August 24, 2021 • 49 mins
After a long night in jail, Beulah and Rebecca finally have a long-overdue tête-à-tête . Elaine Brown comes to Liberation Radio to talk about Little B, a thirteen-year old black boy who was sentenced to life in prison
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Someone had told me a month ago I'd end up
in a jail cell after my best friend pulled a
gun on me and admitted she had caused my sister's eyes.
I would have left my ass off. It would have
been too crazy even for fiction. But now that I'm
currently living that exact reality, there's not one amazing thing
about it. Owen said it best. There is a sad
(00:26):
kind of irony about me being on the other side
of the law. Trespassing is a misdemeanor at the very least,
felony at the worst. I'll be lucky if I ever
passed another security clearance. What was I thinking? In my mind?
I keep rewinding that last scene of the train station,
Poppins picking up the gun and pointing it at Officer Corey,
(00:46):
who then shot him first. The bullet went right through
his shoulder, but Poppins cried and screamed so much I
thought he was dying. Eventually, Corey's backup arrived and a
paramedic came to pick up Poppins. All three of us
were arrest did. The weirdest part was the fact that
nobody could find the gun. Poppins have pointed out, He's
(01:16):
gonna have y'all take no step back, lad it's her,
my so called friend. They took her out of the
cell hours ago, and now she's back. How can she
keep that smug look on her face when it's so
clear we're all unbelievably screwed? Are you still going to
ignore me? Even in this tiny cell? We have nothing
(01:36):
to talk about? Flappings is okay? In case you were wondering,
that's supposed to be funny. He's an idiot who almost
got us all killed. I hate to tell you this,
but you did not mask the test good. Your little
anarchy club sucks. Maybe you should keep your voice down
you see any of these zombies here are listening? When
did you become like this? Like what? You're like a
(01:57):
cross between an h O, a manager in a library,
and hard to believe you and Savenna are even related.
Don't talk about Savanna after what you did. Savennah was
not some helpless victim to be manipulated. She was a
grown ass woman with strong reliefs. Give her some credit.
At least she tried to use her lights gat privilege
for good, not evil. Sure, make it about colorism now,
(02:19):
So when did you become like this? Me? I've been
the same from day one. Baby, Oh you've changed. You
used to be just a normal, opinionated afrocentric say it loud,
I'm black and I'm proud Berkeley grab and now you're
like the ringleader of random white people do a fucked
up ship? You please stop talking so about it down.
How do you even have the nerve to say something
(02:39):
so stupid? You really have no clue how funked up
the institutions you take for granted her, as if wearing
a shiny badge makes you immune from being capable of
outright terrorism. This isn't just about ally SHIP or BLM
or forcing the masses to recognize white privilege, not anymore so.
To answer your stupid question, let me ask you a question.
(03:02):
Al right, go, when you were in the FBI, assuming
you're no longer in the FBI, did they tell you
how many black people could congregate together before they were
considered a domestic threat? Oh? Come on, I'm serious? Was
it five forty? With that logic, the FBI would consider
every black church a terrorist organization. Fair point, But let's
(03:24):
face it, turning the other cheek isn't really conducive to
the pursuit of justice. So what's your point that the
FBI is a racist organization. It's a little more settled
than that, and you know it. The FBI is a
fear based organization, fear of black retribution. So it's safer
for me to identify as an anarchist than a black nationalist.
I'm less likely to be investigated by your people. When
(03:45):
I surround myself with various types of people. It confuses
them when they can't categorize a person based on their race.
Agents at the FBI follow their noses. There's no conspiracy
or bias based on race. White supremacist groups received the
same treatment January six. If I didn't know what a
conniving bit you are, you're naivete would almost be cute.
(04:08):
And if I didn't know what a budding baby terrace
you are, I'd say you're anger would almost be just
Ay was a white supremacist. If stopping these people was
a priority, how is it that he's been able to
infiltrate a major police department in an urban city. You
can't stop every single bad guy out the information we
have on him, it's not hard to find. We found
out pretty easily, and we're not professionals. With training in
(04:28):
background checks. Not hard to trace someone social media is,
so she is in background. It's not fair. I get it.
The system isn't perfect, right, that's the problem. We give
these institutions the benefit of the doubt, Yet we don't
extend the same courtesy to our imperfect citizens, who are
the products of the imperfect system. Yes, come on, what
(04:56):
but let's go. Go on. By the way, you're well,
you know, if your current gig doesn't work out, you
ought to see if there's an opening a quantico. I'll
take that as a compliment, just this once. Needless to say,
my days of freelance leading are over. I don't know
(05:18):
how Rebecca managed to pull this off, but I am
so over these surprises. Is she taking the fall? What
about Owen? All right, here are your belongings. I need
you to sign these forms and you're out. I'm not
(05:41):
being charged with anything, not that I know of. What
about the cop who arrested us? Look, you're not being charged.
How about you? Let that be enough? Sign here? Grandma?
What are you doing here? What do you think I'm
doing here? Girl? Let's go. I have no desire to
stand around here. My grandmother is the last person I
(06:05):
want to see right now, after everything she's been through
with Savannah, she shouldn't have to worry about me too, Hey,
stay out of trouble on his hands now, there wasn't
anything close by. I parked a couple of blocks away.
(06:28):
It took me twenty minutes to find a spot. Downtown
Elk isn't what it used to be. Sorry, Yeah, you
must be. I'd be sorry too if I were you,
really sorry, I had no idea. First you come home
with a dentist car, and now I'm picking you up
from the police station. Are you spoken weed again, Rebecca?
She's no, No, you don't. I don't even think about
(06:50):
bringing Rebecca into this. You look, you are not fourteen,
and you can't excuse yourself by blaming your friends. But
you don't understand she's the reason Savannah is that He
that maybe the Savannah bears the ultimate responsibility for her
own actions, just like you do. This is more than
just Savannah. Rebecca is involved in some deep, crazy stuff
like what well, I'm not exactly sure, but it involves
(07:14):
the police and the fires and Antifa or anarchy. They're
very vague about what it is they do. Rebecca is
paying the bill for in home care. She raised the
money for your sister. That doesn't sound like anarchy to me.
That's true, and I'm starting to suspect she might be
a sociopath. I don't know why you think this is
a joke. You're missing with your future here. No one
(07:36):
is taking this more seriously than I am. Graham. This
isn't what I expected to happen when I came back here.
You're not helping me or yourself by staying in Oakland,
certainly not helping Savannah. I think you should go back
to the academy Grant. I can't. It doesn't work that way.
They'll understand. Just explain everything to them. No, well, you
(07:58):
can't stay here. It's a bad influence on and these
days the only people who stay in old learned people
who aren't really from here, are people who are trapped here. Correctly,
Grandma's family is Louisiana Creo, and she's always carried superstitious
notions with her growing up. It should be crazy because
she was usually right. I guess I'm stuck here that
(08:21):
so you're content to be the shadow little ghost? Is
that what you think of Savannah? A ghost? She's not
coming back Bulla. People wake out of comas all the time. Sure,
it's rare, but I think it could be possible. It's not.
Statistically speaking, it isn't possible. Since when do you care
about statistics? What about faith? Bullah, It's common sense. Savannah
(08:46):
asked me not to tell anyone, but Grandma should know.
She deserves to know. She did. She did wake up.
It's impossible. It was only for a little while. She
came to and she told me everything. I have no
doubt that you spoke to her, But she did not
tell you anything. She did. No, No, I heard you
(09:08):
that day in her room, Bulah. Wasn't nobody in there
talking about you? What Grandma? She told me how Rebecca
was behind everything. Maybe you wanted to believe it so
bad that I don't know you hallucinated. I'm not crazy.
I didn't say that. Sometimes even I think I can
hear her. But we've got to be realistic. Since when
(09:31):
has anyone accused me of being unrealistic? Please go live
your life. You've been here less than three weeks and
you're already in trouble. I have this awful feeling that
if you say something bad is going to happen to you.
I just can't lose you both. Not like this, Fine,
(09:52):
I'll think about it. Maybe I can make some calls
to see if they'll take me in next year's class. Honestly,
I don't mind being back in Oakland, despite the drama
with Rebecca. I know grand things to step down, but
being close to Savannah is the only thing that feels
right at this point in my life. But deep down
(10:13):
I also know she's right. Being here as an adult
has been an out of body experience. If you look
get in the car, what are you looking at? Sorry?
Just deep in thought. You ever listened to Rebecca show? No,
(10:37):
not my thing I do. From time to time Sometimes
Savannah would go on and I tune in a lot
of the stuff they talked about I didn't understand. In retrospect,
I think I probably should have asked more questions, listened
a little closer. Anyway. I say this because I feel
if you took a listen to one episode in particular,
(10:58):
maybe you'd understand your sister a little better and you'd
see that her actions were truly her own. No one,
not even Rebecca, had to convince her to be who
she was. I don't have the energy to extend any
compassion to Rebecca. I really don't. The healing process starts
with you accept in reality and forgiving yourself. That has
(11:18):
nothing to do with Rebecca. Whatever you say, Grandma m hello,
how you twe you? We get that gun unless we
(11:39):
do something about that cadre of young people, tens of
thousands of them born out of wedlock, without parents, without supervision,
without any structure, without any conscience developing, because they literally
have not been socialized. They literally have not had an opportunity.
