The Night Ellen Was Kidnapped

When Ellen was in college, she was kidnapped after leaving her shift at Applebee’s. She recounts the terrifying hour that followed as she was driven around the city, unsure if she would make it out alive.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
He just like reached through the window and put a
gun to my head and told me not to look
at him or he would shoot me.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
I'm Patia Eaton. This week, we're speaking with a listener
of the show. Ellen tells us about something that happened
to her back when she was in college. She endured
a bizarre and terrifying kidnapping. There's a lot that's noteworthy
about Ellen's story, especially how she reacted in the moment
and the ripple effects of this event in her life.
Let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
My name is Ellen. I am originally from Columbus, Ohio,
and I currently live in Cleveland, Ohio. So Ohio state
is there. So it's definitely got the feel of like
a college town. Like where we lived was a pretty
like safe area, you know, we were outside a lot,
like just running around and having fun. So I went
away to college in Pennsylvania for a couple of years

(01:19):
and I was playing soccer at a small private school there,
and then I decided to move back to Columbus. I
just wanted to be closer to my family, and I'd
also had like a sports injury and wanted to save
some money.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
This was two thousand and six. Ellen was twenty two
and working her way through college at Ohio State, and
when she wasn't in class, she was waiting tables at
a local Applebee's.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, like there's a bit of like a camaraderie. I
think that develops, especially when you're working in like the
serving industry, just because it's not like the most fun thing.
You know, customers can be tough, and so I was
just good friend with a lot of the people I
worked with, and so there were a lot of times
where we would all, like after a shift, everybody would

(02:06):
go out just you know, to go off steam and
hang out. So I was pretty much just working hard
in school and then working at the restaurant, and then
when I wasn't doing either of those things, I was
usually you know, out with friends.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Take us to January two thousand and six, the day
in question. What do you remember about that day?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
So it was a Saturday, and I was working a
double shift, so you know, the lunch shift and then
the evening shift. In general, I remember having kind of
like a bad day, like I can't remember exactly, but
I think I had gone to like get breakfast or
lunch before my shift, and I saw like an ex
boyfriend with a girl, or like there was something that
happened that I was kind of upset, you know, when

(02:51):
I went into work. And then January is just kind
of a slow time in the restaurant industry because the
holidays have just passed. So the day was like pretty slow.
I didn't make a lot of money my shift, and
then a group of friends who worked there but weren't
working that day came into the restaurant just to like
hang out, have a drink sea people, and so I

(03:13):
talked to them and then we agreed that since my
shift was almost over, that I would just join them
and then we would go out to like another restaurant
that was nearby. And my shift ended around nine pm
is when I got cut and put it out.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Across from the Applebee's was a big shopping center with
a movie theater, restaurants, and stores. This is where Ellen
and her friends planned to go. But separating the Applebee's
from the shopping center was this busy four lane road
not super pedestrian friendly. They would drive, not walk, across
the street. It was also January in Ohio, so by

(03:48):
nine pm it was cold and dark outside. Ellen and
her friends left the apple Bee's together. Her friends, who
hadn't been working that night, parked in the apple Bee's
parking lot, but not Ellen. Employees on shift typically parked
in a different area behind Applebee's, across a service road
and into this parking lot of a strip mall. Ellen

(04:09):
and her friends all hustled through the cold to their cars,
and her friend said they'd see her across the street
in a few minutes.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
So even though we walked out together, they walked kind
of quickly. Their cars were right there. And then I
walked by myself in the back area the back parking
lot to my car, which was something I did all
the time, so it wasn't like weird. And even though
it was dark, it was nine pm, and you know,
like I was twenty two, so that was like five

(04:37):
pm for me back then, you know, like it didn't
seem late to me. So I was definitely like feeling
pretty comfortable, you know, just doing something pretty normal and
routine for me, just walk into my car and then
you know, going to meet my friend. So there was
no like alarm bells or red flags going off. So
I saw a man in that parking lot like while

(04:58):
I was walking, which was a little it weird because
there's just no real reason to be in the very
far back of like a big parking lot like that.
But it also wasn't super weird. I mean, it was
a fairly busy area, so I just didn't really think
much about it. I figured he was walking from somewhere,
and I just got in.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
My car, and so what happened after you got in
your car?

Speaker 2 (05:21):
So I got in my car, and because it was
January in Ohio, it was cold, and I just let
my car warm up for a couple of minutes. It
was something I always did. I had kind of an
older car, so I was just letting it warm up
for just a second. And then while I was sitting there,
the man that I saw in the parking lot tapped

(05:43):
on my window. You know. I looked over and I
just really instinctively rolled my window down, like reflexively, I guess,
without thinking. I just rolled my window down because at
the time, I guess just like my only experience with somebody,
you know, tapping on your window had been if they
needed help, or maybe you know, they wanted to tell
me something about my car or something like that, which

(06:04):
is what he did. He immediately was like, hey, you
have a flat tire. And one of the things I
noticed is that. So I drove like a little sedan,
a little niece on sedan. And normally, like if you
were trying to talk to somebody in a car and
you were outside standing, you'd like bend down right to
look at them, and he didn't do that. He stood straight,

(06:26):
and he stood to the side, so I didn't actually
ever see his face. So he said I had a
flat tire, and then really quickly my first thought was
just like, oh, I have kind of new tires. I
didn't notice anything, so like I just immediately started thinking
about like, oh, no, I have a flat tire. What
am I going to do? And while I was thinking,
I'm sure it was like half a second, but while

