January 13, 2020 • 30 mins
Have you ever felt like having a day job to pay the bills makes you somehow less of a creative? What if that day job turns you into a pioneer of a brand-new field? Mikhael Tara Garver is a living example of this — she’s a director, experiential architect, founder of experiential entertainment studio 13Exp, and recently joined Category41 as Head of Experiential Entertainment. Mikhael shares how her theater background and love of spreadsheets led her to create experiences, and why her work is tailor-made for Human Venn Diagrams. Plus, we're sharing our best project management strategies and learning methods to help you stay at the forefront of whatever field you’re in.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Limit Does Not Exist is a production of I
Heart Radio. Okay, I'm Christina Wallace and I'm Kate Scott Campbell.
We're here to help you follow your curiosity, celebrate your individuality,
(00:20):
and embrace the and not the ore, so you can
turn everything you love into a custom built career that's
as unique and dynamic as you are. If you feel
that one path may not be your only path, and
you call yourself a human bend diagram, then you are
in the right place, because when it comes to pursuing
your passions, we believe the limit does not exist. Have
(00:44):
you ever felt like having a day job to pay
the bills makes you somehow less of a creative or
that you're not a real artist or innovator because you
need things like structure, stability and health insurance in order
to do great work. Well, fear not, because the truly
bright up side is that paying the bills can give
you the flexibility to forge a path that fits your
(01:05):
unique set of interests. Take that outdated starving artist construct.
Our guest this week is a living example of this.
Michael Tara Garver is a theater director, experiential architect, and
founder and executive director of thirteen e x P, an
experiential entertainment studio. Michael has worked with big brands, avant
(01:25):
garde theater companies, nonprofits, and many others to create what
she calls experiential narratives. What does an experiential architect do?
You might wonder. Good question You're going to find out
as you join us in taking a deep dive into
what makes an experience and experience And if you ask us,
experiential storytelling is a field that is tailor made for
(01:49):
human ven diagrams. So let's meet Michael, Let's do it.
I call myself an experiential architect, but that's because I've
been called so many other things that for a long
time I was trying to find the word that felt
the most true. Um not because all the other words
weren't true, but because constantly changing what I was calling
(02:12):
what I do to the situation wasn't working as well
as I'd like. But those words sometimes were Like a director,
I come from being a director, an immersive director and
immersive designer, an artivists and activist and experiential designer. What
else I've never heard artivists before? Yeah? No, there's a
(02:33):
lot I don't feel like I definitely social justice is
a huge part of my work. But I would say
I know so many amazing artivists in the world right
now that I take that that term very seriously. But yes,
there's some incredible ones out there right now. So there's
all those terms that were used for years depending upon
(02:55):
which room I was in. Totally that is a challenge
that we know well on this show, particularly when you
are in this really path paving work, and it might
be a great next step to just ask you what
is an experience? Experiential architect not a question? Okay, we're
(03:16):
getting deep from right and stumping right into dig right in.
So first of all, I think an experience is something
that we encounter with our whole being. That's what I
like to think about. And we're not as practiced at
encountering things with our whole being anymore. Now that's not
(03:37):
me saying, you know, I'm anti technology, in fact, the
opposite of that. So I come originally from in my
early early years a theater background, and why we've made theater,
why in the beginning, and why we made television and
why we make all these things were how we reflected
back what it is to be human. That is literally
(03:57):
what all of this is for, right, and um, we
reflect podcasts are about us trying to understand in a
longer form what it is to be human, and it
is a particular form. So to me, what experiential is
is it's a concert of all the live and digital
ways that we are human, using that to create a
(04:20):
full experiential either narrative or moment or wonder. I'm most
interested in narrative, but so I use both live and
digital ways to do that because we live both live
and digitally. You know, I'm in this room right now
with Kate, like I'm not in this other room with you, right,
Like there's a there's a way in which this is reality,
(04:43):
and so pretending it's not I think it was always
problematic to me, but also relying on it and not
figuring out how it transitions to live things. So that's
to me what how I define That's how I define it.
But it also has to do with like send Surrey too, right,
So I could get super nerdy and talk about how
(05:05):
memories are imprinted in our being because of more than
one sense, so you know we have a memory is
fascinating and endless but when we're using just one sense,
it's hard for our beings, our bodies to implant them,
you know, for long term. And so one of the
reasons we're in a the age of experience, I would argue,
(05:28):
which people have stated, which I think just basically means
like you have to do more for people to remember
things like you. There's so much out there that for
it to imprint, it has to be more depthful. You know,
there's so many people screaming that if you just yell
out and a good idea, no one's going to hear it.
I love that term, that adjective depthful. What does that
(05:49):
mean to you? Does that mean that you're sort of
imprinting through multiple mediums and ways? I laugh because one
of my colleagues, who has worked for me for years, Max,
hates when I use that word because it's not real
and so like he'll be like editing my stuff and
he's like, that is not a real word. I know
you love to use it, but I don't care. I
(06:10):
love making up wordwards all the time. I mean, I
call myself an experiential architect like there um, so for me,
depthful is that as opposed to thinking of stories as linear.
I think of story and narrative as like how far
does the trunk go down into the soil? Right? And
(06:31):
so there are certain experiences when the trunk is not
down embedded into the soil, you can kind of knock
the tree over right totally. But so it's just a
little like that was beautiful. That's a beautiful tree. I
can still knock it over if I push it hard enough.
What I think where we're at right now with experiences.
