October 7, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, Cari delves into the dynamics of rivalries in sports and music, with a particular focus on the perceived rivalries between female athletes, such as Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese, and likens them to those between artists like Beyoncé and Taylor Swift.
If we're being honest, there’s a societal compulsion to compare women, pitting them against each other as though the real competition lies in the comparison itself rather than the sport. The ongoing narrative of placing women in opposition has proven to be a profitable story that has fueled various industries throughout history.
We also examine women's responsibilities as public figures and emphasize authenticity's vital role in how they represent themselves.
Cari Champion interviews Suzy Exposito, an independent journalist based in Los Angeles, and Justin Tinsley, a senior reporter with ESPN's Andscape.
Connect: @CariChampion @NakedwithCariChampion
Check out NAKED SPORTS on YouTube!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so
called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does
is it calls for us to claim positions.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
In this episode of making of a rivalry, I take
us beyond the basketball courts. I attempt to explain why
rivals and other disciplines also exist in particular with women.
And please please listen with the patient ear as I
give my thesis. The perceived rivalry that exists between Caitlin
Clark and Angel Reese is also akin to the rivalry
(00:41):
narrative that exists between Beyonce and Taylor Swift.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I think with these very public rivalries that happen to
be like vicariously lived through fans, I think that there
are a lot of parallels between someone like Taylor Swift's
and Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
There's a certain compulsion in society that pushes us to
compare women within the same industries, as if there can
only be room for one to succeed. This mindset always
fosters a competitive narrative that pits women against each other,
making it hard to coexist without that noise of comparison. However,
I also believe when race enters this equation, that rivalry
(01:23):
intensifies into something far more divisive. It's no longer just
about competition. It becomes a battleground where you may feel
a need to choose a side, and the discourse begins
to shift. This dynamic doesn't just highlight differences, it magnifies them,
making the rivalry less about individual achievement and more about identity,
(01:44):
as though your success or my success and my recognition
or your recognition must come at the cost of others.
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
And I don't need to pick to put Angel Rees
in some kind of villains roll, because I don't consider
her a villain. But I think every great player needs
a foil.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
The reason why we watch it women's basketball is not
just because of one person.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
It's because of me too.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
I don't think there should be any criticism for what
she did. I honestly didn't see it when the game
was going on, but.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
The story became more compelling and the desire to watch
and talk about it became more compelling when she had
a foil. Angel won a national championship. She has four
million plus followers. She's at the met Gala, Sizza and
Magde Stallion want to come sit courtside and watch her
naked sports.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
The Making of a Rivalry a six episode docu series
that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas in
Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion,
and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. This past
summer belonged to women, not only in sport, but also
(02:49):
in the music industry. It was the summer tour of
Beyonce and Taylor Swift. The Renaissance Tour grossed over at
billion dollars reportedly, while the Errors Tour also did the same.
MPR spoke with the professor of musicology at the Miami
University and former president of the Society of American Music,
and she says the perceived rivalry between Beyonce and Taylor
(03:11):
Swift is beneficial to the music industry.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so
called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does
is it calls for us to claim positions. It also
causes for us to speak with our dollars.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
But more so, it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Fuels an industry that's always been based in controversy in
some type of way, the cultural industry thrives off of that.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'll be honest, I don't know much about the history
between Taylor Swift and Beyonce. I'm more of a Beyonce fan.
I followed her career since she was a member of
Destiny's Child. I watched her lead that group to success.
Beyonce's debut solo album, Dangerously in Love, followed up with
B Day, launched her into a stratosphere that not only
(04:04):
set her apart from her peers, but also placed her
on a trajectory that has solidified her status as one
of the greatest performers of our generation.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I think Beyonce, like among music critics, she's very deified,
and I think that it's because you know, I mean,
you watch, if you watch the Homecoming documentary, you see
how hard Beyonce works. She does it all and she's
(04:34):
been doing it since she was a child. You know,
that's something she and Taylor have in common. And Beyonce,
the way that she's navigated different genres, it has been
so like fascinating to watch the way that she applies
her musical prowess to so many different forms.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But for the sake of this docuseries, I needed to
contextualize the perceived rivalry between the two. When and where
did this so called rivalry began.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
My name is Susie Exposito and I'm an independent journalist
based in.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
La Susie says, Taylor Swift Star was built on a
loyal fan base in country music. What's at her part
was her skill set as a prolific writer.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I'm such a Tailor swift apologist. And it took a
long time to come around because I think that when
she was coming up, you know, she was this like
teen musical prodigy. She's like a machine when it comes
to writing songs. She's just such a prolific songwriter. And
she started when she was pretty young, and she started
in the country music space. And her parents, you know,
(05:37):
they're they're very wealthy. I think they're both involved in
like finance before she you know, signed her first record deal,
they really did help, you know, groom her to become
a pop superstar, and they had the resources to do it.
But it also helps that she's just such a good songwriter.
I know not everyone will agree with me, but just
(05:59):
thinking about the legacy of like female singer songwriters from
like the sixties to now. I just think about, you know,
how we wouldn't have someone like her without without Joni Mitchell,
or like Loretta Lynn or Bali Parton, Dolly Parton, like
you know so so Taylor Swift. You know, at first,
(06:19):
it's like, Okay, she she really started to stand out
in country music. She's part of this like long legacy
of women who were very who were speaking from a
very like empowered place.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
This is not the first time I've heard that explanation, However,
Susie says, when she left country for pop music, there
was a shift.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
She eventually, I think became bigger than the pond that
she was raised in, you know. And when she went pop,
people got really upset about it. But it just she's
getting too big for those birches.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Taylor's music was so transcendent, moving more and more towards
pop culture, and in two thousand and nine, when she
won the VMA Moon Award for Best Female Video You
Belong with Me, Well, that moment, in particular, through controversy,
solidified her as a star and America's darling.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
I'm really happy for you. I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Had one of the best videos of all time.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You know, he famously crashed her acceptance speech for an
MTV VMA, and you know he was he was trying
to I mean, he was essentially pitting her against Beyonce, obviously.
You know, It's set up this rivalry that even to
this day, I still don't think is totally appropriate. You know,
I wouldn't even consider like, like Taylor Swift and Beyonce
(07:37):
both very prolific artists who have like really mastered their craft.
But you know the way that Kanye set it up.
He set it up to pit these women against each other,
and from there there was like a huge media frenzy,
a frenzy among the fans. And so seeing this, you know,
(07:59):
just just this tension or I don't even want to
say tension, it's like outright, you know, outrage.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Kanye West, for his part, says he wanted Beyonce to
get her just due. He also says that Taylor Swift
should thank him because he made her famous. But as
I'm learning, it seems we're conditioned as a society to
have women compete against one another, whether it was intentional
or not. The fan bases have yet to let this go.