(12:03):
We should focus on them now, not out of a
liberal instinct for love, brother and humanity, although I think
that's a good instinct, but for simple pragmatic reasons. If
we don't, they will, or a portion of them, will
become the predators fifteen years from now. And we have
(12:26):
predators on our streets that society has, in fact, in
part because of us neglect created Again, It does not
mean because we created them that we somehow forgive them
or do not take them out of society to protect
my family and yours from them. They are beyond the pale,
many of those people beyond the pale, and it's a
(12:50):
sad commentary on society. We have no choice but to
take them out of society. Liberation Radio presents a conversation
with former Black Panther leader, activist and author of the
Condemnation of Little By Elaine Brown, hosted by Rebecca and Savanna. Now,
(13:14):
who's coming up? It's me again with someone and you're
related to the FBI. FBI woman wants to be in
the FBI. Rebecca and Savannah Now, so welcome Elaine again.
Thank you so much for coming on our show and
(13:35):
speaking with us. We really appreciate it, of course. Um. Yes,
we often hear horror stories about incarcerated black men and
women who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes they didn't commit.
Michael lewis Ak Little b was just thirteen years old
when he was in prison for a murder he didn't do.
(13:55):
Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that
story and how someone like Michael fell through the cracks
of the system. Right, Well, and I thank you for
that question. But let's first of all, not pretend that
the system has a safety net for anybody, especially any
black boys. So he didn't fall through any cracks. It
was a hole waiting for him to just walk over it,
and it was the entire Black community of Atlanta, and
(14:19):
don't want to just give a quick background. So when
Michael was eight, as he told me as I came
to know him, his house had become the crack house.
That's what do you mean? And he said, you know
everybody was in there smoking crack, including his mother. And
as he said later on, my mother smoked up the water,
smoked up the water, meaning the water got turned off
where she needed to put that money in that pipe? Right?
(14:41):
So no, not no, not no hot water, no water.
So at eight years old, he was the guardian of
himself and his five year old sister and they would
have to go to school to get food, and so
he would get her dress, comb or hair whatever. I said.
We were there a lot of people. I mean, it
was a crack how what do you mean? No, when
(15:01):
that made people? It was just this how I talked,
it's probably I said, well, how many people? Is not
that make people? No more than about twelve twelve people
are sleeping in the place where you live, that are
all smoking crack while you're a little kid at eight
years old, How did you want? I know how to
watch my own clothes. I used to go up to
the bank head and go take it, get the buggy
and go up to bank head and I get well,
how did you get money? Well, I got it from
my older brothers. And then he just sell a little
(15:23):
dope for them or whatever eight or you know, run
a package somewhere. You understand what I mean, because that
was a very very hope, very big dope area. There
was a movie, a document really you could call it
a documentary called Snow in the Bluffs. It said Bluffs,
but it was called the Bluff note f And that
was one of the heaviest drug areas of Atlanta. And
really it was in the pipeline coming up from Miami,
(15:46):
uh and as just a drug center. It was just unbelievable.
And so as he got older, um the court he
went to court several times through the school he went
to court because in the in the under the Georgia law,
do you've nile child that is being uh mistreated or something,
you don't go take the mother or the parent to
court for violation. You take the child to juvenile court
(16:09):
to say whether or not the child has deprived. So
he was given deprivation hearings every several times, and ultimately
the state removed him from the home, as if there
were a home, and he went into forster care and
it was very bad, so he ran away. They captured
they captured him, as he thought of it, meaning the
foster care defacts Department of Family and Children's Services. Uh.
(16:30):
They took him. Then they arranged to get him into
another force to home a woman and her husband that
his mother knew. So you already noticed some danger in that. Uh.
And he not only did the man beat him, as
he said, with his fists, and he was ten at
this time, but the woman, the mother, molested him at
ten years old. Now, at that point he ran away
(16:54):
from everything to what he knew, which was his brother
dealing dope on the streets of the bluff. So he
started dealing dope to survive. Not imagine yourself trying to
survive it eleven years old on the street. One of
the place he slept was so he said, I could
always find someplace to sleep. I was never homeless. No
homeless says, you don't have a home. It's not in
an encampment. You just don't have anywhere to live. You're
(17:15):
sleeping on somebody's couch, you're sleeping in a garage. You
don't have a key to a place where you put
your things up, you know, and you have a little
meal you can cook them. You were homeless, and one
of the places where he slept was in the elevator
of what would be the or Martyr Station in Atlanta Martya,
you know, Metropolitan Atlanta Transit so forth, rapid transit. So
(17:37):
he would lock the elevator in between floors. After after that,
you know, train stopped running and sleep there because it
was safe to be there. And you are twelve and
at thirteen, um, some guy was killed in front of
this store in the heart of the bluff, a store
that nobody would have gone to. First of all, you
(17:59):
would have never found it, but you definitely wouldn't have
any reason to go into it because it was one
of those stores. It was a crean that owned it,
but all outside dope being sold here. Because in the
bluff you could buy everything from crack, cocaine, powder, cocaine, ecstasy, weed, uh,
you name it, just depending on what you need. They
had enough people out there selling and it was so
(18:20):
open that you didn't you don't have to ask you
a question. So everybody from the Atlanta University Center, like
spelling more house, uh um and uh whatever the other
ones are that I can't suddy think of all those
college kids would go over to the bluff because it
was very close and get some weed, get some code.
It was open that nothing's gonna happen to you in
the bluff if you're buying. Everybody wants you to be happy.
(18:43):
White boys coming down from Buckhead, white college students at
Georgia Tech. Everybody knew you could roll through the bluff
and get some goddamn dope. And there wasn't anything that
you couldn't get if you had some new stuff that
they hadn't heard up, like when ecstasy came out. They're
gonna comma date your need. They were selling like you
can't believe. And the only other people that were out
(19:04):
on the streets of the bluff with the crackheads. So
at some point this man and woman roll up to
this little store that you know can't be selling anything
at all, you know, maybe fake care in the package,
maybe some some old milk, just nothing. And the wife
says she gets out of the car and go get
the soda and comes back, doesn't have enough money and
(19:25):
goes back to pay for the soda. Here's gunshot and
the husband has been shot through the window. He's in
the passenger seat and blasted through the window and kill.
Now that's the story they tell, that little bit, the
thirteen year old boy who was not even five ft
tall at the time, because a lot of these children
that are born in these neighborhoods, they were really malnourished,
(19:46):
like like t I, they're all little believe or not.
It's a really strange I mean, this is my observation.
This has not been a scientific for my observation. Anyway,
he gets charged with the murder, and it's not like
he got charged. It was a week later and they
had a big picture of him on the front page.
And wait, I thought you didn't show with juvenile spaces
what happened to that part? And they said this thug
(20:09):
in quotes because you can use yellow journalism when you quote,
when you words, it's not me, you think he's ad
the pardon me, it's I'm quoting Lieutenant Hooby Boom. Right. Uh,
this thug's charged with what you barely see, the charge
with murdering a good black father. So now we have
the set up on the black community and the setup
(20:30):
is there's this bad black this super predator is Hillary
Clinton popularized it. Um, these bad boys, I'm messing up
our community. We would be free. A matter of fact,
if it wasn't for them, we would have gold, we
would have homes, and we would have everything we need
if but for these little niggas that are messing up?
Are these gangster rappers? All this sagging and all this
(20:54):
gangster rapping and all this wearing a grill selling dope,
these are the problems of our mean, why don't you
get a good job at the post office, driving ups
struck or something like this and be a family man
and take care of your family. That was the Bill
Clinton message that pushed through strikes crime bill. And what
that crime bill did, with the big support of the
(21:15):
Congressional Black Caucus has lit at that time by k. C. M. Fume.
What that crime bill did was, in addition to giving
this so called third strike and all these heavy duty
to a Colonian mandatory sentences, what it also did was
it said we're going to try children for certain crimes,
you know, like seven deadly since seven deadly crimes, So
(21:36):
if a child is charged with murder, assault, rape, arson,
child molesting, something, and the robbery, armed robbery. All of
these seven crimes they can be and probably will be
tried as adults. Now what does that mean. That means
that if you went to a juvenile court, I would
look at you. I'd be the judge. I'm your juvenile judge,
and I say, okay, well, let's see if this person.
(21:58):
What happened. This person in a bad neighborhood. They were influenced,
They got raped at home, so maybe that's why they
did this. You know what I mean? And I would
consider the elements of what you did, but I would
not be putting you in prison for life under any circumstances.
And I would certainly not be putting you in prison
for life. With adults, you can go to a juvenile
facility and you might do three years, and then we
(22:20):
could rehabilitate you, because we know the children act not
only impulsively, but they have no sense of consequence. A
thirteen year old boy, even if he had killed this man,
which he did not, one of the dope boys, and
they ended up all agreeing to let him take the wrap.
And he was so used to taking the dope when
the police the feudal times, the police would allegedly come by.
(22:40):
They just handed off to little just give it a
little b you know. He and he was so tough
because he had to be so in the juvenile court.
That would be what happens in an adult court. You're
gonna get a jewelry and we're gonna judge you according
to the crime, and you're gonna get the same time
and same situation as an adult would get. Nothing's going
(23:02):
to be considered about your juvenile history and who you
are and how to balance all of this. There's been
no understanding of rehabilitation that the child can't even have,
doesn't even have the brain development, much less anything else
to form intent for crime. Crime is harm that is done.
That's the fundamental definition of crime. Right under the law.
(23:22):
We know it's intent because you pull the trick. So
the point I'm making is, here's this boy who's the
first one in Fulton County to be tried as an adult,
and the Fulton County d A had just been elected
first black d A in the state of Georgia, who
decided he was gonna show black and white people that
(23:43):
he will do for master with Master won't do firm.
So I'm gonna lock these little niggas up. I'm gonna
tell you that right now. This is the first one
is gonna go down, and made a name for himself
as a prosecutor of young boys, mostly black. Of those
in Fulton, Chient that went down as adults, now you
could say, well, if if they were charged with murder,
people like you did big boy crime, you're gonna do
(24:03):
big boy time. That was a slogan that Pete Wilson,
the former governor of California, came up with. He was
a big advocate of charging these little black boy because
nobody thought of white boys as criminals. Crime in America
has a color. It's black. We have no mental health discussional,
no a little big he's a superpenditor, and we don't
want him in life. We don't want him in our lives.