(06:53):
You know, with there are incredible instant museums happening, there
are incredible wow moments happening. But what we really are
craving our experiences where the roots are so embedded you
can't knock it over, And then what ends up happening
is communities of people gather around those trees and suddenly
you have fans. Clearly, you have been making experiential work
(07:16):
for a long time. Um so while you know, maybe
we are in the age of experiences now and some
people are just becoming aware of that. Like you've been
creating this work for over two decades. What was your
way in What was that first immersive experience you worked on?
I had to pay my bills and I had to
run a nonprofit theater company in Chicago. And we were
(07:37):
founded in um June of two one, and our first
show was supposed to be in November. So I couldn't,
in any sort of good feeling go out and raise
money after September eleven. Totally, it just wasn't a real thing.
It wasn't even like a question. And I was coming
up in Chicago and I had to start solving a
(07:59):
financial problem. And so one of the ways I did it,
and that was because I was wanted to pay artists
and all those things. So one of the ways I
did it is I started creating these events that would
now be called experiential events. And I was like, oh,
it's the interaction and it's creative and it's fun. That
then people will spend money as a part of joyful experience,
(08:20):
not because they're just paying for a ticket. And so
I started to learn how to gamify spending money. We
made something like two thirds of our annual budgets doing that.
What was like an example of one of those early
we called we called one of our events the March Hair.
It was all Alice in Wonderland themed every year, and
instead of it being a gala. It was all interactive,
(08:42):
gamified and now no one would be surprised by it.
It's what you see in experiential parties and and gamification
all the time, right, I mean, I think ours was great,
but but in particular, like that was unique. Also, I
was trying to selve problems by and because of the
great Chicago community. I was partnering with local small businesses,
(09:03):
so we might do an experience that they would pay
for and that would be their holiday party and then
and so that was that. And then on the art
making side of it, I was also interested in partnering
with businesses, so we'd have people. You know, we had
a show that was around an Irish faith healer and
it was February and Chicago, and we had people enter
through the back alley, go down a set of stairs
(09:26):
and suddenly be in this massive abyss of a room.
Before they walked to a light at the end of
that room a doorway, and then they were in a
small space that smelled of whiskey that was, you know,
less than a quarter of the size of this big,
cavernous space they'd walked into. And so I was just playing, right,
I was like, and it wasn't just me with designers,
(09:46):
but I was really just playing. I was figuring out
how to tell story in all the different ways and
how to experience stories. So, you know, the theater term
that used a lot is like show, don't tell, and
I maybe just kept pushing at that. I'm so interested
in how you you know, you went from creating these
(10:09):
you know you're you're working to raise money to put
on theater, Like, was there a shift at one point
where you went, Okay, these experiences that I'm making, You know,
this is the thing I want to keep walking towards
this versus this is supporting me directing plays. So I
think that. So at the same time, right, I had
another full time to help, because we all have to
(10:30):
pay those and that full time job was working for
a small business, a group of athletic clubs in Chicago,
and the owner of who gave me a lot of
just kind of saw in me the ability to think
about marketing and sales in a way that was authentic
and real. And so while I'm raising this money, I'm
also in this marketing space in which we're actually trying
(10:50):
to connect to communities. So at the time I think
I thought like oh, these are all disparate parts of
my life. And now I realized those were the threads
of a b aid that was going to come together.
And I don't actually think, to be very honest, until
maybe like two years ago, did I really see that truly?
Two years ago, I was like, oh, right, because yeah,
(11:17):
and like and I don't think along the way, I
was going, oh, I have to do these experiences for this,
and I have to do this for this. I actually
enjoyed all components of all of it. I thought that
made me less of an artist, because I was like,
I actually really enjoy doing this thing, you know, and
there's that culture that makes you not. And then I
(11:37):
started to go like, who cares? This is what I'm doing,
And well, there is this stigma brown, like if I'm
not just pursuing this one modality like this this one mode,
then I'm not dedicated enough to that part of my craft.
I mean, that's when when there's mean voices in my head.
That's what they say, you know. Yeah, even the idea
that like, oh, if you have to have any other
(11:59):
jobs to port yourself, then you haven't made it yet
as a creator as an artist. Yeah, I mean, I
say this. I would say this to my students all
the time, which is, I don't really care what your
creative life ends up looking like. You're a creative So
if that means that working at a bookstore so you
can go home and write your plays allows you to
feel more creative, then that's more important than if you like.
(12:26):
For other people, being an admin and in a casting
office is actually really helpful. They learn a lot from that.
And then for other people it's like, I actually really
like working at this law firm, or actually I've found
a way to be teaching art or whatever those things are. Yeah,
it's like Einstein who worked at the patent office. That's
exactly right. Yeah, that his science, But totally it's so
(12:50):
personal an individual. Do you have your own experiential entertainment
(13:10):
studio called XP? What are you making now? What I'm
making now? Right is XP? Because it is this engine
that hasn't existed, and within that there's all of these
different projects. And I suddenly realized two years ago that
if I wanted these projects to happen as experiential was growing,
(13:30):
there needed to be an engine, and that the experiential
field was primarily commercials um a brand would would would
do it, or they were like super hits like Sleep
No More and you can't replicate Sleep No More, no
matter how many times people asked me to, because I
was I was lucky enough to be an associate associate
(13:53):
director on that. That's not my work, but I worked
on the original in Boston. I another museum of something
is not necessarily lead the answer to every question. Yes,
I had this thought of what if the first original
content experiential studio which could hold all this i P
had been developing, not just of mind but with all
(14:13):
the creators had social impact in its DNA and that
it was original, and so brands, instead of making experiential
could by advertising and it would end up looking the same.