The Taylor versus Beyonce was at an all time high
(08:26):
this past summer. Their tours were so significant to the
economy and individual success, but the social conversation always centered
who is the best between these two supernovas.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
When you look at the rankings of the top tours
from twenty twenty three, no one is talking about Bruce
Springstein competing with Ed Sheeran. Why is it that women
are always hitted against each other? Exceptionalism is measured or
marked continually changes according to genre of music, sometimes race,
(09:03):
sometimes generation. You know, it just varies, but hard and fast,
there's only been space for.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
One woman, and depending on what camp you live in,
swifty year behind Caitlin Clark or Angel Reese, the narrative
always comes back to which one do you choose. What
I've learned is that no matter where you are in
the world, and I hate to even sound like I
didn't know I was such a feminist, but it is
a man's world and the way in which we talk
(09:32):
about things, the way we view society, the way we
view women is through a men's lens, and it has
been that way since the beginning of time. We continue
to adopt that narrative, that mindset. Societally and also individually.
We never compare men the way we compare women. And
who started that men? Who's the prettiest, who's the skinniest,
(09:53):
who's the tallest, And we've adopted that, And so these
perceived rivalries only come about and our minds and in
our heads based on this masculine society that we live in.
When making of a rivalry returns the comparisons that extend
beyond the court, Caitlin Clark is cast as a figure
akin to Taylor Swift, while Angel Reese embodies the essence
(10:17):
of Beyonce. I'm fascinated about how powerful Taylor Swift is
and why she has such a loyal fan base that
spans generations. I always say women ages eight to eighty
are the foundation of Swifties. That's based on my street science.
It's not a fact, but I'm sure I'm not far off.
(10:38):
I've noticed that when people watch Taylor Swift, they identify
with her in a way that feels very similar to
the basketball fans who identify with Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Justin Tinsley, senior reporter with ESPN's and Scape. Yeah, so
It's funny because my wife she listens to a ton
of music, and back when we first started dating, she
was like, oh, yeah, I'm listening to this Taylor Swift album.
I'm not really like, I'm not a Swiftie, but I
like some of her songs. And I knew who Taylor
(11:11):
Swift was before we started dating, but like you, I
was like, it's not really my cup of tea. I
don't really I know she's at that point in time,
she was quote unquote just a superstar. Now she's like,
I don't even know what what's past the megastar.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I don't know, Clark a supernova.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
Sad that's what we going to show with for the
second this conversation. She's a supernova. So over the last
couple of years, I've tried to do my due diligence
and just read up on her and understand what the
phenomenon is about her, even if you know, she's not
my cup of tea, but I'm a journalist. I need
to know, you know, why things are so important. And
(11:50):
what I found about Taylor Swift is this is even
before Travis Kelce in the NFL, before that conversation, her
music really connected with the younger generations of American And
if you go back through the history of music in
this country, if a music can galvanize the young people,
(12:12):
you're gonna have that is that is the type of
power that you can't put a dollar sign behind because
because those young people are going to grow older with
your music and they're going to, like base I don't
want to say, pledge their allegiance to you, but like
they're gonna stand behind you. And if you look at
Taylor Swift and you look at the reaction she gets
when you know, former President Donald Trump says he hates
(12:35):
her on social media, you saw the backlash against that.
You see when she endorses a candidate for president that
voter registration increases in some states by nearly a million.
Young people, Like that's power. Forget the you know her
ears toward grosses over a billion dollars, Like, yes, we
know that, but that's like significant type of power. And
(12:56):
so when you look at a Caitlin Clark and you
look at the fact they're like, yes, the ratings are up,
and that's great. But when you see the emotional response
that a lot of people get from watching her play basketball,
watching her break these records, you realize, like, yo, this
isn't just basketball here, It's deeper than that. So when
(13:18):
you call it the Caitlyn Clark effect and you look
at the impact that Caitlyn Clark has had on women's
basketball as a whole, you really can't deny it. It
may not be apples to apples, but like you understand
where the comparison comes from, because she has a ton
of power as it relates to basketball.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
And you say, look at the response of watching her play.
Talk to me a little bit more about that. It's
more than a visceral experience, right, it means so much more.
I want to know what it means to her fan base.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
You know, she's coming around at such a time when
and this sometimes this is a negative thing too, she
comes around at the time we're as connected as we've
ever been. You know, Caitlyn Clark hits twelve threes in
a college game and next thing you know, ESPN or
House of Highlights are over time. They're posting it on
their Instagram and it's getting hundreds of thousands of views
(14:17):
and hundreds of thousands of comments. That's how you create
conversations beyond the game. Because even when the game is off,
people are still sharing the highlights. People are still saying like, yo,
you have to watch this person play this game. Like
it is appointment viewing. It's not just important to the
game of basketball. It's a cultural groundswell, and very few
(14:40):
players actually do that for their respective sports. Like in
a world where everything is on our phones now, there
are very few things that are still considered appointment viewing.
Or when this athlete comes to town, you got to
go see them play. It's like when Michael Jordan was playing, like, oh,
Jordan's coming to DC, we gotta go watch and play,
(15:01):
or Jordan's coming to you from LA Jordan's coming to
play the Lakers. We gotta go see Michael Jordan.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I don't need to see him trash crash and she
you will still go to boom.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
That's the thing about it too. But you know she
holds she holds this type of power.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Caitlin Clark's power has launched a movement in women's sports.
Her power has taken the WNBA from the shadows and
centered the sport in a way like we have never seen.
Her power to me is very similar to that of
Taylor Swift's and when I think of Angel Reese. She
embodies much of what Beyonce has already given us through
(15:39):
her music. It's power, unapologetic, and a commanding presence. Justin Tinsley.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Once again, Angel Reese has a responsibility that so many
people in this country will never truly be able to
understand what it's like. And even though I empathize, I
still won't know been a young black woman in America
with a lot of talent and you're not afraid to
speak your mind. That scares this country to death because
(16:11):
for so long, the role, especially you know, the role
of women in this country was to be seen and
not heard, and definitely for black women. And as foolish
as it was, so many people in twenty twenty four
still have this thought. So many people still feel like
her expressing herself is a form of violence, or her
expressing herself is to destroy another person, when in reality
(16:35):
is she's just taking her individuality and showcasing it to
the world, like I will never ever forget that LSU
IOWA National Championship game, and you know she obviously did that.
She pointed to her finger. I in the moment, I
had no clue it was going to become what it became.
I was like, Yo, this is this is Angel Reese's
(16:55):
star turn. Like she's been a star within college basketball.
