September 9, 2024 • 35 mins
Welcome to Season 4 of NAKED SPORTS!
We're excited to kick off the season with a six-episode docu-series, *The Making of a Rivalry*, which follows the rise of women's basketball stars Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. The series traces their journey from high school to college, examining the media frenzy that has fueled their rivalry. It highlights their impact on the sport and how they've shaped the perception of women's basketball. The series also explores the importance of rivalries in sports and why competition is essential.
This episode features interviews with players, coaches, and sports journalists, offering insights into the players' skills, personalities, and the challenges they face ahead.
Special guests in this episode include Jemele Hill, Sarah Spain, Sabreena Merchant, and more.
Connect: @CariChampion @NakedwithCariChampion
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
For me, the year twenty twenty presents in alchemy a
highlights and the lights. The pandemic and the ensuing shutdown
of the country were alarming, yet simultaneously there was this
racial renaissance. It prompted this nation to confront its ugly
history of white versus black. And while the world was
working to find its way back to normal, there were
(00:27):
two young women who had graduated high school that very year,
preparing to embark on their collegiate and athletic careers. Both
highly touted players from two different backgrounds, two different playing styles,
but arguably the same agenda to be the best. Because
of COVID and different restrictions across the country, and if
we're honest, lack of interest, the world wasn't focused on
(00:48):
women's college basketball, So for the Masses, Caitlin Clark and
Angel Reese seemingly became famous overnight. However, as we find
out in this series, Kitlyn Clark and Angel Reese were
super novas in the making. The Masses were just late
to the discovery. Clark and Reese clearly represent so much
more than basketball. They represent resilience, possibility, and resistance. There
(01:13):
I say, their only court rivalry is what we all
needed to push this country out of archaic archetypes that
surround the game and filter the way we see women's
sports in general. Clark and Reese have expanded the horizons
of the game in ways that my humble mind never envisioned.
So how did we reach this point? Allow me to
(01:34):
tell you a story.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker.
And I don't mean to put Angel Rees in some
kind of villain this role because I don't consider her
a villain.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
But I think every great player needs a foil.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
The reason why we watching women's basketball is not.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Just because of one person.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
It's because of me too.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And you know, I don't think there should be any
criticism for what she did. I honestly didn't see it
when the game was going on.
Speaker 6 (01:59):
But the story Rory became more compelling, and the desire
to watch and talk about it became more compelling when
she had a foil. Angel won a national championship. She
has four million plus followers. She's at the met Galop
Sizza and Meg thee Stallion want to come stick courtside
and watch.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Her naked sports.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
The Making of a Rivalry A six episode docu series
that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas and
Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion,
and welcome to the making of a rivalry.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Typically, what it takes is for there to be a rivalry,
a moment, a star player that comes along that makes
us think differently about the game and gets everybody sort
of galvanized behind either a sport, a player, a moment.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
It's always something.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You know, there's been watershed moments in like Major League Baseball.
You could say when integration occurred. You could say when
Hank Aaron broke bay Brews home run record.
Speaker 6 (02:56):
I'll run Champion at all time, a Henri era.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
There's been these moments that you can just recall off
the top of your head that you felt like the
sport itself was ascending to a higher place. And so
we've been able to experience that.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Jamel Hill covered women's basketball in the beginning of her career,
and I call her a grizzly media veteran, and she
says that this moment in women's basketball has been building.
But Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, well, those two they
set off this explosion of interest.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
This moment in women's basketball is shape shifting.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think a lot of us who have covered women's
basketball and women's sports in particular, I think there's other
sports you could point to that moment when it happened
where you saw there was a decided shifting move that
took the league from one place while growing, but to
an exponential growth. And I'm just really happy I was
alive as someone whose first professional beat was the WNBA
(03:55):
when I was a young cub reporter. So what I
would say is that, yeah, it's shape shifting. It's changing
not just the league, it's changing culture. It's changing the
way we look at female athletes.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I think the.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Last I would say, the last three to five years,
it was it was a steady increase and then it
was like boom, the rocket hit.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
The WNBA is in his twenty eighth season. But if
you start to think about it, some would say it
feels as if history is repeating itself. Jamel reminds us
that the NBA, you know, where the men play, wasn't
always a ratings juggernaut.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
People often forget just how poorly the NBA was thought of.
You know when before Magic and Burg kind of took
the lead to another level. You're talking about you know,
finals games being on tape delay, David Stern having to
deal with the reputation that the NBA was full of
junkies and like they had a massive drug problem in
the league, Like they had a lot of stuff going on,
(04:53):
and really they were very concerned whether or not to
be financially solving Magic and Bird. When they came along,
they weren't ready. I mean, there was so simulate. They
weren't ready for that, but they adapted and they adjusted.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You do use the word detonated when she arrived. What
is it about Caitlyn Clark that changed the landscape of
women's basketball?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So it's a combination of factors.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
And I do hope people focus on the fact I
said combination, okay, because I have realized been talking about
her in the past, if people only hear the trigger word.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
After the break, Jamel will break down some of those
trigger words and explain this new fandom for the women's game,
the making of a rivalry, Caitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese
back in a moment, I don't.
Speaker 7 (05:42):
Really hear the noise.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I just come here and play basketball every single day,
and that's what I focused on.
Speaker 8 (05:46):
I want to personally think Caitlyn Clark for lifting up
our sport.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Don Staley isn't wrong. Caitlyn Clark has lifted the sport,
and it was good to hear her say it. But
it's not just because Caitlyn's a great player. There are
so many other factors that have been ignored.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
She is playing like Steph Curry. It's her whole narrative,
it's her whole story. It's like the way she plays,
the style. Coming from Iowa. And while Iowa basketball has
its own culture and it certainly have had other players,
but I think when you come from Iowa, there's an
underdog nature to that, Like you're not from LA you're
not from you know, New York, a known basketball entity.
(06:26):
You're from Iowa, right, And that's a place that from
a national level, isn't always seen, it's overlooked. It's in
the Midwest, right, So where she is. And then she's straight,
and she's white, and all of those factors. Her talent
leads first, and she broke a lot of very important records.
And then once you start getting to the subgroup and
(06:47):
the nuance, you see how that all appeals. But when
it hit the fan is when suddenly there's a Fox, right,
And I think that's why people make them Harrison so much.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
To Bird and Magic, they needed each other.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You know, it's like the Superman needed Lex Luthor, the
Batman needed the Joker. And I don't mean to put
to put Angel Rees in some kind of villain's role
because I don't consider her a villain.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
But I think every great player needs a foil. They
need a foil, right, and.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know, a foil meaning someone to say, yeah, you're great,
but I'm just as good.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I have just as many tricks.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Correct a foil that can take something from you that
people think you deserve. Like Magic needed Bird to take
things from him, to take Rookie of the Year, to
take championships. He needed that to become a great player,
and he talks about it all the time. Larry Bird
needed the same thing. Why what did Magic take from
Bird yo championships? I mean they were both duking it
(07:50):
out for who was going to be the best player
of that generation, and you know they're the two most
successful franchises in NBA history.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
They needed that. You know, Yan needs Yang all right, and.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
So I ten twins.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, shout out to the right, like it's like you,
Drake needs Kendrick. Kendrick needs Drake.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Drake needs Kendrake. I'm saying Drake needs Kendrack.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
This is what it takes. It's like if you don't.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Just as a reminder, yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
You need somebody who's gonna say, like I, I gotta
take it from him, and you know, I'll relate it
back to your favorite player, am I Isaiah Thomas.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Now, if anybody knows either of us that is false.
Magic is Mike is my favorite. Kobe is my favorite.
But if we talking about that eron, magic is my favorite.
