March 11, 2021 • 47 mins
Beauty. What is it? Who has it and who doesn’t. Does it really matter? Sure, everyone would probably like to be “beautiful” if given a choice, but does it actually matter? Kimberly Foster says yes. Actually she says hell, yes. The way a person is perceived in the world affects everything from job security to healthcare, which means there are real consequences for anyone brave enough to push back and opt out of the high heels, slinky dresses and eyelash extensions. //
Kimberly Foster is a writer, cultural critic and founder and editor-in-chief of For Harriet, a multi-platform digital community for Black women. For Harriet was founded in 2010. The site has been featured in the New York Times, ESSENCE, Forbes and Huffington Post. // https://www.youtube.com/user/ForHarrietdotcom
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a reduction of shondaland
Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. We're still not
extending the care that we need to the people who
are always going to be left out, who are always
going to be quote unquote ugly. And when I'm thinking
about what do I want an ideal society to be,
(00:20):
what I would want is even those people who don't
fit any beauty, ideal, any standard, right that you can
have access to the care that you need. Hello, and
welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I've become a huge
(00:42):
consumer of YouTube content lately, and one of the YouTube
channels I love is called for Harriet, which features the
cultural commentary, interviews, and nuanced critical perspectives of Kimberly Foster,
who centers the experiences of black women. Kimberly Foster is
a writer, cultural critic, and media contributor. She's also the
(01:03):
founder and editor in chief for Harriet, a multi platform
digital community, as well as a national live events series
recognized the leading voice online by teen Vogue and Huffington Post.
Kimberly's video commentaries on current events have accumulated millions of
views and appeared on owns, black women own the conversation.
(01:23):
She always has her finger on the pulse because she
is part of the pulse. Honey. Kimberly made a video
about beauty as a commodity that illuminated some of the
thoughts I already had about the subject and made me
think about so many other things. On today's episode, we're
going to be talking to the outspoken feminist and founder
about beauty as capital. I find her so inspiring and smart,
(01:49):
and she always makes me think about something I hadn't
considered before. Please enjoy my conversation with Kimberly Foster. Hello,
kim really, welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?
I am great? First of all, thanks so much for
the invitation. I said I'm great, But that's always a lie,
(02:11):
right like in COVID times. That's not real. But I'm okay.
I am good. I really value the fact that I
have a job and I am not sick and my
family is not sick. But every once in a while
I get a little set because life is going by
(02:32):
and I can't do the stuff I want to do.
But it's it's okay. I'm okay. I follow your channel,
your YouTube, channel. That's how it became aware of you
and love it, and now I follow you on Instagram,
et cetera. You've been so prolific during quarantine. From my view,
I feel like you're constantly putting out videos talking about
(02:53):
what's going on in the world right now, and for
me that it takes a toll, especially when we're talking
about things like racial justice and imprisoned, that abolition and
all they really intense, complicated things that you talk about
on your channel. Is that taking a toll on you emotionally?
How do you balance putting out content that is really
intense with like your I guess self care. Yeah. So
(03:15):
for the first six months of Quarantine, I was super prolific.
I was on it, and I know that I have
a cycle of using work to evade dealing with my emotions.
That's like a long running theme in my life. And
so I absolutely was diving head first into making stuff.
(03:36):
And people are at home, so they're gonna click and
watch and don't throw away your shot. Get in fun people,
And honestly that has paid off in a lot of ways.
But over the past couple of months, I have really
been feeling it like I'm not doing as much as
I need to be doing, and I'm letting myself down.
And I built this community and they expect things that
I'm not delivering. I definitely feel that right now that
(03:59):
has taken a huge emotional toll on me. And then
I do feel like I have a little bit of
seasonal effective disorder. I'm just hearing that and I'm taking
it in and I'm reminded of this phrase that I
learned years ago, I forget where, and the phrase is
I am enough. I have enough and I do enough.
And I've had so many moments over the years where
(04:21):
it's like I need to be doing more. I am
not successful enough, I'm letting people down. I need to
just keep going. And I know that it's not really
working for me anymore. That I that just going going doing.
It's not the best for my mental health physical health.
So I have to slim myself down. Is where I'm
at with all that. Yeah, yeah, I think it's really
(04:43):
difficult as a creator. I mean, because of the rhythms
of the Internet, we are used to being in constant
consumption mode. So what's the new thing, new TikTok, new
Instagram post, new tweeks, you know, and because I recognize
that is the expect patient, I do internalize that I
do want to be great at my job. I don't
(05:04):
want to be good at my job. I want to
be great. I want to believe a legacy. I want
to be exceptional. And I understand that people are turning
to me to maybe say things that they might not
have the words for, and I want to deliver that
for them. But I also do want to be gentle
with myself. I do want to extend myself the kind
of grace that I make it a point to extend
to other people. Yeah, what I've come to understand is
(05:27):
that I'm not going to be of use to anyone
if I'm physically, emotionally, psychologically depleted. That I must put
the life mask on myself first, and if it's not on,
then I'm not really going to be able to really
be of service in the way that I want to be.
Absolutely Yeah, I think it's always important to put that
out into the world. I know I can't hear it
(05:48):
enough for the folks who don't know you and your work.
Can you tell them about what for Harry it is
and how it all began. Absolutely so, I started for
it as a blog from my college dorm room a
decade ago, which sounds crazy. It is crazy that I'm
in my thirties right now, but let's not talk about that.
(06:10):
But yeah, I decided that I wanted to create a
space where I could have really thoughtful, intergenerational conversations about
black womanhood and black feminism in particular. I have really
a dedicated set of politics that I'm really committed to.
I wanted to have those progressive conversations in interesting and
(06:33):
innovative ways. And eventually it evolved from just being blogging
just written posts, to me making videos, and the YouTube
channel has really blown up over the past two years
eighteen months. The title for Harriet and you talked about
it being about black women, black women feminism. Why Harriet?
(06:55):
I just I think I know why? Um, but everyone sure?
So I founded the site on the day before June tenth,
and it's named for Harriet because of Harriet Tubman. I
always want to embody a liberatory politic. I want to
take risks. I don't want to be worried about what's popular,
(07:16):
and I feel like if there is a guiding light
or shining star, then it's absolutely for me going to
be a Harriet Tubman. Oh that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Um.
I love the way in which you talk about pop
culture and use pop culture as a way to critically
analyze systemic you know, structures like racism, sexism, et cetera.
(07:39):
And clearly watching your videos, I'm like, this woman has
read her bell Hooks. I'm a bell Hooks stand lover.
Do not get me started. The way the way you
talk about so many things, it's like a nuanced understanding
of Hooks that I feel like a lot of people
don't haven't really done that work with and it's it
(07:59):
really writing for me. And I just think bell Hooks
is so crucial, so crucial in so many different ways,
and so pop culture is the only thing you talk about.
But there's so many moments with pop culture that you
use this teachable moments. Why do you do that? Yeah?
So I Number one, I'm obsessed with pop culture. From
the time I was a little kid, was obsessed with movies,
(08:21):
and I was obsessed with the Internet and music and
read all the magazines and all that like. But as
I got older and my politics evolved, I recognized that
this stuff that I was consuming and internalizing. It's not harmless,
it's not a political There's so much stuff in there
that when you really dig into it, it connects to
(08:44):
all of these superstructures. It connects to feminism, it connects
to social justice. And when I decided that I wanted
to start creating content, I understood that I have all
of these deep political commitments. And sometimes it's really heavy
and people are like, you're using the jargon, what are
you talking about? And so using pop culture as an
(09:06):
entry way to get to those really deep sometimes heavy
conversations makes it accessible to folks who are outside of
the academy or who are not reading bell Hooks all
the time, who are not reading Patricia Hill Collins, Right,
you know it's the hook Well, bell Hooks is really
interesting in being accessible as well, right, she wrote in
a very specific way, so that people can access the
(09:30):
information even though she is an academic. That's lineups as
with her, Like, I feel like I referenced bell Hooks
all the time, because it's easy to feel like we
on YouTube who do this commentary stuff, like we're the
first people to do it, or we're innovating, like no,
like we are building on a foundation that has already
been set, and I think it's really important for us
(09:51):
to acknowledge that, like somebody like Bell Hooks, Black Looks,
come on, Okay, Like Black Looks is the first Bell
Hooks book I read, and it changed my life in
a very substantial way. And you know, I have traveled
the country doing college lectures and people would stand up
with these critiques of feminism and say white feminism ists
and white feminism, and I'm just excuse me. The way
(10:13):
I came to feminism was through people like Bell Hooks
and people like Audrey Lord. And it just it pisces
me off, if I'm being honest, when feminism is always
reduced to this this white feminism that like just totally
erases like centuries of work that black women have been doing,
that it's always been intersectional. Yes, it's deeply, deeply upsetting.
I mean it's especially upsetting when you think of the
(10:36):
work that those women did to make themselves known, to produce.
I mean, they had to found their own presses and
they booked their own speaking tours and like, but against
the white women, like, do not dismiss that, Like it's
it's really deep, it's really really deep. The main reason
I want to talk to you is because of this
specific post where you talked about beauty being a really
(11:00):
bad investment. And I think it hit me in such
an intense way because it was something that I understood
intellectually and in my gut, but I never really heard
someone put it into words, specifically the way that you
did around beauty as a commodity, beauty and capitalism. Um.