Now she's about to be this like cultural recognizable figure
that goes just beyond the game of basketball. She's this
you know, she's this tall black girl. She's got Baltimore
to the core in her personality and it sticks out
(17:16):
in a way for me. That was beautiful and I
loved it, but I'll never forget. Soon as she did that,
I started getting texts from people I started seeing on
social media like oh, this is very class list of her,
Like she's she's trying to show the game, and like, oh,
she doesn't deserve this moment.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I'm like, but to your original point, is her responsibility
to be her unauthentic self?
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Yeah, her responsibility is to beat herself. It is irresponsible
to be your unauthentic self. And people say they want
that all the time. They say they want that, but
a lot of people want I'll just say Andrew Reeson
in this case, for the sake of this conversation at
a lot of people want andre rees to be her
(18:04):
their their version of authenticity, I guess is what I'm
trying to say, Like Okay, how I see authenticity If
she fits in that mold, and guess what she's authentic.
If she doesn't fit that mold, and guess what she's inauthentic.
She's a show boat, she's bad for the sport x Y.
And we saw these conversations and it was just a
microcosm of being a black woman in America in so
(18:28):
many cases, like she had just achieved this rare level
of success in the organized sports. She just won a
national championship. She had beat the darling of the sport
and Caitlin Clark and IOWA, who were the biggest story
in sports that year, honestly, and the only thing people
can talk about with her was just like, oh, she's
(18:48):
a show boat. That was very rude of her.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And that also has everything to do with being a woman.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Yeah, everything that has to do with being a woman
in particular, Black woman.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
In particular, Black woman in particular. And so I just
want to go back because I'm trying to understand what
you're saying, because I think it's I think it is powerful.
Her responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility. Yeah, and
her responsibility is to be her authentic self. Yeah, perhaps
to create a new mold of what should be. Yeah,
(19:19):
is that what we are saying here? She is she
in a in a realm in which she will be
the person to illustrate what it should and can look like.
If that is true, Yeah, that is a black woman.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
That's absolutely you know, it's her responsibility. It's not her
responsibility to just do it by herself. It's her responsibility
to do her part in that. Now, the really difficult
part is maintaining that responsibility and acting on that responsibility.
She's going to have so much pushback for that.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
But being authentic isn't for the week, as we see
with Angel and as we have seen with Beyonce through
the years, case point super Bowl twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I think about, for example, just I mean the uproar
there always is whenever she expresses any kind of I
don't know, any kind of opinion really, or like I
think about the time that she performed the Super Bowl
where she opened and Coldplay was there, and her performance
(20:23):
it like evoked memories of like the Black Panthers and
like their history and they're like very pro black agenda.
So obviously a lot of people I think in white
America got really threatened by that, they were like shut
up and saying, don't force us to like acknowledge your
opinion or your lived experience anything like that. You know,
(20:47):
I feel like people and I will say again, it's
about racial relations in the United States. I think non
black people in the US, a lot of them they
see a very like pro black mormans or they seen
artists taking a pro black stance, and they regard it
as really threatening. And I think that that has been
(21:07):
what has underpinned, you know, like some of the criticism
of Beyonce. She is a very pro black artist. I
think it's a beautiful thing. And it's part it's like
so key to her expression as an artist. How could
she like extricate herself from that. That would be ridiculous.
But it's also what makes so much of her work
(21:30):
so like beautiful and intellectually stimulating, you know. But I
think that is what underpins the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
Everyone knows that the Grammys Album of the Year is
one of the major awards of the night, which is
why they always wait to the end to give it out.
Beyonce has more Grammys than anyone in history bar none.
Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Elvis, Presley, you name them, like,
she has more Grammy Awards than all of them, but
she doesn't have Album of the Year. And when you
(22:01):
look back at her catalog and you think back on
some of those major albums, especially especially the ones that
have come out over the last decade plus the fours
or the self titled Lemonade, Lemonade didn't get one. If
we remember the Hysterician.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
This woman told us about how she with the fight
she put her. They went on a whole public tour
explaining how they got back, and she still didn't win.
What even I do.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Adele one that year and Adele got up there was.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Like I don't deserve this. She was like, I don't
deserve that.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
So when Jay got up and said that I believe
it was at the last Grammys. I believe it was
last year's Grammys, and he was talking specifically about Album
of the Year in terms of just like, yeah, it's funny,
she's achieved so much. She's in this rare class of
musicians to ever live. But you still hold that from
(22:55):
her because it is still it still feels like for
the most part, if you look at the history of
Album of the Year, it is predominantly won by white artists.
It is like one of those last beacons of whiteness
that exists in American music. And that's not to say that,
you know, black artists haven't won that, but when you
look at it, it's overwhelmingly white artists who have won
(23:17):
the Album of the Year. And she every year she's lost,
she's lost it to a white superstar, whether it be
Adele or whether it be Taylor Swift. And now we're
basically barreling towards the same type of matchup in February
when the Grammys come, because you obviously you know Taylor's
album is She's gonna get nominated for Album of the Year.
(23:39):
We know Beyonce and Cowboy Carter gonna gonna get nominated
for Album of the Year. So these same conversations that
we have been having with it, it feels like for
the last decade plus, ad nauseum, we're gonna have them again.
And so we're gonna see if this album Cowboy Carter,
which was shut out of the Country Music Awards, actually
wins a Grammy for albur Album of the Year. So
(24:01):
when we take that conversation and we look at somebody
like Angel Reese, and we see that regardless of the
talent that she is brought forth to the game, and
not just the talent that she's brought up to the game,
the charisma that you know, my little cousins, they say, Riz,
now I'm all out the loop. But she she's brought
(24:22):
so much you know, swagger and personality to the game
that scares people.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think music journalists, I can say that we have
been at odds with the Recording Academy for many years,
and I think it's while I can't say what any
of the people behind the scenes intend, we have speculated
for many years that it's like, Okay, when is Beyonce
(24:49):
going to get her due? When is she going to
get that album of the Year prist? We think that
there have been so many albums that qualified. Yet every year,
at the end of the night, you know, she just happened,
and she.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Handles herself with so much grace. She still attends these
I would never I see why jay Z was so upset.
Now I get it. I'm like, why, okay, A get
it he said this young lady, And I just would
why she like this so candles herself because she doesn't
have she does not get the same grace that she
(25:26):
is given. And I liken that to what Angel is
dealing with. Angel is a different generation. Angel Reese has
been unapologetic about who she is, and she says, Okay,
if you want me to be a villain, I'll be
a villain. But she doesn't like that role. She doesn't
want to be assigned that role, and she has been
assigned that role. And I don't understand in these worlds.