(24:24):
We just want to put him away. So at that
same time, Michael was being demonized every day for a
month in the Atlanta Journal Constitution and the black journalists
were the main ones demonizing. It was nowhere for him
to go once the trial starts. So I got involved
because I was crying, how can our people do this
(24:45):
to this boy. He hasn't even been tried. You've you've
convicted him of everything, and the woman had a miscarriage,
so because she claims she was traumatized. The whole story
was so fake it was pathetic. And so now he's
put on trial. You've got at least seven blacks on
the jury. You've got a black d A a d
A assistant district attorney argue in the case. You've got
(25:07):
four dope boys on coming understand saying well, yeah, I
saw a little b DD. You've got two crackheads coming understand,
both of whom are high understand. Oh, don't let that Bobby.
And they created this fiction that Michael went up to
the car and said cut your lights to the to
the husband. Now we don't realize at the beginning that
the husband is actually in the passenger seat. And according
(25:31):
to the fiction that they created, although there was no
one actually testifying to this, the guy goes, no, I'm
not doing nothing, you tell me whatever, smart remark, and
then Michael goes off, goes around the corner and comes
back with a big long gun. The gun was three
ft five inches, Michael were four ft eleven I don't
know high fired deck gun. But okay, let's not get
let's not let the science or facts get in our way. Okay.
(25:53):
And fires blash through the window windows, now close the windows.
Uh uh and the and the window is tinted and
it's night and you get the main witness big when
the main dope boys had just been arrested in November.
That killing was in January for a possession to sell
hits of heroin. Now you're facing forty years to life
(26:14):
in a federal penitentiary on that one. What what? What?
Hap went a little bit when Biggie testified against a
little bit He did six months in the state prison
and was released on probation for roles some some oddball
arrangement because he had already made an arrangement during the
time that between the time Michael was arrested. We know,
we pretty much know who did it, but it wasn't Michael,
(26:35):
but it doesn't matter at fourteen. By this time he
turned fourteen. He was convicted in November of ninety seven.
Murder occurred in January, convicted in November, and in December
he was in an adult prison. He was not even
five ft tall yet, and he didn't wave very much.
But because he was tough enough, I think it's the
only reason he was able to navigate the horror of
(26:59):
the prison system. What was the horror there? These little boys,
some of them thought they were halfway tough. You know,
they were on the street, yah the yah, the poor
black boys, and they thought they were tough. But they
hadn't run into the poor black guy who's now growing
up in prison doing quadruple life, pumping iron with one hand.
You know what I mean, that kind of thing, going
to rape you. I can tell you that right now,
(27:21):
he's not gonna get out and ain't gonna be no woman.
You're starting to look like Beyonce, Diana Ross or somebody
like that. You're a little boy, it's an easy target.
So many young boys were raped in that prison during
the time that Michael was there. The horror of the
flirst place where he went Alto, in a place called
Lee Aarondale State Prison, in a little town called Alto, Georgia,
(27:42):
all around surrounded about nothing but white trailer parks. I'll say, so,
I won't be I'll be somewhat politically correct. You ain't
going nowhere, and half the guards live around there, right
because that's how these little towns survived. They don't have
any money, but the prison is gonna bring them a
lot of money, bring them visitors, put a blue restaurant.
All that stuff happens right. People even move into the
(28:04):
area if their son is going to be there for
a while, but you never know how long they might
be there. But Michael was there almost four years, and
in those four years, what did he see from fourteen
to eighteen, I don't even know, because I don't think
he can speak about it even now because the conditions
are so unspeakable and barbaric, and it's only natural. It's
like if you put people in a sewer, we're going
(28:25):
to start behaving like sewer rats. It's not going to
be complicated, you know. So that's part of what the prison.
It's crowded, not overcrowded, its just crowded intrinsically. You don't
have any privacy. You're gonna do whatever the guards tell
you to do, and if they don't like it, they're
gonna tell you do stuff that you know you can't do.
Then you're gonna go to the home. My boys in
the hole. In those first couple of years, he was
in the hole like once every other month because he
(28:46):
was always gonna teleguard. Fuck you, nigga. You know that's
how it is. I'm not gonna take ship because you
gotta stand for something. That's the other part, right, But
louis going to the hole, and there was Michael reached
your point instead of packing up yourself, bitch, I'll see
you at the hole. So that's how you get. So
(29:06):
here's my boy. He's in a joint. I started seeing
him in the first month, I would say, like in January,
and I had written these articles. And after vibe, I
would say, a couple of months, he had adopted me.
He wrote me a letter and said, dear mom. So
suddenly I went from being his advocate as such to
his mother. And I've been his mother in his mind
(29:26):
because he can be proud. I give him a lot.
His books are always cool. But he had survived, and
that was the one thing I told him he had
to do. I don't know how you're gonna survive. I
don't know, but you're gonna have to figure it out.
And no one is coming to get you, and you
have nowhere to run. And he has he's done his part.
I haven't done my part. My part was to get
him out. I have done everything that I know how
(29:47):
to do, and I'm a bad bitch, and so I've
really worked hard for him for twenty four years. And
so the bottom line, though, is that he's still in prison.
He's been denied for all three times. And the black
A guy that prosecuted him, the d A, m self. Uh.
When Michael was convicted, he said he has to do
(30:07):
fourteen years on that. That was the mandatory sentence for
murder at that time, and it's now thirty years mandatory
minimum years. Can you believe that? Thirty thirty years minimum?
So he the d A said he when he finishes
fourteen years, I'll be at the cruel board to make
sure he does fourteen more. And he's now done twenty
(30:30):
four years. We certainly never imagined it. I thought he'd
be out. I'm like, I'm bad. I can go out
and find support. And nobody believes this story and people
think I'm some kind of idiot that he really did
kill this man. That's a shame of it. And so
he's been imprisoned more than half his life. Now he's
grown up in prison. He has never known a life here.
(30:50):
I don't even know how he's going to make it
out here. But I have everything ready. So we've presented
to the Thriller Board and we've shown I have housing
for him in in Oakland and in Atlanta. I've got
a job for him in Oakland in Atlanta. I've got
education for him in Oakland and Atlanta. I've got mental
health care, so they know that we're going to think
about that in Oaken in Atlanta. And he hasn't had
(31:12):
any write ups or anything. He spent six years, six
years in total isolation for accusation of being a gang leader.
And one of those years he was in such total
isolation twenty four hours locked out. Now, normally, or according
to most rules, everybody is entitled to one hour outside,
(31:32):
but it beats being in the cell all day long.
He spent one year without that, even though it was
totally illegal, Not that that would matter, because illegal is
not relevant here. The whole thing is is im moral
much as it's illegal. And he spent one year where
he did had no books. They took away his books,
his paper, no radio, no visits, no telephone calls, nothing.
(31:54):
Can you imagine twenty four hour lockdown? I don't know
how he survived it. I honestly don't know, and I
told himout siderous hero, I don't know how he did it,
and I just weep, but I can't weep. I had
to do something. It's not good enough. So that's that's
where we are now. And we think we have the
grounds for a new trial. But he did not have
(32:14):
a hearing on confidence, and everybody is supposed to have
a competency hearing to say whether or not you're confident
to stay in trial. And because he didn't have that,
and he was thirteen, and then we have like all
kinds of backup on what that would mean thirteen year old,
what they understand, what they've done with the psychology, all
of that that he should have had a competency. And
then there was the second issue we have is that
the the the Supreme Court of the United States UH,
(32:38):
in a case called Miller I want to say, stated
that um sentencing children to prison for life without parole
is a violation of the Eighth Amendment for against prun
unusual punishment. So that was like very big, But Michael
wasn't sentenced to life without parole, So we're trying to
(33:00):
argue that it's effectively is life with that for role
or should be applicable to his case because he's been
denied three times on the same ground, and that ground
is nature of the crime. But when's that going to change?
So you could be denying him until he's ninety years old,
So it's effectively life without for all um. And so
we're arguing that case, and then we're arguing that, you know,
(33:23):
there's newly discovered evidence of a witness. These people didn't
even come forward. I mean, the doggishness of the dope
dealers that that got up on the stand. All of
this is systemic, Like we decided, we made a political
decision to identify these young black boys as super predators.
Course just fake science saying that you know, uh, these
(33:44):
black boys who were criminals are getting younger and younger.
This was a guy named John Dejulio with a guy
named William Bennett, and they wrote it. They actually wrote
a paper called My Black Crime Problem and Yours, and
they invented this word super frederal and then Hillary Clinton,
with her trifling ask picked that up and popularized it
to the point where even today people refer to people
(34:07):
as super predators. So my boy, as I call him,
even though he is thirty seven years old about to
be thirty eight, has suffered the front of every single
element of the racism and capitalism and corruption and violence
of this entire country. He is literally, you know, the
prototype for everything that could go wrong. Your mother was
(34:29):
on crack, you know, crack had descended on the black
community thanks to the c I A, so forth and
so on. So every single piece of his life, probably
even in the womb, was would would have led us
to boy being left in prison for life. There was
no chance for him to escape some sentence like that.
(34:51):
And then he said to me, you know, I probably
did anyway if I want to, which is probably true.
It seems like nothing ever changes, you know. Um, we march,
we protest, you know, we burned stuff down, and what
do we get. We get a mural trending hashtag on Twitter.
(35:11):
No meaningful policies get implemented, and cops don't change their behavior.
