October 14, 2024 • 38 mins
On the season finale of The Making of a Rivalry, Cari interviews Gina Prince - Bythewood, director and screenwriter whose resume includes: The Old Guard, The Woman King and Love and Basketball - a film that centers a Black athlete with dreams of being the first woman to play in the NBA.
Trista Krick, also joins the conversation to discuss what the future holds for the league and the rising stars who are coming.
WNBA players featured at the end of the episode:
Connect: @CariChampion @NakedwithCariChampion
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed to joke her.
And I don't mean to pick to put Angel Reese
in some kind of villain as well, because I don't
consider her a villain.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
But I think every great player needs a foil.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
The reason why we watch that women's basketball is not
just because of one person.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's because of me too. And you know, I don't
think there should be any criticism for what she did.
I honestly didn't see it when the game was going on.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
But the story became more compelling, and the desire to
watch and talk about it became more compelling when she
had a foil.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Angel won a Nashville Championship. She has four million plus followers.
She's at the met gala.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Sizza and Magde Stallion want to come sit courtside and
watch her naked sports.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
The Making of a Rivalry a six episode docuseries that
explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas in Kitlyn
Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion, and
welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. This docuseries focused
on the perceived rivalry of Caitlyn Clark and Angel Reese.
(00:57):
I wanted to show you that rivalry is a good
thing for any sport or industry. I also hope that
I was able to give you some insight into who
Angel and Caitlin are on and off the court. And
I wanted to highlight how America, for better or for worse,
is addicted to a black and white narrative. But above all,
I hope you can see the excellence in the women's game.
(01:19):
It's so important to be seen, especially for women, but
seen in a way that's not only acknowledging our excellence
but also celebrating it because oftentimes, across the board, no
matter the profession, women are not seen or heard. I
would argue as of late, the sport has changed that
perception for women, but more specifically, basketball has changed it.
(01:43):
The WNBA has changed the narrative for women's sports as
an entity. The slogan everybody watches women's sports is no
longer a QTT phrase. But I truly believe everyone watches
women's sports. I believe the world no longer sees women's
sports as an obligation or or something that is politically correct,
but women's sports are now a priority. Nipping at the
(02:05):
coetls of equity and inclusion.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I needed to win, and not just in sports, in
like chess, Monopoly, checkers, I had to win, and if
I didn't win, I was a kid who was throwing
the game, throwing the pieces. I've gotten much better now,
Gina Prince Spie with I'm a writer, director and what's
my resume? Loving Basketball, Secret Life of Bees, Old guard Woman,
(02:30):
King and now upcoming Children of Blood and Boom.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I've seen a few. Gina, thank you for doing this.
I really appreciate you for being here. We have been
trying to with our docu series talk about the way
sports really meets at the intersection of politics, of culture,
of just about anything and when you think about it,
at least for me, one of your early films really
(02:55):
gave me insight into what a female athlete could be.
And I'm really curious about your sports background.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Growing up?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
What sports did you play?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I played everything. I was super fortunate to have parents
who saw the value in girls playing sports because it
was a game changer. I have two older sisters and
younger brother. We were in soccer since I think probably
aged four. Back then, they didn't have girls' leags, so
we had to play with boys, which didn't always go
(03:26):
great because boys didn't like the fact that we were
out there and that we were better than them, So
we got kicked and punched a lot, But my parents said,
just keep going out there. Once I got to middle school,
fell in love with basketball.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
For the last episode of this docu series, we had
a very special guest. I wanted to describe the past,
the present, and the future of the WNBA while also
sharing what I've learned from making up a rivalry, and
for me, there was only one way that I could
do it. There was only one film that envisioned and
centered a woman as a professional basketball player, and that
(04:02):
was Love and Basketball. The last scene where she's playing and.
Speaker 6 (04:07):
Omar's got her kid in his lap and he's cheering
her on courtside.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
That is the dream. That is the dream.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
When we are the ones being celebrated, We are the
center for a league.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Whose story is rarely documented. Love and Basketball would live
in the mind of this creator long before the WNBA
was even a reality. It was a dream for Gina
and I'm sure for many other women who played sports
in high school and in college, all the while excepting
the fact that their love of the game would never
materialize into a professional opportunity, not here in the United
(04:46):
States at least. I hear all the time writers and
director say, I've been working on this for a decade. Yeah,
and it finally came into fruition in terms of bringing
it all together. When did that that love and basketball
concept into your mind.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I feel like it was bubbling while I was in
college because so much of it is autobiographical. But it
wasn't until I graduated and decided that I wanted to
write a screenplay. I knew I wanted to write a
love story. I knew I wanted to write a black
love story because there was nothing for us at all.
(05:22):
And I said, I'm going to write a black Harry
met Sally. That was like my favorite movie at that time.
But what does that mean? And so it really was
that mantra that you're told, like, write what you know,
write something personal is your first thing. And so I
just thought about me and wanting to be the first
film in the NBA and just the way that I
(05:44):
grew up, but also being able to honestly talk about
what it is to be female athlete because there was
no examples at all for me, certainly in film or television.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Genus film, which is autobile biographical to me, represents every
woman who has played, will play and is currently playing
in the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I grew up so often being told I was a
tomboy and something's wrong with me and I'm weird. So
to be able to put a character and celebrate this
character for who she is, that meant a lot to
me because it was really kind of an apology to
myself to be able to put that. And so it's
(06:31):
like these pieces just started coming together, and the beauty
of writing is you get to put so much of yourself.
I mean, my first kiss was that it was ten
seconds on our fingers, but like just real moments like that.
But certainly the way I felt as a girl and
a young woman playing sports, it was beautiful for me
(06:53):
to be able to pour that and as I said,
celebrate her as opposed to being somebody that was made fun.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Of basketball obviously the sport. Is that a metaphor for you?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I don't think it's a metaphor so much as it
was absolutely my north star. It represented everything that I
am today, certainly everything I learned playing ball and how
to be leave it all out on the floor. Ambition
is good, aggression is good, go after it. All these
(07:26):
things that I learned playing ball that I apply to life.
I am so grateful that I had sports growing up,
but because it taught me how to be a woman
in this world and succeed as a woman in this
world because so many of our spaces, of course, are
male dominated. Certainly Hollywood is so to be able to
go in with a swagger that if I didn't have sports,
(07:48):
I would not have that. I don't know how I
could actually move in this industry if I didn't have
that swagger that sports gave me. A great example was
Love and Basketball. My meeting to hopefully get us sold,
because I've said often, I wrote the script to a
year and a half, went out with it, and every
(08:10):
single studio turned it down. Every production company turned it
down like I got crickets, and finally went through the
Sundance program and then New Line Cinema heard about it.
So I had one chance. And I remember sitting outside
of Mike de Luca's office and I was literally shaking,
scared to death, and I was like, I'm gonna choke.
