the time.
The owner just goes and gets the dog back, and
he is an escape artist, just like jumping over every fence.
And I'm like, it reminded me of the Barefoot bandit
like they cannot be.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Separated, always slipping between your fingers. Yes, yes, well I
have a wreck actually for great Day.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
So this is a documentary and it actually premiered back
in twenty eleven on EHBO and it's called There's Something
Wrong with Aunt Diane. And the documentary is about Diane
Schuler and a terrible car accident that she gets into
where there's multiple fatalities and sort of what leads to
(49:13):
the crash and unpacking what was going on for Diane
that the family was unaware of that probably led to
this crash. It was just a really powerful examination of
like how well you can know someone and also be
unaware of their struggles.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
There's like there were some dark secrets that were revealed.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yes, yes, and it's incredibly heavy and sad, but it's
also there's you can see despite, you know, because she
was driving, So it's like, despite what happened with the
crash and the death that came from this crash, there
was so much love for her from so many of
her family members still that it has always just stayed
with me because I thought it was a really dynamic
(49:55):
look at a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Is there a trial or a criminal aspect to this.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
You know, I don't remember if there was any sort
of like post mortem charges. I wouldn't think so, but
I don't recall exactly. But yeah, there's one interview in
particular that stands out so much to me. And I
don't even want to give it anything away, but yeah,
you should watch it. It's powerful and it's one that I
think probably not a lot of people have seen.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, what is it called again?
Speaker 2 (50:22):
There's something wrong with Aunt Diane.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
I'll put it on my list. I have to tell you,
I just watched a documentary. I don't really have a recommendation,
but I'm just gonna mention this one because this is
one that you recommended to me, not on air, just
on personal text message. Okay, love has won. Yeah, you
recently recommended this to me, and I was shocked, and
I think you were shocked too that neither of us
(50:46):
had seen this yet, because it came out in twenty
twenty three, I think. And it's about the Amy Carlson,
her group. She was this sort of she called herself
mother God. She had a group of followers and she
was found dead in a home in Colorado. And I
can't remember what year she died, but her followers were
(51:07):
still there. Her followers were still there, And we talked
about this years ago, like as it was breaking news.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah, as news of her death was starting to make headlines.
We were working on another show and the story came
up and we actually reached out about it. And I
think the person we made some contact with was her son,
who she was estranged from. But there was so much
going on and so many people working on the story
already that it wasn't the right place for us to
(51:37):
be spending our time. But the documentary is so unique
because it has so much access to believers followers, and
you don't usually get that.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
I think they must have started filming right after she died,
because they have some very early footage of her followers
doing interviews who still believe in her. And I mean
that must have Just the trust that this documentary filmmaker
must have had to build with them is really impressive.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
It was also impressive. I mean, you and I talked
about this so much. It's like, especially because we've worked
on cult stories, is that these interviews, you never felt
like the director, the producer, the person behind the camera
was poking any fun at them. I mean, yes, those
are you know, probably considered pretty outrageous beliefs that these
(52:27):
people have, but it never felt like we were laughing
at them. Yeah, it was just like an eye opening
view into like, wow, they were really in this.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
No, I totally agree, and that was really impressive. And
I like that a lot because it would have been
so easy to make fun of these people, and I
really felt like they never did that. It was really
pretty empathetic viewpoint.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Like.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Also, most of the people that were in this cult
seem like very kind people that just like really went
down a rabbit hole and believe some things that are
like pretty out there. But one of the things also
that makes the documentary so great is that part of
what this, you know, I'm going to call them a cult.
I think that's fair to say Colt was doing is
(53:10):
they were live streaming. They were selling products, crystals, tinctures,
and so part of that brand building is they were
live streaming a lot. So there's just so much archival
footage of them live streaming over the years. So it
is such a well done documentary. I loved it and
I would recommend it to anyone. Same Love has One,
(53:32):
Love has One? Well, that was our episode this week.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Thanks for listening and we'll see you guys soon. I
If you have a story for us, we would love
to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly
rightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram
at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
by me Hannah Smith and me Patia Eating. Our producers
are Tom Brivogel and Alexis Samarosi. This episodd was mixed
by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
(00:21):
Welcome to The Knife off record. I'm Patia Eton, I'm
Hannah Smith. Before we get into this episode real quick,
if you are enjoying the show, first of all, thank
you for listening. But would you do us a favor
and go and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen. It really does help us so much.
We're a new show and we're still trying to get
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(00:42):
it would just mean a lot to us. Thank you
so much for your support. If you really want to
go above and beyond, you could send your favorite episode
to a friend if you think they would like it.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, and you can also follow us on Instagram where
we post clips and when we can, we respond to
questions and like to update listeners, so make sure you
follo at The Knife podcast on Instagram and Blue Sky.
You can also send us an email at The Knife
at exactlyrightmedia dot com. This week we have a collaboration
with Mandy and Melissa from Moms and Mysteries. Moms and Mysteries,
(01:15):
formerly known as Moms and Murder, is a true crime
podcast hosted by Mandy and Melissa, two friends who do
deep dives into a new case each week. It's conversational
in tone and heavy on levity. You'll really enjoy their
original takes on both well known cases and lesser known
true crime stories.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We had such a good time doing this episode with them.
They are pros. They've been making their podcast for over
eight years now, which is amazing. And Melissa has another
podcast I want to shout out. She launched it in
twenty twenty one. It's called Criminality and they dive into
the true crimes of reality stars, which sounds really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We could definitely get into that.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, So in this episode, we are going to bring
you two crime stories. Patien I brought a crime story
and Mandy and Melissa also brought one. Patia and I
cover the murder of Richard Chalin and Mandy and Melissa
talk about the Barefoot Bandit. They're really different stories, but
both pretty fascinating. And again, we just loved meeting Mandy
(02:19):
and Melissa. So let's get into the episode.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
All right.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So the story that we have today is the story
of Sally Chalin. I'm going to start the story in
twenty ten. Sally, whose real name is Georgina by the way,
but she goes by Sally, and Richard Chalin had been
married for thirty one years. They had two sons who
were both grown, both in their twenties. In twenty ten,
(02:48):
Sally was fifty six years old and Richard was sixty one.