So where do we go from here? In your opinion? Um,
as you say, we marched, we protest, We uh, we
become social media activists? What the hell is that? Back
in the day we called them armchair revolutionaries, um and worse.
(35:35):
But I'll just leave it at that um and we
do nothing in terms of real, real change. But there
you know, the question is what is real change? And
how can we make bring about real change? What does
that mean? And it's a long processes of four hundreds
of year old country. So we can't just like, oh,
I'm gonna click my click my fingers together when I
(35:56):
adjusted heels and hey to go away. And then any
times in a Black Panther Party, we used to say
revolution in our lifetime, revolution in our lifetime. Stokely Carmichael
then who became point to Ray Black Panthers, we all
said revolutionary because we really believe that now that we
knew what was wrong, we would fight and everything would
change and somehow it would change. But even though we
(36:18):
had an incorrect analysis, it probably motivated us to do
more then just sit around and do nothing. The example
of the Black Panther Party, I think it's relevant, not
because I'm promoting and being self promoting even but because
I think that the actions that we put into place
driven by revolutionary ideology. We were Marxist Leninists. We were
(36:40):
Marxist the Black Panther Party. Now nobody realizes that or
a lot of people don't They thought were some kind
of nationalists or some kind of you know, like anti
white whatever that is. We were not anti anything pro black.
We love, we said, as putting check OVERA true revolutionary
is guided by great feelings of love. So we love
black people. So we want to bring about black liberate
but we recognize that we have to create the conditions
(37:03):
for that to happen. So what did we do. We
did any number of things to organize our own people
and to begin to create the conditions, to educate people
so that we could create a mass of people that
would embrace revolutionary principles and ultimately bring about the revolution. Remember,
there was no blueprint. This is the most powerful country
in the world, not, in fact, the most powerful country
(37:24):
in the history of the world. It is indeed an empire.
It is not a country, and everything that's here in
the world is a subject of this empire, including China.
Bad as it is right, what the Chinese gonna do
if the Americans start talking really crazy? Nothing? So what
(37:45):
do we do is to say, is there a blueprint
for for for for revolution? Well there isn't. Well, I'm
gonna be in a march and some ship that is
gonna change. Really, let's live in the big real world
here now. It's so we can't say, well, let's just
go storm uh you know something, and take it over.
You're not gonna take over anything in a one moment event.
(38:09):
This is not gonna be an event. You're gonna have
to move and organize and it's a long haul. But
this was a long march in the first place. Going
back to the slaves who jumped overboard, who slipped, they
used to have in all the slave ships. They began
to build protections around the captain and everything else because
they might get their throats slip. These people weren't on
the boat just saying oki doki. Once they got to drill.
(38:32):
And after you see so many ships come and not
come back with your folks, you recognize what's getting ready
to happen to you. Right as a slave African with
all the so called castles, which I find incredible, which
the Europeans built because they weren't going into the bush
to pick up no good strong young men and women
who could bring them babies and bend their backs for
whatever they had to do. It's hard to talk about sometimes,
(38:56):
isn't it. Yeah, you've got a four years plus history
of America doing violent, murderous acts, brutal almost there's almost
no word that can explain the sins of America from
the beginning, from the beginning. Now, you can't just undo
(39:19):
that by saying, well, we're gonna march and we put
out some social media hashtags. You know you're kidding. So
the question is what do you do? Well, the first
thing we have to do is make a commitment to change.
You can't be casual about let me go home, but
you get my point. So we have to make a decision.
(39:40):
Is this action a valid action that it may lead
to organizing people or educating people, so it may be
worth something. In other words, you put some placards out there,
you put some social media posts out there, and you
get the attention of people that like the George Floyd thing.
Now that probably had a consciousness raising things. Now, what
(40:02):
do you do with that? We don't know that for
that one minute in the universe of time. We all
learned that the police can be brutal. So I'm working
on reopening the case of Oscar Grant who was murdered
here in Oakland by the bart police. Bart being Berry
rappit transit and there was a second cop who literally
(40:24):
beat Oscar up and cause have brain injury and everything else.
So we just got a copy, meaning the world of
the autops. Think about it for a minute. We just
got information that Perroni did this and this and the
other from a report that was done and was never published.
And it took a news organization to force that report
(40:48):
to be published. So that's a good action. In other words,
even the news group is getting information so that the
public can have it, so that we can become conscious.
All of these things are in port, but they can't
be done in isolation. That's why we had a newspaper
and Black Panther party, We had a school of our
We fed teeth, but we did we covered all of
(41:09):
these things because they have to work in concert. So
that's a part of what we can be doing is
really focusing. But we gotta you gotta put time into this,
and if you don't put time into it, then you
won't get anything. This is a solid structure. It is
not going to be disrupted. Joe Biden is not disrupted.
He just got rid of about a real, real nagging
(41:33):
painting the ass. But you've got to educate yourselves. If
you want to address this system, you can't look at
TV and think George Floyda is a problem. He's emblemagic
of the problem, and you have to know what the
problem is. So we have to study, we have to organize,
and we have to have the will and the commitment
to make change. So, Elaine, we're out of time, But
(41:55):
I just wanted to ask one last question. Absolutely, I'll
try to debriefing so I know that this is a
forever fight, and well it feels that way for certain Um,
I just want to know, how do you keep hope
and do you think that there are any people in
(42:17):
the right the proper positions to actually create permanent change. Well,
I'm always gonna be hopeful, because if I didn't have
hope and I've changed cynical, it will be the point
of anything, will be the point in my life. I
do believe because evidence supports what I believe, that human
(42:40):
beings lean towards being what we would call moral caring
about each other only because we don't have no goddamn choice.
And one of the things this pandemic is showing is
that most people really do want to do the right thing.
So I have hope because I see them. But as
(43:01):
the divide gets bigger, and it is getting bigger, ironic,
incredibly so that the top one per cent are so
goddamn rich, and the others, then you're gonna get the
people who skim off a little bit bit of cream,
and they're all right with that. But the majority of
people are getting poorer while the rich get richer, as
the old statement used to say. And I believe that
(43:23):
therefore the conditions can be ripe again to resurrect a
real movement. I don't know that they're right right now.
Right right now, people are angry. People are angry. They
don't have housing. That's a big one. They don't have,
you know, anything. They're angry about those two issues, housing
and police brutality. They don't know what to do. And
that's because there's no organization to make it real that
(43:47):
you can gom onto. That's why people still talk about
the Black Panther Party. Here we are. I'm already told
you Black Panther Party hasn't existed, and yet we're still
held up as a model for what we should do,
should do. You got all these ridiculous movies out. I
don't want to talk about them, uh and other stuff.
But the point is I have hope that what I've
(44:10):
committed my life too is meaningful, not because it's my life,
because at the end of the day, this was a ride.
It was it was a crapshoot the whole way. I
want to know that every day I put in work,
even at this stage, even if it doesn't even matter
that much, I put in that work because I believe
in what I'm saying, and so I have to have
hope that um change will come and that somewhere in
(44:34):
the universe. The other part is it's either gonna come
or there won't be any earth, so it doesn't really matter.
But it's can't go on like this because we have
the capacity to kill each other and wipe each other
out holy and completely. Environmental problems may kill us before
a bomb. So what is my hope. My hope is
(44:56):
that the people of the world, at some point that
I bit, will begin to see each other as human
beings on this planet, that we are part of the planet.
We don't even know what's out there yet, So I
believe that conditions will be right. And as my friend
Jamie Alamin Jamiel Abdulah al Amin, who used to be
a trapped brown when Snick was around, and very very
(45:19):
powerful speaker, very powerful organizer, committed to the struggle, still
in prison after twenty years. Now, as he said to me,
you know, sister, I know this that the pendulum will
swing our way again, because life is like that. Life
is not static, and when it does, you'll be ready.
So even if the conditions aren't there, you stay on
(45:40):
keeping on, keep keep on keeping on, and you will
find that'll be a new set of conditions. And if not,
then I gave it my best, and that I gave
it my owl, not my best, my old. I gave
everything I had. So if if I passed out of
this life before some new thing happens, or some bigger
change element occurs or conditions change, I'll be all right
(46:02):
with it. I'll be all right because I know that
life will continue itself. It either will continue itself or
we'll all perish, and that will be the end of
that amazing. Thank you so much, Elaine, Thank you for
all the work that you do, and thank you for
coming on. We really appreciate it, We really do. Thank
you so much. All right, young ladies and thank you
(46:22):
for having it. No happy okay okay yoah the law
(46:58):
about I'm ever so sappy. Repercussions beyond the Path Yeah uh.
Will Packer was acutive producer James Lopez, I wasacutive producer
behind Jack Levy, executive producer and director Let's Go Dominique,
(47:22):
Move Time, Yeah Now, creator and writer, producer Your Baby
You Need Hello, Hello, Whitney Fuller, creative executive Michael keith Berg,
co producer, Carrell Alexis, recording mixer, sound design, Ross Davis,
(47:44):
Audio Consultan, music supervisor Jeff Forster, music by Deaf, Jeff Boy,
Joe Wolf, Tony Homer, Score Mingers Hayes Ramsay Production assistant
Junior Ron Products and Assistance. You didn't main cats now
(48:07):
you did? I Yeah and the Alonza plays Blue lack
Elaine Brown playing as a Lane Brown, Jacksie Boyd as
Jennifer Come on, you did, Yeah, Robbie Jarvis Owen at
(48:34):
Ron Destiny plays Rebecta. You didn't, Yeah, seek Alton additional voices.
You didn't shouts out, so it was missing town Benny's
baby you know for real though, somebody podcast stage Yeah,
(49:00):
Just being a wild packer of media production I heart
production and I am that boy Drew rap. You want
to know me? No phony in Macro run Let's go.