(08:33):
I have this one chance. Finally I'm gonna choke. And
I walked away from the office and I said, where
are you most comfortable? I'm like on the court, all right,
so walk into that room like you're walking on the court.
And that called me. And I walked in there with
my little bop that I have on the court, and
I was a different person. I went from freaking out
(08:54):
to calm and I got this. So yeah, it absolutely
guides me.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
That's a beautiful story because I don't know if many
of us think about where we're most confident, where we excel,
and literally transport yourself to that place whenever you're not
feeling adequate. I believe sport does so much for women
in a world where it takes forever to find our
voice and then feel comfortable in society. When the league
(09:22):
started in nineteen ninety eight, what do you remember about
the WNBA when it started? What do you what were
your earliest memories in terms of the fanfare, the popularity,
the stars, if you will.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I remember that inaugural season. I was so excited that
it was happening. It was it was like a fever dream,
like this is really happening. And then all my favorite players,
Don Staley and least Leslie Shmikua, Cynthia Cooper, Cheryl Swoops
like they all had this place to go and the
games were packed. The excitement was huge. It was just fun.
(09:59):
It was fun. You felt like this thing that we
had wanted for so long had finally happened. But there
was also for me, there was a anxiety of would
it last, which I know a lot of people felt,
but because I felt if this didn't work, it was
never going to come back.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Wow, that's so interesting. How long do you think that
feeling happened. I would say for the first five years.
Maybe people didn't know.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, I mean I would say it went on longer
than that. It felt like the WNBA. After maybe the
first two seasons, you know, the audience started to dip
and there were so many questions about was it going
to continue, and then a couple teams folded. It felt
very precarious, I'm gonna say honestly up until this last year. Wow,
(10:51):
when it exploded again like it did that in an
inaugural year. Interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
This is when you were like, it's here to stay.
So a little I don't think many people would disagree
with that, and we went back and looked there was
so much excitement, especially after the ninety six Olympics, of
what would this be? And you mentioned some of the greats.
I want to tie that back into loving basketball for
my understanding. You interviewed Don Staley, Sheryl Swoops, and Lisa Leslie,
and I think you said Shemika also to be teammates,
(11:20):
to be, to be, to be Monica.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Okay, I don't know, not Monica, though I did. I
did read Marion Jones, who at that time was one
of my heroes as well. She was so she auditioned Wow,
But I knew ultimately I needed an actor, but I
wanted my vision was to have all her teammates be
(11:45):
Litha and Don and all that. But the Olympics fell
right when I was going to shoot, and so I
was able to get them in. I had them all
come in an audition anyway, and it was it was
my opportunity one to meet my heroes, but to just
to talk about basketball, use it as research as well.
And they loved talking about what it was like to
(12:07):
go overseas when they didn't have the WNBA, What did
that feel like? And so that authenticity was everything to me.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
If you were too right, love and basketball today. What
would it look like? Would it still be that same
love story?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Wow? You know what's interesting? I think the saddest thing
is as hard as it was to get it made.
And I don't know that I could get it made
today unless it was on Netflix. So I want to
start there. But how would it be different? Let me
be honest, I don't think I would change. I don't
(12:44):
think it would change. I think the only element I
would probably add it was made in this moment is
nil and how that's changed the game, and also the
racial component and how because it's been so amplified, what
do you mean by that? Like it's always there's always
been an underlying feeling about that, but this year it
(13:06):
was very obvious who was getting amplified as d Star,
as the second Coming. And that's not to take anything
away from Caitlyn. She's dope, she's a baller, and the
pressure that was on her and she succeeded anyway, Like
I'm a fan, but there were also other folks coming
(13:26):
in and people who have been there grinding and being amazing,
but also the way that you know, Angel and Caitlin
were pitted against each other in that game, it was
so racial it was so obvious, and these folk who
had never even cared about the WNBA all all of
a sudden had something to say because it actually wasn't
(13:47):
even about the WNBA. It was about they had a
space now for their racism and their sexism. So that's
been really tough. And even who's getting the endorsements and
there I won't name the pro but it was really
surprising to me to see this product advertised and it
(14:08):
was a group of five women, and the woman that
was in the center was a white woman, and then
the sisters were on the sides, and that white woman
is a rookie, not Caitlyn. It was somebody else. But
I saw that. It was so glaring to me because
the people around her are amazing ballplayers, So why did
(14:30):
it happen?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Centering the white narrative has been very very much point
of discussion, especially in a w NBA, especially based on
what you just said. But I want to go back
to the amplification and I'll just I'll focus on that word.
Cannie Parker was in two thousand and eight the Rookie
of the Year and MVP, but the amplification for her
(14:53):
was not there, not in the way in which it
was for Caitlyn. When you look at your work, I
feel like there are similar stories. Love in basketball, greatest
of all time? Go did right? The Woman King? I
never The Woman King came out after COVID. Post COVID,
(15:15):
I never wanted to go to the movie theaters again.
And I'm giving you my experience, me and seven of
my girlfriends wearing King hats, Burger King hats. She bought
us some Burger King hats. They better pay for our
ad and we put them on our heads.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And we sat in that movie theater and we laughed
and we cried, and we were inspired, and we left
filling so much pride. One of my girlfriends bought her
daughter too, and she was just locked in with us.
And the message was there were so many messages. I
could watch it over and over again, but it broke
(15:55):
my heart to not see that film be amplif in
a way that it deserved. He articulated it very carefully,
and I think, honestly, the lack of not acknowledging our excellence,
how did that make you feel?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
It was? It was I'm not gonna lie with that.
They was surreal to have that happen, though, given the
history of the Academy, given the history of our country,
I shouldn't have been surprised because it happens across every medium,
(16:37):
every element of our life. There is a lack of
acknowledgment of our excellence. We don't get the assumption of
excellence that others do. And so it wasn't for me.
It was bigger than of the film didn't get recognized
because across the board, the work of my cost steam designer,
(17:01):
you know, my actors, Viola, my editor. These are all
black women who did incredible work. The hair and makeup
just next level work that was just ignored. So it
was like every single element of the film was not recognized.
And that's that's what was so disheartening, because that's so
(17:22):
many black women doing excellent work and that work being ignored.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
You.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I think of Viola talking about the way she trained
and even the way those women trained, and I was
like to me that in itself they were athletes. You
were giving them this opportunity and then the acting was
just on another level. I I don't want to put
my frustration on you, because I think that we all
(17:49):
have experienced that in the marginalized community where we feel
like our work is not being acknowledged properly and or
given it's just due. And with this perceived rivalry that
we have been talking about in this docuseries, there was
this idea that Angel was the villain and that Caitlin
(18:12):
Clark was America's darling. Yeah, and in my mind should
have been Angel Reese's crowning achievement winning a nation, winning
the natty A National championship. She had to defend her character,
not for words she said, but just because she actually won.