They lived in Surrey, England, which is southwest of London,
and about a year prior, in two thousand and nine,
Sally had actually moved out of their family home. Their
youngest son, David, was living with Sally and their oldest
son was living on his own, so Richard was the
(03:09):
only one living in the house that they had lived
in for years and raised their sons in. And the
reason for this was that they were going to get divorced,
but they actually had They were actually in the midst
of reconciling. So on the morning of August tenth, two
thousand and ten, twenty ten, Sally went over to their
(03:31):
family home where Richard was living, with the idea that
they were going to spend the day cleaning out the
garage getting ready to sell the house. And one of
the ideas they had was they were going to use
some of this money from the house sale to go
on a trip to Australia together, but before they started
cleaning out the house, they wanted to make breakfast, so
Sally actually left went to the store to go buy
(03:54):
bacon and eggs to make breakfast. She would later say
that she had the suspicion that Richard told her to
go to the store to buy these ingredients to try
to get her out of the house, and she was
suspicious about this, so when she got back, she checked
his phone and it showed a phone call between Richard
(04:16):
and this woman, Susan Wilkie. This was a person that
Sally was already suspicious of that she had googled the
day before, and it turns out Richard had met this woman,
Susan Wilkie on a social networking website called Dinner Dates,
and when Sally asked Richard about this, he responded with,
don't question me. So Sally made breakfast. Richard sat down
(04:41):
at the table to eat this breakfast, and when he did,
Sally took a hammer from her purse and hit him
over the head more than twenty times until he was
almost dead. She then stuffed a teatowel into his mouth
to make sure he was dead. She wrapped his body
in some old curtains and wrote a note and left
(05:04):
the note on his body that read I Love you, Sally,
and then she left. She went back to the house
where she was living. The next morning she got up,
she drove her twenty three year old son David to work,
and then she left Surrey and drove seventy five miles
south to Beachy Head in East Sussex, England, which is
(05:26):
on the southern coast and has these massive cliffs that
overlook the ocean. It's beautiful from pictures I looked at online,
but sadly it's also a very common place for people
to go and their life by jumping off the cliffs.
And actually in twenty ten, the Wall Street Journal listed
it as one of the among the top three most
(05:48):
common suicide spots in the world. And if you go there,
there are signs with phone number. With the phone number
too the Samaritans, which is a charity aimed at providing
emotional support to people, and they're available twenty four to seven,
and the local community and the police are also aware
of this, so they're sort of on the lookout for
people that might be trying to do this. Reportedly, Sally
(06:11):
called her cousin and confessed to killing Richard and said
she planned to jump from the cliffs, but the police
were called and it took three hours of them talking
to her to convince her to come away from the ledge,
and she was taking into custody and charge with the
murder of Richard Chalen. The police discovered his body around
(06:31):
one pm on Sunday, which was the next day, and
a post mortem exam that was conducted determined his cause
of death to be severe blunt trauma to the head.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So Sally immediately admits to having killed Richard, and so
she's taken into custody at that point, and this is
August of twenty ten, and so during her time in custody,
she is assessed by two different psychologists forensic psychologists, and
(07:03):
the first one of those he will get into her trial,
but he said that he did not conclude that Sally
had been suffering from any mental disorders or personality disorders.
Then a second forensic psychologist also assessed Sally and his
conclusion was different. He said that he believed she was
(07:26):
suffering from a depressive disorder. He also noted that Sally
told him about sexual and physical abuse by Richard that
included that Richard would rape her as a form of punishment,
and that she hoped that when he did this it
would sort of make him happy and make him love her.
(07:46):
And she's a woman in distress. So this trial takes
place in June of twenty eleven, and the trial takes
place over seven days, and during her trial, Sally is
portrayed by the Crown as constantly checking Richard's phone and email,
being jealous and possessive, and having said at one point,
if I can't have him, then no one can. And
(08:09):
the jury was also told that Sally had been stalking
Richard online, spying on him, listening to his voicemails. It
was really a picture of a scorned lover, a woman
who refused to move on from her failed marriage. And
Sally's defense relied partially on something called diminished responsibility, which means, yes,
(08:33):
she's saying that she killed him, but her responsibility for
killing him cannot be murder because she was experiencing things
in the marriage that were taking away her capacity to
think clearly. So Sally's defense during her trial is saying,
you know, is introducing this concept of diminished responsibility. They're
(08:55):
basically asserting that although Sally broke the law by killing Richard,
her mental capacity was impaired and this ought to protect
her from full criminal responsibility. And the goal here is
that Sally doesn't end up with a murder conviction, but
instead manslaughter, because manslaughter carries a much lighter sentence and
(09:17):
they felt it was appropriate given what she experienced during
her marriage to Richard. Unfortunately, Sally is convicted by a
unanimous jury in June twenty eleven after only eleven hours,
and they convict her of murder. So she appeals her conviction,
but it was upheld. The only thing that comes her
way is that her sentence is reduced from a minimum
(09:40):
of twenty two years to a minimum of nineteen years served.