But Isaiah he needed magic, he did, and vice versa.
Yes he needed he needed that foil that was gonna
get him there.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Which is why people are like, who was Magic's.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
And Michael Jordan needed the pistols?
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Excuse me, Michael Jordan's Who was Michael Jordan's foil? In
real time? It was for how long? In a real way?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
See, the thing is is like, you know, because of
the way we were beating Jordan down, you can all
look it up.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
People. It's like, I'm not making it, okay, you did
beat Michael Jordan down.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Okay, okay, okay, Well, once he got past, y'all was
no looking back.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
It didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
It wasn't like y'all had a dynasty. Y'all didn't have
a dona. It wasn't like y'all got seventeen chips. You
don't have seventeen banners hanging in your arena in Detroit. Okay,
what are you at?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Four?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Six?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
We have three? Oh?
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And I was I was being kind, but okay, that's fine,
But we still got seventeen. We should So what you're
telling me is we should have nineteen. We should have nineteen,
is what you're telling me. We gave y'all two just
for charity. It was rigged, fake news.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It was faith in championships out for a franchise Boston.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
What it is they got us this year? God bless y'all.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But we'll be backed bird.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Okay, he needed they need.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
It's not about us, it's not, but it is about us.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
The whole point is the beauty of sports is seeing
the athletes go on the Jerney Peyton Manning needed Tom Brady, Okay,
I mean well, considering how well he.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Needed Eli Manning. Yeah, we gotta keep Tom.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
But if we start, if we, if we it's almost
like San Detroit needed the Lakers. They didn't and so
we have Boston Celtics and we still do.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
You need something that creates the inertia and the tension
and the thing is now. And I think both players,
even though they played different positions, both Angel Res and
Kaylin like, I would not believe either of them if
they said they were not paying attention to what the
other one was doing. Especially you know, we go through
that stretch where Angel has like.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Double double on double double on something that Caylen is uh.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
You know, I think the last regular season game is
we're recording this. She had a w big record nineteen assists.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Like they're they're ever watching, They're topping.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
Each other, they're watching.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
They're absolutely And by the way, if they say they're
not competing in anyone who's watching this, suggesting that we're
pitting them against another, then they shouldn't be playing pro
like because as a professional your job is to compete
at the highest levels.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
You're you're checking what other people.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Are doing, and you're also wanting to be better because
you need to your point, it's a foil in what
she needs. Angel Rees, how would you describe her as
a foil?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I mean, I think I think Angel the girl, the
what I love about watching her play, and even even
her demeanor in general, like she is a writer or
die Like I look at how her teammates respond to her,
and even though she's a rookie and they're senior and
there's veteran leadership that she has on our team. I
look at the relationship she has with Tea Spoon, who
(11:51):
is and was an amazing player, one of the grittiest
dynamic players the league that has ever had. Like te
Spoon didn't play no games right, and it's not surprising
to me that she's like an amazing coach. But looking
at the relationship she has with Kennedy, Carter and Cardosa
and like all the players, even the vets on that team,
you could tell you can even tell this at LSU,
(12:13):
like she is the emotional thermometer. It's her and the
way she carries herself. She still got a lot to learn,
of course, but she plays with a fire and a passion.
Every single play that's hard to teach is very hard
to teach.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Kelsey Plum, the two time w NBA champion with the
Las Vegas Aces, gives her take on Angel Reese.
Speaker 8 (12:35):
People feel insecure, and you have like a strong black
woman that's confident in herself and knows what she's talking about,
and she's just saying what she feels. I think a
lot of people were like, WHOA, Like, how do I
feel about this?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
You never walk away from seeing her play and think
she ain't given enough. You never walk away thinking that
about her. So it's like the tenacity like just jumps
off the page to me. And I think as she
figures out her offensive identity, she gonna be.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
A real problem.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
She already a problem, now she gonna be a real problem.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And she's somebody you could definitely see when I mean
when an MVP one day, like getting all the awards
and now I think people want to see how this
turns out. They want to see between her and Caitlyn,
who wins the championship first, who gets an MVP first,
who gets.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Rooky of the Year. I mean, we're we're in that
right now.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
It's like, yeah, and you talk to players once they're
out of the league, and then they're they're able to
be more honest about how they felt in these moments again,
like they're gonna probably give us the whole Oh, you know,
it's great to be considered like no, no, no, no,
they're trying to beat each other for this awards.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
I think let's talk about that. Let's talk about this rivalry.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
People may be afraid of that word and how how
the story will be couched, but the way in which
you just described it a moment ago was that there
is a need, there's a need for them to have
someone to push them, to make them better, and that
if that person is your rival, then you will be
the best.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
That's great, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
You will always end up in in rare air if
you find yourself constantly competing against the best. There's nothing
wrong with that word rivalry. To me, what is it
about the new fans that need this rivalry, this divisiveness,
this divide? Is it the is it the temperature of
the country that we live in right now?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, I mean everything feels very divided. But you know,
I don't know. I think that the New fans the
I think for especially for people who may have been
watching a little bit longer than some of them, they
come in with such aggressive hot takes like no, I
(14:48):
mean It's like the first that you start watching the
NBA and you say Nbawards is the greatest NBA player ever,
And it's like, what.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Like, you know, so you can watch the five minutes like.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Sir Right's like so they mam When.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
They do stuff like that, it's just kind of like
it grates the nerves a bit. But I'm happy they're
there and I do feel like and I felt this
way during the course of the season. As it became
more about ball, a lot of that calm down, right,
as it became less about the drama, a lot of
that calm down. But what I would say, not just
(15:22):
with new fans, but I would say sports fans in general.
I think where they need to be, where they need
to evolve, is in how women compete. Because it's amazing
to me that the same thing they clutch their little
pearls over in the WBA, they eagerly cheer.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
For it to see men do right.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
They cheer for the rivalry, they cheer for the drama,
they cheer for the pettiness.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I'm like, I see it all the time. They cheer
for it.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
One of the reasons I brought up Anthony Edwards, one
of the reasons people love him is because he just.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Don't give it you no way, you don't care.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I mean that may have got to the Olympics this
first of all he said, oh no, I'm the star player.
Speaker 9 (15:58):
Yeah, I'll still number one out. Y'all might look at
it different.
Speaker 10 (16:01):
I don't look here at different.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
I'm like, who else Bron still here?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Yeah, he was like.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
No, no, no, no, no, like this is my team.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Well that fits in is society.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Culture has a society has a way in which women
are supposed to conduct themselves, even on the basketball chort
And so you have noticed that the labeling of the
rivalry has such a negative connotation when it shouldn't, because
we love a rivalry in the NBA and it's celebrated.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
In fact, what's the number one complaint you hear about
in the NBA. They're too friendly, not enough rivalries.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Boat hanging out exactly, all the good things.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
And they all trained together.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
My my NBA.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
They weren't fransactly, they would never never.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
They can stand each other. It was beating Michael Jordan's
down Heaven for bed.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And then the ladies, you know, they engage, and I
mean because they're competitors. Competitors too, they show something similar.
It's like, what about the children.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Okay, that'd be all right, send them home, you know
what I'm saying, because if it if we were at
an NBA game, You're like, that's how it's played, Fellas,
It's very much. It's very much how if you have
a son and a daughter. Your son can stay out
all night, but you don't know where your daughter is. Sheese, Yeah,
you're going.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
To trigger me.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
One of the biggest complaints about the new fans of
the w n b A is the slow acceptance to
allow women to compete.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
But it's true.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's like they want women to, you know, to on
the basketball court to sit around and braid each other's
hair and talk about you know, relationships and and and
hold hands and sway like that's I'm like, I don't
get this. It's been a physically Yes, you as a rookie,
you gonna get it. Like I don't care who you are,
(17:51):
you gonna get it because they want to see all
this fanfare you come in.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
He is it real? Can you do it?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So when you watch people complain about the way in
which Caitlyn Clark might be being treated on the court,
do you find yourself helping people Remember a w NBA
of yesteryear.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Oh yeah, I mean like I remember when the Kennedy
Carter when she gave Caitlin the I mean, I feel
like I'm diminishing it by calling it a herd follow.