(25:51):
The only thing that I can say the commonality is
is that they're black women. Two different women from two
different worlds, one an athlete, the other a music icon,
but their shared experience remains strikingly similar. Angel Rees and
Beyonce both represent more than their respective fields. They become
symbols of strength, identity, and culture. The same is true
(26:13):
for Kaitlyn Clark and Taylor Swift. Both are super novas,
adored in their own spheres as America's darlings. Their talent
and success have propelled them into the spotlight, but with
that fame comes a unique challenge. They often find themselves
pushing back against sections of their fan base or the
public who attempt to co opt their names for political
(26:34):
or personal gain.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
I mean like maybe Kaitlyn's just a maybe she's a
Taylor Swift fan, maybe she also wants to vote for Kamala.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
But the way that.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Conservatives have rallied around Kaitlyn Clark like so hard, you know,
because going back to like what it means for white womanhood,
It's just like they have such a parasocial relationship with her,
the same way that a lot of Taylor Swift fans
have a parisocial relationship with her, you know, where they
(27:06):
project all of their opinions and desires onto these people
they don't know. And so like Kaitlin Clark doing something
as I think innocuous is parting a photo on Instagram
where Taylor is holding a cat and making an endorsement
of Gamala as a childless cat lady herself.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
I don't know what Kaitlin was thinking, but I don't
think she needed to like apologize or take it back.
It should be about the basketball.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You know.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
That's what these women are like putting their all into,
is the game. And the fact that the WNBA is
like it's like peak popularity right now and is possible.
I mean, it's popularity is probably only going to grow
even more. I think that's amazing. I think it's awesome
(28:00):
that we're seeing like such a broad spectrum of like
like genders as well in the WNBA, just like a
bunch of really strong women who are just like I
don't know, showing us that there's so many different ways
to be a woman and like to be in your
power and be at the top of your game. And
(28:25):
what's so sad to me is the way that people
use Caitlin Clark as like a stand in for their
own political beliefs and insecurities, you know, like people who
who feel like the white population is threatened, you know,
these like extremists taking her up is like their trophy.
(28:47):
And I think it's very similar to the way that
like the alt right took up Taylor Swift as their trophy,
you know, many years ago, and you had these like
alt right websites, these whites premises websites, I should say,
you know, like Daily Stormer being like, oh, Taylor Swift
is our hero, you know, and like the fact that
(29:09):
she started to take she had to take a stand politically,
I think after that because she didn't want to be
affiliated with these people, and it took it took years,
you know, and I'm sure it took a lot of
likea like it took a lot of brain racking to
figure out, Okay, how do I how do I stand
up for myself and also stand up for like the
people who be alright, is attacking you know, many of
(29:33):
whom are her fans. I think that Taylor Swift had
to take a stance. And for Caitlin Clark, I think,
you know, I just I feel for her in that
she is so talented, just objectively like extremely talented. One
of the biggest of this generation and her legacy is
(29:56):
you know, being threatened by the people who are using
her success in bad faith against black women. I think
that's so sad and I don't want that to be
part of her legacy. I don't think she does. I
feel like Angel Reese is getting an extraordinary level of hate,
(30:16):
and it's really just because it's like how people are
using the game in general in bad faith. Whatever happens
in the game, they project their politics onto it, they
project their own personal prejudices onto it. Just let these
women play ball, you know, Like, at the end of
(30:40):
the day, why can't a woman play ball?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So now it's time for me to say the uncomfortable
part out loud. The perceived rivalry has helped music and sport.
We can clearly see the financial success, but their power,
their individual power, is undeniable. When we return, with power
comes great responsibility, and we can see it in real
(31:03):
time how these women are using their power for good.
We preview episode six. Everyone watches women's sports.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
What we see constantly that is a thread throughout this
league is that these women are used to fighting for
every scrap of dignity that they have, for fighting for
the respect, for fighting for equity in every part of
what they do.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So fighting ain't nothing to them.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Like to be a women's basketball player, I would even
limit it to basketball, To.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Be a female athlete is resistance.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
It's innate resistance in itself, and so they're used to
taking that stand.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
So you can threaten them with taking.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Something away, but they're like, we already not getting paid
what we should, so that's not doing anything to them.
So I think it's just always been part of the
league's unofficial DNA that this league stands for resistance.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
The saying that everyone watches women's sports is no longer
just a cliche. It has become a movement, a shift
in the cultural landscape. Women's sports has found its rightful
place in today's America. In this era, women are not
only playing the sport, they're commanding attention, rewriting narratives, and
standing firmly in their power. When you think about the WNBA,
(32:25):
how do they fit so perfectly at the intersection of
sports and cultures, sports and politics.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Because they have every intersection ramming against each other. So
you have a third of the league that is LGBTQ plus.
You have obviously a league of all women, so there's
a gender aspect. Then you have even more nuanced the
fact that seventy percent of the league is black women.
So you have like all these things sort of cramming
(32:52):
against each other in a way. That is, their identities
are very much a part of the story of the league.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
You can't escape.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
So yes, if there's an attack and a threat on
the LGBTQ plus community, it's an attack on the league.
If there's an attack on black women, it's an attack
on the league. If there's an attack on women, it's
an attack on the league. So that dynamic of resistance
is just there, whether people.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
Want to accept it or not.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
We're now in a generation where there are little girls
growing up to watch the WBA.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
See.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
That wasn't the case for Cheryl Swoops, that wasn't the
case for Cheryl Miller. There wasn't a case for so
many of the women who started this leader of this
league is like now in the WNBA, and the growth
of it and the fan base is multi generational, and
that's what you want to see. And I remember her
saying that like Maya Moore was her favorite player, and
it dawned on me, like, oh my god, We're finally
(33:47):
in the generation where the women playing actually grew up
watching the women they play with, like, which which is wild.
So you know, I think, you know, for her, I
hope that. I mean, she clearly understands what that means,
but I hope she understands the responsibility of that. And
I think so I think she does. Like I wasn't
(34:09):
trying to indicate that she did not like that. That's
a real thing, that's a real responsibility. And so what
it says to me that even with the upst of downs,
this league was always here to stay.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Everyone watches women's sports. I'll see y'all next week. Thanks
for listening to the making of a Rivalry The Making
of a Rivalry. Caitlin Clark Versus Angel Reese is a
Be Honest production in partnership with the Black Effect Podcast
Network in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive produced by
me Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, Produced by
(34:45):
Jock Vice Thomas, Sound designed and mastered by Dwayne Crawford.
Associate producer Olablucile Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of
the Black Effect Podcast Network in iHeart Media. Hey everybody,
if you're new to Naked Sports, well become to the podcast.