And the entire time that this is going on, ever
since Sally is charged at all, she has the support
of her family and other people who are standing in
solidarity with Sally as a victim of domestic abuse. You know,
(10:00):
we've learned so much about domestic abuse since twenty ten
and have so much more language around what that can
really mean. And so as her legal team is preparing
for another appeal, this whole other picture of Sally's marriage
begins to emerge.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Through interviews with her attorney. She starts to sort of
open up and we learn about like what was actually
going on inside their marriage, and you know, it goes
all the way back to the beginning. And actually Sally
was only fifteen years old when they first met and
(10:40):
Richard was twenty two, you know, so she was still
basically a child baby. Yeah, yeah, and there basically there's
accounts that you know, he was controlling, like pretty much
right off the bat. He would control like how she
acted and wanted to control sort of like who she
(11:02):
talked to. And she was still in school, but she
would stop by his apartment after school to clean and
cook for him.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
You know, this was like I think this was like
nineteen seventy or something, so definitely different times, but still
pretty alarming. And she got pregnant at seventeen and ended
up having a late term abortion. Her older brothers brought
her to have this done, and they then confronted Richard
(11:34):
about this. You know, it's like protective older brothers, and
he supposedly said like kind of like shrugged it off
and said it could have been anybody's like baby, Oh gosh.
She also told her attorney that around this time, like
around like age seventeen ish, she confronted Richard because she
found out that he was still like sleeping with other women,
(11:55):
and he dragged her down the stairs and threw her
out of the apartment. Said that she was basically afraid
from them to throughout their whole relationship of like confronting
him or pushing too hard in case he might react
physically again like that, they ended up getting married. Her
mom Sally's mom never liked him, didn't want them to
get married, but people say, like she just really like
(12:16):
seemed to love him and always hoped that things would
get better. He was really into cars. He would it
end up going on to start a car dealership and
was very successful and like made pretty good money. Their home,
their family home in Surrey in twenty ten, was estimated
to be worth about one million pounds. But you know,
(12:37):
things didn't quite you know, things didn't get better. Neighbors
and friends would later say that he would often criticize
her in public and like in social settings, often commenting
on her weight. You know that she was she did
all the cooking, all the cleaning, took care of all
the household stuff for them while he worked, so she
was mostly a homemaker while the kids were little. But
(12:58):
then when their youngest turned thirteen, she went and got
an admin job. But then her husband, Richard, then required
her to use her salary that she got from her
job to pay for all of the household expenses, and
he kind of kept his money for himself and he
would buy himself expensive cars and watches and go to
Grand Prix events. Their youngest son, David, ever since his mom,
(13:22):
you know, was arrested and charged, has become an advocate
for his mother's release, and he recently wrote a book
called The Unthinkable, A Story of control, Violence and My Mother,
and he talks a lot about what he observed of
his parents growing up. You know. He talked about his
dad being this sort of like looming presence, and he
(13:45):
really he watched as his dad would criticize his mother
and come home and just criticize the food that she cooked.
He said that beyond that, his dad was very controlling,
like very controlling of things like the television, even when
he was gone all day at work. He didn't want
his mom or the boys watching TV because he said
it would like diminish the life of the television.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Oh my gosh, what that's like taking You know, you
always hear about like dad things, you know, like they
always wanted to shut off the lights or they always
want you to do this, but like not watching TV
because you're scared that it's going to diminish the life
of the TV is a new extreme of just dadism.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Totally yeah, totally different than like shut the door, don't
air condition the whole neighborhood, right, I've heard that before, clastic,
but yeah, it was just like this like pattern of
him being incredibly controlling. And he also controlled who Sally
could be friends with. So one time she was like
cooking in the kitchen. She was going to host a
(14:47):
new friend that she'd met, and Richard didn't like this,
so he just like threw the food across the room
and said, well, I guess you can't have her over anymore.
So there's definitely a pattern of him controlling her, isolation her,
not wanting her to have friends. And then it sounds
like he also was continually having affairs like that happened
(15:07):
when they first met, and it sounds like it never
really stopped. Certain times Sally seemed to sort of be
believing him, and other times she would question him. Their son, David,
remembers when he was around eighteen that he found out
about some affairs his dad was having, and he even
confronted his dad and he said his dad just would
never hear any of it. He wasn't receptive to anyone
(15:30):
else's feedback. And over and over, anytime Sally would question
him about something in their marriage, he would say the
same thing. He would say, don't question me, which was
interesting because that's like the last thing he said to her,
you know, before she killed him. In two thousand and four,
Richard and Sally they went to Australia for a family's wedding.
Richard brother lived there with his sister in law, and
(15:53):
even his family remembers seeing him interact with Sally and
thinking that something was wrong. They didn't like the way
he was treating her. Reportedly, he just only wanted to
dance with all the young women at the wedding and
wouldn't dance with Sally. Seemed to be like just to
embarrass her or something, and Richard's sister in law spoke
with her at that time and asked her how things
(16:16):
were going, and she said she told her if I
left Richard, he would make my life hell. He was
also charged with fraud in two thousand and six. He
owned a Ferrari which cost him ninety two thousand pounds,
and he had taken it to an F one track
in Belgium and wrecked it, and instead of reporting it,
(16:36):
he shipped it back to Surrey and tried to make
an insurance claim saying that it was hit by a truck.
So that's wild, but they figured out what was going on.
He was charged with fraud by two thousand and nine. Sally,
you know, her sons were older, and her son David specifically,
was very like supportive of her trying to get out
(16:58):
of this marriage. She had finally left Richard. She had
a small amount of family inheritance which she used to
buy a small house a few blocks away, and you know,
she had finally done it. I mean she was in
her fifties at this point, and she had started dating
him when she was fifteen years old, So that's like,
you know, her whole life basically. Yeah, And according to
(17:21):
her friends and family, it just was really difficult. She
couldn't really figure out how to do things without him.
She was distraught, and soon she was hoping to get
back together with him. Richard, on the other hand, I
think used this as a way to manipulate her further
and said that he would start to reconcile with her
only under the circumstances that she agreed to get legally divorced.
(17:46):
He wanted to give her two hundred thousand pounds, which
would be far less than she would actually be entitled to,
and she had to agree in writing that when they
went out in public, she wouldn't talk with strangers and
she would never interrupt him when he.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Talked I hate this guy.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, So she, you know, agreed to it, but she
was also suspicious that maybe he was just using this
as an excuse to get legally divorced from her and
keep most of their assets under the guys that they
were going to reconcile. So that was sort of the
situation leading up to that day. In August of twenty ten,
her divorce attorney said that she had started and then
(18:25):
stopped divorce proceedings thirteen times, so there was a lot
of just like indecision, and she had become obsessed with
trying to find out if he was still cheating on her.