(06:47):
I was thinking that, he just like reached through the
window and put a gun to my head and told
me not to look at him or he would shoot me.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Allen doesn't remember exactly what happened next, but she does
know that she just did what she was told. She
closed her eyes when he said close your eyes. And
he must have told her to move because she ended
up on the passenger side of the car in an
kneeling position, So my.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Knees were on the floor, and then my hands and
my head were on the seat, the passenger seat, and
then he put something over my head that I actually
think might have been my apron from serving, but it
just felt like like a cloth bag, like some kind
of cloth something over my head so that I couldn't see.
And he obviously got in the car in the driver's seat,

(07:36):
and then he kept the gun for most of the time.
He must have moved it when he started driving, but
he kept the gun on my back most of this time.
And then he also had me like he moved my
hand so that I could touch the gun, and I
guess just like to prove to me that it was
a real gun, which I didn't really have any experience
with guns, but you know, it certainly felt real.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
And you didn't get a good look at him. Do
you remember anything about like the sound of his voice
or anything.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
It was an adult voice, like he was definitely like
a man, not like a younger kid. The only like
detail I really got of him was he'd been wearing
like a camouflage print jacket or coat. And then besides that,
again he was like average height, like average weight, like
there was nothing like really like specific that stuck out

(08:27):
to me.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
So he gets into the driver's seat and he's now
driving the car.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, so he starts to drive the car. I think
he might have taken my money before he pulled out.
I can't remember the exact sequence, but I'm pretty sure
right away he did take any money I had. So
I gave him like the cash I made that day
from my apron, which again wasn't very much because it
had been such a slow day, but I gave him
the cash I had anything I had in my wallet. Weirdly,

(08:56):
he didn't ask for my wallet, but he did ask
for a credit cards, which I didn't have any credit
cards at the time. I just had my debit card,
so I gave him my debit card, and then I
believe as soon as he had the money, he started driving.
So the window was all the way down. I had
one of those automatic windows, you know, where you hit
it and it just rolls all the way down. But
a weird thing about my car was that it was

(09:19):
really hard to get the window back up. I knew
how to do it. It was one of those things you
know when you have older cars, there's like weird quirks
to them, so like you had to push the button
in this exact right way, and he couldn't do it.
He didn't know the trick. So the window actually stayed
open the whole time. So the window was open, and
again it was January, so it was cold, so I

(09:40):
was shaking. I'm sure I was probably shaking out of fear,
but I was also shaken just because it was really
cold because he started driving and that window was all
the way down. The other thing was that my car
was a stick shift, so it was a manual transmission.
It was like a point of pride for me that
I could drive a stick and so I was sort
of proud of that. And then he like he got

(10:01):
it going. He was able to drive it, but getting
out of the parking lot was a little rough. I
think he stilled it a couple of times, striking, and
he actually said something to me. I remember he said like, oh,
I bet you thought I couldn't drive your car, which
I thought was a weird thing to say, because like,
obviously I hadn't thought anything about this, Like I didn't
know you were going to get in my car, so yeah,
so I think I just said something like, oh, no,

(10:23):
you're doing great or something along those lines.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I mean, yeah, It's like I wouldn't be in my
car right now if I had thought anything about you
trying to drive it. Right when he gets into your
car and pushes you to the passenger side, that's all
kind of a blurb. And in that sort of blurry
moment is when he says, you know, I want credit
card to step a cards cash, and you give him
what you have, which is not a lot so debit card.
And from that point, when he's driving out of the

(10:49):
parking lot, what is he saying to you? What is
he saying to you?

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Period? I feel like he talked most of the time.
There might have been like a few moments where we
were just driving in silence, but he talked a lot.
So like right away when he started driving, I said,
you know, like after I gave him all my money,
and I was just like, you can have my car.
Just let me, you know, let me go. Can you

(11:13):
let me go? You can have all my money, you
can have my car. And he said, pretty seriously, why
would I want your car. I don't have any use
for your car. At that moment, I was like, okay,
well then what's happening, Like this isn't just a robbery obviously,
like he wants me, Like I was just kind of
trying to figure out what's going on. He talked a

(11:35):
lot about the trailer, like he would say that he
was going to put me in a trailer. He would
say things about like selling me, and he talked a
lot about like that he was working with a group
of people, and he would say that I was really
lucky to be dealing with him because all of these
other people were way worse. Everything was like a threat,

(11:58):
like if I acted up, or if I didn't listen
to him, or if I looked at him, then things
would get worse. I would have to deal with these
other people or whatever. He asked me my name, which
I told him, and then he would ask weird things,
like he asked me if I was a virgin and
then started talking about how they pay more for virgins.
At some point, I think he asked me if I'd

(12:19):
ever been to Europe and I said no, and he said, well,
you'll be there tomorrow, like that's where the trailer is going.
So he would say, like just a lot of things
like that that were weird, but obviously at the time
very scary and just like threatening. My reaction, I don't

(12:39):
know that I really like thought about it. I think
when you're in a situation like this, your body, you know,
just reacts. I'm normally a really emotional person. I cry
really easily, and you know, like I usually have pretty
big reactions, but in this case, I think my body
just kind of did what it needed to do, and
I was able to stay pretty calm. I just answered

(13:00):
his questions and just talked to him. I tried to
just talk to him like people talk to each other.
And that wasn't something I really thought about at the time.
It was just kind of a reaction.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Ellen was terrified, and rightfully so. The stranger had just
kidnapped her and was now threatening all kinds of dangerous
and violent things, and yet Ellen stayed remarkably calm. She
didn't want to do anything to escalate this situation, so
she acted as if she wasn't scared for her life.
She spoke to him as if everything was totally fine,

(13:42):
as if he were just a man. She had met
in a normal scenario. He drove them to a bank
and went through the drive through atm he'd already taken
her debit card, and now he asked for her pen number,
and she gave it to him.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
He asked me how much money I had in my
bank account, which was a very small amount because I
was a college student, and I found out later I
guess that he took out the exactly amount that I said,
which I thought was a little weird that he believed
me on that didn't try to get more.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
Do you feel comfortable telling us how much money he
took out?