I mean, it was a cheap shot shot. It was
not a basketball player. It was not a basketball player.
But I had to remind him. I was like, Okay,
you know there was maybe. I mean, I mean, for
(18:33):
sure one of the greatest rookies the WNBA has ever had.
And some people will be like, the greatest rookie the
WNBA has ever had.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
They tried to kill Okay, this Parker like she got
to a brawl as a rookie.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Would had become a physical game.
Speaker 9 (18:46):
Is ridley deteriorated.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Hearson and Parker tried off.
Speaker 9 (18:49):
With one another.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
They had her on the ground, had her on the ground.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Lisa Leslie ready, they had.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Lisa Leslie Cannis Perker was on the ground and someone
was on top of her, not telling her sweet yeah,
you're detrip once again.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
That's why yank ye I can't have nice things.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Okay, just right on up.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
She talks about all the time about those many rookie
moments that she had that year. Every single player in
the WNBA could tell you about a moment where they.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Had to prove it. They was about that life. You
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
My name is Sabrina Merchant, and I'm a staff writer
at The Athletic covering women's basketball.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
My colleague, Sabrina Merchant was on assignment for the women's
National Championship game in twenty twenty three. In fact, she
covered the tournament and like many, she was surprised when
Iowa and Caitlin Clark be defending champions South Carolina.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
It's good to see you, dear friend.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I find it interesting that we find this moment to
have a conversation because I almost feel as if you
have always been leading the way on some of these stories,
like stories that have been really really juicy, for lack
of a better word, really complicated, convoluted, controversial, and because
it's been women's basketball, no one's paid attention. You've reported
(20:10):
on some very intent negotiations, breakups, cover ups, and it
just all went under I guess the radar. What's changed
since the last time we talked in terms of women's basketball.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
So I think The last time we spoke was twenty
twenty three WNBA Finals, which was what a great moment
that was. That was an incredible series. Two superstars at
the peak of their power is going at it. And
think of all that has happened since then. We just
had two players, Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees, who came
onto the national stage and decided that they were not
going to step off of it.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Let's go to October. You mentioned the twenty twenty three
w NBA Finals. Before the WNBA Finals, there was this
little game where these these two young ladies by the
name of Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Meant yeah, So I was covering the West Coast games
in the tournament. So I was in Caitlin Clark's regional
in Seattle in twenty twenty three. And Great Arena Seattle,
you know, it's where the Seattle Storm play. It's only
women's basketball and hockey arena. And this is probably like
sixty percent full during these Elite eight and Sweet sixteen games. Again,
Elite eate Sweet sixteen games, like you know, there's a
(21:19):
right to play for the final four. Iowa was playing
Louisville Hailey Van Luth, Big name too. That's sixty percent
full here. So you know you could tell Caitlin Clark's
a great player. You know she was in the running
for a National Player of the Year. Ultimately ends up
losing to Alia Boston, but or maybe that was the
year before. But regardless, like a great player. We're not
talking national phenomenon yet. Then you get to the final four.
(21:41):
You have Iowa versus undefeated South Carolina, and South Carolina
comes in as the defending national champion, starting five that
has lost maybe eight or nine games together in their
last four years, undefeated throughout the regular season, presumably just
two games where.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
I say, basically, we all saw going did this tournament?
Don Stale and South Carolina game Cocks were going to win. Yeah,
that's what it was.
Speaker 10 (22:04):
A no.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
It was a no.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Like if you picked against South Carolina and your bracket
you were just asking, You're like, well, what are you
doing exactly?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
You're you're going against Kobe, You're going against Jordan, You're
going against the best of the best, You're going against
Tom Brady.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
What are you doing exactly?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
So it's a nightcap on that Friday, the final four LSU,
who has already beaten Virginia Tech, which in hindsight is
a dramatically more important game than we gave it credit for.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
In the time.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
But you know, Caitlin leads Iowa to this upset of
South Carolina, and the energy in that building is unlike
anything I can remember previously being present for just live.
You know, the tension of like watching a goliath get slain, right, Like,
you just don't see that very often, and you know,
(22:47):
naturally a team effort. We've seen Kate Martin go on
to have a nice little stint with the last ba's aces.
So far, everybody can name players on Iowa now, right,
like Gabby Marshall, Monicut's not. This is the Caitlyn Clark Show.
And she puts up forty points another her magnificent performance
and takes down the giants, and it's, oh my god, like,
what did we just witness?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
What did we just witness? Is she the best thing ever?
Is she the next Steph Curry? Is she the female
Steph Curry? Exactly all the questions people were asking. Because
I was shocked that she beat Don Staley.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
In South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I was like, there was no game plan for her, right,
there was no game plan for Caitlin Clark, and.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
It didn't seem like a fluke either. It looked like
she was in complete control of that game, which is
not something you expect to see against again, undefeated, defending
national champion, like multiple players going to the pros, best
defense in the country, all of that.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
You name it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
They had every accohlade and she walked into Don Staley
and Don Staley was just the cherry on top of
the ice cream. So she walks away from this game
and we're I know, I'm thinking, I don't know what
we've just witnessed, but everyone is talking about it. I'm
not and by everyone, I mean not just within our world.
It's on national news. It is everywhere. People who don't
(23:59):
watch to women's basketball or telling you about what they
think about these women.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Yeah, it's the kind of thing where you get texts
the next morning like, oh my god, did you watch
that game?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Can you believe what just happened?
Speaker 5 (24:08):
Is that professionally, this isn't what I have to do
to be in person to cover that game.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Oh, Test Conker stuff up?
Speaker 5 (24:16):
Yeah, that was I think that's when the switch flitch.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
After the break, my colleague and host of a Good
Game podcast, Sarah Spain shares her thoughts.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
Having so many conversations with different WNBA players and reporters
over the years, one of the things that was standing
in the way of people embracing the game is just
that it looks a little different than professional men's basketball,
and people who could get hung up on they're not
dunking would choose that as the reason that they didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Appreciate the game back in a moment.
Speaker 6 (24:50):
For a lot of sports radio and sports TV, you
need to have a take. And if you're not watching
a lot of games and you don't know a lot
about the players or the sport.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Take doesn't have any legs. If you can just say
I like Caitlin Clark.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
I don't like Angel Reed, or should women be this competitive?
Or are they trying to take her, you can have
a conversation on your show and you can get people
fired up about it without ever having to do the work.
And that's sometimes a good thing, not for the product
that comes out, but for the coverage coming out of it.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
It was really good for women's.
Speaker 6 (25:24):
College basketball and eventually the WNBA that people had this thing,
this rivalry that they could create takes.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Out of I'm sure you've heard analysts on television say
welcome to the new fans of the WNBA. I'm sure
I've said it many a times, but if I'm honest,
I don't know that much of us really know anything
about these ladies off the court, especially Caitlin Clark. Here's
Sarah Spain of the Good Game podcast.
Speaker 6 (25:50):
All you need to know is she's jacking up shots
from basically half court. She's hitting logo threes on the regular,
and she's doing it in clutch moments, and that alone
opens the door a jar for people to step in
and appreciate her play and then start watching the rest
of the game and say, oh, this is good. But
that was the ultimate sort of backbreaker for that argument
(26:11):
that women weren't worth watching because they couldn't done.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Was like, oh, wait, she's doing something the guys aren't
doing well.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
To that same idea, everyone says she plays like Steph Curry.