You know, sounds like she was hoping that he had changed,
but also wondering if he was just still doing the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
As Sally dives deeper into what was going on in
her marriage with her legal team, through this appeals process,
it becomes clear the extent of the abuse that she
was experiencing. And so in February twenty nineteen, which you know,
she was convicted a murder back in June of twenty eleven,
she's been imprisoned this entire time. In February of twenty nineteen,
(19:13):
she has a new legal team and it consists of
her solicitor, whose name is Harriet Wistrick, and she's actually
the director of the Center for Women's Justice in the UK.
Their mission is to hold the state accountable and challenge
discrimination in the justice system around male violence against women
and girls. She also has a woman named Claire Waite
(19:36):
on her side who is her trial attorney, and her
practice really dives into murder, manslaughter, sexual offenses, and serious
violence in the context of domestic homicide. So these two
attorneys team up for Sally's defense and they get her
appeal seen by a three judge panel and part of
(19:58):
What comes out during that appeal is that there's this
new term called coercive control that has come to light,
and it really speaks to honing in on why Sally
had that diminished responsibility that her defense said she had
way back in twenty eleven. And there's an American professor
named Evan Stark who never assessed Sally personally, but can
(20:21):
really speak to this term of course of control. So
he actually spoke during her appeal and he is quoted
as saying that course of control was designed to subjucate
and dominate, not merely to hurt. It achieves compliance by
making victims afraid, depriving them of their rights, resources and
liberties without which they cannot defend themselves, escape refused demands,
(20:44):
or resist. It produces a hostage like condition of entrapment.
And at the time of her trial, he says it
was not widely understood. So these judges, you know, are
going to determine if she's going to spend another ten
plus years in prison. And outside the courthouse there's people
holding signs Free Sally. Her sons are still there standing
(21:06):
by her side. You know, as Hannah mentioned, people who
were on Richard's side of the family had even witnessed
the abuse. After this appeals process, Sally Wins and the
crown that had initially convicted her wanted a retrial. They
didn't get it is her charge was reduced from murder
to manslaughter, and so she was released because she had
(21:28):
already served that time. Her manslaughter sentence would have been
over nine years, which she had already then served, and
so she was released. And her son, who Hannah mentioned,
said it was just an incredible experience to watch his
mom walk out a free woman and for people to
understand that she wasn't this, you know, cruel murderer. She
(21:51):
was a woman who was experiencing course of control and
didn't know way out. And I think also learning so
much about her history and this being her first relationship
from when she's fifteen, it's like that, I mean, you
don't know anything else. I can see why she filed
so many times and then trying to reconcile. It's like
(22:12):
your whole self worth is tied up in this person
because you don't know anything different.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
She's only been an adult with him, that's her whole
adult life. But it makes me think of like you
do hear those relationships like twenty something fifteen, and you
have to wonder, like how much of that is because
I mean, obviously there's laws against it, but how much
of that is because they are just looking for someone
to be able to control and manipulate, even if that
(22:39):
doesn't seem like their intention, Like there's really no reason
a twenty two year old and a fifteen year old
should be getting together. That's again a baby, Like that's
just a person starting their life, so.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Totally real and it's unreal. And in the wake of
her appeal, this term coercive control, they're realizing, Okay, this
applies to the case of these other women who are
imprisoned on these murder charges because we didn't have an
understanding of domestic abuse and course of control like you know,
at the time of their trial, like we do right now.
(23:12):
And so there were successful appeals following Sally's successful appeal
because of this sort of ability to convey to the
judges what she was actually experiencing.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Oh wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
That is such a wild story, not one that I
can personally relate to. I only can relate to the
part of the story of meeting your spouse very young.
I was seventeen when I met my husband. We're actually
about to celebrate our twenty year together in this anniversary
next week. But I relate to the feeling of just
like not knowing any other anything different. You know, whenever
(23:47):
you don't know, you don't know. Even if you know
that you don't want to be in the situation you're in,
it's really scary to think about leaving that situation and
going off into something that you don't even know. You know,
at least the devil you know is better than the
one you don't or whatever the phrase is. You know,
you kind of know what you're into with what you've
been used to, but if you leave and go off
on your own, you don't know really what you're getting into.
(24:09):
So you can see how that would be really scary
for someone who got into that type of relationship when
they were only fifteen years old.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
It's just really hard, especially like living under this threat
like he's going to make her life hell if she
divorces him, and it's like, okay, well what does that
mean because my life was already so terrible with you,
right right, so scary?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
How could it be worse?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Yeah, So this week's story feels a little like a movie.
Like if we told you this was a Netflix plot line,
you'd probably believe us, but you'd still be like, well,
maybe maybe not. I'm not sure. So we're talking about
this lanky teenager from a small island town who escapes
from a halfway house and goes on the run. But
(24:50):
not just any run. This kid steals cars, he breaks
into homes, he hacks computers, he flies actual airplanes that
he taught himself how to fly, and he learned all
of this on you Tube and he does it all.
This part is unfortunate. Barefoot have you.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Guys, Melissa hate that part.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I don't care how good his feet are, anybody's feet,
I don't want to see them. But have you guys
heard of Colton Harris Moore, the Barefoot Bandit?
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I am not.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Oh, this is such a treat. I'm so excited to
be bringing.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
This to you.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
What a big day for us. So Colton Harrismore, he
is six foot five, two hundred pounds by the time
he reaches his full Internet legend status. So he is
someone that lives in the woods. He's slipped through police traps,
He's somehow captured the imagination of thousands of people who
were rooting for him online. Think like Luigi that we
(25:45):
just had going through the news like Mandion like that
kind of a hype though, and people following his story
like when Facebook was still kind of early days and stuff.