But then the content will be better, have a longer duration,
and so the project is right now. There are many projects,
butt XP is at the helm of those. For sure.
(14:36):
What I love about this, Michael, is is you're talking
about this there's still these like distinct areas. And maybe
it didn't feel like that at the time, but from
what I'm hearing is you had these like sort of
marketing commissions jobs over here, and then you had your
social justice community and colleagues over here, and you had
the commissions from theater companies and institutions over here, And
(14:59):
what it feels is you going, okay, how can I
continue to integrate this work? I'm fascinated because your work
obviously requires a solid knowledge of a bunch of different mediums.
You know, you intersect with technology. You obviously have a
very sharp business acumen. You are dipping a toe, slash, foot,
(15:21):
arm whatever in like all these different fields. How have
you continued to expand your skill set and your how
do you learn as you are kind of adding each
of these different tools to your toolbox. I think that's
been both the best part and the hardest part. Right so,
(15:42):
I am definitively curious to a fault. I will dive
in head first and ask a lot of questions. I
think there are certain rooms in particular where I've paid
a lot of attention to listen much longer than I speak.
I think that also it has had a lot to
do with being clear as much as I can with
(16:05):
myself and then with the people who I'm working with
what our goals are, because they can't be everything the
first time. I think that also I've failed a lot,
like I've been in rooms in which I have all
the best intentions. I know I do, and I and
they probably know I do, but it just doesn't work
(16:27):
because I'm not there yet, I'm not understanding the language
yet or they're not ready. So, working in a project
based career and now heading up your own studio, we
want to know what are some of your personal project
management strategies. So I'll say a couple of things. One is,
I've learned that some sort of stability is required for
me to feel creative. And until I feel that some
(16:47):
sort of stability, I will organize to the end. So
like I'll keep writing lists like there's a there's a
I forget who says this, but like the sixth time
you write down the list, it's no longer how helping
you because you're just spending time writing down lists, right,
So I love that the first five times are absolutely
(17:10):
but six it's six and you know you don't um
you know. So I also was brought up or came
up as an artist, believing that organization would It was
how we took care of people, right, So to me,
I was I'm always thinking about, like, well, if my
team and I are disorganized, then a person who I'm
(17:30):
communicating with via email doesn't feel valued, and so to me,
that's like the most important thing that our organization systems do.
One could say that's good business. One could say that's
also just like a value right right, making people feel safe.
It's important taking care of and like I get emails
that are everything from a student to a person who
(17:52):
wants to hire us, and so I want everyone to
be responded to and respected. At the same time, I
would be lying if I did not say that there
are times in which that desire takes over my life.
My desire that when my students who are my former students,
who are super important to me, email me and are
(18:13):
having some sort of question around what they're doing, not
personally but professionally, that I want to get on that phone, right,
And I'm not patting myself on the back about it.
In fact, I think I at times will use that
to avoid the really sticky work that needs to get done.
We use things like base Camp. Yes, uh, I think
(18:34):
that there is a way that, for better or for worse,
that my brain, my creative brain, has been about building
these Like you know, I love a good chart, so
building a spreadsheet is how I tell story. Right, there's
twelve simultaneous stories happening at the same time, while there's
sixteen audience tracks. So that's just naturally how I began
(18:58):
to tell story. So that means that, unfortunately or fortunately
for my team, I am thinking in multiplicity. One point, Michael,
(19:23):
when I was doing what we like to do, which
is our casual Google stocking of our guests. You know,
I heard you use this phrase of these sort of
narrative systems supported by structured code and by architecture, and
that term of your title as architect. I think, you know,
as a creative myself, I've once had this acting teacher
(19:44):
tell me that, you know, acting was like you build
a trampoline and you've got to make sure every screw
was in place in all of the springs and so
that then you have something to jump on. And so
I love that image of like just seeing the storylines
and the audience and you know, uh trajectories. The library Alexandria,
(20:05):
which happens in public libraries, was built that the first
three quarters of it is solitary, because our experience in
a library is very solitary, often at first, and you're
searching for something for yourself and then there's this big
communal coming together. And so that is the easiest example
to say, like, I'm also looking at how the way
(20:26):
an audience experience is something, and that's the one where
we for the first time built eighteen simultaneous tracks that
ran through a working library at once. And so my god,
that's but like, let's be super clear here, like that's
what my brain comes up with. And then I have
amazing collaborators like Will Pickens and Carl Faber who are like,
(20:49):
that's crazy what you want to do, and then they
figure it out with some sort of thing, and then
we figure out the systems, you know. So it's not
by any means just me um, but I but I
do think that like the crazy idea oftentimes is because
I see the spreadsheet as a whole, and then is
the work of etching down into it. So this goes
(21:10):
back to organization, which is like I see the vision
as a whole. And the hard part of saying no
to things or over committing is that in the structure
of a spreadsheet, nothing is more important than anything else,
and so it gets really hard if that's how you
look at the world, to remind yourself that you have
(21:32):
to also do the work of prioritizing. Clearly, you know,
you found your way into this through a background in
theater and also this equal love of organization and seeing
that big picture. What other roads could lead someone into
a career creating experiential work. How might some of our
(21:52):
listeners who have an interest thing that sounds cool I
want to do that? What sort of paths might they
consider going down in order to be prepared to do
this type of work When a young person is coming
into it, my feedback is always going to be point
at the things that you're excited about and ask those
(22:13):
people if you can work with them, don't worry about
what it's called, don't worry about what it means if
you work with them and not someone else. But also
like if it's not in front of you and you
don't know what it is. We are also at this
point and and you know, at a moment where as
much as we are becoming a field, we are becoming
(22:34):
a field. So that means those of us who are
leaders in it are much more accessible than leaders in
other fields. Oh, I love that. I'm looking in the
visual arts world, I'm looking in the social justice world.