(11:20):
For me, I'm in this space as a black trans
woman who was an actress, and you know, I'm walked runways,
and I'm forty eight years old, and I'm sort of
in a lot of ways just getting started in my career,
and I'm in this anxiety around aging out. You know,
it's just really deep and it's complicated, and can you
talk to me a little bit about where your thoughts.
(11:40):
Beauty is a commodity and and all of that come from. Sure.
So I love to talk about beauty because a lot
of the conversations that I hear about it are just
really silly and disingenuous. You know a lot of that stuff.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you
just have to love yourself. No, when I'm talking about beauty,
(12:01):
I am talking about beauty as a form of structural inequality.
We have all of these hierarchies in the world, class, race, gender,
but we don't often talk about beauty as a way
that many people and women in particular, are exceptionally marginalized,
and we are expected to invest deeply in the pursuit
(12:22):
of beauty. If we don't naturally have what is deemed beautiful,
we are expected to spend all of our time and
all of our money chasing it. Right And if you
are not able to chase it, if you are not
able to acquire it, you're a failed woman. If you
don't have it, then you can just expect to be
on the margins. You can expect for people to not
hire you, You can expect to not be picked if
(12:44):
you desire a partner. Right Like, they are all of
these things that we just accept as natural, normal and inevitable,
but they're not right like, They're reinforced structurally all around
us all the time, and a lot of us are
participating in that. The first time I heard the phrase
pretty pretty vilege, Janet Mock, the writer now director, producer,
(13:04):
used the term to talk about her pretty privileged as
a black trans woman who was often assumed to be
SIS gender and it was really intense for me and
really important to hear someone say that, because I find
it's really rare and open. Her interview with her for
Super Soul Sunday, Oprah was like, thank you so much
for saying pretty privileged, because she was like, I talked
(13:25):
to so many beautiful women who don't seem to acknowledge
that that's a thing, that don't seem to acknowledge that
there are privileges that come with being considered beautiful, and
we should say being as very beautiful within I would
say SIS normative white supremacists, sort of patriarchal standards, right,
and so the the hierarchy, the inequality that comes with
that is really really deep. And as a trans woman,
(13:49):
I'm keenly aware too of the ways in which I'm evaluated,
right in terms of my femininity since I started my
medical transition twenty two years ago, in the ways in
which I'm sort of evaluated and expected to embody femininity
that are often deeply problematic. Remember when I was on
the cover of Time magazine and there were all of
these older, white late transitioning trans women who were so
(14:12):
upset that I all of a sudden with the face
of the trans community because I was dropped dead Gortis
in their in their eyes, and I was like, when
did I become When did I become dropped dead Gorgias.
I was like when, Because in my estimation, I was
always that trans woman who wasn't quote unquote possible enough.
I would go to trans parties and other trans women
(14:34):
would tell me how much surgery I needed to be
more possible. And that is really problematic language. I'm using
you to shorthand when I say passing. So I just
think about those experiences in the context of this conversation.
So something that I always have to underscore is when
I am laying out these theories about beauty as a commodity,
(14:54):
about beauty as the primary form of capital and thus
access to power that most women and have access to.
I am not doing it in a judgmental way. I
understand that we are all operating in these really coercive systems,
like there are incredible consequences if you opt out. You
want to get hired, you want to eat, you want
to have access to healthcare and stable housing. If you're
(15:16):
a woman, you're probably gonna do what you have to do.
And that means for a lot of us that we're
going to participate in the system and get our hair
done and put on makeup. And I know that I
was always as a kid encouraged because I'm a black
girl at a brown skin, kinky hair and all that
be feminine, put on the dress where the heels right,
to try to offset all of the stereotypes, the historical
(15:38):
baggage that my body contains as I moved through the world.
And so I understand the critiques right of saying, oh,
it really sucks that this is the kind of normative womanhood, right,
or like the kind of performance of femininity or gender
that is most celebrated and most visible. I just think
(15:59):
that often when we are trying to say you, she's
too pretty, and like, you know, I think Beyonce gets
this a lot right in the Beyonce thing. It's complicated.
It's complicated. I have feelings about it. But I do
think that if we are going to love those kinds
of critiques, we do also have to grapple with the reality. Right.
We have to understand that, you know, white supremacist society,
(16:20):
you have to play certain kinds of games and to
varying degrees. We're all playing, but like not playing means
that you're gonna be sideline, you're gonna be marginalized, you
might not be able to eight. So I just think
that like the nuance is really important. Absolutely absolutely Wow.
Bellhook Star said that we're all living in contradiction when
it comes to particularly the capitalist part of what is
(16:42):
required to survive, and so we have to just be
in the truth of that and and not go into
this uncritically. And I think that's the reality for me
that I'm very keenly aware. It's very tricky and it's
really complicated trying to maintain authenticity and integrity in these
systems where I'm also trying to survive and hopefully create
space for other people do exist as well. Oh honey,
(17:04):
how's that for a little truth after a tiny little break,
We've got so much more for you, alrighty, then let's
just dive right back in. They are these channels that
really target darker skin black women around being feminine. Right,
(17:26):
there's this sort of pushed to be like more feminine,
and there's a suggestion that like darker skinned women are
not portrayed femininely enough in the media. Do you have
thoughts about that, because this is a really interesting I'm
sure you do. Yeah, oh my, yeah, I have thoughts
about that. So I understand what motivates those channels. Life
(17:50):
is really hard. If you're a black woman, it's super hard.
If your dark skin, it's super hard. If you have
broad features, if you have kinky hair, And so what
can we do to ameliorate some of that violence? What
can we do to stop it? Right? And so, if
wearing the dress is gonna stop it, let's wear the dress.
(18:10):
If wearing the heels is gonna stop it, if talking
in the high voice is gonna stop it, let's do
that stuff. The problem is that doesn't really work. It
might work sometimes, but it's not going to work all
the time. And so what are you gonna do when
those kinds of performances fail you. My problem is that
a lot of those spaces and those channels aren't really
(18:32):
dealing with the reality of we're not treated poorly because
we don't put on dresses. That's not it, right, Like
an enslavement, when our fore mothers, our ancestors were being
brutalized and raped, it wasn't because they weren't putting on dresses. Contemporarily,
when black women who are birthing black people, when their
(18:52):
doctors ignore their pain and allow their babies to die, like,
it's not because you're not wearing dresses, it's because we're
navigating white supremacist capitalist patriarchy in which our beings are
not valuable, and there is no performance of femininity that's
going to be able to undo that. The only thing
that's really going to be able to undo that is
if we tip away and ultimately dismantle those structures. And
(19:16):
when and when I hear that and what I just
came up from me and what everything you said is
the deep pain underneath all of the sort of brutal
nature of the ways in which imperialist, wide supremacist, capitalist
patriarch is played out in the lives of black women specifically.
So it's like, what can we do to lessen the pain?
Then the trauma attached to all of that without a
(19:38):
critique of this system right probably places the problem with
a black women that like, our marginalization is our fault
when we'd say that we need to be more feminine,
and it sort of absolves the system of any responsibility.
And this is actually not it's not empowering, it's something
that you can aedge out of. It's something that you
you may still not be ait enough for someone. Right,
(20:01):
as much as I have in so many ways performed
a traditional kind of femininity in my life as a
trans woman, I'm not feminine enough for some people. I'll
never be a voice. I'm still really tall. Like, there's
just ways in which I fall short. You know. I
started the hashtag trans as Beautiful as a way to
sort of reckon with that, But like, there has to
(20:21):
be another way. There has to be another lens, another
gaze that we can engage with. I think feeling beautiful
is something that is actually really important I think for
us to have on an individual level. And I guess
with the proliferation of more plus size models, with more models,
you know, with disabilities and darker skin models, and is
(20:42):
there a way that beauty as capital can sort of
be revisioned away from those gazes that are problematic? Or
if we are making beauty a commodity, even if they're
different bodies and skin tones, are we still replicating the
same system. You know, this is something that I really
(21:02):
struggle with because I spend so much time on the Internet.
I spend so much time on social media, and I
recognize that there are so many women who are able
to find body positive Instagram pages or let's celebrate dark
skin Instagram pages, or even I follow up a young
girl who says, my acne is beautiful, and I'm like, oh,
(21:25):
I wish I had this when I was thirteen. Right,
So I get that it is important for you to
be able, for us all to be able to see
ourselves and feel affirmed and validated and good in our bodies.
I have trouble with this idea because I do feel
like a lot of it goes back to this thing
(21:46):
of we're afraid to be ugly. We don't want to
feel ugly, we don't want other people to call us ugly.
Can we pause for a second when you said we're
afraid to be ugly and I don't for whatever reason,
that hit me in my gut. Can you. I don't
want to stop your thoughts, but can you unpack that
a little bit what that means for you. Yeah. So,
(22:07):
in our quests to redefine beauty ideals, to expand the
definition of beauty, we want to pull more and more
people in because we want everybody to feel good. That's
a that's a worthy goal, I understand. But then the
flip side is everybody can't be in the bubble of beauty,
(22:27):
right Like we're trying to expand and rethink and reimagine,
but ultimately we're still setting boundaries. Were just setting boundaries
different places depending on who we are or how we
feel we're affected by the standard, or where we live
or what day of the week it is, And so
there are always going to be people left on the outside.