That's an additional voice. Yeah, I want to know more
(49:20):
about
Someone had told me a month ago I'd end up
in a jail cell after my best friend pulled a
gun on me and admitted she had caused my sister's eyes.
I would have left my ass off. It would have
been too crazy even for fiction. But now that I'm
currently living that exact reality, there's not one amazing thing
about it. Owen said it best. There is a sad
(00:26):
kind of irony about me being on the other side
of the law. Trespassing is a misdemeanor at the very least,
felony at the worst. I'll be lucky if I ever
passed another security clearance. What was I thinking? In my mind?
I keep rewinding that last scene of the train station,
Poppins picking up the gun and pointing it at Officer Corey,
(00:46):
who then shot him first. The bullet went right through
his shoulder, but Poppins cried and screamed so much I
thought he was dying. Eventually, Corey's backup arrived and a
paramedic came to pick up Poppins. All three of us
were arrest did. The weirdest part was the fact that
nobody could find the gun. Poppins have pointed out, He's
(01:16):
gonna have y'all take no step back, lad it's her,
my so called friend. They took her out of the
cell hours ago, and now she's back. How can she
keep that smug look on her face when it's so
clear we're all unbelievably screwed? Are you still going to
ignore me? Even in this tiny cell? We have nothing
(01:36):
to talk about? Flappings is okay? In case you were wondering,
that's supposed to be funny. He's an idiot who almost
got us all killed. I hate to tell you this,
but you did not mask the test good. Your little
anarchy club sucks. Maybe you should keep your voice down
you see any of these zombies here are listening? When
did you become like this? Like what? You're like a
(01:57):
cross between an h O, a manager in a library,
and hard to believe you and Savenna are even related.
Don't talk about Savanna after what you did. Savennah was
not some helpless victim to be manipulated. She was a
grown ass woman with strong reliefs. Give her some credit.
At least she tried to use her lights gat privilege
for good, not evil. Sure, make it about colorism now,
(02:19):
So when did you become like this? Me? I've been
the same from day one. Baby, Oh you've changed. You
used to be just a normal, opinionated afrocentric say it loud,
I'm black and I'm proud Berkeley grab and now you're
like the ringleader of random white people do a fucked
up ship? You please stop talking so about it down.
How do you even have the nerve to say something
(02:39):
so stupid? You really have no clue how funked up
the institutions you take for granted her, as if wearing
a shiny badge makes you immune from being capable of
outright terrorism. This isn't just about ally SHIP or BLM
or forcing the masses to recognize white privilege, not anymore so.
To answer your stupid question, let me ask you a question.
(03:02):
Al right, go, when you were in the FBI, assuming
you're no longer in the FBI, did they tell you
how many black people could congregate together before they were
considered a domestic threat? Oh? Come on, I'm serious? Was
it five forty? With that logic, the FBI would consider
every black church a terrorist organization. Fair point, But let's
(03:24):
face it, turning the other cheek isn't really conducive to
the pursuit of justice. So what's your point that the
FBI is a racist organization. It's a little more settled
than that, and you know it. The FBI is a
fear based organization, fear of black retribution. So it's safer
for me to identify as an anarchist than a black nationalist.
I'm less likely to be investigated by your people. When
(03:45):
I surround myself with various types of people. It confuses
them when they can't categorize a person based on their race.
Agents at the FBI follow their noses. There's no conspiracy
or bias based on race. White supremacist groups received the
same treatment January six. If I didn't know what a
conniving bit you are, you're naivete would almost be cute.
(04:08):
And if I didn't know what a budding baby terrace
you are, I'd say you're anger would almost be just
Ay was a white supremacist. If stopping these people was
a priority, how is it that he's been able to
infiltrate a major police department in an urban city. You
can't stop every single bad guy out the information we
have on him, it's not hard to find. We found
out pretty easily, and we're not professionals. With training in
(04:28):
background checks. Not hard to trace someone social media is,
so she is in background. It's not fair. I get it.
The system isn't perfect, right, that's the problem. We give
these institutions the benefit of the doubt, Yet we don't
extend the same courtesy to our imperfect citizens, who are
the products of the imperfect system. Yes, come on, what
(04:56):
but let's go. Go on. By the way, you're well,
you know, if your current gig doesn't work out, you
ought to see if there's an opening a quantico. I'll
take that as a compliment, just this once. Needless to say,
my days of freelance leading are over. I don't know
(05:18):
how Rebecca managed to pull this off, but I am
so over these surprises. Is she taking the fall? What
about Owen? All right, here are your belongings. I need
you to sign these forms and you're out. I'm not
(05:41):
being charged with anything, not that I know of. What
about the cop who arrested us? Look, you're not being charged.
How about you? Let that be enough? Sign here? Grandma?
What are you doing here? What do you think I'm
doing here? Girl? Let's go. I have no desire to
stand around here. My grandmother is the last person I
(06:05):
want to see right now, after everything she's been through
with Savannah, she shouldn't have to worry about me too, Hey,
stay out of trouble on his hands now, there wasn't
anything close by. I parked a couple of blocks away.
(06:28):
It took me twenty minutes to find a spot. Downtown
Elk isn't what it used to be. Sorry, Yeah, you
must be. I'd be sorry too if I were you,
really sorry, I had no idea. First you come home
with a dentist car, and now I'm picking you up
from the police station. Are you spoken weed again, Rebecca?
She's no, No, you don't. I don't even think about
(06:50):
bringing Rebecca into this. You look, you are not fourteen,
and you can't excuse yourself by blaming your friends. But
you don't understand she's the reason Savannah is that He
that maybe the Savannah bears the ultimate responsibility for her
own actions, just like you do. This is more than
just Savannah. Rebecca is involved in some deep, crazy stuff
like what well, I'm not exactly sure, but it involves
(07:14):
the police and the fires and Antifa or anarchy. They're
very vague about what it is they do. Rebecca is
paying the bill for in home care. She raised the
money for your sister. That doesn't sound like anarchy to me.
That's true, and I'm starting to suspect she might be
a sociopath. I don't know why you think this is
a joke. You're missing with your future here. No one
(07:36):
is taking this more seriously than I am. Graham. This
isn't what I expected to happen when I came back here.
You're not helping me or yourself by staying in Oakland,
certainly not helping Savannah. I think you should go back
to the academy Grant. I can't. It doesn't work that way.
They'll understand. Just explain everything to them. No, well, you
(07:58):
can't stay here. It's a bad influence on and these
days the only people who stay in old learned people
who aren't really from here, are people who are trapped here. Correctly,
Grandma's family is Louisiana Creo, and she's always carried superstitious
notions with her growing up. It should be crazy because
she was usually right. I guess I'm stuck here that
(08:21):
so you're content to be the shadow little ghost? Is
that what you think of Savannah? A ghost? She's not
coming back Bulla. People wake out of comas all the time. Sure,
it's rare, but I think it could be possible. It's not.
Statistically speaking, it isn't possible. Since when do you care
about statistics? What about faith? Bullah, It's common sense. Savannah
(08:46):
asked me not to tell anyone, but Grandma should know.
She deserves to know. She did. She did wake up.
It's impossible. It was only for a little while. She
came to and she told me everything. I have no
doubt that you spoke to her, But she did not
tell you anything. She did. No, No, I heard you
(09:08):
that day in her room, Bulah. Wasn't nobody in there
talking about you? What Grandma? She told me how Rebecca
was behind everything. Maybe you wanted to believe it so
bad that I don't know you hallucinated. I'm not crazy.
I didn't say that. Sometimes even I think I can
hear her. But we've got to be realistic. Since when
(09:31):
has anyone accused me of being unrealistic? Please go live
your life. You've been here less than three weeks and
you're already in trouble. I have this awful feeling that
if you say something bad is going to happen to you.
I just can't lose you both. Not like this, Fine,
(09:52):
I'll think about it. Maybe I can make some calls
to see if they'll take me in next year's class. Honestly,
I don't mind being back in Oakland, despite the drama
with Rebecca. I know grand things to step down, but
being close to Savannah is the only thing that feels
right at this point in my life. But deep down
(10:13):
I also know she's right. Being here as an adult
has been an out of body experience. If you look
get in the car, what are you looking at? Sorry?
Just deep in thought. You ever listened to Rebecca show? No,
(10:37):
not my thing I do. From time to time Sometimes
Savannah would go on and I tune in a lot
of the stuff they talked about I didn't understand. In retrospect,
I think I probably should have asked more questions, listened
a little closer. Anyway. I say this because I feel
if you took a listen to one episode in particular,
(10:58):
maybe you'd understand your sister a little better and you'd
see that her actions were truly her own. No one,
not even Rebecca, had to convince her to be who
she was. I don't have the energy to extend any
compassion to Rebecca. I really don't. The healing process starts
with you accept in reality and forgiving yourself. That has
(11:18):
nothing to do with Rebecca. Whatever you say, Grandma m hello,
how you twe you? We get that gun unless we
(11:39):
do something about that cadre of young people, tens of
thousands of them born out of wedlock, without parents, without supervision,
without any structure, without any conscience developing, because they literally
have not been socialized. They literally have not had an opportunity.
(12:03):
We should focus on them now, not out of a
liberal instinct for love, brother and humanity, although I think
that's a good instinct, but for simple pragmatic reasons. If
we don't, they will, or a portion of them, will
become the predators fifteen years from now. And we have
(12:26):
predators on our streets that society has, in fact, in
part because of us neglect created Again, It does not
mean because we created them that we somehow forgive them
or do not take them out of society to protect
my family and yours from them. They are beyond the pale,
many of those people beyond the pale, and it's a
(12:50):
sad commentary on society. We have no choice but to
take them out of society. Liberation Radio presents a conversation
with former Black Panther leader, activist and author of the
Condemnation of Little By Elaine Brown, hosted by Rebecca and Savanna. Now,
(13:14):
who's coming up? It's me again with someone and you're
related to the FBI. FBI woman wants to be in
the FBI. Rebecca and Savannah Now, so welcome Elaine again.