I'm looking in the entertainment world. I'm looking. I'm really
looking to see if you're interested in not being in
one world. Yes. So if you're if you're curious and
(22:57):
you're going to keep asking questions and be curious about
all the worlds, and you're not an artist or organizer
or leader or creative who needs it to be yours only,
then I'm interested in Okay. I love how tactical Michael
(23:18):
gets when she talks about using spreadsheets to keep track
of the different narratives and pathways through an experience that
she's designing. Yeah. I think so many times artists talk
about their inspiration or the vision for the work they've created,
which is fine, but they leave out the nuts and
bolts of how they actually build the thing. It's so
(23:38):
so true, and how that thing is built is really
often I'd say maybe always piece by piece, right. You know,
talking with Michael made me feel a little less crazy
in our love of base Camp to keep track of
all of the moving pieces for this podcast. I know
that you get many a base Camp alert email from
(23:59):
me and when I'm creating new to do lists in there,
but you know, it really helps us both. You know,
when you're juggling a lot of projects or even just one,
you really do have to become your own master of
project management. Absolutely. Plus I appreciated her honesty about how
she collaborates with so many different people and ultimately how
(24:21):
she's accountable to them, which means not over promising, for example,
or for ensuring that she communicates clearly the vision that
is in her head. I mean, obviously, spreadsheets are one
way to do it when it's something involving like timelines
or numbers or you know, all things math. Pinterest boards
(24:41):
are also an incredible tool. I know you and I
use them a lot to organize and share visual information
as well. Oh yes, you know my love for the
pinterest board runs deep. But yeah, I think that's so true.
You know. We often talk about how you often start
by creating something, and then once you've created a thing
(25:01):
and you have more people you're working with, then all
of a sudden you're managing, right, And I really loved
Michael's transparency with how she's working with her team members
to keep them engaged and inspired and feeling seen, you know.
And I also loved hearing her talk about how she
learns new skills. You know, it's so embedded in being
(25:26):
on the cutting edge of a new field or doing
work that combines different worlds and different genres. Right, being
a kind of continuous learner is a job requirement, is Christina?
Where do you go to learn new things? It's such
a good question. I mean, honestly, it's any number of places. Really.
We've talked on the show about the classes I took
(25:47):
at n YU to learn more about computer science and
some of the small group like workshops for creative nonfiction writing.
I've also used apps like duo Lingo when I want
to learn foreign language gills, and you know, even online
resources like skill share like former guest Stephanie Pereira offered,
or honestly, YouTube YouTube totally, so many good videos, everything
(26:13):
from like how to tie a bow tie to installing
babylocks our kitchen cabinets. Um, I don't know. I just
I think for people who want to be continuous learners,
there's never been a better time to have access to
you know, experts sharing that expertise for low or no costs.
(26:35):
What about u K Where do you go to learn
new skills? I love all of those resources. I'm a
big fan of learning things online. You know, a friend
of mine and I both really wanted to learn some
basic photoshop skills for different jobs, and we took this
online class together. Like we just set a date at
her house and we would go and watch the videos together,
and it was just a really great way to do
(26:56):
it with a friend of our little school together. Yeah,
and you know, I have to say so much of
how I've grown as a producer and a director has
been on the job, and it's been everything from like
realizing that I needed to put a shot list together
and not knowing what a shot list looks like, and
finding a downloadable pdf online that's right, or a downloadable
(27:22):
Excel spreadsheet and then brushing up on my Excel skills
and watching a video about all of the above. You know. So,
I think I'm just a huge fan of learning by
doing right. There's no substitute for experience. And I think
that if you can continue to find opportunities even at
the job that you currently have, or the jobs that
(27:45):
you currently have that may not be your ultimate job.
But particularly I found even working for smaller brands, it
might be more open minded about me just trying out
a skill that's adjacent to what I have but it's
still new for me really sound ways even in the
work I currently have to build my skill set. So
take a look at all the tools that you use
(28:08):
to manage and collaborate across your projects. And if you're
still using pen and paper and you know those scraps
of paper keep going missing, Christina, you know me so well,
no judgment, take an hour or two this week and
try out some of these digital tools to see if
they're worth making the switch totally. I mean, we mentioned
(28:28):
that we use base camp. Christina, you have extolled your
trell oh praise on our podcast. I've become a recent
user of Asana, and I have to say I really
like it. It is just like me assigning tasks to me,
but it feels very empowering. So let us know what
your favorite resources are for learning new skills and from
(28:50):
managing new projects. We love hearing your updates and your questions.
You can reach us on Twitter or Instagram at tld
n E pod or you can email us at Hello
at t l d n E podcast dot com, or
if you're not afraid of the telephone, you can leave
us a voicemail at eight three three High, t l
d N e. That's eight three three eight five three
(29:13):
six three, and don't forget to dial the extension eight
oh three when you call to leave a voicemail. If
we can just keep the voicemail, the art of the
voicemail alive on our show, have the films so so happy?
We will link to XP and to some of those
project management tools we mentioned in the show notes, which
you can find at t L d n E podcast
dot com. Slash from one o five. Thanks so much
(29:43):
to our producer Maya Coole and Tu for tuning in.