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Oh? Sure, yeah, it was like one hundred and sixty
dollars or something like that. Like it was less than
two hundred dollars. It was a small amount, which is
why I was surprised that he didn't, like, try to
get more.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Did you have more money than that in your bank account?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
I didn't. I was very honest with him and told
him exactly what I had. Because it was such a
low number, I think I was worried that, like, it
wouldn't be enough, so I just told him exactly what
I had in my account, or as much as I
don't know that I knew like do this and how
much money was in there, but I gave what I
the best that I could recall. But once he got

(14:50):
the money out of the bank, we stopped in that
parking lot and we sat there for a long time,
and that was when he continued to talk about the
trailer and he started telling me that he needed to
check me for wires, like if I was wearing a wire.
I felt like that was such a weird thing to say,
like why would I be wearing a wire? But it
became pretty apparent that it was more of an excuse

(15:12):
just to like touch me, so he would like put
his hands under my shirt. He did that a couple times,
I think, while we were sitting there, and in one
of the times he did start to like unbuckle my
pants and I just asked him not to. I told
him that I was on my period and I said,
could you please not? And he amazingly stopped and he

(15:33):
didn't do anything else.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
And this whole time, still your face is down, and
does he still have like a gun pointed at you.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
I feel like, because my car was a stick, he
probably had to take it off me when he was driving.
But I know that for a good portion of the
time he had it pressed up against my back, and
if he did take it away, I feel like he
would put it back periodically just to like remind me
that it was there and he had the gun. Most

(16:04):
of what he was saying and doing was just like
threats to just make sure that I complied, and you
know I did.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
While her kidnapper threatened her life, jabbed a gun into
her back repeatedly, and touched her body in unwanted ways,
Ellen stayed calm and focused. She studied him, his voice,
his words, assessing how best to interact with him to
her advantage, what angered him, what kept him calm, All
of this pointing towards the same goal, to survive, this,

(16:37):
to stay alive. Almost twenty years later, she still remembers
the sound and quality of his voice.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
He kept kind of like almost like an urly calm demeanor.
He spoke pretty like evenly and calmly the whole time,
but it was very like he was serious when he talked.
He felt very threatening without being like chaotic, Like it
wasn't like chaotic or like violent in that way. At

(17:06):
some point, I think when we were sitting in a
big parking lot, or maybe a little later he started
talking in a different language that sounded like German like,
almost like he was talking to himself, Like there were
some times where it almost seemed like he was just
kind of like muttering to himself. And he told me

(17:27):
that I reminded him of someone named Rachel, and the
way that he said that made me feel like Rachel
was somebody like that he liked, you know, like I
don't know who she was. He never said it, but
it was like a good thing. I think for me,
it felt like a good thing that I reminded him
of this person. And then after that he called me
Rachel a couple of times. When he did that, his

(17:49):
voice got a little softer, and he felt a little
bit more like far away, that makes sense, like he
was kind of like more within his thoughts than he
was present in the car. I do remember thinking about
just how strange it was that he was calling me Rachel,
but I made the decision not to correct him.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, because you got that sense in that moment by
the tone of his voice. Oh, I think Rachel is
someone that he is fond of, And so I'm guessing
that that's translating to it's a good thing that I
remind him of Rachel, and even if he thinks I'm Rachel,
then maybe he won't hurt me. Is that the sort
of the like quick second like train of thought.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
I think it was. I didn't want to correct him
and kind of break him out of whatever he was in, Like,
I didn't want to make him feel like he was wrong.
I didn't want to correct him. I wanted to make
sure he felt like he was in control. It seemed
that as long as he was kind of thinking about Rachel,
that that was a good thing.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, and so you know, you started off in the
parking lot behind the Applebee's, and then he's driving. At
some point he goes to the bank, and then he
goes to the bank parking lot, and then does he
continue to drive.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, so we were stopped for a while, and I
had a tough time keeping track of time. We were
parked in that bank parking lot for what was probably
like ten minutes, but I honestly don't know. And then yeah,
we started driving again. But he didn't ever tell me
where we were going. When he started driving, he did
say a couple times he said, don't worry, it'll all

(19:22):
be over soon. It wasn't like in a comforting way,
so I didn't quite know what that meant, Like was
he just going to drop me off somewhere? Was he
going to take me to this trailer? Was he going
to kill me? Like? You know, I just didn't know.
But it didn't seem like any of it was a
good option.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, with this very eerie comment, don't worry, It'll all
be over soon. Was there ever a part of you
that thought maybe I should try to jump out of
the car.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah. One of the things I forgot to mention is
that I had a little like flip phone and it
was small enough to hold in my hand. Instead of
wearing a coat because I was twenty two and I
didn't like to wear coats. I just had like a
hooded sweatshirt on that i'd put over my T shirt.
And my phone was in my pocket and so I

(20:15):
had that and I remember thinking right away at the beginning,
like can I do something with this, Can I, you know,
call for help? But because like he was so close
and he had the gun either on me or you know,
right next to me, and because it was a flip phone,
it was like the only way I could think to
use it would be to like flip it open, and
then I would have to either like call or text,

(20:37):
and texting back then was like, you know, on the
little number pad. So I just like I couldn't think
of a good way to use it that I felt
like was not super high risk. So I kept a
hold of my phone in my hand, and it was
buzzing a lot because obviously, like my friends who I
was supposed to meet were wondering where I was, so