And for those who've been with us since season one,
thank you for right now. We're kicking off season four
(35:06):
with this six episode docu series that you're listening to
right now, and after that, Naked Sports will continue to
live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture for
covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA
Rookie of the Year contests. This season will be bold,
as you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
(35:30):
our show so very unique. We appreciate you for being
here and thank you all for the support. We'll talk
to you next week.
It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so
called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does
is it calls for us to claim positions.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
In this episode of making of a rivalry, I take
us beyond the basketball courts. I attempt to explain why
rivals and other disciplines also exist in particular with women.
And please please listen with the patient ear as I
give my thesis. The perceived rivalry that exists between Caitlin
Clark and Angel Reese is also akin to the rivalry
(00:41):
narrative that exists between Beyonce and Taylor Swift.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I think with these very public rivalries that happen to
be like vicariously lived through fans, I think that there
are a lot of parallels between someone like Taylor Swift's
and Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
There's a certain compulsion in society that pushes us to
compare women within the same industries, as if there can
only be room for one to succeed. This mindset always
fosters a competitive narrative that pits women against each other,
making it hard to coexist without that noise of comparison. However,
I also believe when race enters this equation, that rivalry
(01:23):
intensifies into something far more divisive. It's no longer just
about competition. It becomes a battleground where you may feel
a need to choose a side, and the discourse begins
to shift. This dynamic doesn't just highlight differences, it magnifies them,
making the rivalry less about individual achievement and more about identity,
(01:44):
as though your success or my success and my recognition
or your recognition must come at the cost of others.
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
And I don't need to pick to put Angel Rees
in some kind of villains roll, because I don't consider
her a villain. But I think every great player needs
a foil.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
The reason why we watch it women's basketball is not
just because of one person.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
It's because of me too.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
I don't think there should be any criticism for what
she did. I honestly didn't see it when the game
was going on, but.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
The story became more compelling and the desire to watch
and talk about it became more compelling when she had
a foil. Angel won a national championship. She has four
million plus followers. She's at the met Gala, Sizza and
Magde Stallion want to come sit courtside and watch her
naked sports.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
The Making of a Rivalry a six episode docu series
that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas in
Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion,
and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. This past
summer belonged to women, not only in sport, but also
(02:49):
in the music industry. It was the summer tour of
Beyonce and Taylor Swift. The Renaissance Tour grossed over at
billion dollars reportedly, while the Errors Tour also did the same.
MPR spoke with the professor of musicology at the Miami
University and former president of the Society of American Music,
and she says the perceived rivalry between Beyonce and Taylor
(03:11):
Swift is beneficial to the music industry.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so
called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does
is it calls for us to claim positions. It also
causes for us to speak with our dollars.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
But more so, it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Fuels an industry that's always been based in controversy in
some type of way, the cultural industry thrives off of that.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'll be honest, I don't know much about the history
between Taylor Swift and Beyonce. I'm more of a Beyonce fan.
I followed her career since she was a member of
Destiny's Child. I watched her lead that group to success.
Beyonce's debut solo album, Dangerously in Love, followed up with
B Day, launched her into a stratosphere that not only
(04:04):
set her apart from her peers, but also placed her
on a trajectory that has solidified her status as one
of the greatest performers of our generation.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I think Beyonce, like among music critics, she's very deified,
and I think that it's because you know, I mean,
you watch, if you watch the Homecoming documentary, you see
how hard Beyonce works. She does it all and she's
(04:34):
been doing it since she was a child. You know,
that's something she and Taylor have in common. And Beyonce,
the way that she's navigated different genres, it has been
so like fascinating to watch the way that she applies
her musical prowess to so many different forms.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But for the sake of this docuseries, I needed to
contextualize the perceived rivalry between the two. When and where
did this so called rivalry began.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
My name is Susie Exposito and I'm an independent journalist
based in.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
La Susie says, Taylor Swift Star was built on a
loyal fan base in country music. What's at her part
was her skill set as a prolific writer.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I'm such a Tailor swift apologist. And it took a
long time to come around because I think that when
she was coming up, you know, she was this like
teen musical prodigy. She's like a machine when it comes
to writing songs. She's just such a prolific songwriter. And
she started when she was pretty young, and she started
in the country music space. And her parents, you know,
(05:37):
they're they're very wealthy. I think they're both involved in
like finance before she you know, signed her first record deal,
they really did help, you know, groom her to become
a pop superstar, and they had the resources to do it.
But it also helps that she's just such a good songwriter.
I know not everyone will agree with me, but just
(05:59):
thinking about the legacy of like female singer songwriters from
like the sixties to now. I just think about, you know,
how we wouldn't have someone like her without without Joni Mitchell,
or like Loretta Lynn or Bali Parton, Dolly Parton, like
you know so so Taylor Swift. You know, at first,
(06:19):
it's like, Okay, she she really started to stand out
in country music. She's part of this like long legacy
of women who were very who were speaking from a
very like empowered place.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
This is not the first time I've heard that explanation, However,
Susie says, when she left country for pop music, there
was a shift.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
She eventually, I think became bigger than the pond that
she was raised in, you know. And when she went pop,
people got really upset about it. But it just she's
getting too big for those birches.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Taylor's music was so transcendent, moving more and more towards
pop culture, and in two thousand and nine, when she
won the VMA Moon Award for Best Female Video You
Belong with Me, Well, that moment, in particular, through controversy,
solidified her as a star and America's darling.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
I'm really happy for you. I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Had one of the best videos of all time.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You know, he famously crashed her acceptance speech for an
MTV VMA, and you know he was he was trying
to I mean, he was essentially pitting her against Beyonce, obviously.
You know, It's set up this rivalry that even to
this day, I still don't think is totally appropriate. You know,
I wouldn't even consider like, like Taylor Swift and Beyonce
(07:37):
both very prolific artists who have like really mastered their craft.
But you know the way that Kanye set it up.
He set it up to pit these women against each other,
and from there there was like a huge media frenzy,
a frenzy among the fans. And so seeing this, you know,
(07:59):
just just this tension or I don't even want to
say tension, it's like outright, you know, outrage.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Kanye West, for his part, says he wanted Beyonce to
get her just due. He also says that Taylor Swift
should thank him because he made her famous. But as
I'm learning, it seems we're conditioned as a society to
have women compete against one another, whether it was intentional
or not. The fan bases have yet to let this go.
