October 14, 2021 • 49 mins
On this episode, Jennifer Burton Flier joins Laverne again to go deeper into the Community Resiliency Model and to tie in so many of this season’s episodes on healing. They’re all connected! Laverne and Jennifer go over practical skills that you can use to build your resiliency for this (very) challenging world. Those skills are tracking, resourcing, grounding, gesturing, shift and stay, and help now. You can find more helpful therapeutic tips and information in the first episode with Jennifer Burton Flier, “Trauma Resilience and Healing.” Jennifer is a senior faculty member with the Trauma Resource Institute and Laverne’s personal therapist!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of shondaland
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Habit stacking is
that on a monopolic habit stacking, I just like saying
on a monopedia anyway, go no? So can we notice
though right here the word can be a resource? You
(00:22):
like saying it, and you're laughing and giggling and the
brightness of your smile, like anything can be a resource.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm
Laverne Cox. So since we had my therapist Jennifer Burnt
(00:43):
Flyer on the very first time, I knew I wanted
to do a follow up episode with her to go
deeper into the work of the community Resiliency model and
really try to drive home some of these tools that
you can use in your life and the reason and why.
It's because, as Dr Robert Brock, the former president of
(01:04):
the American Academy of Pediatrics, once said, adverse childhood experiences
or childhood trauma is the single biggest unaddressed to public
health crisis today. Toxic stress that can develop during childhood
can throw our bodies out of whack in a lot
of different ways it can disrupt our immune system, we
(01:27):
can also disrupt our d n A. What is adaptive
for survivalist children becomes maladaptive as adults. And so it
felt really urgent to me to have another conversation with
my therapist about practical tools that we can use to
(01:48):
combat toxic stress in our lives, because I feel like
our lives are on the line, and what is beautiful
about the work of the community resiliency modelists that we
can begin to have interventions in the lives of our
children in terms of their health care, in terms of
how we parent them, and we could also have interventions
(02:08):
with the children that live inside of us. It is
never too late to have a happy childhood. It is
never too late to begin the healing process. Jennifer Burne
Flyer is both a therapist and private practice and a
senior faculty member with the Trauma Resource Institute also known
as t r I. She teaches both the Trauma and
(02:29):
Community Resiliency models with t r I and has traveled
extensively in the US as well as Northern Ireland to
share wellness skills with various groups and cultures. Jennifer is
certified and e m D. R Expressive Arts Therapy, and
Burnee Brown's Daring Way and Rising Strong Models. Please enjoy
my conversation with Jennifer Burden Plyer. Hello, Jennifer, Welcome back
(02:59):
to the podcast. How are you feeling today. I'm feeling okay.
I'm feeling all right. You know, you are the first
guest that I've had back for a second time, so
that's awesome. Super you're obviously my therapist. For those folks
who didn't hear the previous podcast, we've been working to
the other for five years, which is insane. And I'm
(03:19):
aware that I understood very early about the resilient zone.
I understood very early about intellectually that is, about the
resilient zone. I understood what the skills were in the
community resiliency model. I understood that talxic stress trauma too much,
too fast, too soon over time can have negative health consequences.
(03:43):
And I've really been trying hard to practice these tools
for the past five years. But it's been really hard.
And even though I know this step intellectually, I'm still
struggling and I have a lot of notes and theories
about why it's hard, but like why as a therapist
has been doing this for forever. What keeps people from
(04:03):
being able to practice these really simple, easy to use tools,
What keeps that? What gets in the way of us
being able to do this? It's such a great question.
And you know, I mean I, as I've said, I
teach these skills all the time, I use them myself
all the time. It also doesn't mean that I don't
need to be reminded sometimes by lovely friends who also
(04:24):
know these skills that I need to maybe use a
skill sometimes, you know. So life is going to happen.
And I also think that going back, I was actually
listening back to our podcast and a couple of things
arose for me, and one was we're wired for survival.
So the brain and body automatically are looking for where's
(04:47):
the threat, where's the concern, where's the feel, where's the word?
What do I need to look out for? You know,
this is just a constant for us. And Rick Hanson
actually says that are you know, we are Velcro for
the negative and Teflon for the positive. L Crow, can
you break that down? We're vell Crow for the negative
and Teflon for the positive. So the unpleasant, distressing stuff
(05:09):
is what sticks because if I know that if I
predict that, if I'm looking for that, then I'm much
more likely to survive. Right, So this goes back even evolutionarily.
You know, I needed to know if that rustle in
the bushes was a saber tooth tiger or if it
was the wind. And if I sit there, la la
la and think it's the wind, I could get eaten. Right,
(05:32):
So it behooves me to know from a survival standpoint. So,
if they're the human race to have survived this long,
we had to have developed these certain survival skills that
release the cortisol on the adrenaline. We know that the
constant release the courtisol on the adrenaline, though is not sustainable,
is not healthy. Correct. I've been thinking a lot about
(05:53):
my own journey and why this has been so challenging
for me. I'm so hard wired for toxic stress and
a lot of you know, I think goes back to attachment.
You know, we've talked to Dr Wendy Walston this podcast
about attachment theory. Those first three years of um when
we're born, if we're neglected in some way, our survival
response becomes maladaptive, right they of course it interviewed Nating
(06:15):
Burke Harris for this podcast, and she talks a lot
about ACES or adverse childhood experiences, and I have a
lot of them. And so the research from my understanding,
and I mean, you're the one who told me about ACES,
is that those early adverse childhood experiences can change that
heartwork for me. What's so challenging with these skills is
that I'm so intensely hardwired in a maladaptive way because
(06:41):
of adverse childhood experiences. Is that correct? Yes, But I
want to say a couple of things about that. So
first of all, also, it's not even the first three years.
It's also just stationally, you know. And when we're in
the womb, if the mother is experiencing stress, actually those
hormones cross the central bear, you aren't going into the
developing fetus. Yeah. And so when I'm saying that we're
(07:05):
velcrove for the negative and tethlon for the positive, it
means that the bad stuff sticks and the good stuff
kind of slides off. But if I'm using a skill
based process for regulating our nervous system, then I'm actually
increasing and enhancing the resiliency factors. So a couple of
things I would say, what we pay attention to is
(07:26):
what grows. So if I'm having physical pain in my
body and I pay attention to the beating drum of
the pain, I'm going to get more pain. That's what's
going to get more inflamed in my body because my
body goes, Oh, she's paying attention to that. Let's give
her more, you know. But if I then focus my
attention away from the pain to what else is true?
To both and maybe my foot is not in pain,
(07:49):
maybe I need to go outside my body and just
focus on something else. It might not completely go away,
but it might like a headache could go away, for example,
of stomach ache might subside hide. But either way, even
if I have things like five of my algia or
chronic conditions, the volume can get turned down if I'm
actually looking for and cultivating paying attention to something else,
(08:12):
something other than what's distressing. But what else is true? Yeah?
And then the other piece I want to say that's
really important to pay attention to, is it with aces?
With any of this stuff? Often what we say when
we teach us that adversity is not destiny. Amen, Amen.
And the hardest part, the hardest part is practicing that
(08:35):
is what gets in the way. Going back to your
what gets in the way is that we don't practice.
Because when we're in our resilient zone, when things are
going fairly well or we're neutral or whatever, we don't
think we need a skill. Why would I practice? Then
that's exactly the time we need to practice. Oh, Jennifer,
this is wonderful. Thank you so much for that. It's
(08:56):
it's thundering enlightening here. Adversity is not destinate for me.
That piece is so important because that again that that's
a resilient piece. It's also the agency piece before we
get into some of the skills, because we want to
go into practicing some of these skills live here on
the podcast to demonstrate them. I just wanted to define
(09:17):
again because when I when I was listening again to
our previous conversation trauma and toxic stress before we I'm
delve into the work, and I was very aware of
too much, too fast, too soon. But I was reminded
that in the community resiliency model from the Trauma Research Institute,
you said that trauma or toxic stress can also be
too much or too little for too long. Because that
(09:40):
that that I mean that too much, to fast, too soon,
I think is really clear around trauma, right, Like if
you're in a car accident, that's like too much, too fast,
too soon, but too much for too little for too long.
It feels like what I've been struggling with and what
a lot of people might be struggling with from childhood stuff.
Can you unpack that a little bit more before we
move on. Yeah, So the too much, too fast, too soon,
(10:01):
like we just talked about, like you just so eloquently said,
it's shocked trauma right from car accident on. But the
too little or too much for too long would be
it can be developed mental trauma. So something that happens
a lot over time. Right, So there could be neglect
going on that happens over time, or in a neighborhood
(10:23):
there's gun violence m constantly, right, that's where there is
lead in the water, or it's just racial discrimination. And
also you know another way that that we can look
at it is and this is very simplifying here, but
big tea, little tea, and c T or cumulative traumas. Right,
So the big teas are the nine elevens, the earthquakes,
(10:45):
the you know, car accidents. Little teas can be falls,
dog bites, dental procedures, things like that. And then the
cumulative trauma is that racial disparity and discrimination, impoverished communities. Again,
the cumulative things that happen over time, all the isms,
(11:05):
all the alcoholisms, all the you know, homophobia and transphobia
and all those things are all part of cumulative traumas
that gets stacked up over time, and they take a
toll in the nervous system. All of them take a toll,
by the way, So even if we're distinguishing big T
little tc T, the body experiences them like a big tea, right,
(11:26):
the body is still registering it like horrible things are happening.