As always, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts
if you like what you heard. It really helps us
get the word out to fellow human ven diagrams. Until
next time, remember the limit does not say. The limit
(30:04):
does not exist. Is a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Yeah
The Limit Does Not Exist is a production of I
Heart Radio. Okay, I'm Christina Wallace and I'm Kate Scott Campbell.
We're here to help you follow your curiosity, celebrate your individuality,
(00:20):
and embrace the and not the ore, so you can
turn everything you love into a custom built career that's
as unique and dynamic as you are. If you feel
that one path may not be your only path, and
you call yourself a human bend diagram, then you are
in the right place, because when it comes to pursuing
your passions, we believe the limit does not exist. Have
(00:44):
you ever felt like having a day job to pay
the bills makes you somehow less of a creative or
that you're not a real artist or innovator because you
need things like structure, stability and health insurance in order
to do great work. Well, fear not, because the truly
bright up side is that paying the bills can give
you the flexibility to forge a path that fits your
(01:05):
unique set of interests. Take that outdated starving artist construct.
Our guest this week is a living example of this.
Michael Tara Garver is a theater director, experiential architect, and
founder and executive director of thirteen e x P, an
experiential entertainment studio. Michael has worked with big brands, avant
(01:25):
garde theater companies, nonprofits, and many others to create what
she calls experiential narratives. What does an experiential architect do?
You might wonder. Good question You're going to find out
as you join us in taking a deep dive into
what makes an experience and experience And if you ask us,
experiential storytelling is a field that is tailor made for
(01:49):
human ven diagrams. So let's meet Michael, Let's do it.
I call myself an experiential architect, but that's because I've
been called so many other things that for a long
time I was trying to find the word that felt
the most true. Um not because all the other words
weren't true, but because constantly changing what I was calling
(02:12):
what I do to the situation wasn't working as well
as I'd like. But those words sometimes were Like a director,
I come from being a director, an immersive director and
immersive designer, an artivists and activist and experiential designer. What
else I've never heard artivists before? Yeah? No, there's a
(02:33):
lot I don't feel like I definitely social justice is
a huge part of my work. But I would say
I know so many amazing artivists in the world right
now that I take that that term very seriously. But yes,
there's some incredible ones out there right now. So there's
all those terms that were used for years depending upon
(02:55):
which room I was in. Totally that is a challenge
that we know well on this show, particularly when you
are in this really path paving work, and it might
be a great next step to just ask you what
is an experience? Experiential architect not a question? Okay, we're
(03:16):
getting deep from right and stumping right into dig right in.
So first of all, I think an experience is something
that we encounter with our whole being. That's what I
like to think about. And we're not as practiced at
encountering things with our whole being anymore. Now that's not
(03:37):
me saying, you know, I'm anti technology, in fact, the
opposite of that. So I come originally from in my
early early years a theater background, and why we've made theater,
why in the beginning, and why we made television and
why we make all these things were how we reflected
back what it is to be human. That is literally
(03:57):
what all of this is for, right, and um, we
reflect podcasts are about us trying to understand in a
longer form what it is to be human, and it
is a particular form. So to me, what experiential is
is it's a concert of all the live and digital
ways that we are human, using that to create a
(04:20):
full experiential either narrative or moment or wonder. I'm most
interested in narrative, but so I use both live and
digital ways to do that because we live both live
and digitally. You know, I'm in this room right now
with Kate, like I'm not in this other room with you, right,
Like there's a there's a way in which this is reality,
(04:43):
and so pretending it's not I think it was always
problematic to me, but also relying on it and not
figuring out how it transitions to live things. So that's
to me what how I define That's how I define it.
But it also has to do with like send Surrey too, right,
So I could get super nerdy and talk about how
(05:05):
memories are imprinted in our being because of more than
one sense, so you know we have a memory is
fascinating and endless but when we're using just one sense,
it's hard for our beings, our bodies to implant them,
you know, for long term. And so one of the
reasons we're in a the age of experience, I would argue,
(05:28):
which people have stated, which I think just basically means
like you have to do more for people to remember
things like you. There's so much out there that for
it to imprint, it has to be more depthful. You know,
there's so many people screaming that if you just yell
out and a good idea, no one's going to hear it.
I love that term, that adjective depthful. What does that
(05:49):
mean to you? Does that mean that you're sort of
imprinting through multiple mediums and ways? I laugh because one
of my colleagues, who has worked for me for years, Max,
hates when I use that word because it's not real
and so like he'll be like editing my stuff and
he's like, that is not a real word. I know
you love to use it, but I don't care. I
(06:10):
love making up wordwards all the time. I mean, I
call myself an experiential architect like there um, so for me,
depthful is that as opposed to thinking of stories as linear.
I think of story and narrative as like how far
does the trunk go down into the soil? Right? And
(06:31):
so there are certain experiences when the trunk is not
down embedded into the soil, you can kind of knock
the tree over right totally. But so it's just a
little like that was beautiful. That's a beautiful tree. I
can still knock it over if I push it hard enough.
What I think where we're at right now with experiences.
(06:53):
You know, with there are incredible instant museums happening, there
are incredible wow moments happening. But what we really are
craving our experiences where the roots are so embedded you
can't knock it over, And then what ends up happening
is communities of people gather around those trees and suddenly
you have fans. Clearly, you have been making experiential work
(07:16):
for a long time. Um so while you know, maybe
we are in the age of experiences now and some
people are just becoming aware of that. Like you've been
creating this work for over two decades. What was your
way in What was that first immersive experience you worked on?