But as wild and as me worthy as his cases,
it's also sad and messy because he wasn't some kind
of anti hero or anything. He was just a teenager
who has been failed by really every system in his life.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah. So Colton was born in nineteen ninety one and
he grew up in Camano Island, Washington. So this is
a very tight knit island with only about fifteen hundred residents.
So you're thinking, like it's in Washington, woodsy quiet, this
is the kind of place that you really want to
escape to or get away too now, the kind of
place that you're usually running away from. But as we said,
(26:29):
Colton didn't really have the peaceful small town life that
you know, you would expect a child growing up in
this area to have his dad left when he was
just around two or three years old and was in
and out of his life until he finally disappeared for good,
and his mom struggled with addiction and mental health issues.
She reportedly would let Colton just kind of come and
(26:51):
go as he pleased. And that was even during the
height of his crime spree. You know, she was still
allowing him, you know, free access to her home.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
And she would straight up be like, my son was
hungry and he came over, and what do you want
me to do? Not feed them? When the police are like,
you're aid in a betting, you know, a criminal, She's like, right,
so I'm hungry, I'm going to feed him. So she
did not. She was not to be messed with in
this entire story.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
No, So by the time Colton was seven, he had
already been arrested seven years old, which is heartbreaking and
also like what happened, right, I'm sure that's probably what
everyone's thinking, what would a seven year old possibly do? Well,
he didn't hurt anyone, but he would sneak into vacation
(27:35):
homes literally looking for food and shelter. Though, so like
you have this little kid that's breaking and entering into
vacation homes because he's hungry and he wants a place
to rest. So his behavior, though, did escalate over time,
not necessarily because he was a bad person, but literally
it was a means of survival for him. And eventually
(27:56):
he did end up in a juvenile detention center and
then in a halfway house, and that's where things really
took a sharp turn for him.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
So it was just days before his seventeenth birthday that
Colton escaped the halfway house. Not in like a chaotic
middle of the night, you know, running through in slow
motion kind of thing, but more like a very carefully
planned out route through the woods that he knew all
of the woods like he literally grew up there and
in there he was someone who lived in the woods
(28:25):
a lot, and from there he launched one of the
most bizarre and infamous two year crime spreees we have
ever seen. He knows the woods, like I was saying,
better than anyone. He would build a camp, he would
stash his supplies, he'd even set out little hideouts near
the houses that he was targeting, and police would like
randomly stumble into his camps and think they're close to
(28:47):
getting him, but within hours he realizes they've seen it
and he's off to a new place. One thing I
read was like, during this time he was in the woods,
he was like a mile away from his mom, like
he was in a very small area and they could
not catch this kid at all. But it went further,
not just breaking in, you know, stealing food and stuff.
(29:10):
Locals start noticing strange things like their credit cards are
being used online to buy things like bear spray, or
computer hacking software or GPS tools, and of course porn.
He wasn't just stealing random things. He was literally studying, researching,
and upgrading his gear. In one particularly bold move, he
(29:30):
broke into a police station, disabled their alarm system and
was able to make out with a few things. And
another time he broke into a fire station. Here's where
I say he's kind of pretty smart and still an
infrared camera. That way he could scan houses to make
sure no one was in the house before he would
break in. That way, you know, he's just going in
(29:52):
getting what he needs, and he's leaving.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Smart for thinking of having like thermal imaging before you
break in someone's home, just to make sure they're not there.
I appreciate that very much for his safety and the
homeowner as well, but also not really smart to get
one from a fire station just fine.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
So can only imagine how law enforcement felt like he's
breaking into our facilities and we cannot catch him.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
It's got to be but to use our equipment against
us basically like to use you know, like it's it's
all just completely bizarre to even think that a teenager
like was responsible for this whole.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Can I ask a question real quick?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So you had mentioned like, okay, so he's using credit cards.
I'm guessing that's because he's breaking in people's homes and
maybe like taking their wallet or something. And you had
mentioned that he was also buying porn. Did he have
like what was his connectivity as far as city of
like internet access, study of a phone.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
He had a laptop. I don't remember if he had
a phone, but he did have a laptop. Like as
the story goes on, he literally will post pictures of
himself on face Book laying in the woods, and everyone's
trying to figure out where he is. Where he is
I mean, and you'll hear more about the credit card
thing in a minute. It's probably my favorite part of
the story.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
So eventually, by the time he was, you know, in
his teen years, he now has found a partner in
crime for some of his crime adventures. And this was
a friend of his name Harley. So the two of
them started breaking into vacation homes together, and Harley later
said that he was mostly just in it for the cash,
but Colton was always looking for other things, as Melissa
(31:37):
was saying, laptops, credit cards, anything, any tool or anything
that he could get his hands on that might help
him stay one step ahead of the authorities. They would
even find keys to cars and they would go take
these cars on joy ride, so grand theft auto. Now
they're just all the crime stacking up. But in a
weird twist of conscience or maybe chaos. They would sometimes
(31:59):
return a car full of gas cleaned and park it back.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
And then you imagine coming home and thinking someone's messed
with my car. But I have a full tank of
gas and they cleaned it. I don't know that I
would call the police. I'd be like, this was the
you know, the car Angel.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Car cleaning Ferry visited me.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I'm one of these owners of a vacation home. This
is like the lore of the island, and I want to.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Break in, right, I want to be next no kidding.
So it was around this time that residents started calling
Colton teen Houdini, which I feel like is very apt
considering that they really could not find him, and he
would appear and disappear and just continue to confuse law
enforcement every step of the way. So as words spread
(32:44):
about this barefoot bandit teen genius that was just slipping
through the cracks and you know, was not able to
be captured. That was how kind of this legend was born.