I'm in distress, so you know, I need help, and
we can't. We turn on that survival response and we
can't turn it off. That feels like what it really
has been the struggle for me lately that I once
it's turned on for me, it's really hard to turn
it off. Walking out my apartment can turn it on
(11:49):
for me, and so have to be like really intentional
when I'm walking down the street. I had I walked
the streets today and it's hot, and you know, I
have all my you know, hyper vigilist. So I had
to have a conversation with myself walking down the street.
I'm safe. I had to like, I'm really be aware
of my surroundings and aware of what's going on in
my body. Dr Joe to Spins, who we had on
the podcast. I think that's what he means by being
(12:11):
present in conscience. So I have to really slow down
and not be on automatic and a gentle like, Okay,
what's going on. Let's let's let's have a talk with myself.
Let's see if I can bring it down a little
bit well, And notice the compassionate tone of your voice
right now, and even that gesture, that motion that you're
making with your hands coming down, bring it down? You know?
(12:31):
As you say that, can you notice the bringing it
down on the inside as well as you make that motion.
I was thinking of the metaphor you used in the
last in our last conversation, Um, the living room would
be the resilient zone, in the basement would be the
low zone, and the attic would be the high zones.
I'm trying to bring it down from the attic, you know. Yeah.
Can I share briefly a piece that I remember from
(12:54):
our work together? Because one of the things early on
that I think we talked about in relationship to this was,
you know, because you are a public figure, right your
public personality, and when you go out of the house,
sometimes people are going to recognize you. And while you
are lovely with your fans, there have been moments where
(13:15):
maybe somebody approaches you, either from a side or from
a certain position, and it can light up an old
memory network of a boundary violation in the body, and
suddenly you're in a fight or flight survival response and
the fan is just wanting to make contact with you,
but you're having a whole response, and and there's this
(13:35):
whole dynamic that gets set up that under other circumstances
might not happen. Yeah, it happened many times. And I
have to say that the mask culture of the pandemic
has really helped me a lot with going out in
public and really being incognito and just like a normal person.
I love that, and that really has helped me regulate.
(13:57):
I've been more consciously like saying I'm going outside, now,
let's get present. Let's like try to slow it down
and bring it down so that I'm not just like
if somebody like walks too close to me, I don't
freak out. Um, And that's It's like I have to
be very consciously in the other direction, almost like the
hardwiring is to be hyper vigilant about a lack of safety.
(14:20):
And so I almost have to be gently and compassionately
and lovingly hyper vigilant in the other direction to to
not feel like everything is a threat, I guess, but
that's different than vigilance, right, So if hyper vigilance is
in the attic or in the high zone, when you
are intentionally consciously aware that's in your resilience zone, you
(14:43):
might even still be at the upper end of the
resilience zone. You could still be somewhat activated, but not
so aroused that you're in the attic, You're still in
the living room, you're handling it. I call it super tracking.
Our hyper vigilance gets dialed into be super tracking. I'm
very aware of what going on around me, but it
becomes more of a relaxed alert state. What's really been
(15:05):
helping me too? And on This will be useful for
anyone out there. I've been thinking a lot about like
how I need to feel energetically when I go to sleep,
when I want to rest and like just put my
mind at ease and put my body to rest. I've
been trying to sort of like walk in the world
like that. Not that I want to go to sleep
while I'm walking down the street, but I want to
just be so relaxed and at peace. It's like the
(15:27):
sensation of that is better than like a conversation or
better than it's really it's embodied. I guess it feels
more embodied than like because I've tried like affirm affirmations
and positive self talked to counter the negative self talk.
But just that relaxation of like well and and even
that side that you just took sign resets and brings
(15:51):
on the parasympathetic branch, that bright pedal of the body.
What I like about it and about paying attention to
the body is there's no right, are wrong, there's no shoods.
It's just what's happening right now. And if I need something,
what can I bring in to help regulate this now?
It feels like a great time for a short break.
(16:12):
We'll be right back there. Okay, we're back. Let's keep
the conversation going. Can't we just remind everyone what the
(16:37):
resilient zone is and then let's do some skills are
like practice getting into that zone. Yeah, if you picture,
you know, two horizontal lines, one on top of the other,
but there's space in between, and there's a wave that
goes in between that. That's our resilient zone. And the
resilient zone is the place where we're our best sell.
(17:00):
We can have all kinds of different feelings, but we
can manage them, we can communicate about them, we can
pay attention to ourselves and ourselves in relationship to others.
And then when we get bumped out of that resilien zone,
that nice, yummy place, we can go one of two places.
We can get bumped into the high zone, which is
that place of hyper vigilance and panic, like we've talked
(17:20):
about the extreme stress rage states. I just saw red,
like those things that colloquialisms that we say, you know,
in our world and our culture. That's the high zone.
And then conversely, we can go to the low zone,
which is numbed out, very depressed, more than just sad. Right,
this can be disconnected, it can be dissociated like floaty feeling.
(17:43):
It can really feel like that extreme low zone depression,
almost suicidal, almost yeah, And our last conversation we um
the question of connection came up right, that we're hardwired
for connection as human beings. And I was thinking too
about that in relationship to resilience, like when I've been
(18:03):
bumped out in a session with you or just in
the world, like I can't hear, I can't hear, I
can't I can't really connect to someone when I'm bumped
into the high zone, and I can't connect to someone
when I'm in the low zone. So it's like I
could only connect from a place that resilience, like really connect.
And we're hardwired for connection as human beings, so like
(18:25):
the release of the stress hormones or like not being
in the zone keeps us from connection. That's correct. And
and my colleague and friend Kim Cookson calls the resilien
zone also the relational zone. I mean, this is the
place where we are in social engagement. Social engagement happens
from the resilien zone. Right, we don't hear each other.
(18:46):
We actually our whole perception changes when we're in the
higher low zones. We don't actually hear accurately, we don't
perceive tones of voice in the same way when we're
in the higher low zones. Our perspective and perception is
very narrowed when we're in either of those polls versus
when we're in the resilience zone, we really are aware
of ourselves and we can socially engage and connect. I
(19:09):
think that relates to to like, you know, the thing
I always talk about on a macro level, on a
societal level, when we hurt people, hurt people when people
are sort of operating from trauma right in our politicians
have like sort of you know, weaponized as being in fear,
and so we're so afraid and we read a comment
and we can't even like we're not even reading the
comment directly. We're just projecting our own story, our own
(19:32):
trauma onto it, not because we're bad people, because we're
bumped out of our zone, and so we can't even
actually accurately read a comment on the internet. We can't
accurately read a situation around us either when we're bumped
out of our zone. Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's
so key because if I if I am in those
(19:54):
states of high low zone or bouncing back and forth
between those states all the time, and I can't send
into my own resilience that begets more of that. Right. Again,
what we pay attention to is what grows. So that's
all I'm in and I lose my sense of connectedness, right,
And it is in that connection place which we talked
about last time around. I have my own zone and
(20:16):
you have your own zone. But then together we have
that collective the coregulation. The coregulation and sometimes even in therapy,
for example, if I'm in my resilience zone, even when
or if you get bumped out of yours, I'm holding
the resiliency container and I'm lending you my nervous system
(20:37):
that is regulated so that you can reregulate. That is coregulation.
So can we talk a little bit about the six
skills that we use to regulate our nervous distance as
per the Community Resiliency Model. Yes, so the Community Resiliency
Model or CRM has six skills. Most of them are
(20:58):
in the eye chill app as well. If you want
to go look at the at the app for some practice,
and they are tracking, resourcing, grounding, gesturing, shift and stay
and help now. And again, what I really also want
to say is that we're tracking with all the skills.
(21:18):
So that is key. It is the foundational cornerstone of
this practice is because tracking is reading the body, it's
it's noticing what's happening in our body. And then that
practicing these skills, as were about to talk about, if
we can practice when we're already in our zone, we're
actually widening and deepening our capacity for resiliency, which means
(21:40):
less stuff is going to bump me into the higher
low zones, so I actually have more autonomy. We want
to actually also be heartwiring and firing wiring new neuro
pathways in our nervous systems. And so when things are great,
when things are awesome, and Jennifer reminds me a lot,
like you know, I've been having some great time my
boyfriend and like some really wonderful, loving, awesome, incredible times,
(22:05):
you know, being at the house with with with the boy.
I'm just going to go on the way um C
C And I'll tell Jennifer about it, and she's like,
we should bank those, we should bank those in the
nervous system so that when something challenging comes up, I
have these good sensations, there's resources to draw from, and
so that these can become what else is are true.
(22:26):
Later on, I remember in um in Bernie Brown's Call
to Courage, the Netflix special she did, she tells the
story about being on a paddle boat with her daughter
one afternoon and her daughter kind of leaning back and
closing her eyes, and Brinnie asked her what she was doing,
and she said, I'm making a picture memory. And I
do that so that when upsetting things might happen, I
(22:48):
can call up the picture memory that's resourcing. So resource
in this model, in the way that we define it
is anything that gives you comfort, joy or peace in
your life. Her daughter was actually banking a resource in
that moment. And there's this wonderful quote by JFK that
the best time to fix the roof was when the
sun is shining, and that is why we practice when
(23:12):
the good stuff is going on, and just a simple thing,
like you know, it was raining the other night and
CC was like, I love the rain, and I was like,
let's go up to the roof and like, just you know,
watch the rain like fall. It seems so silly, but
it was so beautiful and it was such a beautiful
memory in the view is amazing up there, and I
(23:34):
allowed myself to be in that moment fully and to
feel him and to feel the view and to feel
the rain drops and the breeze, and that becomes a
resource that I can use. So wait, let's pause right there.