Thank you so much for coming on our show and
(13:35):
speaking with us. We really appreciate it, of course. Um. Yes,
we often hear horror stories about incarcerated black men and
women who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes they didn't commit.
Michael lewis Ak Little b was just thirteen years old
when he was in prison for a murder he didn't do.
(13:55):
Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that
story and how someone like Michael fell through the cracks
of the system. Right, Well, and I thank you for
that question. But let's first of all, not pretend that
the system has a safety net for anybody, especially any
black boys. So he didn't fall through any cracks. It
was a hole waiting for him to just walk over it,
and it was the entire Black community of Atlanta, and
(14:19):
don't want to just give a quick background. So when
Michael was eight, as he told me as I came
to know him, his house had become the crack house.
That's what do you mean? And he said, you know
everybody was in there smoking crack, including his mother. And
as he said later on, my mother smoked up the water,
smoked up the water, meaning the water got turned off
where she needed to put that money in that pipe? Right?
(14:41):
So no, not no, not no hot water, no water.
So at eight years old, he was the guardian of
himself and his five year old sister and they would
have to go to school to get food, and so
he would get her dress, comb or hair whatever. I said.
We were there a lot of people. I mean, it
was a crack how what do you mean? No, when
(15:01):
that made people? It was just this how I talked,
it's probably I said, well, how many people? Is not
that make people? No more than about twelve twelve people
are sleeping in the place where you live, that are
all smoking crack while you're a little kid at eight
years old, How did you want? I know how to
watch my own clothes. I used to go up to
the bank head and go take it, get the buggy
and go up to bank head and I get well,
how did you get money? Well, I got it from
my older brothers. And then he just sell a little
(15:23):
dope for them or whatever eight or you know, run
a package somewhere. You understand what I mean, because that
was a very very hope, very big dope area. There
was a movie, a document really you could call it
a documentary called Snow in the Bluffs. It said Bluffs,
but it was called the Bluff note f And that
was one of the heaviest drug areas of Atlanta. And
really it was in the pipeline coming up from Miami,
(15:46):
uh and as just a drug center. It was just unbelievable.
And so as he got older, um the court he
went to court several times through the school he went
to court because in the in the under the Georgia law,
do you've nile child that is being uh mistreated or something,
you don't go take the mother or the parent to
court for violation. You take the child to juvenile court
(16:09):
to say whether or not the child has deprived. So
he was given deprivation hearings every several times, and ultimately
the state removed him from the home, as if there
were a home, and he went into forster care and
it was very bad, so he ran away. They captured
they captured him, as he thought of it, meaning the
foster care defacts Department of Family and Children's Services. Uh.
(16:30):
They took him. Then they arranged to get him into
another force to home a woman and her husband that
his mother knew. So you already noticed some danger in that. Uh.
And he not only did the man beat him, as
he said, with his fists, and he was ten at
this time, but the woman, the mother, molested him at
ten years old. Now, at that point he ran away
(16:54):
from everything to what he knew, which was his brother
dealing dope on the streets of the bluff. So he
started dealing dope to survive. Not imagine yourself trying to
survive it eleven years old on the street. One of
the place he slept was so he said, I could
always find someplace to sleep. I was never homeless. No
homeless says, you don't have a home. It's not in
an encampment. You just don't have anywhere to live. You're
(17:15):
sleeping on somebody's couch, you're sleeping in a garage. You
don't have a key to a place where you put
your things up, you know, and you have a little
meal you can cook them. You were homeless, and one
of the places where he slept was in the elevator
of what would be the or Martyr Station in Atlanta Martya,
you know, Metropolitan Atlanta Transit so forth, rapid transit. So
(17:37):
he would lock the elevator in between floors. After after that,
you know, train stopped running and sleep there because it
was safe to be there. And you are twelve and
at thirteen, um, some guy was killed in front of
this store in the heart of the bluff, a store
that nobody would have gone to. First of all, you
(17:59):
would have never found it, but you definitely wouldn't have
any reason to go into it because it was one
of those stores. It was a crean that owned it,
but all outside dope being sold here. Because in the
bluff you could buy everything from crack, cocaine, powder, cocaine, ecstasy, weed, uh,
you name it, just depending on what you need. They
had enough people out there selling and it was so
(18:20):
open that you didn't you don't have to ask you
a question. So everybody from the Atlanta University Center, like
spelling more house, uh um and uh whatever the other
ones are that I can't suddy think of all those
college kids would go over to the bluff because it
was very close and get some weed, get some code.
It was open that nothing's gonna happen to you in
the bluff if you're buying. Everybody wants you to be happy.
(18:43):
White boys coming down from Buckhead, white college students at
Georgia Tech. Everybody knew you could roll through the bluff
and get some goddamn dope. And there wasn't anything that
you couldn't get if you had some new stuff that
they hadn't heard up, like when ecstasy came out. They're
gonna comma date your need. They were selling like you
can't believe. And the only other people that were out
(19:04):
on the streets of the bluff with the crackheads. So
at some point this man and woman roll up to
this little store that you know can't be selling anything
at all, you know, maybe fake care in the package,
maybe some some old milk, just nothing. And the wife
says she gets out of the car and go get
the soda and comes back, doesn't have enough money and
(19:25):
goes back to pay for the soda. Here's gunshot and
the husband has been shot through the window. He's in
the passenger seat and blasted through the window and kill.
Now that's the story they tell, that little bit, the
thirteen year old boy who was not even five ft
tall at the time, because a lot of these children
that are born in these neighborhoods, they were really malnourished,
(19:46):
like like t I, they're all little believe or not.
It's a really strange I mean, this is my observation.
This has not been a scientific for my observation. Anyway,
he gets charged with the murder, and it's not like
he got charged. It was a week later and they
had a big picture of him on the front page.
And wait, I thought you didn't show with juvenile spaces
what happened to that part? And they said this thug
(20:09):
in quotes because you can use yellow journalism when you quote,
when you words, it's not me, you think he's ad
the pardon me, it's I'm quoting Lieutenant Hooby Boom. Right. Uh,
this thug's charged with what you barely see, the charge
with murdering a good black father. So now we have
the set up on the black community and the setup
(20:30):
is there's this bad black this super predator is Hillary
Clinton popularized it. Um, these bad boys, I'm messing up
our community. We would be free. A matter of fact,
if it wasn't for them, we would have gold, we
would have homes, and we would have everything we need
if but for these little niggas that are messing up?
Are these gangster rappers? All this sagging and all this
(20:54):
gangster rapping and all this wearing a grill selling dope,
these are the problems of our mean, why don't you
get a good job at the post office, driving ups
struck or something like this and be a family man
and take care of your family. That was the Bill
Clinton message that pushed through strikes crime bill. And what
that crime bill did, with the big support of the
(21:15):
Congressional Black Caucus has lit at that time by k. C. M. Fume.
What that crime bill did was, in addition to giving
this so called third strike and all these heavy duty
to a Colonian mandatory sentences, what it also did was
it said we're going to try children for certain crimes,
you know, like seven deadly since seven deadly crimes, So
(21:36):
if a child is charged with murder, assault, rape, arson,
child molesting, something, and the robbery, armed robbery. All of
these seven crimes they can be and probably will be
tried as adults. Now what does that mean. That means
that if you went to a juvenile court, I would
look at you. I'd be the judge. I'm your juvenile judge,
and I say, okay, well, let's see if this person.
(21:58):
What happened. This person in a bad neighborhood. They were influenced,
They got raped at home, so maybe that's why they
did this. You know what I mean? And I would
consider the elements of what you did, but I would
not be putting you in prison for life under any circumstances.
And I would certainly not be putting you in prison
for life. With adults, you can go to a juvenile
facility and you might do three years, and then we
(22:20):
could rehabilitate you, because we know the children act not
only impulsively, but they have no sense of consequence. A
thirteen year old boy, even if he had killed this man,
which he did not, one of the dope boys, and
they ended up all agreeing to let him take the wrap.
And he was so used to taking the dope when
the police the feudal times, the police would allegedly come by.
(22:40):
They just handed off to little just give it a
little b you know. He and he was so tough
because he had to be so in the juvenile court.
That would be what happens in an adult court. You're
gonna get a jewelry and we're gonna judge you according
to the crime, and you're gonna get the same time
and same situation as an adult would get. Nothing's going
(23:02):
to be considered about your juvenile history and who you
are and how to balance all of this. There's been
no understanding of rehabilitation that the child can't even have,
doesn't even have the brain development, much less anything else
to form intent for crime. Crime is harm that is done.
That's the fundamental definition of crime. Right under the law.
(23:22):
We know it's intent because you pull the trick. So
the point I'm making is, here's this boy who's the
first one in Fulton County to be tried as an adult,
and the Fulton County d A had just been elected
first black d A in the state of Georgia, who
decided he was gonna show black and white people that
(23:43):
he will do for master with Master won't do firm.
So I'm gonna lock these little niggas up. I'm gonna
tell you that right now. This is the first one
is gonna go down, and made a name for himself
as a prosecutor of young boys, mostly black. Of those
in Fulton, Chient that went down as adults, now you
could say, well, if if they were charged with murder,
people like you did big boy crime, you're gonna do
(24:03):
big boy time. That was a slogan that Pete Wilson,
the former governor of California, came up with. He was
a big advocate of charging these little black boy because
nobody thought of white boys as criminals. Crime in America
has a color. It's black. We have no mental health discussional,
no a little big he's a superpenditor, and we don't
want him in life. We don't want him in our lives.