And what about those people? I don't think that in
(22:48):
our quest to do all of the stuff, which again
I get it, but we're still not extending the care
that we need to the people who are always going
to be left out, who are always going to be
quote unquote ugly. When I'm thinking about what do I
want an ideal society to be, what I would want
is even those people who don't fit any beauty ideal,
(23:09):
any standard, right that you can have access to the
care that you need, that you can have access to safety,
that you don't have to spend your life on the
treadmill of self doubt and anxiety and worry. And that's
only gonna happen if we dismantle that stuff like I
don't want to be I have to be the feminist
skill joy all the time and the Debbie Downer. But like, yeah,
(23:31):
every time you erect a new boundary, it's keeping people out,
and I just think it's important for us to underscore that.
I think about the capitalist piece of all of it, right,
I think for for a brand, it's like, oh, we
can bring a lot more people, and we have more customers,
and we have more people who feel seen and included
in so we can sell more product. And so I
think for in terms of a business model, it's great
(23:52):
to be inclusive. But that's a very Western value, the
right to be a consumer, right, Like I want to
be in on that right. Like when we are compelling
these fashion houses to to put plus size models on
the runway, it is about you don't want my business,
you don't want me to be able to buy your fire,
(24:13):
And it's like, oh, maybe we should question that desire. Yeah. Well,
some designers, I mean the late great Carlographel, I think
he literally said he didn't want women of certain sizes
wearing his clothes. And as an actress who has never
been a sample size, there are a lot of designers
that I've just never worn and probably never will wear
because I just I'm not the right size. Yeah yeah,
(24:34):
I mean, but again it goes back to the hierarchy thing.
But also as a black woman, we are taught to
view that rejection as a personal affront, like, how dare
you deny me the right to build my worth off
of what I can acquire. You're intentionally keeping me out.
That's anti American, you know. So I just think I
(24:57):
just want to I want people to interrogate just a
little bit. I think it's really really tricky right to
not be dismissed when you have an opinion that it's
outside of the status quo. To not be positioned, it's
just crazy radical who needs to be silenced. And I think,
like for me, when I think about critics of capitalists,
I think about critiques of predatory capitalism, right, and the
(25:19):
ways in which capitalism historically has preyed on certain people
and bodies, and that capitalism has already been predatory historically,
like just looking at the truth of how it functions.
And I say, this is someone who engages in capitalism,
is someone who wants to make money. You know who
I've been for most of my life, and that was
not cute, Like not knowing if if I'd be able
(25:40):
to pay the rent, not being able to go to
the dentist or go to the doctor, and all the
things that like you experience when you're poor. It's really
really not cute. Yeah, again, I think that I love this.
I think that this nuance is important because I understand
the fundamental exploitation that capitalism requires, but I also recognize
(26:04):
I'm gonna have to be my own safety net, and
so I'm gonna have to make financial decisions so that
I can go to the doctor when I'm in my
sixties and seventies and eighties, so that I don't have
to rely on my nieces because I don't really plan
on having children, because if I don't make those plans
that are unfortunately invested in this capitalist culture, that they're
(26:26):
going to suffer. The people who love me and who
are still around, then I'm going to be a drain
on them and their children. So living in this society
it forces you you can't again with all of these
hierarchies opting outcomes with enormous consequences, not just for you,
for anybody in your community for your family, for the
people who love and care for you, and so those
(26:48):
are the things that are always in our minds. This
reminds me of something you said in the video about
beauty being a bad investment, and it was really deep
for me as someone who thinking about aging and desirability.
And I think so much of like beauty is also
tied to whether or not you get loved. And I
think the tricky thing about being a woman who is
(27:10):
attracted to men and who dates men is that space
of wanting to be found desirable, because I think we
all need love, we all need to be cared for
and seeing is worthy of love, and so many of
these sort of beauty standards and the ages and that
is so attached to that. I think that becomes a
tricky thing about being a feminist, And the tricky thing
(27:30):
about being a feminist who is attracted to men and
wants to be in a relationship with them navigating that
you know what, I coined this phrase. Have you heard
the term pick me before? I have heard you say it? Yes,
So I say all the time that so many of
us are feminists in the streets and pick mes in
(27:52):
the sheets because we have these politics and we're vocal
in public, and we understand what's right is right and
inequality is wrong, and we stand up. But when it
comes time to be partnered, when it comes time to
cuddle up, maybe you're getting with a man who don't
quite have the politics that you need to have. Maybe
you are accepting a kind of treatment that you understand
(28:14):
is fundamentally unequal, is unjust. Maybe you're reproducing some inequality
in your home, you know, just to keep the peace right,
because that desire to be loved and care for and
honestly have sex. That's it's so natural and normal and
foundational to who we are as beings, as women, that
we're all making some concessions, you know, like we're all
(28:35):
doing it. And I think, as a feminist woman who
does partner men, what I've had to say to myself is, Okay,
what are you willing to give up? What are you
willing to deal with? How are you gonna address it?
You know when the stuff comes up, because inevitably the
stuff comes up? Right? And also, are you okay being alone?
Are you okay saying I'm not gonna participate in this,
(28:58):
I'm not gonna deal with the aunts phobia or the
homophobia just because Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, but
just because you're cute, Like I'm not going I'm not
going to know what you're gonna say, yes girl, and
right right hang yeah, But like but it's like, where
(29:19):
does my integrity lie? Because maybe I could deal with
that stuff and nobody would ever know, nobody would ever
see it. But does it matter to me that I'm
I'm aligning myself with this person who I know has
nasty politics. It does matter to me, And that means
sometimes you're not always gonna be able to get picked.
I was having a conversation with my girlfriends about how
(29:39):
hard it is to just find someone who can lay
it down the way it needs to be laid down
when it comes to just to the physical part, and
that he's going to be respectful enough that I can
like deal And so I'm like, just the respect, the attraction,
the chemistry, those things are really hard to find. So
I'm like, Okay, I may need to compromise on some
(30:01):
of these other things, and SE's some really clear boundaries, right,
So I think for me at this point in my life,
it's okay because I'm like hanging out with this dude
now who has politics that are very different from mine.
There have been some conversations that I'm like, Okay, I
don't agree with this, and we've talked about it very respectfully.
That when I actually do believe, and I preached publicly
that it's important to be able to have conversations across
(30:21):
your friends and to be able to be in relationship
with people who we don't agree with in a respectful,
loving way. And I don't feel unsafe and I don't
feel compromised. My mother always says, if you're with a man,
you're putting up with some ship. So what exactly are
we willing to put up with? And what are we
not willing to put up with? But that is it? Right? Like,
(30:43):
I recognize that we are all humans and messy and
a lot of times men, and since men in particular,
they're behind, you know. And so if I do desire
to be partnered, if I do desire love and affection
and care, I'm probably gonna be dealing with somebody who
it's not where I think they should be. And so
(31:03):
how much time am I going to be willing to
invest in trying to get them where they need to be?
Are they open to my ideas like that now factors? Okay,
maybe you're not there, but are you open to having
a conversation? Are you going to listen to me? Honestly?
But I don't believe that you can get into a
relationship with anybody and change them. People change if they
(31:24):
want to change, but I cannot change somebody. So when
I think about that in terms of someone's politics, I
don't like assume that I can change them in that
realm either. So are you talking about, like, you know,
are their political fixed or upper because I don't know
if that's really I don't know if that's a thing.
I think that's a good point. No, you can't expect
people to change. But I do enter all of my relationships, romantic, familial,
(31:50):
friendly with the idea that everybody is capable of change.
So I know that I have been transformed because of
my connection with folks, and I know it is possible
that my connection to those people can have a similar
kind of effect. But I also am with you. You
cannot enter a relationship with the expectation that in six
(32:14):
months they're going to be reading belt hooks Like it's
just not realistic. And I think too what I found
in my life just living my life is an openly transperson.
Is that like, it's not always even about talking about
gender or whatever with people, but just living my life
and being myself as authentically as I can be. Connect
you up is my full authentic self and be accepted
(32:36):
and not be rejected or shut down or or subjected
to conversations or viewpoints that I find violent or offensive
or whatever. Yeah, and I am so with you too.
Everybody in my life does not have perfect politics. Family,
people that I've dated, friends, what I would deem perfect politics.
I know that this is sect does it even exist? Right? Yeah?
(32:59):
So that's not a That's not a deal breaker for me.
It's just not I don't think that's hut. Yeah, I
gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.
That wasn't so bad, now, wasn't Okay, Let's get back
(33:22):
to it, speaking as partnered and being partnered. There was
a video that you did about the rap song Whop.
I think you've titled the Spectacle of Sexual Liberation. I
think something like that, And what I loved about it
is that they're talking about the spectacle of it. I
was like, Oh, this is it. It felt very hooksing
into me to sort of talk about the spectacle. But
oh I love that. Oh yes, yes, thank you so much. Yes, yeah,
(33:46):
to talk about the spectacle at all, but I think
that it's a really interesting way to ground and frame
the conversation around sort of sexual liberation and the idea
of sexual liberation. And I love how much you talk
about music in the music industry. Can you talk a
little bit about some of your thoughts on what you
call the spectacle of sexual liberation when it comes to
(34:06):
particularly Black women's sexuality and music. Yeah, So my concern
is that we have put so much emphasis on the
display of a liberated sexuality, meaning liberated Black women's bodies
look like this, and they do this, and they wear that,
(34:27):
and and she's wearing no clothes because she is liberated.