Let's pause right there. I'm just gonna work it out, Jennifer.
(23:54):
So let's take that moment and enhance it. So you
just painted this beautiful picture of it raining outside and
you inviting him to the roof and to watch and
feel the rain on your skin and just the view
from the rooftop and even the sounds or the smell
outside of being up on that roof. And I'm just
(24:15):
watching you take a breath right now, as I'm all
I'm doing is feeding your words right back to you.
And as you're in that memory, what else, if anything,
are you aware of in your body right now? Let's
just take a moment and track that in the memory.
I'm aware of him holding me and how safe and
(24:37):
seen I felt. I'm aware and in my body specifically,
it's all over my body. I mean the way he
holds me, but it's like it feels like it's coming
up through my through my guts, from my belly button
up to my like um stern m so Let's notice
that's right now. It's coming from your belly, from your
gut all the way up to your sternum, and you
(24:57):
made this lovely motion which actually just is going to
invite you to slow that down a little bit. This
motion of bringing your hand up from your belly to
your stern um and what happens inside as you do
that with your breath or it made me want to exhale,
and then I just I mean, I just thought about
(25:17):
and I thought about the way he smells and the
way he looks at me. I noticed the laughter and
the smile. So now we're paying attention to the sensory
experience of the story of being with him. Yeah, that
is the slowing down. That is the tracking what's happening
in your body right now in this moment. I almost
(25:39):
feel some tears wanting to come. Um. I'm so happy
when I'm with him in a way that like I
never imagined, And sometimes it feels like too much and
it gets scary because it's it's pure joy, and it's
so pure and just feeling very whole and safe, like
really really stage so right now in this moment, notice
(26:04):
the sensation of whole and safe on the inside. Just
take a moment and let yourself be aware of whole
and safe in your body. Um, and just noticed, tears
are a release. Tears are release in the nervous system.
Oh my gosh. And that exhale. Noticed the exhale, m hm,
(26:29):
and the nodding of the head. You know, sometimes will
not our heads when things feel very congruent. I'm just
gonna invite you to marinate. And what I think is
really important to point out is that you're not with
him right now. You're not on the roof right now.
I know it's thundering where you are, but you're not
in the rain right now, right And so that is
(26:51):
the beauty of our nervous system, our body and resourcing especially.
It doesn't matter that you're not on that roof. Your
body is experienced sing it like it's happening right now.
The nervous system does not know past, present, future or
fact from fantasy. One more time, the nervous system does
not know past, present, present, future, or fact from fantasy,
(27:15):
or a fact from fantasy that reminds me of what
Dr Joe Dispensa says about their body be unconscious. Mind
does not know the difference between reality or a thought
that we've created. That's right. They do it in sports
a lot as well. Or if you've ever watched the Olympics,
(27:35):
even like the ski runs that people do, and you'll
see the skier at the top doing the course, they're
like moving their body the way the course is going
to go. They're running it in their body before they
even go down that hill, and the nervous system is
responding in kind. So that is the real benefit to
(27:56):
chasing the resiliency, to focusing on the pleasant and new.
It's not a denial that these things happened in our lives.
It's not a denial of the oppression that people are
experiencing or have experienced. It is the both. And because
what helps me then deal with that is by cultivating
the strength and resiliency in my nervous system. And we
(28:18):
have to actively practice when I think the embodied piece
of the resources. I was just you know, I am
in a lovely apartment in New York right now, and
this view is insane and I'm not always able to
take in the view. So it's like there has to
be a conscious connection to the resource. Right, there's incredible beauty.
If I can like slow myself down enough to take
it in that can be a resource. I mean that's
(28:39):
also maybe a little help now too well, but it's
it's both and they do overlap. Yeah, So the health
now skills are when we are really bumped out in
the high or low zone, we need something very quickly
that can come in and regulate us. And so this
is a list actually on the actual app, there's a
list of ten things, but I often invite people to
(28:59):
add to it because actually the scent one is not
quite on there as far as I can recall. But
I invite people really to pick out maybe two that
speak to you, and those are the ones that you
practice with. I have the ones that are my go
to ones. Those are the entry point because maybe I'm
too bumped out to even find my resource, but I
(29:20):
can find a help now scope and I can do that,
and that might get me notched down or notched up
enough in order to find a resource, and then I
can get more back in my zone. And that's really
the point of them. Got love help Now. These skills
do overlap, and you're going to find that, like when
we're inter weaving the gestures with the resourcing and all that.
(29:40):
You know, we can talk about gesturing in a moment.
But yes, the key about resourcing that I think is
so important is that we need to tell the story
of the resource to make it alive enough that when
I go into the body for the sensory experience, it's
big enough to override my automatic lenin to distress, brilliant.
(30:03):
It completely mirrors what Dr Dodas spans it talks about
that he says that an experience, that experience becomes our
unconscious mind. Right. So, and you said in the last
podcast that we received most of our information from the
body to the head and the other in the opposite direction.
So we have to tell the story of the experience
so that it feels real for us in our bodies
(30:25):
and our in our nervous systems to override the habit,
the programming of the maladaptive um stress response. That's exactly right.
It can't just be like, oh, Laverne, think about that thing.
Sometimes a resource is powerful enough that I could say, oh,
just think about your boyfriend, right, and I'm sure that
(30:46):
would light up already. It starts a cascade going. But
isn't it much more rich when you tell me the
story of the roof. And then if that got too
big and too much, let's say hypothetically we were in
a session, I would justly bring us back to the
part of the resource that's really pleasant. It wasn't sad.
It I was crying because I was I was so happy,
(31:08):
Like the tears were coming because I was so happy
and it and it also felt like, oh my god. Safety,
you know that the thing of like so much of
what I'm struggling with in my body right as much
as like intellectually I'm like I'm safe, my nervous system
she doesn't feel safe. You know, I'm forty nine years old.
(31:29):
I can't keep living with this toxic stress. And I mean,
you know, there's all the studies about heart disease, about diabetes,
about the negative health consequences that come from this. But
like it feels like a matter of life or death.
It's time for a short break. When we come back
more with our guest, we are back picking up where
(32:06):
we left on the way politicians get reelected. The way
like media organizations like get us to click on things
is to like make us outraged afraid, and we click
and then we like, and then it's just we get
addicted to that, and we keep going and it's stressful,
(32:28):
and we're all stressed out and worried. It's the cycle
that's going on inside our bodies. But then it's like
everything external that I feel like I have to put
down as well if I want to survive. I think
you're right, it is a public health crisis, which means
there's a biological imperative that we take some action and
(32:50):
do this daily to actually regulate, because otherwise, how are
we going to deal with this life, in this world
and this planet that we're on right now? How are
we going to do it? And I think that speaks
to your question of how do we bring it in?
And again I'm not in any way knocking meditation practices
or you know, other forms. What I love about these
(33:12):
skills more than anything is how fast I could do them.
I don't have to sit for twenty minutes to get regulated.
I can actually get regulated in about thirty seconds if
I can pay attention, you know, if I do, for example,
I help now skill which I'm just going to name
a couple, it could be like sipping something warm or cool.
(33:33):
It could be looking around the room and naming colors
or naming items in the room, you know, pushing on something,
pulling something. Those things are very quickly regulating for the
nervous system. If we then pay attention to how that
shifts in the inside. And when you speak to practicing,
there's a technique called habit stacking. Habit stacking. I love that.
(33:55):
I don't know what it means, but it sounds really cool.
Habit stacking is that on a mint of habits stacking
on ama, I just like saying on Amonopeia anyway, go no.
So can we notice though right here the word can
be a resource. You like saying it and you're laughing
and giggling and the brightness of your smile, Like anything
(34:16):
that doesn't suck can be a resource. And so with
habits stacking. Habits stacking is about taking something new that
you want to practice and pairing it with something that
you already do. So if I brush my teeth every
morning and every evening, I'm going to pair practicing my
resourcing or practicing grounding, or practicing a help now skill
(34:39):
while I'm also brushing my teeth, or before after I'm
brushing my teeth, so I do it at the same time.
So then again you're creating new habits, pathways, new neural pathways,
new neuropathways, neuroplasticity, and we're breaking the habit of being
ourselves in the parlance of Dr Joe just spins that.
(34:59):
And what is great and encouraging about the world right
now is that a lot of there is a lot
of talk about self care and mental health, like publicly
right now and Naomi Asaka just I don't know why,
I just she just her withdrawing from the French Open
citing mental health and then like it, making international news
feels like a huge intervention for some reason to me,
someone like me, and I think for a world that
(35:21):
is so like about success, right like that in America
were like I want to be successful. I have internalized
I have to work harder than everybody else, Like I
have to work twice as hard. I have to like
just nose to the grindstone and just give it, give
it given. I want to go hard, but like my
nervous system is like saying no, Like you know, it's
so funny because like I want to be Beyonce and
(35:42):
j Lo, Like I look at those women and I'm
like they are clearly working harder than everybody else and
that's why they're more successful, right, And so like I
want to work harder than everybody else. But maybe they
don't have the same trauma and stress talks of stress
that I do. I don't know, maybe they don't. But
also we don't know what they do to cultivate rest
and play in their own lives as hard as they're working.
(36:03):
Let's remember that one of Bernet's guide posts a wholehearted
living is cultivating rest and play. And I'm letting go
a productivity and self worth, right, which is hard for
some of us. I know I am an over classic,
over function or over worker, and it's hard I think
being a helper, you know, being in a helping profession.