She has every Steph Curry I think is arguably one
of the most impactful players in basketball in terms of
his every man's game, and people have called her every
every woman's game if you will, It's very common. It
feels like I can do it. She's a girl next door.
All of these things feel very marketable when you look
(26:36):
at the WNBA, do you feel that's a slight on
the women who've already built this league for so many years.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
I think the.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Way we talk about Caitlin Clark can be in.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
Good faith talking about the ways that she is appealing,
and the same way that we could talk about Steph
Curry being appealing because you felt like watching him, like, oh,
I could do that, which is very different than watching
Michael Jordan Shack or Lebron James. And then there's ways
that we talk about Caitlin Clark that are almost obtuse
with intention so as to disregard the ways that we
(27:09):
haven't respected the existing players in the WNBA over the decades,
particularly players of color, players who are masculine presenting, players
who are openly LGBTQIA plus right. When we are intentional
about promoting and singling out a straight white girl next
door as the face of a league that has been
(27:30):
predominantly black, we have to acknowledge why that's happening. And
if you look across the landscape of women's sports, so
often what has become considered palatable in the eyes of
many who want to place women in specific lanes. Is
the sports that have predominantly white athletes who have esthetically
generally pleasing body types and who we can sort of
(27:55):
infantilize as your little girl all grown up right, just
the perfect little role models had a sit soccer, right,
And those sports are changing by the way, and we're
witnessing and getting through the issues of the changing faces
and representatives for those sports in ways that are worth
discussing too. But in basketball in particular, when you find
that the focus is on Caitlin Clark Paige Becker's Sueer
(28:18):
Bird at the expense of other players, because it's not
to say that they're not deserving, but it is to
say that who else has been contributing at the highest level,
who else is worthy of that praise, those marketing deals,
those sponsorships that we're not paying attention to, and why,
let's be honest about it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Kitlyn Clark is a game changer and she's brought so
many new eyes to the WNBA. And episode two we
talk to the people who know Kitlyn Clark intimately will
also hear from the game changer herself next time on
Naked Sports.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Who is Kitlyn Clark.
Speaker 10 (28:51):
When you watch her play, her vision and her understanding
of the game, the game is literally slowed down in
her mind, you know, and she sees these passing angles
that even the past or the receiver of the past
doesn't even see, you know, And you're watching in the
stands or on the side of the court, and you
don't always even see it as a coach, you know,
or a fan until it happens. And so just to
(29:13):
see firsthand how she sees the game, and it's kind
of hard to explain because even as we watch her,
you can't get in her mind. But the game is
literally slower for her than other people.
Speaker 7 (29:25):
I mean, I have known Caitlin since she was in
eighth grade. I've been following her. We had been recruiting
her since then because we knew she was such a
special talent. And then it came time for her senior
year and her to make this decision. And she grew
up in a Catholic high school, very strong Catholic family,
and so Notre Dame, of course, was a logical decision
(29:45):
for her to make, but her heart wasn't there. And
she went on her visit and she came home and
was really just didn't feel good about it after she'd
committed to them, and so had somebody call me up
to find out would I still be interested than having her? Well,
of course, so so she did end up calling Notre
Dame and declining and then called me up.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
I can still remember where I was.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
My husband and I were out having dinner. She called
me up and said, if you'd have me, if you
still have a spot available, I'd love to be a Hawkeye.
Speaker 9 (30:17):
And this was my first season doing the women's college game.
And I go back and we're watching a little bit
and I see her pull up thirty five feet or
whatever it was, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this
is just this is crazy. And the ratings are through
the roof, nowhere near where they're at now, but for
that time, shattered records for US on ESPN and that
(30:37):
game was on ABC, and so people are like, oh,
this Kaitlyn Clark player, she's fun whatever. Well, Caitlyn continues
to get better and better, and then her moments become
more and more viral, and all of a sudden you
have people who are seeing clips of her and they're saying,
oh my gosh, who is this they're seeing the insane
no look passes, they're seeing the downpour passes. But more
than anything else at this moment, what they're seeing is
(30:59):
they're seeing someone pull up off the dribble from thirty
thirty five forty feet and just having these incredible performances
to someone who's leading the nation and scoring and assisting
over and over again.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
The mastering of Caylan Clark continues.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
I think that's part of what makes Caitlyn so compelling
to watch is that you can see everything on her face.
She doesn't hide anything. She is incredibly emotional throughout the
course of a game, and that makes her a more
interesting figure on television and in person. But if you're
only tuning in for the national title game, you think, oh,
this poor girl from Iowa is getting bullied by you know,
the big bad alis you girls, which couldn't be farther
(31:37):
from the truth, because, as Caitlyn said repeatedly after the game,
like she'd beenditioned out the same stuff for five previous
games while she was winning. But like you said, the
optics make people uncomfortable, Like there is there's a racial element,
which I mean, we let it slide on the men's side,
right like if a male athlete taunts another male athlete,
doesn't really matter if they're black and white. It's just
two men going at one another. But there was an
(31:58):
extra layer because they're women. Because we don't let women
show their emotions like that in public, they were not
given that same level of grace.
Speaker 11 (32:09):
I remember Kaylyn Clark going viral for like logo threes
and step back threes, and it was like, oh, she
plays like stuff. That's what I was hearing. And I
was like, oh, like, I hadn't seen somebody in a
minute shooting from that deep. I hadn't seen like I've
seen players really good. But logo threes was her thing.
And I was like, Iowa, I don't remember Iowa being good.
(32:30):
And I was like, oh, ls, she was pretty good.
And I remember they beat Iowa, and I know I
remember Kaylyn Clark was really braggadocious like she was she
was doing this, she was she was ah like she
was playing with a lot of emotion, which is cool.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
I love it.
Speaker 11 (32:44):
And then when Angel Rees and them played and Angel
Reese put it back in her face, I was like, okay,
Like this is competition the way I like it. And
then like when I was watching the game. It wasn't
that big. I was like, oh, this is great. She
pointed out a ring. She did all this and then
like I feel like immediately that day it became like
Angel getting called class list and I was like, and
(33:06):
this is for me. It was like here we go again,
because I remember, like Tom Brady, he takes off his
helmet and throws it. He's passionate as Brian does it.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
They got mad at too, Yeah they got mad.
Speaker 11 (33:18):
But they didn't get mad at Tom. Tom is always passionate.
Is he's losing his cool. Odell Beckham loses cool. So
it's it's quite often that black athletes and white athletes
do the same thing and it's looked at very differently.
And with Angel Reese, I was like here we here
we go. Like so as a black person, I'm like, nah,
I got to ride for you because I got to
(33:38):
defend black women. I'm gonna be on your side. So
that's what I remember. Like it become becoming a huge,
huge thing. And I remember they played the next year
and I remember saying, you know, I did make my joke.
I was like, Race War two is happening.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Would Caitlin Clark be such a supernova if there were
no Angel Reese, I don't know, no, no, Who is
Caitlin Clark. That's episode two of Making of a Rivalry.
The Making of a Rivalry Kitlin Clark versus Angel Reese
is a Be Honest production in partnership with the Black
(34:15):
Effect podcast Network in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive
produced by me Kerry Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana,
produced by Jack Vice Thomas Sound Design and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer Olubu Sayle Shabby. Naked Sports is
a part of the Black Effect podcast Network in iHeartMedia.
(34:36):
Hey everybody, if you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to
the podcast, and for those who've been with us since
season one, thank you for Right now. We're kicking off
season four with this six episode docu series that you're
listening to right now, and after that, Naked Sports will
continue to live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture.