(20:58):
they were calling and texting me. So I would just
keep it in my hand and every time it would
go off, I would hit you know, the little silence button.
So he didn't notice. Looking back now, I'm like, oh,
he didn't ask for my phone, But it was two
thousand and six and I didn't know how well he
was at the time, but it was obvious that he
was not a young person, so maybe he just didn't
think that I wouldn't even have a phone because he

(21:19):
never asked me for it. So I had that in
my hand, and then I did think about could I
open the door and get out, but because I couldn't
see anything at the time, it didn't seem like it
made a lot of sense, just because like if we
were driving, I wouldn't know were there are cars next
to us, you know, like I wouldn't know. And then

(21:41):
if we were stopped, it seemed like he would be
able to shoot me in the time it would take
me to actually open the car and get out. So yeah,
I thought about it. It definitely was still an option.
I felt like if things like escalated to the point
where maybe I felt like I had to, but I
did kind of like weigh things out, and it seemed
like it would have been too risky like to do it.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, that makes total sense. Did he ever say anything
to you during this time of driving around parking about
why he did this, why he targeted you.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
No, he didn't. We drove again and then we did
park That's when he sort of ramped up, like the
threats that he started talking about how he had been
watching me, and he made it sound like he knew
that I would be coming out of the restaurant because
he had been watching me, or and he would tell
me that he knew where I lived. He started talking

(22:38):
about like if I told anybody about him, then he
would come after me and my family because he knew
where we lived, which was obviously terrifying. But he was
starting to talk about like, you know, he was saying
things like if you tell anyone or like so that
started to make me think like, Okay, maybe he's going
to let me go because he's he's saying all of

(23:01):
these things about like why I can't go to the
police or why I can't tell anybody because he knows
where I live, you know, is my family, he knows
my friends, and he would come after us if I
said something. So it was very scary, but also, like
you know, was making me think that there might actually
be a way out of this.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, it's a very different conversation, even though the situation
is the same. He's holding a gun, him saying something
like I'm going to take you to a trailer. You're
going to go to Europe. It's very different from Okay,
don't tell anyone about this.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
You know.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Did you say anything in that moment back to him.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
I'm pretty sure I just was like as reassuring as
I could be, Like I just kept saying like, oh, no,
of course I wouldn't tell anybody. I wouldn't, I wouldn't
do that that kind of a thing. I just tried
to be as reassuring as I could that I was
listening to him and I was going to follow his instructions.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, And so then how did it end?

Speaker 2 (24:04):
So, you know, I was starting to feel like maybe
he would let me go, and I still had my
phone in my pocket and it buzzed, and I must
have just moved my elbow a little bit, like more
than I realized, but he noticed me move and so
he immediately was like, what was that. And that was
the only time that he got kind of like, you know,

(24:25):
like he raised his voice that he immediately was like,
what are you doing? And so I just like I
took my hand out of my pocket with my phone
and I just like put it out and I was like,
it's just my phone. You can have it, you know,
take it.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
This entire time, Ellen had clung to the fact that
she still had her phone. It was her secret lifeline.
She had hoped he would let her go. But now
if he did let her go, if he dropped her
off in some random part of the city, she would
be without a car and without a phone. And he
was angry when you found out that she had this phone.

(24:59):
So now she was where that he wouldn't let her go.
And that he might follow through with his threats to
harm her. But then he continued to threaten her in
a way that was hopeful. Instead of threatening to have
her killed or to traffick her overseas, now he was
threatening to come after her if she went to the police.
He said he had her phone, so he wouldn't just

(25:21):
come after her, he would come after her friends and
her family. Of course, that was scary, but it also
indicated that he was going to let her go. Why
else would he be worried about her going to the police.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
So shortly after that, he told me that he was
going to have me count to one hundred and then
he was going to get out of the car. But
if I opened my eyes or if I didn't finish
counting to one hundred, that he would know, like he
would watch me the whole time, and that you know, again,
he would come after me and shoot me. He said
this more than once. He would say that, then he
wouldn't get up, he wouldn't actually get out of the car,

(25:55):
he'd keep talking. Again. I was like, not quite sure
if it was actually going to happen or not. But
then he did say it again, and in this time
he did get out of the car. So I started
counting to one hundred. He got out of the car.
I made sure to count all the way to one hundred.
You know, I was pretty deliberate about that, And then

(26:17):
once I got to one hundred, I opened my eyes.
I took the bag or whatever it was off my
head and sat up to try and see where I was,
because I had no idea where he had driven me.
And that was when I realized that he had driven
me back to the Applebee's parking lot, and so I
was right where basically we had started, pretty much in
the exact same spot.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
So as you're counting to one hundred, your positioned where
your knees are on the floor of the passenger seat,
and so do you just open the door and jump
out or are you looking around to see if he's
still there.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
As soon as I opened my eyes, I know I look.
I'm sure I looked around to make sure he wasn't there.
But then as soon as I realized I was at
the restaurant, I just opened a door and then ran
like as fast as I could. I mentioned earlier that
my body's response, like while I was in the car was,
you know, to stay calm, and then as soon as

(27:15):
I think as soon as I realized that he was
gone and I was like seconds away from help, then
like everything I think that I had been holding in
just like released, and I started crying and running and
everything kind of came out, and I ran inside to
get help.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
When you ran back inside to get help, what did
you say and what was the response?