And if you question it, you are questioning her liberation.
And I just think that we should question that framing
the expectation that they will show up in that way.
The expectation is that they will perform their sexuality in
that way. In fact, there isn't really a lot of
space for women rappers, women in hip hop, women in
(34:48):
R and B to do anything other than that, and
why aren't we critiquing that lack of space. Why aren't
we critiquing the fact that so many Black women are
siloed into a singular kind of perform Harman's If we
are really invested in sexuality, we should be invested in
the idea that liberated bodies, that sexual bodies look and
(35:08):
move all kinds of ways, that it can feel different
for all kinds of people. Like I think that our
ability to imagine and innovate and think outside of the
box is dampened because we are socialized in a certain way,
and it is incumbent upon us who are deeply invested,
(35:30):
truly in the liberation of black women's sexuality and the
liberation of black women's body, so that we can exist
outside of these boxes, to just question, right like, why
is that the thing that we always go to? Why
is that the thing that we deem the sexiest? And
we should also think about I'm always interested in consequences.
We should think about what happens if you choose to
(35:52):
step outside of that. Are you gonna be able to
get worldwide fame? Probably not. Are you gonna be able
to sell a whole bunch of bread words? Probably? Not
right because it's again market places and desirability and higher
warchies and all of that. And if we are not
invested in just questioning that stuff, like again, we are
(36:13):
saying that we are okay with honestly the vast majority
of women, the vast majority of black women being left out.
Cardi b There was one moment that I think a
lot of black male rappers were sort of critiquing Cardi
and Nicky and other women who talk about sex a lot,
and they were critiquing in and Cardi came out in
a very Cardi way and said, well, you know, I
(36:33):
put out this song and I was talking about this
and it wasn't about my vagina and sexuality, and people
weren't checking for it. So it becomes this whole thing
of you know, the consumer and what it's a consumer want.
You talked about on one of your channels. You looked
at what songs were in the top one hundred by
black women, and most of them had to do with sexuality.
And so there was something about the market, right, thinking
(36:55):
about the market, what people are responding to and not
responding to. So what is our responsibility as consumers if
we're coming back to this capitalist model again around empowering
different kinds of content. Yeah, you know, that's just what
they like. Don't be mad at her. But it's like,
these are really smart businesswomen. These women understand the marketplace.
(37:16):
They have huge machines behind them that are doing all
the testing and here's where you're going to get the
sales and all of that, and the streams and all
of that. This is ultimately, for them about a profit
making endeavor, and so we should consume it and view
it as a profit making endeavor where these women do
have the opportunity to play in a way that is
(37:38):
stimulating and fun. But like they're trying to get bags,
you know, they're trying to get money. You're referencing Cardi
talking about her song Be Careful, which is like a
slower kind of song and it is about her husband
cheating on her and all of that, and that was
a cute song, and we don't want that from Cardi.
We have said, Cardi, you are this, so be that right.
(38:00):
And so I do talk about all the time the
kinds of coercion that's involved. And yes, these women are choosing.
Cardi chose to be a rapper, Meg chooses to be
a rapper, they maybe have a hand in choosing the singles,
But the coercion part is what are we responding to,
what are we streaming, what are we buying? What gets
them on the covers of magazines? And it is again
(38:23):
that narrow kind of performance. So, as a black woman
who desires to see all kinds of bodies and all
kinds of performances and explorations, and I want black women
to have the space to innovate, I have to think
about where I spend my money, but also where I
focus my attention because in this economy, right in the
(38:44):
social media economy, attention is super super valuable. So who
am I following? Who am I subscribing to on Patreon?
Am I buying their books? And all of that? Right,
that is the way that I can't push back against
all of these struck sures. And again we can't do
individual solutions to structural problems. But I feel good in
(39:05):
saying this is where I'm going to spend my time,
this is where I'm going to invest. And I will
say that we are so focused I think in our
conversations about sexuality on the external, how are we externalizing liberation?
It looks like this, it, it wears, this and all
of that. But for me, just personally, as a thirty
one year old woman, the work of finding my true
(39:28):
passion and pleasure and having the best sex sorry mom,
has been internal That work has been internalized. When I
was doing the most too to telegraph to the people
that I found desirable, that I'm sexy and do you
want me and all of that, I was having the
worst sex now that I am. Why do you think
you were having the worst sex because I was focused
(39:52):
on what they were seeing. How does this make you feel?
What is your reaction? Can we get a little even?
You know, I can remember being younger and having sex
and being like is this the right position? Like? How
does my backroll look? Does my body look weird when
(40:13):
I'm in this position? Okay, wait, Kimberly, what are your
facial expressions doing? Like I couldn't even be focused on
the pleasure because to a certain degree, because you know,
he don't want to be sexy. You can't be so conscious.
I think that there's a there's a we have an
awareness of like whatever, but like the consciousness is not
(40:34):
going to be pleasurable. Yeah, yeah, yeah totally. And it's
even like I used to when I was younger, try
to like face tune my nudes, right, like smooth out
cellulite and all of that. And now I'm like, this
is the body, This is the body you gonna get. Okay,
if you don't want this body, then I don't need
to come. Let me know, we faith tuned yours. I
(40:55):
don't take nudes just because, but you faith tuned your
That's deep to me. I wonder I'm sing not the
only one he's done that. I am sure I've smoothed
out cell you like tried to even out skin zone
and all of that. Oh totally, yeah, yeah, yeah wow.
But I think one of the important things that you
alluded to when that you talk about in your channel
(41:17):
is framing certain spectacles and performance and sexuality as empowering.
Is a way for the consumers to sort of absolve ourselves,
right participating in something that may or may not be
empowering for someone, but like we can call it empowerment
and feel more venerated. So of just saying I really
(41:37):
like this song, I love Walk, you know I love Walk.
I'm like I when he came out, I was like,
oh my god, this is pornographic that was my first thought,
and then I couldn't get it out of my mind,
and then I was just running around my apartment dancing
to it. And now I just live for it. I
like a couple of really sexually explicit songs from a
younger rapper named Mulatto, first of all, and now I
(41:58):
am problematic as also songs not super progressive. I'm not
going to pretend like that's feminism. I'm not gonna pretend
like Mulatto getting us free like what. I just like it, Okay,
I just like it. And it's okay, like let's free
ourselves to not have to ascribe political meeting to every
(42:19):
single thing we enjoy. I just like it. Amen. So
I like to end the podcast with a question that
comes from my therapy Stay with Me. What else is true? Um?
And it's based in the community resiliency model, and it's
(42:39):
the idea of both and that if there's something challenging
going on in my life and I feel that in
a really specific way, where in my body is it
neutral and positive? What else is true? And even though
things might be challenging right now in the world and
in your life, Kimberly, what else is true? For you.
(43:00):
Oh gosh, oh, I'm afraid to answer this. Okay, So
recently I've been thinking about how I am a person
who is deserving of love and care and affection. And
it is not tied to what I'm producing. It is
(43:21):
not tied to how much money is in my bank account.
It's not tied to the fact that COVID has shut
down so many of my dreams for this year. That
I'm valuable just because I am able to move through
the world, and I'm valuable because I'm generous, and I'm
valuable because I'm kind, and I'm so lucky to have
(43:43):
so many people in my life who make it a
point to take time out of their day to affirm
that value. Like that's really been getting me through that
I can just show up as Kim who is sometimes
a mess and be worthy. Yeah. I love that. I'm
a Burnee Brown scholar and stand as everyone knows. And
(44:04):
one of the things that Brinie brown Um says in
her work is that worthiness is a birthright. Worthiness has
no prerequisite. And that's what came up from me from
what you just said. And that's so beautiful. That's a
beautiful what else is true? Thank you? So much, Kimberly.
Where can people find you on social media? What's going on? Yeah?
(44:24):
So follow for Harriet on YouTube just type in for
Harriet for Harriet is also freely active on Instagram for
dot Harriet. I'm all over the internet at Kimberly and
Foster and Kimberly and Foster dot com. I'm just out
here just saying stuff, just saying whatever comes to my mind.
(44:45):
I value what you have to say. You have these
very difficult conversations that are nuanced and for me, very
very necessary. I'm so honored and I'm so glad we
got to have this time together. Thank you, Kimberly. Thank
you to learn. I think get older, I often think
about is there going to be a moment when I'm
(45:07):
sort of put out to pastor particularly as an actress,
dually as a woman. I feel like I look pretty
good for my age. I'm forty eight years old, and
I think that I have achieved some of the success
I've achieved because I'm intelligent and because I'm talented. But
I would be silly to think that, Um, I've been
on all these magazine covers because I, you know, just
(45:30):
because I'm smart and talented, I think how I look
is a part of what makes me marketable or not marketable.
But I think about it in terms of dating and relationships,
and it's something that I accept, but it's something that
I have a lot of ambivalence about. It's something that
(45:51):
scares me because people get older, god willing, and I
know that in an agist, misogynist, transmissive agonist culture that
older women are not often regarded in the same way
as younger women are. So I hope as I get
older that you know, my intelligence, my brain will stay
(46:11):
with me, and my talent will expand as my body changes.