We're covering all things from the presidential race to the
(34:57):
WNBA Rookie of the Year contests.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
This season will be bold.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
As you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
our show so very unique.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
We appreciate you for.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Being here, and thank you all for the support. We'll
talk to you next week.
For me, the year twenty twenty presents in alchemy a
highlights and the lights. The pandemic and the ensuing shutdown
of the country were alarming, yet simultaneously there was this
racial renaissance. It prompted this nation to confront its ugly
history of white versus black. And while the world was
working to find its way back to normal, there were
(00:27):
two young women who had graduated high school that very year,
preparing to embark on their collegiate and athletic careers. Both
highly touted players from two different backgrounds, two different playing styles,
but arguably the same agenda to be the best. Because
of COVID and different restrictions across the country, and if
we're honest, lack of interest, the world wasn't focused on
(00:48):
women's college basketball, So for the Masses, Caitlin Clark and
Angel Reese seemingly became famous overnight. However, as we find
out in this series, Kitlyn Clark and Angel Reese were
super novas in the making. The Masses were just late
to the discovery. Clark and Reese clearly represent so much
more than basketball. They represent resilience, possibility, and resistance. There
(01:13):
I say, their only court rivalry is what we all
needed to push this country out of archaic archetypes that
surround the game and filter the way we see women's
sports in general. Clark and Reese have expanded the horizons
of the game in ways that my humble mind never envisioned.
So how did we reach this point? Allow me to
(01:34):
tell you a story.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker.
And I don't mean to put Angel Rees in some
kind of villain this role because I don't consider her
a villain.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
But I think every great player needs a foil.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
The reason why we watching women's basketball is not.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Just because of one person.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
It's because of me too.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And you know, I don't think there should be any
criticism for what she did. I honestly didn't see it
when the game was going on.
Speaker 6 (01:59):
But the story Rory became more compelling, and the desire
to watch and talk about it became more compelling when
she had a foil. Angel won a national championship. She
has four million plus followers. She's at the met Galop
Sizza and Meg thee Stallion want to come stick courtside
and watch.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Her naked sports.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
The Making of a Rivalry A six episode docu series
that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas and
Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion,
and welcome to the making of a rivalry.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Typically, what it takes is for there to be a rivalry,
a moment, a star player that comes along that makes
us think differently about the game and gets everybody sort
of galvanized behind either a sport, a player, a moment.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
It's always something.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You know, there's been watershed moments in like Major League Baseball.
You could say when integration occurred. You could say when
Hank Aaron broke bay Brews home run record.
Speaker 6 (02:56):
I'll run Champion at all time, a Henri era.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
There's been these moments that you can just recall off
the top of your head that you felt like the
sport itself was ascending to a higher place. And so
we've been able to experience that.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Jamel Hill covered women's basketball in the beginning of her career,
and I call her a grizzly media veteran, and she
says that this moment in women's basketball has been building.
But Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, well, those two they
set off this explosion of interest.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
This moment in women's basketball is shape shifting.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think a lot of us who have covered women's
basketball and women's sports in particular, I think there's other
sports you could point to that moment when it happened
where you saw there was a decided shifting move that
took the league from one place while growing, but to
an exponential growth. And I'm just really happy I was
alive as someone whose first professional beat was the WNBA
(03:55):
when I was a young cub reporter. So what I
would say is that, yeah, it's shape shifting. It's changing
not just the league, it's changing culture. It's changing the
way we look at female athletes.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I think the.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Last I would say, the last three to five years,
it was it was a steady increase and then it
was like boom, the rocket hit.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
The WNBA is in his twenty eighth season. But if
you start to think about it, some would say it
feels as if history is repeating itself. Jamel reminds us
that the NBA, you know, where the men play, wasn't
always a ratings juggernaut.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
People often forget just how poorly the NBA was thought of.
You know when before Magic and Burg kind of took
the lead to another level. You're talking about you know,
finals games being on tape delay, David Stern having to
deal with the reputation that the NBA was full of
junkies and like they had a massive drug problem in
the league, Like they had a lot of stuff going on,
(04:53):
and really they were very concerned whether or not to
be financially solving Magic and Bird. When they came along,
they weren't ready. I mean, there was so simulate. They
weren't ready for that, but they adapted and they adjusted.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You do use the word detonated when she arrived. What
is it about Caitlyn Clark that changed the landscape of
women's basketball?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So it's a combination of factors.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
And I do hope people focus on the fact I
said combination, okay, because I have realized been talking about
her in the past, if people only hear the trigger word.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
After the break, Jamel will break down some of those
trigger words and explain this new fandom for the women's game,
the making of a rivalry, Caitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese
back in a moment, I don't.
Speaker 7 (05:42):
Really hear the noise.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I just come here and play basketball every single day,
and that's what I focused on.
Speaker 8 (05:46):
I want to personally think Caitlyn Clark for lifting up
our sport.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Don Staley isn't wrong. Caitlyn Clark has lifted the sport,
and it was good to hear her say it. But
it's not just because Caitlyn's a great player. There are
so many other factors that have been ignored.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
She is playing like Steph Curry. It's her whole narrative,
it's her whole story. It's like the way she plays,
the style. Coming from Iowa. And while Iowa basketball has
its own culture and it certainly have had other players,
but I think when you come from Iowa, there's an
underdog nature to that, Like you're not from LA you're
not from you know, New York, a known basketball entity.
(06:26):
You're from Iowa, right, And that's a place that from
a national level, isn't always seen, it's overlooked. It's in
the Midwest, right, So where she is. And then she's straight,
and she's white, and all of those factors. Her talent
leads first, and she broke a lot of very important records.
And then once you start getting to the subgroup and
(06:47):
the nuance, you see how that all appeals. But when
it hit the fan is when suddenly there's a Fox, right,
And I think that's why people make them Harrison so much.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
To Bird and Magic, they needed each other.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You know, it's like the Superman needed Lex Luthor, the
Batman needed the Joker. And I don't mean to put
to put Angel Rees in some kind of villain's role
because I don't consider her a villain.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
But I think every great player needs a foil. They
need a foil, right, and.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know, a foil meaning someone to say, yeah, you're great,
but I'm just as good.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I have just as many tricks.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Correct a foil that can take something from you that
people think you deserve. Like Magic needed Bird to take
things from him, to take Rookie of the Year, to
take championships. He needed that to become a great player,
and he talks about it all the time. Larry Bird
needed the same thing. Why what did Magic take from
Bird yo championships? I mean they were both duking it
(07:50):
out for who was going to be the best player
of that generation, and you know they're the two most
successful franchises in NBA history.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
They needed that. You know, Yan needs Yang all right, and.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
So I ten twins.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, shout out to the right, like it's like you,
Drake needs Kendrick. Kendrick needs Drake.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Drake needs Kendrake. I'm saying Drake needs Kendrack.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
This is what it takes. It's like if you don't.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Just as a reminder, yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
You need somebody who's gonna say, like I, I gotta
take it from him, and you know, I'll relate it
back to your favorite player, am I Isaiah Thomas.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Now, if anybody knows either of us that is false.
Magic is Mike is my favorite. Kobe is my favorite.
But if we talking about that eron, magic is my favorite.
But Isaiah he needed magic, he did, and vice versa.
Yes he needed he needed that foil that was gonna
get him there.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Which is why people are like, who was Magic's.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
And Michael Jordan needed the pistols?