And she trash talk because to me, that is a
(18:33):
rite of passage. You lose I get to trash talk.
Is this the right of passage? When you consume that story?
When you read that story, did it were there any
parallels for you in Hollywood?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I mean, foremost when that happened, it was shocking the
vitriol coming from grown men to this young black woman,
like literally, I'm social and I'm there podcasts and calling
her names, and it was it was as if there
(19:07):
was no humanity shown to hers. She's twenty twenty one
years old and you're the name calling and the hate
that you're putting on her. And thus putting out in
the world and that's making it acceptable to pile on her.
It was shocking to me. And props to Shack who
(19:27):
came out real quick to try and shut that down.
Jamel Hill came out super quick. But it is, it is.
It was so hard to watch. And yet because I
think all of us, as black women, at some point
in their lives have felt that and so you you know,
(19:49):
you want to protect Angel but also that it wasn't
it was so strange. It wasn't just she was getting
it from everybody.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
It's a difference between being a foil and then having
everyone root against you. I don't mind the rivalry. I
think it's good for the sport, but when everyone is
rooting against you, that's more than that. Because if they
when they do the comparisons to Larry and Larry Bird
and Magic Johnson, people were rooting for Larry, people were
rooting for Magic. It was it was fair. We now
(20:21):
now the narrative when you think of and this is
why the comparisons are similar but not fair in the
sense of social because there is no humanity for for angelries. Yeah,
and I feel that's that is a feeling across the
board when we talk about refusing to acknowledge our excellence.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But also it's because she had the audacity to to
show swagger, to believe in herself. How dare to trash
talk's dare? And that's the thing. Also, we not only
do people not recognize our excellence, but when we dare
to to acknowledge our own excellence, then you're immediately slapped down.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Being in the WNBA is not a lucrative gig. It's
purely for the love of the game, which is why
it's so hard to understand why there is any hatred
towards these women. When making of rivalry returns, we talk
about the love of basketball.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Think about the liberty. I give such props to Claire
Wu who took it over just a couple of years ago.
They were playing at the Westchester Community Center, Like, why
would anyone do that with nobody coming and floors that
were that you know when it rained, it would get
flooded and it's warped, and no one's there, no one's
(21:45):
cheering for you. But you show up and you're balling
out and you're given everything. Now I love it because
you go to the Barclay Center and it's packed every
game back in the moment.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
When you see these women on the court, they are
at home. They are their most authentic, pure selves. Basketball
is their art, as filmmaking is genius. What is that love?
What is that love of basketball? Feel like?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's interesting because I sometimes say that female ball players
love it more because of everything that you just said.
You are playing strictly for the love of the game,
because there are no you're not getting accolades, you're not
getting fame, you're not getting money. In fact, it's a
(22:41):
sacrifice to play. But that feeling, the feeling on the court,
the feeling of like breaking someone's ankles, hitting that shot,
playing defense, getting a steal, it's like you it's it's
(23:02):
like on that court you can be your true self.
There's such joy in for the moment, being able to
feel like the best person, the joy of collectively you
and your teammates coming together, being in a war. And
that's what it feels like on the court, like you're
(23:23):
in a battle, you're war. That feeling it's an amazing high,
and then you step off the court and it dissipates.
But for that moment it is I think it's just
chasing that high chasing that high, and once you've tasted it,
it's like you can't let it go. And so I
just think, Yeah, any chance that you have to play,
(23:47):
you're gonna you're gonna take it as hard as it is.
I feel such like it's emotional to think about those
women just in the span of two years, how their
lives has changed. I'm grateful for everything that's happened, because
so many women have grinded in the shadows and been
(24:09):
excellent in the shadows. I wonder how they feel. Honestly
looking at what it is now is a bittersweet.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, right, like, especially those who are coming to the
end of their career, right Like, I want to celebrate
and this is just from some reporting. Yes I'm celebrating
where we are, but did it really need to take
this long?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Conversely, do you also? Can you also relate to that
when you were trying to get your projects done, feeling like,
look at all I did, and this is this is
the this is what I get in return? Obviously the
fans will love you and hold you down, but what
(24:53):
I And let me ask the question another way, Do
you do it for the luck?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Obviously it's not you know, like the w NBA in
terms of you know, not being able to you know,
have chartered flights and back, but there is this lack
of when you give your you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, No, my journey in this industry, in the work
that they do in both centering us but also centering
black women, those are the hardest films to get made.
And I am forever humbled. Spike with this says, to
be humble the fact that Love and Basketball is still
(25:38):
around after all these years. But there were years on
years of doing work but not really being acknowledged for it.
And it's strange until The Old Guard, which I did,
which amazing, yes, but it only it didn't the leads.
(26:00):
Only one that leaves was black. That was the first
time I got foreign press, and what was shocking to
me is how many spoke about Love and Basketball when
I was told my whole life that my films don't travel,
nobody cares about them outside of America. I had no
idea until The Old Guard, which was what twenty twenty one.
(26:26):
I had no idea but to do all the films
I did, but never have a budget like that, never
have the respect. During the press process, it was a
stunning and very It was very telling. But once you
have a taste of that, it's the thing you're not
going to go back. So being able to take that
(26:47):
energy into the Woman King and go back to centering
black women in this story that hadn't been told, Like
I was going to fight for that, and that's what
it has been. I've been in a sustain and fight
for the last thirty years to tell these stories. But
sports gave me that fight.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Amen. Now you're like, look, I get extra wacamole every
time I go to Chipotle. Y'all cannot be trying to
say I can extra brocamole. This is what it is.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I did our guard and it was it okay. And
if you don't want to give me this extra quaalk,
you got a problem. Do you ever think that there
is a space and time in our in our culture
and our community and politics and sport that the audacity
of sharing our excellence won't be met with vitriol? Or
(27:35):
will there always be this hesitation and I'm talking about
black women when we're centering black women, will there always
be this hesitation to take the high road? Like when
they go low, you know, we go hi shout out
to Michelle. I don't know if I always go high though,
but yeah, we.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
We have the most excellent candidate for president and she
is being questioned constantly. We we have so far to go.
(28:12):
It's just it's real. She has to win. That will help.
But watching her journey, so many of us know exactly
what it is because we feel it. Our talent in question,
our our space, the fact the spaces that we want
to be in is questioned. The fact that I love
(28:35):
the thing that she said the other day. We don't
aspire to be humble like I dug that, and that's
you know, obviously the women in WNBA, there's so much
trash talking and they get slammed for it, you know,
So it is a I there's so far to go,
(28:57):
But what's important is the conversations to call it out
and then for you know, people who are benefiting from
it need to stand up and be loud. Pagebeckers like
love her.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
She can do no she I really I'm hoping she
uses her voice in such a powerful way, and she
already has.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
The SPS as a white woman who leads a black
lead sport and celebrated here. I want to show a
light on black women, they don't get the media coverage
that they deserve.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
So I think it's time for change. Change. So we
know when she's coming in and hopefully she'll go the sparks. Yeah,
and we know she's going to continue to be that
vocal and it's important you have to shut that down.