The Taylor versus Beyonce was at an all time high
(08:26):
this past summer. Their tours were so significant to the
economy and individual success, but the social conversation always centered
who is the best between these two supernovas.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
When you look at the rankings of the top tours
from twenty twenty three, no one is talking about Bruce
Springstein competing with Ed Sheeran. Why is it that women
are always hitted against each other? Exceptionalism is measured or
marked continually changes according to genre of music, sometimes race,
(09:03):
sometimes generation. You know, it just varies, but hard and fast,
there's only been space for.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
One woman, and depending on what camp you live in,
swifty year behind Caitlin Clark or Angel Reese, the narrative
always comes back to which one do you choose. What
I've learned is that no matter where you are in
the world, and I hate to even sound like I
didn't know I was such a feminist, but it is
a man's world and the way in which we talk
(09:32):
about things, the way we view society, the way we
view women is through a men's lens, and it has
been that way since the beginning of time. We continue
to adopt that narrative, that mindset. Societally and also individually.
We never compare men the way we compare women. And
who started that men? Who's the prettiest, who's the skinniest,
(09:53):
who's the tallest, And we've adopted that, And so these
perceived rivalries only come about and our minds and in
our heads based on this masculine society that we live in.
When making of a rivalry returns the comparisons that extend
beyond the court, Caitlin Clark is cast as a figure
akin to Taylor Swift, while Angel Reese embodies the essence
(10:17):
of Beyonce. I'm fascinated about how powerful Taylor Swift is
and why she has such a loyal fan base that
spans generations. I always say women ages eight to eighty
are the foundation of Swifties. That's based on my street science.
It's not a fact, but I'm sure I'm not far off.
(10:38):
I've noticed that when people watch Taylor Swift, they identify
with her in a way that feels very similar to
the basketball fans who identify with Caitlyn Clark.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Justin Tinsley, senior reporter with ESPN's and Scape. Yeah, so
It's funny because my wife she listens to a ton
of music, and back when we first started dating, she
was like, oh, yeah, I'm listening to this Taylor Swift album.
I'm not really like, I'm not a Swiftie, but I
like some of her songs. And I knew who Taylor
(11:11):
Swift was before we started dating, but like you, I
was like, it's not really my cup of tea. I
don't really I know she's at that point in time,
she was quote unquote just a superstar. Now she's like,
I don't even know what what's past the megastar.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I don't know, Clark a supernova.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
Sad that's what we going to show with for the
second this conversation. She's a supernova. So over the last
couple of years, I've tried to do my due diligence
and just read up on her and understand what the
phenomenon is about her, even if you know, she's not
my cup of tea, but I'm a journalist. I need
to know, you know, why things are so important. And
(11:50):
what I found about Taylor Swift is this is even
before Travis Kelce in the NFL, before that conversation, her
music really connected with the younger generations of American And
if you go back through the history of music in
this country, if a music can galvanize the young people,
(12:12):
you're gonna have that is that is the type of
power that you can't put a dollar sign behind because
because those young people are going to grow older with
your music and they're going to, like base I don't
want to say, pledge their allegiance to you, but like
they're gonna stand behind you. And if you look at
Taylor Swift and you look at the reaction she gets
when you know, former President Donald Trump says he hates
(12:35):
her on social media, you saw the backlash against that.
You see when she endorses a candidate for president that
voter registration increases in some states by nearly a million.
Young people, Like that's power. Forget the you know her
ears toward grosses over a billion dollars, Like, yes, we
know that, but that's like significant type of power. And
(12:56):
so when you look at a Caitlin Clark and you
look at the fact they're like, yes, the ratings are up,
and that's great. But when you see the emotional response
that a lot of people get from watching her play basketball,
watching her break these records, you realize, like, yo, this
isn't just basketball here, It's deeper than that. So when
(13:18):
you call it the Caitlyn Clark effect and you look
at the impact that Caitlyn Clark has had on women's
basketball as a whole, you really can't deny it. It
may not be apples to apples, but like you understand
where the comparison comes from, because she has a ton
of power as it relates to basketball.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
And you say, look at the response of watching her play.
Talk to me a little bit more about that. It's
more than a visceral experience, right, it means so much more.
I want to know what it means to her fan base.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
You know, she's coming around at such a time when
and this sometimes this is a negative thing too, she
comes around at the time we're as connected as we've
ever been. You know, Caitlyn Clark hits twelve threes in
a college game and next thing you know, ESPN or
House of Highlights are over time. They're posting it on
their Instagram and it's getting hundreds of thousands of views
(14:17):
and hundreds of thousands of comments. That's how you create
conversations beyond the game. Because even when the game is off,
people are still sharing the highlights. People are still saying like, yo,
you have to watch this person play this game. Like
it is appointment viewing. It's not just important to the
game of basketball. It's a cultural groundswell, and very few
(14:40):
players actually do that for their respective sports. Like in
a world where everything is on our phones now, there
are very few things that are still considered appointment viewing.
Or when this athlete comes to town, you got to
go see them play. It's like when Michael Jordan was playing, like, oh,
Jordan's coming to DC, we gotta go watch and play,
(15:01):
or Jordan's coming to you from LA Jordan's coming to
play the Lakers. We gotta go see Michael Jordan.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I don't need to see him trash crash and she
you will still go to boom.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
That's the thing about it too. But you know she
holds she holds this type of power.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Caitlin Clark's power has launched a movement in women's sports.
Her power has taken the WNBA from the shadows and
centered the sport in a way like we have never seen.
Her power to me is very similar to that of
Taylor Swift's and when I think of Angel Reese. She
embodies much of what Beyonce has already given us through
(15:39):
her music. It's power, unapologetic, and a commanding presence. Justin Tinsley.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Once again, Angel Reese has a responsibility that so many
people in this country will never truly be able to
understand what it's like. And even though I empathize, I
still won't know been a young black woman in America
with a lot of talent and you're not afraid to
speak your mind. That scares this country to death because
(16:11):
for so long, the role, especially you know, the role
of women in this country was to be seen and
not heard, and definitely for black women. And as foolish
as it was, so many people in twenty twenty four
still have this thought. So many people still feel like
her expressing herself is a form of violence, or her
expressing herself is to destroy another person, when in reality
(16:35):
is she's just taking her individuality and showcasing it to
the world, like I will never ever forget that LSU
IOWA National Championship game, and you know she obviously did that.
She pointed to her finger. I in the moment, I
had no clue it was going to become what it became.
I was like, Yo, this is this is Angel Reese's
(16:55):
star turn. Like she's been a star within college basketball.
Now she's about to be this like cultural recognizable figure
that goes just beyond the game of basketball. She's this
you know, she's this tall black girl. She's got Baltimore
to the core in her personality and it sticks out
(17:16):
in a way for me. That was beautiful and I
loved it, but I'll never forget. Soon as she did that,
I started getting texts from people I started seeing on
social media like oh, this is very class list of her,
Like she's she's trying to show the game, and like, oh,
she doesn't deserve this moment.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I'm like, but to your original point, is her responsibility
to be her unauthentic self?