But I wanted to have this conversation with Kimberly because
she has thoughts on this subject that made me think
about it differently, and I hope it will make you
think about the subject differently as well. Thank you for
(46:33):
listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Join me next week
when I'll be talking to T. S. Madison YouTube sensation,
media personality, and now the start of her own show
on we TV, The T. S. Madison Experience. If you
like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and share
with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram
(46:55):
and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne
Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in the lock.
The Laverne Cock Show is the production of Shondaland Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a reduction of shondaland
Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. We're still not
extending the care that we need to the people who
are always going to be left out, who are always
going to be quote unquote ugly. And when I'm thinking
about what do I want an ideal society to be,
(00:20):
what I would want is even those people who don't
fit any beauty, ideal, any standard, right that you can
have access to the care that you need. Hello, and
welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I've become a huge
(00:42):
consumer of YouTube content lately, and one of the YouTube
channels I love is called for Harriet, which features the
cultural commentary, interviews, and nuanced critical perspectives of Kimberly Foster,
who centers the experiences of black women. Kimberly Foster is
a writer, cultural critic, and media contributor. She's also the
(01:03):
founder and editor in chief for Harriet, a multi platform
digital community, as well as a national live events series
recognized the leading voice online by teen Vogue and Huffington Post.
Kimberly's video commentaries on current events have accumulated millions of
views and appeared on owns, black women own the conversation.
(01:23):
She always has her finger on the pulse because she
is part of the pulse. Honey. Kimberly made a video
about beauty as a commodity that illuminated some of the
thoughts I already had about the subject and made me
think about so many other things. On today's episode, we're
going to be talking to the outspoken feminist and founder
about beauty as capital. I find her so inspiring and smart,
(01:49):
and she always makes me think about something I hadn't
considered before. Please enjoy my conversation with Kimberly Foster. Hello,
kim really, welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?
I am great? First of all, thanks so much for
the invitation. I said I'm great, But that's always a lie,
(02:11):
right like in COVID times. That's not real. But I'm okay.
I am good. I really value the fact that I
have a job and I am not sick and my
family is not sick. But every once in a while
I get a little set because life is going by
(02:32):
and I can't do the stuff I want to do.
But it's it's okay. I'm okay. I follow your channel,
your YouTube, channel. That's how it became aware of you
and love it, and now I follow you on Instagram,
et cetera. You've been so prolific during quarantine. From my view,
I feel like you're constantly putting out videos talking about
(02:53):
what's going on in the world right now, and for
me that it takes a toll, especially when we're talking
about things like racial justice and imprisoned, that abolition and
all they really intense, complicated things that you talk about
on your channel. Is that taking a toll on you emotionally?
How do you balance putting out content that is really
intense with like your I guess self care. Yeah. So
(03:15):
for the first six months of Quarantine, I was super prolific.
I was on it, and I know that I have
a cycle of using work to evade dealing with my emotions.
That's like a long running theme in my life. And
so I absolutely was diving head first into making stuff.
(03:36):
And people are at home, so they're gonna click and
watch and don't throw away your shot. Get in fun people,
And honestly that has paid off in a lot of ways.
But over the past couple of months, I have really
been feeling it like I'm not doing as much as
I need to be doing, and I'm letting myself down.
And I built this community and they expect things that
I'm not delivering. I definitely feel that right now that
(03:59):
has taken a huge emotional toll on me. And then
I do feel like I have a little bit of
seasonal effective disorder. I'm just hearing that and I'm taking
it in and I'm reminded of this phrase that I
learned years ago, I forget where, and the phrase is
I am enough. I have enough and I do enough.
And I've had so many moments over the years where
(04:21):
it's like I need to be doing more. I am
not successful enough, I'm letting people down. I need to
just keep going. And I know that it's not really
working for me anymore. That I that just going going doing.
It's not the best for my mental health physical health.
So I have to slim myself down. Is where I'm
at with all that. Yeah, yeah, I think it's really
(04:43):
difficult as a creator. I mean, because of the rhythms
of the Internet, we are used to being in constant
consumption mode. So what's the new thing, new TikTok, new
Instagram post, new tweeks, you know, and because I recognize
that is the expect patient, I do internalize that I
do want to be great at my job. I don't
(05:04):
want to be good at my job. I want to
be great. I want to believe a legacy. I want
to be exceptional. And I understand that people are turning
to me to maybe say things that they might not
have the words for, and I want to deliver that
for them. But I also do want to be gentle
with myself. I do want to extend myself the kind
of grace that I make it a point to extend
to other people. Yeah, what I've come to understand is
(05:27):
that I'm not going to be of use to anyone
if I'm physically, emotionally, psychologically depleted. That I must put
the life mask on myself first, and if it's not on,
then I'm not really going to be able to really
be of service in the way that I want to be.
Absolutely Yeah, I think it's always important to put that
out into the world. I know I can't hear it
(05:48):
enough for the folks who don't know you and your work.
Can you tell them about what for Harry it is
and how it all began. Absolutely so, I started for
it as a blog from my college dorm room a
decade ago, which sounds crazy. It is crazy that I'm
in my thirties right now, but let's not talk about that.
(06:10):
But yeah, I decided that I wanted to create a
space where I could have really thoughtful, intergenerational conversations about
black womanhood and black feminism in particular. I have really
a dedicated set of politics that I'm really committed to.
I wanted to have those progressive conversations in interesting and
(06:33):
innovative ways. And eventually it evolved from just being blogging
just written posts, to me making videos, and the YouTube
channel has really blown up over the past two years
eighteen months. The title for Harriet and you talked about
it being about black women, black women feminism. Why Harriet?
(06:55):
I just I think I know why? Um, but everyone sure?
So I founded the site on the day before June tenth,
and it's named for Harriet because of Harriet Tubman. I
always want to embody a liberatory politic. I want to
take risks. I don't want to be worried about what's popular,
(07:16):
and I feel like if there is a guiding light
or shining star, then it's absolutely for me going to
be a Harriet Tubman. Oh that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Um.
I love the way in which you talk about pop
culture and use pop culture as a way to critically
analyze systemic you know, structures like racism, sexism, et cetera.
(07:39):
And clearly watching your videos, I'm like, this woman has
read her bell Hooks. I'm a bell Hooks stand lover.
Do not get me started. The way the way you
talk about so many things, it's like a nuanced understanding
of Hooks that I feel like a lot of people
don't haven't really done that work with and it's it
(07:59):
really writing for me. And I just think bell Hooks
is so crucial, so crucial in so many different ways,
and so pop culture is the only thing you talk about.
But there's so many moments with pop culture that you
use this teachable moments. Why do you do that? Yeah?
So I Number one, I'm obsessed with pop culture. From
the time I was a little kid, was obsessed with movies,
(08:21):
and I was obsessed with the Internet and music and
read all the magazines and all that like. But as
I got older and my politics evolved, I recognized that
this stuff that I was consuming and internalizing. It's not harmless,
it's not a political There's so much stuff in there
that when you really dig into it, it connects to
(08:44):
all of these superstructures. It connects to feminism, it connects
to social justice. And when I decided that I wanted
to start creating content, I understood that I have all
of these deep political commitments. And sometimes it's really heavy
and people are like, you're using the jargon, what are
you talking about? And so using pop culture as an
(09:06):
entry way to get to those really deep sometimes heavy
conversations makes it accessible to folks who are outside of
the academy or who are not reading bell Hooks all
the time, who are not reading Patricia Hill Collins, Right,
you know it's the hook Well, bell Hooks is really
interesting in being accessible as well, right, she wrote in
a very specific way, so that people can access the
(09:30):
information even though she is an academic. That's lineups as
with her, Like, I feel like I referenced bell Hooks
all the time, because it's easy to feel like we
on YouTube who do this commentary stuff, like we're the
first people to do it, or we're innovating, like no,
like we are building on a foundation that has already
been set, and I think it's really important for us
(09:51):
to acknowledge that, like somebody like Bell Hooks, Black Looks,
come on, Okay, Like Black Looks is the first Bell
Hooks book I read, and it changed my life in
a very substantial way. And you know, I have traveled
the country doing college lectures and people would stand up
with these critiques of feminism and say white feminism ists
and white feminism, and I'm just excuse me. The way
(10:13):
I came to feminism was through people like Bell Hooks
and people like Audrey Lord. And it just it pisces
me off, if I'm being honest, when feminism is always
reduced to this this white feminism that like just totally
erases like centuries of work that black women have been doing,
that it's always been intersectional. Yes, it's deeply, deeply upsetting.
I mean it's especially upsetting when you think of the
(10:36):
work that those women did to make themselves known, to produce.
I mean, they had to found their own presses and
they booked their own speaking tours and like, but against
the white women, like, do not dismiss that, Like it's
it's really deep, it's really really deep. The main reason
I want to talk to you is because of this
specific post where you talked about beauty being a really
(11:00):
bad investment. And I think it hit me in such
an intense way because it was something that I understood
intellectually and in my gut, but I never really heard
someone put it into words, specifically the way that you
did around beauty as a commodity, beauty and capitalism. Um.
(11:20):
For me, I'm in this space as a black trans
woman who was an actress, and you know, I'm walked runways,
and I'm forty eight years old, and I'm sort of
in a lot of ways just getting started in my career,
and I'm in this anxiety around aging out. You know,
it's just really deep and it's complicated, and can you
talk to me a little bit about where your thoughts.