(36:25):
I want to be of help. And so if somebody
needs a session, the question is am I also practicing
what I preach? Am I'm modeling what I'm doing? Or
am I still in that over functioning which kind of
can perpetuate that higher zone state. Well, you've told me
I can't pour from an empty cup, So yeah, I
mean again, like we can remind folks that these we
(36:46):
wanted to just really key in on resourcing today. Let
them the last conversation we talked about tracking and shiftin
s Day. You can listen to that last podcast, And
really this is about for me. It's again act seeing
these skills when things are going well, because I've been
I had a panic attack in the airport. Oh that
was bad. I was a mess girl. I called you
(37:08):
and you said, do you have any throat coat tea
bags in your purse? And I did because I often
carry throat coat tea bags because that can you open
it up? Can you just smell the tea bag? And
I mentioned this because that helped a little bit. It
got in a little bit. But once I'm in my
high zone, once I'm in the panic attack, it is
(37:30):
almost impossible for me to actually practice these skills, at
least on my own. Well, I also think biologically, once
you're in the wave of a panic attack, you're kind
of riding that wave into the shore at that point.
So the whole hope is that we can actually practice
tracking enough that we can then catch the ramp before
it goes all the way up, and then we might
(37:52):
be able to extinguish that and thwart a panic attack.
The other thing I want to just note here with
the scent is the ural factory bulb our sense of
smell is the only sense in the body that links
directly to the amygdala, which is the fierce appraisal center
of the brain, and so it holds really highly charged memories. Right.
(38:13):
Why does it do that? Well, if there's smoke on
the horizon, I need to know to run away, or
if the meat is bad, I know I need to
know to not eat it. So it needs to give
me cues really quickly. But it can also those scents
can really quiet those yummy the throat coatie or like
I was just saying, the you know, the old book
smell or scent of lavender for me is another scent.
So it started to help. It started to poke in there,
(38:35):
even in that moment, And that's a help now scaled
that we can draw on immediately and then maybe callbody.
But I could even I was so bumped out, I
couldn't even get bring myself to think to pull out
the t bag. No, at that point, No, at that point,
you're borrowing from another person's prefrontal cortex to help you
(38:57):
get regulated. You're borrowing the thinking brain of somebody else
because you're thinking brand has gone offline in that moment
and that's great, brilliant. We schoually just do a little bit.
Gesturing basically is one of the skills and we're running
at a time, but I just wanted to we we
mentioned in and basically it's like, can you just talk
briefly about gesturing and we can incorporate it a little
bit into the resource um And as you said earlier,
(39:18):
we can move do multiple things at once with these skills,
we can. And with gesturing, what we're really paying attention
to is, let's say when you were in the resource,
the gesture you're making is often either enhancing or intensifying
the resource, or it's also the body and the nervous
system is settling, and the gestures will be ones of release,
so I can feel my body letting go of that,
(39:40):
and we'll make hand gestures or arm gestures that signify that.
So we pay attention to that in this model, and
we track it. We slow it down because typically gestures
happen below consciousness. We're not aware of it, like I
talked with my hands all the time, but some of
the gestures can be really poignant, and when we slow
them down, the actually deepen and intensify the state of relaxation,
(40:03):
or there might be some protective gesture, like I wanted
that person to just stop and I put my hand out.
That's a protective gesture. Setting a boundary is really important,
and we might pay a somatic attention to that. And
there's two more. One is self soothing. So people that
play with your hair like you play with your hair
actually quite a bit um and I would say that's
(40:24):
a self soothing gesture if you call attention to it.
Or some people twiddle their thumbs, or some people shake
their foot or shake their leg. Those things are self
soothing gestures, and they're typically very socially acceptable gestures. So
we would intensify them, make them so then I could
do it consciously, and then that could actually be soothing
(40:44):
and calming for my system. And then the other our
universal spiritual gestures like prayer hands or open palms, like
those kinds of gestures, hand to the heart. We've seen
that all over the world. So those are the gestures
that we can cultivate and pay attention to. What I
love about gesturing as again as an actor and a
danswer is that it is physicalized. Check Off has this
(41:07):
idea of the psychological gesture there may be as something
that the character does, a specific particular movement that a
character does that gives us clues about who that person
is emotion or a movement that can get you right
into character. So it's really interesting thinking about this in
relationship to what you're saying, what Dr Joe says, in
terms of like these resources that, once embodied, they can
(41:30):
become a rehearsal for the person that we want to be,
a rehearsal for the life that we want to live,
for the resilience that we want to um live in,
rehearsal for the zone, rehearsal for you know, the new
character that we're creating that is ourselves. I love that. Yeah, totally,
I love that. I love it too. Okay, So you
(41:52):
know we in the podcast with the question what else
it's true. We've been talking about that the whole time.
But for you, Jennifer today, after this way else it's true. Well,
I just want to thank you again. I want to
thank you for having me back. I know it's a
vulnerable thing when we're engaged in a therapy process already
to then make that more open, and I'm just I'm
(42:14):
touched and moved and also just honored because I really
have so long felt that these skills are so so
readily accessible and so needed, and it feels so good
for me to be able to to get this out
to a wider group of people, because these skills really
honestly saved my life. Um, I knew you were going
to ask me this question again today and I thought,
(42:37):
Oh my god, what am I going to share? What
else is true? What else is true? And I thought
about vulnerably sharing a resource of mind because I'm looking
at a picture of it right now. Well, music is
a huge resource for me, and I like all different
kinds of music wide ranging, you know, operative heavy metal
and everything in between, but sting in particular is a
(42:58):
big resource for me. Several years back, I actually got
an opportunity at a sound check to sing with him
on stage, and that was I can feel it like
bubbling up right now. What you say with staying at
a sound check? What? How did this happen? How did
(43:19):
this happen? I was with a friend of mine and
we had sound check passes, and he at one point
during the sound check said, Okay, who wants to help
me out on this next song? And I'm raising my
hand frantically, and my friend actually was pointing at me
because she knows I like to sing. And so he said, oh,
your friends nominating you, So you come up, and he
picked one other girl. And as we're both going up,
(43:41):
the woman says in my ear, she says, can you sing?
And I said yes, and she says, oh, good, because
I can't sing. And I'm like okay. And so we
go up on stage and you know, he's really nice,
and he, you know, gives us what. We're going to
share this mic. Right, We're gonna sing every breath you take.
We're gonna sing every breath you take. And he's going
to sing the first line and then I'm going to
(44:02):
sing the next line. She's going to sing the third,
and we're going to go round about like that. And
then I got to harmonize with him, and we sang
the entire song from front to back. Did he take
the melody and you took like a higher harmony or
did did you take the melody and he took a
harmony I'm I'm wanting he was on the melody line
and I took a higher harmony. And then he said, oh,
she's harmonizing. Now. I love that that is so epic.
(44:27):
That is definitely what else is do? That's a resource?
Oh my god? And is there a photo of you
with staying? Is that what you're looking at? Well, there's
He came to l A with his UM the Last
Ship with his Broadway show, and I waited at the
stage door when he and he came out. So I
actually have a picture of him with my arm around
him in my hand on his chest. So that's the
picture I'm looking at right now. I love you waiting
(44:50):
at this stage door for staying. Like that makes me
like really happy. I've waited at the stage door too
in my day. Yes, And can we just notice right
now in the connection that we're having right now in
this moment, in that resource way, and what that's like.
We're co regulating, we are, we are, We're doing the
(45:13):
skills not even knowing it. But now that you've pointed
it out, we can bank this moment. We can bank
the like sharing of this this staying stories epic. I
love staying. I'm actually my boyfriend and I we UM
on vacation. We were singing every breath you take as well,
like not with staying well with the recording is staying,
not like standing next to him and the STIPU take.
I'll be watching you watching okay on that note, podcast
(45:45):
has gone very free willing, okay. Thank you so much. Jennifer.
Are you on social media? People follow you somewhere. I
do have a website, Yes, the website. I have a website.
They can find me at Jennifer Burton m f T
dot com. Thank you so much. I love it. Thank you.
(46:08):
I hope that in finding Jennifer back and going deeper
into the work of the community Resiliency model has helped
you to understand this process more and how you may
be able to use it in your life. I'm obsessed
right now with habits stacking. While I'm brushing my teeth,
I can practice the resource. I love what Jennifer shared
(46:32):
with us encouraged us to do around practicing the skills,
rehearsing them in an experiential way, and it's very much
related to what Dr Doda spins I talked about that
we need the experience of it to override the hardwiring,
to override the trauma pathways. For me specifically, I love that.
I love that this is related to the work that
(46:54):
we talked about with doctrinating Borke Harris, the attachment theory
work that we talked about with Dr Wendy, washed self
come fashion peace that we talked about with Kristin Neff,
to post traumatic slave syndrome. So all of these things
are connected. You know, I've been with Jennifer for five
years now, and she brought up attachment theory, she brought
up you know, adverse childhood experiences, et cetera. Right, and
(47:17):
there's only so much that we can get to at once,
so easy does it. We don't want, like the therapeutic
process to be too much, too fast, too soon, So
we have to take things in pieces. Right. It's like
an onion that you sort of feel. You peel back
one layer and there's another one. Jennifer has given us
some very concrete work that we can do right now,
some help now that we can do so that we
(47:40):
can connect to the world around us, so that we
can connect to the things that make us human. And
best of luck to you in your search for your
resilience for being the very best version of yourself. M H.
(48:08):
Thank you so much for listening to the Laverne Cox Show.