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Excuse me, Michael Jordan's Who was Michael Jordan's foil? In
real time? It was for how long? In a real way?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
See, the thing is is like, you know, because of
the way we were beating Jordan down, you can all
look it up.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
People. It's like, I'm not making it, okay, you did
beat Michael Jordan down.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Okay, okay, okay, Well, once he got past, y'all was
no looking back.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
It didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
It wasn't like y'all had a dynasty. Y'all didn't have
a dona. It wasn't like y'all got seventeen chips. You
don't have seventeen banners hanging in your arena in Detroit. Okay,
what are you at?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Four?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Six?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
We have three? Oh?
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And I was I was being kind, but okay, that's fine,
But we still got seventeen. We should So what you're
telling me is we should have nineteen. We should have nineteen,
is what you're telling me. We gave y'all two just
for charity. It was rigged, fake news.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It was faith in championships out for a franchise Boston.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
What it is they got us this year? God bless y'all.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But we'll be backed bird.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Okay, he needed they need.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
It's not about us, it's not, but it is about us.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
The whole point is the beauty of sports is seeing
the athletes go on the Jerney Peyton Manning needed Tom Brady, Okay,
I mean well, considering how well he.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Needed Eli Manning. Yeah, we gotta keep Tom.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
But if we start, if we, if we it's almost
like San Detroit needed the Lakers. They didn't and so
we have Boston Celtics and we still do.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
You need something that creates the inertia and the tension
and the thing is now. And I think both players,
even though they played different positions, both Angel Res and
Kaylin like, I would not believe either of them if
they said they were not paying attention to what the
other one was doing. Especially you know, we go through
that stretch where Angel has like.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Double double on double double on something that Caylen is uh.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
You know, I think the last regular season game is
we're recording this. She had a w big record nineteen assists.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Like they're they're ever watching, They're topping.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
Each other, they're watching.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
They're absolutely And by the way, if they say they're
not competing in anyone who's watching this, suggesting that we're
pitting them against another, then they shouldn't be playing pro
like because as a professional your job is to compete
at the highest levels.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
You're you're checking what other people.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Are doing, and you're also wanting to be better because
you need to your point, it's a foil in what
she needs. Angel Rees, how would you describe her as
a foil?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I mean, I think I think Angel the girl, the
what I love about watching her play, and even even
her demeanor in general, like she is a writer or
die Like I look at how her teammates respond to her,
and even though she's a rookie and they're senior and
there's veteran leadership that she has on our team. I
look at the relationship she has with Tea Spoon, who
(11:51):
is and was an amazing player, one of the grittiest
dynamic players the league that has ever had. Like te
Spoon didn't play no games right, and it's not surprising
to me that she's like an amazing coach. But looking
at the relationship she has with Kennedy, Carter and Cardosa
and like all the players, even the vets on that team,
you could tell you can even tell this at LSU,
(12:13):
like she is the emotional thermometer. It's her and the
way she carries herself. She still got a lot to learn,
of course, but she plays with a fire and a passion.
Every single play that's hard to teach is very hard
to teach.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Kelsey Plum, the two time w NBA champion with the
Las Vegas Aces, gives her take on Angel Reese.
Speaker 8 (12:35):
People feel insecure, and you have like a strong black
woman that's confident in herself and knows what she's talking about,
and she's just saying what she feels. I think a
lot of people were like, WHOA, Like, how do I
feel about this?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
You never walk away from seeing her play and think
she ain't given enough. You never walk away thinking that
about her. So it's like the tenacity like just jumps
off the page to me. And I think as she
figures out her offensive identity, she gonna be.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
A real problem.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
She already a problem, now she gonna be a real problem.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And she's somebody you could definitely see when I mean
when an MVP one day, like getting all the awards
and now I think people want to see how this
turns out. They want to see between her and Caitlyn,
who wins the championship first, who gets an MVP first,
who gets.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Rooky of the Year. I mean, we're we're in that
right now.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
It's like, yeah, and you talk to players once they're
out of the league, and then they're they're able to
be more honest about how they felt in these moments again,
like they're gonna probably give us the whole Oh, you know,
it's great to be considered like no, no, no, no,
they're trying to beat each other for this awards.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
I think let's talk about that. Let's talk about this rivalry.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
People may be afraid of that word and how how
the story will be couched, but the way in which
you just described it a moment ago was that there
is a need, there's a need for them to have
someone to push them, to make them better, and that
if that person is your rival, then you will be
the best.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
That's great, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
You will always end up in in rare air if
you find yourself constantly competing against the best. There's nothing
wrong with that word rivalry. To me, what is it
about the new fans that need this rivalry, this divisiveness,
this divide? Is it the is it the temperature of
the country that we live in right now?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, I mean everything feels very divided. But you know,
I don't know. I think that the New fans the
I think for especially for people who may have been
watching a little bit longer than some of them, they
come in with such aggressive hot takes like no, I
(14:48):
mean It's like the first that you start watching the
NBA and you say Nbawards is the greatest NBA player ever,
And it's like, what.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Like, you know, so you can watch the five minutes like.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Sir Right's like so they mam When.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
They do stuff like that, it's just kind of like
it grates the nerves a bit. But I'm happy they're
there and I do feel like and I felt this
way during the course of the season. As it became
more about ball, a lot of that calm down, right,
as it became less about the drama, a lot of
that calm down. But what I would say, not just
(15:22):
with new fans, but I would say sports fans in general.
I think where they need to be, where they need
to evolve, is in how women compete. Because it's amazing
to me that the same thing they clutch their little
pearls over in the WBA, they eagerly cheer.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
For it to see men do right.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
They cheer for the rivalry, they cheer for the drama,
they cheer for the pettiness.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I'm like, I see it all the time. They cheer
for it.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
One of the reasons I brought up Anthony Edwards, one
of the reasons people love him is because he just.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Don't give it you no way, you don't care.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I mean that may have got to the Olympics this
first of all he said, oh no, I'm the star player.
Speaker 9 (15:58):
Yeah, I'll still number one out. Y'all might look at
it different.
Speaker 10 (16:01):
I don't look here at different.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
I'm like, who else Bron still here?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Yeah, he was like.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
No, no, no, no, no, like this is my team.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Well that fits in is society.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Culture has a society has a way in which women
are supposed to conduct themselves, even on the basketball chort
And so you have noticed that the labeling of the
rivalry has such a negative connotation when it shouldn't, because
we love a rivalry in the NBA and it's celebrated.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
In fact, what's the number one complaint you hear about
in the NBA. They're too friendly, not enough rivalries.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Boat hanging out exactly, all the good things.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
And they all trained together.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
My my NBA.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
They weren't fransactly, they would never never.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
They can stand each other. It was beating Michael Jordan's
down Heaven for bed.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And then the ladies, you know, they engage, and I
mean because they're competitors. Competitors too, they show something similar.
It's like, what about the children.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Okay, that'd be all right, send them home, you know
what I'm saying, because if it if we were at
an NBA game, You're like, that's how it's played, Fellas,
It's very much. It's very much how if you have
a son and a daughter. Your son can stay out
all night, but you don't know where your daughter is. Sheese, Yeah,
you're going.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
To trigger me.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
One of the biggest complaints about the new fans of
the w n b A is the slow acceptance to
allow women to compete.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
But it's true.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's like they want women to, you know, to on
the basketball court to sit around and braid each other's
hair and talk about you know, relationships and and and
hold hands and sway like that's I'm like, I don't
get this. It's been a physically Yes, you as a rookie,
you gonna get it. Like I don't care who you are,
(17:51):
you gonna get it because they want to see all
this fanfare you come in.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
He is it real? Can you do it?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So when you watch people complain about the way in
which Caitlyn Clark might be being treated on the court,
do you find yourself helping people Remember a w NBA
of yesteryear.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Oh yeah, I mean like I remember when the Kennedy
Carter when she gave Caitlin the I mean, I feel
like I'm diminishing it by calling it a herd follow.