(24:24):
We just want to put him away. So at that
same time, Michael was being demonized every day for a
month in the Atlanta Journal Constitution and the black journalists
were the main ones demonizing. It was nowhere for him
to go once the trial starts. So I got involved
because I was crying, how can our people do this
(24:45):
to this boy. He hasn't even been tried. You've you've
convicted him of everything, and the woman had a miscarriage,
so because she claims she was traumatized. The whole story
was so fake it was pathetic. And so now he's
put on trial. You've got at least seven blacks on
the jury. You've got a black d A a d
A assistant district attorney argue in the case. You've got
(25:07):
four dope boys on coming understand saying well, yeah, I
saw a little b DD. You've got two crackheads coming understand,
both of whom are high understand. Oh, don't let that Bobby.
And they created this fiction that Michael went up to
the car and said cut your lights to the to
the husband. Now we don't realize at the beginning that
the husband is actually in the passenger seat. And according
(25:31):
to the fiction that they created, although there was no
one actually testifying to this, the guy goes, no, I'm
not doing nothing, you tell me whatever, smart remark, and
then Michael goes off, goes around the corner and comes
back with a big long gun. The gun was three
ft five inches, Michael were four ft eleven I don't
know high fired deck gun. But okay, let's not get
let's not let the science or facts get in our way. Okay.
(25:53):
And fires blash through the window windows, now close the windows.
Uh uh and the and the window is tinted and
it's night and you get the main witness big when
the main dope boys had just been arrested in November.
That killing was in January for a possession to sell
hits of heroin. Now you're facing forty years to life
(26:14):
in a federal penitentiary on that one. What what? What?
Hap went a little bit when Biggie testified against a
little bit He did six months in the state prison
and was released on probation for roles some some oddball
arrangement because he had already made an arrangement during the
time that between the time Michael was arrested. We know,
we pretty much know who did it, but it wasn't Michael,
(26:35):
but it doesn't matter at fourteen. By this time he
turned fourteen. He was convicted in November of ninety seven.
Murder occurred in January, convicted in November, and in December
he was in an adult prison. He was not even
five ft tall yet, and he didn't wave very much.
But because he was tough enough, I think it's the
only reason he was able to navigate the horror of
(26:59):
the prison system. What was the horror there? These little boys,
some of them thought they were halfway tough. You know,
they were on the street, yah the yah, the poor
black boys, and they thought they were tough. But they
hadn't run into the poor black guy who's now growing
up in prison doing quadruple life, pumping iron with one hand.
You know what I mean, that kind of thing, going
to rape you. I can tell you that right now,
(27:21):
he's not gonna get out and ain't gonna be no woman.
You're starting to look like Beyonce, Diana Ross or somebody
like that. You're a little boy, it's an easy target.
So many young boys were raped in that prison during
the time that Michael was there. The horror of the
flirst place where he went Alto, in a place called
Lee Aarondale State Prison, in a little town called Alto, Georgia,
(27:42):
all around surrounded about nothing but white trailer parks. I'll say, so,
I won't be I'll be somewhat politically correct. You ain't
going nowhere, and half the guards live around there, right
because that's how these little towns survived. They don't have
any money, but the prison is gonna bring them a
lot of money, bring them visitors, put a blue restaurant.
All that stuff happens right. People even move into the
(28:04):
area if their son is going to be there for
a while, but you never know how long they might
be there. But Michael was there almost four years, and
in those four years, what did he see from fourteen
to eighteen, I don't even know, because I don't think
he can speak about it even now because the conditions
are so unspeakable and barbaric, and it's only natural. It's
like if you put people in a sewer, we're going
(28:25):
to start behaving like sewer rats. It's not going to
be complicated, you know. So that's part of what the prison.
It's crowded, not overcrowded, its just crowded intrinsically. You don't
have any privacy. You're gonna do whatever the guards tell
you to do, and if they don't like it, they're
gonna tell you do stuff that you know you can't do.
Then you're gonna go to the home. My boys in
the hole. In those first couple of years, he was
in the hole like once every other month because he
(28:46):
was always gonna teleguard. Fuck you, nigga. You know that's
how it is. I'm not gonna take ship because you
gotta stand for something. That's the other part, right, But
louis going to the hole, and there was Michael reached
your point instead of packing up yourself, bitch, I'll see
you at the hole. So that's how you get. So
(29:06):
here's my boy. He's in a joint. I started seeing
him in the first month, I would say, like in January,
and I had written these articles. And after vibe, I
would say, a couple of months, he had adopted me.
He wrote me a letter and said, dear mom. So
suddenly I went from being his advocate as such to
his mother. And I've been his mother in his mind
(29:26):
because he can be proud. I give him a lot.
His books are always cool. But he had survived, and
that was the one thing I told him he had
to do. I don't know how you're gonna survive. I
don't know, but you're gonna have to figure it out.
And no one is coming to get you, and you
have nowhere to run. And he has he's done his part.
I haven't done my part. My part was to get
him out. I have done everything that I know how
(29:47):
to do, and I'm a bad bitch, and so I've
really worked hard for him for twenty four years. And
so the bottom line, though, is that he's still in prison.
He's been denied for all three times. And the black
A guy that prosecuted him, the d A, m self. Uh.
When Michael was convicted, he said he has to do
(30:07):
fourteen years on that. That was the mandatory sentence for
murder at that time, and it's now thirty years mandatory
minimum years. Can you believe that? Thirty thirty years minimum?
So he the d A said he when he finishes
fourteen years, I'll be at the cruel board to make
sure he does fourteen more. And he's now done twenty
(30:30):
four years. We certainly never imagined it. I thought he'd
be out. I'm like, I'm bad. I can go out
and find support. And nobody believes this story and people
think I'm some kind of idiot that he really did
kill this man. That's a shame of it. And so
he's been imprisoned more than half his life. Now he's
grown up in prison. He has never known a life here.
(30:50):
I don't even know how he's going to make it
out here. But I have everything ready. So we've presented
to the Thriller Board and we've shown I have housing
for him in in Oakland and in Atlanta. I've got
a job for him in Oakland in Atlanta. I've got
education for him in Oakland and Atlanta. I've got mental
health care, so they know that we're going to think
about that in Oaken in Atlanta. And he hasn't had
(31:12):
any write ups or anything. He spent six years, six
years in total isolation for accusation of being a gang leader.
And one of those years he was in such total
isolation twenty four hours locked out. Now, normally, or according
to most rules, everybody is entitled to one hour outside,
(31:32):
but it beats being in the cell all day long.
He spent one year without that, even though it was
totally illegal, Not that that would matter, because illegal is
not relevant here. The whole thing is is im moral
much as it's illegal. And he spent one year where
he did had no books. They took away his books,
his paper, no radio, no visits, no telephone calls, nothing.
(31:54):
Can you imagine twenty four hour lockdown? I don't know
how he survived it. I honestly don't know, and I
told himout siderous hero, I don't know how he did it,
and I just weep, but I can't weep. I had
to do something. It's not good enough. So that's that's
where we are now. And we think we have the
grounds for a new trial. But he did not have
(32:14):
a hearing on confidence, and everybody is supposed to have
a competency hearing to say whether or not you're confident
to stay in trial. And because he didn't have that,
and he was thirteen, and then we have like all
kinds of backup on what that would mean thirteen year old,
what they understand, what they've done with the psychology, all
of that that he should have had a competency. And
then there was the second issue we have is that
the the the Supreme Court of the United States UH,
(32:38):
in a case called Miller I want to say, stated
that um sentencing children to prison for life without parole
is a violation of the Eighth Amendment for against prun
unusual punishment. So that was like very big, But Michael
wasn't sentenced to life without parole, So we're trying to
(33:00):
argue that it's effectively is life with that for role
or should be applicable to his case because he's been
denied three times on the same ground, and that ground
is nature of the crime. But when's that going to change?
So you could be denying him until he's ninety years old,
So it's effectively life without for all um. And so
we're arguing that case, and then we're arguing that, you know,
(33:23):
there's newly discovered evidence of a witness. These people didn't
even come forward. I mean, the doggishness of the dope
dealers that that got up on the stand. All of
this is systemic, Like we decided, we made a political
decision to identify these young black boys as super predators.
Course just fake science saying that you know, uh, these
(33:44):
black boys who were criminals are getting younger and younger.
This was a guy named John Dejulio with a guy
named William Bennett, and they wrote it. They actually wrote
a paper called My Black Crime Problem and Yours, and
they invented this word super frederal and then Hillary Clinton,
with her trifling ask picked that up and popularized it
to the point where even today people refer to people
(34:07):
as super predators. So my boy, as I call him,
even though he is thirty seven years old about to
be thirty eight, has suffered the front of every single
element of the racism and capitalism and corruption and violence
of this entire country. He is literally, you know, the
prototype for everything that could go wrong. Your mother was
(34:29):
on crack, you know, crack had descended on the black
community thanks to the c I A, so forth and
so on. So every single piece of his life, probably
even in the womb, was would would have led us
to boy being left in prison for life. There was
no chance for him to escape some sentence like that.
(34:51):
And then he said to me, you know, I probably
did anyway if I want to, which is probably true.
It seems like nothing ever changes, you know. Um, we march,
we protest, you know, we burned stuff down, and what
do we get. We get a mural trending hashtag on Twitter.
(35:11):
No meaningful policies get implemented, and cops don't change their behavior.
So where do we go from here? In your opinion? Um,
as you say, we marched, we protest, We uh, we
become social media activists? What the hell is that? Back
in the day we called them armchair revolutionaries, um and worse.