I had to pay my bills and I had to
run a nonprofit theater company in Chicago. And we were
(07:37):
founded in um June of two one, and our first
show was supposed to be in November. So I couldn't,
in any sort of good feeling go out and raise
money after September eleven. Totally, it just wasn't a real thing.
It wasn't even like a question. And I was coming
up in Chicago and I had to start solving a
(07:59):
financial problem. And so one of the ways I did it,
and that was because I was wanted to pay artists
and all those things. So one of the ways I
did it is I started creating these events that would
now be called experiential events. And I was like, oh,
it's the interaction and it's creative and it's fun. That
then people will spend money as a part of joyful experience,
(08:20):
not because they're just paying for a ticket. And so
I started to learn how to gamify spending money. We
made something like two thirds of our annual budgets doing that.
What was like an example of one of those early
we called we called one of our events the March Hair.
It was all Alice in Wonderland themed every year, and
instead of it being a gala. It was all interactive,
(08:42):
gamified and now no one would be surprised by it.
It's what you see in experiential parties and and gamification
all the time, right, I mean, I think ours was great,
but but in particular, like that was unique. Also, I
was trying to selve problems by and because of the
great Chicago community. I was partnering with local small businesses,
(09:03):
so we might do an experience that they would pay
for and that would be their holiday party and then
and so that was that. And then on the art
making side of it, I was also interested in partnering
with businesses, so we'd have people. You know, we had
a show that was around an Irish faith healer and
it was February and Chicago, and we had people enter
through the back alley, go down a set of stairs
(09:26):
and suddenly be in this massive abyss of a room.
Before they walked to a light at the end of
that room a doorway, and then they were in a
small space that smelled of whiskey that was, you know,
less than a quarter of the size of this big,
cavernous space they'd walked into. And so I was just playing, right,
I was like, and it wasn't just me with designers,
(09:46):
but I was really just playing. I was figuring out
how to tell story in all the different ways and
how to experience stories. So, you know, the theater term
that used a lot is like show, don't tell, and
I maybe just kept pushing at that. I'm so interested
in how you you know, you went from creating these
(10:09):
you know you're you're working to raise money to put
on theater, Like, was there a shift at one point
where you went, Okay, these experiences that I'm making, You know,
this is the thing I want to keep walking towards
this versus this is supporting me directing plays. So I
think that. So at the same time, right, I had
another full time to help, because we all have to
(10:30):
pay those and that full time job was working for
a small business, a group of athletic clubs in Chicago,
and the owner of who gave me a lot of
just kind of saw in me the ability to think
about marketing and sales in a way that was authentic
and real. And so while I'm raising this money, I'm
also in this marketing space in which we're actually trying
(10:50):
to connect to communities. So at the time I think
I thought like oh, these are all disparate parts of
my life. And now I realized those were the threads
of a b aid that was going to come together.
And I don't actually think, to be very honest, until
maybe like two years ago, did I really see that truly?
Two years ago, I was like, oh, right, because yeah,
(11:17):
and like and I don't think along the way, I
was going, oh, I have to do these experiences for this,
and I have to do this for this. I actually
enjoyed all components of all of it. I thought that
made me less of an artist, because I was like,
I actually really enjoy doing this thing, you know, and
there's that culture that makes you not. And then I
(11:37):
started to go like, who cares? This is what I'm doing,
And well, there is this stigma brown, like if I'm
not just pursuing this one modality like this this one mode,
then I'm not dedicated enough to that part of my craft.
I mean, that's when when there's mean voices in my head.
That's what they say, you know. Yeah, even the idea
that like, oh, if you have to have any other
(11:59):
jobs to port yourself, then you haven't made it yet
as a creator as an artist. Yeah, I mean, I
say this. I would say this to my students all
the time, which is, I don't really care what your
creative life ends up looking like. You're a creative So
if that means that working at a bookstore so you
can go home and write your plays allows you to
feel more creative, then that's more important than if you like.
(12:26):
For other people, being an admin and in a casting
office is actually really helpful. They learn a lot from that.
And then for other people it's like, I actually really
like working at this law firm, or actually I've found
a way to be teaching art or whatever those things are. Yeah,
it's like Einstein who worked at the patent office. That's
exactly right. Yeah, that his science, But totally it's so
(12:50):
personal an individual. Do you have your own experiential entertainment
(13:10):
studio called XP? What are you making now? What I'm
making now? Right is XP? Because it is this engine
that hasn't existed, and within that there's all of these
different projects. And I suddenly realized two years ago that
if I wanted these projects to happen as experiential was growing,
(13:30):
there needed to be an engine, and that the experiential
field was primarily commercials um a brand would would would
do it, or they were like super hits like Sleep
No More and you can't replicate Sleep No More, no
matter how many times people asked me to, because I
was I was lucky enough to be an associate associate
(13:53):
director on that. That's not my work, but I worked
on the original in Boston. I another museum of something
is not necessarily lead the answer to every question. Yes,
I had this thought of what if the first original
content experiential studio which could hold all this i P
had been developing, not just of mind but with all
(14:13):
the creators had social impact in its DNA and that
it was original, and so brands, instead of making experiential
could by advertising and it would end up looking the same.
But then the content will be better, have a longer duration,
and so the project is right now. There are many projects,
butt XP is at the helm of those. For sure.