(11:40):
Beauty is a commodity and and all of that come from. Sure.
So I love to talk about beauty because a lot
of the conversations that I hear about it are just
really silly and disingenuous. You know a lot of that stuff.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you
just have to love yourself. No, when I'm talking about beauty,
(12:01):
I am talking about beauty as a form of structural inequality.
We have all of these hierarchies in the world, class, race, gender,
but we don't often talk about beauty as a way
that many people and women in particular, are exceptionally marginalized,
and we are expected to invest deeply in the pursuit
(12:22):
of beauty. If we don't naturally have what is deemed beautiful,
we are expected to spend all of our time and
all of our money chasing it. Right And if you
are not able to chase it, if you are not
able to acquire it, you're a failed woman. If you
don't have it, then you can just expect to be
on the margins. You can expect for people to not
hire you, You can expect to not be picked if
(12:44):
you desire a partner. Right Like, they are all of
these things that we just accept as natural, normal and inevitable,
but they're not right like, They're reinforced structurally all around
us all the time, and a lot of us are
participating in that. The first time I heard the phrase
pretty pretty vilege, Janet Mock, the writer now director, producer,
(13:04):
used the term to talk about her pretty privileged as
a black trans woman who was often assumed to be
SIS gender and it was really intense for me and
really important to hear someone say that, because I find
it's really rare and open. Her interview with her for
Super Soul Sunday, Oprah was like, thank you so much
for saying pretty privileged, because she was like, I talked
(13:25):
to so many beautiful women who don't seem to acknowledge
that that's a thing, that don't seem to acknowledge that
there are privileges that come with being considered beautiful, and
we should say being as very beautiful within I would
say SIS normative white supremacists, sort of patriarchal standards, right,
and so the the hierarchy, the inequality that comes with
that is really really deep. And as a trans woman,
(13:49):
I'm keenly aware too of the ways in which I'm evaluated,
right in terms of my femininity since I started my
medical transition twenty two years ago, in the ways in
which I'm sort of evaluated and expected to embody femininity
that are often deeply problematic. Remember when I was on
the cover of Time magazine and there were all of
these older, white late transitioning trans women who were so
(14:12):
upset that I all of a sudden with the face
of the trans community because I was dropped dead Gortis
in their in their eyes, and I was like, when
did I become When did I become dropped dead Gorgias.
I was like when, Because in my estimation, I was
always that trans woman who wasn't quote unquote possible enough.
I would go to trans parties and other trans women
(14:34):
would tell me how much surgery I needed to be
more possible. And that is really problematic language. I'm using
you to shorthand when I say passing. So I just
think about those experiences in the context of this conversation.
So something that I always have to underscore is when
I am laying out these theories about beauty as a commodity,
(14:54):
about beauty as the primary form of capital and thus
access to power that most women and have access to.
I am not doing it in a judgmental way. I
understand that we are all operating in these really coercive systems,
like there are incredible consequences if you opt out. You
want to get hired, you want to eat, you want
to have access to healthcare and stable housing. If you're
(15:16):
a woman, you're probably gonna do what you have to do.
And that means for a lot of us that we're
going to participate in the system and get our hair
done and put on makeup. And I know that I
was always as a kid encouraged because I'm a black
girl at a brown skin, kinky hair and all that
be feminine, put on the dress where the heels right,
to try to offset all of the stereotypes, the historical
(15:38):
baggage that my body contains as I moved through the world.
And so I understand the critiques right of saying, oh,
it really sucks that this is the kind of normative womanhood, right,
or like the kind of performance of femininity or gender
that is most celebrated and most visible. I just think
(15:59):
that often when we are trying to say you, she's
too pretty, and like, you know, I think Beyonce gets
this a lot right in the Beyonce thing. It's complicated.
It's complicated. I have feelings about it. But I do
think that if we are going to love those kinds
of critiques, we do also have to grapple with the reality. Right.
We have to understand that, you know, white supremacist society,
(16:20):
you have to play certain kinds of games and to
varying degrees. We're all playing, but like not playing means
that you're gonna be sideline, you're gonna be marginalized, you
might not be able to eight. So I just think
that like the nuance is really important. Absolutely absolutely Wow.
Bellhook Star said that we're all living in contradiction when
it comes to particularly the capitalist part of what is
(16:42):
required to survive, and so we have to just be
in the truth of that and and not go into
this uncritically. And I think that's the reality for me
that I'm very keenly aware. It's very tricky and it's
really complicated trying to maintain authenticity and integrity in these
systems where I'm also trying to survive and hopefully create
space for other people do exist as well. Oh honey,
(17:04):
how's that for a little truth after a tiny little break,
We've got so much more for you, alrighty, then let's
just dive right back in. They are these channels that
really target darker skin black women around being feminine. Right,
(17:26):
there's this sort of pushed to be like more feminine,
and there's a suggestion that like darker skinned women are
not portrayed femininely enough in the media. Do you have
thoughts about that, because this is a really interesting I'm
sure you do. Yeah, oh my, yeah, I have thoughts
about that. So I understand what motivates those channels. Life
(17:50):
is really hard. If you're a black woman, it's super hard.
If your dark skin, it's super hard. If you have
broad features, if you have kinky hair, And so what
can we do to ameliorate some of that violence? What
can we do to stop it? Right? And so, if
wearing the dress is gonna stop it, let's wear the dress.
(18:10):
If wearing the heels is gonna stop it, if talking
in the high voice is gonna stop it, let's do
that stuff. The problem is that doesn't really work. It
might work sometimes, but it's not going to work all
the time. And so what are you gonna do when
those kinds of performances fail you. My problem is that
a lot of those spaces and those channels aren't really
(18:32):
dealing with the reality of we're not treated poorly because
we don't put on dresses. That's not it, right, Like
an enslavement, when our fore mothers, our ancestors were being
brutalized and raped, it wasn't because they weren't putting on dresses. Contemporarily,
when black women who are birthing black people, when their
(18:52):
doctors ignore their pain and allow their babies to die, like,
it's not because you're not wearing dresses, it's because we're
navigating white supremacist capitalist patriarchy in which our beings are
not valuable, and there is no performance of femininity that's
going to be able to undo that. The only thing
that's really going to be able to undo that is
if we tip away and ultimately dismantle those structures. And
(19:16):
when and when I hear that and what I just
came up from me and what everything you said is
the deep pain underneath all of the sort of brutal
nature of the ways in which imperialist, wide supremacist, capitalist
patriarch is played out in the lives of black women specifically.
So it's like, what can we do to lessen the pain?
Then the trauma attached to all of that without a
(19:38):
critique of this system right probably places the problem with
a black women that like, our marginalization is our fault
when we'd say that we need to be more feminine,
and it sort of absolves the system of any responsibility.
And this is actually not it's not empowering, it's something
that you can aedge out of. It's something that you
you may still not be ait enough for someone. Right,
(20:01):
as much as I have in so many ways performed
a traditional kind of femininity in my life as a
trans woman, I'm not feminine enough for some people. I'll
never be a voice. I'm still really tall. Like, there's
just ways in which I fall short. You know. I
started the hashtag trans as Beautiful as a way to
sort of reckon with that, But like, there has to
(20:21):
be another way. There has to be another lens, another
gaze that we can engage with. I think feeling beautiful
is something that is actually really important I think for
us to have on an individual level. And I guess
with the proliferation of more plus size models, with more models,
you know, with disabilities and darker skin models, and is
(20:42):
there a way that beauty as capital can sort of
be revisioned away from those gazes that are problematic? Or
if we are making beauty a commodity, even if they're
different bodies and skin tones, are we still replicating the
same system. You know, this is something that I really
(21:02):
struggle with because I spend so much time on the Internet.
I spend so much time on social media, and I
recognize that there are so many women who are able
to find body positive Instagram pages or let's celebrate dark
skin Instagram pages, or even I follow up a young
girl who says, my acne is beautiful, and I'm like, oh,
(21:25):
I wish I had this when I was thirteen. Right,
So I get that it is important for you to
be able, for us all to be able to see
ourselves and feel affirmed and validated and good in our bodies.
I have trouble with this idea because I do feel
like a lot of it goes back to this thing
(21:46):
of we're afraid to be ugly. We don't want to
feel ugly, we don't want other people to call us ugly.
Can we pause for a second when you said we're
afraid to be ugly and I don't for whatever reason,
that hit me in my gut. Can you. I don't
want to stop your thoughts, but can you unpack that
a little bit what that means for you. Yeah. So,
(22:07):
in our quests to redefine beauty ideals, to expand the
definition of beauty, we want to pull more and more
people in because we want everybody to feel good. That's
a that's a worthy goal, I understand. But then the
flip side is everybody can't be in the bubble of beauty,
(22:27):
right Like we're trying to expand and rethink and reimagine,
but ultimately we're still setting boundaries. Were just setting boundaries
different places depending on who we are or how we
feel we're affected by the standard, or where we live
or what day of the week it is, And so
there are always going to be people left on the outside.
And what about those people? I don't think that in
(22:48):
our quest to do all of the stuff, which again
I get it, but we're still not extending the care
that we need to the people who are always going
to be left out, who are always going to be
quote unquote ugly. When I'm thinking about what do I
want an ideal society to be, what I would want
is even those people who don't fit any beauty ideal,
(23:09):
any standard, right that you can have access to the
care that you need, that you can have access to safety,
that you don't have to spend your life on the
treadmill of self doubt and anxiety and worry. And that's
only gonna happen if we dismantle that stuff like I
don't want to be I have to be the feminist
skill joy all the time and the Debbie Downer. But like, yeah,
(23:31):
every time you erect a new boundary, it's keeping people out,
and I just think it's important for us to underscore that.