Speaker 2 (27:38):
So I ran up. It was such a weird feeling
of like going into the Applebee's and everything was exactly
as how I had just left it. People were still eating,
people were working, and it was just so weird to
me because I had just had such a crazy experience.
I saw a manager standing at the you know, the
point of sale system. I just ran up to and said,

(28:00):
call the police. I've been attacked. And I don't remember
exactly like what happened, like what she did. I know
she was trying to call me down because I was
crying and it was hard for me to get words out,
but I know I was clear about that. I said,
call the police, I've been attacked. And we actually had
a police officer who was there on Saturday nights. He

(28:23):
would come I think around ten pm on Saturday nights
it just got busy. We had like a late night
happy hour, and sometimes it would get a little rowdy.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Allen's parents were called and a few people went out
to look for her car. It was still there, the
keys lane in the driver's seat. Ellen's calm demeanor was gone.
It had kept her safe and clear headed during the kidnapping,
but now that she was out of immediate danger, the
reality of what she went through came crashing down on her.

(28:51):
She cried so hard she could barely speak. Fortunately, a
good friend of hers was working in the kitchen that night.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
And he came out and just I remember he just
sat with me because obviously people were asking me lots
of questions and I was having trouble, like forming complete sentences.
I was just so upset, and I remember he just
sat there with me and waited for my parents to
get there. My friends who I was supposed to meet
someone had called them and so they had come back.

(29:18):
So there was a lot of people around. It was
just a little bit like chaotic. Everybody wanted to know
what was going on. And then once my parents got there,
we went back into like through the kitchen, and then
in the back there wasn't an office. That's where we sat,
and then the police officer took my statement to the
official police report. I gave the statement. I remember him

(29:42):
asking me about what he looked like, if I could
give any kind of description, and I remember feeling like
I wish I had more to give, but I just
hadn't seen his face. So I remembered what he was wearing,
like the camouflash coat, and that he was like average size.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
What does it sort of feel like to be in
your body after going through something like that?

Speaker 2 (30:04):
It was tough. You know, he's still out there, and
I was really taking his threats seriously that he knew
where I lived. Obviously I had gone to the police,
so like I was just worried that he was going
to come after me. I lived with my brother at
the time, you know, in an apartment, and so I
just remember like begging him, like, don't go back to

(30:24):
the apartment. You can't stay there, Like what if he
comes like looking for me and he finds you, And
so he did he did. I think he stayed either
at my parents or somewhere, you know, at a friend's house.
I can't remember, but I stayed with my parents. I
don't remember why because I believe I had a room there,
but I slept on a couch, maybe just to like

(30:46):
be close to everybody. I'm I'm not sure. And yeah,
I remember like the first couple of nights. The first
night especially, I couldn't sleep. My mom brought me a
bunch of different books, and so I had like a
stack of books. And I'm somebody like in my normal life,
if I am having a hard day, I want to

(31:08):
like comfort eat, you know, like I want comfort food.
But this is one of the few instances where I
just like I couldn't I was so upset that I
couldn't eat. I remember like that forst night, throwing up
a few times, like just like I just felt physically sick.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
The words of her kidnapper were hard to forget. He
claimed to be associated with very dangerous people. He threatened
her family. He said he'd been following her, he knew
where she worked, where she lived. Ellen doesn't know exactly
how long the kidnapp being lasted. Time seemed to pass
in this totally different way during that event, but she

(31:44):
thinks it was actually only about one hour. One hour
that changed her perception of her own safety in the world.
Everything around her was the same before and after that
one hour, but Ellen was not. She grappled with how
to move forward. Knowing her attacker was still out there,
she worried he might come after her again.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
So, like, I felt like that, like the first couple
of days, and I stayed with my parents for about
a week, and I mean, it obviously got better, but
after the first couple of days, but yeah, it was
hard to sleep and eat, especially those first couple of nights.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, it's just so
scary to go through something like that. So the police
had questioned you that night about what had happened and
trying to get some information that they could work with
to maybe try to find this person and what happens
in the investigation into this.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, so there was a detective assigned to the case.
I talked to the detective on the phone a couple
of times, and it was pretty quick. It was definitely
like before. So this happened on a Saturday. It was
before the next Saturday, so I don't know if it
was like four or five days later, But she did
call me to let me know that they had found him.

(33:01):
So he had been caught apparently he had attacked four women,
and I was this second chronologically, so the first three,
me and the other two were really similar where he
approached us in our cars. But the fourth woman, I
don't know if he had gotten a little bit more

(33:22):
bold after getting away with it for three times, but
he approached and attacked her outside of her car, so
like in the parking lot as she was walking to
her car, and it was also the middle of the
day and there were people around, so she screamed and
he fled. I guess he had a car there because

(33:42):
he got into a car and drove away, but because
I think somebody saw it and called the police. At
least this is all what I remember. I'm not sure
I'm getting it totally right because it was told to me,
but I believe that he was chased. The police were
after him, and he ended up crashing his car and
they arrested him and he admitted to everything. So he

(34:04):
right off the bat confessed to everything. I do remember
like once I had that, like luckily that was just
a few days after and so once I knew that
he was caught, but a way, obviously I was still
super upset, but it helped reduce that anxiety of like,
he's going to come after me or he's going to
come after my family, And.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
So what can you tell us about who this person
was and what did you learn about him?