(35:35):
But I'll just leave it at that um and we
do nothing in terms of real, real change. But there
you know, the question is what is real change? And
how can we make bring about real change? What does
that mean? And it's a long processes of four hundreds
of year old country. So we can't just like, oh,
I'm gonna click my click my fingers together when I
(35:56):
adjusted heels and hey to go away. And then any
times in a Black Panther Party, we used to say
revolution in our lifetime, revolution in our lifetime. Stokely Carmichael
then who became point to Ray Black Panthers, we all
said revolutionary because we really believe that now that we
knew what was wrong, we would fight and everything would
change and somehow it would change. But even though we
(36:18):
had an incorrect analysis, it probably motivated us to do
more then just sit around and do nothing. The example
of the Black Panther Party, I think it's relevant, not
because I'm promoting and being self promoting even but because
I think that the actions that we put into place
driven by revolutionary ideology. We were Marxist Leninists. We were
(36:40):
Marxist the Black Panther Party. Now nobody realizes that or
a lot of people don't They thought were some kind
of nationalists or some kind of you know, like anti
white whatever that is. We were not anti anything pro black.
We love, we said, as putting check OVERA true revolutionary
is guided by great feelings of love. So we love
black people. So we want to bring about black liberate
but we recognize that we have to create the conditions
(37:03):
for that to happen. So what did we do. We
did any number of things to organize our own people
and to begin to create the conditions, to educate people
so that we could create a mass of people that
would embrace revolutionary principles and ultimately bring about the revolution. Remember,
there was no blueprint. This is the most powerful country
in the world, not, in fact, the most powerful country
(37:24):
in the history of the world. It is indeed an empire.
It is not a country, and everything that's here in
the world is a subject of this empire, including China.
Bad as it is right, what the Chinese gonna do
if the Americans start talking really crazy? Nothing? So what
(37:45):
do we do is to say, is there a blueprint
for for for for revolution? Well there isn't. Well, I'm
gonna be in a march and some ship that is
gonna change. Really, let's live in the big real world
here now. It's so we can't say, well, let's just
go storm uh you know something, and take it over.
You're not gonna take over anything in a one moment event.
(38:09):
This is not gonna be an event. You're gonna have
to move and organize and it's a long haul. But
this was a long march in the first place. Going
back to the slaves who jumped overboard, who slipped, they
used to have in all the slave ships. They began
to build protections around the captain and everything else because
they might get their throats slip. These people weren't on
the boat just saying oki doki. Once they got to drill.
(38:32):
And after you see so many ships come and not
come back with your folks, you recognize what's getting ready
to happen to you. Right as a slave African with
all the so called castles, which I find incredible, which
the Europeans built because they weren't going into the bush
to pick up no good strong young men and women
who could bring them babies and bend their backs for
whatever they had to do. It's hard to talk about sometimes,
(38:56):
isn't it. Yeah, you've got a four years plus history
of America doing violent, murderous acts, brutal almost there's almost
no word that can explain the sins of America from
the beginning, from the beginning. Now, you can't just undo
(39:19):
that by saying, well, we're gonna march and we put
out some social media hashtags. You know you're kidding. So
the question is what do you do? Well, the first
thing we have to do is make a commitment to change.
You can't be casual about let me go home, but
you get my point. So we have to make a decision.
(39:40):
Is this action a valid action that it may lead
to organizing people or educating people, so it may be
worth something. In other words, you put some placards out there,
you put some social media posts out there, and you
get the attention of people that like the George Floyd thing.
Now that probably had a consciousness raising things. Now, what
(40:02):
do you do with that? We don't know that for
that one minute in the universe of time. We all
learned that the police can be brutal. So I'm working
on reopening the case of Oscar Grant who was murdered
here in Oakland by the bart police. Bart being Berry
rappit transit and there was a second cop who literally
(40:24):
beat Oscar up and cause have brain injury and everything else.
So we just got a copy, meaning the world of
the autops. Think about it for a minute. We just
got information that Perroni did this and this and the
other from a report that was done and was never published.
And it took a news organization to force that report
(40:48):
to be published. So that's a good action. In other words,
even the news group is getting information so that the
public can have it, so that we can become conscious.
All of these things are in port, but they can't
be done in isolation. That's why we had a newspaper
and Black Panther party, We had a school of our
We fed teeth, but we did we covered all of
(41:09):
these things because they have to work in concert. So
that's a part of what we can be doing is
really focusing. But we gotta you gotta put time into this,
and if you don't put time into it, then you
won't get anything. This is a solid structure. It is
not going to be disrupted. Joe Biden is not disrupted.
He just got rid of about a real, real nagging
(41:33):
painting the ass. But you've got to educate yourselves. If
you want to address this system, you can't look at
TV and think George Floyda is a problem. He's emblemagic
of the problem, and you have to know what the
problem is. So we have to study, we have to organize,
and we have to have the will and the commitment
to make change. So, Elaine, we're out of time, But
(41:55):
I just wanted to ask one last question. Absolutely, I'll
try to debriefing so I know that this is a
forever fight, and well it feels that way for certain Um,
I just want to know, how do you keep hope
and do you think that there are any people in
(42:17):
the right the proper positions to actually create permanent change. Well,
I'm always gonna be hopeful, because if I didn't have
hope and I've changed cynical, it will be the point
of anything, will be the point in my life. I
do believe because evidence supports what I believe, that human
(42:40):
beings lean towards being what we would call moral caring
about each other only because we don't have no goddamn choice.
And one of the things this pandemic is showing is
that most people really do want to do the right thing.
So I have hope because I see them. But as
(43:01):
the divide gets bigger, and it is getting bigger, ironic,
incredibly so that the top one per cent are so
goddamn rich, and the others, then you're gonna get the
people who skim off a little bit bit of cream,
and they're all right with that. But the majority of
people are getting poorer while the rich get richer, as
the old statement used to say. And I believe that
(43:23):
therefore the conditions can be ripe again to resurrect a
real movement. I don't know that they're right right now.
Right right now, people are angry. People are angry. They
don't have housing. That's a big one. They don't have,
you know, anything. They're angry about those two issues, housing
and police brutality. They don't know what to do. And
that's because there's no organization to make it real that
(43:47):
you can gom onto. That's why people still talk about
the Black Panther Party. Here we are. I'm already told
you Black Panther Party hasn't existed, and yet we're still
held up as a model for what we should do,
should do. You got all these ridiculous movies out. I
don't want to talk about them, uh and other stuff.
But the point is I have hope that what I've
(44:10):
committed my life too is meaningful, not because it's my life,
because at the end of the day, this was a ride.
It was it was a crapshoot the whole way. I
want to know that every day I put in work,
even at this stage, even if it doesn't even matter
that much, I put in that work because I believe
in what I'm saying, and so I have to have
hope that um change will come and that somewhere in
(44:34):
the universe. The other part is it's either gonna come
or there won't be any earth, so it doesn't really matter.
But it's can't go on like this because we have
the capacity to kill each other and wipe each other
out holy and completely. Environmental problems may kill us before
a bomb. So what is my hope. My hope is
(44:56):
that the people of the world, at some point that
I bit, will begin to see each other as human
beings on this planet, that we are part of the planet.
We don't even know what's out there yet, So I
believe that conditions will be right. And as my friend
Jamie Alamin Jamiel Abdulah al Amin, who used to be
a trapped brown when Snick was around, and very very
(45:19):
powerful speaker, very powerful organizer, committed to the struggle, still
in prison after twenty years. Now, as he said to me,
you know, sister, I know this that the pendulum will
swing our way again, because life is like that. Life
is not static, and when it does, you'll be ready.
So even if the conditions aren't there, you stay on
(45:40):
keeping on, keep keep on keeping on, and you will
find that'll be a new set of conditions. And if not,
then I gave it my best, and that I gave
it my owl, not my best, my old. I gave
everything I had. So if if I passed out of
this life before some new thing happens, or some bigger
change element occurs or conditions change, I'll be all right
(46:02):
with it. I'll be all right because I know that
life will continue itself. It either will continue itself or
we'll all perish, and that will be the end of
that amazing. Thank you so much, Elaine, Thank you for
all the work that you do, and thank you for
coming on. We really appreciate it, We really do. Thank
you so much. All right, young ladies and thank you
(46:22):
for having it. No happy okay okay yoah the law
(46:58):
about I'm ever so sappy. Repercussions beyond the Path Yeah uh.
Will Packer was acutive producer James Lopez, I wasacutive producer
behind Jack Levy, executive producer and director Let's Go Dominique,
(47:22):
Move Time, Yeah Now, creator and writer, producer Your Baby
You Need Hello, Hello, Whitney Fuller, creative executive Michael keith Berg,
co producer, Carrell Alexis, recording mixer, sound design, Ross Davis,
(47:44):
Audio Consultan, music supervisor Jeff Forster, music by Deaf, Jeff Boy,
Joe Wolf, Tony Homer, Score Mingers Hayes Ramsay Production assistant
Junior Ron Products and Assistance. You didn't main cats now
(48:07):
you did? I Yeah and the Alonza plays Blue lack
Elaine Brown playing as a Lane Brown, Jacksie Boyd as
Jennifer Come on, you did, Yeah, Robbie Jarvis Owen at
(48:34):
Ron Destiny plays Rebecta. You didn't, Yeah, seek Alton additional voices.
You didn't shouts out, so it was missing town Benny's
baby you know for real though, somebody podcast stage Yeah,
(49:00):
Just being a wild packer of media production I heart
production and I am that boy Drew rap. You want
to know me? No phony in Macro run Let's go.
That's an additional voice. Yeah, I want to know more
(49:20):
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