(14:36):
What I love about this, Michael, is is you're talking
about this there's still these like distinct areas. And maybe
it didn't feel like that at the time, but from
what I'm hearing is you had these like sort of
marketing commissions jobs over here, and then you had your
social justice community and colleagues over here, and you had
the commissions from theater companies and institutions over here, And
(14:59):
what it feels is you going, okay, how can I
continue to integrate this work? I'm fascinated because your work
obviously requires a solid knowledge of a bunch of different mediums.
You know, you intersect with technology. You obviously have a
very sharp business acumen. You are dipping a toe, slash, foot,
(15:21):
arm whatever in like all these different fields. How have
you continued to expand your skill set and your how
do you learn as you are kind of adding each
of these different tools to your toolbox. I think that's
been both the best part and the hardest part. Right so,
(15:42):
I am definitively curious to a fault. I will dive
in head first and ask a lot of questions. I
think there are certain rooms in particular where I've paid
a lot of attention to listen much longer than I speak.
I think that also it has had a lot to
do with being clear as much as I can with
(16:05):
myself and then with the people who I'm working with
what our goals are, because they can't be everything the
first time. I think that also I've failed a lot,
like I've been in rooms in which I have all
the best intentions. I know I do, and I and
they probably know I do, but it just doesn't work
(16:27):
because I'm not there yet, I'm not understanding the language
yet or they're not ready. So, working in a project
based career and now heading up your own studio, we
want to know what are some of your personal project
management strategies. So I'll say a couple of things. One is,
I've learned that some sort of stability is required for
me to feel creative. And until I feel that some
(16:47):
sort of stability, I will organize to the end. So
like I'll keep writing lists like there's a there's a
I forget who says this, but like the sixth time
you write down the list, it's no longer how helping
you because you're just spending time writing down lists, right,
So I love that the first five times are absolutely
(17:10):
but six it's six and you know you don't um
you know. So I also was brought up or came
up as an artist, believing that organization would It was
how we took care of people, right, So to me,
I was I'm always thinking about, like, well, if my
team and I are disorganized, then a person who I'm
(17:30):
communicating with via email doesn't feel valued, and so to me,
that's like the most important thing that our organization systems do.
One could say that's good business. One could say that's
also just like a value right right, making people feel safe.
It's important taking care of and like I get emails
that are everything from a student to a person who
(17:52):
wants to hire us, and so I want everyone to
be responded to and respected. At the same time, I
would be lying if I did not say that there
are times in which that desire takes over my life.
My desire that when my students who are my former students,
who are super important to me, email me and are
(18:13):
having some sort of question around what they're doing, not
personally but professionally, that I want to get on that phone, right,
And I'm not patting myself on the back about it.
In fact, I think I at times will use that
to avoid the really sticky work that needs to get done.
We use things like base Camp. Yes, uh, I think
(18:34):
that there is a way that, for better or for worse,
that my brain, my creative brain, has been about building
these Like you know, I love a good chart, so
building a spreadsheet is how I tell story. Right, there's
twelve simultaneous stories happening at the same time, while there's
sixteen audience tracks. So that's just naturally how I began
(18:58):
to tell story. So that means that, unfortunately or fortunately
for my team, I am thinking in multiplicity. One point, Michael,
(19:23):
when I was doing what we like to do, which
is our casual Google stocking of our guests. You know,
I heard you use this phrase of these sort of
narrative systems supported by structured code and by architecture, and
that term of your title as architect. I think, you know,
as a creative myself, I've once had this acting teacher
(19:44):
tell me that, you know, acting was like you build
a trampoline and you've got to make sure every screw
was in place in all of the springs and so
that then you have something to jump on. And so
I love that image of like just seeing the storylines
and the audience and you know, uh trajectories. The library Alexandria,
(20:05):
which happens in public libraries, was built that the first
three quarters of it is solitary, because our experience in
a library is very solitary, often at first, and you're
searching for something for yourself and then there's this big
communal coming together. And so that is the easiest example
to say, like, I'm also looking at how the way
(20:26):
an audience experience is something, and that's the one where
we for the first time built eighteen simultaneous tracks that
ran through a working library at once. And so my god,
that's but like, let's be super clear here, like that's
what my brain comes up with. And then I have
amazing collaborators like Will Pickens and Carl Faber who are like,
(20:49):
that's crazy what you want to do, and then they
figure it out with some sort of thing, and then
we figure out the systems, you know. So it's not
by any means just me um, but I but I
do think that like the crazy idea oftentimes is because
I see the spreadsheet as a whole, and then is
the work of etching down into it. So this goes
(21:10):
back to organization, which is like I see the vision
as a whole. And the hard part of saying no
to things or over committing is that in the structure
of a spreadsheet, nothing is more important than anything else,
and so it gets really hard if that's how you
look at the world, to remind yourself that you have
(21:32):
to also do the work of prioritizing. Clearly, you know,
you found your way into this through a background in
theater and also this equal love of organization and seeing
that big picture. What other roads could lead someone into
a career creating experiential work. How might some of our
(21:52):
listeners who have an interest thing that sounds cool I
want to do that? What sort of paths might they
consider going down in order to be prepared to do
this type of work When a young person is coming
into it, my feedback is always going to be point
at the things that you're excited about and ask those
(22:13):
people if you can work with them, don't worry about
what it's called, don't worry about what it means if
you work with them and not someone else. But also
like if it's not in front of you and you
don't know what it is. We are also at this
point and and you know, at a moment where as
much as we are becoming a field, we are becoming
(22:34):
a field. So that means those of us who are
leaders in it are much more accessible than leaders in
other fields. Oh, I love that. I'm looking in the
visual arts world, I'm looking in the social justice world.