Speaker 2 (34:29):
He was older, I think he was in his fifties
or early sixties. He didn't have a criminal record. I
believe he was a veteran. He had a lot of grandkids, like,
he had a big family that were all very supportive
of him. From what I remember, he had recently gone
through a pretty tough time, Like I think that he

(34:51):
lost his wife to cancer and his brother was killed.
I don't really know, but I know he had gone
through some tough things and then yeah, he did these things.
At least from what I was told, there didn't really
seem to be a clearer mode of a reason for it.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
The person responsible for attacking Ellen, along with three other
women was a man named Henry Williamson. It was rather
shocking simply because he was a sixty seven year old
grandfather with no prior record. His family members said he'd
been struggling with depression and had been battling cancer. He
was on multiple medications because of that, but it's unclear

(35:31):
if those medications impacted his actions. An investigator in the
case told Ellen that Williamson had acted alone. Everything that
he told her in the car about working with this
group of people involved with international sex trafficking, he made
that up. He also had not been stocking Ellen prior
to the kidnapping. Instead, it's believed that he just happened

(35:53):
upon her in the parking lot that night, pure chance.
Henry Williamson's bond was set at five hundred thousand dollars
for having a gun and running from the police.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
And he was facing multiple charges but ends up accepting
a plea deal and not going to trial. We looked
up his case and it seems like he pled guilty
to a charge of aggravated robbery and was then sentenced
to nine years. Yes, how did it feel for you
to sort of learn he wouldn't be going to trial

(36:26):
and that he would have a nine year sentence.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
The initial charges included kidnapping, and then I think when
they did the plea it was just aggravated robbery is
what they ended up charging him with. So I went
down to the courthouse with my mom at some point
to read the psychological report. So they had done a
pretty big, lengthy report and I remember reading that and
just like learning a little bit more about what was

(36:51):
going on with him in some ways made it worse
because I think there was like something in there where
they asked him like why he targeted me, and he
just said like, oh, she just looked like she'd be
easy to rob, which just made me feel super vulnerable, Like,
you know, there was just like nothing I could have done,
you know, like he just saw me and did this.

(37:13):
Like at least at the time, I was okay with
the plea deal, you know, I just didn't have a
lot to compare it to, Like I'd never been in
a situation like that. I didn't like spend a lot
of time like researching like what an average sentence for
this kind of thing would be. I mostly just listened
to the prosecutor like what he told me. And I
think he might have been sick at the time he

(37:34):
was sentenced, so there was like a feeling of okay,
like he's older and he's sick, and like nine years
in that situation seemed, I don't know, like a longer
period than maybe it would have been in a different situation.
I mostly just really wanted to put it behind me
and to have it over with, and the main thing

(37:55):
I was concerned about was just making sure that he
wasn't allowed to be in a situation where, you know,
it could happen again, where he could do something like
that again.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
So you did go and speak at his sentencing hearing.
You know, what can you tell us about what you
remember from that experience as far as what you said
in your victim impact statement and what it was like
being in the courtroom that day.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
I remember just being nervous. I remember he kept his
head down pretty much the whole time, like he wasn't
making eye contact with me. Trying to remember. I feel
like he did say something like I think he might
have said that he was sorry for what he did.
I can't remember. Some of his family spoke. I remember
his granddaughter spoke about him helping her with her homework,

(38:41):
And it was just such a like a weird thing
for me to like see these people and to hear
her speak, because it was just such a totally different
thing than like, you know, that what I had seen.
I think I just really wanted to make it clear
what he had done to us. You know, I'm glad
that she got help with her homework, but like he

(39:03):
had done this, he did this thing to me, and
I was there, so I talked. I don't remember what
I said. It was pretty short. I think I just
you know, talked about like how it impacted me and
how I felt scared and vulnerable and alone. Our statements
were more for the judge because the judge was doing
the sentencing, so I think I talked more about like

(39:25):
how much I just wanted to make sure he didn't
have the opportunity to hurt anybody. Again.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
What was the impact that you felt from this experience.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
I mean, obviously at the very beginning, like I said,
you know, I couldn't sleep, But later on it was more.
I remember when I read that psychological report, which would
have been you know, probably like six months after, and
you know, you said, like, oh, she was just it
looked easy to rob. I remember having a really strong

(39:54):
reaction to that because I think like before all of
that happened, I'd in a college athlete, like I was
pretty good shape. I just like felt like a tough girl,
you know, like I felt like I could take care
of myself. I knew how to throw a punch, Like
I had this sort of like idea of myself of
like just being able to take care of myself. And

(40:17):
in reality, when all of this happened, I was just
completely powerless, Like there was a gun in this situation,
and I just felt like there was nothing that I
could do. And I think that just really made me
much more fearful in general, obviously much more aware of
my surroundings and just like you know, a hypervigilance that

(40:42):
you know, I didn't have before. You Know, I had
normal things like if I was in the middle of
the night walking down to alley by myself, I would
be a little scared, but in general, you know, I
was just kind of like going through life feeling pretty
good about like my ability to defend myself. And after that,
I just really felt like there's danger everywhere, you know,

(41:03):
like and I need to be prepared for it. So
I think like lasting impacts. My body still has like
physical reactions to like if I'm in the car and
somebody walks by, I'll tense up and I just immediately
get like kind of a panic state, like, oh, what's
this person doing. I'll lock my doors, even if it

(41:27):
seems silly. And I don't think I realized this. I
think it was sort of like a slow thing. But
I have felt like I need to start trying to
think of like everything that could happen. And so I
am like definitely like an ultra planner, you know, I
plan everything out and I try to anticipate every situation,

(41:48):
and if like anything goes wrong in my plans, like
if anything is something said and comes up and plans
are changed, it's hard. I have a tough time with
that because I need to know it exactly, like what
we're doing and when, so that I can have as
much control over the situations. And that was something that
I think I don't even really realized that was happening

(42:11):
until like years later, and I was like, oh yeah,
I really and like this where I don't think I
necessarily was before. And then like the other thing that
I would say was one of the reasons I wanted
to talk about it was just that like I did
just kind of go on, you know with my life.
I quit my job, I got a new job, I