I mean, it was a cheap shot shot. It was
not a basketball player. It was not a basketball player.
But I had to remind him. I was like, Okay,
you know there was maybe. I mean, I mean, for
(18:33):
sure one of the greatest rookies the WNBA has ever had.
And some people will be like, the greatest rookie the
WNBA has ever had.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
They tried to kill Okay, this Parker like she got
to a brawl as a rookie.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Would had become a physical game.
Speaker 9 (18:46):
Is ridley deteriorated.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Hearson and Parker tried off.
Speaker 9 (18:49):
With one another.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
They had her on the ground, had her on the ground.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Lisa Leslie ready, they had.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Lisa Leslie Cannis Perker was on the ground and someone
was on top of her, not telling her sweet yeah,
you're detrip once again.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
That's why yank ye I can't have nice things.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Okay, just right on up.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
She talks about all the time about those many rookie
moments that she had that year. Every single player in
the WNBA could tell you about a moment where they.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Had to prove it. They was about that life. You
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
My name is Sabrina Merchant, and I'm a staff writer
at The Athletic covering women's basketball.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
My colleague, Sabrina Merchant was on assignment for the women's
National Championship game in twenty twenty three. In fact, she
covered the tournament and like many, she was surprised when
Iowa and Caitlin Clark be defending champions South Carolina.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
It's good to see you, dear friend.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I find it interesting that we find this moment to
have a conversation because I almost feel as if you
have always been leading the way on some of these stories,
like stories that have been really really juicy, for lack
of a better word, really complicated, convoluted, controversial, and because
it's been women's basketball, no one's paid attention. You've reported
(20:10):
on some very intent negotiations, breakups, cover ups, and it
just all went under I guess the radar. What's changed
since the last time we talked in terms of women's basketball.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
So I think The last time we spoke was twenty
twenty three WNBA Finals, which was what a great moment
that was. That was an incredible series. Two superstars at
the peak of their power is going at it. And
think of all that has happened since then. We just
had two players, Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees, who came
onto the national stage and decided that they were not
going to step off of it.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Let's go to October. You mentioned the twenty twenty three
w NBA Finals. Before the WNBA Finals, there was this
little game where these these two young ladies by the
name of Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Meant yeah, So I was covering the West Coast games
in the tournament. So I was in Caitlin Clark's regional
in Seattle in twenty twenty three. And Great Arena Seattle,
you know, it's where the Seattle Storm play. It's only
women's basketball and hockey arena. And this is probably like
sixty percent full during these Elite eight and Sweet sixteen games. Again,
Elite eate Sweet sixteen games, like you know, there's a
(21:19):
right to play for the final four. Iowa was playing
Louisville Hailey Van Luth, Big name too. That's sixty percent
full here. So you know you could tell Caitlin Clark's
a great player. You know she was in the running
for a National Player of the Year. Ultimately ends up
losing to Alia Boston, but or maybe that was the
year before. But regardless, like a great player. We're not
talking national phenomenon yet. Then you get to the final four.
(21:41):
You have Iowa versus undefeated South Carolina, and South Carolina
comes in as the defending national champion, starting five that
has lost maybe eight or nine games together in their
last four years, undefeated throughout the regular season, presumably just
two games where.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
I say, basically, we all saw going did this tournament?
Don Stale and South Carolina game Cocks were going to win. Yeah,
that's what it was.
Speaker 10 (22:04):
A no.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
It was a no.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Like if you picked against South Carolina and your bracket
you were just asking, You're like, well, what are you
doing exactly?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
You're you're going against Kobe, You're going against Jordan, You're
going against the best of the best, You're going against
Tom Brady.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
What are you doing exactly?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
So it's a nightcap on that Friday, the final four LSU,
who has already beaten Virginia Tech, which in hindsight is
a dramatically more important game than we gave it credit for.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
In the time.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
But you know, Caitlin leads Iowa to this upset of
South Carolina, and the energy in that building is unlike
anything I can remember previously being present for just live.
You know, the tension of like watching a goliath get slain, right, Like,
you just don't see that very often, and you know,
(22:47):
naturally a team effort. We've seen Kate Martin go on
to have a nice little stint with the last ba's aces.
So far, everybody can name players on Iowa now, right,
like Gabby Marshall, Monicut's not. This is the Caitlyn Clark Show.
And she puts up forty points another her magnificent performance
and takes down the giants, and it's, oh my god, like,
what did we just witness?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
What did we just witness? Is she the best thing ever?
Is she the next Steph Curry? Is she the female
Steph Curry? Exactly all the questions people were asking. Because
I was shocked that she beat Don Staley.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
In South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I was like, there was no game plan for her, right,
there was no game plan for Caitlin Clark, and.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
It didn't seem like a fluke either. It looked like
she was in complete control of that game, which is
not something you expect to see against again, undefeated, defending
national champion, like multiple players going to the pros, best
defense in the country, all of that.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
You name it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
They had every accohlade and she walked into Don Staley
and Don Staley was just the cherry on top of
the ice cream. So she walks away from this game
and we're I know, I'm thinking, I don't know what
we've just witnessed, but everyone is talking about it. I'm
not and by everyone, I mean not just within our world.
It's on national news. It is everywhere. People who don't
(23:59):
watch to women's basketball or telling you about what they
think about these women.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Yeah, it's the kind of thing where you get texts
the next morning like, oh my god, did you watch
that game?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Can you believe what just happened?
Speaker 5 (24:08):
Is that professionally, this isn't what I have to do
to be in person to cover that game.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Oh, Test Conker stuff up?
Speaker 5 (24:16):
Yeah, that was I think that's when the switch flitch.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
After the break, my colleague and host of a Good
Game podcast, Sarah Spain shares her thoughts.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
Having so many conversations with different WNBA players and reporters
over the years, one of the things that was standing
in the way of people embracing the game is just
that it looks a little different than professional men's basketball,
and people who could get hung up on they're not
dunking would choose that as the reason that they didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Appreciate the game back in a moment.
Speaker 6 (24:50):
For a lot of sports radio and sports TV, you
need to have a take. And if you're not watching
a lot of games and you don't know a lot
about the players or the sport.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Take doesn't have any legs. If you can just say
I like Caitlin Clark.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
I don't like Angel Reed, or should women be this competitive?
Or are they trying to take her, you can have
a conversation on your show and you can get people
fired up about it without ever having to do the work.
And that's sometimes a good thing, not for the product
that comes out, but for the coverage coming out of it.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
It was really good for women's.
Speaker 6 (25:24):
College basketball and eventually the WNBA that people had this thing,
this rivalry that they could create takes.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Out of I'm sure you've heard analysts on television say
welcome to the new fans of the WNBA. I'm sure
I've said it many a times, but if I'm honest,
I don't know that much of us really know anything
about these ladies off the court, especially Caitlin Clark. Here's
Sarah Spain of the Good Game podcast.
Speaker 6 (25:50):
All you need to know is she's jacking up shots
from basically half court. She's hitting logo threes on the regular,
and she's doing it in clutch moments, and that alone
opens the door a jar for people to step in
and appreciate her play and then start watching the rest
of the game and say, oh, this is good. But
that was the ultimate sort of backbreaker for that argument
(26:11):
that women weren't worth watching because they couldn't done.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Was like, oh, wait, she's doing something the guys aren't
doing well.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
To that same idea, everyone says she plays like Steph Curry.
She has every Steph Curry I think is arguably one
of the most impactful players in basketball in terms of
his every man's game, and people have called her every
every woman's game if you will, It's very common. It
feels like I can do it. She's a girl next door.