But yeah, we got a long way to go. We
have a really long way to go. Can we have
(29:50):
to be together?
Speaker 5 (29:52):
We have?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I mean, I love that you're talking about with the angel.
What you're talking about is you're being honest about it,
but you're also supportive of her, you know, and we
just we need that support amongst each other more than ever.
And you know, it's interesting, like I didn't even see
a friend of mine sent me you know, Asia was
(30:13):
on a podcast, Oh bad Mouth and Love and Basketball.
It was like everyone can have their opinion. It's like
you can absolutely have your opinion. What surprised me was
how far she went, you know, about something and a
film that's meant so much to black girls and black women,
the fact that there's a black woman behind it. You know,
(30:35):
I think I just hope that she forgot about that.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
When Making of a Rivalry returns, the league has come
a very long way, but there's still more work to do.
We look ahead at what's the future of the WNBA.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Once you have a transcendent star like Jordan, Now we
can get the staffs, Now we can get the Lebron
and I think that's what's going to happen. So Page
is next, and then Juju, and Juju could be the
biggest star of them all, like Juju getting this shoe
deal as the biggest shoe deal for a women's basketball
player in the history of the game. As a sophomore
(31:12):
at USC, when you think about like USC basketball, I
always think about loving basketball and snihlight thin and just
like me as a kid wanting to hoop.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And that's great too.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
So what we're going to see I think moving forward.
And then Malaysia full Wiley, who's nasty, also like she's
going to come into the league and be awesome.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
So you're gonna have this new group.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
Of WNBA players and they all like each other back
in a moment. I'm a host and a content creator
in the Basketball Space podcast name is the.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Heat Check with Christi Crik. I just talked to you
about basketball.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Make fun of things, make fun of people, make fun
of places.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Tristan is a personality that has a very unique but
I believe spot on take of the league's future and
it's player. But when you think of this new crop
of rookies, how would you describe their personalities? And I'm
i'm and I'm specifically talking to obviously about the Angel
Reeses and the Caitlin Clarks and the Camilla Cardoso's, Like
how how did they enter the league as opposed to
(32:13):
what you've seen when you look.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
At with this new generation, is its post nil, right?
And so post nil. They're coming into the league with money,
They're coming into the league with followings and audience of
their own.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
They're coming into the league with brand deals.
Speaker 6 (32:30):
They're coming into the league loud and proud and unapologetic.
And I think that causes a lot of unintentional consequences
with the older generation of w NBA players who have
had to fight and claw and scratch for every shred
(32:51):
of attention, every dollar, everything, and they've had to make
decisions to sacrifice who they were and in order to
continue to keep those things as a possibility. And this
is like a new generation of workers, right, Like you've
got a new generation that says no, I'm not going
to just do what you tell me to do how
(33:14):
you tell me to do it, because I can go
and access this million followers and monetize that on my own.
So what you're seeing is like league fits.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
You're seeing this the tongue out.
Speaker 6 (33:26):
You're seeing almost a backlash to traditional female in the
workforce kind of a thing, and that's caused all kinds
of good things for the league and some friction in
the league.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I think along with these new players and their new money,
they bring the new fans just to says the league
used to be an exclusive party. Everybody did not watch
women's sports, and that's okay, but now it's general admission.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
I think about the WNBA like a party, right, and
the party's been very curated and selective, and it's been poppin'.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And Caitlyn comes.
Speaker 6 (34:01):
In and she's Middle America, right, and she's bringing new
folks to the party. So I think for those who
also have been around this fort a long time, we
have to give grace too. We can't allow the nonsense
in the books, but we also have to know, like
we want the league to grow, so these women who
can get paid don't have to go overseas and end
up in a prison because they weren't making a living wage.
(34:25):
Like we want this league to grow, but there's going
to be growing pains, and sometimes a broad mainstream fan
base brings things that we don't really feel comfortable with
because we've been all like minded in a way where
we accept everybody.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
But as our vice president Kamala Harris would say, we
ain't going back love in basketball. While I use that
film as an example and I see the parallels currently
in the WNBA, I really want the last word to
be given to the women of the league. This is
my life letter to you all. You've worked so hard.
(35:04):
We've watched you grind, We've watched you demand respect and dignity,
and now you receive it because you deserve it. This
is for the women who built this league. Lisa Leslie,
Don Staley, Cheryl Swoops, Cynthia Cooper, Maya Moore, Candice Parker.
(35:26):
We thank you, ladies, for what you have given us.
We thank you for what you have built. We thank
you for the excellence because we see it and we
honor it. The league is in a beautiful place, and
I want to thank the ladies of the past. The
ladies of the present and the ladies who are coming.
We in this docu series with the love letter if
(35:48):
you Will, That's why we chose love in basketball. We
saw the parallels. But when we really truly want to
find out what the future of the league will be,
we should let the ladies answer that question. We thank
you for what you've given us, and we can't wait
to have more, even.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
More slowed out crowds, so many of your people coming
to the games.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
I love where we are right now.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
We just continue to girl.
Speaker 7 (36:10):
I can't say, well it'll be in five years, but
I know that tennis is gonna be higher.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
The money will go up.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
We have a new CBA coming up coming up in
twenty twenty five, so I'm this my loven year in
the league. The growth, the game's gonna grow, and I
think like the biggest thing is just a salary cap,
Like we're actually gonna get the money we deserve. We
just is it gonna take some more years, but it's coming.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
I love this league and I think that when the
next CBA comes around, they're gonna do the right thing.
And it's not gonna be perfect, it's not gonna be
where we want it all the way, but with growth
comes paying and vice versus. So I think really good
things are gonna come out of this.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
If I could predict the future, I think it'll be
on the same level as the NBA in terms of pay,
in terms of salaries, in terms of opportunities, marketability, all
that kind of stuff, accessibility, everything.
Speaker 7 (36:49):
I agree it'd be on the same standard just be basketball.
I think it's so many first first social women's basketball,
but I think and the few to who need a
standard regarding hall at basketball and if people are gonna
be like you mean, men's or woman, so this leek
is going.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
To go through the roof and out of everybody.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
It's ready.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
It's a ready, It's ready.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
The making of a rivalry. Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese
is a Be Honest production in partnership with the Black
Effect podcast Network. In iHeart Women's Sports, Written and executive
produced by me Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana,
produced by Jocksvice Thomas, sound design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford.
Associate producer olablusayl Shabby Naked Sports is a part of
(37:25):
the Black Effect Podcast Network. In iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Hey everybody.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
If you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast,
and for those who've been with us since season one,
thank you for right now. We're kicking off season four
with this six episode docu series that you're listening to
right now, and after that, Naked Sports will continue to
live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. We're
covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA
(37:52):
Rookie of the Year contests. This season will be bold,
as you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
our show so very unique.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
We appreciate you for.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Being here and thank you all for the support. We'll
talk to you next week.