(42:33):
graduated college, I stopped waiting tables, started my career. I
eventually got married, and you know, everybody close to me
knows what happened. I talk about it, but I don't
really talk about it very often, and I also think
sometimes I've had this is going to sound silly, but

(42:54):
like almost like this like imposter syndrome of like like
it wasn't like a terrible crime that you know, you
would do a documentary about. You know, I wasn't shot.
There were just like so many other terrible things that
could have happened, and so like there's that feeling of
like I just need to be thankful that like, you know,
he ended up letting me go and then I survived,

(43:16):
and I am, of course very thankful. But I think,
especially like years later, now that I'm so far moved
from it, I can also think about just like how
much of an impact this has had on my life,
and that like there's no reason that I shouldn't talk
about it. And there's probably other people who have been
through maybe not the same thing, but you know, similar

(43:36):
things and might feel the same way. So yeah, so
that was a lot of the reasons I felt like
it was important to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah, well, yeah, I'm so glad that you reached out
to us. I mean, it's also like this framework of
like storytelling, and sometimes you know, there's space created to
tell stories of what has happened to us, and sometimes
it's more limited or we want to just mention it
in conversation and and the crudest details are like, well, yeah,
you got away, he let you go, you know, and

(44:05):
your quote unquote okay, and thank goodness that that is
the situation. But it was very much a crime, and
it was kidnapping. It's interesting that that is a charge
that they ended up dropping and who knows why, you
know the complications of that, but it's like, that's what happened,
you know, was going on, and it's such a scary thing.

(44:25):
So I appreciate you coming on and telling us and
talking to us about it.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Oh thank you.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
I was just curious. How were you notified that he
had passed away from cancer?

Speaker 2 (44:40):
I actually think I got notified that he was petitioning
for early release. It kind of all got brought up
again at that point because he was dying, so I
knew that he was sick. But then yeah, someone called me,
so I missuming, you know, somebody from the prison system
or somewhere somebody called me and just basically me that
he had passed away. I remember being at work and

(45:05):
even though it didn't surprise me because I think I
had known that he was sick. It's still like affected
me more than I thought. Like I remember, like I
just I left. I talked to my manager and sad
like I had to leave, I went. I think I
just like walked my dog to the park and took
a really long walk. But it was just a strange feeling.
It just brought up everything again. And then it's also

(45:27):
like a weird feeling of like being glad that everything's over,
but then also like you don't want to like celebrate
a death, Like I wasn't like happy that he died,
but I was happy that it was just over, pretty
definitively over with that.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
And yeah, yeah, I can imagine that would be sort
of a complicated wave of emotions. You know, a lot
of I think life exists in this great area in
that way. Is there anything that we didn't ask you
that you phil is maybe an important detail that we missed,
or just something to include.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
One thing that I thought was kind of a fun
little detail. Funds might not be the right word. But
when I got my phone back, it took me a
while to get it back, so I think it had
been like a week or so, and I was able
to check my voicemails, and I had obviously like voicemails
and messages from my friends who I was supposed to meet,
but I also had a voicemail from my mom and

(46:26):
when I checked the time, it was basically right when
everything was happening, and she left me this voicemail that
I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember it like ford for word,
but it was something along the lines of like, Hey, Aleen,
I was just thinking about you. I just I feel
like maybe like maybe you're having a hard day or
a hard time, and I just like thought you might
want to talk, and so like I just want to

(46:48):
let you know I love you and I'm thinking about you,
and you know, I'll give a call later. And uh
So that was like a really sweet and nice message
to hear. And it's something that I think about a
lot because my mom passed away a couple of years ago,
and so when I think about that voice message, you know,
like she wasn't with me and somehow still had that

(47:08):
thought of like, you know, something might be going on
and that I might have needed her, and so I
like to think that that same is true now, you know,
when she sat with me that she still has that
understanding when something, you know, I'm going through a rough time.
So I thought that was kind of just like a
nice a nice thing that I had that she didn't

(47:29):
mention it to me, like at the time, I she
probably forgot she even loved it, So that was like
a nice thing. Like a week later that I just
had this this super sweet voicemail on my phone.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Well, she sounds like a really great mom.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
She was.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Sorry, I have a two year old, I have a daughter. Yeah,
I mean, I don't know. I totally believe in like
that connection between a person and their parents or a
parent and a child.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Is like it's just so big. It's just so big.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, And that's you know, I think it's obviously a
sweet moment and an otherwise incredibly traumatic situation. Well, thank
you so much.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
We really appreciate you reaching out and sharing your story.
And I think your story and I know Hannah feels
the same way as is important and it's a good
thing that it ended with you being safe and like
it doesn't lessen that it impacted your life.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Well, thank you. I know I said this in an email,
but I have really just loved our podcast. I think
what you're doing is really important, and I think you
just you do it in such a kind and thoughtful
and careful way, and so I just really appreciate that,
and I've really enjoyed listening to your interviews with other women,
So thank you.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
So Ellen wrote us an email and I immediately was like, oh, Hannah,
you should read this. I think we should speak with Ellen.
And in the email was sort of a reader's digest
version of her story of being kidnapped, and Ellen was
not certain that this was a story worth telling on