I think about the capitalist piece of all of it, right,
I think for for a brand, it's like, oh, we
can bring a lot more people, and we have more customers,
and we have more people who feel seen and included
in so we can sell more product. And so I
think for in terms of a business model, it's great
(23:52):
to be inclusive. But that's a very Western value, the
right to be a consumer, right, Like I want to
be in on that right. Like when we are compelling
these fashion houses to to put plus size models on
the runway, it is about you don't want my business,
you don't want me to be able to buy your fire,
(24:13):
And it's like, oh, maybe we should question that desire. Yeah. Well,
some designers, I mean the late great Carlographel, I think
he literally said he didn't want women of certain sizes
wearing his clothes. And as an actress who has never
been a sample size, there are a lot of designers
that I've just never worn and probably never will wear
because I just I'm not the right size. Yeah yeah,
(24:34):
I mean, but again it goes back to the hierarchy thing.
But also as a black woman, we are taught to
view that rejection as a personal affront, like, how dare
you deny me the right to build my worth off
of what I can acquire. You're intentionally keeping me out.
That's anti American, you know. So I just think I
(24:57):
just want to I want people to interrogate just a
little bit. I think it's really really tricky right to
not be dismissed when you have an opinion that it's
outside of the status quo. To not be positioned, it's
just crazy radical who needs to be silenced. And I think,
like for me, when I think about critics of capitalists,
I think about critiques of predatory capitalism, right, and the
(25:19):
ways in which capitalism historically has preyed on certain people
and bodies, and that capitalism has already been predatory historically,
like just looking at the truth of how it functions.
And I say, this is someone who engages in capitalism,
is someone who wants to make money. You know who
I've been for most of my life, and that was
not cute, Like not knowing if if I'd be able
(25:40):
to pay the rent, not being able to go to
the dentist or go to the doctor, and all the
things that like you experience when you're poor. It's really
really not cute. Yeah, again, I think that I love this.
I think that this nuance is important because I understand
the fundamental exploitation that capitalism requires, but I also recognize
(26:04):
I'm gonna have to be my own safety net, and
so I'm gonna have to make financial decisions so that
I can go to the doctor when I'm in my
sixties and seventies and eighties, so that I don't have
to rely on my nieces because I don't really plan
on having children, because if I don't make those plans
that are unfortunately invested in this capitalist culture, that they're
(26:26):
going to suffer. The people who love me and who
are still around, then I'm going to be a drain
on them and their children. So living in this society
it forces you you can't again with all of these
hierarchies opting outcomes with enormous consequences, not just for you,
for anybody in your community for your family, for the
people who love and care for you, and so those
(26:48):
are the things that are always in our minds. This
reminds me of something you said in the video about
beauty being a bad investment, and it was really deep
for me as someone who thinking about aging and desirability.
And I think so much of like beauty is also
tied to whether or not you get loved. And I
think the tricky thing about being a woman who is
(27:10):
attracted to men and who dates men is that space
of wanting to be found desirable, because I think we
all need love, we all need to be cared for
and seeing is worthy of love, and so many of
these sort of beauty standards and the ages and that
is so attached to that. I think that becomes a
tricky thing about being a feminist, And the tricky thing
(27:30):
about being a feminist who is attracted to men and
wants to be in a relationship with them navigating that
you know what, I coined this phrase. Have you heard
the term pick me before? I have heard you say it? Yes,
So I say all the time that so many of
us are feminists in the streets and pick mes in
(27:52):
the sheets because we have these politics and we're vocal
in public, and we understand what's right is right and
inequality is wrong, and we stand up. But when it
comes time to be partnered, when it comes time to
cuddle up, maybe you're getting with a man who don't
quite have the politics that you need to have. Maybe
you are accepting a kind of treatment that you understand
(28:14):
is fundamentally unequal, is unjust. Maybe you're reproducing some inequality
in your home, you know, just to keep the peace right,
because that desire to be loved and care for and
honestly have sex. That's it's so natural and normal and
foundational to who we are as beings, as women, that
we're all making some concessions, you know, like we're all
(28:35):
doing it. And I think, as a feminist woman who
does partner men, what I've had to say to myself is, Okay,
what are you willing to give up? What are you
willing to deal with? How are you gonna address it?
You know when the stuff comes up, because inevitably the
stuff comes up? Right? And also, are you okay being alone?
Are you okay saying I'm not gonna participate in this,
(28:58):
I'm not gonna deal with the aunts phobia or the
homophobia just because Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, but
just because you're cute, Like I'm not going I'm not
going to know what you're gonna say, yes girl, and
right right hang yeah, But like but it's like, where
(29:19):
does my integrity lie? Because maybe I could deal with
that stuff and nobody would ever know, nobody would ever
see it. But does it matter to me that I'm
I'm aligning myself with this person who I know has
nasty politics. It does matter to me, And that means
sometimes you're not always gonna be able to get picked.
I was having a conversation with my girlfriends about how
(29:39):
hard it is to just find someone who can lay
it down the way it needs to be laid down
when it comes to just to the physical part, and
that he's going to be respectful enough that I can
like deal And so I'm like, just the respect, the attraction,
the chemistry, those things are really hard to find. So
I'm like, Okay, I may need to compromise on some
(30:01):
of these other things, and SE's some really clear boundaries, right,
So I think for me at this point in my life,
it's okay because I'm like hanging out with this dude
now who has politics that are very different from mine.
There have been some conversations that I'm like, Okay, I
don't agree with this, and we've talked about it very respectfully.
That when I actually do believe, and I preached publicly
that it's important to be able to have conversations across
(30:21):
your friends and to be able to be in relationship
with people who we don't agree with in a respectful,
loving way. And I don't feel unsafe and I don't
feel compromised. My mother always says, if you're with a man,
you're putting up with some ship. So what exactly are
we willing to put up with? And what are we
not willing to put up with? But that is it? Right? Like,
(30:43):
I recognize that we are all humans and messy and
a lot of times men, and since men in particular,
they're behind, you know. And so if I do desire
to be partnered, if I do desire love and affection
and care, I'm probably gonna be dealing with somebody who
it's not where I think they should be. And so
(31:03):
how much time am I going to be willing to
invest in trying to get them where they need to be?
Are they open to my ideas like that now factors? Okay,
maybe you're not there, but are you open to having
a conversation? Are you going to listen to me? Honestly?
But I don't believe that you can get into a
relationship with anybody and change them. People change if they
(31:24):
want to change, but I cannot change somebody. So when
I think about that in terms of someone's politics, I
don't like assume that I can change them in that
realm either. So are you talking about, like, you know,
are their political fixed or upper because I don't know
if that's really I don't know if that's a thing.
I think that's a good point. No, you can't expect
people to change. But I do enter all of my relationships, romantic, familial,
(31:50):
friendly with the idea that everybody is capable of change.
So I know that I have been transformed because of
my connection with folks, and I know it is possible
that my connection to those people can have a similar
kind of effect. But I also am with you. You
cannot enter a relationship with the expectation that in six
(32:14):
months they're going to be reading belt hooks Like it's
just not realistic. And I think too what I found
in my life just living my life is an openly transperson.
Is that like, it's not always even about talking about
gender or whatever with people, but just living my life
and being myself as authentically as I can be. Connect
you up is my full authentic self and be accepted
(32:36):
and not be rejected or shut down or or subjected
to conversations or viewpoints that I find violent or offensive
or whatever. Yeah, and I am so with you too.
Everybody in my life does not have perfect politics. Family,
people that I've dated, friends, what I would deem perfect politics.
I know that this is sect does it even exist? Right? Yeah?
(32:59):
So that's not a That's not a deal breaker for me.
It's just not I don't think that's hut. Yeah, I
gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.
That wasn't so bad, now, wasn't Okay, Let's get back
(33:22):
to it, speaking as partnered and being partnered. There was
a video that you did about the rap song Whop.
I think you've titled the Spectacle of Sexual Liberation. I
think something like that, And what I loved about it
is that they're talking about the spectacle of it. I
was like, Oh, this is it. It felt very hooksing
into me to sort of talk about the spectacle. But
oh I love that. Oh yes, yes, thank you so much. Yes, yeah,
(33:46):
to talk about the spectacle at all, but I think
that it's a really interesting way to ground and frame
the conversation around sort of sexual liberation and the idea
of sexual liberation. And I love how much you talk
about music in the music industry. Can you talk a
little bit about some of your thoughts on what you
call the spectacle of sexual liberation when it comes to
(34:06):
particularly Black women's sexuality and music. Yeah, So my concern
is that we have put so much emphasis on the
display of a liberated sexuality, meaning liberated Black women's bodies
look like this, and they do this, and they wear that,
(34:27):
and and she's wearing no clothes because she is liberated.
And if you question it, you are questioning her liberation.
And I just think that we should question that framing
the expectation that they will show up in that way.