Join me next week for my conversation with multi award
winning actor, singer, director, composer, playwright, fashion icon, the one
and only Billy Porter. I mean girl, How can you
miss it? Please? Rate, review, subscribe and share with everyone
(48:33):
you know. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter
at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real.
Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox
(48:57):
Show is a production of Shonda land Audio in partners
it with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of shondaland
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Habit stacking is
that on a monopolic habit stacking, I just like saying
on a monopedia anyway, go no? So can we notice
though right here the word can be a resource? You
(00:22):
like saying it, and you're laughing and giggling and the
brightness of your smile, like anything can be a resource.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm
Laverne Cox. So since we had my therapist Jennifer Burnt
(00:43):
Flyer on the very first time, I knew I wanted
to do a follow up episode with her to go
deeper into the work of the community Resiliency model and
really try to drive home some of these tools that
you can use in your life and the reason and why.
It's because, as Dr Robert Brock, the former president of
(01:04):
the American Academy of Pediatrics, once said, adverse childhood experiences
or childhood trauma is the single biggest unaddressed to public
health crisis today. Toxic stress that can develop during childhood
can throw our bodies out of whack in a lot
of different ways it can disrupt our immune system, we
(01:27):
can also disrupt our d n A. What is adaptive
for survivalist children becomes maladaptive as adults. And so it
felt really urgent to me to have another conversation with
my therapist about practical tools that we can use to
(01:48):
combat toxic stress in our lives, because I feel like
our lives are on the line, and what is beautiful
about the work of the community resiliency modelists that we
can begin to have interventions in the lives of our
children in terms of their health care, in terms of
how we parent them, and we could also have interventions
(02:08):
with the children that live inside of us. It is
never too late to have a happy childhood. It is
never too late to begin the healing process. Jennifer Burne
Flyer is both a therapist and private practice and a
senior faculty member with the Trauma Resource Institute also known
as t r I. She teaches both the Trauma and
(02:29):
Community Resiliency models with t r I and has traveled
extensively in the US as well as Northern Ireland to
share wellness skills with various groups and cultures. Jennifer is
certified and e m D. R Expressive Arts Therapy, and
Burnee Brown's Daring Way and Rising Strong Models. Please enjoy
my conversation with Jennifer Burden Plyer. Hello, Jennifer, Welcome back
(02:59):
to the podcast. How are you feeling today. I'm feeling okay.
I'm feeling all right. You know, you are the first
guest that I've had back for a second time, so
that's awesome. Super you're obviously my therapist. For those folks
who didn't hear the previous podcast, we've been working to
the other for five years, which is insane. And I'm
(03:19):
aware that I understood very early about the resilient zone.
I understood very early about intellectually that is, about the
resilient zone. I understood what the skills were in the
community resiliency model. I understood that talxic stress trauma too much,
too fast, too soon over time can have negative health consequences.
(03:43):
And I've really been trying hard to practice these tools
for the past five years. But it's been really hard.
And even though I know this step intellectually, I'm still
struggling and I have a lot of notes and theories
about why it's hard, but like why as a therapist
has been doing this for forever. What keeps people from
(04:03):
being able to practice these really simple, easy to use tools,
What keeps that? What gets in the way of us
being able to do this? It's such a great question.
And you know, I mean I, as I've said, I
teach these skills all the time, I use them myself
all the time. It also doesn't mean that I don't
need to be reminded sometimes by lovely friends who also
(04:24):
know these skills that I need to maybe use a
skill sometimes, you know. So life is going to happen.
And I also think that going back, I was actually
listening back to our podcast and a couple of things
arose for me, and one was we're wired for survival.
So the brain and body automatically are looking for where's
(04:47):
the threat, where's the concern, where's the feel, where's the word?
What do I need to look out for? You know,
this is just a constant for us. And Rick Hanson
actually says that are you know, we are Velcro for
the negative and Teflon for the positive. L Crow, can
you break that down? We're vell Crow for the negative
and Teflon for the positive. So the unpleasant, distressing stuff
(05:09):
is what sticks because if I know that if I
predict that, if I'm looking for that, then I'm much
more likely to survive. Right, So this goes back even evolutionarily.
You know, I needed to know if that rustle in
the bushes was a saber tooth tiger or if it
was the wind. And if I sit there, la la
la and think it's the wind, I could get eaten. Right,
(05:32):
So it behooves me to know from a survival standpoint. So,
if they're the human race to have survived this long,
we had to have developed these certain survival skills that
release the cortisol on the adrenaline. We know that the
constant release the courtisol on the adrenaline, though is not sustainable,
is not healthy. Correct. I've been thinking a lot about
(05:53):
my own journey and why this has been so challenging
for me. I'm so hard wired for toxic stress and
a lot of you know, I think goes back to attachment.
You know, we've talked to Dr Wendy Walston this podcast
about attachment theory. Those first three years of um when
we're born, if we're neglected in some way, our survival
response becomes maladaptive, right they of course it interviewed Nating
(06:15):
Burke Harris for this podcast, and she talks a lot
about ACES or adverse childhood experiences, and I have a
lot of them. And so the research from my understanding,
and I mean, you're the one who told me about ACES,
is that those early adverse childhood experiences can change that
heartwork for me. What's so challenging with these skills is
that I'm so intensely hardwired in a maladaptive way because
(06:41):
of adverse childhood experiences. Is that correct? Yes, But I
want to say a couple of things about that. So
first of all, also, it's not even the first three years.
It's also just stationally, you know. And when we're in
the womb, if the mother is experiencing stress, actually those
hormones cross the central bear, you aren't going into the
developing fetus. Yeah. And so when I'm saying that we're
(07:05):
velcrove for the negative and tethlon for the positive, it
means that the bad stuff sticks and the good stuff
kind of slides off. But if I'm using a skill
based process for regulating our nervous system, then I'm actually
increasing and enhancing the resiliency factors. So a couple of
things I would say, what we pay attention to is
(07:26):
what grows. So if I'm having physical pain in my
body and I pay attention to the beating drum of
the pain, I'm going to get more pain. That's what's
going to get more inflamed in my body because my
body goes, Oh, she's paying attention to that. Let's give
her more, you know. But if I then focus my
attention away from the pain to what else is true?
To both and maybe my foot is not in pain,
(07:49):
maybe I need to go outside my body and just
focus on something else. It might not completely go away,
but it might like a headache could go away, for example,
of stomach ache might subside hide. But either way, even
if I have things like five of my algia or
chronic conditions, the volume can get turned down if I'm
actually looking for and cultivating paying attention to something else,
(08:12):
something other than what's distressing. But what else is true? Yeah?
And then the other piece I want to say that's
really important to pay attention to, is it with aces?
With any of this stuff? Often what we say when
we teach us that adversity is not destiny. Amen, Amen.
And the hardest part, the hardest part is practicing that
(08:35):
is what gets in the way. Going back to your
what gets in the way is that we don't practice.
Because when we're in our resilient zone, when things are
going fairly well or we're neutral or whatever, we don't
think we need a skill. Why would I practice? Then
that's exactly the time we need to practice. Oh, Jennifer,
this is wonderful. Thank you so much for that. It's
(08:56):
it's thundering enlightening here. Adversity is not destinate for me.
That piece is so important because that again that that's
a resilient piece. It's also the agency piece before we
get into some of the skills, because we want to
go into practicing some of these skills live here on
the podcast to demonstrate them. I just wanted to define
(09:17):
again because when I when I was listening again to
our previous conversation trauma and toxic stress before we I'm
delve into the work, and I was very aware of
too much, too fast, too soon. But I was reminded
that in the community resiliency model from the Trauma Research Institute,
you said that trauma or toxic stress can also be
too much or too little for too long. Because that
(09:40):
that that I mean that too much, to fast, too soon,
I think is really clear around trauma, right, Like if
you're in a car accident, that's like too much, too fast,
too soon, but too much for too little for too long.
It feels like what I've been struggling with and what
a lot of people might be struggling with from childhood stuff.
Can you unpack that a little bit more before we
move on. Yeah, So the too much, too fast, too soon,
(10:01):
like we just talked about, like you just so eloquently said,
it's shocked trauma right from car accident on. But the
too little or too much for too long would be
it can be developed mental trauma. So something that happens
a lot over time. Right, So there could be neglect
going on that happens over time, or in a neighborhood
(10:23):
there's gun violence m constantly, right, that's where there is
lead in the water, or it's just racial discrimination. And
also you know another way that that we can look
at it is and this is very simplifying here, but
big tea, little tea, and c T or cumulative traumas. Right,
So the big teas are the nine elevens, the earthquakes,
(10:45):
the you know, car accidents. Little teas can be falls,
dog bites, dental procedures, things like that. And then the
cumulative trauma is that racial disparity and discrimination, impoverished communities. Again,
the cumulative things that happen over time, all the isms,
(11:05):
all the alcoholisms, all the you know, homophobia and transphobia
and all those things are all part of cumulative traumas
that gets stacked up over time, and they take a
toll in the nervous system. All of them take a toll,
by the way, So even if we're distinguishing big T
little tc T, the body experiences them like a big tea, right,
(11:26):
the body is still registering it like horrible things are happening.
I'm in distress, so you know, I need help, and
we can't. We turn on that survival response and we
can't turn it off. That feels like what it really
has been the struggle for me lately that I once
it's turned on for me, it's really hard to turn
it off. Walking out my apartment can turn it on
(11:49):
for me, and so have to be like really intentional
when I'm walking down the street. I had I walked
the streets today and it's hot, and you know, I
have all my you know, hyper vigilist. So I had
to have a conversation with myself walking down the street.