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Yeah, her responsibility is to beat herself. It is irresponsible
to be your unauthentic self. And people say they want
that all the time. They say they want that, but
a lot of people want I'll just say Andrew Reeson
in this case, for the sake of this conversation at
a lot of people want andre rees to be her
(18:04):
their their version of authenticity, I guess is what I'm
trying to say, Like Okay, how I see authenticity If
she fits in that mold, and guess what she's authentic.
If she doesn't fit that mold, and guess what she's inauthentic.
She's a show boat, she's bad for the sport x Y.
And we saw these conversations and it was just a
microcosm of being a black woman in America in so
(18:28):
many cases, like she had just achieved this rare level
of success in the organized sports. She just won a
national championship. She had beat the darling of the sport
and Caitlin Clark and IOWA, who were the biggest story
in sports that year, honestly, and the only thing people
can talk about with her was just like, oh, she's
(18:48):
a show boat. That was very rude of her.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And that also has everything to do with being a woman.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Yeah, everything that has to do with being a woman
in particular, Black woman.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
In particular, Black woman in particular. And so I just
want to go back because I'm trying to understand what
you're saying, because I think it's I think it is powerful.
Her responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility. Yeah, and
her responsibility is to be her authentic self. Yeah, perhaps
to create a new mold of what should be. Yeah,
(19:19):
is that what we are saying here? She is she
in a in a realm in which she will be
the person to illustrate what it should and can look like.
If that is true, Yeah, that is a black woman.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
That's absolutely you know, it's her responsibility. It's not her
responsibility to just do it by herself. It's her responsibility
to do her part in that. Now, the really difficult
part is maintaining that responsibility and acting on that responsibility.
She's going to have so much pushback for that.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
But being authentic isn't for the week, as we see
with Angel and as we have seen with Beyonce through
the years, case point super Bowl twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I think about, for example, just I mean the uproar
there always is whenever she expresses any kind of I
don't know, any kind of opinion really, or like I
think about the time that she performed the Super Bowl
where she opened and Coldplay was there, and her performance
(20:23):
it like evoked memories of like the Black Panthers and
like their history and they're like very pro black agenda.
So obviously a lot of people I think in white
America got really threatened by that, they were like shut
up and saying, don't force us to like acknowledge your
opinion or your lived experience anything like that. You know,
(20:47):
I feel like people and I will say again, it's
about racial relations in the United States. I think non
black people in the US, a lot of them they
see a very like pro black mormans or they seen
artists taking a pro black stance, and they regard it
as really threatening. And I think that that has been
(21:07):
what has underpinned, you know, like some of the criticism
of Beyonce. She is a very pro black artist. I
think it's a beautiful thing. And it's part it's like
so key to her expression as an artist. How could
she like extricate herself from that. That would be ridiculous.
But it's also what makes so much of her work
(21:30):
so like beautiful and intellectually stimulating, you know. But I
think that is what underpins the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
Everyone knows that the Grammys Album of the Year is
one of the major awards of the night, which is
why they always wait to the end to give it out.
Beyonce has more Grammys than anyone in history bar none.
Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Elvis, Presley, you name them, like,
she has more Grammy Awards than all of them, but
she doesn't have Album of the Year. And when you
(22:01):
look back at her catalog and you think back on
some of those major albums, especially especially the ones that
have come out over the last decade plus the fours
or the self titled Lemonade, Lemonade didn't get one. If
we remember the Hysterician.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
This woman told us about how she with the fight
she put her. They went on a whole public tour
explaining how they got back, and she still didn't win.
What even I do.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Adele one that year and Adele got up there was.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Like I don't deserve this. She was like, I don't
deserve that.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
So when Jay got up and said that I believe
it was at the last Grammys. I believe it was
last year's Grammys, and he was talking specifically about Album
of the Year in terms of just like, yeah, it's funny,
she's achieved so much. She's in this rare class of
musicians to ever live. But you still hold that from
(22:55):
her because it is still it still feels like for
the most part, if you look at the history of
Album of the Year, it is predominantly won by white artists.
It is like one of those last beacons of whiteness
that exists in American music. And that's not to say that,
you know, black artists haven't won that, but when you
look at it, it's overwhelmingly white artists who have won
(23:17):
the Album of the Year. And she every year she's lost,
she's lost it to a white superstar, whether it be
Adele or whether it be Taylor Swift. And now we're
basically barreling towards the same type of matchup in February
when the Grammys come, because you obviously you know Taylor's
album is She's gonna get nominated for Album of the Year.
(23:39):
We know Beyonce and Cowboy Carter gonna gonna get nominated
for Album of the Year. So these same conversations that
we have been having with it, it feels like for
the last decade plus, ad nauseum, we're gonna have them again.
And so we're gonna see if this album Cowboy Carter,
which was shut out of the Country Music Awards, actually
wins a Grammy for albur Album of the Year. So
(24:01):
when we take that conversation and we look at somebody
like Angel Reese, and we see that regardless of the
talent that she is brought forth to the game, and
not just the talent that she's brought up to the game,
the charisma that you know, my little cousins, they say, Riz,
now I'm all out the loop. But she she's brought
(24:22):
so much you know, swagger and personality to the game
that scares people.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think music journalists, I can say that we have
been at odds with the Recording Academy for many years,
and I think it's while I can't say what any
of the people behind the scenes intend, we have speculated
for many years that it's like, Okay, when is Beyonce
(24:49):
going to get her due? When is she going to
get that album of the Year prist? We think that
there have been so many albums that qualified. Yet every year,
at the end of the night, you know, she just happened,
and she.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Handles herself with so much grace. She still attends these
I would never I see why jay Z was so upset.
Now I get it. I'm like, why, okay, A get
it he said this young lady, And I just would
why she like this so candles herself because she doesn't
have she does not get the same grace that she
(25:26):
is given. And I liken that to what Angel is
dealing with. Angel is a different generation. Angel Reese has
been unapologetic about who she is, and she says, Okay,
if you want me to be a villain, I'll be
a villain. But she doesn't like that role. She doesn't
want to be assigned that role, and she has been
assigned that role. And I don't understand in these worlds.