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed to joke her.
And I don't mean to pick to put Angel Reese
in some kind of villain as well, because I don't
consider her a villain.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
But I think every great player needs a foil.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
The reason why we watch that women's basketball is not
just because of one person.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's because of me too. And you know, I don't
think there should be any criticism for what she did.
I honestly didn't see it when the game was going on.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
But the story became more compelling, and the desire to
watch and talk about it became more compelling when she
had a foil.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Angel won a Nashville Championship. She has four million plus followers.
She's at the met gala.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Sizza and Magde Stallion want to come sit courtside and
watch her naked sports.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
The Making of a Rivalry a six episode docuseries that
explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas in Kitlyn
Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion, and
welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. This docuseries focused
on the perceived rivalry of Caitlyn Clark and Angel Reese.
(00:57):
I wanted to show you that rivalry is a good
thing for any sport or industry. I also hope that
I was able to give you some insight into who
Angel and Caitlin are on and off the court. And
I wanted to highlight how America, for better or for worse,
is addicted to a black and white narrative. But above all,
I hope you can see the excellence in the women's game.
(01:19):
It's so important to be seen, especially for women, but
seen in a way that's not only acknowledging our excellence
but also celebrating it because oftentimes, across the board, no
matter the profession, women are not seen or heard. I
would argue as of late, the sport has changed that
perception for women, but more specifically, basketball has changed it.
(01:43):
The WNBA has changed the narrative for women's sports as
an entity. The slogan everybody watches women's sports is no
longer a QTT phrase. But I truly believe everyone watches
women's sports. I believe the world no longer sees women's
sports as an obligation or or something that is politically correct,
but women's sports are now a priority. Nipping at the
(02:05):
coetls of equity and inclusion.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I needed to win, and not just in sports, in
like chess, Monopoly, checkers, I had to win, and if
I didn't win, I was a kid who was throwing
the game, throwing the pieces. I've gotten much better now,
Gina Prince Spie with I'm a writer, director and what's
my resume? Loving Basketball, Secret Life of Bees, Old guard Woman,
(02:30):
King and now upcoming Children of Blood and Boom.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I've seen a few. Gina, thank you for doing this.
I really appreciate you for being here. We have been
trying to with our docu series talk about the way
sports really meets at the intersection of politics, of culture,
of just about anything and when you think about it,
at least for me, one of your early films really
(02:55):
gave me insight into what a female athlete could be.
And I'm really curious about your sports background.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Growing up?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
What sports did you play?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I played everything. I was super fortunate to have parents
who saw the value in girls playing sports because it
was a game changer. I have two older sisters and
younger brother. We were in soccer since I think probably
aged four. Back then, they didn't have girls' leags, so
we had to play with boys, which didn't always go
(03:26):
great because boys didn't like the fact that we were
out there and that we were better than them, So
we got kicked and punched a lot, But my parents said,
just keep going out there. Once I got to middle school,
fell in love with basketball.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
For the last episode of this docu series, we had
a very special guest. I wanted to describe the past,
the present, and the future of the WNBA while also
sharing what I've learned from making up a rivalry, and
for me, there was only one way that I could
do it. There was only one film that envisioned and
centered a woman as a professional basketball player, and that
(04:02):
was Love and Basketball. The last scene where she's playing and.
Speaker 6 (04:07):
Omar's got her kid in his lap and he's cheering
her on courtside.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
That is the dream. That is the dream.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
When we are the ones being celebrated, We are the
center for a league.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Whose story is rarely documented. Love and Basketball would live
in the mind of this creator long before the WNBA
was even a reality. It was a dream for Gina
and I'm sure for many other women who played sports
in high school and in college, all the while excepting
the fact that their love of the game would never
materialize into a professional opportunity, not here in the United
(04:46):
States at least. I hear all the time writers and
director say, I've been working on this for a decade. Yeah,
and it finally came into fruition in terms of bringing
it all together. When did that that love and basketball
concept into your mind.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I feel like it was bubbling while I was in
college because so much of it is autobiographical. But it
wasn't until I graduated and decided that I wanted to
write a screenplay. I knew I wanted to write a
love story. I knew I wanted to write a black
love story because there was nothing for us at all.
(05:22):
And I said, I'm going to write a black Harry
met Sally. That was like my favorite movie at that time.
But what does that mean? And so it really was
that mantra that you're told, like, write what you know,
write something personal is your first thing. And so I
just thought about me and wanting to be the first
film in the NBA and just the way that I
(05:44):
grew up, but also being able to honestly talk about
what it is to be female athlete because there was
no examples at all for me, certainly in film or television.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Genus film, which is autobile biographical to me, represents every
woman who has played, will play and is currently playing
in the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I grew up so often being told I was a
tomboy and something's wrong with me and I'm weird. So
to be able to put a character and celebrate this
character for who she is, that meant a lot to
me because it was really kind of an apology to
myself to be able to put that. And so it's
(06:31):
like these pieces just started coming together, and the beauty
of writing is you get to put so much of yourself.
I mean, my first kiss was that it was ten
seconds on our fingers, but like just real moments like that.
But certainly the way I felt as a girl and
a young woman playing sports, it was beautiful for me
(06:53):
to be able to pour that and as I said,
celebrate her as opposed to being somebody that was made fun.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Of basketball obviously the sport. Is that a metaphor for you?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I don't think it's a metaphor so much as it
was absolutely my north star. It represented everything that I
am today, certainly everything I learned playing ball and how
to be leave it all out on the floor. Ambition
is good, aggression is good, go after it. All these
(07:26):
things that I learned playing ball that I apply to life.
I am so grateful that I had sports growing up,
but because it taught me how to be a woman
in this world and succeed as a woman in this
world because so many of our spaces, of course, are
male dominated. Certainly Hollywood is so to be able to
go in with a swagger that if I didn't have sports,
(07:48):
I would not have that. I don't know how I
could actually move in this industry if I didn't have
that swagger that sports gave me. A great example was
Love and Basketball. My meeting to hopefully get us sold,
because I've said often, I wrote the script to a
year and a half, went out with it, and every
(08:10):
single studio turned it down. Every production company turned it
down like I got crickets, and finally went through the
Sundance program and then New Line Cinema heard about it.
So I had one chance. And I remember sitting outside
of Mike de Luca's office and I was literally shaking,
scared to death, and I was like, I'm gonna choke.
(08:33):
I have this one chance. Finally I'm gonna choke. And
I walked away from the office and I said, where
are you most comfortable? I'm like on the court, all right,
so walk into that room like you're walking on the court.