I'm looking in the entertainment world. I'm looking. I'm really
looking to see if you're interested in not being in
one world. Yes. So if you're if you're curious and
(22:57):
you're going to keep asking questions and be curious about
all the worlds, and you're not an artist or organizer
or leader or creative who needs it to be yours only,
then I'm interested in Okay. I love how tactical Michael
(23:18):
gets when she talks about using spreadsheets to keep track
of the different narratives and pathways through an experience that
she's designing. Yeah. I think so many times artists talk
about their inspiration or the vision for the work they've created,
which is fine, but they leave out the nuts and
bolts of how they actually build the thing. It's so
(23:38):
so true, and how that thing is built is really
often I'd say maybe always piece by piece, right. You know,
talking with Michael made me feel a little less crazy
in our love of base Camp to keep track of
all of the moving pieces for this podcast. I know
that you get many a base Camp alert email from
(23:59):
me and when I'm creating new to do lists in there,
but you know, it really helps us both. You know,
when you're juggling a lot of projects or even just one,
you really do have to become your own master of
project management. Absolutely. Plus I appreciated her honesty about how
she collaborates with so many different people and ultimately how
(24:21):
she's accountable to them, which means not over promising, for example,
or for ensuring that she communicates clearly the vision that
is in her head. I mean, obviously, spreadsheets are one
way to do it when it's something involving like timelines
or numbers or you know, all things math. Pinterest boards
(24:41):
are also an incredible tool. I know you and I
use them a lot to organize and share visual information
as well. Oh yes, you know my love for the
pinterest board runs deep. But yeah, I think that's so true.
You know. We often talk about how you often start
by creating something, and then once you've created a thing
(25:01):
and you have more people you're working with, then all
of a sudden you're managing, right, And I really loved
Michael's transparency with how she's working with her team members
to keep them engaged and inspired and feeling seen, you know.
And I also loved hearing her talk about how she
learns new skills. You know, it's so embedded in being
(25:26):
on the cutting edge of a new field or doing
work that combines different worlds and different genres. Right, being
a kind of continuous learner is a job requirement, is Christina?
Where do you go to learn new things? It's such
a good question. I mean, honestly, it's any number of places. Really.
We've talked on the show about the classes I took
(25:47):
at n YU to learn more about computer science and
some of the small group like workshops for creative nonfiction writing.
I've also used apps like duo Lingo when I want
to learn foreign language gills, and you know, even online
resources like skill share like former guest Stephanie Pereira offered,
or honestly, YouTube YouTube totally, so many good videos, everything
(26:13):
from like how to tie a bow tie to installing
babylocks our kitchen cabinets. Um, I don't know. I just
I think for people who want to be continuous learners,
there's never been a better time to have access to
you know, experts sharing that expertise for low or no costs.
(26:35):
What about u K Where do you go to learn
new skills? I love all of those resources. I'm a
big fan of learning things online. You know, a friend
of mine and I both really wanted to learn some
basic photoshop skills for different jobs, and we took this
online class together. Like we just set a date at
her house and we would go and watch the videos together,
and it was just a really great way to do
(26:56):
it with a friend of our little school together. Yeah,
and you know, I have to say so much of
how I've grown as a producer and a director has
been on the job, and it's been everything from like
realizing that I needed to put a shot list together
and not knowing what a shot list looks like, and
finding a downloadable pdf online that's right, or a downloadable
(27:22):
Excel spreadsheet and then brushing up on my Excel skills
and watching a video about all of the above. You know. So,
I think I'm just a huge fan of learning by
doing right. There's no substitute for experience. And I think
that if you can continue to find opportunities even at
the job that you currently have, or the jobs that
(27:45):
you currently have that may not be your ultimate job.
But particularly I found even working for smaller brands, it
might be more open minded about me just trying out
a skill that's adjacent to what I have but it's
still new for me really sound ways even in the
work I currently have to build my skill set. So
take a look at all the tools that you use
(28:08):
to manage and collaborate across your projects. And if you're
still using pen and paper and you know those scraps
of paper keep going missing, Christina, you know me so well,
no judgment, take an hour or two this week and
try out some of these digital tools to see if
they're worth making the switch totally. I mean, we mentioned
(28:28):
that we use base camp. Christina, you have extolled your
trell oh praise on our podcast. I've become a recent
user of Asana, and I have to say I really
like it. It is just like me assigning tasks to me,
but it feels very empowering. So let us know what
your favorite resources are for learning new skills and from
(28:50):
managing new projects. We love hearing your updates and your questions.
You can reach us on Twitter or Instagram at tld
n E pod or you can email us at Hello
at t l d n E podcast dot com, or
if you're not afraid of the telephone, you can leave
us a voicemail at eight three three High, t l
d N e. That's eight three three eight five three
(29:13):
six three, and don't forget to dial the extension eight
oh three when you call to leave a voicemail. If
we can just keep the voicemail, the art of the
voicemail alive on our show, have the films so so happy?
We will link to XP and to some of those
project management tools we mentioned in the show notes, which
you can find at t L d n E podcast
dot com. Slash from one o five. Thanks so much
(29:43):
to our producer Maya Coole and Tu for tuning in.
As always, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts
if you like what you heard. It really helps us
get the word out to fellow human ven diagrams. Until
next time, remember the limit does not say. The limit
(30:04):
does not exist. Is a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
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