(25:51):
The only thing that I can say the commonality is
is that they're black women. Two different women from two
different worlds, one an athlete, the other a music icon,
but their shared experience remains strikingly similar. Angel Rees and
Beyonce both represent more than their respective fields. They become
symbols of strength, identity, and culture. The same is true
(26:13):
for Kaitlyn Clark and Taylor Swift. Both are super novas,
adored in their own spheres as America's darlings. Their talent
and success have propelled them into the spotlight, but with
that fame comes a unique challenge. They often find themselves
pushing back against sections of their fan base or the
public who attempt to co opt their names for political
(26:34):
or personal gain.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
I mean like maybe Kaitlyn's just a maybe she's a
Taylor Swift fan, maybe she also wants to vote for Kamala.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
But the way that.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Conservatives have rallied around Kaitlyn Clark like so hard, you know,
because going back to like what it means for white womanhood,
It's just like they have such a parasocial relationship with her,
the same way that a lot of Taylor Swift fans
have a parisocial relationship with her, you know, where they
(27:06):
project all of their opinions and desires onto these people
they don't know. And so like Kaitlin Clark doing something
as I think innocuous is parting a photo on Instagram
where Taylor is holding a cat and making an endorsement
of Gamala as a childless cat lady herself.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
I don't know what Kaitlin was thinking, but I don't
think she needed to like apologize or take it back.
It should be about the basketball.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You know.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
That's what these women are like putting their all into,
is the game. And the fact that the WNBA is
like it's like peak popularity right now and is possible.
I mean, it's popularity is probably only going to grow
even more. I think that's amazing. I think it's awesome
(28:00):
that we're seeing like such a broad spectrum of like
like genders as well in the WNBA, just like a
bunch of really strong women who are just like I
don't know, showing us that there's so many different ways
to be a woman and like to be in your
power and be at the top of your game. And
(28:25):
what's so sad to me is the way that people
use Caitlin Clark as like a stand in for their
own political beliefs and insecurities, you know, like people who
who feel like the white population is threatened, you know,
these like extremists taking her up is like their trophy.
(28:47):
And I think it's very similar to the way that
like the alt right took up Taylor Swift as their trophy,
you know, many years ago, and you had these like
alt right websites, these whites premises websites, I should say,
you know, like Daily Stormer being like, oh, Taylor Swift
is our hero, you know, and like the fact that
(29:09):
she started to take she had to take a stand politically,
I think after that because she didn't want to be
affiliated with these people, and it took it took years,
you know, and I'm sure it took a lot of
likea like it took a lot of brain racking to
figure out, Okay, how do I how do I stand
up for myself and also stand up for like the
people who be alright, is attacking you know, many of
(29:33):
whom are her fans. I think that Taylor Swift had
to take a stance. And for Caitlin Clark, I think,
you know, I just I feel for her in that
she is so talented, just objectively like extremely talented. One
of the biggest of this generation and her legacy is
(29:56):
you know, being threatened by the people who are using
her success in bad faith against black women. I think
that's so sad and I don't want that to be
part of her legacy. I don't think she does. I
feel like Angel Reese is getting an extraordinary level of hate,
(30:16):
and it's really just because it's like how people are
using the game in general in bad faith. Whatever happens
in the game, they project their politics onto it, they
project their own personal prejudices onto it. Just let these
women play ball, you know, Like, at the end of
(30:40):
the day, why can't a woman play ball?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So now it's time for me to say the uncomfortable
part out loud. The perceived rivalry has helped music and sport.
We can clearly see the financial success, but their power,
their individual power, is undeniable. When we return, with power
comes great responsibility, and we can see it in real
(31:03):
time how these women are using their power for good.
We preview episode six. Everyone watches women's sports.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
What we see constantly that is a thread throughout this
league is that these women are used to fighting for
every scrap of dignity that they have, for fighting for
the respect, for fighting for equity in every part of
what they do.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So fighting ain't nothing to them.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
Like to be a women's basketball player, I would even
limit it to basketball, To.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Be a female athlete is resistance.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
It's innate resistance in itself, and so they're used to
taking that stand.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
So you can threaten them with taking.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Something away, but they're like, we already not getting paid
what we should, so that's not doing anything to them.
So I think it's just always been part of the
league's unofficial DNA that this league stands for resistance.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
The saying that everyone watches women's sports is no longer
just a cliche. It has become a movement, a shift
in the cultural landscape. Women's sports has found its rightful
place in today's America. In this era, women are not
only playing the sport, they're commanding attention, rewriting narratives, and
standing firmly in their power. When you think about the WNBA,
(32:25):
how do they fit so perfectly at the intersection of
sports and cultures, sports and politics.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Because they have every intersection ramming against each other. So
you have a third of the league that is LGBTQ plus.
You have obviously a league of all women, so there's
a gender aspect. Then you have even more nuanced the
fact that seventy percent of the league is black women.
So you have like all these things sort of cramming
(32:52):
against each other in a way. That is, their identities
are very much a part of the story of the league.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
You can't escape.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
So yes, if there's an attack and a threat on
the LGBTQ plus community, it's an attack on the league.
If there's an attack on black women, it's an attack
on the league. If there's an attack on women, it's
an attack on the league. So that dynamic of resistance
is just there, whether people.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
Want to accept it or not.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
We're now in a generation where there are little girls
growing up to watch the WBA.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
See.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
That wasn't the case for Cheryl Swoops, that wasn't the
case for Cheryl Miller. There wasn't a case for so
many of the women who started this leader of this
league is like now in the WNBA, and the growth
of it and the fan base is multi generational, and
that's what you want to see. And I remember her
saying that like Maya Moore was her favorite player, and
it dawned on me, like, oh my god, We're finally
(33:47):
in the generation where the women playing actually grew up
watching the women they play with, like, which which is wild.
So you know, I think, you know, for her, I
hope that. I mean, she clearly understands what that means,
but I hope she understands the responsibility of that. And
I think so I think she does. Like I wasn't
(34:09):
trying to indicate that she did not like that. That's
a real thing, that's a real responsibility. And so what
it says to me that even with the upst of downs,
this league was always here to stay.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Everyone watches women's sports. I'll see y'all next week. Thanks
for listening to the making of a Rivalry The Making
of a Rivalry. Caitlin Clark Versus Angel Reese is a
Be Honest production in partnership with the Black Effect Podcast
Network in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive produced by
me Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, Produced by
(34:45):
Jock Vice Thomas, Sound designed and mastered by Dwayne Crawford.
Associate producer Olablucile Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of
the Black Effect Podcast Network in iHeart Media. Hey everybody,
if you're new to Naked Sports, well become to the podcast.
And for those who've been with us since season one,
thank you for right now. We're kicking off season four
(35:06):
with this six episode docu series that you're listening to
right now, and after that, Naked Sports will continue to
live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture for
covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA
Rookie of the Year contests. This season will be bold,
as you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
(35:30):
our show so very unique. We appreciate you for being
here and thank you all for the support. We'll talk
to you next week.
Host
Cari Champion
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