And there were really early YouTube videos about it. Facebook
fan group started popping up. There were even people making
and selling t shirts with his name or you know,
(33:05):
barefoot bandit like some funny like it was just a
big joke, but it really wasn't a joke. So that's
where it's like very ironic.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
So the barefoot thing, though, he was doing this all
the time in the woods everywhere. I don't know that
it was necessarily he didn't like shoes, or he liked
his feet, or he had a thing with me, I
don't know, but it was very like obvious everywhere he
went because they would see his footprints. One time, he
even pours I think flower somewhere like on the ground
and walks through it so they could see it. Like
he was leaving his calling card everywhere, and unfortunately his
(33:37):
calling card his feet.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I can't yuck.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I know it's about after all of the links that
he went to.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
I know, I know, but he really he The thing
with him is he really does think he's smarter than everyone,
and in some ways he is smarter than a lot
of people. He has like a will, a determination, like
he's doing this for himself, and he hasn't had a
lot even education, He really hasn't had a.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Whole lot hurting anyone. And that's the other part about this.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Yes and no, and you know there's no victims, but
they're kind of if you think about it, if somebody
brothers in my house and just like that sense of security,
you lose that sense of security. So in that sense, like,
oh well, I absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I mean he's not physically like going out and looking
for people to like assault her anything. So I feel like,
of course, of course this is still wrong and these
are still crimes. Absolutely. I just mean he's not out
he's not no basically hurting harming people, right, He's not
out there like looking to like actually hurt people.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
And you know, unless you have in a physical way,
then he's going to keep it from you.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Unless his feet get all over yourself.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Gross burn it down. So at one point police find
one of his recent camps and they spotted something unusual.
They found his dog, and so he very much loved
this dog. The police decide we're going to take the
dog in, and they hoped that it would lure Colton in,
and it did sort of instead of turning himself in. Though,
would you like to guess what I anyone, he stole
(35:01):
the dog, thank you? He broke in, stole the car dog.
I mean it was his dog. I don't know if
it but we don't know the original place that he
got his dog from, to be honest, So he stole
someone's dog out of the out of there. This was
kind of funny to me. They called his mom, who
he had like a relationship with, but it was obviously
(35:22):
very rocky. She was like, let me get his dog,
and they were like, absolutely not. This dog is part
of evidence. She's like, what, it's not evidence, but come on,
she would have been like, hey, Colton, here's some eggs
and here's your dog. She was not going to stop
him or you know, not give him his dog. So,
and then there are the planes. Colton was obsessed with aviation.
He could actually identify aircrafts by the sound of their
(35:45):
engines as they went over him. He would sit by
the airfields and watch them take off and land. He
would steal credit cards and use him to buy flight
manuals online. And if you're like, wait a minute, why
is he using credit cards? How is this getting to him?
He doesn't have an address, right right, good question. One
(36:05):
time he stole a credit card from a restaurant, got
the tracking number, had it sent to the restaurant. When
he saw that the tracking number said delivered, he broke
in and got the book and got back out. So
he needed the Internet as part of this. For sure.
He taught himself everything. As I said, he has this manual,
(36:26):
these books, he's reading them. He's watching thousands of hours
on YouTube, which I can't remember how much was even
on YouTube at the time. He's doing everything he can
to learn about flying, literally anything to become a pilot.
He wasn't really interested in becoming a pilot at some
point in his life. He was literally studying for the
moment he could try it for real.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Which is a great way to great attitude to have
towards flying.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
I mean, really, why do it later when we could
do it now not great, right.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
And lucky for Colton, he didn't have to wait very long.
The opportunity came a lot sooner than he or anyone
ever expected. In the midst of all these news reports
about this kid, he stole his first airplane and promptly
crashed it, but somehow did survive and he got away.
He slipped away. The authorities actually didn't even suspect Colton
(37:18):
was behind this plane theft and crashing, because literally, why
would you think that this kid barefoot bandit. You wouldn't
put that together and think, well, maybe he not has
stolen an airplane. They actually assumed that the plane was
stolen and crashed by a drug runner who crashed the
plane and took off. But one little plane crash, though,
was not going to stop our friend Colton. He just
(37:39):
really kept right going. From that point. He broke into
six different airports just trying to find the right plane.
I don't know how he was like any media miney
mowing this or something.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
I don't know how he was choosing, and he was
like looking for a very specific one. I guess he
didn't learn to fly a lot of them, so it
should have been millions of hours on YouTube, and maybe
he could have just had his pick of the litter.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I wonder if it's like, you know, when you're learning
how to drive a car, or even when you're purchasing
a new vehicle, Like I know that I look at
driving smaller car differently than driving like a big thing.
Sometimes I get freaked out if I think about, like
could I drive a semi truck? Like I couldn't do that.
Maybe it was the same with the plane. Maybe he
was like, I can't take a passenger. I can't take
a seven thirty seven, right, like I can't drive. He
(38:25):
at least knew that much. He had to find like
a small enough plane that he thought he could could
handle right.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
Know your limits, you know, Yeah, I imagine these you
have to know your lines, not commercial cesmas and stuff. Yeah,
but wouldn't it be great?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
He did pretty wild, which there's so many of those
little planes up there getting to the islands.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Right exactly, so he really could discuss that's true.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
So over the course of this spree he did find
a few different airplanes that suited his fancy. He actually
stole several and crashed at least four of them, but
somehow walked away on skates every single time. Either he's
like got nine lives or he's just not flying very
high and is a very lucky person. But by now
the Internet was bought in. Everybody was in on this story.
(39:11):
Everybody wanted to know more. He had thousands of Facebook friends,
and as Melissa was saying, he's loving it. He loves
the attention. He's posting pictures of himself just laying in
the wood, just taunting the police and the authorities that
are looking for him, enjoying the fact that people are
literally writing songs about him. They're using his mugshot and
putting it on merch. They're calling him a modern day
(39:33):
Robin Hood. At one point, a veterinary clinic employee in Raymond,
Washington found one hundred dollars bill and a handwritten note
that read, I had some extra cash, please use it
for the animals, and it was signed Colton Harris More
aka the Barefoot Bandit. I don't know. He did seem
like he was an animal person, so maybe it was him.