And that called me. And I walked in there with
my little bop that I have on the court, and
I was a different person. I went from freaking out
(08:54):
to calm and I got this. So yeah, it absolutely
guides me.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
That's a beautiful story because I don't know if many
of us think about where we're most confident, where we excel,
and literally transport yourself to that place whenever you're not
feeling adequate. I believe sport does so much for women
in a world where it takes forever to find our
voice and then feel comfortable in society. When the league
(09:22):
started in nineteen ninety eight, what do you remember about
the WNBA when it started? What do you what were
your earliest memories in terms of the fanfare, the popularity,
the stars, if you will.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I remember that inaugural season. I was so excited that
it was happening. It was it was like a fever dream,
like this is really happening. And then all my favorite players,
Don Staley and least Leslie Shmikua, Cynthia Cooper, Cheryl Swoops
like they all had this place to go and the
games were packed. The excitement was huge. It was just fun.
(09:59):
It was fun. You felt like this thing that we
had wanted for so long had finally happened. But there
was also for me, there was a anxiety of would
it last, which I know a lot of people felt,
but because I felt if this didn't work, it was
never going to come back.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Wow, that's so interesting. How long do you think that
feeling happened. I would say for the first five years.
Maybe people didn't know.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, I mean I would say it went on longer
than that. It felt like the WNBA. After maybe the
first two seasons, you know, the audience started to dip
and there were so many questions about was it going
to continue, and then a couple teams folded. It felt
very precarious, I'm gonna say honestly up until this last year. Wow,
(10:51):
when it exploded again like it did that in an
inaugural year. Interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
This is when you were like, it's here to stay.
So a little I don't think many people would disagree
with that, and we went back and looked there was
so much excitement, especially after the ninety six Olympics, of
what would this be? And you mentioned some of the greats.
I want to tie that back into loving basketball for
my understanding. You interviewed Don Staley, Sheryl Swoops, and Lisa Leslie,
and I think you said Shemika also to be teammates,
(11:20):
to be, to be, to be Monica.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Okay, I don't know, not Monica, though I did. I
did read Marion Jones, who at that time was one
of my heroes as well. She was so she auditioned Wow,
But I knew ultimately I needed an actor, but I
wanted my vision was to have all her teammates be
(11:45):
Litha and Don and all that. But the Olympics fell
right when I was going to shoot, and so I
was able to get them in. I had them all
come in an audition anyway, and it was it was
my opportunity one to meet my heroes, but to just
to talk about basketball, use it as research as well.
And they loved talking about what it was like to
(12:07):
go overseas when they didn't have the WNBA, What did
that feel like? And so that authenticity was everything to me.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
If you were too right, love and basketball today. What
would it look like? Would it still be that same
love story?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Wow? You know what's interesting? I think the saddest thing
is as hard as it was to get it made.
And I don't know that I could get it made
today unless it was on Netflix. So I want to
start there. But how would it be different? Let me
be honest, I don't think I would change. I don't
(12:44):
think it would change. I think the only element I
would probably add it was made in this moment is
nil and how that's changed the game, and also the
racial component and how because it's been so amplified, what
do you mean by that? Like it's always there's always
been an underlying feeling about that, but this year it
(13:06):
was very obvious who was getting amplified as d Star,
as the second Coming. And that's not to take anything
away from Caitlyn. She's dope, she's a baller, and the
pressure that was on her and she succeeded anyway, Like
I'm a fan, but there were also other folks coming
(13:26):
in and people who have been there grinding and being amazing,
but also the way that you know, Angel and Caitlin
were pitted against each other in that game, it was
so racial it was so obvious, and these folk who
had never even cared about the WNBA all all of
a sudden had something to say because it actually wasn't
(13:47):
even about the WNBA. It was about they had a
space now for their racism and their sexism. So that's
been really tough. And even who's getting the endorsements and
there I won't name the pro but it was really
surprising to me to see this product advertised and it
(14:08):
was a group of five women, and the woman that
was in the center was a white woman, and then
the sisters were on the sides, and that white woman
is a rookie, not Caitlyn. It was somebody else. But
I saw that. It was so glaring to me because
the people around her are amazing ballplayers, So why did
(14:30):
it happen?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Centering the white narrative has been very very much point
of discussion, especially in a w NBA, especially based on
what you just said. But I want to go back
to the amplification and I'll just I'll focus on that word.
Cannie Parker was in two thousand and eight the Rookie
of the Year and MVP, but the amplification for her
(14:53):
was not there, not in the way in which it
was for Caitlyn. When you look at your work, I
feel like there are similar stories. Love in basketball, greatest
of all time? Go did right? The Woman King? I
never The Woman King came out after COVID. Post COVID,
(15:15):
I never wanted to go to the movie theaters again.
And I'm giving you my experience, me and seven of
my girlfriends wearing King hats, Burger King hats. She bought
us some Burger King hats. They better pay for our
ad and we put them on our heads.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And we sat in that movie theater and we laughed
and we cried, and we were inspired, and we left
filling so much pride. One of my girlfriends bought her
daughter too, and she was just locked in with us.
And the message was there were so many messages. I
could watch it over and over again, but it broke
(15:55):
my heart to not see that film be amplif in
a way that it deserved. He articulated it very carefully,
and I think, honestly, the lack of not acknowledging our excellence,
how did that make you feel?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
It was? It was I'm not gonna lie with that.
They was surreal to have that happen, though, given the
history of the Academy, given the history of our country,
I shouldn't have been surprised because it happens across every medium,
(16:37):
every element of our life. There is a lack of
acknowledgment of our excellence. We don't get the assumption of
excellence that others do. And so it wasn't for me.
It was bigger than of the film didn't get recognized
because across the board, the work of my cost steam designer,
(17:01):
you know, my actors, Viola, my editor. These are all
black women who did incredible work. The hair and makeup
just next level work that was just ignored. So it
was like every single element of the film was not recognized.
And that's that's what was so disheartening, because that's so
(17:22):
many black women doing excellent work and that work being ignored.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
You.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I think of Viola talking about the way she trained
and even the way those women trained, and I was
like to me that in itself they were athletes. You
were giving them this opportunity and then the acting was
just on another level. I I don't want to put
my frustration on you, because I think that we all
(17:49):
have experienced that in the marginalized community where we feel
like our work is not being acknowledged properly and or
given it's just due. And with this perceived rivalry that
we have been talking about in this docuseries, there was
this idea that Angel was the villain and that Caitlin
(18:12):
Clark was America's darling. Yeah, and in my mind should
have been Angel Reese's crowning achievement winning a nation, winning
the natty A National championship. She had to defend her character,
not for words she said, but just because she actually won.
And she trash talk because to me, that is a
(18:33):
rite of passage. You lose I get to trash talk.
Is this the right of passage? When you consume that story?