The expectation is that they will perform their sexuality in
that way. In fact, there isn't really a lot of
space for women rappers, women in hip hop, women in
(34:48):
R and B to do anything other than that, and
why aren't we critiquing that lack of space. Why aren't
we critiquing the fact that so many Black women are
siloed into a singular kind of perform Harman's If we
are really invested in sexuality, we should be invested in
the idea that liberated bodies, that sexual bodies look and
(35:08):
move all kinds of ways, that it can feel different
for all kinds of people. Like I think that our
ability to imagine and innovate and think outside of the
box is dampened because we are socialized in a certain way,
and it is incumbent upon us who are deeply invested,
(35:30):
truly in the liberation of black women's sexuality and the
liberation of black women's body, so that we can exist
outside of these boxes, to just question, right like, why
is that the thing that we always go to? Why
is that the thing that we deem the sexiest? And
we should also think about I'm always interested in consequences.
We should think about what happens if you choose to
(35:52):
step outside of that. Are you gonna be able to
get worldwide fame? Probably not. Are you gonna be able
to sell a whole bunch of bread words? Probably? Not
right because it's again market places and desirability and higher
warchies and all of that. And if we are not
invested in just questioning that stuff, like again, we are
(36:13):
saying that we are okay with honestly the vast majority
of women, the vast majority of black women being left out.
Cardi b There was one moment that I think a
lot of black male rappers were sort of critiquing Cardi
and Nicky and other women who talk about sex a lot,
and they were critiquing in and Cardi came out in
a very Cardi way and said, well, you know, I
(36:33):
put out this song and I was talking about this
and it wasn't about my vagina and sexuality, and people
weren't checking for it. So it becomes this whole thing
of you know, the consumer and what it's a consumer want.
You talked about on one of your channels. You looked
at what songs were in the top one hundred by
black women, and most of them had to do with sexuality.
And so there was something about the market, right, thinking
(36:55):
about the market, what people are responding to and not
responding to. So what is our responsibility as consumers if
we're coming back to this capitalist model again around empowering
different kinds of content. Yeah, you know, that's just what
they like. Don't be mad at her. But it's like,
these are really smart businesswomen. These women understand the marketplace.
(37:16):
They have huge machines behind them that are doing all
the testing and here's where you're going to get the
sales and all of that, and the streams and all
of that. This is ultimately, for them about a profit
making endeavor, and so we should consume it and view
it as a profit making endeavor where these women do
have the opportunity to play in a way that is
(37:38):
stimulating and fun. But like they're trying to get bags,
you know, they're trying to get money. You're referencing Cardi
talking about her song Be Careful, which is like a
slower kind of song and it is about her husband
cheating on her and all of that, and that was
a cute song, and we don't want that from Cardi.
We have said, Cardi, you are this, so be that right.
(38:00):
And so I do talk about all the time the
kinds of coercion that's involved. And yes, these women are choosing.
Cardi chose to be a rapper, Meg chooses to be
a rapper, they maybe have a hand in choosing the singles,
But the coercion part is what are we responding to,
what are we streaming, what are we buying? What gets
them on the covers of magazines? And it is again
(38:23):
that narrow kind of performance. So, as a black woman
who desires to see all kinds of bodies and all
kinds of performances and explorations, and I want black women
to have the space to innovate, I have to think
about where I spend my money, but also where I
focus my attention because in this economy, right in the
(38:44):
social media economy, attention is super super valuable. So who
am I following? Who am I subscribing to on Patreon?
Am I buying their books? And all of that? Right,
that is the way that I can't push back against
all of these struck sures. And again we can't do
individual solutions to structural problems. But I feel good in
(39:05):
saying this is where I'm going to spend my time,
this is where I'm going to invest. And I will
say that we are so focused I think in our
conversations about sexuality on the external, how are we externalizing liberation?
It looks like this, it, it wears, this and all
of that. But for me, just personally, as a thirty
one year old woman, the work of finding my true
(39:28):
passion and pleasure and having the best sex sorry mom,
has been internal That work has been internalized. When I
was doing the most too to telegraph to the people
that I found desirable, that I'm sexy and do you
want me and all of that, I was having the
worst sex now that I am. Why do you think
you were having the worst sex because I was focused
(39:52):
on what they were seeing. How does this make you feel?
What is your reaction? Can we get a little even?
You know, I can remember being younger and having sex
and being like is this the right position? Like? How
does my backroll look? Does my body look weird when
(40:13):
I'm in this position? Okay, wait, Kimberly, what are your
facial expressions doing? Like I couldn't even be focused on
the pleasure because to a certain degree, because you know,
he don't want to be sexy. You can't be so conscious.
I think that there's a there's a we have an
awareness of like whatever, but like the consciousness is not
(40:34):
going to be pleasurable. Yeah, yeah, yeah totally. And it's
even like I used to when I was younger, try
to like face tune my nudes, right, like smooth out
cellulite and all of that. And now I'm like, this
is the body, This is the body you gonna get. Okay,
if you don't want this body, then I don't need
to come. Let me know, we faith tuned yours. I
(40:55):
don't take nudes just because, but you faith tuned your
That's deep to me. I wonder I'm sing not the
only one he's done that. I am sure I've smoothed
out cell you like tried to even out skin zone
and all of that. Oh totally, yeah, yeah, yeah wow.
But I think one of the important things that you
alluded to when that you talk about in your channel
(41:17):
is framing certain spectacles and performance and sexuality as empowering.
Is a way for the consumers to sort of absolve ourselves,
right participating in something that may or may not be
empowering for someone, but like we can call it empowerment
and feel more venerated. So of just saying I really
(41:37):
like this song, I love Walk, you know I love Walk.
I'm like I when he came out, I was like,
oh my god, this is pornographic that was my first thought,
and then I couldn't get it out of my mind,
and then I was just running around my apartment dancing
to it. And now I just live for it. I
like a couple of really sexually explicit songs from a
younger rapper named Mulatto, first of all, and now I
(41:58):
am problematic as also songs not super progressive. I'm not
going to pretend like that's feminism. I'm not gonna pretend
like Mulatto getting us free like what. I just like it, Okay,
I just like it. And it's okay, like let's free
ourselves to not have to ascribe political meeting to every
(42:19):
single thing we enjoy. I just like it. Amen. So
I like to end the podcast with a question that
comes from my therapy Stay with Me. What else is true? Um?
And it's based in the community resiliency model, and it's
(42:39):
the idea of both and that if there's something challenging
going on in my life and I feel that in
a really specific way, where in my body is it
neutral and positive? What else is true? And even though
things might be challenging right now in the world and
in your life, Kimberly, what else is true? For you.
(43:00):
Oh gosh, oh, I'm afraid to answer this. Okay, So
recently I've been thinking about how I am a person
who is deserving of love and care and affection. And
it is not tied to what I'm producing. It is
(43:21):
not tied to how much money is in my bank account.
It's not tied to the fact that COVID has shut
down so many of my dreams for this year. That
I'm valuable just because I am able to move through
the world, and I'm valuable because I'm generous, and I'm
valuable because I'm kind, and I'm so lucky to have
(43:43):
so many people in my life who make it a
point to take time out of their day to affirm
that value. Like that's really been getting me through that
I can just show up as Kim who is sometimes
a mess and be worthy. Yeah. I love that. I'm
a Burnee Brown scholar and stand as everyone knows. And
(44:04):
one of the things that Brinie brown Um says in
her work is that worthiness is a birthright. Worthiness has
no prerequisite. And that's what came up from me from
what you just said. And that's so beautiful. That's a
beautiful what else is true? Thank you? So much, Kimberly.
Where can people find you on social media? What's going on? Yeah?
(44:24):
So follow for Harriet on YouTube just type in for
Harriet for Harriet is also freely active on Instagram for
dot Harriet. I'm all over the internet at Kimberly and
Foster and Kimberly and Foster dot com. I'm just out
here just saying stuff, just saying whatever comes to my mind.
(44:45):
I value what you have to say. You have these
very difficult conversations that are nuanced and for me, very
very necessary. I'm so honored and I'm so glad we
got to have this time together. Thank you, Kimberly. Thank
you to learn. I think get older, I often think
about is there going to be a moment when I'm
(45:07):
sort of put out to pastor particularly as an actress,
dually as a woman. I feel like I look pretty
good for my age. I'm forty eight years old, and
I think that I have achieved some of the success
I've achieved because I'm intelligent and because I'm talented. But
I would be silly to think that, Um, I've been
on all these magazine covers because I, you know, just
(45:30):
because I'm smart and talented, I think how I look
is a part of what makes me marketable or not marketable.
But I think about it in terms of dating and relationships,
and it's something that I accept, but it's something that
I have a lot of ambivalence about. It's something that
(45:51):
scares me because people get older, god willing, and I
know that in an agist, misogynist, transmissive agonist culture that
older women are not often regarded in the same way
as younger women are. So I hope as I get
older that you know, my intelligence, my brain will stay
(46:11):
with me, and my talent will expand as my body changes.
But I wanted to have this conversation with Kimberly because
she has thoughts on this subject that made me think
about it differently, and I hope it will make you
think about the subject differently as well. Thank you for
(46:33):
listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Join me next week
when I'll be talking to T. S. Madison YouTube sensation,
media personality, and now the start of her own show
on we TV, The T. S. Madison Experience. If you
like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and share
with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram
(46:55):
and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne
Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in the lock.
The Laverne Cock Show is the production of Shondaland Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Laverne Cox
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