(39:53):
But you know, sometimes I'm like, people, do weirds some
extra cash? Strangers do weird? No, oh body, you still
you need the cash? It is very Robinhood. I guess
to have done.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Yeah, it is so some people are of course rooting
for him, but others are exhausted, especially the local police department.
I can't imagine having to stand up there and say
we still can't find him, and they're like, his feet
are on the windows, who still don't know where he is?
Like that has to get old really quick. But of
course Colton's actions weren't completely harmless. He did leave people
(40:27):
afraid in their own homes, as I was saying, before
he broke into government vehicles, he stole guns. Law enforcement
across multiple states spent countless hours and resources trying to
find him, and he would just keep moving. He'd steal
a car, drive it until it ran out of gas,
and then ditch it and find another one. He actually
started hopping islands by boat, avoiding capture again and again. Eventually, though,
(40:52):
he has an idea. He wants to get to the Bahamas,
so he is going to drive across the US, stealing cars,
abandoning them as he runs out of gas, and then
grabbing a new one. But finally, in July twenty ten,
it all comes crashing down. Literally, Colton stole one plane.
This one is in Indiana. And flew it all the
(41:14):
way down to the Bahamas, which right there, How did
you how? I wouldn't even know how if I was
up or down, if I was flying a plane.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I want to know. How come no air Traffic Control
picked this up and was like, why is this random
plane not flying at all correctly? Going all the way
from Washington to Indiana? It's much better. It's just Indiana.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
No, It's also like you hear the ones you've become
a parent, you never sleep through the night again because
you just wear about your kids. I mean, this mom
is operating on another planet.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
Absolutely, can you imagine? Oh my gosh, So this time
his flight, believe it or not, he crash lands once again.
These are smaller planes. It's got to be him running
out of gas. I know at least a few times,
and like pretty low to the ground. But still I
many knows I would die if I just fell out
of a plane. All my bones would break. I would
(42:07):
be a medical emergency, like I can barely survive the day.
And he's just getting out of crashes over and over again.
But of course he's not done. He gets to the Bahamas,
he's crashed. Now he's going to get a boat. So
he takes a boat and he leads the Behaman authorities
on a high speed water chase before they finally catch
up to him, and they're like, if you try to
(42:29):
drive off, we're going to shoot your boat, and so
when he tries to do that, they shoot up his boat.
He's alive, he's fine, but he was scared obviously at
that point, and police were finally able to capture him.
And just like that, the barefoot banded was grounded. Wow,
ground it, You're grounded. He needed to be grounded a
few more times he did, starting at seven.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
To the Bohemian authorities extradited him back to the US,
and once he was back in the US, he faced
over thirty charges. They ranged from everything including burglary to
aircraft theft, which apparently is its own separate crime. I
didn't know that, but he was facing multiple years of incarceration,
and that is, of course, unless he could get himself
(43:10):
a great defense attorney, and you bet he did. So
you might know this guy. His name is John Henry Brown,
and it is the same John Henry Brown who once
defended Ted Bundy. So in twenty twelve, Colton pleaded guilty
to multiple federal charges, and he was sentenced to six
and a half years in prison. He went on to
service time really without any incident, surprisingly because you would
(43:34):
think that the Barefoot Bandit would like Barefoot band It
his way right out of prison as his last act
of just like completely expanding about it. But absolutely, he
definitely thought about it. He definitely thought about it. But
after his release, his legitimate release in twenty sixteen, Colton
reportedly went to a halfway house and worked in construction
(43:57):
and expressed interest in becoming an aviation mechanic, which definitely
makes sense might be a great career path for him.
He definitely was persistent and he had at least a
little bit of knowledge already going into it, so maybe
that would be a good thing for him. But now
that the media circus has moved on his story, of course,
lingers as one of the weirdest true crime rabbit holes
that we've ever been down. We actually years ago talked
(44:20):
about this story for our Patreon listeners. It's been such
a long time ago. They did a documentary about this.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
It's on Amazon Prime. It's not great, but there's like
forty eight hours. I thought, it's like a weirdly animated
thing in part so many feet. One time he's just
sitting in the plane. I rewatched it and just his
foot is up there in the most odd way you
could ever put your foot. But I'm like, we get it,
he's barefoot. They just couldn't stop have a very hard
(44:47):
time with the barefoot thing. You gotta be honest, too much, I.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Mean, boy bare feet, Like yeah, okay, yeah, you you
really brought too much.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
That is way too much. But of course we know
Colton wasn't actually violent unless you count the aggressiveness he
portrayed his feet. The amount of times I've seen this
kid's feet is upsetting and unsettling. But of course it
wasn't exactly harmless. He was failed by all the adults
in his life, really, by the system and by the
structures that were supposed to protect him, and he learned
(45:20):
to survive on his own, and somewhere along the way,
survival turns into a spectacle, and thanks to internet hype
and media fascination, that spectacle turns into legend. Really, but
behind all the headlines and memes is a boy who
really never had a fair shot. Of course, you know,
there's a ripple effect of his actions, and it stretches far.
(45:40):
It's in people's homes, it's in their communities, and in
the lives of people who are still dealing with the consequences.
I will say from that documentary, this is kind of
peeling back what I just said. But there's a lady
who I guess Colton had ran through her yard and
she took the footprints made like casings and tried. I
saw them on eBay and I want to know if
(46:02):
she sold them, but she was like standing up in
the documentary with two feet and I was like, lady,
this is too far. We've gone way too far. So yeah,
So that's really the story of Colton and his barefoot
banded bandit badness.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Wow, what a great story. And I'm from Washington State
and i'd never heard of it.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Really.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yeah, I didn't know this one in real time. I
will say, I'm normally like pretty good on those things.