I'm safe. I had to like, I'm really be aware
of my surroundings and aware of what's going on in
my body. Dr Joe to Spins, who we had on
the podcast. I think that's what he means by being
(12:11):
present in conscience. So I have to really slow down
and not be on automatic and a gentle like, Okay,
what's going on. Let's let's let's have a talk with myself.
Let's see if I can bring it down a little
bit well, And notice the compassionate tone of your voice
right now, and even that gesture, that motion that you're
making with your hands coming down, bring it down? You know?
(12:31):
As you say that, can you notice the bringing it
down on the inside as well as you make that motion.
I was thinking of the metaphor you used in the
last in our last conversation, Um, the living room would
be the resilient zone, in the basement would be the
low zone, and the attic would be the high zones.
I'm trying to bring it down from the attic, you know. Yeah.
Can I share briefly a piece that I remember from
(12:54):
our work together? Because one of the things early on
that I think we talked about in relationship to this was,
you know, because you are a public figure, right your
public personality, and when you go out of the house,
sometimes people are going to recognize you. And while you
are lovely with your fans, there have been moments where
(13:15):
maybe somebody approaches you, either from a side or from
a certain position, and it can light up an old
memory network of a boundary violation in the body, and
suddenly you're in a fight or flight survival response and
the fan is just wanting to make contact with you,
but you're having a whole response, and and there's this
(13:35):
whole dynamic that gets set up that under other circumstances
might not happen. Yeah, it happened many times. And I
have to say that the mask culture of the pandemic
has really helped me a lot with going out in
public and really being incognito and just like a normal person.
I love that, and that really has helped me regulate.
(13:57):
I've been more consciously like saying I'm going outside, now,
let's get present. Let's like try to slow it down
and bring it down so that I'm not just like
if somebody like walks too close to me, I don't
freak out. Um, And that's It's like I have to
be very consciously in the other direction, almost like the
hardwiring is to be hyper vigilant about a lack of safety.
(14:20):
And so I almost have to be gently and compassionately
and lovingly hyper vigilant in the other direction to to
not feel like everything is a threat, I guess, but
that's different than vigilance, right, So if hyper vigilance is
in the attic or in the high zone, when you
are intentionally consciously aware that's in your resilience zone, you
(14:43):
might even still be at the upper end of the
resilience zone. You could still be somewhat activated, but not
so aroused that you're in the attic, You're still in
the living room, you're handling it. I call it super tracking.
Our hyper vigilance gets dialed into be super tracking. I'm
very aware of what going on around me, but it
becomes more of a relaxed alert state. What's really been
(15:05):
helping me too? And on This will be useful for
anyone out there. I've been thinking a lot about like
how I need to feel energetically when I go to sleep,
when I want to rest and like just put my
mind at ease and put my body to rest. I've
been trying to sort of like walk in the world
like that. Not that I want to go to sleep
while I'm walking down the street, but I want to
just be so relaxed and at peace. It's like the
(15:27):
sensation of that is better than like a conversation or
better than it's really it's embodied. I guess it feels
more embodied than like because I've tried like affirm affirmations
and positive self talked to counter the negative self talk.
But just that relaxation of like well and and even
that side that you just took sign resets and brings
(15:51):
on the parasympathetic branch, that bright pedal of the body.
What I like about it and about paying attention to
the body is there's no right, are wrong, there's no shoods.
It's just what's happening right now. And if I need something,
what can I bring in to help regulate this now?
It feels like a great time for a short break.
(16:12):
We'll be right back there. Okay, we're back. Let's keep
the conversation going. Can't we just remind everyone what the
(16:37):
resilient zone is and then let's do some skills are
like practice getting into that zone. Yeah, if you picture,
you know, two horizontal lines, one on top of the other,
but there's space in between, and there's a wave that
goes in between that. That's our resilient zone. And the
resilient zone is the place where we're our best sell.
(17:00):
We can have all kinds of different feelings, but we
can manage them, we can communicate about them, we can
pay attention to ourselves and ourselves in relationship to others.
And then when we get bumped out of that resilien zone,
that nice, yummy place, we can go one of two places.
We can get bumped into the high zone, which is
that place of hyper vigilance and panic, like we've talked
(17:20):
about the extreme stress rage states. I just saw red,
like those things that colloquialisms that we say, you know,
in our world and our culture. That's the high zone.
And then conversely, we can go to the low zone,
which is numbed out, very depressed, more than just sad. Right,
this can be disconnected, it can be dissociated like floaty feeling.
(17:43):
It can really feel like that extreme low zone depression,
almost suicidal, almost yeah, And our last conversation we um
the question of connection came up right, that we're hardwired
for connection as human beings. And I was thinking too
about that in relationship to resilience, like when I've been
(18:03):
bumped out in a session with you or just in
the world, like I can't hear, I can't hear, I
can't I can't really connect to someone when I'm bumped
into the high zone, and I can't connect to someone
when I'm in the low zone. So it's like I
could only connect from a place that resilience, like really connect.
And we're hardwired for connection as human beings, so like
(18:25):
the release of the stress hormones or like not being
in the zone keeps us from connection. That's correct. And
and my colleague and friend Kim Cookson calls the resilien
zone also the relational zone. I mean, this is the
place where we are in social engagement. Social engagement happens
from the resilien zone. Right, we don't hear each other.
(18:46):
We actually our whole perception changes when we're in the
higher low zones. We don't actually hear accurately, we don't
perceive tones of voice in the same way when we're
in the higher low zones. Our perspective and perception is
very narrowed when we're in either of those polls versus
when we're in the resilience zone, we really are aware
of ourselves and we can socially engage and connect. I
(19:09):
think that relates to to like, you know, the thing
I always talk about on a macro level, on a
societal level, when we hurt people, hurt people when people
are sort of operating from trauma right in our politicians
have like sort of you know, weaponized as being in fear,
and so we're so afraid and we read a comment
and we can't even like we're not even reading the
comment directly. We're just projecting our own story, our own
(19:32):
trauma onto it, not because we're bad people, because we're
bumped out of our zone, and so we can't even
actually accurately read a comment on the internet. We can't
accurately read a situation around us either when we're bumped
out of our zone. Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's
so key because if I if I am in those
(19:54):
states of high low zone or bouncing back and forth
between those states all the time, and I can't send
into my own resilience that begets more of that. Right. Again,
what we pay attention to is what grows. So that's
all I'm in and I lose my sense of connectedness, right,
And it is in that connection place which we talked
about last time around. I have my own zone and
(20:16):
you have your own zone. But then together we have
that collective the coregulation. The coregulation and sometimes even in therapy,
for example, if I'm in my resilience zone, even when
or if you get bumped out of yours, I'm holding
the resiliency container and I'm lending you my nervous system
(20:37):
that is regulated so that you can reregulate. That is coregulation.
So can we talk a little bit about the six
skills that we use to regulate our nervous distance as
per the Community Resiliency Model. Yes, so the Community Resiliency
Model or CRM has six skills. Most of them are
(20:58):
in the eye chill app as well. If you want
to go look at the at the app for some practice,
and they are tracking, resourcing, grounding, gesturing, shift and stay
and help now. And again, what I really also want
to say is that we're tracking with all the skills.
(21:18):
So that is key. It is the foundational cornerstone of
this practice is because tracking is reading the body, it's
it's noticing what's happening in our body. And then that
practicing these skills, as were about to talk about, if
we can practice when we're already in our zone, we're
actually widening and deepening our capacity for resiliency, which means
(21:40):
less stuff is going to bump me into the higher
low zones, so I actually have more autonomy. We want
to actually also be heartwiring and firing wiring new neuro
pathways in our nervous systems. And so when things are great,
when things are awesome, and Jennifer reminds me a lot,
like you know, I've been having some great time my
boyfriend and like some really wonderful, loving, awesome, incredible times,
(22:05):
you know, being at the house with with with the boy.
I'm just going to go on the way um C
C And I'll tell Jennifer about it, and she's like,
we should bank those, we should bank those in the
nervous system so that when something challenging comes up, I
have these good sensations, there's resources to draw from, and
so that these can become what else is are true.
(22:26):
Later on, I remember in um in Bernie Brown's Call
to Courage, the Netflix special she did, she tells the
story about being on a paddle boat with her daughter
one afternoon and her daughter kind of leaning back and
closing her eyes, and Brinnie asked her what she was doing,
and she said, I'm making a picture memory. And I
do that so that when upsetting things might happen, I
(22:48):
can call up the picture memory that's resourcing. So resource
in this model, in the way that we define it
is anything that gives you comfort, joy or peace in
your life. Her daughter was actually banking a resource in
that moment. And there's this wonderful quote by JFK that
the best time to fix the roof was when the
sun is shining, and that is why we practice when
(23:12):
the good stuff is going on, and just a simple thing,
like you know, it was raining the other night and
CC was like, I love the rain, and I was like,
let's go up to the roof and like, just you know,
watch the rain like fall. It seems so silly, but
it was so beautiful and it was such a beautiful
memory in the view is amazing up there, and I
(23:34):
allowed myself to be in that moment fully and to
feel him and to feel the view and to feel
the rain drops and the breeze, and that becomes a
resource that I can use. So wait, let's pause right there.
Let's pause right there. I'm just gonna work it out, Jennifer.
(23:54):
So let's take that moment and enhance it. So you
just painted this beautiful picture of it raining outside and
you inviting him to the roof and to watch and
feel the rain on your skin and just the view
from the rooftop and even the sounds or the smell
outside of being up on that roof. And I'm just
(24:15):
watching you take a breath right now, as I'm all
I'm doing is feeding your words right back to you.