(49:17):
the show and said that for the same reason, she
really hadn't spoken to even many people in her life
about it. And I think that, you know, we've heard
this before from victims of prime or nefarious incidents, where
if they escaped physically unharmed, sometimes there's a bit of
a reluctance to fully acknowledge what happened to them.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah, it's like the facts of the matter, like, oh, look,
you're fine. That was you probably got scared, but you're alive,
you haven't been seriously harmed. So somehow it feels like
less salacious to people in some way. Yeah, but it's like,
shouldn't we be happy that she got out alive and
that she's okay.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Right, and can't we still talk about and reflect on
how this has impacted now so many different aspects of
her life. I mean, she said that prior to this incident,
she of course would roll down her window for a stranger,
assuming that they're there to help her or that they're
in need of help. And now because of what happened
to her, I don't think anyone could fault someone in

(50:22):
her position for no longer reacting that way.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
Yeah, the like sort of fear of strangers when she's
in her car was an interesting impact that is still
happening to her. And also I thought that the way
that she talked about like hypervigilance and feeling the need
to control everything was really poignant. So many people can
relate to that, even if you haven't gone through like

(50:46):
you haven't been kidnapped, but I totally see how if
you went through a situation where someone took control away
from you completely of like your safety, your vehicle, like
the idea of maybe even potentially your life, you would
be really like desperate to hold onto control absolutely.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Her sort of question around whether or not her story
had a place on the show or really anywhere. Almost
brought me back to some of the more like kind
of strange reactions that we had from a couple of
people to Durune's episode.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
I remember that yeaheah, where like she.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Didn't even get attacked enough or something. Just Banana's like that,
and you're thinking, that's a good thing that she was
not physically harmed more than she already was, I know,
and that should be something that we're really glad about
and not sort of saying, so stop telling your story,
It's not worth it to me.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Totally similar to Drune's story, coming so close to being
physically harmed or potentially killed, like you have to imagine
that it's not completely the same on your body, but
that fear is still there, Like your body is still
reacting in this like fight or flight mode, Like you

(52:01):
have all of that pumping through your body and your brain,
and so there are like very real physical consequences completely this.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Completely.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
I also was just like so fascinated by how she
talked about her just natural reaction was just to be
so calm and just to pretend like he was just
a dude who she met, And can you imagine being
in that scenario and having to be like, oh, yeah,
like you're doing a great job driving my stick shift car.
Like the amount of times that she had to be
like I needed to tell him that he was doing

(52:34):
a good job to keep safe.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
I was like, wow, oh yeah, And there's so much
we could say about this, But it's like, I think,
not everyone, probably very very very few people have ever
found themselves in a situation even close to similar to this. However,
I think most women have found themselves in a situation
where you feel uncomfortable and so you stroke the ego

(52:56):
of a man who's making you uncomfortable in order to
try to feel more comfortable or more safe, and.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, that sucks, totally. Yeah, it was relatable. Okay, So
I was curious about, you know, you had done some
research into Henry Williamson, the man who kidnapped her and
was eventually charged and then died in prison. There was
a note that he had cancer and he had been

(53:22):
going through treatment. We also heard that he was going
through like a lot of very difficult things in his
life when this happened. I was really curious about if
there was some kind of potential link between having cancer,
maybe like taking some medicines like chemotherapy drugs, and if
that could have any potential connection to mental health or
anything like that.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Right, because we don't exactly know why he did this.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
We don't like there was never really an explanation, yeah,
that we know of. So I did find an article
from the Journal of Psychiatric Research from twenty twenty four
and it said being diagnosed with cancer and coping with
fears around potential death might trigger acute distress. And previous
research found that patients with cancer are one point eight

(54:07):
five times more at risk of developing mental illness. And
there was an analysis done by the English Longitudinal Study
of Aging involving seven five hundred and eighty six adults
and about a thousand of them had cancer, and of
that like zero point three percent, so only nineteen people,
but they self reported hallucinations. So there is some potential

(54:30):
small association that cancer patients could have higher odds of hallucinating,
but is very unclear if that's like because of the cancer,
what type of cancer, and the treatment.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Or if it's like correlation not causation, where it's like, okay,
if you're reconciling that your life might be ending much
sooner than you thought or hoped. You know, maybe they're
sleepless nights, okay, sleep deprivation. Maybe you know, you're not
able to keep food down because of all of the
medication you're taking. I mean, there's so many factors at play.

(55:03):
I obviously have no idea, but yeah, the fact that
his family knew him as someone completely different for really
almost his entire life, you know, it tells you something
happened there totally.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
I think that's one of the bizarre things about this
case is that you know, he had no prior record.
When Ellen talked about being in court and that sort
of dissonance between his granddaughter saying, this is my grandpa
and he helps me with my homework, and that is
how his family knows him. She's like, that's sad, but
also it's very real that he attacked me and three

(55:38):
other women. So that's the same person that did that. Like,
how do you reconcile that?

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Right?

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah, I mean it's impossible, I think, and I mean
we've already said this, but the ripple effect, Right, you
have someone who is very clearly in the eyes of
the justice system of victim. You have Ellen and the
three other women that he attacked but you also have
his family members who are now suffering from watching this
person that they know as a really loving grandfather father.

(56:07):
You know, he's now a dangerous criminal and he's being
prosecuted that way, and I imagine that's a very difficult
place to be as.

Speaker 3 (56:15):
Well, totally, and to have like a parent die in
prison would be difficult.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yeah, that's just an impossible thing.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
I think.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Well, I'm so grateful that Ellen reached out and shared
her story with us. I thought it was unique. I'd
never heard a story quite like this, and I was
glad that she trusted us to tell it.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
See you guys next week.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
If you have a story for us, we would love
to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly
rightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram
at the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky at the
Knife Podcast.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
by me Hannah Smith.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
And me Paytia Eaton.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Our producers are Tom Bria Bogel and Alexis Samarosi. This
episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is
Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport artwork.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
By Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.