When you read that story, did it were there any
parallels for you in Hollywood?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I mean, foremost when that happened, it was shocking the
vitriol coming from grown men to this young black woman,
like literally, I'm social and I'm there podcasts and calling
her names, and it was it was as if there
(19:07):
was no humanity shown to hers. She's twenty twenty one
years old and you're the name calling and the hate
that you're putting on her. And thus putting out in
the world and that's making it acceptable to pile on her.
It was shocking to me. And props to Shack who
(19:27):
came out real quick to try and shut that down.
Jamel Hill came out super quick. But it is, it is.
It was so hard to watch. And yet because I
think all of us, as black women, at some point
in their lives have felt that and so you you know,
(19:49):
you want to protect Angel but also that it wasn't
it was so strange. It wasn't just she was getting
it from everybody.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
It's a difference between being a foil and then having
everyone root against you. I don't mind the rivalry. I
think it's good for the sport, but when everyone is
rooting against you, that's more than that. Because if they
when they do the comparisons to Larry and Larry Bird
and Magic Johnson, people were rooting for Larry, people were
rooting for Magic. It was it was fair. We now
(20:21):
now the narrative when you think of and this is
why the comparisons are similar but not fair in the
sense of social because there is no humanity for for angelries. Yeah,
and I feel that's that is a feeling across the
board when we talk about refusing to acknowledge our excellence.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But also it's because she had the audacity to to
show swagger, to believe in herself. How dare to trash
talk's dare? And that's the thing. Also, we not only
do people not recognize our excellence, but when we dare
to to acknowledge our own excellence, then you're immediately slapped down.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Being in the WNBA is not a lucrative gig. It's
purely for the love of the game, which is why
it's so hard to understand why there is any hatred
towards these women. When making of rivalry returns, we talk
about the love of basketball.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Think about the liberty. I give such props to Claire
Wu who took it over just a couple of years ago.
They were playing at the Westchester Community Center, Like, why
would anyone do that with nobody coming and floors that
were that you know when it rained, it would get
flooded and it's warped, and no one's there, no one's
(21:45):
cheering for you. But you show up and you're balling
out and you're given everything. Now I love it because
you go to the Barclay Center and it's packed every
game back in the moment.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
When you see these women on the court, they are
at home. They are their most authentic, pure selves. Basketball
is their art, as filmmaking is genius. What is that love?
What is that love of basketball? Feel like?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's interesting because I sometimes say that female ball players
love it more because of everything that you just said.
You are playing strictly for the love of the game,
because there are no you're not getting accolades, you're not
getting fame, you're not getting money. In fact, it's a
(22:41):
sacrifice to play. But that feeling, the feeling on the court,
the feeling of like breaking someone's ankles, hitting that shot,
playing defense, getting a steal, it's like you it's it's
(23:02):
like on that court you can be your true self.
There's such joy in for the moment, being able to
feel like the best person, the joy of collectively you
and your teammates coming together, being in a war. And
that's what it feels like on the court, like you're
(23:23):
in a battle, you're war. That feeling it's an amazing high,
and then you step off the court and it dissipates.
But for that moment it is I think it's just
chasing that high chasing that high, and once you've tasted it,
it's like you can't let it go. And so I
just think, Yeah, any chance that you have to play,
(23:47):
you're gonna you're gonna take it as hard as it is.
I feel such like it's emotional to think about those
women just in the span of two years, how their
lives has changed. I'm grateful for everything that's happened, because
so many women have grinded in the shadows and been
(24:09):
excellent in the shadows. I wonder how they feel. Honestly
looking at what it is now is a bittersweet.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, right, like, especially those who are coming to the
end of their career, right Like, I want to celebrate
and this is just from some reporting. Yes I'm celebrating
where we are, but did it really need to take
this long?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Conversely, do you also? Can you also relate to that
when you were trying to get your projects done, feeling like,
look at all I did, and this is this is
the this is what I get in return? Obviously the
fans will love you and hold you down, but what
(24:53):
I And let me ask the question another way, Do
you do it for the luck?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Obviously it's not you know, like the w NBA in
terms of you know, not being able to you know,
have chartered flights and back, but there is this lack
of when you give your you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, No, my journey in this industry, in the work
that they do in both centering us but also centering
black women, those are the hardest films to get made.
And I am forever humbled. Spike with this says, to
be humble the fact that Love and Basketball is still
(25:38):
around after all these years. But there were years on
years of doing work but not really being acknowledged for it.
And it's strange until The Old Guard, which I did,
which amazing, yes, but it only it didn't the leads.
(26:00):
Only one that leaves was black. That was the first
time I got foreign press, and what was shocking to
me is how many spoke about Love and Basketball when
I was told my whole life that my films don't travel,
nobody cares about them outside of America. I had no
idea until The Old Guard, which was what twenty twenty one.
(26:26):
I had no idea but to do all the films
I did, but never have a budget like that, never
have the respect. During the press process, it was a
stunning and very It was very telling. But once you
have a taste of that, it's the thing you're not
going to go back. So being able to take that
(26:47):
energy into the Woman King and go back to centering
black women in this story that hadn't been told, Like
I was going to fight for that, and that's what
it has been. I've been in a sustain and fight
for the last thirty years to tell these stories. But
sports gave me that fight.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Amen. Now you're like, look, I get extra wacamole every
time I go to Chipotle. Y'all cannot be trying to
say I can extra brocamole. This is what it is.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I did our guard and it was it okay. And
if you don't want to give me this extra quaalk,
you got a problem. Do you ever think that there
is a space and time in our in our culture
and our community and politics and sport that the audacity
of sharing our excellence won't be met with vitriol? Or
(27:35):
will there always be this hesitation and I'm talking about
black women when we're centering black women, will there always
be this hesitation to take the high road? Like when
they go low, you know, we go hi shout out
to Michelle. I don't know if I always go high though,
but yeah, we.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
We have the most excellent candidate for president and she
is being questioned constantly. We we have so far to go.
(28:12):
It's just it's real. She has to win. That will help.
But watching her journey, so many of us know exactly
what it is because we feel it. Our talent in question,
our our space, the fact the spaces that we want
to be in is questioned. The fact that I love
(28:35):
the thing that she said the other day. We don't
aspire to be humble like I dug that, and that's
you know, obviously the women in WNBA, there's so much
trash talking and they get slammed for it, you know,
So it is a I there's so far to go,
(28:57):
But what's important is the conversations to call it out
and then for you know, people who are benefiting from
it need to stand up and be loud. Pagebeckers like
love her.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
She can do no she I really I'm hoping she
uses her voice in such a powerful way, and she
already has.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
The SPS as a white woman who leads a black
lead sport and celebrated here. I want to show a
light on black women, they don't get the media coverage
that they deserve.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
So I think it's time for change. Change. So we
know when she's coming in and hopefully she'll go the sparks. Yeah,
and we know she's going to continue to be that
vocal and it's important you have to shut that down.
But yeah, we got a long way to go. We
have a really long way to go. Can we have
(29:50):
to be together?