And as you're in that memory, what else, if anything,
are you aware of in your body right now? Let's
just take a moment and track that in the memory.
I'm aware of him holding me and how safe and
(24:37):
seen I felt. I'm aware and in my body specifically,
it's all over my body. I mean the way he
holds me, but it's like it feels like it's coming
up through my through my guts, from my belly button
up to my like um stern m so Let's notice
that's right now. It's coming from your belly, from your
gut all the way up to your sternum, and you
(24:57):
made this lovely motion which actually just is going to
invite you to slow that down a little bit. This
motion of bringing your hand up from your belly to
your stern um and what happens inside as you do
that with your breath or it made me want to exhale,
and then I just I mean, I just thought about
(25:17):
and I thought about the way he smells and the
way he looks at me. I noticed the laughter and
the smile. So now we're paying attention to the sensory
experience of the story of being with him. Yeah, that
is the slowing down. That is the tracking what's happening
in your body right now in this moment. I almost
(25:39):
feel some tears wanting to come. Um. I'm so happy
when I'm with him in a way that like I
never imagined, And sometimes it feels like too much and
it gets scary because it's it's pure joy, and it's
so pure and just feeling very whole and safe, like
really really stage so right now in this moment, notice
(26:04):
the sensation of whole and safe on the inside. Just
take a moment and let yourself be aware of whole
and safe in your body. Um, and just noticed, tears
are a release. Tears are release in the nervous system.
Oh my gosh. And that exhale. Noticed the exhale, m hm,
(26:29):
and the nodding of the head. You know, sometimes will
not our heads when things feel very congruent. I'm just
gonna invite you to marinate. And what I think is
really important to point out is that you're not with
him right now. You're not on the roof right now.
I know it's thundering where you are, but you're not
in the rain right now, right And so that is
(26:51):
the beauty of our nervous system, our body and resourcing especially.
It doesn't matter that you're not on that roof. Your
body is experienced sing it like it's happening right now.
The nervous system does not know past, present, future or
fact from fantasy. One more time, the nervous system does
not know past, present, present, future, or fact from fantasy,
(27:15):
or a fact from fantasy that reminds me of what
Dr Joe Dispensa says about their body be unconscious. Mind
does not know the difference between reality or a thought
that we've created. That's right. They do it in sports
a lot as well. Or if you've ever watched the Olympics,
(27:35):
even like the ski runs that people do, and you'll
see the skier at the top doing the course, they're
like moving their body the way the course is going
to go. They're running it in their body before they
even go down that hill, and the nervous system is
responding in kind. So that is the real benefit to
(27:56):
chasing the resiliency, to focusing on the pleasant and new.
It's not a denial that these things happened in our lives.
It's not a denial of the oppression that people are
experiencing or have experienced. It is the both. And because
what helps me then deal with that is by cultivating
the strength and resiliency in my nervous system. And we
(28:18):
have to actively practice when I think the embodied piece
of the resources. I was just you know, I am
in a lovely apartment in New York right now, and
this view is insane and I'm not always able to
take in the view. So it's like there has to
be a conscious connection to the resource. Right, there's incredible beauty.
If I can like slow myself down enough to take
it in that can be a resource. I mean that's
(28:39):
also maybe a little help now too well, but it's
it's both and they do overlap. Yeah, So the health
now skills are when we are really bumped out in
the high or low zone, we need something very quickly
that can come in and regulate us. And so this
is a list actually on the actual app, there's a
list of ten things, but I often invite people to
(28:59):
add to it because actually the scent one is not
quite on there as far as I can recall. But
I invite people really to pick out maybe two that
speak to you, and those are the ones that you
practice with. I have the ones that are my go
to ones. Those are the entry point because maybe I'm
too bumped out to even find my resource, but I
(29:20):
can find a help now scope and I can do that,
and that might get me notched down or notched up
enough in order to find a resource, and then I
can get more back in my zone. And that's really
the point of them. Got love help Now. These skills
do overlap, and you're going to find that, like when
we're inter weaving the gestures with the resourcing and all that.
(29:40):
You know, we can talk about gesturing in a moment.
But yes, the key about resourcing that I think is
so important is that we need to tell the story
of the resource to make it alive enough that when
I go into the body for the sensory experience, it's
big enough to override my automatic lenin to distress, brilliant.
(30:03):
It completely mirrors what Dr Dodas spans it talks about
that he says that an experience, that experience becomes our
unconscious mind. Right. So, and you said in the last
podcast that we received most of our information from the
body to the head and the other in the opposite direction.
So we have to tell the story of the experience
so that it feels real for us in our bodies
(30:25):
and our in our nervous systems to override the habit,
the programming of the maladaptive um stress response. That's exactly right.
It can't just be like, oh, Laverne, think about that thing.
Sometimes a resource is powerful enough that I could say, oh,
just think about your boyfriend, right, and I'm sure that
(30:46):
would light up already. It starts a cascade going. But
isn't it much more rich when you tell me the
story of the roof. And then if that got too
big and too much, let's say hypothetically we were in
a session, I would justly bring us back to the
part of the resource that's really pleasant. It wasn't sad.
It I was crying because I was I was so happy,
(31:08):
Like the tears were coming because I was so happy
and it and it also felt like, oh my god. Safety,
you know that the thing of like so much of
what I'm struggling with in my body right as much
as like intellectually I'm like I'm safe, my nervous system
she doesn't feel safe. You know, I'm forty nine years old.
(31:29):
I can't keep living with this toxic stress. And I mean,
you know, there's all the studies about heart disease, about diabetes,
about the negative health consequences that come from this. But
like it feels like a matter of life or death.
It's time for a short break. When we come back
more with our guest, we are back picking up where
(32:06):
we left on the way politicians get reelected. The way
like media organizations like get us to click on things
is to like make us outraged afraid, and we click
and then we like, and then it's just we get
addicted to that, and we keep going and it's stressful,
(32:28):
and we're all stressed out and worried. It's the cycle
that's going on inside our bodies. But then it's like
everything external that I feel like I have to put
down as well if I want to survive. I think
you're right, it is a public health crisis, which means
there's a biological imperative that we take some action and
(32:50):
do this daily to actually regulate, because otherwise, how are
we going to deal with this life, in this world
and this planet that we're on right now? How are
we going to do it? And I think that speaks
to your question of how do we bring it in?
And again I'm not in any way knocking meditation practices
or you know, other forms. What I love about these
(33:12):
skills more than anything is how fast I could do them.
I don't have to sit for twenty minutes to get regulated.
I can actually get regulated in about thirty seconds if
I can pay attention, you know, if I do, for example,
I help now skill which I'm just going to name
a couple, it could be like sipping something warm or cool.
(33:33):
It could be looking around the room and naming colors
or naming items in the room, you know, pushing on something,
pulling something. Those things are very quickly regulating for the
nervous system. If we then pay attention to how that
shifts in the inside. And when you speak to practicing,
there's a technique called habit stacking. Habit stacking. I love that.
(33:55):
I don't know what it means, but it sounds really cool.
Habit stacking is that on a mint of habits stacking
on ama, I just like saying on Amonopeia anyway, go no.
So can we notice though right here the word can
be a resource. You like saying it and you're laughing
and giggling and the brightness of your smile, Like anything
(34:16):
that doesn't suck can be a resource. And so with
habits stacking. Habits stacking is about taking something new that
you want to practice and pairing it with something that
you already do. So if I brush my teeth every
morning and every evening, I'm going to pair practicing my
resourcing or practicing grounding, or practicing a help now skill
(34:39):
while I'm also brushing my teeth, or before after I'm
brushing my teeth, so I do it at the same time.
So then again you're creating new habits, pathways, new neural pathways,
new neuropathways, neuroplasticity, and we're breaking the habit of being
ourselves in the parlance of Dr Joe just spins that.
(34:59):
And what is great and encouraging about the world right
now is that a lot of there is a lot
of talk about self care and mental health, like publicly
right now and Naomi Asaka just I don't know why,
I just she just her withdrawing from the French Open
citing mental health and then like it, making international news
feels like a huge intervention for some reason to me,
someone like me, and I think for a world that
(35:21):
is so like about success, right like that in America
were like I want to be successful. I have internalized
I have to work harder than everybody else, Like I
have to work twice as hard. I have to like
just nose to the grindstone and just give it, give
it given. I want to go hard, but like my
nervous system is like saying no, Like you know, it's
so funny because like I want to be Beyonce and
(35:42):
j Lo, Like I look at those women and I'm
like they are clearly working harder than everybody else and
that's why they're more successful, right, And so like I
want to work harder than everybody else. But maybe they
don't have the same trauma and stress talks of stress
that I do. I don't know, maybe they don't. But
also we don't know what they do to cultivate rest
and play in their own lives as hard as they're working.
(36:03):
Let's remember that one of Bernet's guide posts a wholehearted
living is cultivating rest and play. And I'm letting go
a productivity and self worth, right, which is hard for
some of us. I know I am an over classic,
over function or over worker, and it's hard I think
being a helper, you know, being in a helping profession.