All of these things feel very marketable when you look
(26:36):
at the WNBA, do you feel that's a slight on
the women who've already built this league for so many years.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
I think the.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Way we talk about Caitlin Clark can be in.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
Good faith talking about the ways that she is appealing,
and the same way that we could talk about Steph
Curry being appealing because you felt like watching him, like, oh,
I could do that, which is very different than watching
Michael Jordan Shack or Lebron James. And then there's ways
that we talk about Caitlin Clark that are almost obtuse
with intention so as to disregard the ways that we
(27:09):
haven't respected the existing players in the WNBA over the decades,
particularly players of color, players who are masculine presenting, players
who are openly LGBTQIA plus right. When we are intentional
about promoting and singling out a straight white girl next
door as the face of a league that has been
(27:30):
predominantly black, we have to acknowledge why that's happening. And
if you look across the landscape of women's sports, so
often what has become considered palatable in the eyes of
many who want to place women in specific lanes. Is
the sports that have predominantly white athletes who have esthetically
generally pleasing body types and who we can sort of
(27:55):
infantilize as your little girl all grown up right, just
the perfect little role models had a sit soccer, right,
And those sports are changing by the way, and we're
witnessing and getting through the issues of the changing faces
and representatives for those sports in ways that are worth
discussing too. But in basketball in particular, when you find
that the focus is on Caitlin Clark Paige Becker's Sueer
(28:18):
Bird at the expense of other players, because it's not
to say that they're not deserving, but it is to
say that who else has been contributing at the highest level,
who else is worthy of that praise, those marketing deals,
those sponsorships that we're not paying attention to, and why,
let's be honest about it.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Kitlyn Clark is a game changer and she's brought so
many new eyes to the WNBA. And episode two we
talk to the people who know Kitlyn Clark intimately will
also hear from the game changer herself next time on
Naked Sports.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Who is Kitlyn Clark.
Speaker 10 (28:51):
When you watch her play, her vision and her understanding
of the game, the game is literally slowed down in
her mind, you know, and she sees these passing angles
that even the past or the receiver of the past
doesn't even see, you know, And you're watching in the
stands or on the side of the court, and you
don't always even see it as a coach, you know,
or a fan until it happens. And so just to
(29:13):
see firsthand how she sees the game, and it's kind
of hard to explain because even as we watch her,
you can't get in her mind. But the game is
literally slower for her than other people.
Speaker 7 (29:25):
I mean, I have known Caitlin since she was in
eighth grade. I've been following her. We had been recruiting
her since then because we knew she was such a
special talent. And then it came time for her senior
year and her to make this decision. And she grew
up in a Catholic high school, very strong Catholic family,
and so Notre Dame, of course, was a logical decision
(29:45):
for her to make, but her heart wasn't there. And
she went on her visit and she came home and
was really just didn't feel good about it after she'd
committed to them, and so had somebody call me up
to find out would I still be interested than having her? Well,
of course, so so she did end up calling Notre
Dame and declining and then called me up.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
I can still remember where I was.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
My husband and I were out having dinner. She called
me up and said, if you'd have me, if you
still have a spot available, I'd love to be a Hawkeye.
Speaker 9 (30:17):
And this was my first season doing the women's college game.
And I go back and we're watching a little bit
and I see her pull up thirty five feet or
whatever it was, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this
is just this is crazy. And the ratings are through
the roof, nowhere near where they're at now, but for
that time, shattered records for US on ESPN and that
(30:37):
game was on ABC, and so people are like, oh,
this Kaitlyn Clark player, she's fun whatever. Well, Caitlyn continues
to get better and better, and then her moments become
more and more viral, and all of a sudden you
have people who are seeing clips of her and they're saying,
oh my gosh, who is this they're seeing the insane
no look passes, they're seeing the downpour passes. But more
than anything else at this moment, what they're seeing is
(30:59):
they're seeing someone pull up off the dribble from thirty
thirty five forty feet and just having these incredible performances
to someone who's leading the nation and scoring and assisting
over and over again.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
The mastering of Caylan Clark continues.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
I think that's part of what makes Caitlyn so compelling
to watch is that you can see everything on her face.
She doesn't hide anything. She is incredibly emotional throughout the
course of a game, and that makes her a more
interesting figure on television and in person. But if you're
only tuning in for the national title game, you think, oh,
this poor girl from Iowa is getting bullied by you know,
the big bad alis you girls, which couldn't be farther
(31:37):
from the truth, because, as Caitlyn said repeatedly after the game,
like she'd beenditioned out the same stuff for five previous
games while she was winning. But like you said, the
optics make people uncomfortable, Like there is there's a racial element,
which I mean, we let it slide on the men's side,
right like if a male athlete taunts another male athlete,
doesn't really matter if they're black and white. It's just
two men going at one another. But there was an
(31:58):
extra layer because they're women. Because we don't let women
show their emotions like that in public, they were not
given that same level of grace.
Speaker 11 (32:09):
I remember Kaylyn Clark going viral for like logo threes
and step back threes, and it was like, oh, she
plays like stuff. That's what I was hearing. And I
was like, oh, like, I hadn't seen somebody in a
minute shooting from that deep. I hadn't seen like I've
seen players really good. But logo threes was her thing.
And I was like, Iowa, I don't remember Iowa being good.
(32:30):
And I was like, oh, ls, she was pretty good.
And I remember they beat Iowa, and I know I
remember Kaylyn Clark was really braggadocious like she was she
was doing this, she was she was ah like she
was playing with a lot of emotion, which is cool.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
I love it.
Speaker 11 (32:44):
And then when Angel Rees and them played and Angel
Reese put it back in her face, I was like, okay,
Like this is competition the way I like it. And
then like when I was watching the game. It wasn't
that big. I was like, oh, this is great. She
pointed out a ring. She did all this and then
like I feel like immediately that day it became like
Angel getting called class list and I was like, and
(33:06):
this is for me. It was like here we go again,
because I remember, like Tom Brady, he takes off his
helmet and throws it. He's passionate as Brian does it.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
They got mad at too, Yeah they got mad.
Speaker 11 (33:18):
But they didn't get mad at Tom. Tom is always passionate.
Is he's losing his cool. Odell Beckham loses cool. So
it's it's quite often that black athletes and white athletes
do the same thing and it's looked at very differently.
And with Angel Reese, I was like here we here
we go. Like so as a black person, I'm like, nah,
I got to ride for you because I got to
(33:38):
defend black women. I'm gonna be on your side. So
that's what I remember. Like it become becoming a huge,
huge thing. And I remember they played the next year
and I remember saying, you know, I did make my joke.
I was like, Race War two is happening.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Would Caitlin Clark be such a supernova if there were
no Angel Reese, I don't know, no, no, Who is
Caitlin Clark. That's episode two of Making of a Rivalry.
The Making of a Rivalry Kitlin Clark versus Angel Reese
is a Be Honest production in partnership with the Black
(34:15):
Effect podcast Network in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive
produced by me Kerry Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana,
produced by Jack Vice Thomas Sound Design and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer Olubu Sayle Shabby. Naked Sports is
a part of the Black Effect podcast Network in iHeartMedia.
(34:36):
Hey everybody, if you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to
the podcast, and for those who've been with us since
season one, thank you for Right now. We're kicking off
season four with this six episode docu series that you're
listening to right now, and after that, Naked Sports will
continue to live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture.
We're covering all things from the presidential race to the
(34:57):
WNBA Rookie of the Year contests.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
This season will be bold.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
As you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
our show so very unique.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
We appreciate you for.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Being here, and thank you all for the support. We'll
talk to you next week.
Host
Cari Champion
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