I didn't know this and one in real time, but
I've been fascinated by it ever since.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Wow, it's so interesting, and you know you're right, like
he's breaking in people's home, he is causing some level
of damage and fear, but you can really also feel
for him, like he was this kid that really never
fit into society and maybe didn't really have a chance.
So then he was like, I'm just going to make
my own way and do whatever I want, and was clearly,
(46:52):
you know, it is clearly intelligent in some way, and.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
He is resourceful. You cannot say that he's not resourceful.
He paid attention and kind of he was always one
step ahead. Obviously he knew what he was doing. I mean,
and I don't I genuinely don't believe that he was
trying to like harm or scare anyone. For sure. I
think it was just him just trying to take care
of himself and to get by. For sure.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I don't know what the job is, but there's a
very specific job out there for Colton.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
Can you even imagine. And when you were saying Mandy
earlier about the planes being stolen and how that's like
a federal offense or whatever, it's so funny because you
know there is somebody in the FBI whose job is
like plane recovery or something. We always run into that.
You'll be like some FBI agent in charge of art theft.
I'm like, really, but I mean, I guess it does
make sense. So there's a job for Colton, and there's
(47:43):
a job for everyone.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
I had never heard of the Barefoot bandit that I
hadn't either, and I was good and I'm from the Northwest.
Yeah I know, and you had somehow that slipped by.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
They did such a good job of telling the story.
They're so delightful. I loved how much he loved his dog.
I know, like anytime someone loves dogs, I have to
have a little bit of a soft spot for them totally.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
I actually remember when I was adopting my last dog, Bunker,
who you you know, rip iip. I was at the
Lacity shelter and there was this beautiful dog there. This
was before we found Bunker, and I asked if I
could like meet this dog. And so my husband and
I go in to meet with this dog and the
(48:28):
person who is in there from the shelter is like, oh,
don't get attached. His owner is going to be back
for him. Like the dog gets out all the time.
The owner just goes and gets the dog back, and
he is an escape artist, just like jumping over every fence.
And I'm like, it reminded me of the Barefoot bandit
like they cannot be.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Separated, always slipping between your fingers. Yes, yes, well I
have a wreck actually for great Day.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
So this is a documentary and it actually premiered back
in twenty eleven on EHBO and it's called There's Something
Wrong with Aunt Diane. And the documentary is about Diane
Schuler and a terrible car accident that she gets into
where there's multiple fatalities and sort of what leads to
(49:13):
the crash and unpacking what was going on for Diane
that the family was unaware of that probably led to
this crash. It was just a really powerful examination of
like how well you can know someone and also be
unaware of their struggles.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
There's like there were some dark secrets that were revealed.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yes, yes, and it's incredibly heavy and sad, but it's
also there's you can see despite, you know, because she
was driving, So it's like, despite what happened with the
crash and the death that came from this crash, there
was so much love for her from so many of
her family members still that it has always just stayed
with me because I thought it was a really dynamic
(49:55):
look at a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Is there a trial or a criminal aspect to this.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
You know, I don't remember if there was any sort
of like post mortem charges. I wouldn't think so, but
I don't recall exactly. But yeah, there's one interview in
particular that stands out so much to me. And I
don't even want to give it anything away, but yeah,
you should watch it. It's powerful and it's one that I
think probably not a lot of people have seen.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, what is it called again?
Speaker 2 (50:22):
There's something wrong with Aunt Diane.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
I'll put it on my list. I have to tell you,
I just watched a documentary. I don't really have a recommendation,
but I'm just gonna mention this one because this is
one that you recommended to me, not on air, just
on personal text message. Okay, love has won. Yeah, you
recently recommended this to me, and I was shocked, and
I think you were shocked too that neither of us
(50:46):
had seen this yet, because it came out in twenty
twenty three, I think. And it's about the Amy Carlson,
her group. She was this sort of she called herself
mother God. She had a group of followers and she
was found dead in a home in Colorado. And I
can't remember what year she died, but her followers were
(51:07):
still there. Her followers were still there, And we talked
about this years ago, like as it was breaking news.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah, as news of her death was starting to make headlines.
We were working on another show and the story came
up and we actually reached out about it. And I
think the person we made some contact with was her son,
who she was estranged from. But there was so much
going on and so many people working on the story
already that it wasn't the right place for us to
(51:37):
be spending our time. But the documentary is so unique
because it has so much access to believers followers, and
you don't usually get that.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
I think they must have started filming right after she died,
because they have some very early footage of her followers
doing interviews who still believe in her. And I mean
that must have Just the trust that this documentary filmmaker
must have had to build with them is really impressive.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
It was also impressive. I mean, you and I talked
about this so much. It's like, especially because we've worked
on cult stories, is that these interviews, you never felt
like the director, the producer, the person behind the camera
was poking any fun at them. I mean, yes, those
are you know, probably considered pretty outrageous beliefs that these
(52:27):
people have, but it never felt like we were laughing
at them. Yeah, it was just like an eye opening
view into like, wow, they were really in this.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
No, I totally agree, and that was really impressive. And
I like that a lot because it would have been
so easy to make fun of these people, and I
really felt like they never did that. It was really
pretty empathetic viewpoint.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Like.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Also, most of the people that were in this cult
seem like very kind people that just like really went
down a rabbit hole and believe some things that are
like pretty out there. But one of the things also
that makes the documentary so great is that part of
what this, you know, I'm going to call them a cult.
I think that's fair to say Colt was doing is
(53:10):
they were live streaming. They were selling products, crystals, tinctures,
and so part of that brand building is they were
live streaming a lot. So there's just so much archival
footage of them live streaming over the years. So it
is such a well done documentary. I loved it and
I would recommend it to anyone. Same Love has One,
(53:32):
Love has One? Well, that was our episode this week.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Thanks for listening and we'll see you guys soon. I
If you have a story for us, we would love
to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly
rightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram
at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
by me Hannah Smith and me Patia Eating. Our producers
are Tom Brivogel and Alexis Samarosi. This episodd was mixed
by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
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