(36:25):
I want to be of help. And so if somebody
needs a session, the question is am I also practicing
what I preach? Am I'm modeling what I'm doing? Or
am I still in that over functioning which kind of
can perpetuate that higher zone state. Well, you've told me
I can't pour from an empty cup, So yeah, I
mean again, like we can remind folks that these we
(36:46):
wanted to just really key in on resourcing today. Let
them the last conversation we talked about tracking and shiftin
s Day. You can listen to that last podcast, And
really this is about for me. It's again act seeing
these skills when things are going well, because I've been
I had a panic attack in the airport. Oh that
was bad. I was a mess girl. I called you
(37:08):
and you said, do you have any throat coat tea
bags in your purse? And I did because I often
carry throat coat tea bags because that can you open
it up? Can you just smell the tea bag? And
I mentioned this because that helped a little bit. It
got in a little bit. But once I'm in my
high zone, once I'm in the panic attack, it is
(37:30):
almost impossible for me to actually practice these skills, at
least on my own. Well, I also think biologically, once
you're in the wave of a panic attack, you're kind
of riding that wave into the shore at that point.
So the whole hope is that we can actually practice
tracking enough that we can then catch the ramp before
it goes all the way up, and then we might
(37:52):
be able to extinguish that and thwart a panic attack.
The other thing I want to just note here with
the scent is the ural factory bulb our sense of
smell is the only sense in the body that links
directly to the amygdala, which is the fierce appraisal center
of the brain, and so it holds really highly charged memories. Right.
(38:13):
Why does it do that? Well, if there's smoke on
the horizon, I need to know to run away, or
if the meat is bad, I know I need to
know to not eat it. So it needs to give
me cues really quickly. But it can also those scents
can really quiet those yummy the throat coatie or like
I was just saying, the you know, the old book
smell or scent of lavender for me is another scent.
So it started to help. It started to poke in there,
(38:35):
even in that moment, And that's a help now scaled
that we can draw on immediately and then maybe callbody.
But I could even I was so bumped out, I
couldn't even get bring myself to think to pull out
the t bag. No, at that point, No, at that point,
you're borrowing from another person's prefrontal cortex to help you
(38:57):
get regulated. You're borrowing the thinking brain of somebody else
because you're thinking brand has gone offline in that moment
and that's great, brilliant. We schoually just do a little bit.
Gesturing basically is one of the skills and we're running
at a time, but I just wanted to we we
mentioned in and basically it's like, can you just talk
briefly about gesturing and we can incorporate it a little
bit into the resource um And as you said earlier,
(39:18):
we can move do multiple things at once with these skills,
we can. And with gesturing, what we're really paying attention
to is, let's say when you were in the resource,
the gesture you're making is often either enhancing or intensifying
the resource, or it's also the body and the nervous
system is settling, and the gestures will be ones of release,
so I can feel my body letting go of that,
(39:40):
and we'll make hand gestures or arm gestures that signify that.
So we pay attention to that in this model, and
we track it. We slow it down because typically gestures
happen below consciousness. We're not aware of it, like I
talked with my hands all the time, but some of
the gestures can be really poignant, and when we slow
them down, the actually deepen and intensify the state of relaxation,
(40:03):
or there might be some protective gesture, like I wanted
that person to just stop and I put my hand out.
That's a protective gesture. Setting a boundary is really important,
and we might pay a somatic attention to that. And
there's two more. One is self soothing. So people that
play with your hair like you play with your hair
actually quite a bit um and I would say that's
(40:24):
a self soothing gesture if you call attention to it.
Or some people twiddle their thumbs, or some people shake
their foot or shake their leg. Those things are self
soothing gestures, and they're typically very socially acceptable gestures. So
we would intensify them, make them so then I could
do it consciously, and then that could actually be soothing
(40:44):
and calming for my system. And then the other our
universal spiritual gestures like prayer hands or open palms, like
those kinds of gestures, hand to the heart. We've seen
that all over the world. So those are the gestures
that we can cultivate and pay attention to. What I
love about gesturing as again as an actor and a
danswer is that it is physicalized. Check Off has this
(41:07):
idea of the psychological gesture there may be as something
that the character does, a specific particular movement that a
character does that gives us clues about who that person
is emotion or a movement that can get you right
into character. So it's really interesting thinking about this in
relationship to what you're saying, what Dr Joe says, in
terms of like these resources that, once embodied, they can
(41:30):
become a rehearsal for the person that we want to be,
a rehearsal for the life that we want to live,
for the resilience that we want to um live in,
rehearsal for the zone, rehearsal for you know, the new
character that we're creating that is ourselves. I love that. Yeah, totally,
I love that. I love it too. Okay, So you
(41:52):
know we in the podcast with the question what else
it's true. We've been talking about that the whole time.
But for you, Jennifer today, after this way else it's true. Well,
I just want to thank you again. I want to
thank you for having me back. I know it's a
vulnerable thing when we're engaged in a therapy process already
to then make that more open, and I'm just I'm
(42:14):
touched and moved and also just honored because I really
have so long felt that these skills are so so
readily accessible and so needed, and it feels so good
for me to be able to to get this out
to a wider group of people, because these skills really
honestly saved my life. Um, I knew you were going
to ask me this question again today and I thought,
(42:37):
Oh my god, what am I going to share? What
else is true? What else is true? And I thought
about vulnerably sharing a resource of mind because I'm looking
at a picture of it right now. Well, music is
a huge resource for me, and I like all different
kinds of music wide ranging, you know, operative heavy metal
and everything in between, but sting in particular is a
(42:58):
big resource for me. Several years back, I actually got
an opportunity at a sound check to sing with him
on stage, and that was I can feel it like
bubbling up right now. What you say with staying at
a sound check? What? How did this happen? How did
(43:19):
this happen? I was with a friend of mine and
we had sound check passes, and he at one point
during the sound check said, Okay, who wants to help
me out on this next song? And I'm raising my
hand frantically, and my friend actually was pointing at me
because she knows I like to sing. And so he said, oh,
your friends nominating you, So you come up, and he
picked one other girl. And as we're both going up,
(43:41):
the woman says in my ear, she says, can you sing?
And I said yes, and she says, oh, good, because
I can't sing. And I'm like okay. And so we
go up on stage and you know, he's really nice,
and he, you know, gives us what. We're going to
share this mic. Right, We're gonna sing every breath you take.
We're gonna sing every breath you take. And he's going
to sing the first line and then I'm going to
(44:02):
sing the next line. She's going to sing the third,
and we're going to go round about like that. And
then I got to harmonize with him, and we sang
the entire song from front to back. Did he take
the melody and you took like a higher harmony or
did did you take the melody and he took a
harmony I'm I'm wanting he was on the melody line
and I took a higher harmony. And then he said, oh,
she's harmonizing. Now. I love that that is so epic.
(44:27):
That is definitely what else is do? That's a resource?
Oh my god? And is there a photo of you
with staying? Is that what you're looking at? Well, there's
He came to l A with his UM the Last
Ship with his Broadway show, and I waited at the
stage door when he and he came out. So I
actually have a picture of him with my arm around
him in my hand on his chest. So that's the
picture I'm looking at right now. I love you waiting
(44:50):
at this stage door for staying. Like that makes me
like really happy. I've waited at the stage door too
in my day. Yes, And can we just notice right
now in the connection that we're having right now in
this moment, in that resource way, and what that's like.
We're co regulating, we are, we are, We're doing the
(45:13):
skills not even knowing it. But now that you've pointed
it out, we can bank this moment. We can bank
the like sharing of this this staying stories epic. I
love staying. I'm actually my boyfriend and I we UM
on vacation. We were singing every breath you take as well,
like not with staying well with the recording is staying,
not like standing next to him and the STIPU take.
I'll be watching you watching okay on that note, podcast
(45:45):
has gone very free willing, okay. Thank you so much. Jennifer.
Are you on social media? People follow you somewhere. I
do have a website, Yes, the website. I have a website.
They can find me at Jennifer Burton m f T
dot com. Thank you so much. I love it. Thank you.
(46:08):
I hope that in finding Jennifer back and going deeper
into the work of the community Resiliency model has helped
you to understand this process more and how you may
be able to use it in your life. I'm obsessed
right now with habits stacking. While I'm brushing my teeth,
I can practice the resource. I love what Jennifer shared
(46:32):
with us encouraged us to do around practicing the skills,
rehearsing them in an experiential way, and it's very much
related to what Dr Doda spins I talked about that
we need the experience of it to override the hardwiring,
to override the trauma pathways. For me specifically, I love that.
I love that this is related to the work that
(46:54):
we talked about with doctrinating Borke Harris, the attachment theory
work that we talked about with Dr Wendy, washed self
come fashion peace that we talked about with Kristin Neff,
to post traumatic slave syndrome. So all of these things
are connected. You know, I've been with Jennifer for five
years now, and she brought up attachment theory, she brought
up you know, adverse childhood experiences, et cetera. Right, and
(47:17):
there's only so much that we can get to at once,
so easy does it. We don't want, like the therapeutic
process to be too much, too fast, too soon, So
we have to take things in pieces. Right. It's like
an onion that you sort of feel. You peel back
one layer and there's another one. Jennifer has given us
some very concrete work that we can do right now,
some help now that we can do so that we
(47:40):
can connect to the world around us, so that we
can connect to the things that make us human. And
best of luck to you in your search for your
resilience for being the very best version of yourself. M H.
(48:08):
Thank you so much for listening to the Laverne Cox Show.
Join me next week for my conversation with multi award
winning actor, singer, director, composer, playwright, fashion icon, the one
and only Billy Porter. I mean girl, How can you
miss it? Please? Rate, review, subscribe and share with everyone
(48:33):
you know. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter
at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real.
Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox
(48:57):
Show is a production of Shonda land Audio in partners
it with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Laverne Cox
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