Speaker 5 (29:52):
We have?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I mean, I love that you're talking about with the angel.
What you're talking about is you're being honest about it,
but you're also supportive of her, you know, and we
just we need that support amongst each other more than ever.
And you know, it's interesting, like I didn't even see
a friend of mine sent me you know, Asia was
(30:13):
on a podcast, Oh bad Mouth and Love and Basketball.
It was like everyone can have their opinion. It's like
you can absolutely have your opinion. What surprised me was
how far she went, you know, about something and a
film that's meant so much to black girls and black women,
the fact that there's a black woman behind it. You know,
(30:35):
I think I just hope that she forgot about that.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
When Making of a Rivalry returns, the league has come
a very long way, but there's still more work to do.
We look ahead at what's the future of the WNBA.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Once you have a transcendent star like Jordan, Now we
can get the staffs, Now we can get the Lebron
and I think that's what's going to happen. So Page
is next, and then Juju, and Juju could be the
biggest star of them all, like Juju getting this shoe
deal as the biggest shoe deal for a women's basketball
player in the history of the game. As a sophomore
(31:12):
at USC, when you think about like USC basketball, I
always think about loving basketball and snihlight thin and just
like me as a kid wanting to hoop.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And that's great too.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
So what we're going to see I think moving forward.
And then Malaysia full Wiley, who's nasty, also like she's
going to come into the league and be awesome.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
So you're gonna have this new group.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
Of WNBA players and they all like each other back
in a moment. I'm a host and a content creator
in the Basketball Space podcast name is the.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Heat Check with Christi Crik. I just talked to you
about basketball.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Make fun of things, make fun of people, make fun
of places.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Tristan is a personality that has a very unique but
I believe spot on take of the league's future and
it's player. But when you think of this new crop
of rookies, how would you describe their personalities? And I'm
i'm and I'm specifically talking to obviously about the Angel
Reeses and the Caitlin Clarks and the Camilla Cardoso's, Like
how how did they enter the league as opposed to
(32:13):
what you've seen when you look.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
At with this new generation, is its post nil, right?
And so post nil. They're coming into the league with money,
They're coming into the league with followings and audience of
their own.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
They're coming into the league with brand deals.
Speaker 6 (32:30):
They're coming into the league loud and proud and unapologetic.
And I think that causes a lot of unintentional consequences
with the older generation of w NBA players who have
had to fight and claw and scratch for every shred
(32:51):
of attention, every dollar, everything, and they've had to make
decisions to sacrifice who they were and in order to
continue to keep those things as a possibility. And this
is like a new generation of workers, right, Like you've
got a new generation that says no, I'm not going
to just do what you tell me to do how
(33:14):
you tell me to do it, because I can go
and access this million followers and monetize that on my own.
So what you're seeing is like league fits.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
You're seeing this the tongue out.
Speaker 6 (33:26):
You're seeing almost a backlash to traditional female in the
workforce kind of a thing, and that's caused all kinds
of good things for the league and some friction in
the league.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I think along with these new players and their new money,
they bring the new fans just to says the league
used to be an exclusive party. Everybody did not watch
women's sports, and that's okay, but now it's general admission.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
I think about the WNBA like a party, right, and
the party's been very curated and selective, and it's been poppin'.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And Caitlyn comes.
Speaker 6 (34:01):
In and she's Middle America, right, and she's bringing new
folks to the party. So I think for those who
also have been around this fort a long time, we
have to give grace too. We can't allow the nonsense
in the books, but we also have to know, like
we want the league to grow, so these women who
can get paid don't have to go overseas and end
up in a prison because they weren't making a living wage.
(34:25):
Like we want this league to grow, but there's going
to be growing pains, and sometimes a broad mainstream fan
base brings things that we don't really feel comfortable with
because we've been all like minded in a way where
we accept everybody.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
But as our vice president Kamala Harris would say, we
ain't going back love in basketball. While I use that
film as an example and I see the parallels currently
in the WNBA, I really want the last word to
be given to the women of the league. This is
my life letter to you all. You've worked so hard.
(35:04):
We've watched you grind, We've watched you demand respect and dignity,
and now you receive it because you deserve it. This
is for the women who built this league. Lisa Leslie,
Don Staley, Cheryl Swoops, Cynthia Cooper, Maya Moore, Candice Parker.
(35:26):
We thank you, ladies, for what you have given us.
We thank you for what you have built. We thank
you for the excellence because we see it and we
honor it. The league is in a beautiful place, and
I want to thank the ladies of the past. The
ladies of the present and the ladies who are coming.
We in this docu series with the love letter if
(35:48):
you Will, That's why we chose love in basketball. We
saw the parallels. But when we really truly want to
find out what the future of the league will be,
we should let the ladies answer that question. We thank
you for what you've given us, and we can't wait
to have more, even.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
More slowed out crowds, so many of your people coming
to the games.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
I love where we are right now.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
We just continue to girl.
Speaker 7 (36:10):
I can't say, well it'll be in five years, but
I know that tennis is gonna be higher.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
The money will go up.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
We have a new CBA coming up coming up in
twenty twenty five, so I'm this my loven year in
the league. The growth, the game's gonna grow, and I
think like the biggest thing is just a salary cap,
Like we're actually gonna get the money we deserve. We
just is it gonna take some more years, but it's coming.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
I love this league and I think that when the
next CBA comes around, they're gonna do the right thing.
And it's not gonna be perfect, it's not gonna be
where we want it all the way, but with growth
comes paying and vice versus. So I think really good
things are gonna come out of this.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
If I could predict the future, I think it'll be
on the same level as the NBA in terms of pay,
in terms of salaries, in terms of opportunities, marketability, all
that kind of stuff, accessibility, everything.
Speaker 7 (36:49):
I agree it'd be on the same standard just be basketball.
I think it's so many first first social women's basketball,
but I think and the few to who need a
standard regarding hall at basketball and if people are gonna
be like you mean, men's or woman, so this leek
is going.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
To go through the roof and out of everybody.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
It's ready.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
It's a ready, It's ready.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
The making of a rivalry. Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese
is a Be Honest production in partnership with the Black
Effect podcast Network. In iHeart Women's Sports, Written and executive
produced by me Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana,
produced by Jocksvice Thomas, sound design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford.
Associate producer olablusayl Shabby Naked Sports is a part of
(37:25):
the Black Effect Podcast Network. In iHeartMedia.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Hey everybody.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
If you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast,
and for those who've been with us since season one,
thank you for right now. We're kicking off season four
with this six episode docu series that you're listening to
right now, and after that, Naked Sports will continue to
live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. We're
covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA
(37:52):
Rookie of the Year contests. This season will be bold,
as you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
our show so very unique.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
We appreciate you for.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Being here and thank you all for the support. We'll
talk to you next week.
Host
Cari Champion
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